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GateWorld
November 7th, 2004, 05:29 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s8/811.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/graphics/811.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#666666">DISCUSS ...</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4 COLOR="#0066BF"><B>GEMINI</B></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 811</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
A duplicate of Colonel Carter seeks help from Stargate Command in defeating the Replicator Fifth, who she claims has found a way to counter the Asgard's new weapon.

<B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s8/811.shtml">Visit the Episode Guide >></A></B></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Major Fischer
December 14th, 2004, 11:37 AM
On behalf of those of us deprived.

Anyone want to summery for us ;) :D

Wass
December 14th, 2004, 11:40 AM
The episode is looking very promising so far and great acting by Amanda Tapping.

Replicarter
December 14th, 2004, 11:49 AM
All i have to say is wow! ok.. not just wow, though this episode dident have lots of funny one liners, the one at the beggining was great when Replicarter said there are 2 of us, and O'Neill said If only. I think Replicerter would make a good phsycologist, she speeks so slowly and calmly. Anyway, il say more when i actualy watch the end of the ep, thank god i have sky+, brakes arnt long enough to post :D

Wass
December 14th, 2004, 11:55 AM
At the start of this episode Daniel and Sam are having a conversation about ship being installed with asgard hyperdrive system and also being stocked for the up coming Atlantis mission.

Nee
December 14th, 2004, 11:59 AM
i thought this episode sucked.
oo that carter :-)

Madeleine
December 14th, 2004, 12:00 PM
At last the Alpha-site is being put to its proper use. It's good to see the Threatening But Interesting Thing being taken there instead of being allowed to roam the SGC. Yay.

Even so, it was hard to see why Carter trusted a Replicator so readily, even one wearing her face and memories. Hands up everyone who didn't guess that showing her the disruptor would let her work out a way to make herself immune from it? :rolleyes:

keppiezbt
December 14th, 2004, 12:02 PM
At last the Alpha-site is being put to its proper use. It's good to see the Threatening But Interesting Thing being taken there instead of being allowed to roam the SGC. Yay.

Even so, it was hard to see why Carter trusted a Replicator so readily, even one wearing her face and memories. Hands up everyone who didn't guess that showing her the disruptor would let her work out a way to make herself immune from it? :rolleyes:


o summarize the episode for the american

Replicarter
December 14th, 2004, 12:03 PM
OMG, that ending was just, wow. Does anyone elce think TPTB and in a terminator mood? She gets shot and you see the metal woonds, then they heal, at the end when shes coming into the gate room the music sounds very similar to the main theme of The Terminator, and Spoilers for Reckoning, look at this pic http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s8/graphics/8x5_31.jpg that is more T than the rest lol.

Replicarter
December 14th, 2004, 12:05 PM
i thought this episode sucked.
oo that carter :-)

And in what way do you think it sucked? I thought it was amazing.

nthanki
December 14th, 2004, 12:09 PM
Well I thought it was an awesome episode. thats partly because i haven't had any new sg-1 for a while. AT did a very good job in playing both sams.
i was a bit sad at the fact that DJ didnt feature a lot in the episode. although there are HUGE spoilers for Prometheus Unbound. I don't know if they have already been disclosed but if anyone wants to know please say the word and i will use spolier tags.

Teal'c
December 14th, 2004, 12:10 PM
Did anyone else notice that Joe and Paul are now Executive Producers? After Brad and Robert's names fade out Joe and Paul's fade in. Excellent :D

Poor Fifth though, I still feel sorry for him. I wish there he had a better exit.

Teal'c's smirks were great throughout the episode.

To give a quick summary:

Replicarter contacts SGC. She says she wants to die, she doesn't want to be with Fifth anymore. Jack agrees to let her go to the Alpha Site. They interogate her and she says Fifth has a way of stopping the new Replicator Disruptor by encypting kiron pathways yada yada yada. They get Replicarter to help them get around Fifth's encryption. But she keeps contacting Fifth through subspace, telling him she's playing Sam and the rest of them.

The Asgard send a disruptor satellite to the Alpha Site. Replicarter says Fifth has learned their location over the subspace network and found them. Teal'c uses an F-302 to put the satellite in orbit. Replicarter tells Sam she's found the cypher Fifth was using and they have to upload it to the satellite, but Fifth's ship arrives in orbit of the Alpha Site. Replicarter tells Fifth that the humans actually believed her, and so did he. She fires the satellite at Fifth's ship, destroying it. There was no cypher. But now Replicarter has one, after studying the disruptor. She escapes the Alpha Site to lead the Replicators as they take over the galaxy.

keppiezbt
December 14th, 2004, 12:13 PM
Did anyone else notice that Joe and Paul are now Executive Producers? After Brad and Robert's names fade out Joe and Paul's fade in. Excellent :D

Poor Fifth though, I still feel sorry for him. I wish there he had a better exit.

Teal'c's smirks were great throughout the episode.

To give a quick summary:

Replicarter contacts SGC. She says she wants to die, she doesn't want to be with Fifth anymore. Jack agrees to let her go to the Alpha Site. They interogate her and she says Fifth has a way of stopping the new Replicator Disruptor by encypting kiron pathways yada yada yada. They get Replicarter to help them get around Fifth's encryption. But she keeps contacting Fifth through subspace, telling him she's playing Sam and the rest of them.

The Asgard send a disruptor satellite to the Alpha Site. Replicarter says Fifth has learned their location over the subspace network and found them. Teal'c uses an F-302 to put the satellite in orbit. Replicarter tells Sam she's found the cypher Fifth was using and they have to upload it to the satellite, but Fifth's ship arrives in orbit of the Alpha Site. Replicarter tells Fifth that the humans actually believed her, and so did he. She fires the satellite at Fifth's ship, destroying it. There was no cypher. But now Replicarter has one, after studying the disruptor. She escapes the Alpha Site to lead the Replicators as they take over the galaxy.

woah..awesome..now i wonder what will happen...can the replicators be stopped!!!

michelleb
December 14th, 2004, 12:16 PM
That was amazing!!!

AT did a fantastic job distinguishing between the two Carters...and Replicarter was fantastically cool!!! I loved it when she was evil!!! I hope she returns, she was wonderful.

In fact, I loved the whole episode. Nice build up of tension with fifth coming, interesting insight into Carter's character, good interaction with sam/jack at the beginning (Two Carters..if only!) I was glued to the screen every second!

susanmary_1
December 14th, 2004, 12:19 PM
Well I thought it was an awesome episode. thats partly because i haven't had any new sg-1 for a while. AT did a very good job in playing both sams.
i was a bit sad at the fact that DJ didnt feature a lot in the episode. although there are HUGE spoilers for Prometheus Unbound. I don't know if they have already been disclosed but if anyone wants to know please say the word and i will use spolier tags.
I agree, I thought this was an excellent episode and AT did an amazing job playing Carter, nice/vulnerable replicarter and nasty "Ruler of the Universe" replicarter. Patrick Currie did an excellent job, as always, as Fifth, poor guy won't have to worry about being betrayed again (the guy is dust)!

Lunar
December 14th, 2004, 12:24 PM
Great ep, really loved it.
Not a lot of Daniel, but reading the Prometheus Unbound spoilers I think the debt will be repayed next week with an extremely Daniel-centric ep.
Gemini It wasn't a great ep for Colonel Carter though. Compared to Major Carter she seems... a little too trusting at times? I dunno, she just seems a little... dilute compared to the Carter of previous seasons. A little <winces> .... dumb at times?
But a good ep, real return to form, I feel.

susanmary_1
December 14th, 2004, 12:32 PM
There was a great scene near the end when replicarter is talking to Sam in her mind, she's telling her that she knows how she thinks, how she feels, what she will do

"You play by the rules. You deny yourself your desires."

Oh yes, she's got your number Sam! ;)

Madeleine
December 14th, 2004, 12:35 PM
Too trusting, right.

Can anyone come up with a good fix for Carter's gulibility? I've tried for thirty whole seconds and failed, but if anyone is less addled and lazy than me...

??

Thor
December 14th, 2004, 12:38 PM
So I assume "Gemini" has now aired? Anyone wanna give me some spoilerfree words about this episode? What did you like/not like, just tell me your opinion ;)

JackDaniels
December 14th, 2004, 12:51 PM
I really enjoyed the episode too, though I was also a little bummed out by the lack of Daniel Jackson, though the implication was that Prometheus Unbound was taking place simulataneously with Gemini. I think the good thing about this episode was the two Carters and I think Carter's willingness to trust the replicator came from her desire to put an end to something she thinks she started (i.e Fifth and his desire for revenge) and also replicarter used her feelings about Jack to gain her trust. When she was saying that Fifth had tortured her, she used the example fo killing Jack for this, and Sam believed how hard it was for her. This is what made Sam so gullible. She also wanted to believe that since Replicarter was like her, their goals would be the same.

I think that it was also ineresting that Replicater said Sam was more powerful than even she realised, but that she was held back by her fears. Of course this obviously refers to Jack, but also leads me to question just how much smarter can that woman be?

Nice to have Jack in the episode a bit more and Teal'c doing something an episode other than the ones that centre around him!

All in all a great episode, looking forward to her coming back, seeing how she evolves and also Prometheus Unbound (a DJ episode, yay!)

Watters87
December 14th, 2004, 01:24 PM
I thought this was a great episode. Easily the best episode this season. As some have said AT did a great job of separating Sam with Replicarter.

Was to me shippy but it wasn't obvious if you didn't want to see it. Jack was way better as a General in this ep and hope to see this for the rest of the season. Teal'c was great as well. He wasn't just wallpaper.

Major Fischer
December 14th, 2004, 01:25 PM
I think that it was also ineresting that Replicater said Sam was more powerful than even she realised, but that she was held back by her fears. Of course this obviously refers to Jack, but also leads me to question just how much smarter can that woman be?


I doubt that was referring to Jack or her own intelligence. I think the more likely explaination is that it refers to her abilities to use Goa'uld technology from her experiance with Jolinar. She is always loathed to use the ribbon device or the healing device.

Anubis
December 14th, 2004, 01:34 PM
All I have to say is wow. This episode is fantastic. I couldn't have asked for better. ;)


The beginning scene with S/J was good where Jack said "All the better" to there being two Sams. :D Good stuff. Execellent camera angles, good Teal'c action -- but I can't help feeling sorry for the gullable Fifth. ;) Sad to see him go as I thought he was good. :)

mishy_mo
December 14th, 2004, 01:41 PM
yup this was a fantastic episode that deffinately didn't disapoint

thier was so much deception

i never expected RC would turn around and kill fifth because she was hell bent on galactic domination!!!!!!

phew what a twist!!!!!

i did do a little nit-picking though

teal'c's fave word sergeant that kinda annoyed me a bit (even though he only said it twice)

and the fact that when ever they refered to killing RC they didn't actually say it they said 'the mission' or 'the plan' or what ever and i'd just prefer straight talking

although i'd did make you wonder whether they where on to her so i'm kinda undecided about that

but like i said nit-picking these bits are practically insignificant to the wonder that is Gemini

it even seemed to go faster than the previous episodes of this season, there seemed to be a lot more going on it

where did danny boy go to though?

sueKay
December 14th, 2004, 01:42 PM
I loved this ep!

