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Flyboy
August 26th, 2008, 04:39 AM
So Stargate Atlantis tried (note the "tried) to move away from the military angle of Stargate with their international expedition of scientists and so on so forth, with a civilian leader (well, four out of five aint bad), and hey, only one of the main characters is USAF.

I enjoyed it. Not quite as non-military as I expected. But a very good show.

However, I'm desperatly hoping that SGU goes back to Stargate's roots and really emphasises the military nature of the show, particularly as it seems this new concept is straying away from every other route.

Give them actual combats, instead of the old style SG1 uniforms, make sure they're camo, not black. If it must be set on an Ancient ship, let's have our characters act like professional soldiers, not like Sheppard, but like Dixon and Reynolds, and even early O'Neill.

Let's see someone like Caldwell in command, someone who's not afraid to lay down the rules and regulations. Oh and ensure everyone has a regulation hair cut (*cough* Shep *cough*).

P-90_177
August 26th, 2008, 04:48 AM
absoloutley! we definately need less of the civvies.

ciannwn
August 26th, 2008, 04:57 AM
My idea of a sensible selection for this expedition would be military plus scientists and a doctor etc. who have had military training.


Let's see someone like Caldwell in command, someone who's not afraid to lay down the rules and regulations.

Agreed. Can we also have a security officer who recognises security risks? I really wanted to hit Sheppard when he let Lavin go after learning that he'd been perusing mission reports. Who knows what else he might have been perusing while he was at it.


Give them actual combats, instead of the old style SG1 uniforms, make sure they're camo, not black.

And make it a rule that women's uniforms must fit properly rather than being one size too small in order to emphasise their feminine charms.

unluckynumber11
August 26th, 2008, 04:57 AM
i would like a more military control, i think the ioa should learn their lesson from atlantis, that they don't know what kind of enemy is out there, but i think they should have at least some civilians, scientists that are familiar with ancient tech.

Flyboy
August 26th, 2008, 05:02 AM
My idea of a sensible selection for this expedition would be military plus scientists and a doctor etc. who have had military training.



Agreed. Can we also have a security officer who recognises security risks? I really wanted to hit Sheppard when he let Lavin go after learning that he'd been perusing mission reports. Who knows what else he might have been perusing while he was at it.



And make it a rule that women's uniforms must fit properly rather than being one size too small in order to emphasise their feminine charms.
Indeed, and the doctor could very easily be a military medical officer. Like Janet was. (Who was a Captain in S1 btw).

As for the security officer, Sergeant Bates? Well I know he's NID now, but someone like him would be ideal. Someone in charge WILLING to say, "damn it the Athosians ARE a security risk!"

And a major yes on the femmy uniform. And on make up. This is a bug bear. They need to act like personnel.


EDIT:

Unlucky: I disagree about your IOA comments. The IOA have just as much a role in the SGC as Atlantis, and THAT is important. Military action must always have civilian oversight, there's evidence for this in the first Gulf War. However tactically and strategically the military cannot be micro managed. Overall objectives must be decided by civilians, but micro managing causes problems as in the first two phases of the Kosovo Air War.

ciannwn
August 26th, 2008, 05:44 AM
Indeed, and the doctor could very easily be a military medical officer. Like Janet was. (Who was a Captain in S1 btw).

I just want all the scientists and doctors to be military trained. After Rodney, Beckett, Zelenka and Keller starting out clueless I'd like a bit of a change.


As for the security officer, Sergeant Bates? Well I know he's NID now, but someone like him would be ideal. Someone in charge WILLING to say, "damn it the Athosians ARE a security risk!"

The only problem that I had with Bates is that he came across as a bit of a rigid, by the book stereotype. What I'd like to see is a security officer who used to be on an SGC team. He/she would then have the experience to know that things mightn't always be as clear cut as they seem on the surface. How could Bates be 100% certain it was an Athosian contacting the Wraith rather than one of the Atlantis humans who'd been got at by the enemy? (Human looks at something interesting. Zap! Human now conditioned to perform a certain task.:) ) If it had been me I'd have put all of the team through a thorough search and investigation.

Flyboy
August 26th, 2008, 05:55 AM
I just want all the scientists and doctors to be military trained. After Rodney, Beckett, Zelenka and Keller starting out clueless I'd like a bit of a change.



The only problem that I had with Bates is that he came across as a bit of a rigid, by the book stereotype. What I'd like to see is a security officer who used to be on an SGC team. He/she would then have the experience to know that things mightn't always be as clear cut as they seem on the surface. How could Bates be 100% certain it was an Athosian contacting the Wraith rather than one of the Atlantis humans who'd been got at by the enemy? (Human looks at something interesting. Zap! Human now conditioned to perform a certain task.:) ) If it had been me I'd have put all of the team through a thorough search and investigation.
Yeah, there's no reason they're scientist can't be military, Lt Hailey, (now most likely a Captain or a Major would be a good choice). In fact, any job can be performed by a military officer or NCO, medical, engineer, science. Hell there's no need for ANY civvies. Which would lead to some awesome scenes like in the SG movie with team interaction.


As for by the book rigid. Hey, you get a lot of those in the forces, and I think he was right. I reckon a lot of Bates' certainty came from the fact every suggestion was shot down by Shep, that sort of thing makes you argue your case more and you forget your "it could be" line and it becomes "it is". Every security concern mentioned by Bates is valid, you can NOT trust a new race of people instantly. Particularly when you invite them into your city and you suddenly put one on your team. Yet such an opinion is unpopular. Even if you HAVE had SGC experience, his statements were valid.

lunarleviathan
August 26th, 2008, 05:57 AM
I would enjoy a more military emphasis. However I still like the idea of an international force rather than just the US. I'm hopeful that their will be very very few members of the Destiny crew that aren't military.

Don't hold your breath regarding any of those characters being in the show. Highly unlikely their will be any crossover at all.

Flyboy
August 26th, 2008, 05:59 AM
I would enjoy a more military emphasis. However I still like the idea of an international force rather than just the US. I'm hopeful that their will be very very few members of the Destiny crew that aren't military.

Don't hold your breath regarding any of those characters being in the show. Highly unlikely their will be any crossover at all.
How about a UN Taskforce? International AND military.

Oka
August 26th, 2008, 06:11 AM
Yes. I would very much like if the U.S. Air Force once again was in command of Stargate. On an expeditionary mission like this a military leader is preferable. In Atlantis I could understand the idea of a civilian leader but it didn't work out well did it? Air Force Officer Carter replaced the incompetent Weir. Now Atlantis is back to a civilian leader and it's working out thus far at least.

