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cynatnite
August 16th, 2008, 10:18 AM
Teyla even said Elizabeth wouldn't do what she did...build a replicator body.

This replicator built herself a body and lied to them about the others.

These were things Elizabeth would never have done. This was just a replicator who either used what she knew about Elizabeth to gain some sort of sympathy from the team or she really believed she was.

This was not Elizabeth at all.

Major_Griff
August 16th, 2008, 10:23 AM
Well I think it was basically a replicator who had Weir's consciousness downloaded into it before they killed/let the real Weir die. So It wasn't really Elizabeth, but it was as much her as Michael's Beckett clone is Beckett, she just happens to not be flesh and blood.

Xaeden
August 16th, 2008, 10:25 AM
I disagree. She was Elizabeth, but not their Elizabeth. Everything she had gone through had changed her to some degree. Thus her decision making off, but she was the same old Elizabeth at her core. One can only imagine what "becoming a replicator" does to a person, nevermind all that time she spent trapped in subspace.

KindlyKeller
August 16th, 2008, 10:27 AM
Yeah, it was definitely Elizabeth. I don't think that's in dispute- at least, TPTB don't WANT us to dispute it, in my opinion.

But her time away from the human form obviously changed her.

bluealien
August 16th, 2008, 10:35 AM
Yeah, it was definitely Elizabeth. I don't think that's in dispute- at least, TPTB don't WANT us to dispute it, in my opinion.

But her time away from the human form obviously changed her.

How do you know it's Elizabeth if she is changed..nothing Fran did in the ep convinced me she was the Real Weir... all the information she had could have just have been downloaded from the real weir and we have seen the Replicators being sympathetic before.... again it doesnt mean it was the real Weir.

She put Atlantis in danger to get a body and that is meant to convince us she is the real Weir..... and she makes a sacrifice in the end .. that doenst even mean she is definitley dead but floating in space... we already saw that Fran would make sacrifices as well so how do we know that this just wasnt the residual programming of Fran that led her to sacrifice herself.
We only have her word that it is the real Weir.

KindlyKeller
August 16th, 2008, 10:38 AM
My point is just that, in my opinion, TPTB intended for us to believe it was Weir, and that she'd been slightly changed by her time as a non-human, but still herself at the core.

moomin81
August 16th, 2008, 10:50 AM
Imo it was definately Weir, its her concious within the replicator body I dont think there was any intention to deceive anyone. She lied about communicating with the others because I think she believed they were no harm, they were no harm accept for one of them who just didnt want to be stuck in a human body ... can you blame him? he is immortal as a replicator. If Atlantis goes on for another few seasons I'd be surprised if we never see replicator Weir again, they have totally left that character open to return.

SGFerrit
August 16th, 2008, 10:53 AM
It was Weir, and it was our Weir too, the original.

As I said in the main episode thread, her putting the team at risk showed that the exprience of the past year had changed her. However, the sacrafice at the end of the ep showed that, deep down, she was still the same person.

cynatnite
August 16th, 2008, 11:02 AM
My point is just that, in my opinion, TPTB intended for us to believe it was Weir, and that she'd been slightly changed by her time as a non-human, but still herself at the core.

No matter what TPTB's intention was, I do not believe it was Weir. She might have had all her memories and may have convinced herself she was....she was not Weir.

Elizabeth would never have put Atlantis in such danger. She brought them there and they were going to sink the city. Elizabeth, at her core, would not have done something like that.

This was NOT Elizabeth.

moomin81
August 16th, 2008, 11:05 AM
No matter what TPTB's intention was, I do not believe it was Weir. She might have had all her memories and may have convinced herself she was....she was not Weir.

Elizabeth would never have put Atlantis in such danger. She brought them there and they were going to sink the city. Elizabeth, at her core, would not have done something like that.

This was NOT Elizabeth.

But I dont think she believed they were going to do that at all, they were harmless apart from the one replicator. I dont think she bought them there thinking that they will harm anyone.

Briangate78
August 16th, 2008, 11:13 AM
It was Weir, and it was our Weir too, the original.

As I said in the main episode thread, her putting the team at risk showed that the exprience of the past year had changed her. However, the sacrafice at the end of the ep showed that, deep down, she was still the same person.


Yup, and Rodney's final comment was the reassurance that it was the original Weir. Such a powerful episode and it is why Atlantis is more than a 2D show like some people claim.

jenks
August 16th, 2008, 11:21 AM
It was Weir, and it was our Weir too, the original.

As I said in the main episode thread, her putting the team at risk showed that the exprience of the past year had changed her. However, the sacrafice at the end of the ep showed that, deep down, she was still the same person.

Speculation.

EternalAlteran
August 16th, 2008, 11:30 AM
Well obviously the copied her conciousness, but I think this Weir was changed by enviroment. Maybe living in terrible subspace changed her.

Amalthea
August 16th, 2008, 01:01 PM
I think it was the real Weir. All that time in subspace torture did change her, but not fundamentally. I believe she was desperate, which is why she went to Atlantis and brought her people with her. She believed in her replicator people, that they were still good, but they let her down.

I wonder, had the replicators not betrayed her, would we be questioning if it was really her?