I have to dissagree with something AT said though. She said that Replicarter doesn't have her heart. I'd say half the reason replicarter is gonna be so evil is BECAUSE she has Carter's heart...without a conscience.

Can't wait for Reckoning!!!!!!!

I WANT FIFTH BACK!!!!!!!

THE 'CUTEST BAD GUY' CAN'T BE DEAD!!!!!!!!! HE'S TOO CUTE TO DIE AFTER ONLY THREE (four if NO counts as 2) EPS!!!!

That's my only gripe.

:D

Purple
December 14th, 2004, 01:52 PM
I think Carter's willingness to trust the replicator came from her desire to put an end to something she thinks she started (i.e Fifth and his desire for revenge) and also replicarter used her feelings about Jack to gain her trust. When she was saying that Fifth had tortured her, she used the example fo killing Jack for this, and Sam believed how hard it was for her. This is what made Sam so gullible.


Ditto! Couldn't have put it better myself. What a fantastic episode, AT was Excellent as replicarter, I didn't see it coming, the ending that is, it completely floored me. I hope we see more of replicarter, what a GREAT story arc for the rest of season eight. I wonder if the reckoning willbe the last time we see Replicarter or will this story line continue to season nine? But thats of course assuming AT will be back from season 9

What a GREAT early Christmas presents from TPTB, will SKy one be airing the next new episode of SG1 next Tuesday or will it be after the Holidays?

Purple

Purple
December 14th, 2004, 01:57 PM
I loved this ep!

I have to dissagree with something AT said though. She said that Replicarter doesn't have her heart. I'd say half the reason replicarter is gonna be so evil is BECAUSE she has Carter's heart...without a conscience.



:D

Oh another point I agree on. My thoughts excatly :eek:
Am I that original? :p
purple

Dani347
December 14th, 2004, 02:01 PM
Oh, great. So, I'm going to be stuck with ship when this episode comes on in the US? Well, I'll have ample time to get my barf bag ready.

Replicarter
December 14th, 2004, 02:04 PM
Still no comments on the similarities to teminator, so i guess im the only one...

shelsfc
December 14th, 2004, 02:04 PM
AT was fantastic. She did a really great job of separating the two characters.

Where was Daniel? I know he mentioned something about the Prometheus, but isn't that a different ep - oh right, the filming schedule thing....:cool:

Good little implied shippy stuff particularly at the start - two Carter's Jack: "If only!"
ROFL. Cute look between them too.

Here's my explaination for why Sam was so gullible - when RC put her hand in her head, she did something to Sam's mind that made her more easily persuaded by what she (RC) was saying.
Ok, that's very vague and doesn't quite fit...but I just came up with it on the spot, and I'm not always very good at explaining plot holes away...:o
Anyway, it doesn't explain why everyone else there was quite willing to let RC play with their fancy weapon. --She's a Replicator people!!!! Please don't tell me the thought didn't occur that she might - just might - be using it to figure out how to defend herself against it. :rolleyes:

That aside, very very good episode.

Teal'c had a good role in a non-Teal'c episode. Impressive. :p He was very protective of Sam, that was nice.

Replicarter
December 14th, 2004, 02:07 PM
Oh, great. So, I'm going to be stuck with ship when this episode comes on in the US? Well, I'll have ample time to get my barf bag ready.

No, you dont realy notice it, one little scene, and the Cool and awsomness of Replicarter will flood out everything elce.

Dani347
December 14th, 2004, 02:13 PM
One scene is too many for me. Especially, if (if I read it right) Sam was so incredibly gullible to an enemy because said enemy used her supposed feelings for Jack. Gag.

Replicarter
December 14th, 2004, 02:18 PM
Well if you like il send you a copy on dvd with the ship scenes edited out? :P

The Kit Kat Lady
December 14th, 2004, 02:24 PM
I thoroughly enjoyed this episode, it's been a while since I've got excited about a new episode, most of the time I look forward to them and am satisfied at the end, but with this one it was "please sir, can I have some more".

AT's subtle facial differences were terrific, I found it interesting that even if they had been standing side by side in the same clothes, I think we would have been able to differentiate between the two.

Loved Jack's comment at the beginning, and am pleased that Teal'c had more of an outing this episode.

I would imagine that AT had a blast doing the fight sequences, especially throwing CJ across the floor!

Didn't see the twist at the end, the replicator fooling her creator gave the episode a nice twist. Of course there is always the possibility that she can create her own Fifth, made without the flaws!

I laughed out loud when the arm came off in Teal'c's hand - the look of surprise on both their faces was brilliant.

Just for a change it was also interesting to see that there will be consequences following the result of what has been done (or not done), and they realise that they are going to be in trouble from said actions. More often than not a storyline isn't followed through and we don't see the results of what SG-1 has done.

To possibly have the new replicator as the big baddie from hereon in would be terrific, and I wonder if we will see them go up against the supersoldiers or Ba'al.

Bring on the other episodes I say.

E :D

gatewatcher
December 14th, 2004, 02:35 PM
Thanks to all who shared their thoughts!
I can't wait to see the episode, but alas, I'll have to wait another month.

donnie_darko
December 14th, 2004, 02:37 PM
woah..awesome..now i wonder what will happen...can the replicators be stopped!!!

highlight to read :

When rep. Carter and Carter share their minds, we see that she does hesitate in killing O'Neill in the simulation Fifth puts her through, she also looks all teary eyed after. I wonder if this is the start of another shipper pair.

Scoobing
December 14th, 2004, 02:49 PM
Did anyone else like the F-302 badge that Teal'c had on his jumpsuit?

At first I thought it was kinda cheesy, but then I figured that they had been around so long, and had stopped being this 'new' thing, that they should fit in with the rest of the AirForce.

Just never thought I'd hear Teal'c say "Copy Flight".

:P

the dancer of spaz
December 14th, 2004, 02:50 PM
Do you guys know where I can find a transcript of the ep? :P

Replicarter
December 14th, 2004, 03:09 PM
LOL! Its been what, 1 hour 30mins? I dont think there will be a transcript for a while, though youd have on in an hour if i could be bothered to do them myself, as id type as things are being said. (obviously in word, as my spelling is atrotius)

Watters87
December 14th, 2004, 03:13 PM
A good synopsis and good bit of the transcript of Gemini is here http://www.stargatedanielfriendly.net/html/geminisynopsis.php It was put up pretty quickly. :)

Gategrrl
December 14th, 2004, 03:19 PM
One scene is too many for me. Especially, if (if I read it right) Sam was so incredibly gullible to an enemy because said enemy used her supposed feelings for Jack. Gag.


Letting a relicator of any sort, even one that looks like Carter, near the ONLY weapon that can destroy them, is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of!

Forget about "shippy" scenes. This just makes Carter and Jack and Teal'c look like morons. I'm *glad* Daniel is off on the Prometheus (with Claudia Black!) and didn't have a part in the general idiocy.

Thank heavens there are nine other episodes coming down the pike.

JackDaniels
December 14th, 2004, 03:30 PM
What a GREAT early Christmas presents from TPTB, will SKy one be airing the next new episode of SG1 next Tuesday or will it be after the Holidays?

Purple

I've just checked the Sky One Website and they will be showing Prometheus Unbound and The Eye next week. I thought they may have taken them off for their christmas scheduling but yey they are still there!!!

Looking forward to a Daniel filled eppy next week then, and a happy return for Hammond (missed the little bald guy!)

Matt G
December 14th, 2004, 04:07 PM
1. OK, I guess it's a fair enough question - how easily would an alternate version of yourself with all your memories and self-knowledge but with different/no moral values be able to outsmart you into thinking they were on your side?

I'd like to think I wouldn't get suckered but who knows! Like Sam, if I did get suckered then I'd feel like an idiot!(bear in mind that Jack at least was never really fooled in the first place)

2. Smooth work from AT on Replicarter.

3. And talking of the new girl on the block, she's just evolved the human Replicator's coolness. She sounds like she'll be an interesting challenge.

po134
December 14th, 2004, 06:27 PM
I have a question, of wich ship were thay talking about at this episode, holy beginning ?

Sorry, but I didn't catch the whole conversation ... they said new hyper-driver engin ? From the asgard :D ! Will it be on the prometheus ? or in a new ship ?
If we do now have a new hyperdriver engine, does it mean we have a new power generator ?
Do we have an asgard satellite network on earth ? :rolleyes:

I've so many question :cool:

Azrial
December 14th, 2004, 07:39 PM
I tried to enjoy this episode but the stupidity everywhere was making it hard.
I woulda thought getting the asgard to confirm that the disruptor was useless would have been a good start

the dancer of spaz
December 14th, 2004, 09:15 PM
No transcripts? Heh heh... ;)

So, I must say, it's interesting to see the culmination of ideas and feelings towards this ep. As always, both sides of the spectrum prove to be quite passionate about their feelings :rolleyes: , which is always an interesting thing to interpret.

Anywho, just for clarification purposes: Does Sam not think twice about giving RepliCarter all of the crap she needs, or does she at least LOOK weary about trusting RepliCarter. Nothing could change my mind about this ep being really, really cool or anything - I was just curious. For those who loved the ep, and for those who dis-loved (hated seems a bit strong :D ), what did you think?

Madeleine
December 14th, 2004, 09:33 PM
I watched it again when Mr W got home, and I still don't get how Carter was such a fool. A creature with all her memories and made by an evil genius, and she trusts it because... um... it asks her to? It's a Replicator. Carter knows how dangerous they can be. And, just on the offchance that it might not be lying, she lets it have full access to the only weapon that could defeat it? Ack.

I've liked Carter masses in s8, she hasn't been the moony drip she was in s7, but in this ep she was as dim as dim could be, and I just don't understand why. If there's one thing I can normally trust TPTB to do it's to write Sam as not an idiot.

AT acted Carter really well. I totally got how much Carter *wanted* to trust it, and that does mitigate the idiocy a little. I was less impressed with how she acted the replicator; I felt like I was watching AT acting rather than watching the replicator.

Fifth was as good as ever. :: sniff :: Fifth, I'll miss you.

Dani, don't worry, I noticed no ship and although I'm not as sensitive to it as you (I think) I didn't see any the second time either. And I can think of one scene that better suggests S/T than S/J. You might be safe ;)

But there's too much technobabble. Way too much. And not enough suspense even the first time. The only twist was Fifth getting offed ::sniff :: and this was a story that needed a twist or two.

And did I mention that Carter was an idiot?

Shipperahoy
December 14th, 2004, 09:54 PM
So did anybody think that Carter was an idiot? Anybody? So nobody huh? :p

tara3583
December 14th, 2004, 10:04 PM
This was really good and Amanda did a great job
with replicarter, i went along with the feelings of wow i'm really feeling sorry for the replicator to oh god she really is "BAD"

I'm so glad replicarter is still out there as i
think Sam will have some issues to sort out with her, interesting side note that rep/carter
said about Sam having power hungery thoughts, i
guess that would be the darkside of feelings she has but knows right from wrong and i would love to see Sam talk about that in S9 because that must have been a big deal for her to have heard.

As a shipper i found lots of little things to keep me happy and the scene where rep/carter had to shoot Jack was imho very telling that those feelings for Jack are still there:)
Bit taken aback by how easy Daniel and Teal'c were shoot with out much thought!