P-90_177
August 26th, 2008, 06:14 AM
How about a UN Taskforce? International AND military.

WITH AN SAS TEAM!!! :cool:

Flyboy
August 26th, 2008, 06:14 AM
Yes. I would very much like if the U.S. Air Force once again was in command of Stargate. On an expeditionary mission like this a military leader is preferable. In Atlantis I could understand the idea of a civilian leader but it didn't work out well did it? Air Force Officer Carter replaced the incompetent Weir. Now Atlantis is back to a civilian leader and it's working out thus far at least.
Regardless of your feelings on Weir, she did well for three years. Carter (who I was initially heavily opposed to) was put into the position because she was military and a scientist, because Atlantis faced a significant military threat greater than the wraith. A threat capable of overcoming all Atlantis' defences and had the intention of full scale war. Atlantis was at war, and they wanted a military figure to fight it. Once victory was achieved, she was replaced, by the perfect civilian leader if you ask me.

Flyboy
August 26th, 2008, 06:15 AM
WITH AN SAS TEAM!!! :cool:
Nah. That kinda mission is BENEATH them. ;)

P-90_177
August 26th, 2008, 06:18 AM
Nah. That kinda mission is BENEATH them. ;)

True. Plus we don't want to make the no doubt American Hero team look bad. :P

Grinspoon
August 26th, 2008, 06:22 AM
I think a stargate show set on a ship, if it was to play up a millitary aspect, it'd be better off doing a naval type show set in space. Treat the ships as a big aircraft carrier type ship, all alone in space. Where the operations are more like a submarine or something.

You can do the whole conflict with the civilians, the scientists and the military all co-existing in the confided space.

That'd be the way to do it. I'd rather it be on an earth ship, with interiors closer to match naval vessels than futuristic star ships. Get a gritty real look to it all.

ciannwn
August 26th, 2008, 06:23 AM
Every security concern mentioned by Bates is valid, you can NOT trust a new race of people instantly. Particularly when you invite them into your city and you suddenly put one on your team. Yet such an opinion is unpopular. Even if you HAVE had SGC experience, his statements were valid.

I'm not saying that his concerns about the Athosians weren't valid. I'm guessing that the story was meant to reflect things like the British and Americans thinking that they could have 'enemy aliens' in their midst during WW2 and shipping the relevant possibilities to camps.

Where I think it fell a bit flat in SGA is that nobody, including Sheppard and Weir, wondered if any of the other team members could have been got at. After all, this wasn't WW2 - it was an expedition sent to a new galaxy after SG1 in particular had discovered that some aliens can do mind control. For me, the sensible course of action would have been to restrict the Athosians to a certain section of the city and confine the rest of the team as well so they couldn't access sensitive areas either until they'd been thoroughly checked out. Ford and Sheppard would have had to postpone their sight seeing tour in a Puddle Jumper until after the problem had been solved.

Sheppard annoyed me in this episode too because he just kept wandering around saying that Teyla had nothing to do with it. Er..how about looking for evidence to prove it?

Teyla's behaviour also comes across as a bit naive in hindsight. How could she be 100% certain that there wasn't a Wraith worshipper amongst the Athosians? Maybe she might have wondered a bit if Wraith worshippers had been invented back in Season One.:)

Grinspoon
August 26th, 2008, 07:57 AM
Anyone else when they watch series like band of brothers or generation kill think, why can't they do a sci-fi show like this?

unluckynumber11
August 26th, 2008, 08:02 AM
Anyone else when they watch series like band of brothers or generation kill think, why can't they do a sci-fi show like this?

because david howe is running the show :mckay:

g.o.d
August 26th, 2008, 08:08 AM
So Stargate Atlantis tried (note the "tried) to move away from the military angle of Stargate with their international expedition of scientists and so on so forth, with a civilian leader (well, four out of five aint bad), and hey, only one of the main characters is USAF.

I enjoyed it. Not quite as non-military as I expected. But a very good show.

However, I'm desperatly hoping that SGU goes back to Stargate's roots and really emphasises the military nature of the show, particularly as it seems this new concept is straying away from every other route.

Give them actual combats, instead of the old style SG1 uniforms, make sure they're camo, not black. If it must be set on an Ancient ship, let's have our characters act like professional soldiers, not like Sheppard, but like Dixon and Reynolds, and even early O'Neill.

Let's see someone like Caldwell in command, someone who's not afraid to lay down the rules and regulations. Oh and ensure everyone has a regulation hair cut (*cough* Shep *cough*).

I agree with you. If they need "cool" uniforms, they can have multicam + SGU really needs military command (like Dixon, Caldwell or Sumner)

Flyboy
August 26th, 2008, 08:11 AM
I'm not saying that his concerns about the Athosians weren't valid. I'm guessing that the story was meant to reflect things like the British and Americans thinking that they could have 'enemy aliens' in their midst during WW2 and shipping the relevant possibilities to camps.

Where I think it fell a bit flat in SGA is that nobody, including Sheppard and Weir, wondered if any of the other team members could have been got at. After all, this wasn't WW2 - it was an expedition sent to a new galaxy after SG1 in particular had discovered that some aliens can do mind control. For me, the sensible course of action would have been to restrict the Athosians to a certain section of the city and confine the rest of the team as well so they couldn't access sensitive areas either until they'd been thoroughly checked out. Ford and Sheppard would have had to postpone their sight seeing tour in a Puddle Jumper until after the problem had been solved.

Sheppard annoyed me in this episode too because he just kept wandering around saying that Teyla had nothing to do with it. Er..how about looking for evidence to prove it?

Teyla's behaviour also comes across as a bit naive in hindsight. How could she be 100% certain that there wasn't a Wraith worshipper amongst the Athosians? Maybe she might have wondered a bit if Wraith worshippers had been invented back in Season One.:)
Exactly, Shep was far too trusting, which is something I would not expect from a military officer. A civvy maybe, but not an officer. Shep's blatant disregard of Bates, particularly when it turned out that Bates WAS right, that it WAS something to do with the Athosians leading the Wraith to them is down right out of order. Sumner would have listened to his Sergeant, as all good officers should. Sergeants know what they're talking about. But no, personal feelings and asumptions got in the way.

