PDA

View Full Version : Problems with the Ending



AscendedThor
August 16th, 2008, 03:40 AM
its understandable why she betrayed her replicator friends, because after all they did try to sink the city and kill everyone in Atlantis. so she knew they can't be trusted.

But after she fooled all the Replicator to follow her into the gate (going first and transmitting to them from the other side that it was ok) and they all ended up floating in space , the Atlantis team now knew that Weir was loyal to them and not the replicators, so why not send a Jumper to the other side to just pick up Weir.
They could then put her in the virtual reality. better than dying in the cold of space isn't it?
Also they could get more intell from her. For example she could tell them where the replicators left their ship.

jonos101
August 16th, 2008, 03:42 AM
its understandable why she betrayed her replicator friends, because after all they did try to sink the city and kill everyone in Atlantis. so she knew they can't be trusted.

But after she fooled all the Replicator to follow her into the gate (going first and transmitting to them from the other side that it was ok) and they all ended up floating in space , the Atlantis team now knew that Weir was loyal to them and not the replicators, so why not send a Jumper to the other side to just pick up Weir.
They could then put her in the virtual reality. better than dying in the cold of space isn't it?
Also they could get more intell from her. For example she could tell them where the replicators left their ship.

I actully thought of this to but I just can't work out why they didn't.

Zepro
August 16th, 2008, 03:53 AM
I have a feeling that that's how Weir herself wanted it to end. She didn't just want to betray the other replicators, she just knew that it had to end, for all of them.

blitzsnake
August 16th, 2008, 03:56 AM
Such an amazing ending.

The6thRace
August 16th, 2008, 04:33 AM
Because they already changed the opening credits once this season.

Xaeden
August 16th, 2008, 04:33 AM
It was the same thing with Ava. No matter what a replicator does to try to prove to them that they are not the bad guy, they won't allow themselves to take the risk. Weir likely couldn't build a Human body on her own and they refused to let themselves trust her so long as she was made up of nanite cells. Which is the saddest part of all, as they knew in their hearts that she was the real deal by the end of the episode, but couldn't let themselves base their decision on that. Which is even more interesting as their decisions throughout the episode ended up being made (in part) out of prejudice and fear.

As for going back so they can at least put her in a virtual reality, that is a good point, but it's probably the same thing. It was one thing to put Ava in a virtual reality because she was already right there. Going to kill her or uploading her consciousness has almost the same chance of something going wrong in general (in their minds anyway). Likewise, it was one thing to get rid of Weir by uploading her consciousness into a virtual reality when she was on Atlantis already, but now they would have to risk bringing her back and despite what they feel toward her, she's a machine and therefore they convince themselves that there are so many ways even that could go wrong. Plus, I agree with Zepro. I don't think she wanted that. Look at her reaction to when they told the other replicators they didn't plan to let her keep her body. I think she rather be dead.

senilegreen
August 16th, 2008, 04:38 AM
better than dying in the cold of space isn't it?

But the replicator bodies don't die in space... they just freeze up. This leaves plenty of opening to see these characters again.

Xaeden
August 16th, 2008, 04:50 AM
But the replicator bodies don't die in space... they just freeze up. This leaves plenty of opening to see these characters again.

Well actually it does more than that. Based on the dialogue over Niam we learned that his power levels were diminished as a result of the harsh environment/direct solar radiation and Mckay basically stated that he was almost too low on power. Although he didn't say if he was too low on power to just be useful for the situation or too low on power to continue existing. So we don't know what happens if they run out completely. But with Reese, she had to have her power supply function at less than 1% to maintain her memory. Since replicators are more advanced, it may be possible that their memories are stored no matter if they have power or not. That way they can just be powered back up in the future and regain consciousness. However, if that isn't the case it may mean they only have a short window to somehow get out of there before they suffer mental deaths (presumably if they are repowered after that they will be blank slates, which may be worse than just having them angry).

bluealien
August 16th, 2008, 05:22 AM
But the replicator bodies don't die in space... they just freeze up. This leaves plenty of opening to see these characters again.

Yeah this is why I don't really get why everyone thinks this is such a sad ending... Weir is not dead.. so what huge sacifrice did she make... if she really wanted to end it all like she said then why not do something that would permanatley kill them.

So she is just floating around space . and will turn into a popsicle... and probably some unsuspecting Ship will come by and pick them up.. and then here we go again...
The Return of The Replicators .. part ??

ussrelativity
August 16th, 2008, 06:15 AM
This ending will give me a lot to think about.