All in all a fantastic episode with much fallout to deal with from Sam and a really fantastic job done by Amanda (she does bad really good!):)

the dancer of spaz
December 14th, 2004, 10:29 PM
... All in all a fantastic episode with much fallout to deal with from Sam and a really fantastic job done by Amanda (she does bad really good!):)

Haha! Good stuff, Tara.

Well, I trust you guys.

Funny, Shipperahoy, by the way. :D I got a good chuckle out of that post.

I guess Carter had an "idiot moment" or a moment of weakness or... bad judgement. Or something. :S Uh oh. Looks like someone may have to find a pitchfork and some LARGE stones... :rolleyes:

I haven't seen the ep yet (as you all probably know by now - I'm the annoying one who keeps asking for transcripts :D ).

But, I must say, I find it kind of... odd... that so many people commented about the lack of Daniel. Was it that overwhelmingly obvious? I like seeing all four of the characters in one ep, but I'm a bit surprised that it was THAT big of a deal... I HOPE it wasn't that big of a deal.

Hmmm... I'm sure Prometheus Unbound will have absolutely NO Daniel in it... None at all... :cool:

Oh well, sorry... I'm probably mildly bitter about my own lack of... Gate. Until January, I guess. :P


PS - anyone got any transcripts :) ;) :P :D

Buzz Lightyear
December 14th, 2004, 10:52 PM
I thought this was a great episode. Easily the best episode this season. As some have said AT did a great job of separating Sam with Replicarter.

I thought this was a terrible episode - and my opinion has nothing to do with the acting.

The main problem I have with this episode is that it IS a great episode, except for one crucial element.

Ok, the good:

All-around solid acting, especially Amanda Tapping in her dual-role.
The double-cross of Fifth by replicator Sam.
The replicators found a way to counter-act the super-disruptor.
Some action away from the SGC for a change for this season! And it's on the alpha site (which no doubt helps save some money on remote location costs).
Did I mention the good acting?

The not-so-good:

Was Daniel even in this episode for more than 5 seconds? Even less than Jack's screen time.
Fifth was disposed of a little too quickly and easily for my liking.

The terrible:

Awful, awful plot-line with super-gullible Carter. How does one trust a replicator just because they look like you? Shouldn't one of Earth's pre-eminent astrophysicists and experts on alien weaponry know that the quickest way to develop a counter to an unfamiliar weapon is to study its underlying technology? Except I don't recall any of Earth's enemies freely providing schematics to their weaponry. Even allies are reluctant to share such information.

While I might almost be convinced that Carter could be manipulated into suddenly becoming a dumb blond, I was certain Jack would never be so trusting. I kept expecting O'Neill and Teal'c to spring some backup plan that might save the day or at least salvage it from total disaster. However, other than a few dialogue teases, this never happened.

For some reason, the Asgard also didn't protest how bad an idea it was to show the disruptor technology to ANY replicator, considering that they're much more at risk from the replicators than low-tech Earth is.

Despite all the good points, my ability to enjoy "Gemini" was completely undermined by Stupid Carter Syndrome (SCS). And that's a shame, since this episode obviously holds serious ramifications for future storylines and can't be passed off as insignificant filler fluff.

Azrial
December 14th, 2004, 10:57 PM
yerp buzz lightyear summed it up just as i would have if i could have been bothered

Buzz Lightyear
December 14th, 2004, 11:04 PM
yerp buzz lightyear summed it up just as i would have if i could have been bothered

ROFL!

Anubis
December 14th, 2004, 11:10 PM
I watched this episode again (from what I recorded on Sky+) and I don't understand why Carter fell for Replicarter so easily. I already knew that it wouldn't have been as easy as it was, making Replicarter a even bigger enemy than Fifth was. He was quite gullable, which I did not expect him to be. From the start, Replicarter had me convinced. ;)


Did Daniel actually appear in this episode after the first Prometheus scene? I don't recall it happening. Probably due to the filming of the episode we get next week. :D


Good show though .. best of S8 this far. :)

the dancer of spaz
December 14th, 2004, 11:33 PM
So... The general consensus is that Carter went completely out of character, and was duped by... herself, right? Pretty much everyone agrees that what Sam did was rather foolish, right? As much as I am absolutely loathe to admit it, it seems like a perfectly good ep was a bit ruined by a poor plot device (i.e. Sam). While said poor plot device proved to be distracting, it doesn't seem to have detracted from the great acting and cool plot twists.

I mean, think about it: They have all of this juicy, evil RepliCarter stuff to show, and all of these cool special effects, drama, and action, but the only way they can get to the good stuff, is to have RepliCarter exposed to the technology.

How do we do this?

Well, Daniel's on the Prometheus, Jack is characteristically distrustful, and Teal'c is one trigger-happy mofo. Who does that leave? The one person who can identify with RepliCarter. IMO, if Daniel had been there, he probably wouldn't have been much different than Sam. He would have been another voice of reason, but he wouldn't have been as gung ho as apparently Teal'c and Jack were.

I really don't think this is along Carter's character, however she and Daniel and Jonas always have been a lot more sympathetic to the situation, while Jack and Teal'c have always been ready to shoot up the place. I'm not excusing what they did in this ep (again, I didn't see it), but it makes sense in my opinion. Still, just because something is logical, it's not necessarily right or... ethical...

Having Sam become manipulated by her counterpart was a result of either a) absolutely NO other way of having RepliCarter gain control and access, or b) lazy writing - or maybe even a bit of both. And I'm not typically one to accuse the writers of this show of being lazy. I don't feel comfortable with making those sorts of accusations. :S It just seems to be a trend, you know?

There have been too many instances where we've read, heard, or seen something that just is NOT consistent with Carter's character. Personally, I'm fine with what she's been doing (the end of Affinity aside, of course), and I'll probably absolutely love Gemini, however I disagree with the way the writers have been handling the character, as well as how they've dealt with AT's misgivings towards Sam. :rolleyes: Just because I dig the direction the character is taking doesn't mean others do, and I really do respect and appreciate that. *shrugs*

Whatever. I've trusted them in the past, and I will continue to trust them in the future. I just hope they know what potential detriment their doing to the reputation of a really cool and integral character. :o

Albion
December 15th, 2004, 12:20 AM
Well, I liked it. Big thumbsup from this viewer. I knew that RepliCarter was playing both sides of the field - let's face it if she turned out good where's the fun in that? :p But the scenes at the end where she went stalking through the Alpha Site on her way to the Stargate, taking out everyone in her path, were very cool. AT did a really good job with the differences between them, I think. They were subtle but definitely there. And the final conversation between them was beautifully done with excellent dialogue and a real sparkle of malice in RepliCarter's eyes.

What did I love? Well, Jack's 'If only' of course and his sheepish little cough when Carter responded to that remark. LOL. Carter and Teal'c working together - which I really just adore and hope to see much more of in future episodes. Even though Teal'c didn't really have that much to do except point a gun and look mean. But his repeated concern for Carter was nice to see.

Really enjoyed the memory scene that RepliCarter shared with Sam - very well done. Did kind of chuckle at Daniel turning up in the episode again just long enough to be taken out by 'Carter'. <g> I agree, btw, with the previous poster in their explanation of RepliCarter using Sam's feelings for Jack to elict empathy. Also, don't forget that at one point in the episode RepliCarter tells Sam, "It's more than sharing a memory. You know what he did to me because he did it to you, didn't he?" (paraphrasing from memory, but that was the gist. So it doesn't seem out of character to me that Carter felt more sympathy for RepliCarter than Jack or Teal'c. It was partly bound up in her own memories of being tortured by Fifth. That kind of thing has to leave a permanent emotional scar. Too, we were told at several points in the episode that RepliCarter 'understood' Sam, 'knew' Sam, had her thoughts and feelings and memories going right back to childhood, before Sam met Fifth. And that she therefore had a unique perspective on who Sam was and how she would react/respond to any event. If you know someone that well, it's not difficult to manipulate them.

Also loved the scene with Teal'c trying to drag RepliCarter back out of the wormhole and that arm. LOL. His face when it came away from her body was priceless. And that moment when she suddenly popped back out to glare at him was kind of spooky.

Really liked the end scene, too. Loved the expression on Jack's face when he started to reassure Carter that it wasn't her fault and she interrupted him, clearly not in the mood to give up blaming herself. It was a nice team scene - but I did wish it had included Daniel. It was at that point especially that I missed him in this one.

Little quibbles which distracted me? Carter being dumb enough to walk into the line of fire between the soldier with the gun and RepliCarter twice while she was talking to someone. Carter should know better - big military no no to get between the gun and the person it's being aimed at really. I know that throughout she was less than enthused about the gun being pointed at RepliCarter anyway and obviously wasn't thinking of her as a potential threat, but still, it slightly bugged me.

And the Mystery of the Vanishing Archaelogist. Which was very puzzling and distracted me all the way through trying to figure it out. The walk and talk with Daniel and Sam right at the start of the episode was pretty pointless. It seemed to have little reason to be there. Which isn't to say I didn't enjoy just watching them, because I did. Daniel was especially cute. <g>. But the perfect reason for it to be there would seem to be to casually drop in an explanation of why Daniel walked into the elevator on base and then disappeared for an entire episode. But I didn't hear that in the conversation. Far as I know there was zip on that. (I might find I'm wrong and missed it on further viewings, but can't see how). So that it wasn't mentioned was rather strange. Apparently, you can't hear "unscheduled offworld activation" in the base elevators. Bit of an oversight those military bods might want to look into. ;)

Was also kind of surprised to hear Daniel say "It's Atlantis. It's what we've been working for for seven and a half years." (paraphrasing from memory there). Didn't think they'd even known Atlantis was out there for that long, let alone been looking for it. :rolleyes:

Jack seemed a little superfluous - once again his dialogue just wasn't sharp enough to be either greatly amusing or add much in the way of dramatic tension

Think that was it. And those are minor quibbles. None of that was enough to really distract me from thoroughly enjoying a really good episode. And one that I'll watch again (in fact am looking forward to watching again later today)

BTW - did anyone else wonder why Teal'c was wearing that knowing, smug smile in the teaser, when they were watching the monitor and trying to figure out what was going on? I could see that expression coming on after that little interaction between Jack and Sam (when Jack leaned too close while trying to see the screen better). But it seemed strange being there before that moment. What was Teal'c finding so amusing at that point? It seemed like an editing mistake to me - dropping in the clip of Teal'c's smile too early. It just looked...odd.


But, I must say, I find it kind of... odd... that so many people commented about the lack of Daniel. Was it that overwhelmingly obvious?

Well, let's see. He walked into an elevator on base in the teaser and was never seen again. <g> Apart from a brief two seconds in the scene where RepliCarter showed Sam a memory of Fifth making her take part in a 'holodeck' scenario where she took out the gateroom. Poor Siler got to do his Dying Swan act again, too. <g> But, still, as others have said - we'll get lots of him next week. If he ever gets out of that elevator he was apparently stuck in all week... You know, I'm half expecting him to turn up next week going, "Hey, guys, didn't you hear me banging on that elevator door all week, trying to get out?"

I really think it was more the fact that - unless I really missed something obvious - there was no explanation given for his absence that bugged me. If there'd just been a line or two I'd have forgotten it at the teaser, instead of spending the entire episode trying to figure out where he'd gone and why he wasn't apparently at all interested in an offworld activation or a RepliCarter turning up...