I'm with Rodney- her sacrifice proved that she was still Elizabeth.

Prior_of_the_Ori
August 16th, 2008, 01:39 PM
Personally, I think it was Weir and if it was then the last thing Sheppard said to her would have been a horrble thing to say.

cynatnite
August 16th, 2008, 01:40 PM
I think it was the real Weir. All that time in subspace torture did change her, but not fundamentally. I believe she was desperate, which is why she went to Atlantis and brought her people with her. She believed in her replicator people, that they were still good, but they let her down.

I wonder, had the replicators not betrayed her, would we be questioning if it was really her?

I'm with Rodney- her sacrifice proved that she was still Elizabeth.

She lied to them and brought the replicators there. That was no where even close to Elizabeth. When Rodney reactivated her nanites she even said it was a mistake. I do think it's possible she thought she was Elizabeth.

As for Rodney...I think he wants it to be her. In his eyes, if Carson could come back then why not Elizabeth.

It seemed like everyone wanted it to be her except for Ronon. I don't think he ever believed for one second it was her.

moomin81
August 16th, 2008, 01:51 PM
She lied to them and brought the replicators there. That was no where even close to Elizabeth. When Rodney reactivated her nanites she even said it was a mistake. I do think it's possible she thought she was Elizabeth.

As for Rodney...I think he wants it to be her. In his eyes, if Carson could come back then why not Elizabeth.

It seemed like everyone wanted it to be her except for Ronon. I don't think he ever believed for one second it was her.

If she thought she was Weir and had all the same memorys as her doesnt that make it her? This is a weird one because "physically" its not her, but the concious is her. Physically Weir is dead but mentally that was Weir, she didnt bring the replicators there to harm anyone, but she has spent time with them and clearly didnt want to just leave them lost in subspace ... thats sounds kind of Weir like to me.

cynatnite
August 16th, 2008, 02:43 PM
If she thought she was Weir and had all the same memorys as her doesnt that make it her? This is a weird one because "physically" its not her, but the concious is her. Physically Weir is dead but mentally that was Weir, she didnt bring the replicators there to harm anyone, but she has spent time with them and clearly didnt want to just leave them lost in subspace ... thats sounds kind of Weir like to me.

How can it be Weir when she's being very 'unWeir' like? She lied to the team and brought replicators to Atlantis who were going to sink the city. The real Weir would NEVER do that. Even if she believed she was Weir...it doesn't make her Weir.

If she lied once...how can be be trusted after that?

Sorry, but that was not Elizabeth Weir.

Laura Dove
August 16th, 2008, 03:22 PM
Personally, I think it was Weir and if it was then the last thing Sheppard said to her would have been a horrble thing to say.

I'm totally with you on that. I think it was Weir, but because of her disembodied state, she couldn't concentrate properly and that's the reason why she didn't realise that all this thing could be a threat. It's like in a dream, when things are always fuzzy and you don't remember what just happened the moment before. But it was still the real her, like lightly drunk people or exceptionally tired people are still themselves even if they make mistakes they wouldn't make normally.

She was quite reminiscent of Ford, except she COULD be reasoned. Is there any questioning that enzyme-addict Ford was indeed Ford?

And I think that the only reason why she committed (almost) suicide at the end and betrayed her replicator friends is because of what Sheppard said to her. He broke her heart. :(

aldredian
August 16th, 2008, 08:41 PM
Teyla even said Elizabeth wouldn't do what she did...build a replicator body.

This replicator built herself a body and lied to them about the others.

These were things Elizabeth would never have done. This was just a replicator who either used what she knew about Elizabeth to gain some sort of sympathy from the team or she really believed she was.

This was not Elizabeth at all.

You know, some times people forget who they are. But what Shepherd said to her near the end, reminded her of who she was. You can't say someone will never act a certain way, even yourself, when they're put into a dramatic situation. Spending the rest of your eternal existence with a migraine doesn't sound much fun. I'm sure you'd find a way to put an end to it. Plus, you know the other disembodied Asurans would eventually find her whereabouts, so why not bring them to Atlantis anyway. I still think she trusted each one of them and thought they wouldn't do any harm. But they proved her wrong and so she ended what was left of the Asuran race.

And I believe they ended the show the way they did, not to leave it open to future prospects, but to bring some peace to the Weir story. She could never be accepted by her people again in her form and she didn't want to continue on as she was. It was all about her. If the show ended with them destroying them, it just wouldn't have had the same effect.

Agent_Dark
August 16th, 2008, 08:47 PM
Elizabeth would never have put Atlantis in such danger. She brought them there and they were going to sink the city. Elizabeth, at her core, would not have done something like that.

This was NOT Elizabeth.

Weir put the city in danger all the time when she was administrator.

cynatnite
August 16th, 2008, 08:59 PM
Weir put the city in danger all the time when she was administrator.

I don't recall her ever lying to the team and inviting replicators to Atlantis.