Tiradefaction
August 16th, 2008, 06:34 AM
I personally thought the ending was a wee disappointing. Not because it was ¨sad¨, but because the show sort of portrayed the replicators as inherently bad just because they are not like them. I hope we can see a change in that mentality later in the shows history.

ussrelativity
August 16th, 2008, 06:43 AM
It would seem that we are learning a new mentality of organics.

Jeff O'Connor
August 16th, 2008, 06:43 AM
Having been a fan of RDM's BSG since the miniseries, and watching characters like Athena come around and all that, I am a bit disappointed that the Asurans of the Stargate franchise are automatically determined as a threat, regardless -- but, you know, it's different environments, different scenarios, different races altogether.

This is our universe we're talking about with Stargate, unequivocally, and our approximate time, at that. With world leadership as it is, it's no real wonder the Asuran rebels would be considered too much of a threat for most circumstances, hands down. Besides, Stargate as a whole is intentionally a fair bit more 'black and white' than BSG, Blade Runner and the like when it comes to these matters. The Asurans aren't Reploids or Cylons, they're Asurans.

ussrelativity
August 16th, 2008, 06:48 AM
^ And I am glad that more people will refer to them as Asurans. It really grinds my gears that they keep calling them Replicators.

Jeff O'Connor
August 16th, 2008, 06:52 AM
^ And I am glad that more people will refer to them as Asurans. It really grinds my gears that they keep calling them Replicators.

Me too. There is quite a clear and present difference between them. I remember when Atlantis Season 3/SG-1 Season 10 were airing, and I didn't have the means to watch them, but heard spoilers and read that 'Atlantis is bringing the Replicators back for a full new arc!' my jaw dropped with disgust. That would have been pushing it; beating a dead horse, going that far anew with the Replicators. But once I managed to get my hands on the episodes and realized it was just an understandable but overdone incorrect word choice, I breathed a sigh of relief.

The Asurans might have had all sorts of 'been there, done that' in principle for the franchise, but there was uniqueness to them as well.

ussrelativity
August 16th, 2008, 06:53 AM
^ This may yet go towards my own fanfic efforts with certain interest. I really should get back on it much faster.

Jeff O'Connor
August 16th, 2008, 06:54 AM
Haha. ;)

DigiFluid
August 16th, 2008, 07:46 AM
Ah, terrific. Now we can add 'murdering POWs' to the list of the Expedition's war crimes.

Bossman
August 16th, 2008, 08:27 AM
What I don't understand is why they didn't just use the ARGs and be done with it. What, sending them to be frozen in space is more "humane"? "Oh dear, I can't shoot you, you seem like a good person and such, here, take a trip through the gate and end up in vacuum, have fun, enjoy".

Seems odd that Woolsey, Sheppard & co would be so concerned over how big a threat the Asurans are, but have no problem with leaving them out in space for anyone to find.

If this would have been real-life, I bet the Asurans would have been discovered by another advanced race, cause some havoc because they were angry and wanted payback, but ultimately stopped with great sacrifices. And then that advanced race would have come to Atlantis to whoop the expedition's bee-hinds for choosing the easy way out when taking care of their "security threats".

Such lovely irony... shame we'll never get to see it on screen.

thekillman
August 16th, 2008, 08:35 AM
you really do think they probably wouldnt have made themselves immune? all replis were immune, remember? besides, the replis did "die" humane, as they were active shortly, then went to "sleep". besides, there is no such thing as a ship picking em up, they'll be dead by then

YutheGreat
August 16th, 2008, 08:42 AM
its understandable why she betrayed her replicator friends, because after all they did try to sink the city and kill everyone in Atlantis. so she knew they can't be trusted.

But after she fooled all the Replicator to follow her into the gate (going first and transmitting to them from the other side that it was ok) and they all ended up floating in space , the Atlantis team now knew that Weir was loyal to them and not the replicators, so why not send a Jumper to the other side to just pick up Weir.
They could then put her in the virtual reality. better than dying in the cold of space isn't it?
Also they could get more intell from her. For example she could tell them where the replicators left their ship.

I have an answer for you Babylon 5 Soul Hunters. The greatest minds in the galaxy just trapped in the VR world unable to affect the real existence. Just another limbo don't you agree?

moomin81
August 16th, 2008, 10:55 AM
its understandable why she betrayed her replicator friends, because after all they did try to sink the city and kill everyone in Atlantis. so she knew they can't be trusted.