It's like the episode Critical Mass, where a lot of the investigation, INCLUDING Shepard came down to "could I picture one of my men working for the trust" or "nah, he wouldnt do that" etc etc. It was a GOA'ULD, doesn't matter how nice you are, if it takes you over, thats you an enemy hostile. We were all meant to think that Kavanagh was the goa'uld, but the attitude of Weir and Shep was out of order, not once did they think sensibly.

ciannwn
August 26th, 2008, 08:56 AM
It's like the episode Critical Mass, where a lot of the investigation, INCLUDING Shepard came down to "could I picture one of my men working for the trust" or "nah, he wouldnt do that" etc etc. It was a GOA'ULD, doesn't matter how nice you are, if it takes you over, thats you an enemy hostile. We were all meant to think that Kavanagh was the goa'uld, but the attitude of Weir and Shep was out of order, not once did they think sensibly.

I've just found the relevant conversation about Cadman in the transcript.

SHEPPARD: She's one of the most trusted officers in my command -- not to mention the fact that she was stuck in your head for some time.

McKAY: Do you always have to keep bringing that up?

SHEPPARD: I bring it up because you of all people should know: she'd never do something like that.

McKAY: Well, maybe she was brainwashed, huh? The Goa'uld are very clever when it comes to things like manipulating ...

Listen to Rodney, dear. Just because Cadman hadn't been infested by a Goa'uld when she was in Rodney's head doesn't mean she that she can't be infested with one now.

Flyboy
August 26th, 2008, 09:20 AM
I've just found the relevant conversation about Cadman in the transcript.

SHEPPARD: She's one of the most trusted officers in my command -- not to mention the fact that she was stuck in your head for some time.

McKAY: Do you always have to keep bringing that up?

SHEPPARD: I bring it up because you of all people should know: she'd never do something like that.

McKAY: Well, maybe she was brainwashed, huh? The Goa'uld are very clever when it comes to things like manipulating ...

Listen to Rodney, dear. Just because Cadman hadn't been infested by a Goa'uld when she was in Rodney's head doesn't mean she that she can't be infested with one now.
Exactly. I could have kicked him right then. He'd read the damn files, so he should know that anyone, up to and including Jack O'Neill and Samantha Carter has had a snake in their head at some point in time and it's possible for it to go undetected. Honestly, some military officer.

The next lot need to be less of a nump.

ciannwn
August 26th, 2008, 09:36 AM
The next lot need to be less of a nump.

Sheppard was just a sad victim of the 'characters must act like idiots for the sake of the plot' syndrome. Unless there's a radical change to the way plots are constructed in SGU the new characters will be having bouts of stupidity too.

HunGripen
August 26th, 2008, 10:24 AM
Yeah, an international military crew would be cool. About the uniforms they could wear 1.original uniforms (e.g. US military:ACU) or a new type uniform like in atlantis. I don't know if the UN could handle a misson like this, maybe NATO or a brand new military organization.

Flyboy
August 26th, 2008, 10:34 AM
Yeah, an international military crew would be cool. About the uniforms they could wear 1.original uniforms (e.g. US military:ACU) or a new type uniform like in atlantis. I don't know if the UN could handle a misson like this, maybe NATO or a brand new military organization.
UN handling it? I don't see why they couldn't. Honestly, people are so quick to refer to the UN as one entity when it's actually a lot of organisations, the Security Council, when not hampered by Russia or China, is actually quite an effective organisation, as long as UN Peacekeepers have clear ROEs.

But NATO would be a good organisation except Russia and China are not members, and yet are key players in the Gateverse. As for uniforms, I seriously vote REAL world combats.

GhostPoet
August 26th, 2008, 11:06 AM
So, I was just thinking about weapons and i'm thinking they must have to switch over to energy weapons...because they HAVE to run out of bullets eventually. So, I wonder if that means the Zats are coming back.

Flyboy
August 26th, 2008, 11:29 AM
Unfortunatly, though we'll see, who knows maybe they'll be able to receive supplies through the gate, which would work story wise, as they wouldnt have to hunt for food and such.

As far as I'm concerned, the ONLY hope for SGU is a strong military presence with a powerful leader like Caldwell.

PG15
August 26th, 2008, 11:24 PM
Looks like I'm gonna be the voice of dissent here. I feel so...endangered. ;)

I'll be blunt. I like the Atlantis characters more than the SG1 characters. I really dislike "by-the-book" military people. Sam Carter, the most by-the-book character there is, is my least favorite SG1 character. O'Neill, IMHO, didn't hit his prime until about Season 2 or 3, when the humor started coming in full swing, and even now, when he's "wacky Jack", I still love the character. Daniel and Teal'c are great characters as well. I LOVE Sheppard's character, as well as McKay and Ronon. Teyla not so much, and I think it's because she's too...good, calm and nice. Woolsey's beyond awesome though. Don't know how that worked out.

Long story short, give me flawed humans instead of perfect soldiers. Make them do emotionally-driven, stupid, stubborn, even ethically-challenged things so I can better relate to them. I really don't care about regs and regulations; give me some interesting characters instead. You want military officers? I don't want the shiny-buttoned, perfect collar...line, buzz cut that you can set a watch to, or whatever; give me the renegade, the unique, special "officers" like Sheppard, someone who aren't cookie cutter soldier.

I'm as civilian as they come, so I have no interest watching a bunch of stiff-shirts reciting the...whatever it is that military people have to recite. That's boring to me, and I can't relate to them whatsoever.

Flyboy
August 27th, 2008, 01:23 AM
Looks like I'm gonna be the voice of dissent here. I feel so...endangered. ;)

I'll be blunt. I like the Atlantis characters more than the SG1 characters. I really dislike "by-the-book" military people. Sam Carter, the most by-the-book character there is, is my least favorite SG1 character. O'Neill, IMHO, didn't hit his prime until about Season 2 or 3, when the humor started coming in full swing, and even now, when he's "wacky Jack", I still love the character. Daniel and Teal'c are great characters as well. I LOVE Sheppard's character, as well as McKay and Ronon. Teyla not so much, and I think it's because she's too...good, calm and nice. Woolsey's beyond awesome though. Don't know how that worked out.

Long story short, give me flawed humans instead of perfect soldiers. Make them do emotionally-driven, stupid, stubborn, even ethically-challenged things so I can better relate to them. I really don't care about regs and regulations; give me some interesting characters instead. You want military officers? I don't want the shiny-buttoned, perfect collar...line, buzz cut that you can set a watch to, or whatever; give me the renegade, the unique, special "officers" like Sheppard, someone who aren't cookie cutter soldier.

