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NIKIN
August 23rd, 2008, 02:42 AM
I am confused about this episode, they say they couldn't shut down the gate due to pressure, well we know the water shouldn't go through because of what happened in Watergate, they theorised that there was a thing built in to hold back the water. I know that water turned out the be alive and controlled itself, but it makes sense that they would have such a thing built in and if that water wanted itself back so badly it could have flooded the russian base easily.

So why was there a risk of Atlantis being flooded? Even if some water had made it through with the team, Atlantis has filled with water before and it can just drain out, I mean they are at the top of a tower, plenty of space for it to go.


What was the real risk?

metabog
August 23rd, 2008, 03:17 AM
The Watergate wormhole was outgoing...

AscendedThor
August 23rd, 2008, 03:27 AM
I think this episode proves that water would in fact go through.
in Watergate that was not water but an organizm that looked like water and could move around. so the organizm held itself back from going through the gate.

the gates are probably programmed to automatically hold back air (to prevent air from being sucked out of a room with an active outgoing stargate) but not water because the gates were not supposed to be under water. and the gate can't guess when to hold something back and when not to.
so its official; gate only holds back air from going through.

but the wierd part about this episode was when they sat on top of the gate it didn't look like water was flowing into the gate. the water should have gone through and not rematerilalize on the other side because of the shield.

they probably simply didn't want to flood the control room and that's why they decided to wait for 38 minuets.

rushworld
August 23rd, 2008, 04:02 AM
but the wierd part about this episode was when they sat on top of the gate it didn't look like water was flowing into the gate. the water should have gone through and not rematerilalize on the other side because of the shield.

they probably simply didn't want to flood the control room and that's why they decided to wait for 38 minuets.

Wouldn't this then mean that the water would enter the gate and then just "disappear"? They could had released all the water from the valley in no time if this was the case.

I think this was just a situation where they didn't want the viewer to think too much about it because any way you do it doesn't make much sense :P

AscendedThor
August 23rd, 2008, 04:45 AM
Wouldn't this then mean that the water would enter the gate and then just "disappear"? They could had released all the water from the valley in no time if this was the case.

I think this was just a situation where they didn't want the viewer to think too much about it because any way you do it doesn't make much sense :P

the event horizon of the stargate is probably about as 'dense' as water.
the pressure that it creates is more than that of air (which is why air isn't getting sucked out through an open wormhole). people who walk through do feel the resistance of the event horizon and need to 'push' a little to get through it.
on one ocasion we saw O'Niell and Carter place a bunch of flowrs on an event horizon (when they thought Daniel was dead) and the flowers stayed on it for a while, proving that it gives resistance even to solid objects.
my guess is that it creates about the same pressure as water. so in this case because the pressure between the event horizon and the water is pretty even, most of the water isn't getting sucked into it.

Maybe they were afraid that if they swim into the stargate the stargate might not transmit them as long as it still feels pressure from the water (as if the object is not through completely) and this way they'll be gone forever the moment the stargate deactives. but they could have tested that by opening the shield in Atlantis to see if water comes out or not.
if some water comes out this would mean that the team can also come out in one piece.

Vlad
August 23rd, 2008, 09:10 AM
the event horizon of the stargate is probably about as 'dense' as water.
the pressure that it creates is more than that of air (which is why air isn't getting sucked out through an open wormhole). people who walk through do feel the resistance of the event horizon and need to 'push' a little to get through it.
on one ocasion we saw O'Niell and Carter place a bunch of flowrs on an event horizon (when they thought Daniel was dead) and the flowers stayed on it for a while, proving that it gives resistance even to solid objects.
my guess is that it creates about the same pressure as water. so in this case because the pressure between the event horizon and the water is pretty even, most of the water isn't getting sucked into it.

Maybe they were afraid that if they swim into the stargate the stargate might not transmit them as long as it still feels pressure from the water (as if the object is not through completely) and this way they'll be gone forever the moment the stargate deactives. but they could have tested that by opening the shield in Atlantis to see if water comes out or not.
if some water comes out this would mean that the team can also come out in one piece.
Well said.

tombombadil
August 23rd, 2008, 09:17 AM
the "water" in watergate, wasn't water at all. it was a wate like organism that could choose if they wanted to go through the gate.

Earthgate Ricky
August 23rd, 2008, 09:18 AM
The Watergate wormhole was outgoing...
Do we talk about....


http://www.watergate.info/napoli/061797watergate_1.jpg???

:D

Vlad
August 23rd, 2008, 09:50 AM
do we talk about....


http://www.watergate.info/napoli/061797watergate_1.jpg???

:d

hahahahahaha
nice!

EternalAlteran
August 23rd, 2008, 10:04 AM
The Watergate was not in actual water, but rather water like beings. They had the ability to emit energy that the gate absorbed. Otherwise it would have shut down after 38 minutes. They had the ability to increase pressure, the ability posses people and change themselves to and from a gas state.