But after she fooled all the Replicator to follow her into the gate (going first and transmitting to them from the other side that it was ok) and they all ended up floating in space , the Atlantis team now knew that Weir was loyal to them and not the replicators, so why not send a Jumper to the other side to just pick up Weir.
They could then put her in the virtual reality. better than dying in the cold of space isn't it?
Also they could get more intell from her. For example she could tell them where the replicators left their ship.

I was thinking exactly the same, I cant believe for one second they would just let her remain in space. It seems totally out of character for both Rodney and John to just leave it at that dont you think? Just leave her floating out in space, for me personally this is a major flaw in this episode. For instance if the replicators could reproduce human bodies and download their concious into it (assuming she wasent lying) then why wouldnt they let her try? Is it just going to go onto the next episode and she is left floating in space and they just go on like normal? It's a really weird ending imo unless there is some follow up.

Laura Dove
August 16th, 2008, 03:52 PM
I think Weir DOESN'T want to live any longer, because of what Sheppard said to her, that she wasn't really Weir. She feels guilty because her mistakes cost lives and even put her friends into danger, and because of that, she wants to cease to exist. She tricks the other replicators with her into oblivion because she feels she can't trust them anymore.

cynatnite
August 16th, 2008, 04:34 PM
its understandable why she betrayed her replicator friends, because after all they did try to sink the city and kill everyone in Atlantis. so she knew they can't be trusted.

Repli-Weir (because this wasn't the real Weir, IMO) couldn't be trusted either. They never let their guard down with her at all...even before they knew she lied to them and brought the other replicators to Atlantis.

If she lied about them who is to say she didn't lie about anything else?

It was an ending that couldn't go any other way.

Tiradefaction
August 16th, 2008, 05:54 PM
you really do think they probably wouldnt have made themselves immune? all replis were immune, remember? besides, the replis did "die" humane, as they were active shortly, then went to "sleep". besides, there is no such thing as a ship picking em up, they'll be dead by then

That is just bizarre lol.

Lewisco
August 16th, 2008, 07:19 PM
I suppose they could go and pick up Weir. but im not going to dwell on it
besides, the ending was amazing. so emotional, so powerful. anything else added to it might have spoiled it. fantastic episode, probably the best so far this season.

Brain_Child
August 16th, 2008, 07:45 PM
I thought it was quite clear why they couldnt save Weir. Weir is not Weir anymore, she has changed. She can no longer be trusted, she has admitted to lieing to the Atlantians to save her own repli-race.

If you follow the pattern here you will see what I mean.

Weir originally was loyal to Atlantis.
But then she lied for the Asurans, ie, she became loyal to her repli-friends over Atlantis.
But finally the last scene showed she is loyal to Atlantis once again.

Her alleigance is to floppy, she cannot be trusted to not go crazy, which she even admits too. She is too much of a risk, even if it is really Weir. She cannot be brought back to Atlantis at any cost.

ph30nix
August 16th, 2008, 09:01 PM
Such an amazing ending.
it sucked... hard

General Yogi Bear
August 16th, 2008, 09:08 PM
Whatever happened to leaving no one behind. SG-1 would have never let one of their team members do what Wier did. The team (Shep.,Teyla,Mckay,Ronan) just seemed out of character. In the episodes Sateda and Search and Rescue they did everything they could to save Ronan and Teyla. And Sheppard in previous episodes would have never ordered the shooting of un-armed prisoners like he did in this episode. And Wier seemed out of character at the end too. I think she would of asked the replicators be given a second chance. It was a great episode up until the end. As a big Torri and Wier fan I just didnt think it did her character justice.

Arturis
August 16th, 2008, 09:37 PM
^ And I am glad that more people will refer to them as Asurans. It really grinds my gears that they keep calling them Replicators.

They were only ever called Asurans ONCE (and that was during "Progeny"), before Rodney figured out that they are Replicators. They have been Replicators ever since and always will be. Not trying to "grind your gears", but that's just the way that it is.

ussrelativity
August 16th, 2008, 11:54 PM
^ I prefer to call them Asurans. Simple as that.