I'm as civilian as they come, so I have no interest watching a bunch of stiff-shirts reciting the...whatever it is that military people have to recite. That's boring to me, and I can't relate to them whatsoever.
BURN THE UNBELIEVER!




;)


I can see where you're coming from but, I also respectfully disagree. I think your point of view of what makes a by the book military officer is a little skewed. To be a good officer you don't have to be stiff and such, I would argue that up until the end of S6 (Full Circle), Jack was a very good non-stiff officer. Carter was just a military geek, you get them, NOBODY in the right mind walks into a briefing, says a one liner and then snaps out a "Captain Samantha Carter reporting SIR" with a salute. It's a cliched stereotype.

See the thing, is Officers and NCOs are human. They do make mistakes, and they do have fun. But it's when to draw the line. Take Sheppard. Shoulda had a haircut. Should have been more suspicious of EVERYONE in Critical Mass. His personality, I have no problem with. He's a pilot. Seriously, that's how pilots act. But they don't act stupidly. O'Neill just went insane if you ask me... but to begin with, he worked.

SG1 and SGA do have some prime examples of some good military personnel. Caldwell and Ellis. Both fantastic and accurate characters. Caldwell has a lot of personality, he's military, but also human, and you see his human side. Hammond and Landry both are perfect representations as well, particularly Hammond. A very human General. S1-6 O'Neill, jokey, banterish, but also serious when the time comes. Major Davis as well, although we don't see his lighter side that much unfortunatly.

Pilots when not flying sit in the crew room, making jokes over what ever is on tv, put the football on big screen projector for everyone to watch, and if there's no football on, they might put something they've downloaded on (I've seen Heroes being played before). I've seen some decide that they're going to "attack" another pilot in a playful fashion and then all hell breaks loose (in a nice way).

"Perfect soldier" does not mean starchy. It doesn't mean two dimensional "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir!" It means they think about things properly and act properly. I tell you what.

And I've just thought of another example.

Colonel Dixon's team in Heroes as the most realistic team interaction of a bunch of soldiers I have ever seen. That is reality for you. That's the sort of team I want on the show. Failing that, watch the Stargate Movie Directors Cut, particularly the intreraction between Ferretti and the rest of the men. That's the sort of stuff.

There's complaining, *****ing, sulking, banter, jokes, and when the time comes seriousness.

ciannwn
August 27th, 2008, 02:41 AM
I really dislike "by-the-book" military people. Sam Carter, the most by-the-book character there is, is my least favorite SG1 character.

I've never thought of Sam as being a stereotypical 'by the book' military type. I've always seen her as adaptable, competent, able to keep her head in a crisis and good in combat when she needs to fight.


O'Neill, IMHO, didn't hit his prime until about Season 2 or 3, when the humor started coming in full swing, and even now, when he's "wacky Jack", I still love the character.

I think O'Neill is the best human character they've ever had in both series. He's wonderfully eccentric, has a dry wit etc. etc. but he's a first class soldier who knows that a book written for military operations on Earth isn't always useful for dealing with the unknown on alien planets.

I also like Hammond and Landry. Both of them were aware that what the politicians wanted often tended to be unrealistic because they had no experience of conditions 'out there', They took the approach of "We've been ordered to do this by the book but if you can find a way around it I'll look the other way while you get on with it."


Daniel and Teal'c are great characters as well.

I like Daniel too. Teal'c, for me, is the best alien character in both series. He's a warrior who can also be a politician when required. He did his best to blend in with Earth culture because he accepted that if he was going to live on Earth he'd have to do things their way. He never stopped being a Jaffa, though, as 'Talion' pointed out. It looked like he'd snapped and gone on the rampage but the end conversation with Bra'tac revealed that what he did was an honourable course of action according to the Jaffa culture. (Bra'tac is another of my favourite characters. He's a warrior who has learned wisdom through age and experience.)


I LOVE Sheppard's character,

I can't stand Sheppard and would rather have a Mitchell type on Atlantis.


as well as McKay

I can accept McKay's behaviour and personality because he's a civilian. I'd have screamed if Sam had been like that because she's an Air Force officer as well as a scientist.


and Ronon.

Sorry, but I've always seen Ronon's main role on the show as being the 'the mean, moody and hot guy with a big gun'. I thought the best bits of 'Sateda' were the scenes revealing some of Ronon's past. For me, the rest of it was just an excuse for him to look mean, moody and hot as he disposed of supposedly hard to kill Wraith with his big gun. If I was meant to be impressed by male strength and power I was definitely impressed by the Wraith hive leader even though he wasn't hot because I was thinking "Wow - he's awesome".


Teyla not so much,

I like Teyla. She's a warrior with intelligence and diplomatic skills. I've always seen her as ending up like a female version of Brat'ac in around 30 or so years time.


and I think it's because she's too...good, calm and nice.

If I was going to pick a group of warriors I'd go for people like Teyla, Teal'c and Bra'tac A calm warrior is likely to be good at tactics and strategy. Berserker types are useful if you need 'shock troops' but a bit of a liability the rest of the time. The only kind of berserker I'd want is a warrior who had learned a technique for working himself/herself into a battle frenzy so this state was optional, not automatic.


Woolsey's beyond awesome though. Don't know how that worked out.

I've always liked Woolsey. As I'm in the UK I only got to see 'The Seed' last night. and I was very impressed with the way he handled things.


Long story short, give me flawed humans instead of perfect soldiers. Make them do emotionally-driven, stupid, stubborn, even ethically-challenged things so I can better relate to them.

Give me characters with emotions who are capable of considering such things as "I know I want to punch this guy in the face but would it be the most constructive thing to do right now?"

Stubborn as in the following definition? -

refusing to move or change one's opinion; obstinate

This, to me, conjures up the worst kind of 'by the book' military type. Refusing to give up is one thing but refusing to listen to reason or advice is another.

I certainly wouldn't want characters who never made mistakes but there's a limit to how much stupidity I can take. See previous criticisms of Sheppard in this topic.

I'd expect characters to be faced with ethically challenging situations in a series which is supposed to have some drama in it. Life isn't just black and white - there are many shades of grey in between.


I really don't care about regs and regulations; give me some interesting characters instead. You want military officers? I don't want the shiny-buttoned, perfect collar...line, buzz cut that you can set a watch to, or whatever;

Neither do I.


give me the renegade, the unique, special "officers" like Sheppard, someone who aren't cookie cutter soldier.

