Earth's got a ZPM, too!

[gkyun]

I was rewatching Continuum and I just realised, that when SG-1 is talking about getting a ZPM for the Antarctic Chair Weapon by traveling all the way to Taonas, shouldn't it be easier and a lot closer to dig out the one buried in Giza instead?

[PG15]

Yeah...it would.

That's brilliant thinking, actually. And it would be there, as this reality is only different from 1939 onwards.

[VSS]

I can't believe I have to think through two time travel/AT stories at the same time, but... but...

Yes!

Nice catch! And, it wouldn't have changed the movie much, either, since the Antarctic site was destroyed so fast.

[The_Carpenter]

Yeah...it would.

That's brilliant thinking, actually. And it would be there, as this reality is only different from 1939 onwards.

but as the stargate never made it to America, SG-1 would not of gone back in time to extract and bury the ZPM in ancient Egypt

Temporal mechanics make my head hurt...

[PG15]

Ah, but that was yet another alternate timeline. The one in this movie would've eventually led to our SG1 discovering the ZPM burried by their alternate selves, if Ba'al hasn't changed the timeline beginning in 1939. However, even though he did, the ZPM wouldn't have been disturbed.

Clear?

[VSS]

but as the stargate never made it to America, SG-1 would not of gone back in time to extract and bury the ZPM in ancient Egypt

Temporal mechanics make my head hurt...

Ah, but that was yet another alternate timeline. The one in this movie would've eventually led to our SG1 discovering the ZPM burried by their alternate selves, if Ba'al hasn't changed the timeline beginning in 1939. However, even though he did, the ZPM wouldn't have been disturbed.

Clear?

Well, I can see both of your points here.

But changing the timeline creates an alternate universe, not the same one that has the lives of a few people (and eventually everybody) changed around. It's actually a different place, right down to the sands of Giza. If the stargate wasn't operational, they would not have been able to travel back and bury the ZPM before Ra took off with it.

So it would not be there. Because although The ZPM was buried in the sand by a team from an alternate universe, the timelines do connect way back there in ancient Egypt. That is how the timeline was restored in the first place.

The timeline in Continuum never connects there. What happened in the alternate timelines in Moebius have no impact on it at all.

Whew, Carpenter, you restored my faith in the writing for this movie. I would've thought this was a really big plot hole.

[VSS]

I think part of the problem is that we never know which theory of AT/AU they're going to use.

In Continuum its more like an alternate universe.

EDIT:
It also kind of creeps me out to think that what goes on in an alternate universe could affect things in this one. So I'm philosophically opposed to that.

Although, people in the future could have totally screwed with our past, and we wouldn't have a clue.

[PG15]

Ok, I thought about all this, and I've drawn up a diagram about it. I've spoilered it for size:

Spoiler:

Alright, an explanation is necessary, obviously. Basically, I'm gonna go with the Alternate timeline theory for both Moebius and Continuum. Together, there are 5 timelines (TLs).

Moebius TL - The timeline we saw at the beginning of Moebius; includes the SG1 that first travelled back in time to try to get the ZPM and ends up getting stuck there.

Moebius Geeky TL - Like its name, this is the timeline where Danny's an ESL teacher, Sam's a total geek, and Jack is retired and has a boat.

Continuum TL - This is the timeline at the beginning of Continuum; it includes the Danny, Sam, and Cam that eventually ended up on Alternate Earth.

Continuum Stargate-less TL - This is the timeline where most of Continuum takes place, the one where Ba'al attacked the Achilles and sent it to the Arctic, and the Giza Stargate is never found.

Normal TL - This is the timeline followed by pretty much all of the SG1 series, except for most of 2010, most of Moebius, and most of Continuum. In these 3 cases, we only see the Normal TL at the ends of the episodes/movie.

So what does this all mean? Well, we start from the very left of the diagram. Here, history for all 5 timelines are identical (let's assume for simplicity's sake). At the start of Moebius, we are in the blue timeline, which is not ours. Let's call the SG1 there "Blue SG1". Ok, now this SG1 travels back to 3000 BC (blue arch) and changes history. They create another timeline (the purple/red/green/black one) that's different from the blue one. They get stuck there and after some time, they bury the ZPM in that Egyptian tomb, marked by the orange "Z" in the diagram. At this point, we follow the purple timeline to the time of Moebius, when the "geeky SG1", or "Purple SG1" travels back to 2995 BC and creates yet another timeline, which is ours. To summarize, we now have 3 timelines: blue, purple, and black/red/green. The latter 2 have ZPMs buried in the ground.