So I suppose every self-manufacturing machine can be referred to as such?

starshineRoxie
August 17th, 2008, 10:53 AM
My thoughts on the ending:

1. Whether or not Elizabeth Weir was the real one or not, dropping the replicators off of a random space gate is a bad idea. That's just asking for more trouble down the road. We've already seen how a human form replicator can be reactivated by anyone with advanced enough technology, when Niam was reactivated in the mid cliff hanger for season 3. Assuming Elizabeth was telling the truth about other technologically advanced societies, those civilizations could very easily pick the replicators up in space and gain intel about Atlantis. :(

2. What if the Wraith picked them up in space? Who knows what would happen if the replicators with the knowledge of Atlantis got hold of the Wraith? That would have to be very bad. :(

and

3. Elizabeth may be human in spirit, but remember that none of the other replicators were ever naturally human. How do we know that no matter where they end up, they won't try to get even with Atlantis for betraying them? I think this ending means that there could be some real problems in the future for Atlantis. :(

talyn2k1
August 17th, 2008, 01:07 PM
you really do think they probably wouldnt have made themselves immune? all replis were immune, remember? besides, the replis did "die" humane, as they were active shortly, then went to "sleep". besides, there is no such thing as a ship picking em up, they'll be dead by then

They are machines and therefore will not be killed by the cold of space. They will essentially be in a form of cryogenic stasis until they get picked up or possible for eternity.

Personally, I would've preferred they'd just dialled them into a gate in orbit of a Sun, black hole, or something that would provide a definite conclusion to the story.

It just seems that PTB are doing everything they can to keep this storyline available for future use, rather than doing the right thing and ending it once and for all!

PG15
August 17th, 2008, 04:08 PM
Ah, terrific. Now we can add 'murdering POWs' to the list of the Expedition's war crimes.

Why? It was Weir's idea.

prion
August 17th, 2008, 05:34 PM
While I think the ending was better than sending them into a burning sun, it still leaves Weir's fate very ambiguous. It's not closed, and I suspect, if the writers follow up as they usually do, she'll just spend eternity out there, never to be heard of again.

I think TPTB don't want fans screaming "YOU KILLED HER!" while in this instance, well, they're in a permanent coma of sorts.

DigiFluid
August 17th, 2008, 08:26 PM
Why? It was Weir's idea.

lol it doesn't matter if the leader of the captured enemies thinks it's a good idea. As a captive themself, they get no say. It's still summary execution of prisoners who have surrendered in good faith, without trial, and thus murder.

PG15
August 17th, 2008, 09:00 PM
Oh, it's a technicality then.

DigiFluid
August 17th, 2008, 09:05 PM
Not at all. They executed POWs without trial, it's pretty black-and-white.

PG15
August 17th, 2008, 09:07 PM
I don't know. We're dealing with alien machines here. Alien machines that can withstand gun fire and throw you across the room. Are they really prisoners if they can leave whenever they feel like it?

DigiFluid
August 17th, 2008, 09:11 PM
Well considering they had surrendered (again, in good faith) and were surrounded by soldiers armed to the teeth--I'd say they were prisoners.

PG15
August 17th, 2008, 09:16 PM
But in all likely-hood the soldiers weapons wouldn't have done anything. I mean, pump 'em full of bullets and they'll eventually go down, but would they really stand there and take it? Hell no. If they want to break out they'd just sprint out of there (taking a few hits, but no where near enough to bring them down) and take down anything and anyone in their way to the gateroom.

And have they really surrendered, or are they biding their time? With humans a group of soldiers will do the job, but not with replicators. They can break out any time they want. That's the problem with applying Earth ethics to aliens. You can't just do it blindly.

I know nothing of laws of war, but if surrendering means you won't be killed, then that's pretty stupid, especially if the enemy is as strong as a replicator. Oh, what about the Wraith? If they became POWs, you can't starve them to death, right? What happens then?

General Yogi Bear
August 17th, 2008, 09:38 PM
But in all likely-hood the soldiers weapons wouldn't have done anything. I mean, pump 'em full of bullets and they'll eventually go down, but would they really stand there and take it? Hell no. If they want to break out they'd just sprint out of there (taking a few hits, but no where near enough to bring them down) and take down anything and anyone in their way to the gateroom.

And have they really surrendered, or are they biding their time? With humans a group of soldiers will do the job, but not with replicators. They can break out any time they want. That's the problem with applying Earth ethics to aliens. You can't just do it blindly.

I know nothing of laws of war, but if surrendering means you won't be killed, then that's pretty stupid, especially if the enemy is as strong as a replicator. Oh, what about the Wraith? If they became POWs, you can't starve them to death, right? What happens then?

HA! Wow. I would never want to be captured by you.