Give me competent soldiers who have served in SGC teams for a few years. They regard 'the book' as offering useful guidelines for many situations but when it comes to alien races and conditions on alien plants they are capable of making it up as they go along if neccessary.

Flyboy
August 27th, 2008, 02:56 AM
I've never thought of Sam as being a stereotypical 'by the book' military type. I've always seen her as adaptable, competent, able to keep her head in a crisis and good in combat when she needs to fight.



I think O'Neill is the best human character they've ever had in both series. He's wonderfully eccentric, has a dry wit etc. etc. but he's a first class soldier who knows that a book written for military operations on Earth isn't always useful for dealing with the unknown on alien planets.

I also like Hammond and Landry. Both of them were aware that what the politicians wanted often tended to be unrealistic because they had no experience of conditions 'out there', They took the approach of "We've been ordered to do this by the book but if you can find a way around it I'll look the other way while you get on with it."



I like Daniel too. Teal'c, for me, is the best alien character in both series. He's a warrior who can also be a politician when required. He did his best to blend in with Earth culture because he accepted that if he was going to live on Earth he'd have to do things their way. He never stopped being a Jaffa, though, as 'Talion' pointed out. It looked like he'd snapped and gone on the rampage but the end conversation with Bra'tac revealed that what he did was an honourable course of action according to the Jaffa culture. (Bra'tac is another of my favourite characters. He's a warrior who has learned wisdom through age and experience.)



I can't stand Sheppard and would rather have a Mitchell type on Atlantis.



I can accept McKay's behaviour and personality because he's a civilian. I'd have screamed if Sam had been like that because she's an Air Force officer as well as a scientist.



Sorry, but I've always seen Ronon's main role on the show as being the 'the mean, moody and hot guy with a big gun'. I thought the best bits of 'Sateda' were the scenes revealing some of Ronon's past. For me, the rest of it was just an excuse for him to look mean, moody and hot as he disposed of supposedly hard to kill Wraith with his big gun. If I was meant to be impressed by male strength and power I was definitely impressed by the Wraith hive leader even though he wasn't hot because I was thinking "Wow - he's awesome".



I like Teyla. She's a warrior with intelligence and diplomatic skills. I've always seen her as ending up like a female version of Brat'ac in around 30 or so years time.



If I was going to pick a group of warriors I'd go for people like Teyla, Teal'c and Bra'tac A calm warrior is likely to be good at tactics and strategy. Berserker types are useful if you need 'shock troops' but a bit of a liability the rest of the time. The only kind of berserker I'd want is a warrior who had learned a technique for working himself/herself into a battle frenzy so this state was optional, not automatic.



I've always liked Woolsey. As I'm in the UK I only got to see 'The Seed' last night. and I was very impressed with the way he handled things.



Give me characters with emotions who are capable of considering such things as "I know I want to punch this guy in the face but would it be the most constructive thing to do right now?"

Stubborn as in the following definition? -

refusing to move or change one's opinion; obstinate

This, to me, conjures up the worst kind of 'by the book' military type. Refusing to give up is one thing but refusing to listen to reason or advice is another.

I certainly wouldn't want characters who never made mistakes but there's a limit to how much stupidity I can take. See previous criticisms of Sheppard in this topic.

I'd expect characters to be faced with ethically challenging situations in a series which is supposed to have some drama in it. Life isn't just black and white - there are many shades of grey in between.



Neither do I.



Give me competent soldiers who have served in SGC teams for a few years. They regard 'the book' as offering useful guidelines for many situations but when it comes to alien races and conditions on alien plants they are capable of making it up as they go along if neccessary.
For the record, by the book does not necessarily mean obstinate. Military officers are encouraged to think outside of the box and be adaptable.

unluckynumber11
August 27th, 2008, 03:31 AM
Looks like I'm gonna be the voice of dissent here. I feel so...endangered. ;)

I'll be blunt. I like the Atlantis characters more than the SG1 characters. I really dislike "by-the-book" military people. Sam Carter, the most by-the-book character there is, is my least favorite SG1 character. O'Neill, IMHO, didn't hit his prime until about Season 2 or 3, when the humor started coming in full swing, and even now, when he's "wacky Jack", I still love the character. Daniel and Teal'c are great characters as well. I LOVE Sheppard's character, as well as McKay and Ronon. Teyla not so much, and I think it's because she's too...good, calm and nice. Woolsey's beyond awesome though. Don't know how that worked out.

Long story short, give me flawed humans instead of perfect soldiers. Make them do emotionally-driven, stupid, stubborn, even ethically-challenged things so I can better relate to them. I really don't care about regs and regulations; give me some interesting characters instead. You want military officers? I don't want the shiny-buttoned, perfect collar...line, buzz cut that you can set a watch to, or whatever; give me the renegade, the unique, special "officers" like Sheppard, someone who aren't cookie cutter soldier.

I'm as civilian as they come, so I have no interest watching a bunch of stiff-shirts reciting the...whatever it is that military people have to recite. That's boring to me, and I can't relate to them whatsoever.

fine, then lets have the cast from "Full Metal Jacket" to be the main characters in Stargate Universe :P

Adrius
August 27th, 2008, 04:33 AM
How about a UN Taskforce? International AND military.

lolUN

Flyboy
August 27th, 2008, 07:11 AM
lolUN
Productive...

ciannwn
August 27th, 2008, 08:33 AM
For the record, by the book does not necessarily mean obstinate. Military officers are encouraged to think outside of the box and be adaptable.

Which is why I like O'Neill, Sam, Mitchell, Hammond and Landry. As I said in an earlier post the problem I had with Bates in 'Suspicion' is that he took it for granted that none of the Atlantis personnel had been got at. If he had done the sensible thing and confined the other team members, though, the Athosians wouldn't have felt insulted and left in a huff for the mainland. (Poor Bates - he was a victim of "We've got to lose the Athosians so we'll do it this way.") I liked him in 'Outcast'. He came across as highly competent in his job and he had sympathy for Ava at the end even though he was right about her being a security risk. I saw his objections to some of the suggestions as "I don't want to see her destroyed any more than you do but if you want me to go along with an alternative solution you've got to convince me that it's a safe course of action."

I'm now going back to an earlier post of yours.


Carter was just a military geek, you get them, NOBODY in the right mind walks into a briefing, says a one liner and then snaps out a "Captain Samantha Carter reporting SIR" with a salute. It's a cliched stereotype.