Agent_Dark
August 16th, 2008, 09:01 PM
I don't recall her ever lying to the team and inviting replicators to Atlantis.

the episode where they first met the replicators, and she kept trying to talk to them even though it was clear they didn't want to listen? Then they eventually took them prisoner and went to attack Atlantis?

cynatnite
August 16th, 2008, 09:48 PM
the episode where they first met the replicators, and she kept trying to talk to them even though it was clear they didn't want to listen? Then they eventually took them prisoner and went to attack Atlantis?

That Weir did not invite them to Atlantis. Fran/Weir did. Like you said...Weir and the team were imprisoned by Oberoth who decided to go and destroy Atlantis. That is far from an invite.

Fran/Weir lied to everyone and brought replicators to Atlantis. This is why I don't believe for one second that she is the Weir we know from before.

Agent_Dark
August 16th, 2008, 09:50 PM
That Weir did not invite them to Atlantis. Fran/Weir did. Like you said...Weir and the team were imprisoned by Oberoth who decided to go and destroy Atlantis. That is far from an invite.

Fran/Weir lied to everyone and brought replicators to Atlantis. This is why I don't believe for one second that she is the Weir we know from before.

old weir did it because she made an amateur mistake. New Weir did it deliberately. Sounds like Weir learned a thing or two since then.

cynatnite
August 16th, 2008, 10:22 PM
old weir did it because she made an amateur mistake. New Weir did it deliberately. Sounds like Weir learned a thing or two since then.

What mistake did the other Weir make? She didn't invite the replicators. She did nothing wrong.

Amalthea
August 16th, 2008, 10:34 PM
This is the second time in this show they've dealt with people who are generally good, doing something that's not exactly up to their own standards of behaviour because they are desperate. The first time was in Miller's Crossing. Henry Wallace kidnapped Jeannie in order to save his daughter. Then, John fed Wallace to Todd to save Jeannie and prevent Rodney from sacrificing himself. For both men, these were questionable acts, and while we don't know Wallace, I think it's safe to assume he didn't kidnap people in his every day life.

So, was it not really Wallace who kidnapped Jeannie and Rodney? Was it not really John who gave Wallace to Todd? The answer is no, those two individuals really did choose to do those things because they were desperate. In this case, Elizabeth was desperate to save herself and her people from a life in subspace purgatory and yes, she chose to put Atlantis in danger, wittingly or unwittingly. Does that make her not herself? Just like Wallace and John, she was just the worst version of herself in that desperate moment, but she was herself.

cynatnite
August 16th, 2008, 10:52 PM
In this case, Elizabeth was desperate to save herself and her people from a life in subspace purgatory and yes, she chose to put Atlantis in danger, wittingly or unwittingly. Does that make her not herself? Just like Wallace and John, she was just the worst version of herself in that desperate moment, but she was herself.

You make a very good point here, but I just can't agree. Everything I saw of Elizabeth before leads me to believe that she loved Atlantis enough that she would rather die than put it at risk. She also wasn't about lying to achieve her objective or anything like that.

If that was the real Elizabeth she would have been honest with everyone and they might have found a way to solve this. Lying to John, Rodney and everyone else did not help at all. They aren't idiots and they loved Elizabeth enough to attempt to do what they could for her...which might have been in a virtual environment for all of them. At least they wouldn't have been in subspace any longer.

Fran/Weir did what she wanted anyway by building herself a body, lied to everyone and brought other replicators. That is not the actions of the real Elizabeth at all.

Maybe in the end she knew she wasn't the real Weir and that's why she willingly went through the gate.

I do know this was a top-rated episode that I want to see again. :)

Vespasianus
August 16th, 2008, 11:04 PM
Besides, can't a person change? Look at Ford! That was the real Weir, but the nanites simply changed her, shifted her judgement AND she lived with the Replicators for so long they became her people. She remembered where her true origins lay when Sheppard told her she wasn't Weir anymore.

Having Weir acting like in S3 would have been a mistake IMO.

cynatnite
August 16th, 2008, 11:08 PM
Besides, can't a person change? Look at Ford! That was the real Weir, but the nanites simply changed her, shifted her judgement AND she lived with the Replicators for so long they became her people. She remembered where her true origins lay when Sheppard told her she wasn't Weir anymore.

Having Weir acting like in S3 would have been a mistake IMO.

That's entirely possible. She was changed to such a degree that it affected her at her most basic levels to where she would do what she did at Atlantis. Maybe that right there is why I don't see Weir...just someone who thinks she's Weir.

Can't have S3 Weir...I totally agree.

It could also be that Torri might come back later on down the road and we get a brand new Weir. One can hope...right? :)

Laura Dove
August 17th, 2008, 06:45 AM
There is no wrong or right here. It's points of view on what we saw in a TV show.

The point is that the writers and producers are the ones who define what is right or wrong. As long as we don't know their own opinion, it's perfectly fine to express our subjective interpretations, but stating that "No matter what TPTB's intention was, I do not believe xxx" is intrinsically a mistake. TPTB intentions are the truth regarding the show interpretation, no matter how much we dislike them.

If TPTB say "it was real Weir", then it was. All you can do is complain that the episode was poorly written and/or acted and that Weir didn't act like herself -- still, it was her.
If they say "all replicators are intrinsically evil and must be neutralised, no matter how hard they work to be nice guys" (not sure they did assess that, but I wouldn't be surprised), then I have to accept it, even though I can argue with them in hope they will change their minds for future episodes.