The point is these so called prisoners except for one of them were cooperating. Were they a huge potential threat? Yes. And since they can be thought of as just machines I can sort of understand why they would think it would be ok to kill them. My main problem was that they weren't 100% sure if it was fully Elizabeth or not and they just decided to let her go kill herself anyway. And Rodney had that stupid comment at the end and basically said, "Oops I guess that was really Elizabeth. Ha, oh well. Lunch anyone?" Ok, he didn't say that but the team just seemed out of character. You don't leave anyone behind period. Most people would not stand by and let their friend kill them self.

PG15
August 17th, 2008, 09:43 PM
Don't worry. As long as you're human, I'll follow the rules. ;)

Well, see, it doesn't matter if they're cooperating or not, because a threat is a threat. A typical human POW isn't a threat because he/she is obvious captured and weakened and unable to escape. Not so with a replicator. It's not just machines either. Anything that can pose this kind of absolute threat must be delt with lest the citizens suffer the consequences.

And I think you misunderstood Rodney's line. It was more of the fact that "Weir" actually sacrificed herself that convinced them that it was really Elizabeth, as that's exactly what she would've done.

As for never leaving a man behind...well, that's a nice sentiment, but I don't think it'll always work in practice. Consider how many people we've actually left behind...

General Yogi Bear
August 17th, 2008, 10:18 PM
Don't worry. As long as you're human, I'll follow the rules. ;)

Well, see, it doesn't matter if they're cooperating or not, because a threat is a threat. A typical human POW isn't a threat because he/she is obvious captured and weakened and unable to escape. Not so with a replicator. It's not just machines either. Anything that can pose this kind of absolute threat must be delt with lest the citizens suffer the consequences.

And I think you misunderstood Rodney's line. It was more of the fact that "Weir" actually sacrificed herself that convinced them that it was really Elizabeth, as that's exactly what she would've done.

As for never leaving a man behind...well, that's a nice sentiment, but I don't think it'll always work in practice. Consider how many people we've actually left behind...

Alright. Ha. Fair enough. You've sort of saved this episode for me. I was about to pretend that it didn't happen. But I still think that even if the Atlantis team thought there was a 1% chance it was Wier they would of stopped her from doing that. I guess it doesn't matter. My guess is they'll probably have Wier back next season. Or not. Ha.

Jack_Bauer
August 17th, 2008, 11:21 PM
Not at all. They executed POWs without trial, it's pretty black-and-white.

Ok, just so you know, the Replicators are technology, not humans, hell they aren;t even organisms, they aren't 'alive'. So technically they can't be murdered, just deactiviated.

It's like saying "O we can't deactivate this enemies nuclear bomb because we captured it, but it would not be humane."

A bit strecthed I'll admit, but still essentially the same things.

As Rodney said "Their consciousness is just a bunch of 1's and 0's"

DigiFluid
August 18th, 2008, 05:51 AM
That's the exact same incorrect line of thinking that turned Fifth into an insane vengeance-driven torturer/murderer. His "brain" is mechanical where mine is electrochemical but that's really irrelevant when the end result is the same--sentient consciousness.

And if we can't follow our own rules of right and wrong because our enemies happen to be a bit different than we are, I think we really cease to be the good guys. I've been saying it for a long time and I stand by it: the Expedition is guilty of numerous war crimes.

You know a show has been mis-handled when you're so disgusted and disappointed with the "good" guys that you're constantly rooting for them to lose.

Jack_Bauer
August 18th, 2008, 05:58 AM
That's the exact same incorrect line of thinking that turned Fifth into an insane vengeance-driven torturer/murderer. His "brain" is mechanical where mine is electrochemical but that's really irrelevant when the end result is the same--sentient consciousness.

And if we can't follow our own rules of right and wrong because our enemies happen to be a bit different than we are, I think we really cease to be the good guys. I've been saying it for a long time and I stand by it: the Expedition is guilty of numerous war crimes.

You know a show has been mis-handled when you're so disgusted and disappointed with the "good" guys that you're constantly rooting for them to lose.

I'm pretty sure your the only one wanting the expedition to loose bcos of war crimes.

Come to think of it..... show me somewhere in this 'laws of war' book (or watever it is that your preaching from), where it says 'murdering' robots is a war crime...

I get what your saying, but in my eyes your wrong, simply bcos I will not accept a program to be a consciousness.

mac_leod
August 18th, 2008, 09:10 AM
Some enemies are too dangerous to be left alive. Take Baal for example. He was a POW. Would you say that the Tok'ra were guilty of war crimes for killing him?


I get what your saying, but in my eyes your wrong, simply bcos I will not accept a program to be a consciousness.