And was I imagining things? I could have sworn that last week, several SG sites had a photo of Sam and Daniel sitting at a conference table attached to the promo photos of this episode. It was captioned, "Carter and Daniel discuss the upcoming Prometheus mission" or some such. Now it's vanished. So I was either imagining it or it's been taken out because it's been realised it wasn't actually in the episode. I'm wondering if maybe this was the scene where Daniel's absence was alluded to and it was cut out of the episode? But that's just total speculation. Especially if I'm making it up and there was no photo. <G>

Albion :)

nalex1013
December 15th, 2004, 12:42 AM
The good:

1) RepliCarter hesitating about shooting jack

2) Bad Replicator at end

3) RepliCarter screwing over fifth after he totured poor Sam at start of season

4) She didn't even stop before shooting daniel (that was just amusing- poor dannie)

5) The "If only" line from jack

The Bad:
1) They just seemed to be holding back on the S/J thing ever so slightly

2) Replicators coming to our galaxie


I don't blame Sam for trusting her. She wouldn't expect herselt to be bad and she felt sorry for her being held prisoner by fifth and probably tortured like her

Imzadi
December 15th, 2004, 01:02 AM
Words cannot describe how much I loved this episode :D

Amanda Tapping was perfect as the naive, trusting Sam and evil, malicious RC. Like many I had a bit of a hard time with Sam trusting RC so easily, but RC sounded so convincing that even I would have believed her! I was a bit dissapointed that I could guess what was going to happen in the end, but it didn't hinder my enjoyment because I was just so engrossed by AT. I was also impressed by RDA's 'I just got shot' reaction (i've watch that bit several times and I still flinch).

For me, the best element of the whole episode was Replicarter's dialoge which I felt suited the character perfectly, especially when Sam and RC are talking inside RC's head.

On a shipper sidenote: I thought the scene in the control room at the beginning was very sweet ("if only"), and I liked that RC hesitated when faced with killing Jack (poor old Daniel doesn't get a break even in dream sequences!).

tara3583
December 15th, 2004, 01:29 AM
I don't blame Sam for trusting her. She wouldn't expect herselt to be bad and she felt sorry for her being held prisoner by fifth and probably tortured like her[/QUOTE]

That is what i thought and had no problem with how Sam delt with her but i do want to see how Sam will deal with the fall out from this, also
i think it's humanised Sam in my eyes that she
can be failable and make mistakes.

Kazan
December 15th, 2004, 01:44 AM
I don't blame Sam for trusting her. She wouldn't expect herselt to be bad and she felt sorry for her being held prisoner by fifth and probably tortured like her

That is what i thought and had no problem with how Sam delt with her but i do want to see how Sam will deal with the fall out from this, also
i think it's humanised Sam in my eyes that she
can be failable and make mistakes.


I Agree.
Wasn't it the whole point that Sam has human traits, feelings, emotions etc and that includes the inbuilt desire to want to see the best in someone and to trust them? With Sam especially, the character has this genuine honesty and positivity so to be confronted with a "copy" of herself wasn't it just in character for Sam to want to believe and trust RC.
(Honestly, I bet there isn't one person out there in R/L that hasn't put their faith / trust in someone and been let down at some point?!)

At the end, I just think the point was to draw out very clearly that there was the massive difference between the human traits of Sams character and the emotionally and ethically devoid traits of RC.

It'll be very interesting to see what effect this has on Sam going forward and how she deals with the fallout.

Albion
December 15th, 2004, 01:50 AM
i think it's humanised Sam in my eyes that she
can be failable and make mistakes.

Do you know, this point never occurred to me until I read your post? And here I've been, watching some earlier episodes lately and quietly bemoaning the fact that Sam's had a tendency to become infallible over the years and wishing we could see her make more mistakes rather than have everyone expect her to pull the rabbit out of the hat and her doing so repeatedly and constantly each week? Geez. Don't even notice when I get what I want. :rolleyes:

Thanks for pointing this out to me! I'll watch this one with even more enjoyment now as it balances all those episodes with InfallibleCarter. (Not that I hate any of those, but a little variety is always nice :) )

Albion :)

samjack4ever
December 15th, 2004, 02:34 AM
I don't blame Sam for trusting her. She wouldn't expect herselt to be bad and she felt sorry for her being held prisoner by fifth and probably tortured like her

That is what i thought and had no problem with how Sam delt with her but i do want to see how Sam will deal with the fall out from this, also
i think it's humanised Sam in my eyes that she
can be failable and make mistakes.I agree and think some are being a bit too hard on Sam and not giving RC enough credit.

First of all RC tells them that she wants to die because she can no longer bear to be with Fifth. Immediately Sam relates to this, as she can fully understand why. Also by stating that she wants to die doesn’t put SG1 on the defensive.



She also played on the fact that Sam didn’t want to see any ‘evil’ in herself. After all didn’t fifth recreated not only her physical form but her thoughts and feelings as well? If RC were evil and capable of evil doings, what would that say about Sam?

kodamawu
December 15th, 2004, 02:52 AM
i guess this finally answers the much debated question of why the asgard havent come to visit atlantis yet, im just wondering what happened to daniel. he goes up in the elevator right as the alarm goes off, he doesnt look too thrilled even at the idea of going to atlantis, and then he just disappears.

GateGipsy
December 15th, 2004, 03:27 AM
I thought Daniel was thrilled at the idea of going to Atlantis - it was the possibility that he might not be allowed to go. Even with Sam's reassurance that while Jack wouldn't let the whole team go, he'd probably be ok with just one of them on the Prometheus.

From the converstation, I took it that Prometheus Unbound was happening in the same time frame as Gemini, hence no Daniel. I expect that next week we won't see much if any Jack, Sam or Tealc. I don't think that I'm the only one who saw the episode that way?

I loved that Sam was taken in by Replicarter, I thought that was a good insight into Sam's character. Not that she is gullible, but for the first time I realised that Sam has never acknowledged that she might have a 'darkside'. That aspect of her personality came out in Replicarter, and one reason that Sam just didn't see it was that she was being blind to it. She didn't want to recognise that in herself, therefore she wasn't about to recognise it in Replicarter.

She wasn't 'too trusting', she was too quick to think of Replicarter as being the same as herself.

Within the context of the military, she can keep down that 'dark side' that likes the idea of power - in the air force there is a hierachy, and rules to follow. What would Sam be like if there wasn't that framework around her? Would she be more arrogant, less capable of compassion, and more ambitious in terms of power? Would she have been far more likely to have used her incredible intelligence for her own personal gain?

These are all incredibly uncomfortable questions that Sam must be asking herself now, and I'm glad. It was about time she got taken outside her comfort zone!

michelleb
December 15th, 2004, 03:29 AM
I doubt that was referring to Jack or her own intelligence. I think the more likely explaination is that it refers to her abilities to use Goa'uld technology from her experiance with Jolinar. She is always loathed to use the ribbon device or the healing device.


Yes, she used a few times earlier on, but sonce then, she hasn't used her tok'ra abilities at all. I thought the writers had forgotten she could use a hand device.

I think the whole 'you obey the rules, do as you're told, and repress your desires' refers not just to jack, or her tok'ra side, or the times she's obeyed orders against her better judgement, but to all aspects of her life. as she points out, RC is her....just with a different life. She could have become as manipulative, cunning, and powerful as Replicarter, if things had been different in her life.

And..I think Replicarter was a brilliant villain. AT played her with this cool amusement, and a passion for power that fitted perfectly. I think she could easily become one of the top five Stargate villains.

AlphaBlu
December 15th, 2004, 03:33 AM
I loved that episode. I love episodes where we don't win.

BYE

michelleb
December 15th, 2004, 03:38 AM
From the converstation, I took it that Prometheus Unbound was happening in the same time frame as Gemini, hence no Daniel. I expect that next week we won't see much if any Jack, Sam or Tealc. I don't think that I'm the only one who saw the episode that way?

yes, i saw it that way too...he would have been back at base, supporting sam, at least at the end, if he'd been there.



I loved that Sam was taken in by Replicarter, I thought that was a good insight into Sam's character. Not that she is gullible, but for the first time I realised that Sam has never acknowledged that she might have a 'darkside'. That aspect of her personality came out in Replicarter, and one reason that Sam just didn't see it was that she was being blind to it. She didn't want to recognise that in herself, therefore she wasn't about to recognise it in Replicarter.

there have been times when sam has hinted at a darkside..of how far she could go when pushed. i'm thinking of the way she killed seth, and the time she almost shot hammond when she left o'neill back on the planet and he refused to let her go back for me. she does have a darkness, like anyone, but liek you say, she always refused to acknowledge it. now, she not only has to acknowledge it, but accept that it is partly responsible for making Replicarter who she is.


What would Sam be like if there wasn't that framework around her? Would she be more arrogant, less capable of compassion, and more ambitious in terms of power? Would she have been far more likely to have used her incredible intelligence for her own personal gain?

These are all incredibly uncomfortable questions that Sam must be asking herself now, and I'm glad. It was about time she got taken outside her comfort zone!


More reckless and careless certainly...like in Space Race. Maybe not less compassionate..sam did have the love of her family, and whereas RC remembers that, her only real family has been fifth..not exactly a good role model. IN AU's where sam hasn't been in the military, she's still been good and kind (and a bit wet, actually, i much prefer military sam, shooting the big guns and beating up the bad guys with both hands tied behind her back). but i think she could be a lot more manipulative, and a lot more capable of bending or breaking rules to get her own way...like blackmailing wier in New Order.

but she can't hide her darkside and pretend she's all sweetness and light forever. (and i think pete is part of that..marrrying a man who's never seen her kill anyone, or even really seen her in uniform, and seems unaware of her vast intelligence..part of her trying to prove to herself that she's a normal woman), and i think seeing Replicarter will show her her darkside, and she'll have ti decide whether to face it and use it, or hide it even more

keppiezbt
December 15th, 2004, 05:13 AM
now that RC can counter the ancient weapon (the msot advanced peice of tech out ther), any idea how we can beat the replicators now?

They have been playing this arc since season 4 and i like how they have evolved it, though i am a little torn b/c on the one hand it was nice to see it finally end using ancient tech and have the asgard rebuild so they can play bigger role but on the other hand, after thinking about it, this gives this whole arc a new twist.
especially since (spoliers, highlight to read): the replicators start fighint the gouald in reckoning. but it begs the question, how can we really defeat them. IMO, i think they need to end this arc in season 9 (its been going on for a long time) with some big battles..cool space ones, some land ones..in a big 2 parter...that would do it justice...just like reckoning 2 parter does the baal arc justice (hopefully)

tara3583
December 15th, 2004, 05:23 AM
I think imho that we all have a darkside to us but that is balanced by what we feel is right.
Replicarter has no qalms about using this to get to Sam thus causing Sam to (i hope) to reflet on having this painfully shoved in front
of her.

Watching rep/carter at the end and how femine and cold she was really made me sit up and think what a great "badie" she will make and just how much torment she will bring to Sam and in turn through Sam to the rest of the SGC and especialy Jack.