In this situation however pressure pushes water through the gate for it's 38 period. The gate can't shut down because something is moving through the gate. I has the same effect as sending a radio wave through.

MechaThor
August 23rd, 2008, 10:12 AM
Yeah I agree with allot of the points of others.
In Watergate it was an outgoing Wormhole, so any water going into the gate would flow into nothingness.
Also that water was made from billions of little creatures, so They could of held themselves back.

Morrolan
August 23rd, 2008, 03:58 PM
Yeah I agree with allot of the points of others.
In Watergate it was an outgoing Wormhole, so any water going into the gate would flow into nothingness.
Also that water was made from billions of little creatures, so They could of held themselves back.

I think it's safe to assume that there wasn't water, but lifeforms. Why can't people accept this? Yours and others' explanations are right on!

Christopher
August 23rd, 2008, 04:23 PM
I've already theorised about this in another thread (see here: http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=8811196&postcount=17)

but to summarise, the gate is clever enough to tell if something was there effectively pressing against the event horizon before the wormhole was established, and therefore behaves towards this matter as if it was a solid object (similar to the already-mentioned theory of similar rates of resistance / surface tension). The gate only interacts with matter moving across the event horizon if 1) the matter wasn't there when the wormhole established, 2) the force of the matter coming into contact with the event horizon is a dynamic one, i.e. the water pressure I'd imagine is pretty constant, whereas someone swimming into the wormhole will not be as they are propelling themselves into the wormhole and across the event horizon).

My theory's a bit of a kludgy one when you first read it (insofar as it's more complex than the other theories), and it does mayyyyyybe go against a couple of recently-established bits of canon surrounding how they think the gate treats a constant body of matter pushing against the event horizon... But I'd like to think that (once simplified and worded a little better) my theory is the neater one, both in way it works when applied to any and all kinds of matter, and how the stargate itself works. I'm sure the gate system is still far cleverer when it comes to these kinds of odd situations than we give it credit for.

YutheGreat
August 23rd, 2008, 07:10 PM
Agreed. In watergate that not was water but actually living aliens. Simillar to the mist aliens they were alive and could control their movement.

Saquist
August 23rd, 2008, 07:16 PM
the event horizon of the stargate is probably about as 'dense' as water.
the pressure that it creates is more than that of air (which is why air isn't getting sucked out through an open wormhole). people who walk through do feel the resistance of the event horizon and need to 'push' a little to get through it.
on one ocasion we saw O'Niell and Carter place a bunch of flowrs on an event horizon (when they thought Daniel was dead) and the flowers stayed on it for a while, proving that it gives resistance even to solid objects.
my guess is that it creates about the same pressure as water. so in this case because the pressure between the event horizon and the water is pretty even, most of the water isn't getting sucked into it.

Maybe they were afraid that if they swim into the stargate the stargate might not transmit them as long as it still feels pressure from the water (as if the object is not through completely) and this way they'll be gone forever the moment the stargate deactives. but they could have tested that by opening the shield in Atlantis to see if water comes out or not.
if some water comes out this would mean that the team can also come out in one piece.


You mean that the event horizon has a surface tension like water. I recalled the same episode and I simply though that the wormhole effect pulled the the reef in.

Tupopoflungo
August 23rd, 2008, 11:37 PM
You mean that the event horizon has a surface tension like water. I recalled the same episode and I simply though that the wormhole effect pulled the the reef in.


It did...but it held for a second...

AlphaWox
August 24th, 2008, 06:08 AM
If the wormhole pulled the wreath of flowers through, then the gate could be used as a rather devious weapon. Take a Pegasus gate (Milky Way gates have moving parts that could lock up), drop it face up into the deepest part of the ocean. On Earth, that's about 7 miles. Have a cloaked jumped on the surface dial a space gate... the water should pour through the gate like a drain in the bathtub. The water will freeze, but according to Sam in Upgrades, it will flow quickly away from the gate and not freeze at the event horizon (plus in Continuum, the gate warmed up a bit). The force of the water going through will be quite enough to clear the area for more water to pour through -- the water at the bottom of the ocean would be pushed through by millions of tons of water above it, and if all the oceans on the target world are connected (like here on Earth), they could all be drained away.

Wait 38 minutes, dial again, and continue until the ocean is drained.

If the locals caught on, they'd have two options for stopping it... get the offending gate physically away from the water or take out the dialing jumper. They couldn't try to dial because no matter where they dialed (unless they happened to dial another gate under the same water pressure), the water would still pour through.