I winced more at the way she went about telling O'Neill that she was as tough as any man. Still, I forgive them for that because it was the first episode of a new series. If she'd carried on doing it, though, I'd have soon started throwing things at the TV screen.


SG1 and SGA do have some prime examples of some good military personnel. Caldwell and Ellis. Both fantastic and accurate characters. Caldwell has a lot of personality, he's military, but also human, and you see his human side.

I really like Caldwell particularly for how he came across in 'The Long Goodbye'. Ellis is no fool - he can recognise excuses disguised as technobabble but he's capable of accepting that the way he spoke to Rodney was out of order. He has a wonderful line in 'First Strike' -

ELLIS: We don’t need the history of your idea, Doctor. I’ll let that be a surprise when I read your autobiography. Just tell me the plan.

Both characters are capable of empathy. Caldwell understands that Weir is feeling rotten after the ugly events of 'Critical Mass' and Ellis can understand how she must be feeling after the military just turned up at took charge in 'First Strike'. He knows she doesn't like him and he doesn't like her either but he still respects her and that, to me, shows maturity.

lunarleviathan
August 27th, 2008, 08:39 AM
The UN thing could work well. They could just stick with the 5 permanent member states: US, UK, Russia, China, and France like they did back in SG-1 Season 6: Disclosure. That way there would be a good mix of different cultures. There should be a slight emphasis on US & UK troops though purely to cut down on the number of bad Russian/Chinese/French accents.

jenks
August 27th, 2008, 08:49 AM
Given the premise, I think any military 'control' is going to deteriorate pretty quickly. People are going to get pissed off with each other, and I think it will be only a matter of time before people stop caring about rank.

ciannwn
August 27th, 2008, 09:41 AM
Given the premise, I think any military 'control' is going to deteriorate pretty quickly. People are going to get pissed off with each other, and I think it will be only a matter of time before people stop caring about rank.

This doesn't sound a good recipe for survival.

jenks
August 27th, 2008, 09:43 AM
This doesn't sound a good recipe for survival.

Good recipe for entertainment though :)

ciannwn
August 27th, 2008, 09:46 AM
Good recipe for entertainment though :)

One Starbuck in BSG is quite enough. I don't want an entire cast of crazy, aggressive mavericks in SGU. :(

jenks
August 27th, 2008, 09:54 AM
I don't think they'd need to be, I think normal people in that situation would reject being told what to do after a while given their situation, especially when there probably aren't that many of them, not compared to the crew of the BSG anyway...

ciannwn
August 27th, 2008, 10:05 AM
I don't think they'd need to be, I think normal people in that situation would reject being told what to do after a while given their situation, especially when there probably aren't that many of them, not compared to the crew of the BSG anyway...

Even if they can't stand each other they'll still need to have some system of organisation or they'll never get anything done.

GhostPoet
August 27th, 2008, 11:15 AM
Going in a strong military group would be great. Since they are gonna be on their own with no Atlantis or Stargate command to keep in contact with they need to keep a strong military structure to make sure everyone is at their peak at all times. Obviously not TOO rigid or else the stress of the possibility of never going home would lead to a lot of dangerous personalities.

PG15
August 27th, 2008, 02:14 PM
I think your point of view of what makes a by the book military officer is a little skewed.

And reading over yours and ciannwn's posts, I think you're right here. I guess I was just influence by the media stereotype and what have you. If by military you mean people like Jack, Hammond, Landry, Caldwell, Ellis, etc. then I'm all for it! Heck, our family's closest friend was a Major in the US Airforce, and he's probably the least "starchy shirt" guy I've ever known. I really should've thought this through.

Thanks guys! I approve of this thread. :D

And I loved Col. Dixon's team!

Pepermint Jaffa
August 27th, 2008, 03:26 PM
The following quote from Brad Wright makes me think there will be some civilians.

In Universe, we plan to keep those elements that have made the franchise a success, such as adventure and humor, while breaking new ground in the relationships between mostly young and desperate explorers, thrust together and far from home.

Doesn't mean they still can't play up the military angle though. I hope the leader is military...that's for sure.


And I loved Col. Dixon's team!

Right on!!

Lt.Col.Errandboy
August 27th, 2008, 08:28 PM
Doesn't mean they still can't play up the military angle though. I hope the leader is military...that's for sure.


As long as it doesn't stretch credibility with a military "leader" who's 20 years old...:rolleyes:

ciannwn
August 27th, 2008, 11:29 PM
The following quote from Brad Wright makes me think there will be some civilians.

In Universe, we plan to keep those elements that have made the franchise a success, such as adventure and humor, while breaking new ground in the relationships between mostly young and desperate explorers, thrust together and far from home.

I'm quite happy with the idea of a few civilians as long as it doesn't turn out to be the SGA cliche of them being sent into the unknown without any basic survival training or being taught how to use a gun. I don't expect them to have had combat experience or not be scared but it would be nice if individuals have different ways of expressing fear rather than them all whining and complaining like Beckett, Rodney and Keller.


As long as it doesn't stretch credibility with a military "leader" who's 20 years old..

And all the experts in various scientific fields being prodigies with poor social skills.

Flyboy
August 28th, 2008, 03:38 AM
And reading over yours and ciannwn's posts, I think you're right here. I guess I was just influence by the media stereotype and what have you. If by military you mean people like Jack, Hammond, Landry, Caldwell, Ellis, etc. then I'm all for it! Heck, our family's closest friend was a Major in the US Airforce, and he's probably the least "starchy shirt" guy I've ever known. I really should've thought this through.

Thanks guys! I approve of this thread. :D

And I loved Col. Dixon's team!

Heh. I most certainly do mean those characters you mentioned. O'Neill, Shep and Mitchell are very accurate representations of pilots, particularly when it comes to immaturity ;). Bates I think was how a real NCO would react when his CO was being a complete idiot (which needs to be fixed in future), and Hammond, Landry, Caldwell, and Dixon etc are good representations of non-pilot officers or pilots who haven't been flying for a good while. Anyway, it's always nice to destroy false stereo types! ;) Glad you approve of the thread now. Colonel Dixon's team did indeed kick ass. I wish we could have seen more of them.




As long as it doesn't stretch credibility with a military "leader" who's 20 years old..