Once again i take my hat off to Amanda for such a great job and whoever wrote it in the first place, bravo!! nicely done:)

Ancients Rising
December 15th, 2004, 06:28 AM
Replicarter's brethren are immune to the disruptor...so we won't be seeing the Asgard in Pegasus for a while then....

They'll have to come up with another weapon using the Ancients knowledge, suppose they will.

I was wondering why Replicarter didn't destroy the whole Alpha site before she left?

As has been said by many already, great acting by AT in this ep. :)

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 07:23 AM
Like many I had a bit of a hard time with Sam trusting RC so easily

It seems very simple to me. Child's play, even. Infant, for that matter. Class, pop quiz. Who do you NEVER give access to the only weapon that can control a replicator to? A. Ronald McDonald B. you're dentist C. a replicator. Complete failure if you get it wrong. Did you have a hand raised, Betty Boo? No, it doesn't matter if the replicator looks like you. Johnny Joe? Yes, the replicator might be lying. There's a very good chance. Okay, good luck with the quiz, although if you get this answer wrong, you'll need more than luck to help you.


On a shipper sidenote: I thought the scene in the control room at the beginning was very sweet ("if only"), and I liked that RC hesitated when faced with killing Jack (poor old Daniel doesn't get a break even in dream sequences!).

And, this, among other things (which would be off topic here) is why I hate ship. Fifth was using Sam's feelings and memories when he made RC, so I guess I have to accept the fact that when push comes to shove, she doesn't give a **** about Daniel (and I'm sure if Teal'c had been in the dream, he would have gotten blasted away too without a second thought) but it's so hard for her to shoot Sir, the guy she wants to boink. Oh, wait. It's because she loves him. (imagine sarcasm. Multiply by 3000) I didn't know "loving" one person means that the only person you show any sign of caring to is them. I had no idea that "love" limited a person to such a narrow vision. And, saying it was only a dream, or only the RC and doesn't really have anything to do with how Sam feels about people who've stood by her side for 8 freaking years doesn't cut it. In that case, it's just as easily said that it's not a true telling of her "feelings" for Jack. If I have to believe one, I have to believe the other. And, this is supposed to be romantic? Pass out the cheap champagne and arsenic laced Valentine's candy!

DetriusXii
December 15th, 2004, 07:45 AM
now that RC can counter the ancient weapon (the msot advanced peice of tech out ther), any idea how we can beat the replicators now?

They have been playing this arc since season 4 and i like how they have evolved it, though i am a little torn b/c on the one hand it was nice to see it finally end using ancient tech and have the asgard rebuild so they can play bigger role but on the other hand, after thinking about it, this gives this whole arc a new twist.
especially since (spoliers, highlight to read): the replicators start fighint the gouald in reckoning. but it begs the question, how can we really defeat them. IMO, i think they need to end this arc in season 9 (its been going on for a long time) with some big battles..cool space ones, some land ones..in a big 2 parter...that would do it justice...just like reckoning 2 parter does the baal arc justice (hopefully)


a) Well from what I got out of it, the Ancient weapon could still be viable. When Jack originally constructed it, it could have been designed to operate at whatever frequency with a bandwidth spread the replicators communicate at and overload the communication between the blocks. Replicarter may have just change the Replicators communication frequency so it may only be a temporary immunity to the Ancient weapon until Sam can study Replicarters' blocks.

b) The universe is screwed.... screwed... screwed. The Replicators are small, can create new blocks out of virtually anything, and can adapt to any technology. They don't suffer from the politics that organic races do and as so, don't have to worry about overpopulation. And the only weapon that was capable of placing population control on the Replicators is now ineffective against them.

Chlex
December 15th, 2004, 08:09 AM
Pass out the cheap champagne and arsenic laced Valentine's candy!

Oi, um... well I'm a shipper, but in some twisted way I agree with you.

I never really thought that S/J's 'feelings' would ever get in the way of what needed to be done, but this is a classic example of how things went wrong. RC knew that Jack would trust Carter. Even though he took the back door and asked Teal'c about her, in what I assume was an attempt to spare her feelings, he let her have her way. He should have just asked her right there if she was getting too involved... but he didn't. I guess it's because for the last 8 seasons Sam's always been right about these things.

The whole part where RC was shooting up the gateroom was just Fifth's screwed up little test, right? I don't think she felt indifferent when she shot Daniel, but I figured it was more of a reflex 'shoot first' kinda thing. When she turned to see Jack he knew she was going to kill him and maybe that's what brought about the angsty moment. Then again it might have had something to do with Sam's feelings for Jack and she just... couldn't... do it. Up until Fifth came around that is. Again, that's from my perspective, and I like to read into things... so if Jack so much as sneezed in Sam's direction I'd take it as a proposal.

Anyway, ship was definitely not the most important thing in this eppy. Amanda Tapping did such an amazing job! She honestly made me feel terrible about the crap Fifth was putting RC through... then all of a sudden she was the Replicator who wanted to take over the universe. The whole thing was seamless, very well put together. Sam trusted RC, and everyone else trusted Sam. It makes sense how everything went bad so quickly. But did Sam honestly think Jack would let her bring a Replicator back to the SGC? I'm just glad Teal'c was around.

The whole 'mistake' thing was neccessary though. If the Replicators could be destroyed so easily then they'd be pretty pathetic. Now of course, they're the most eeevil creatures in the universe! Gotta love this idea. :)

pittsburghgirl
December 15th, 2004, 08:10 AM
The "little bald guy" was on NCIS yesterday.

Rosemary

Thor's Gunner
December 15th, 2004, 09:09 AM
I personally thought it was very predictable and though AT did well at acting, carter herself was very stupid, i was hoping for O'neilo to shove that disrupter straight through her as soon as she walked through the gate. They are now very screwed unless Jackson or the asgard find some tech or a way around it.

Elite Anubis Guard
December 15th, 2004, 09:22 AM
it was really good, some nice development on evil carter, and some nice development on carter, and i can imagine it becomin a nice episode later on!

Tok'Ra Hostess
December 15th, 2004, 09:54 AM
My thoughts before reading yours:

Excellent ep.

It was the kind of ep that kept me trying to work out what was going on(and always glad to be wrong, wrong, wrong! :D),what ace tactic Jack was hiding up his sleeve(I was sure he and Thor had arranged to have an uncompromised replicater satilite gun (cloaked, of course) as backup. I expected a Kawalski move when RepSam was in the event horizon, but they did something way cooler. kudos!

And the shippers rejoiced.... :) You guys must be in Nirvana with this ep. As a neutral observer I thought the ship was well done and tasteful.

I loved the tiny insights into Sam's past, and the burden she carries with her, from Unnatural Selection through to New Order and now with Gemini and whatever ep(s?) is/are sure to continue this arc.

I wonder what MS was doing to preclude him from this ep? I'm sure I get an eyeful about this when I read all the posts, so, off I go....:)

the dancer of spaz
December 15th, 2004, 09:58 AM
... Fifth was using Sam's feelings and memories when he made RC, so I guess I have to accept the fact that when push comes to shove, she doesn't give a **** about Daniel (and I'm sure if Teal'c had been in the dream, he would have gotten blasted away too without a second thought)...

I understand your frustration. Based on what I've been reading, it does seem like she was a little too quick to shoot Daniel, and, though I'm a shipper, I'd like to think that RepliCarter would have some strong residual feelings for Daniel and Teal'c that would keep her from annihilating them... To be honest, I think the writers made that so incredibly pronounced to suggest ship to those who are unfamiliar with the ship arc (yes, it's a story arc, and no one can tell me any different - sorry :o ), but that's just me.

In the world of SG-1, as a team, as a group of friends, and as a family, I would also like to think that Sam would treat all three of the guys equally...
*Shrugs*

RepliCarter, on the other hand, while evil, may have a harder time reconciling strong brotherly feelings of love and the other... kind... ;)

Does that make sense?

Probably not. :P

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 10:03 AM
Then again it might have had something to do with Sam's feelings for Jack and she just... couldn't... do it.

Repeat my earlier rant.

Anyway, ship was definitely not the most important thing in this eppy. Amanda Tapping did such an amazing job!

You can't imagine exactly to what degree I hate the ship. Even as a blink and you'll miss it, it's too much for me. Unless I just happened to blink! But, I'm not saying that has any bearing on AT's acting.


The whole 'mistake' thing was neccessary though. If the Replicators could be destroyed so easily then they'd be pretty pathetic. Now of course, they're the most eeevil creatures in the universe! Gotta love this idea. :)

Couldn't they have found a better way to do it? One that didn't compromise the intelligence of Sam?


To be honest, I think the writers made that so incredibly pronounced to suggest ship to those who are unfamiliar with the ship arc

If that's the case, then a little word of advice to them. Please, please, please, never try your hands at romantic comedy or romantic drama. A dark parody of a romance? Maybe. A tragic tale of how selfish desire disguised as love could destroy people? Be my guest. It could make a great story. But, I just don't think straight romance is their forte.

veneticuss
December 15th, 2004, 10:04 AM
Well, a good ep where TPTB put replicators back in game. SO maybe no more Human vs. Goauld but live beings agaist machines in S9?? :)

Elite Anubis Guard
December 15th, 2004, 10:07 AM
yeh that made sense, interesting way of thinking off it.

anyone else notice the ammount of star trek references they keep slapping in

Ugly Pig
December 15th, 2004, 10:27 AM
Yay, SG-1 is back! And here's


PIGGY'S USELESS OPINION
of 'Gemini'

Not bad. I guess it probably didn't come as a surprise to anyone that Replicarter wasn't the goodie-goodie she pretended to be, but I didn't expect that she was double-crossing Fifth as well. And now he's dead! Really didn't see that one coming.

Of course, now we're back to square one with the replicators. They're on the loose, and we have no way of stopping them. Only now they're in our galaxy and led by Replicarter. Yikes! I hope the writers do have a plan for dealing with them later on. We can't have the series end with the replicators hell-bent on universal domination, can we?

Random observations!
- What happened to Daniel after the teaser? Does he go to Atlantis or not? And what ship were they planning on using to get there (notice they never did mention a name!)?
- By the way, this is the first mention of Atlantis on SG-1 since 'Stargate Atlantis' began. Woohoo, tie-in!
- This is the first time this season that I've seen the full end credits. The end credits theme has been severely shortened since last season, it's now as short as the Atlantis end credits theme (which is ~23 seconds long).
- Executive Producers Joe & Paul? When did this happen? Do their credit at the end mean they're show-runners now?

Vyse
December 15th, 2004, 10:27 AM
yeh that made sense, interesting way of thinking off it.

anyone else notice the ammount of star trek references they keep slapping in

Yeah, it's actually kinda getting annoying (except for McKay's line on Atlantis's Sanctuary when he says Oh my God, he is Kirk, referring to Sheppard. Hilarious!). The whole sub-space link was a complete steal from The Borg, then again the Replicators have always been a little similar to the Borg, well until Voyager made the Borg easily beatable. Hopefully that won't happen with the Replicators, and it looks like it won't :D !

the dancer of spaz
December 15th, 2004, 10:36 AM
*Eyes glaze over at the abundance of Star Trek references.* Ha... I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but I trust you. :P

I guess Joe and Paul have been slowly making their way up the ladder (though it's a short and elite ladder these days), and now are "show-runners."