Just a theory :)

Oka
August 24th, 2008, 06:49 AM
If the wormhole pulled the wreath of flowers through, then the gate could be used as a rather devious weapon. Take a Pegasus gate (Milky Way gates have moving parts that could lock up), drop it face up into the deepest part of the ocean. On Earth, that's about 7 miles. Have a cloaked jumped on the surface dial a space gate... the water should pour through the gate like a drain in the bathtub. The water will freeze, but according to Sam in Upgrades, it will flow quickly away from the gate and not freeze at the event horizon (plus in Continuum, the gate warmed up a bit). The force of the water going through will be quite enough to clear the area for more water to pour through -- the water at the bottom of the ocean would be pushed through by millions of tons of water above it, and if all the oceans on the target world are connected (like here on Earth), they could all be drained away.

Wait 38 minutes, dial again, and continue until the ocean is drained.

If the locals caught on, they'd have two options for stopping it... get the offending gate physically away from the water or take out the dialing jumper. They couldn't try to dial because no matter where they dialed (unless they happened to dial another gate under the same water pressure), the water would still pour through.

Just a theory :)
Yeah, I just don't find it probable that water will flow freely through the gate when it's opened.

It's a retcon.

rarocks24
August 24th, 2008, 08:00 AM
If the wormhole pulled the wreath of flowers through, then the gate could be used as a rather devious weapon. Take a Pegasus gate (Milky Way gates have moving parts that could lock up), drop it face up into the deepest part of the ocean. On Earth, that's about 7 miles. Have a cloaked jumped on the surface dial a space gate... the water should pour through the gate like a drain in the bathtub. The water will freeze, but according to Sam in Upgrades, it will flow quickly away from the gate and not freeze at the event horizon (plus in Continuum, the gate warmed up a bit). The force of the water going through will be quite enough to clear the area for more water to pour through -- the water at the bottom of the ocean would be pushed through by millions of tons of water above it, and if all the oceans on the target world are connected (like here on Earth), they could all be drained away.

Wait 38 minutes, dial again, and continue until the ocean is drained.

If the locals caught on, they'd have two options for stopping it... get the offending gate physically away from the water or take out the dialing jumper. They couldn't try to dial because no matter where they dialed (unless they happened to dial another gate under the same water pressure), the water would still pour through.

Just a theory :)

Do you realize how long it would take to drain another planet's oceans? It'd be far too impractical to do. Over 70% of the Earth's surface is covered in ocean.

Zamboni
August 24th, 2008, 11:27 AM
Here's a new theory: the gates maintain pressure equilibrium until something (or someone) actively crosses the event horizon...

Basically, the gate will hold back the water until someone tries to go through the gate, at which point both the person(s) and the water will rush through and the gate will continue to be active for 38 minutes.

Of course, this doesn't quite explain why Atlantis had to wait 38 minutes... Maybe the gate didn't shut down until something goes through?

If only one of those parasite starfish things went through...

Saquist
August 24th, 2008, 04:52 PM
It did...but it held for a second...

If you look at it as though the gate were lying down then the surface tension of the event horizon gave simply because the reef was heavier than the opposite preasure of the reef. In other words it sank.


If the wormhole pulled the wreath of flowers through, then the gate could be used as a rather devious weapon. Take a Pegasus gate (Milky Way gates have moving parts that could lock up), drop it face up into the deepest part of the ocean. On Earth, that's about 7 miles. Have a cloaked jumped on the surface dial a space gate... the water should pour through the gate like a drain in the bathtub. The water will freeze, but according to Sam in Upgrades, it will flow quickly away from the gate and not freeze at the event horizon (plus in Continuum, the gate warmed up a bit). The force of the water going through will be quite enough to clear the area for more water to pour through -- the water at the bottom of the ocean would be pushed through by millions of tons of water above it, and if all the oceans on the target world are connected (like here on Earth), they could all be drained away.

Wait 38 minutes, dial again, and continue until the ocean is drained.

If the locals caught on, they'd have two options for stopping it... get the offending gate physically away from the water or take out the dialing jumper. They couldn't try to dial because no matter where they dialed (unless they happened to dial another gate under the same water pressure), the water would still pour through.

Just a theory :)

Fascinating.


Do you realize how long it would take to drain another planet's oceans? It'd be far too impractical to do. Over 70% of the Earth's surface is covered in ocean.

I'm not sure. The effect should be quite explosive Think about 38 mins of explosive decompression.

Zamboni
August 24th, 2008, 08:33 PM
I'm not sure. The effect should be quite explosive Think about 38 mins of explosive decompression.The REAL question is, will the water flow down clock wise, or counter clock wise...?

*flushes toilet*

Tee hee hee, look at it go!

Cryowolf
August 26th, 2008, 03:31 AM
two words: plothole and plotdevice.
Well that's technically 3, but still.