Well that depends. In a regular military team you might for example see the Officer Commanding being a 28 year old Captain or Major, with the 2IC being a 20 year old Leiutenant., beneath them though, you could have a forty year old Sergeant who was serving whilst the Lt was just a baby. (Tis a silly system sometimes). Now assuming the Major was killed, then the Lt would become the leader of the unit, regardless of his inexperience. So it COULD have credibility, it would just be VERY VERY stupid and probably very dangerous. It's a bit like in the film "Aliens" when the Marines get their new officer who has done jack all before and does NOT know how to lead.

As long as there's a Colonel playing the typical Weir-Hammond role in the show, I wouldn't mind per se if the Officer in command of the squad was a little on the young side, because it could be explained, but the moment that his ENTIRE squad is young, that's when I sit up and say "what the hell?"

GhostPoet
August 28th, 2008, 11:08 AM
If there are a lot of sub-plots on "who's dating who"
I am so quitting stargate.

Automission
August 28th, 2008, 11:18 AM
I agree, we really need the heavy military angle brought back in. It really made the show what it was, and I feel the civilian point of view in Atlantis is what leads to soap opera style shows.
Think about it, military based, they can have stories about people being corrupt, when its civilians, they end up doing stories about babies and peoples hobbies.

thekillman
August 28th, 2008, 11:20 AM
look no matter how, SGA cant be pure civ. if there's war, there's military. me prefer:


a team leader which is a cross between oneill and sheppard. young, not too young ofcourse. great at ancient tech, likes a proper chain of command, but also isnt stupid enough to not listen to his team mates. open to suggestion, but always the first with a plan. where others hesitate, he pushes on. ofcouse not a dick.

a programm leader very much like early hammond, caldwell. nice if you know him, but doesnt mind pointing out the chain of command. crystal clear. hes a bit of a tech person, but mainly millitary.

tech guy. much like mckay, as he's realistic. however, do give him a lady to love, but have it be a bit tense. some fun. hes smart, not uber smart like carter/mckay who are fixalls[as thats boring], screws up sometimes, and sometimes admits hes wrong.

our warrior woman. warrior woman are never bad.

and annother millitary second in command woman. woman-woman and man-man and man-woman chemistry. that would be VERY nice. but keep the man-woman thing just flirty, not a stupid soap with everyone loving and liking and sleeping with everyone.


i do like the civillian aspect of SGA: we're talking real people, not a bunch of dummies running in the gateroom, waiting to be shot at. thats what i didnt like. its stupid. just add a gateroomshield. and a bunker at each side's corner facing the front of the gate. so people arent risking their lives by being cannon fodder

ciannwn
August 28th, 2008, 11:30 AM
Think about it, military based, they can have stories about people being corrupt, when its civilians, they end up doing stories about babies and peoples hobbies.

We could still have stories about people's hobbies even if they're military personnel. We learned that Shepphard loves playing golf and enjoys flattening empty beer cans against his forehead The very first episode of SG1 started with Air Force officers playing poker in the Gateroom. Lorne likes painting pictures. O'Neill is keen on fishing. :D

Col.Foley
August 28th, 2008, 11:33 AM
My thoughts:

Keep the primary team much like you have had in the past. Yes, a little more brains would be welcome from them at times. But yet, we should have human people in charge, and running things. I guess in this essense I do agree with PG15 about. People who do make mistakes, and do at times lead by emotion.

However, secondary and mission leaders I would concur about. SG has never been about the Military, but it would be an interesting concept to see the military played at a little more.

What I mean is have a Character in the Lorne, or Reynolds position. But show him a lot more. Actually make him into an almost main character so we can see the Military angle on a more routine basis.

And, I would love to see a Major Military person at the top. Not dry neccessarily, but highly motivated by the Military. This I feel will enable the Writers, and in the long run the personel on the ship to be, and do what ever they want within reason. As long as when things go to being crunch time, you have someone there that can direct these people, and get them to perform, when they have to. A real smart man.

Other things I would like to see. A little more emphasis on tactics. You really do not see the use of special forces, or Military tactics in the show when you get down to it. You see a few great examples, but a little bit more of a use would not be remiss. Especially with this concept of the show.

Combat uniforms, I would love to see these in the future. Have loved the uniforms to this point, but something different would not be remiss either.

NATO participation. If you are to have it be international, and Military, it must be NATO in my mind.

And finally, the occasional more use of heavy weapons. Sure the P-90 should still, and always be the SGs main weapon. But let us see them use anything if the mission calls for it. Of course this will depend on what they are able to take with them.

Automission
August 28th, 2008, 11:33 AM
We could still have stories about people's hobbies even if they're military personnel. We learned that Shepphard loves playing golf and enjoys flattening empty beer cans against his forehead The very first episode of SG1 started with Air Force officers playing poker in the Gateroom. Lorne likes painting pictures. O'Neill is keen on fishing. :D

Okay, Fair enough Hobby bits are good. :D But I just mean...well i don't know now. You kinda disproved me there.

Col.Foley
August 28th, 2008, 11:34 AM
We could still have stories about people's hobbies even if they're military personnel. We learned that Shepphard loves playing golf and enjoys flattening empty beer cans against his forehead The very first episode of SG1 started with Air Force officers playing poker in the Gateroom. Lorne likes painting pictures. O'Neill is keen on fishing. :DExactly.

Flyboy
August 28th, 2008, 11:39 AM
My thoughts:

Keep the primary team much like you have had in the past. Yes, a little more brains would be welcome from them at times. But yet, we should have human people in charge, and running things. I guess in this essense I do agree with PG15 about. People who do make mistakes, and do at times lead by emotion.

However, secondary and mission leaders I would concur about. SG has never been about the Military, but it would be an interesting concept to see the military played at a little more.

What I mean is have a Character in the Lorne, or Reynolds position. But show him a lot more. Actually make him into an almost main character so we can see the Military angle on a more routine basis.

And, I would love to see a Major Military person at the top. Not dry neccessarily, but highly motivated by the Military. This I feel will enable the Writers, and in the long run the personel on the ship to be, and do what ever they want within reason. As long as when things go to being crunch time, you have someone there that can direct these people, and get them to perform, when they have to. A real smart man.

Other things I would like to see. A little more emphasis on tactics. You really do not see the use of special forces, or Military tactics in the show when you get down to it. You see a few great examples, but a little bit more of a use would not be remiss. Especially with this concept of the show.

Combat uniforms, I would love to see these in the future. Have loved the uniforms to this point, but something different would not be remiss either.

NATO participation. If you are to have it be international, and Military, it must be NATO in my mind.

And finally, the occasional more use of heavy weapons. Sure the P-90 should still, and always be the SGs main weapon. But let us see them use anything if the mission calls for it. Of course this will depend on what they are able to take with them.