Interesting development... and timing... Hmmm... I guess we'll see how that pans out for the next season(s). :cool:


Oh and, by the way, does anyone have any transcripts? :) ;) :P :D
Heh heh... Sorry. I couldn't resist.

Elite Anubis Guard
December 15th, 2004, 10:38 AM
thje referecnes do get annoying at times but most of funny like oneill wanting to name 303 enterprise

Shipperahoy
December 15th, 2004, 10:39 AM
I realize that they had to make the Replicators a threat again and I'm glad they made Replicarter a little more layered then being just a copy of Sam but did they have to do it at the expense of Sam's intelligence and professionalism? I realize that they're human and that people make mistakes but this mistake was sooo glaring. And everyone could see it but her. And I blame Jack too for letting it go as long as he did. And the bit with Replicarter being "conditioned" by Fifth galls me to no end. I don't for a second believe that Sam would put Jack ahead of her teammates, especially not so glibly but the way it was presented sure makes it look that way.

The only good thing that may come from Sam's, well there's just no other way to say it, incompetance is that maybe we'll get to see Sam learn and grow from her mistake. Maybe this will turn her into more of a seasoned leader. I hope.

Madeleine
December 15th, 2004, 10:41 AM
Nothing I've read excuses Sam's idiocy.

She wanted to trust Replicarter? Of course, who wouldn't want to believe something modelled on themself would be Good. No error there.

She thought Replicarter's tale was credible? Well fair enough, it was credible, and RC designed it to be credible. No error there.

But she put so much faith in RC that she'd hand over the schematics to the weapon and practically give her full access to the alphasite computers? Idiot. However much she might want to trust the Replicator she has *no right* to gamble Earth's security on the chance that a Replicator (created and tutored by an amoral power-mad replicator) might not be lying. No right at all. No one has the right to gamble Earth's security on a whim like that.

She's got no right to believe a word that the RC says. Any Replicator can... replicate. She was there when Reese nearly took over hte SGC, and RC was always going to be more powerful, cunning and knowledgeable than Reese.

RC claims to have Carter's memories? Believe it, Sam, because that is a worst case scenario. RC claims to have Carter's exact feelings? Oh please! Fifth was slightly more likely to build a Carter that would want to support him than one that was truly imbued with the feelings of the original, surely. Fifth may be trusting but he's not an idiot. Unlike Carter.

AAAARGH. She told a replicator how to defeat the anti-replicator gun. She's an idiot.

Lunar
December 15th, 2004, 10:43 AM
Yeah, Madeline, I really agree with you here. I felt really down at the end of the ep, because Sam's character has, imo, had quite a tough season. I feel like she's being dragged through the mud on a personal and professional level.
It feels less like character development than character destruction.
Still, I did like this ep! :)

Madeleine
December 15th, 2004, 10:45 AM
I've felt that she's been doing okay for the first half of the season, although we haven't really seen her in command yet and I think we should. This one came as a real surprise cos if there's one thing I can trust TPTB to get right it's making Sam not be an idiot when it comes to matters of planetary security.

Vyse
December 15th, 2004, 10:53 AM
Nothing I've read excuses Sam's idiocy.

She wanted to trust Replicarter? Of course, who wouldn't want to believe something modelled on themself would be Good. No error there.

She thought Replicarter's tale was credible? Well fair enough, it was credible, and RC designed it to be credible. No error there.

But she put so much faith in RC that she'd hand over the schematics to the weapon and practically give her full access to the alphasite computers? Idiot. However much she might want to trust the Replicator she has *no right* to gamble Earth's security on the chance that a Replicator (created and tutored by an amoral power-mad replicator) might not be lying. No right at all. No one has the right to gamble Earth's security on a whim like that.

She's got no right to believe a word that the RC says. Any Replicator can... replicate. She was there when Reese nearly took over hte SGC, and RC was always going to be more powerful, cunning and knowledgeable than Reese.

RC claims to have Carter's memories? Believe it, Sam, because that is a worst case scenario. RC claims to have Carter's exact feelings? Oh please! Fifth was slightly more likely to build a Carter that would want to support him than one that was truly imbued with the feelings of the original, surely. Fifth may be trusting but he's not an idiot. Unlike Carter.

AAAARGH. She told a replicator how to defeat the anti-replicator gun. She's an idiot.

I agree, it also pissed me off that Jack simply didn't end it, he just went along with Carter. Then at the end he was like it's not your fault, IT WAS HER FAULT, HELLO!! All Jack wanted was to try and get some info. out of her, which was fine, but then show her every bit of information on the new weapon was ridiculois. Also, this has been mentioned but why didn't Replicarter simply blow up the Alpha Site after leaving. Also she should have been able to throw Teal'c away at the end easily, Teal'c wouldn't have been able to hold her that long, therefore they shouldn't have had the new Replicator blocks. Finally, I thought the blocks making up the Human Replicators were microscopic, so how could they be picked up like that?

Ugly Pig
December 15th, 2004, 10:56 AM
I really didn't think Sam was being stupid in this episode. I mean, think about it, Replicarter came to her telling her she wanted to die. She practically begged Teal'c to kill her. That's pretty convincing, if you ask me.

Vyse
December 15th, 2004, 10:58 AM
I really didn't think Sam was being stupid in this episode. I mean, think about it, Replicarter came to her telling her she wanted to die. She practically begged Teal'c to kill her. That's pretty convincing, if you ask me.

She was stupid for showing a Replicator the schematics for the weapon. Everything before that I understand, but I thought that was sheer stupidity. It is nice to see that Carter isn't perfect once in a while, sometimes it seems that way. Too bad Teal'c didn't simply kill her, then the weapon would still be effective!

the dancer of spaz
December 15th, 2004, 10:58 AM
Yeah... I'm totally experiencing this ep vicariously through you guys, but from what I've read, all of your annoyance/anger/confusion seems justified.

Just one question: Wasn't there a line at the end of the ep, where Sam said something like, "The fact is, she learned betrayal from Fifth, and he learned it from me?"

It sounds like a lot of people are right in the sense that she's gonna have a LOT to think about when it comes to how her actions helped RepliCarter gain control.

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 11:00 AM
Too bad Teal'c didn't simply kill her, then the weapon would still be effective!

ROTFL!! It could have been like the Indiana Jones thing with the ninja waving the knives around and Indy just calmly shoots him. No muss, no fuss, and made for a great scene. :D

the dancer of spaz
December 15th, 2004, 11:01 AM
I agree, it also pissed me off that Jack simply didn't end it, he just went along with Carter. Then at the end he was like it's not your fault, IT WAS HER FAULT, HELLO!! All Jack wanted was to try and get some info. out of her, which was fine, but then show her every bit of information on the new weapon was ridiculois. Also, this has been mentioned but why didn't Replicarter simply blow up the Alpha Site after leaving...

So it's Sam's AND Jack's fault?

Vyse
December 15th, 2004, 11:02 AM
ROTFL!! It could have been like the Indiana Jones thing with the ninja waving the knives around and Indy just calmly shoots him. No muss, no fuss, and made for a great scene. :D

lol, exactly :D !

Vyse
December 15th, 2004, 11:03 AM
So it's Sam's AND Jack's fault?

Yeah it really was both their faults. I just hated that line, it should have been something like we all screw up sometimes.

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 11:06 AM
Just one question: Wasn't there a line at the end of the ep, where Sam said something like, "The fact is, she learned betrayal from Fifth, and he learned it from me?"

It sounds like a lot of people are right in the sense that she's gonna have a LOT to think about when it comes to how her actions helped RepliCarter gain control.

I have problems with that, too. I mean, okay, maybe Fifth did learn betrayal from her before, but the replicators have always been their enemy. It was her actions in this episode that made it her fault, and didn't they just gloss over that?

the dancer of spaz
December 15th, 2004, 11:25 AM
I have problems with that, too. I mean, okay, maybe Fifth did learn betrayal from her before, but the replicators have always been their enemy. It was her actions in this episode that made it her fault, and didn't they just gloss over that?

Hmmm... I don't know if I agree with that. RepliCarter was who she was BEFORE she came to Earth. Sam's actions seemed to hasten RepliCarter's plan, but she came to Earth with the agenda and the plan to manipulate. Carter can't control that. The result may be their faults (all of their faults, if you ask me), but RepliCarter's motives were because of Fifth.

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 11:33 AM
Hmmm... I don't know if I agree with that. RepliCarter was who she was BEFORE she came to Earth. Sam's actions seemed to hasten RepliCarter's plan, but she came to Earth with the agenda and the plan to manipulate. Carter can't control that. The result may be their faults (all of their faults, if you ask me), but RepliCarter's motives were because of Fifth.

Well, I did say that the replicators have always been their enemy. But, if someone came up to me with an agenda to shoot me, and I hand them a gun, it's my fault. Doesn't matter that they had the idea before. I'm not saying RC's motives are Sam's fault, but the fact that they lost the weapon against them is absolutely Sam's fault. She's the one who have RC access! And, she shouldn't be told that she didn't do anything wrong. She did something wrong.

Thor's Gunner
December 15th, 2004, 11:52 AM
There'll be a mixture between the two but i think this series is going to be focusing more on the replicators. In the past they've flicked on and off from them. I also heard there was supposed to be an encounter between the Goa'uld and the Replicators. Be interresting...

It was a good dramatical ep,but nowhere near one of the best in my opinion. These eps are essential to give us an insight to each characters development, but they are never as good as the more....violent ones...

the dancer of spaz
December 15th, 2004, 11:57 AM
Well, I did say that the replicators have always been their enemy. But, if someone came up to me with an agenda to shoot me, and I hand them a gun, it's my fault. Doesn't matter that they had the idea before. I'm not saying RC's motives are Sam's fault, but the fact that they lost the weapon against them is absolutely Sam's fault. She's the one who have RC access! And, she shouldn't be told that she didn't do anything wrong. She did something wrong.

Did Sam give RC access to the weapon without Jack's permission? Did Sam make the final decision to meet RepliCarter at the Alpha Site? Because, if that was the case, I could understand this whole-hearted belief that Sam was wrong. However, she does have a CO, who apparently trusted RepliCarter enough to give her access as well. He's just as at fault.

Sam was sympathetic to RC's... deal. How many times have they been in these situations, where their compassion or quest to bring right to the galaxy
has backfired? Daniel and Sam - mostly Daniel - have always been on the sympathetic side.

Let's face it, this all started at Unnatural Selection, when Jack ordered Sam to betray Fifth. While I am of the belief that they had no other choice, I still think that was the catalyst. And, frankly, I think Fifth would have gone to the darkside anyway, sooner or later. The fact of the matter is, everyone makes mistakes. They do what they think is right, but sometimes it's not right. Look at The Other Side, for instance, or half a dozen other Stargate eps. It's the way things go. Hammond, O'Neill, and Carter have been wrong many, many times before, putting Earth's safety in jeopardy on numerous occasions. Was it avoidable? Probably so. Understandable? Absolutely.

Basically, all I'm saying is, there is a Chain of Command for a reason. If Sam didn't directly or indirectly disobey Jack's orders (which I haven't read that she has, but maybe I'm wrong), then she's not the only one at fault.

We can just consider this yet another one of SG-1's Galactical mistakes, and call it a day.