The black/red/green timeline stays "stable" until 1929 AD, but I'll get to that later. For Continuum, we follow the red timeline until Ba'al's execution. This is not our timeline. The red arc starting at the red block at 2008 AD (Continuum) is Ba'al's trajectory, and he ends up in 1939, where he creates the green timeline. This is where it gets weird, because the red timeline ceases to exist, indicating that it's not an alternate timeline, but a single timeline that can be changed. This doesn't fit our premise that everything is based on alternate timelines. If it did, then no one would disappear, and Ba'al's plans would eventually rule an alternate Earth from the Earth in the red timeline. But...let's ignore that. It makes things easier.

Anyway, the double-line arrow thing indicates that "Red SG1" basically "leapt timelines" to the green one, thanks to the Stargate. They then live unhappily for a year before Ba'al arrives. From there, "Red Cam Mitchell" uses Ba'al's time travel device to get back to 1929, creating our normal timeline.

So that was a lot of confusing stuff. What does this mean for our timeline? How does history unfold in this timeline? Altogether now:

1. "Blue SG1" arrives in a timeship in 3000 BC. They get stuck here, they plan an uprising, and all but Daniel dies. Ra's ZPM is buried.

2. "Purple SG1" (minus "Purple Daniel") arrives in 2995 BC in "Blue SG1"'s timeship and helps "Blue Daniel" orchestrate another uprising. They suceed, and "Purple Sam", "Purple Jack", "Purple Teal'c", and "Blue Daniel" live out the rest of their lives in Ancient Egypt.

3. Fast forward to 1929, where "Red Cam" arrives through the Stargate. He lies low until 1939, when "Red Ba'al" comes through the Giza Stargate, only to be shot by "Red Cam". "Red Cam" then lives out the rest of his life in an unassuming manner, though he does take a picture with Grandpa Mitchell.

4. Our Teal'c is born somewhere around this time...I think.

5. A few decades later, our Jack, Sam, and Daniel are also born (at different times, of course).

4. Fast forward again to 2005, when our SG1 gets the ZPM buried in Ancient Egypt, even though they didn't do anything. They then go fishing.

5. Then, 3 years later, they attend Ba'al's execution, and despite the system lord boasting that they made a mistake, nothing comes of it. The execution goes through, our Cam's not impressed, and they go home. Cam has a picture of "Red Cam" and his grandpa hanging in his locker. They go eat lunch, paid for by our Jack.

All in all...there should've been a ZPM available to the SG1 in Continuum ("Red SG1"), and unfortunately, VSS, there has been a lot of alternate reality tempering in our SG1's reality. And this is not even including 2010!

Oh, and the pink dot on the green timeline is approximately when A Dog's Breakfast happens, which, according to this thread, is now part of Stargate canon.

Ta da!

[Major_Griff]

I think part of the problem is that we never know which theory of AT/AU they're going to use.

In Continuum its more like an alternate universe.

EDIT:
It also kind of creeps me out to think that what goes on in an alternate universe could affect things in this one. So I'm philosophically opposed to that.

Although, people in the future could have totally screwed with our past, and we wouldn't have a clue.

Yeah they seem to flip flop on which time travel theory they use. In 1969 they didn't change anything since everything they did in the past already happened, but then in 2010, Moebeus, Last Man, and Continuum, they use they alternate universe theory.

[VSS]

Spoiler:

Ok, I thought about all this, and I've drawn up a diagram about it. I've spoilered it for size:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Alright, an explanation is necessary, obviously. Basically, I'm gonna go with the Alternate timeline theory for both Moebius and Continuum. Together, there are 5 timelines (TLs).

Moebius TL - The timeline we saw at the beginning of Moebius; includes the SG1 that first travelled back in time to try to get the ZPM and ends up getting stuck there.

Moebius Geeky TL - Like its name, this is the timeline where Danny's an ESL teacher, Sam's a total geek, and Jack is retired and has a boat.

Continuum TL - This is the timeline at the beginning of Continuum; it includes the Danny, Sam, and Cam that eventually ended up on Alternate Earth.

Continuum Stargate-less TL - This is the timeline where most of Continuum takes place, the one where Ba'al attacked the Achilles and sent it to the Arctic, and the Giza Stargate is never found.

Normal TL - This is the timeline followed by pretty much all of the SG1 series, except for most of 2010, most of Moebius, and most of Continuum. In these 3 cases, we only see the Normal TL at the ends of the episodes/movie.

So what does this all mean? Well, we start from the very left of the diagram. Here, history for all 5 timelines are identical (let's assume for simplicity's sake). At the start of Moebius, we are in the blue timeline, which is not ours. Let's call the SG1 there "Blue SG1". Ok, now this SG1 travels back to 3000 BC (blue arch) and changes history. They create another timeline (the purple/red/green/black one) that's different from the blue one. They get stuck there and after some time, they bury the ZPM in that Egyptian tomb, marked by the orange "Z" in the diagram. At this point, we follow the purple timeline to the time of Moebius, when the "geeky SG1", or "Purple SG1" travels back to 2995 BC and creates yet another timeline, which is ours. To summarize, we now have 3 timelines: blue, purple, and black/red/green. The latter 2 have ZPMs buried in the ground.