Different universe, but what about Data?

DigiFluid
August 18th, 2008, 09:40 AM
Some enemies are too dangerous to be left alive.
I find thinking like that to be more dangerous than any villain. I personally and morally object to execution, I consider it state-sponsored murder. However I'm perfectly capable of setting that aside for the sake of the fiction we watch:



Take Baal for example. He was a POW. Would you say that the Tok'ra were guilty of war crimes for killing him?
Baal was held and presumably tried for millennia of crimes, given that they were holding him in stasis rather than just blasting him with a staff without capturing him at all. If that had been the case, hey, just another casualty of war--no foul.

If they did, in fact, execute without trial, then yes they're also guilty of murdering a POW. *BUT* that's only from our POV, the Tok'ra are not from Earth and don't have the same legal framework that we've built for ourselves and should be expected to adhere to. Soldiers by very definition do not fight on their homeland, and to suggest that because they're in Pegasus and not on Earth, the rules don't apply is just absurd. The good guys have rules based on morality to follow--that's what makes them the good guys. As I said above, when the good guys have stopped following the rules and doing the right things, they're really not the good guys anymore.

PG15
August 18th, 2008, 12:14 PM
And if we can't follow our own rules of right and wrong because our enemies happen to be a bit different than we are, I think we really cease to be the good guys.

There are no good guys. At least, not if you judge them by their actions (intentions are a whole different ball of wax).

Stargate has never truly had good guys per se; it's always about a group of humans who have make difficult, and sometimes unethical decisions to more-or-less protect Earth and/or other people. That's what makes it interesting. They're protagonists, not good guys (no matter how many times they say they are).

And our enemies aren't "a bit different", they are very different, to the point where we can't even co-exist without one of the parties suffering major casualties. I ask again; what if we had a Wraith POW (which we did, actually); should we sacrifice the lives of our own people to make sure he doesn't starve to death so as to uphold this law of war? At which point do we start questioning our imperfect laws instead of following them blindly, and realize that they aren't universal?

General Yogi Bear
August 18th, 2008, 01:34 PM
We are the good guys because our goals in the Pegasus Galaxy are good even though the team has done unethical things to try to achieve them.

We can't feed a Wraith POW because that would be committing a crime. Maybe one day we can come up with some technology to have them feed on Pegasus cows.

PS-Just to clarify my earlier post. I don't think the replicators are just machines but are living beings since they are self aware.

PG15
August 18th, 2008, 01:40 PM
But not feeding them would starve them to death, which is yet another war crime. That's my point.

DigiFluid
August 18th, 2008, 01:50 PM
But not feeding them would starve them to death, which is yet another war crime. That's my point.

I didn't say I had an answer to that, it's certainly a far more difficult problem to address.

But there was a choice in GitM, and they made the wrong one.

PG15
August 18th, 2008, 01:56 PM
Fair enough. I still disagree though; I didn't think they were really prisoners.

prion
August 18th, 2008, 02:07 PM
Fair enough. I still disagree though; I didn't think they were really prisoners.

Hm, if you have guns pointed at you, you contained to a room, you're a prisoner. They had an armed escort to the gate. THey weren't being allowed to roam freely, so.... yeah, I'd say they were prisoners, particularly after one of them went wild and attacked people.

But since this is scifi, and since it's in another galaxy, pesky things like the Geneva Convention don't apply. *cough*

PG15
August 18th, 2008, 02:47 PM
Hm, if you have guns pointed at you, you contained to a room, you're a prisoner.

Well yes, I would be, but if I were a replicator, then those guns would be about as threatening as a water pistol to a human; and those guards would be like kids or something (whom I can push away easily to make room for escape). Do you think a group of humans surrounded by kids with water guns are considered prisoners?

That's my whole point. A prisoner is usually someone subdued and locked up and not a threat; the replicators were anything but those things.


They had an armed escort to the gate. THey weren't being allowed to roam freely, so.... yeah, I'd say they were prisoners, particularly after one of them went wild and attacked people.


Does it matter if they weren't allowed to do anything? If they wanted to attack us, they'd have the upper hand.

Platschu
August 18th, 2008, 03:41 PM
Why do I feel Mckay was out of his character? He began a chit-chat with Weir, while he knew what will happen. I could imagine this about Woolsey, but I think Rodney is a more sensitive character. Maybe he didn't want to risk for revealing their trap, but I am not sure I would like to see this face of him again. :o

Sheppard141
August 19th, 2008, 08:56 AM
I was just thinking is it possible that the ending we seen was really happening in a virtual reality. Remember Woosley said that we should put her in a virtual reality for her to prove herself trustworthy. And then at the end Rodney said something like I guess we know if she was really Elizabeth or not. Maybe that's what they did. I can't see them just giving up the chance to get Elizabeth back. Am I just crazy or does anyone else think that is possible.