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 12:06 PM
You're right, Jack does share blame as her commanding officer. And, I don't see how other situations or what other people have done have any bearing on what Sam did now. If they've been sympathetic to people before that doesn't negate what happened here. Sam gave a replicator access to the only weapon that can destroy them. I don't see how that can be tap danced around. She did it, she shouldn't have done it. Regardless of what RC wanted to do. And, Sam sure should have had the common sense to consider that RC might want to preserve herself and not want to die. Never trust your enemy to be truthful. So, Jack is at fault, but I don't see how anyone can say that Sam giving access to the only weapon that can destroy a replicator to a replicator isn't her fault. RC could have had all the premeditated desires in the galaxy, and maybe she would have found some other means for accomplishing her goal, but if Sam had been smart, it wouldn't have happened because of Sam.

Sam did something wrong. Yes, people make mistakes, and some of us are criticizing Sam for this mistake.

Crazedwraith
December 15th, 2004, 12:09 PM
Very nice episode. Figured out DSma ws gonan double cross fifth practically first time fifth appeared. Crappy exit but there have been worse. Anubis TLC exit comes to mind.

A couple of minor nitpick: 1) Why was it so hard for Replicarter to shoot Jack when she mowed dannyboi down no problems? Damn ship.
2) Why the hell to people thing not having the disruptore makes the replicators unstoppable. You can still just shoot the vast majority of them. ANs their can't be that many Human forms. Hvae they even explored other options? Such as flame throwers? replicator cells are small enough they should be easy to overheat. Also what about extreme high epxlosive, grenades, EM pulses? there are doozens of possible ways to kill human forms that they don't even seem to have touched upon.

P.S How big is this thread already? We brits arn't THAT chatty :D

Watters87
December 15th, 2004, 12:12 PM
I don't think Sam was stupid. I think you need to take into account that what if the stuff Replicarter was saying was true, that Fifth found a way to nullify the effects. What good would have been the weapon then?

Ugly Pig
December 15th, 2004, 12:13 PM
Hey, did anyone notice that this was the first replicator episode not to feature any old-school replicators whatsoever?

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 12:16 PM
P.S How big is this thread already? We brits arn't THAT chatty :D


A few of us Yanks have snuck in :D

Thor's Gunner
December 15th, 2004, 12:16 PM
Your right about Jack sharing the blame, but he didnt trust RC, he trusted Carter to deal with it, and she let her emotions stand in the way, still everyone makes mistakes. And O'neil and Carter have a kind of secret passion with each other if you recall so it makes him harder to kill for her. They'll find a way around the whole thing though they always do, we really arent that chatty, theres just alot of us:D.

Token
December 15th, 2004, 12:22 PM
Yeah... I'm totally experiencing this ep vicariously through you guys, but from what I've read, all of your annoyance/anger/confusion seems justified.

Just one question: Wasn't there a line at the end of the ep, where Sam said something like, "The fact is, she learned betrayal from Fifth, and he learned it from me?"

It sounds like a lot of people are right in the sense that she's gonna have a LOT to think about when it comes to how her actions helped RepliCarter gain control.That is the line that has really stuck with me. I'm hoping the "betrayal" theme is an overall story arc for this season that will be resolved. TPTB have been writing it from "Unnatural Selection" "New Order" and now "Gemini".

As bad as Sam's decisions seem to be to me, I'm hoping TPTB are bringing the story to a full circle; and I, as a fan, can enjoy the completed ride. JMHO. :S

Thor's Gunner
December 15th, 2004, 12:27 PM
The problem is they have to tie the domination of Ba'al over the system Lords ect. and the replicators into one now, which might or might not be tricky. They've delved into several dif programs to get this new story line as people have been saying, star trek, battlestar galactica, so im wondering if they are going to do a similiar development to those shows. I think RC will have a face off with either same or O'Neil or something.

Lunar
December 15th, 2004, 12:31 PM
I'm not saying RC's motives are Sam's fault, but the fact that they lost the weapon against them is absolutely Sam's fault. She's the one who have RC access! And, she shouldn't be told that she didn't do anything wrong. She did something wrong.
I've rewatched the ep on Sky mix. You know, if you watch from the position of Sam, it becomes easier to understand why she made the (admittedly stupid) mistakes she did. They were choiceless, or believed themselves to be. Replicarter's 'kill me now!' approach at the beginning is terribly convincing. Carter was tortured by Fifth and knows how it affected her personally... Replicarter she believes to be almost exactly like her (the bit with the rain and the willow tree memory).
Yes, it was dumb to show her the weapon with hindsight, but they believed they were dead anyway. From their point of view they had nothing to lose.
You know, it's a pretty unique situation, a member of SG-1 screws up. It's not something that's often dealt with by tptb, and I think I'm glad it was, on reflection. Wish it hadn't been Sam's character that it had to happen to (because she's had a lot of negative characterisation this season and has, at some times, seemed like a hate figure to a lot of fans. I recall at one point her being labelled 'Sam the Wonderdrip.' :rolleyes: ) but I think it was an issue worth addressing.
And telling her she was dead wrong would achieve what, exactly?
Probably driving her completely mad with guilt about potentially destroying the world and removing the only chance they have of stopping RC? Remember, as RC thinks like Sam, Sam thinks like RC. Carter is a major asset in the fight against the bugs, she's probably the only one who's likely to figure out how to break the cypher (if that's the way things are going to go). Ultimately, the buck stops with Jack. He could have ordered her to kill RC, flat out, right now. He didn't. He must have consented to letting RC work on the weapon (he's Carter's CO. No way would she have been able to do something so dangerous without his clearance.) Teal'c didn't stop her either.
The blame doesn't lie with Carter alone, and telling her that wouldn't be productive.
I have trouble believing you'd be so angry and quick to blame Daniel if he had been in Sam's position (because personally, if he'd been there, I think he would have agreed with Sam).
Feel free to red rep me all you want! ;)

the dancer of spaz
December 15th, 2004, 12:42 PM
You're right, Jack does share blame as her commanding officer. And, I don't see how other situations or what other people have done have any bearing on what Sam did now. If they've been sympathetic to people before that doesn't negate what happened here.

No, it doesn't change what's happened here, but it does point out a trend. I don't understand why everyone's so surprised that it happened. I'm not saying it should have happened, but it's happened before, and I don't think there's ever been as much of a bitter uproar about it.



Sam gave a replicator access to the only weapon that can destroy them. I don't see how that can be tap danced around. She did it, she shouldn't have done it. Regardless of what RC wanted to do. And, Sam sure should have had the common sense to consider that RC might want to preserve herself and not want to die.

Apparently they all disregarded that. Sam, Jack, and Teal'c all let their guard down too often.


Never trust your enemy to be truthful. So, Jack is at fault, but I don't see how anyone can say that Sam giving access to the only weapon that can destroy a replicator to a replicator isn't her fault. RC could have had all the premeditated desires in the galaxy, and maybe she would have found some other means for accomplishing her goal, but if Sam had been smart, it wouldn't have happened because of Sam.

Sam did something wrong. Yes, people make mistakes, and some of us are criticizing Sam for this mistake.

Yes. Sam did something wrong. Jack did something wrong. Teal'c's the only one who didn't do something wrong, apparently. The whole situation was allowed to go downhill, because of Sam and Jack trusting RepliCarter too dang much. I'm just saying... if we're going to do any blaming, why don't we blame all culpable parties, instead of just one?

Shipperahoy
December 15th, 2004, 12:54 PM
People seem to be getting a little uncomfortable with the criticism of Sam and, as someone who's been doing some of the criticizing, I want to point something out. Yes I think Sam made a mistake. And I think it was a big 'un. I'm amazed at the fact that apparently nobody gave even a thought to the fact that Replicarter could possibly be lying about Fifth being invulnerable to the weapon. I'm stunned. Stupefied even. But I'm not bashing the character. I don't think that the character as a whole is an idiot, I think she did something idiotic and perhaps she'll learn from it. As people have said, everyone makes mistakes, but they also have to pay for them.

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 01:06 PM
No, it doesn't change what's happened here, but it does point out a trend. I don't understand why everyone's so surprised that it happened. I'm not saying it should have happened, but it's happened before, and I don't think there's ever been as much of a bitter uproar about it.

I think it's the nature of this mistake. Trusting RC is one thing. Giving her asylum is one thing. Could they still be criticized for that? You bet your boots they could. I think this went beyond that, and I don't believe the Sam of at least the first few years of Stargate would take that extra step into incompetence. It's like tptb weren't trying to let the situation evolve around the character, but they were twisting the character to fit the situation.







Yes. Sam did something wrong. Jack did something wrong. Teal'c's the only one who didn't do something wrong, apparently. The whole situation was allowed to go downhill, because of Sam and Jack trusting RepliCarter too dang much. I'm just saying... if we're going to do any blaming, why don't we blame all culpable parties, instead of just one?

Well, as I recall some people are blaming Jack. But, it's the nature of the beast, that the one with direct contact will probably get the most blame. And, there's also the fact that tptb seem to be trying to lift the blame off of Sam. I think there are two main problems people have. That Sam did it in the first place, and that Jack told her that she didn't do anything wrong. Couldn't Jack have told her that they'll find a way to remedy the problem? That he was her commanding officer and should have stopped her from what she was doing if he felt she was too close to the subject? Anything but telling her she didn't do anything wrong.

Lunar
December 15th, 2004, 01:06 PM
I've been criticising too. :o I really was very uncomfortable after my first watching about what had happened, really thought it was a very stupid mistake on Sam's part... but more than that, it seemed very out of character for her to be so trusting of RC... and then to show her the weapon! :eek:
But re-watching it, I think I begin to see the angle the writers were (maybe, possibly, inn my opinion!) working from.
I just can't see how an error of judgement that was presumably okayed with her superiors can be 'punishable,' or how Sam can 'pay for it.' It was a logical decision, if a ridiculously naive one when taking into consideration the nature of the enemy they were dealing with. What other way could they have taken? Really? Waited around for Fifth to turn up?
What if Replicarter hadn't been lying? If they'd failed to capitalise on the resource that became available to them it could have cost them everything...
... of course, it *has* cost them everything :S
Bring on Reckoning, I say! I want to see this mess cleaned up! :)

Thor's Gunner
December 15th, 2004, 01:07 PM
Yeah actually i was thinking the same things exactly, she basically went in there and said, Fifth is now invlumnarable to your weapons so i need to have a look at their specs and blueprints to see how they work to update them. But Jack did actually say' dont you find it odd that shes the only one that Fifth has not made immune to [email protected] so he did think it just didnt say it directly.

Shipperahoy
December 15th, 2004, 01:10 PM
What I meant by pay for it Lunar is that now Replicarter and her Replicator army are now invulnerable to the Ancients weapon and now Earth is defenseless against them. This can be construed as Sam's fault. And partly Jack's because he let it go on as long as he did. Sam gave Replicarter access to the weapon with nary a thought to the possibility that she could be playing them. I just don't understand that.

Lunar
December 15th, 2004, 01:11 PM
I don't believe the Sam of at least the first few years of Stargate would take that extra step into incompetence. It's like tptb weren't trying to let the situation evolve around the character, but they were twisting the character to fit the situation.