Umm... SG1 and the SG movie were particularly about the military.

Why do people keep insisting on believing that being military dehumanises you and strips away your sense of humour and your capabiliy to make mistakes.

Seriously, why is it so easy to forget that Jack O'Neill is military and at least in the first 6 seasons acted like it.

Col.Foley
August 28th, 2008, 11:44 AM
Umm... SG1 and the SG movie were particularly about the military.

Why do people keep insisting on believing that being military dehumanises you and strips away your sense of humour and your capabiliy to make mistakes.

Seriously, why is it so easy to forget that Jack O'Neill is military and at least in the first 6 seasons acted like it.
Damn...bad word choice................damn.
And I did not say that. I do not think that it does dehumanize you, or anyone really who is in the military. I

Lt.Col.Errandboy
August 28th, 2008, 07:39 PM
If there are a lot of sub-plots on "who's dating who"
I am so quitting stargate.

ye gods - if it becomes less about a SPACEship & more about RELATIONships....I'm OUTA here!!

Keep it ship-free! (can you tell I am so NOT a 'shipper????) :lol:

GhostPoet
August 29th, 2008, 10:56 AM
look no matter how, SGA cant be pure civ. if there's war, there's military. me prefer:


a team leader which is a cross between oneill and sheppard. young, not too young ofcourse. great at ancient tech, likes a proper chain of command, but also isnt stupid enough to not listen to his team mates. open to suggestion, but always the first with a plan. where others hesitate, he pushes on. ofcouse not a dick.

a programm leader very much like early hammond, caldwell. nice if you know him, but doesnt mind pointing out the chain of command. crystal clear. hes a bit of a tech person, but mainly millitary.

tech guy. much like mckay, as he's realistic. however, do give him a lady to love, but have it be a bit tense. some fun. hes smart, not uber smart like carter/mckay who are fixalls[as thats boring], screws up sometimes, and sometimes admits hes wrong.

our warrior woman. warrior woman are never bad.

and annother millitary second in command woman. woman-woman and man-man and man-woman chemistry. that would be VERY nice. but keep the man-woman thing just flirty, not a stupid soap with everyone loving and liking and sleeping with everyone.


i do like the civillian aspect of SGA: we're talking real people, not a bunch of dummies running in the gateroom, waiting to be shot at. thats what i didnt like. its stupid. just add a gateroomshield. and a bunker at each side's corner facing the front of the gate. so people arent risking their lives by being cannon fodder

OH! Maybe they'll find Xena frozen on the ship!! =D

Aricosaur
August 30th, 2008, 08:51 AM
If there are a lot of sub-plots on "who's dating who"
I am so quitting stargate.


ye gods - if it becomes less about a SPACEship & more about RELATIONships....I'm OUTA here!!

Keep it ship-free! (can you tell I am so NOT a 'shipper????) :lol:

I'll third that.

Cameron Mitchel
August 30th, 2008, 03:10 PM
I would like a more military-centered show. As Flying Officer Bennett said, Sheppard, Carter, pretty much all of the military characters have for the most part acted just like civilians. And their performance offworld was subpar, even though they always managed to win every situation.

I do believe a start to making the show more military centered would be to include some of the other branches from the U.S. and other nations.

BeccaBeez
August 30th, 2008, 03:30 PM
I hope the military aspect is emphasised in SGU. It would be great to have a joint force as well...

Cheystar
August 30th, 2008, 04:08 PM
I'd like to see it stay a bit more military based too.

Flyboy
September 1st, 2008, 06:45 AM
Good to hear. Unless we get an Atlantis style expedition, which I doubt, I imagine whatever team gets stuck there will be an advance military recon unit, so here's hoping. Whatever contingient is used, they make them realistic.

Ltcolshepjumper
September 1st, 2008, 08:32 AM
Good to hear. Unless we get an Atlantis style expedition, which I doubt, I imagine whatever team gets stuck there will be an advance military recon unit, so here's hoping. Whatever contingient is used, they make them realistic.

Realism is needed. Not even the civilian IOA was realistic enough. And yes, the show does need to be a little more serious. And the writers need to take more risks with the plot, not with characters (that was SGA's problem- instead of axing characters for "excitement/shake-up" they needed to do something with their numerous arcs, such as the Hybrid, Asuran, and Genii arcs. All three were ended poorly). And, I think it would be good if SGU had more of a balance between military and civilian. SG-1 was mostly a not-so-good reflection of a structured military command, and SGA a bad reflection of a completely unstructured(is that a word?) civilian command. If SGU could have a correct portrayal of a balanced civilian and military unit, there wouldn't be a problem.

Flyboy
September 1st, 2008, 08:33 AM
Realism is needed. Not even the civilian IOA was realistic enough. And yes, the show does need to be a little more serious. And the writers need to take more risks with the plot, not with characters (that was SGA's problem- instead of axing characters for "excitement/shake-up" they needed to do something with their numerous arcs, such as the Hybrid, Asuran, and Genii arcs. All three were ended poorly). And, I think it would be good if SGU had more of a balance between military and civilian. SG-1 was mostly a not-so-good reflection of a structured military command, and SGA a bad reflection of a completely unstructured(is that a word?) civilian command. If SGU could have a correct portrayal of a balanced civilian and military unit, there wouldn't be a problem.
If there ARE civvies, there'd have to be some typical military-civilian agro.

GhostPoet
September 2nd, 2008, 11:23 AM
What would make the most sense is that since they find this ship...they have to obviously send in a few squads of soldiers to secure and patrol the ship while scientists examine the ship (since it's so large, they would expect to be there for a few months) they would also need medical doctors and any other essential units for extended studies.

So I think in essence...there would be a little of everything there...but the largest amount would be soldiers.

Asgard4eva
October 18th, 2009, 11:56 PM
discipline is terrible, who were to the 2 people that were allowed go AWOL through another gate and they would have lost 3 had a Marine not shot one of his own people in the arm

The Mighty 6 platoon
October 19th, 2009, 12:33 AM
discipline is terrible, who were to the 2 people that were allowed go AWOL through another gate and they would have lost 3 had a Marine not shot one of his own people in the arm

Yes and two of those people were civilians and the marine was doing it because he disagreed with a civilian scientist. Discpline problme and people disobeying orders happens in the military, take it from someone whos in it, Stargate shows have had plenty of people disobeying orders, before it just tneded to be the heroes of the show rather than other characters.