Zamboni
August 26th, 2008, 09:05 AM
two words: plothole and plotdevice.
Well that's technically 3, but still.
That's four words. Neither "plot hole" nor "plot device" are single words.

x303
August 27th, 2008, 04:01 AM
we actually dont know if the water will pass thru and the gate is hat intelligent. coz in watergate the water was an organism. and in this one they kept the shield up coz shep said so, it was a shep assumption we actually don't know and never have been shown or told it will happen, even carter was just speculating in watergate it hasn't been tested.

only way we'd know is if they lowered the shield and water came thru then reactivated.

might b better testing it in the MW with our iris, dial an outgoing wormhole in water have an iris on the other side thats is jus a little bit open and see if it comes thru if it does close up. minimal water damage.

Omega452
August 29th, 2008, 06:19 PM
Here's my theory.

The writers screwed up writing a bad plot device in a bad story.

edit: and yes I've been a member for 4 years with 1 post.

jenks
August 29th, 2008, 07:52 PM
Congratulations on your 100% poor post rate. :)

Omega452
August 30th, 2008, 12:06 AM
How so?

The writers clearly did not follow the Stargate lore set in watergate. It was a retcon through and through. You can justify it all you want, but in the end it was purely a mistake on their part.

And yes, the storyline was bad. Sorry. While David Hewlett's acting was superb in the episode, the storyline was still was overall poor.

When they were stranded on the planet, they should have been able to go through the Stargate - with shield down, without worry of flooding Atlantis.

jenks
August 30th, 2008, 02:01 AM
How so?

The writers clearly did not follow the Stargate lore set in watergate. It was a retcon through and through. You can justify it all you want, but in the end it was purely a mistake on their part.

And yes, the storyline was bad. Sorry. While David Hewlett's acting was superb in the episode, the storyline was still was overall poor.

When they were stranded on the planet, they should have been able to go through the Stargate - with shield down, without worry of flooding Atlantis.

Carter speculated that the water might not be able to flow through a wormhole due to some sort of gate failsafe, but this was before she found out the water was alive and could control it's form. It was only a theory of hers, we never knew for sure, it's more likely that the water just didn't want to go through the gate, so didn't.

evilspoons
September 9th, 2008, 11:15 PM
I registered here after lurking for a year or so, just so I could reply to this thread, haha.

I believe that the water WAS going through the wormhole, at least the way it was written, not necessarily the way the visual effects panned out. It was then getting annihilated at the other end by the Atlantis shield.

This sounds like it would be one way to solve flooding by global warming, provided you had a stargate, but there's a problem. As established in SG-1, when things hit the iris with enough energy, the iris absorbs the energy and eventually starts glowing hot. That matter is being left as energy instead of materializing, and it's going somewhere.

In the case of the Atlantis gate (and pretty much every established sci-fi shield convention), the shield would not heat up, but rather draw more power in order to counter this incoming energy. Redialing every time the 38 minutes ran out until the valley was clear would most likely deplete Atlantis' energy reserves.

The explanation for why they simply wouldn't risk lowering the shield and swimming through is simple... they're only sitting around for half an hour before they get a nice, warm place to sleep. In the scheme of things, that's quite a bit less important than potentially ruining your command centre.

jenMcKay
September 18th, 2008, 01:57 PM
in the big skeem of stargate dose this truly matter???
its not exackly meening of life stuff now is it????

Omega452
September 29th, 2008, 05:57 PM
Okay, do to my yearning for some good stargate episodes, I am re-watching the series, again. I am at Watergate now and :

Carter: "my research indicates that the gate has the ability to use destiny, molecular structure and the force being exerted on the event horizon to determine whether something is trying to pass through."

Feel free to watch it, it is at 31:23 of the episode.

So, although the water in watergate was a life form, the fact remains that the gate had multiple ways to determine if water wanted to come through! It is the same principle as to why air doesn't get sucked out of Atlantis when they dial a spacegate.

Thus, I return to my original statement of this being a poorly written episode that did not follow stargate lore.

SGAsgard
September 29th, 2008, 07:46 PM
Ok some one has probably siad this already but i am bored and don't have time 2 read them all..



The gate in watergate had water surrounding it all the time, in the Shrine the water had come crashing into the gate, much like the lava had dumped it's self into the gate in Inferno, the water would ahve coem through the gate and keept dumping in so the water and the pressure would keep goign and going and going till teh gate shutown after 38 mins. While in Watergate it just sat there all the time, and prob b/c of the org. as well.

JackHarkness_Hot
September 30th, 2008, 10:01 AM
As set by Carter and techlore of Stargate, water can't go through the gate on its own without momentum , i.e. unless there's force behind it like a massive flood is sweeping into the gate.

If a gate is underwater as in the gate is sitting on an ocean floor, then water isn't going into the gate's event horizon but if a massive river is diverted and heading to an open outgoing wormhole then the water is gonna go through as it has enough momentum; much like lava did at (2x19) "Inferno".