General Yogi Bear
August 20th, 2008, 01:47 AM
I was just thinking is it possible that the ending we seen was really happening in a virtual reality. Remember Woosley said that we should put her in a virtual reality for her to prove herself trustworthy. And then at the end Rodney said something like I guess we know if she was really Elizabeth or not. Maybe that's what they did. I can't see them just giving up the chance to get Elizabeth back. Am I just crazy or does anyone else think that is possible.

I don't think so but I like your ending a lot better than the shows. I'm guessing Elizabeth proved to them that the replicators were just too much of a threat to keep around. Usually these characters are reasonable so I'll just give them the benefit of the doubt. Its similar to when Major Sheppard shot Col. Sumner in that mercy killing. Which in the real military isn't allowed.

FallenAngelII
August 20th, 2008, 08:49 AM
Bla, bla, repli!Weir(2) lied, bla, bla.

Bottom line is, it would've been a much better ending if they had just created those damn human bodies and then been released onto a planet somewhere to pursue Ascension. Elizabeth would've still left Atlantis (as she was now their leader and expert on Ascension and humanity (of sorts)).

We could reconnect with them if something that required their help surfaces (like that new alien threat).

But noooo, let's mine this for as much drama as possible! Throw in a useless ending where everybody loses. OK, so we got some tech info from repli!Weir(2), but we would've gotten that even if she would've gotten a human body and been left to pursue Ascension!

This was not worth it. The 5 minutes of drama and sadness was not worth the deaths of several innocent and peaceful Asurans. Sure, they attacked the city. But we've entertained the notion of sacrificing others in times of great need as well.

When the Wraith attacked, some people were willing to steal the ZPM from the Kid Planet. We left Fifth behind when he betrayed his own people to help us, leaving him to die (or rather, in a time dilation field so the Asgaard could invent a way to kill all Replicators). We eradicated the entire Asuran race despite there still being people who shared Niam's philosophy among them (we had no way of knowing they were on the run and not currently in the city).

When push comes to shove, the Atlantis expedition is prepared to (and has) kill innocents to save their hides. And for all we know, Koracen forced the others to attack the city (unless it was part of repli!Weir(2)'s plan to fake an attack).

Whatever. Most of those Asurans were still probably innocent and peaceful and genuinely concerned only with Ascension. It was very brash of the expedition and Elizabeth to condemn them all for the actions of one Asuran. Using that same philosophy, all of humanityn needs to be eradicated because of the actions of a few (because destruction and death obviously are in our nature, what with the many wars over such trivial matters as land or religion (yes, it's nothing to kill over!)).

I personally think a nice fluffy ending where everyone wins instead of everyone loses would've been better. What did the expedition get out of this compared to if they would've gotten those human bodies? Nothing. What did the galaxy get? Nothing. What did the viewers get? A sad and dramatic few minutes that ultimately leaves us empty, angry and teary-eyed at yet another seemingly random and unnecessary (supposed) death.

What's up with Elizabeth and her willingness to randomly go off and die for stupid reasons?

Oh, killing Elizabeth once isn't enough, you have to kill her thrice.

Sheppard141
August 20th, 2008, 10:43 AM
I agree 100% totally stupid ending. Why can't the writers just bring her back. Arg:mad: Oh well they kinda tied up the story, there isn't much of a chance for weir comming back.

Spanky Deluxe
August 21st, 2008, 05:15 AM
Finally got round to watching this episode last night. The end just felt so wrong. Atlantis was willing to let the replicators carry on their work with the safeguards in place, the replicators had all proven themselves trustworthy by staying in the chamber they had been confined to instead of trying to escape and Weir had proved herself worthy by killing the dangerous replicator and then handing herself back into Atlantis' custody.
Aside from the ending being wrong it also felt completely unbelievable.

jelgate
August 21st, 2008, 08:13 PM
The Replicators had proven themselves trustworth:confused:

Finger13
August 21st, 2008, 11:05 PM
I don't know why they wouldn't permanently destroy them once they were through. I mean all they'd have to do is re-dial the gate as the last one stepped through and they could probably catch them all in the vortex without even having to send a jumper.