JohnDuh
August 17th, 2008, 07:16 AM
Teyla even said Elizabeth wouldn't do what she did...build a replicator body.


What does she know.

BuggyMan
August 17th, 2008, 09:24 AM
No matter what TPTB's intention was, I do not believe it was Weir. She might have had all her memories and may have convinced herself she was....she was not Weir.

Elizabeth would never have put Atlantis in such danger. She brought them there and they were going to sink the city. Elizabeth, at her core, would not have done something like that.

This was NOT Elizabeth.
At least she was the last incarnation of her that we know of.

And saying she would never do that is like saying she would never make a mistake.
To my understanding she was trapped in a very unpleasant situation (possibly for eternity, aka hell), wanted to get out and misjudged one of her 'friends'. Even after that mistake was corrected and she had been given the chance to go on with her plan she didn't want to risk Atlantis' safety again.

That sounds very much like your definition of the real Weir, doesn't it?



Everything I saw of Elizabeth before leads me to believe that she loved Atlantis enough that she would rather die than put it at risk.

Strange, I thought she did that at the end.

cynatnite
August 17th, 2008, 12:27 PM
The point is that the writers and producers are the ones who define what is right or wrong. As long as we don't know their own opinion, it's perfectly fine to express our subjective interpretations, but stating that "No matter what TPTB's intention was, I do not believe xxx" is intrinsically a mistake. TPTB intentions are the truth regarding the show interpretation, no matter how much we dislike them.

If TPTB say "it was real Weir", then it was. All you can do is complain that the episode was poorly written and/or acted and that Weir didn't act like herself -- still, it was her.
If they say "all replicators are intrinsically evil and must be neutralised, no matter how hard they work to be nice guys" (not sure they did assess that, but I wouldn't be surprised), then I have to accept it, even though I can argue with them in hope they will change their minds for future episodes.

The only ones in the show who thought she was Weir was Rodney. No one else believed it so why is it so hard to accept that a viewer might feel the same way?

I never said the show was poorly written or acted. I loved this episode. Best one so far this season, IMO.

cynatnite
August 17th, 2008, 12:41 PM
At least she was the last incarnation of her that we know of.

And saying she would never do that is like saying she would never make a mistake.
To my understanding she was trapped in a very unpleasant situation (possibly for eternity, aka hell), wanted to get out and misjudged one of her 'friends'. Even after that mistake was corrected and she had been given the chance to go on with her plan she didn't want to risk Atlantis' safety again.

That sounds very much like your definition of the real Weir, doesn't it?


Strange, I thought she did that at the end.

She lied about the replicators and brought them to Atlantis. They were going to sink the city. The Elizabeth we knew, at her core, would NOT do that, IMO. You may think she would, but I don't. The Weir we knew loved Atlantis and the people there too much to risk their lives like that which is exactly what this Fran/Weir did.

She knew how they would react...that's why she lied. If she lied about that...what makes anyone think she didn't lie about anything else? She can't be trusted.

Now, she may think she is Elizabeth or maybe she wants to emulate her, but she's not Elizabeth. No one else, except for Rodney, believed she was the real Weir.

Her willingness to redeem herself by stepping through the gate really doesn't prove that she is Elizabeth.

What I'm surprised at here is that people want someone who lied and put Atlantis in danger to be the real Elizabeth.

cynatnite
August 17th, 2008, 02:12 PM
You still don't reply to the point. You said "No matter what TPTB's intention was, I do not believe...", which means that you consider you know better than the people who actually create the story in the first place.

Now, regarding the in-show events, at least Sheppard did believe it was Weir in the end.

It means that I don't share the same views as the writers. That's what I meant when I said it.

Oh, and I read Joe M's blog earlier today and he said this:


To be honest, a year ago I held that the real Elizabeth Weir was still alive. Paul felt that the replicators would have had no reason to keep her around and insisted that Oberoth would have ordered her killed after Lifeline. I disagreed. Why kill her when you can keep her in stasis and possibly make use of her at a later date? Since the production of Ghost in the Machine however, Iíve come around to accept the logic of Paulís argument.

That should put to rest what TPTB think.

Shepard told Fran/Weir that Elizabeth Weir wouldn't do what she did. When she went through the gate there was no way of knowing if he still believed that or not. Rodney was the only one who voiced it.

Laura Dove
August 17th, 2008, 02:35 PM
It means that I don't share the same views as the writers. That's what I meant when I said it.

Except they are the ones who write the show, not you. As such, they are the only ones who can say what is true or not.


Oh, and I read Joe M's blog earlier today and he said this:
That should put to rest what TPTB think.

So what they think is relevant when they agree with your interpretation, but not if they contradict you?

As for the quote itself, it is rather unclear. Do JM consider that turning her into a full replicator is killing her? Or did things happen differently from what she claims, maybe she was created later and some part of the original Weir consciousness was uploaded into her? She herself believe she is Weir, and she has a lot of her actual traits.


Shepard told Fran/Weir that Elizabeth Weir wouldn't do what she did. When she went through the gate there was no way of knowing if he still believed that or not. Rodney was the only one who voiced it.