The black/red/green timeline stays "stable" until 1929 AD, but I'll get to that later. For Continuum, we follow the red timeline until Ba'al's execution. This is not our timeline. The red arc starting at the red block at 2008 AD (Continuum) is Ba'al's trajectory, and he ends up in 1939, where he creates the green timeline. This is where it gets weird, because the red timeline ceases to exist, indicating that it's not an alternate timeline, but a single timeline that can be changed. This doesn't fit our premise that everything is based on alternate timelines. If it did, then no one would disappear, and Ba'al's plans would eventually rule an alternate Earth from the Earth in the red timeline. But...let's ignore that. It makes things easier.

Anyway, the double-line arrow thing indicates that "Red SG1" basically "leapt timelines" to the green one, thanks to the Stargate. They then live unhappily for a year before Ba'al arrives. From there, "Red Cam Mitchell" uses Ba'al's time travel device to get back to 1929, creating our normal timeline.

So that was a lot of confusing stuff. What does this mean for our timeline? How does history unfold in this timeline? Altogether now:

1. "Blue SG1" arrives in a timeship in 3000 BC. They get stuck here, they plan an uprising, and all but Daniel dies. Ra's ZPM is buried.

2. "Purple SG1" (minus "Purple Daniel") arrives in 2995 BC in "Blue SG1"'s timeship and helps "Blue Daniel" orchestrate another uprising. They suceed, and "Purple Sam", "Purple Jack", "Purple Teal'c", and "Blue Daniel" live out the rest of their lives in Ancient Egypt.

3. Fast forward to 1929, where "Red Cam" arrives through the Stargate. He lies low until 1939, when "Red Ba'al" comes through the Giza Stargate, only to be shot by "Red Cam". "Red Cam" then lives out the rest of his life in an unassuming manner, though he does take a picture with Grandpa Mitchell.

4. Our Teal'c is born somewhere around this time...I think.

5. A few decades later, our Jack, Sam, and Daniel are also born (at different times, of course).

4. Fast forward again to 2005, when our SG1 gets the ZPM buried in Ancient Egypt, even though they didn't do anything. They then go fishing.

5. Then, 3 years later, they attend Ba'al's execution, and despite the system lord boasting that they made a mistake, nothing comes of it. The execution goes through, our Cam's not impressed, and they go home. Cam has a picture of "Red Cam" and his grandpa hanging in his locker. They go eat lunch, paid for by our Jack.

All in all...there should've been a ZPM available to the SG1 in Continuum ("Red SG1"), and unfortunately, VSS, there has been a lot of alternate reality tempering in our SG1's reality. And this is not even including 2010!

Ta da!

You have introduced a temporal assumption- that is that Blue SG-1 goes to Egypt first. We see it that way- because that's how it's shown in the series. We think that happens first- but it doesn't. For your theory to actually work out, it has to happen first, in order, just the way you've written it.

But it doesn't happen in that order- not in the alternate timeline in which Daniel, Cam and Teal'c find themselves. It all depends one's point of view.

See, this is the problem with thinking that the original timeline is, in fact, the original. As Landry points out, that's all relative.

[PG15]

Let's make sure of something first though: can we agree that the red timeline and the green timeline that Ba'al created only differ due to Ba'al's actions after he arrived through the Stargate? I.e. events in the timelines are the same before Ba'al's arrival.

I think we can agree to that, as otherwise it would mean that Ba'al not only travelled through time, but he jumped realities as well, which I don't think you can do with a Stargate on purpose.

Anyways, the reason I made that assumption is because the beginning of Continuum and the end of Continuum were almost exactly the same, and we know that the timeline at the end is ours (or else we end up with an alternate SG1 that's different from the one we've known all this time), which included a ZPM buried at Giza. If the timeline at the beginning of Continuum was one where we never found a ZPM at Giza (and thus there wouldn't have been a ZPM at Giza in the green timeline), then it would've been very different, as that ZPM was instrumental in Stargate history. It saved Atlantis, for one.

[VSS]

Let's make sure of something first though: can we agree that the red timeline and the green timeline that Ba'al created only differ due to Ba'al's actions after he arrived through the Stargate? I.e. events in the timelines are the same before Ba'al's arrival.

I think we can agree to that, as otherwise it would mean that Ba'al not only travelled through time, but he jumped realities as well, which I don't think you can do with a Stargate on purpose.

Anyways, the reason I made that assumption is because the beginning of Continuum and the end of Continuum were almost exactly the same, and we know that the timeline at the end is ours (or else we end up with an alternate SG1 that's different from the one we've known all this time), which included a ZPM buried at Giza. If the timeline at the beginning of Continuum was one where we never found a ZPM at Giza (and thus there wouldn't have been a ZPM at Giza in the green timeline), then it would've been very different, as that ZPM was instrumental in Stargate history. It saved Atlantis, for one.