The fact that it was Weir doesn't change the fact that she was obviously behaving differently since becoming a Replicator. Yes she maintained her morals and good for her, but she was still compromised. I suppose that they could have put her into the VR, but that's obviously not what she wanted. If she arranged for the deception of the other Replicators, she could have surely bargained to be uploaded or whatnot.

Since she willingly stepped through knowing that she wouldn't be coming back, I'd say she didn't have much interest in that.

She probably wanted it to end.

FallenAngelII
August 23rd, 2008, 02:20 AM
The Replicators had proven themselves trustworth:confused:
As Koracen showed us, the Asurans were still able to take showers of bullets without even being slowed down. Koracen took tons of bullest from John and didn't even seem fazed by it.

If they wanted to, they could've struck down the, what, 2-3 guards at the lab and made a break for it. But they didn't. They were only genuinely concerned with creating fully human bodies to upload their memories into.

decozar
August 23rd, 2008, 07:58 AM
My view is , that it was a big risk of having a replicator in atlantis. there was no proof that it was weir at all, all the proof there was was her saying im E - weir.

they got enough from them when they downloaded all the technology into there computers and who knows she could of put the co-ordinates for the ship also.

but i admit i bet they wont make use of any of this technology like they ardly NEVER do.!

FallenAngelII
August 24th, 2008, 12:07 PM
My view is , that it was a big risk of having a replicator in atlantis. there was no proof that it was weir at all, all the proof there was was her saying im E - weir.

they got enough from them when they downloaded all the technology into there computers and who knows she could of put the co-ordinates for the ship also.

but i admit i bet they wont make use of any of this technology like they ardly NEVER do.!
Even after the Koracen-debacle, Richard said if repli!Weir(2) wanted to, they would allow her and the remaining Asurans to complete their work.

It was Elizabeth's idea and choice to, instead, "kill" them all.

wraith queen inga
May 21st, 2009, 07:26 AM
its understandable why she betrayed her replicator friends, because after all they did try to sink the city and kill everyone in Atlantis. so she knew they can't be trusted.

But after she fooled all the Replicator to follow her into the gate (going first and transmitting to them from the other side that it was ok) and they all ended up floating in space , the Atlantis team now knew that Weir was loyal to them and not the replicators, so why not send a Jumper to the other side to just pick up Weir.
They could then put her in the virtual reality. better than dying in the cold of space isn't it?Also they could get more intell from her. For example she could tell them where the replicators left their ship.

I disagree.

Better dying then being stuck in something that isnt real (especially when its Weir we talk about, a character that our friends have known for a LOONG time, i cant believe they could even CONSIDER putting her in there and then simply go on with their lives with their old friend stuck in a virtual reality.)

asdf1239
April 5th, 2010, 04:21 AM
weir was evil and deserved the same fate as the replicators she betrayed

nathanmricker
March 19th, 2013, 03:07 PM
Seems odd that Woolsey, Sheppard & co would be so concerned over how big a threat the Asurans are, but have no problem with leaving them out in space for anyone to find.


I agree. This episode's ending really fell below my expectations ~
First of all, the "asian" replicator chick is the one that dials the address = why not have Grier if she was the one "leading them to self doom"

also

its not like one of the sketchy replicators rebelled but it was the scientiest that was convinced he could ascend from a replicator problem if given enough time = the other replicators where actually self sacrificing / anti rage replicators seeking peace and a means to ascend = they have no reason to not want a human body especially after understanding that they couldnt ascend in robot form except into computer programming...

This show had potential to demonstrate that not all replicators are bad and even some are able to fight against their "code" to be something greater
essentially we just killed a tribe of peaceful monks after being attacked by other non peaceful replicators..

Davey
December 26th, 2018, 04:54 PM
I really don't get what happened. If they were downloaded into human bodies, then the moment they stepped into space the bodies would have disintegrated. Furthermore, how is it that their replicator minds didn't detect changing the Gate address??!!

StargateMillennium
December 26th, 2018, 07:11 PM
I really don't get what happened. If they were downloaded into human bodies, then the moment they stepped into space the bodies would have disintegrated. Furthermore, how is it that their replicator minds didn't detect changing the Gate address??!!

A few things.

The human body wouldn't disintegrate in space. A person can remain conscious for approx 15 seconds before losing consciousness in space. Death is estimated to take one minute.

The replicators were not in human bodies. They were still replicator nanite bodies.

How would the replicators detect the changing address? It's not like they're in the computers anymore.