Acting is important too, you know. Sheppard's facial expressions are rather clear.

Jackie
August 17th, 2008, 02:58 PM
Teyla even said Elizabeth wouldn't do what she did...build a replicator body.

This replicator built herself a body and lied to them about the others.

These were things Elizabeth would never have done. This was just a replicator who either used what she knew about Elizabeth to gain some sort of sympathy from the team or she really believed she was.

This was not Elizabeth at all.


To me the ep was so poorly written, executed and staged that I find it hard to believe that repi fran was weir too. I can't help but wonder if some time down the line tptb decide..."OMG we killed Kenny!" and decide to undo this autrocity they call entertainment.

if tptb were to bring back the "real" wier it would have to be TH playing her for me and she couldn't be a replicator, clone, AU, anything like that.

I don't ever expect the current tptb tyo do such an act for it would be too difficult for them to come up with a good plot to bring her back. I have no faith in JM's ability as a writer. However, as a food critic I'm sure he's rather competant.

IMO...it wasn't really weir either but at the same time I will not replace writer's inntention with my own interpitation.

Quiet frankly I have viewed SGA as an alternate reality since the lame way tptb killed off beckett.

The only correction I as a fan can do...for myself...is write a fan fic.

cynatnite
August 17th, 2008, 03:03 PM
Quiet frankly I have viewed SGA as an alternate reality since the lame way tptb killed off beckett.

The only correction I as a fan can do...for myself...is write a fan fic.

I've often wondered if other folks had a difficult time watching season three after what happened to Beckett prior to the episode 'Sunday'. There are times I've watched an episode and I think, 'That never happened to clone Beckett' and almost seems pointless to watch. It's weird.

Jackie
August 17th, 2008, 03:10 PM
I've often wondered if other folks had a difficult time watching season three after what happened to Beckett prior to the episode 'Sunday'. There are times I've watched an episode and I think, 'That never happened to clone Beckett' and almost seems pointless to watch. It's weird.

I sent ya a PM.

aldredian
August 17th, 2008, 04:10 PM
It ought to be noted here that the Fran/Weir character did use Atlantis as a last resort. Her and her disembodied Asuran team had scourged every other technologically advanced civilization in the galaxy before coming to Atlantis for help. So whether Fran/Weir was or wasn't the original Weir, she did hold off on bringing danger to the city and would have taken any other option had it been available. I'd bet she had to convince the rest of her team on not coming to the city for they would have known that Atlantis had the technology to make bodies for them. So there are a couple points to Fran/Weir as being like human Weir.

PG15
August 17th, 2008, 04:42 PM
IMHO that was Elizabeth; she's just had to share her mind with the consiousness of billions of replicators, and then with 8 of them. Either way, she wasn't alone in determining her decisions, resulting in her "un-Elizabeth-like" behavior in the episode. Still, that part of her, the part that made her Elizabeth, was still there and came out on top at the end.

cynatnite
August 17th, 2008, 05:44 PM
Except they are the ones who write the show, not you. As such, they are the only ones who can say what is true or not.

I am allowed an opinion about what I see on TV and it does NOT have to be the same as everyone else...including the writers. Since when is a fan required to be in lockstep?


So what they think is relevant when they agree with your interpretation, but not if they contradict you?

I'm not telling people they have to have the SAME opinions as everyone else including the writers. I will not tell anyone their opinion is less valid because it doesn't go with the majority.


As for the quote itself, it is rather unclear. Do JM consider that turning her into a full replicator is killing her? Or did things happen differently from what she claims, maybe she was created later and some part of the original Weir consciousness was uploaded into her? She herself believe she is Weir, and she has a lot of her actual traits.

Her physical body died. That's what he's saying. As far as consciousness goes...I think that's debatable. It's a good argument that could be made for her being the Weir we knew, but considering that I feel her behavior and lying was very un-Weir like I would disagree.

I have said in previous posts that it is entirely possible she really believes she is Weir. She does possess certain traits, but where it mattered, IMO....she wasn't. As I said she lied to everyone and brought replicators to Atlantis who were intent on destroying the city if they didn't get their way. If this Fran/Weir replicator lied before...how can anyone know if she's told the truth about anything else?

In the end she did do the right thing, but it doesn't make her Weir, IMO.


Acting is important too, you know. Sheppard's facial expressions are rather clear.

Facial expressions are also open to interpretation. It's easy to want to believe that was Weir, but given what she did...nope, not for me. She was not the Weir I was a fan of in previous seasons. What I don't understand is why people are wanting this to be Weir after the lying and putting Atlantis at risk.

The episode makes more sense to me with this being a replicator who believes she's Weir.

PG15
August 17th, 2008, 06:53 PM
What I don't understand is why people are wanting this to be Weir after the lying and putting Atlantis at risk.


Well, besides the fact that we can come up with reasons/excuses on why she'd still be our Weir while also doing those things...I for one just want the original Weir to be alive, somewhere.

cynatnite
August 17th, 2008, 07:22 PM
Well, besides the fact that we can come up with reasons/excuses on why she'd still be our Weir while also doing those things...I for one just want the original Weir to be alive, somewhere.