But, we can't assume the Continuum timeline is connected that way at all. If you draw the timeline from the perspective of the green reality all you see is a straight line, from 4000 BC to the time that the earth is obliterated. According to the ATL in Continuum, nothing has changed for them. It only looks like it changed to the people who were in the red TL. (That would be us, too, BTW).

It doesn't matter that it was Ba'al who wrecked the boat. When he did that, he erased everything that SG-1 was ever going to do, and furthermore, he did, in fact, jump realities, only he did it at the very beginning of the reality. Again, it doesn't matter that he was the cause of the new reality- causality is very shaky concept anyway. He was taken out of time and space exactly the same as Cam, Sam and Daniel were, otherwise, he, too would have forgotten what happened and we know he did not.

This is the problem with Stargate and their concepts of AT/AU. Sometimes they assume the previous timeline winks out of existence- sometimes they assume it sort of travels on in another dimension. That is, after all, where all the AU's come from, we presume.

Ba'al intervenes and the entire red and blue timelines are gone- from the perspective of the Continuum ATL. Fortunately for Ba'al, he's isolated from these changes.

Edit: And, if you're in the ATL from Continuum, you wouldn't have any idea it was Ba'al who prevented the other timeline from happening. He's just a hot-looking-in-an-evil-sort-of-way guy that appears through this kawoosh-thingy and kills a bunch of guys for no good reason.

[PG15]

I think what we have here is an inability to connect Moebius and Continuum because of the different AU theories explored in each. I guess I shouldn't have ignored the disappearing timeline thing after all.

As for a straight-line reality, well, technically they're all straightlines according to their own perspective. However, that doesn't mean you don't get AU visitors in the timeline's past, as I laid out in my original post. In our reality, SG1 didn't do anything, but that didn't stop another SG1 from appearing out of nowhere in 3000 BC, and yet another in 2995 BC (and a note appearing out of nowhere from 2010). The fact that they didn't do anything for these 2 events to occur means that what happens in the present in this reality has no effect on those 2 visitations in the past, as they're from AUs anyway; and thus, even if Ba'al changes the timeline from 1939 onwards, those AU visitors would still arrive and bury the ZPM back in 3000 BC. They're from the realities where Ba'al never gated back and changed history.

[VSS]

I think what we have here is an inability to connect Moebius and Continuum because of the different AU theories explored in each. I guess I shouldn't have ignored the disappearing timeline thing after all.

As for a straight-line reality, well, technically they're all straightlines according to their own perspective. However, that doesn't mean you don't get AU visitors in the timeline's past, as I laid out in my original post. In our reality, SG1 didn't do anything, but that didn't stop another SG1 from appearing out of nowhere in 3000 BC, and yet another in 2995 BC (and a note appearing out of nowhere from 2010). The fact that they didn't do anything for these 2 events to occur means that what happens in the present in this reality has no effect on those 2 visitations in the past, as they're from AUs anyway; and thus, even if Ba'al changes the timeline from 1939 onwards, those AU visitors would still arrive and bury the ZPM back in 3000 BC. They're from the realities where Ba'al never gated back and changed history.

But Ba'al doesn't change the timeline, if it's the one you're in. This is the problem with AUs. There are so many possibilities- at least two at every turn but maybe even more- that any of the people in AU's could go back along their timeline and do something at the branch point to affect other realities. Including interfering with the Moebius teams. We have no idea if they did or didn't, in the ATL in Continuum. All you can say for sure is what you actually see- how it got that way? Who knows. But the team in the ATL do know they dinked with the ZPM somehow, but only in their reality- in every other reality they have no idea. They've seen realities where the whole SG program goes up in smoke. So they go for the ZPM they at least know is more likely to be there, the one on Taonas. At least they haven't altered the timeline there.

In fact, the team in the ATL has even seen AU teams try to steal ZPMs, haven't they? In the Ripple Effect.

[PG15]

Ok, I think I know what you're saying now. In our reality, we pretty much know how much temporal/AU crap we've gotten ourselves involved with, but in this "new" reality with at least 70 years of history being different from the one we know of, it's possible that some unknown temporal/AU stuff has happened within that time to remove that ZPM at Giza, right?

Hmmmm...that makes sense. If the question of whether the ZPM is there or not is replaced by the question of if SG1 knew it was there or not, then any temporal confusion is irrelevant, as it's based on gut feeling. I mean, if it's taken us this long to figure out whether the ZPM's there or not (and I don't think we've come to any conclusion about that), then SG1 would most definitely not have time to figure it out.

Alright, cool, I'm ok with that.