I think it's entirely possible she still is. Maybe the group of replicators who were wanting to ascend found a way to save her life and tricked the rest of them into thinking she had died. I think there are a lot of ways that could have come about. This is the second form of Elizabeth we've been shown so the possibilities are endless. :)

EdenSG
August 17th, 2008, 07:32 PM
I wonder, does it have to all or nothing?

She wasnít Weir in flesh and blood but a person is more than flesh and blood. I didnít see repliWeir as the real flesh and blood Weir but I think there was a part of the real Elizabeth Weir there. I think the real Elizabethís consciousness was there Ė along with the influences of and pieces of the Asurans. At the beginning she seemed to do things that were somewhat un-Weir like but under the circumstances, what she had been thru, it seems understandable. On the other hand I think the fact that she desperately wanted to help the Asurans regain their bodies, to end there miserable existence in subspace was very Weir like. In the end, I think the part that made Weir Weir got through and when she made the decision to take her and the other Asurans through the space gate to insure the safety of Atlantis and the expedition she was as very much the real Elizabeth as she could be.

Vis Uban
August 17th, 2008, 07:53 PM
Honestly, I never even considered that it couldn't possibly be Weir, as some think, when I saw the episode. I just don't think that the consciousness, or the essence of Weir, would just vanish because her mind was inside a Replicator body. Replicators are themselves sentient, so I don't they would have a problem housing a human consciousness.

Platschu
August 18th, 2008, 03:37 PM
They should visit Harlan in MW galaxy, where he can creates at least an android body for Weir's mind. But I think they have forgotten this opportunity. Maybe he died without the robot SG-1 and the whole planet is collapsed. :(

Or maybe they can ask politely Michael to clone a new one from a DNA sample. ;)

jelgate
August 18th, 2008, 04:06 PM
I think Harlan is way dead. Without the clone SG1, its next to impossible to run his factory

Saquist
August 18th, 2008, 05:03 PM
I wonder, does it have to all or nothing?

She wasnít Weir in flesh and blood but a person is more than flesh and blood. I didnít see repliWeir as the real flesh and blood Weir but I think there was a part of the real Elizabeth Weir there. I think the real Elizabethís consciousness was there Ė along with the influences of and pieces of the Asurans. At the beginning she seemed to do things that were somewhat un-Weir like but under the circumstances, what she had been thru, it seems understandable. On the other hand I think the fact that she desperately wanted to help the Asurans regain their bodies, to end there miserable existence in subspace was very Weir like. In the end, I think the part that made Weir Weir got through and when she made the decision to take her and the other Asurans through the space gate to insure the safety of Atlantis and the expedition she was as very much the real Elizabeth as she could be.


Humans are not more than the sum of their parts. We are flesh and blood and that supports a chemistry that creates consciousness. We are biological machines. We generate an electrical field from a blood stream laced with the iron element. Our synapses fire impulses of information.

All that can be reproduced if one has a fine touch of energy conversion or matter manipulation. Right now both are clearly out of our abilities.

GhostPoet
August 19th, 2008, 12:01 PM
I don't think it was her. I think it was a version OF her...her memories and what not. But when the flesha nd blood was gone, it ceased to be her because she couldn't experience all the aspects of being human that the original Weir could. This Weir would not know the same pains in the physical sense or the same sense of mental growth that the real Weir would experience had she kept on living.

Alipeeps
August 19th, 2008, 12:16 PM
No matter what TPTB's intention was, I do not believe it was Weir. She might have had all her memories and may have convinced herself she was....she was not Weir.

Elizabeth would never have put Atlantis in such danger. She brought them there and they were going to sink the city. Elizabeth, at her core, would not have done something like that.

This was NOT Elizabeth.

That's rather a contradiction in terms - the FACT is that the writers wrote the episode as that being Weir. Now, you can not like that idea and you can feel that Weir would have never acted that way, but it does not alter the writers' intentions and the fact that the character (as written by the writers, directed by the director and acted by the actress (to the point that she put a lot of time into studying TH's mannerisms)) was intended to be Weir. If you, for reasons of your own preference, choose to interpret the episode differently than the writers/director/actress intended, then that's your choice - but it is no more than that... your choice and your opinion and not fact; so you can't really state as FACT that this was not Elizabeth.

marielabbott
August 19th, 2008, 12:24 PM
An interesting factual statement from JM's August 16th blog that might relate to this subject.

Marielabbott writes: ďI understand now the comment on your blog awhile back that if you ask a different producer, you will likely get a different answer to the question of whether or not Weir was alive or dead. You tried to leave some of that ambiguity in the episode. Do you think Weir is alive or dead?Ē

Answer: To be honest, a year ago I held that the real Elizabeth Weir was still alive. Paul felt that the replicators would have had no reason to keep her around and insisted that Oberoth would have ordered her killed after Lifeline. I disagreed. Why kill her when you can keep her in stasis and possibly make use of her at a later date? Since the production of Ghost in the Machine however, Iíve come around to accept the logic of Paulís argument.

P-51D Mustang
August 19th, 2008, 09:22 PM
Personally i dont think it was Weir for two reasons one she went and built herself a Replicator body and when Mckay reactivated her Nanites she said this is a bad idea she would never just go and make more full grown Replicators. And another reason it was very dicreat and no one has pointed it out when she was talking through the computer she said is John Shepard there and through out the show she either refers to him as Colonol Shepard or just Sherpard or John but she never calls him John Shepard beacuse she is supposed to refer to him by rank casue he is Military and under her command. So it was another replicator posing as Weir that just slipped up

PG15
August 19th, 2008, 09:43 PM
She called him John Sheppard in Misbegotten.

Albeit it was tongue in cheek, but still. I think Weir was just trying to be precise here.

JackandDanielGenFan
August 19th, 2008, 10:06 PM
No matter what TPTB's intention was, I do not believe it was Weir. She might have had all her memories and may have convinced herself she was....she was not Weir.

Elizabeth would never have put Atlantis in such danger. She brought them there and they were going to sink the city. Elizabeth, at her core, would not have done something like that.

This was NOT Elizabeth.

I have to admit I was torn concerning this episode, particularly at the end; that being said, I believe it was not Weir. The main issue being the lying; I simply don't believe Weir would lie to her "family" on Atlantis - no matter how desperate she was. This is especially true if her lying would endanger the city and it's inhabitants. So, although she defended Shepp:mckay::weir::teyla::beckett:ard and "sacrificed" herself at the end (which was really a punch in the gut), I can't believe Weir would lie to her family to save herself.

So, I have to side with those who don't believe it was Weir; rather, it was an entity with the knowledge of Weir - without Weir's heart and principles.

Thanks, and here's to many more seasons of Atlantis! Woohoo! :ronan::sheppard:

Inferno D
August 19th, 2008, 11:00 PM
It ought to be noted here that the Fran/Weir character did use Atlantis as a last resort. Her and her disembodied Asuran team had scourged every other technologically advanced civilization in the galaxy before coming to Atlantis for help. So whether Fran/Weir was or wasn't the original Weir, she did hold off on bringing danger to the city and would have taken any other option had it been available. I'd bet she had to convince the rest of her team on not coming to the city for they would have known that Atlantis had the technology to make bodies for them. So there are a couple points to Fran/Weir as being like human Weir.

That was what repliweir claimed, but no one is sure if it was the truth or not.

ckwongau
August 19th, 2008, 11:04 PM
Teyla even said Elizabeth wouldn't do what she did...build a replicator body.

This replicator built herself a body and lied to them about the others.

These were things Elizabeth would never have done. This was just a replicator who either used what she knew about Elizabeth to gain some sort of sympathy from the team or she really believed she was.

This was not Elizabeth at all.

Actually lying is something everybody does,And Dr weir was no siant to began with.
Remember when she led the SGA team to Atlantis, her boyfriend Simon find her video , something about i ask the president to give you clearance so you know why i left.
That was not lying but it was a video dear John letter with presidential clearance.That was cruel in some way for her to end thing like she did.
Actually puting one group of people 's priority over another, that is very Weir.

ckwongau
August 19th, 2008, 11:16 PM
When john said "you may still believe you are Weir ,but you are not" or something like that.
I think he believe that she believe she is Weir, but not the same Weir she know of or that person she once was.

remeber when Carter and RepliCarter had that little mind talk,
Real Sam said she is not her just a twisted version of Sam created by Fifth.
But RepliCarter believe she is what she is because Sam.

Sam said she dosn't want power ,but RepliCarter reply and said Everybody want power, just not many people with ability to get real power .



I think RepliWeir is the real Weir with the unrestrict abilities to get what she want, that is why she can't trust the other replicator or herself, because she know she has the abilities to get anything, that why human can't trust or co-exist with Replicator, because they are too much like human but almost without limit of their power or desire.

That is the Real Weir, just change with experience, like everyhuman does,nobody stay the same, not even by human standard, To think the old Weir would never lie is silly.
SGA team hold their friend Weir to uphold a standard that is humanly impossible.Even if Dr Weir never transform into replicator, they just want the Weir in their memories to be perfect.

Just like everybody want Sam to be perfect ,but deep down i think even Sam can't be sure she is not capable to do the things RepliCarter can do

ckwongau
August 19th, 2008, 11:24 PM
Are we arguing about Fran/RepliWeir is or is not the Real Weir, because we don't trust ReplicWeir or we hold Dr Weir to a standard so high that she is not allow to make mistake .
Everybody make mistake.
Can real Jesus even uphold what we want Jesus to be?(no offence to any christian, just an example)

Reichiru
August 23rd, 2008, 04:18 PM
I think it was her. She's been through a lot of things we haven't witnessed... she isn't going to be exactly the way she was through the run of the show.

Elizabeth has always been the type to believe there is good in everyone. It may be naive, but it's very her. She wouldn't have known the other replicator would cause such trouble because she had probably grown to trust him.

Not to mention saving John and destroying a fellow replicator says a lot about where her loyalties are. And to chose death (or at least being shut down for the time being in the vacuum of space) was something that I don't think a replicator would ever chose. Their function is to replicate... and that can't be achieved through what she chose in the end. It showed the human still within her.

And I really don't see why building herself a replicator body is so uncharacteristic. From day one we've known what a huge fangirl Elizabeth is of the city... the last thing she'd want to do is ruin it by being stuck in their computer and frying everything. She's very idealistic and probably really thought everything would work out how she hoped. But then again, she must have forgotten nothing goes right on Atlantis. haha.



And another reason it was very dicreat and no one has pointed it out when she was talking through the computer she said is John Shepard there and through out the show she either refers to him as Colonol Shepard or just Sherpard or John but she never calls him John Shepard beacuse she is supposed to refer to him by rank casue he is Military and under her command. So it was another replicator posing as Weir that just slipped up
What? By the end of her run on the show she was calling him John quite a bit. Not to mention she was no longer his superior at this point and could call him what ever she pleased.

Infinite-Possibilities
August 24th, 2008, 01:01 PM
I think it was clear that it was Elizabeth. Her experiences with the replicators left her a little different. Wouldn't you think they would?! Just 2 episodes ago Ronon joined the Wraith! That was by far a bigger out of character move, yet there was an explanation for it. Are you saying that the Wraith grew a Ronon clone in "Broken Ties"? Did Apophis then create a clone of Teal'c in "Enemies"? Was it not really Aiden Ford doing everything that Ford did in Season 2?

SMB_BOOKS
August 25th, 2008, 12:15 PM
Well, besides the fact that we can come up with reasons/excuses on why she'd still be our Weir while also doing those things...I for one just want the original Weir to be alive, somewhere.

I want that too. :)

Ellaneshka
August 26th, 2008, 07:27 PM
Its like Kes in Voyager, her experienced changed her and she became bitter and desperate.
I really liked Michelle's performance.

Quinn Mallory
August 26th, 2008, 10:59 PM
My interpretation is that it was an altered Weir that we saw. Clearly, this Weir is more concerned with the welfare of the rogue replicator than the Atlantis mission. It also had a lot stronger survival instinct (especially in the beginning) than what I would expect of Weir. With how the replicator's conciousness are grouped together, Elizabeth's conciousness likely had picked up some of the other more hostile, more self preserving replicators' minds.

Even with the planned, somewhat ambiguous ending, it was a great way to wrap up the replicator storyline, IMHO.

nx01a
September 2nd, 2008, 03:13 PM
I disagree. She was Elizabeth, but not their Elizabeth. Everything she had gone through had changed her to some degree. Thus her decision making off, but she was the same old Elizabeth at her core. One can only imagine what "becoming a replicator" does to a person, nevermind all that time she spent trapped in subspace.Thank you. That's exactly how I'm thinking about it. We can't understand what happens to a human consciousness when its uploaded into a Replicator body, much less into the chaotic hell of subspace, or having spent time in Wraith technology. Who knows how base code influence or subspace interference:P would affect her. WeirFran said that she couldn't trust herself. Her decision-making was off, but her 'core' did come out in her self-sacrifice to potentially save Atlantis from more rogue Replicators.

Rich
September 6th, 2008, 09:44 AM
You're all thinking about this too hard.

I can understand the ambiguity, but that is simply down to a botch-job on the episode. With Higginson having turned down the role, I guess the writers felt the plot should go ahead anyway. So by picking FRAN, it makes it unclear if it really is Elizabeth. Messy. Also, the fact that she's a replicator adds another confusion factor - one I'm sure the episode was always meant to have. But added to the non-Higginson Weir, it just makes it a right old muddle.

However, it was Elizabeth because the episode said it was. Right at the end when Rodney makes the comment, 'I guess we know now that it was Elizabeth'. That's how TV shows make ambiguous plot points actual plot points. It happened all the time in SG-1 when they said 'I'm really me? Are you', 'Yes'. Or 'We can do this mission without Daniel, while he's away on P3X1234 counting stones, or something'. Is he really doing that or has he actually been abducted. It's the same idea. That's all we as an audience need, as far as the writers are concerned.

The more important question was why Higginson turned the role down. My guess is because it was a terrible, awful, insulting addition to the character's storyline which served no purpose whatsoever other than to tie up what was a nifty cliffhanger from mid season four.

The Prophet
September 16th, 2008, 01:08 PM
You can't step in the same river twice.

It all depends on how you define Elizabeth; if you take a person's memory, consciousness and beliefs, and subject them to two life-altering experiences (being turned into an Asuran, then into an Energy Being); they've bound to have changed dramatically from the person you used to know.

If you know someone when you're 18, and you meet them again when they're 80, they'd obviously have changed considerably. Especially after going through the identity crisis (of being Elizabeth, but in a supressed Asuran body).

Frontastic
September 27th, 2008, 01:09 PM
Even though it did feel quite like Elizabeth, I'm still living in hope that the real one is still out there somewhere.
I couldn't understand what TPTB could have done that would make Torri not agree to do the episode but now I get it. They took massive liberties with the character. The writting for her wasn't great and at points it felt down-right disrespectful, Torri, good call. I would love to think they could write something decent for the character so she can return in the movies in a more long-term way and played by Torri. But I think shes gone for good...