Now we're in agreement! :)


Couldn't Jack have told her that they'll find a way to remedy the problem? That he was her commanding officer and should have stopped her from what she was doing if he felt she was too close to the subject? Anything but telling her she didn't do anything wrong.

And again, I agree here.
...I still don't understand why Jack's phonecall to the Asgard didn't end with them trying to zap the reppies with their existing machine and then if it didn't work involving RC....
Seems like a good way of finding out whether she was telling the truth or not without gambling eveything...But then of course, we wouldn't have Reckoning and the big Goa'uld/Replicator showdown.
I think Sam ended up caught in another plot device that reflects poorly on her character.
A shame, but I guess it happens to all of them at some point or another.

Lunar
December 15th, 2004, 01:14 PM
What I meant by pay for it Lunar is that now Replicarter and her Replicator army are now invulnerable to the Ancients weapon and now Earth is defenseless against them. This can be construed as Sam's fault. And partly Jack's because he let it go on as long as he did. Sam gave Replicarter access to the weapon with nary a thought to the possibility that she could be playing them. I just don't understand that.

And neither do I.
Hence my orginal post on this thread about feeling a bit weirded out by the whole Sam behaving so naively...
And Jack...
... and Teal'c...
Put it down to poor writing for the sake of later plot development?

kiwigater
December 15th, 2004, 01:37 PM
Actually, I think you bring up a lot of valid points Lunar. :)

How often have we thought to ourselves "gosh, I wish SG-1 weren't quite so perfect, that they would make the occasional human error"?? Well, I know I have. And, as you reminded me, from Carter's perspective the weapon WAS useless, and they had nothing to lose by having Replicarter try to adjust it. I still think it was incredibly short sighted of them to just take her word that Fifth had adapted, but from their perspective they planned to "dust" her anyway.

And, consider that the "immunity" of the replicators to the Ancient weapon, was IMHO, probably inevitable. Can we realistically expect that they wouldn't have eventually come across/stolen/aquired one of the weapons anyway? All it would take would be for 2 or 3 human form replicators to sacrifice themselves while wearing some form of the analysis equipment Sam used to send that exact information back to their bretheren.

So, I guess I think while they (SG-1) acted foolishly and hastily, they are, after all, only human (and it's about time one of their exploits turned around and bit them on the ass :p ), and I feel like the consequence is that they hastened the inevitable, rather than creating the problem. (my reasoning for this is that RC had clearly been contemplating this for some time. SG-1 was merely the easiest way to achieve her goals)

Watters87
December 15th, 2004, 01:40 PM
What I meant by pay for it Lunar is that now Replicarter and her Replicator army are now invulnerable to the Ancients weapon and now Earth is defenseless against them. This can be construed as Sam's fault. And partly Jack's because he let it go on as long as he did. Sam gave Replicarter access to the weapon with nary a thought to the possibility that she could be playing them. I just don't understand that.

I think Replicarter made a convincing argument at the start of the episode saying she wanted to be destroyed. She knew how to play each of the characters. She kept repeating for them to destroy her. Replicarter has all of Sam’s memories and I think the crucial line is when Jack asked if the feel death. She replies that they feel many things and I think this reasons to them all that even though she is a Replicator she has Sam’s memories and maybe some of her feelings. They could have thought that since Replicarter has Sam’s feeling that she is like Sam and is not bad.

I think they especially Sam is caught between two mind’s here. What if Replicarter is telling the truth and Fifth is immune to the Ancient device. They could test it out because Replicarter is not immune because Fifth suspects that she is abandoning him. What good is the device now? If Fifth came through and the device failed to destroy him, how would Sam feel? She had an opportunity to help remodulate the device to destroy him but passed up the chance. She thought Replicarter was helping. Replicarter had to see how the device worked and see the bits and pieces on how the device worked and then establish a way to find a means to counteract the effects.

To me Sam and to some extent Teal’c made a mistake trusting Replicarter but it wasn’t a blunder as some have seen it. Sam tries to see the good in every one and she thought Replicarter was good because it had her memories and it felt things. Replicarter showed her a tortured Fifth used on her and she told Sam that’s why she turned on Fifth. It was a convincing argument for Sam to trust her IMO. :)

SaberBlade
December 15th, 2004, 02:08 PM
could someone tell me if RDA was missing from the opening credits? i can remember tapping being the first credited and not RDA and i am not sure if i missed the start of the credits. i would have checked it with Sky Mix but i missed the start of it as well

Catysg1
December 15th, 2004, 02:18 PM
I loved that episode ..the story was fantastic ..the decor , the lightning made everything so nice for the eyes to watch ..Absolutely fab ;)

I love Sam and I will always enjoy to see an episode with her ...

...specially when they are 2 Sam's ..because AT knows how to play the 2 different Sam's so well ...I mean ..look at "Gemini "and how she interpreted Sam and Replicarter ..they looked the same but just by her facial expression , her body language ..she made them look so different ...And she did the same in Point of view , in line of duty and entity .

She is not only superb but a very talented and versatile actress.

Way to go Amanda ..You did a brilliant job ....It must have been hard to make an episode like that one ...and she excelled in it . I will always support what Amanda does in the future ...and RDA too I 'd love to see them both together in a different movie one day ;)



Daniel was not there much but he has his episode next week in Prometheus Unbound. ..so it will be fine ...let's keep up the balance . ;)


I like Teal'c with Sam a lot ..He was as concerned about her safety as Jack was ...and it was so cute to see. ;)

What an Awesome episode :)


Caty ;)

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 02:22 PM
But, but, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to hone in on the idea that RC, a replicator was probably lying. Saying she had Sam's feelings and memories and that should make a difference? Well, don't you think that's exactly what she would say? Shouldn't they have thought that this was another trick? I mean, really. RC isn't George Washington at the cherry tree. The idea that she could tell a lie should have been first and foremost in their mind. There's having an open mind about people and there's having a mind so open, it's empty.

Tok'Ra Hostess
December 15th, 2004, 02:44 PM
I must admit I'm somewhat surprised by all the negative comments about Sam, here. It's not like Sam hasn't shown a certain level of naivete in past seasons, ie: Prisoners, when she let Linea have access to the base computers, which Linea used to get gate addresses and to escape without trouble.

Jump ahead to Linea, revisited, in Past & Present: When she discovered who "Kira" was, Sam was wary, while Daniel argued passionately for compassion towards Kira.(Was he branded an idiot? Perhaps, but not in any group I was in at the time.)

Ultimately, though, Sam argued for letting Kira continue the work of finding a cure. Why? Because it was the only way to help these people that they - more especially, Sam and Jack - felt responible for.

Yes, they would watch her like hawks, but both she and Janet admitted that Kira's genius far outstipped theirs. Kira could quite easily have fooled them while they watched.

But because that one turned out well, Sam and Janet weren't judged as idiots....

"/

Ditto the time when, in Singularity, she dispbeyed a direct order and remained behind with Cassie. She trusted her intuition then, and everything worked out for the best. Was she an idiot then?

Intuition doesn't always work, though, as Gemini points out.

Sam has shown lapses in judgement in other eps, namely, Bane, when she wanted to go back to Big Honkin' Bug world, Matter of Time, when she wanted to watch SG-10 get pulled like soft taffy into the blackhole, Line of Duty, when she stopped to perform mouth to mouth on a guy while they were under fire. I could go on.

The thing is, it's canon that Sam is like that. Yes, she's military, but she's also a wide-eyed scientist. Yes, she obeys orders, but she is also manipulative - repCarter told her so, and if anyone knows, it's repCarter. Sam gets her way. Mostly that's been a good thing as she is usually instrumental in saving the day.

All these traits, be they good or bad are part and parcel of what makes Sam, Sam and the hens have finally come home to roost for her.

Cool!

Watters87
December 15th, 2004, 02:48 PM
But, but, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to hone in on the idea that RC, a replicator was probably lying. Saying she had Sam's feelings and memories and that should make a difference? Well, don't you think that's exactly what she would say? Shouldn't they have thought that this was another trick? I mean, really. RC isn't George Washington at the cherry tree. The idea that she could tell a lie should have been first and foremost in their mind. There's having an open mind about people and there's having a mind so open, it's empty.

If you look at Fifth the first time we saw him. Was he evil? Just because your a Replicator doesn't mean that immediately your evil.

shelsfc
December 15th, 2004, 02:55 PM
If you look at Fifth the first time we saw him. Was he evil? Just because your a Replicator doesn't mean that immediately your evil.
They still left him behind though.... they were very cautious about him when they thought he was good. They didn't show the same caution when it came to RC...that doesn't make sense to me.

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 02:56 PM
I just don't see why it matters what Sam did before or what Daniel did. How did he get in it? I mean, there's a thread for Pretense if people want to criticize his actions. There are threads for all the other episodes. I mean, I can't stop anyone from bringing past actions up here, but I don't see how that has any bearing on what happened in this episode. And, since for some reason Daniel (who was what? In this episode for a few minutes, once in a dream sequence where he got killed) keeps coming up, like I said, some of the issue is with tptb, through Jack, telling Sam she didn't do anything wrong. IIRC, Jack did question Daniel's judgement in Pretense. He didn't say, "Well, bucko, you're finally free to have feelings for another woman, so your judgement is perfectly fine."

The thing is people are talking about this episode, so of course they're going to criticize Sam's actions for this episode. The fact that Sam did some things before, or that Daniel maybe didn't get enough criticism for another episode doesn't change what Sam did in this episode. Or change that Jack allowed it.

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 02:59 PM
If you look at Fifth the first time we saw him. Was he evil? Just because your a Replicator doesn't mean that immediately your evil.

It means you're the enemy. And, even if you aren't the enemy, if you have a weapon that can destroy someone (which basically kind of means that someone is the enemy -unless they have a really twisted idea of friendship) you don't give access to it to the person it can destroy. You know, just in case the person might be lying about wanting to die. She might have been lying about every single thing that came out of her mouth, and that should have occured to them.

Watters87
December 15th, 2004, 03:06 PM
They still left him behind though.... they were very cautious about him when they thought he was good. They didn't show the same caution when it came to RC...that doesn't make sense to me.

It really wasn't they but Jack that left Fifth behind. Jack really doesn't like Aliens unless your Thor or Teal'c. You really need to do something big to become a friend in Jack's eyes.

Tok'Ra Hostess
December 15th, 2004, 03:13 PM
I can't stop anyone from bringing past actions up here, but I don't see how that has any bearing on what happened in this episode.

Many are saying that what Sam did in the ep was, 1) out of character, which was why I brought up past eps - to show that she was, in fact, quite in character in Gemini, and, 2) that an action is judged idiotic only when it leads to failure.

I mentioned Daniel once, as an example. I include Jack in Prisoners, and Daniel in P&P, why? Because they were they other characters who got emotionally involved in these sample eps where Sam trusting her instincts bore different results.

Please don't turn this into what it is not. "/

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 03:29 PM
I think Daniel was mentioned before by someone else as well. And, I still don't see how what happened in another episode to another character has any bearing whatsoever even if it was mentioned only once. If someone whispered really fast under their breath that Daniel did something wrong in this episode, or Teal'c or Jack in that episode, and it was never brought up again, I'd still object. If they wrote it in quck vanishing invisible ink, I'd object. Especially if any of these characters was hardly in this episode.

And, as far as just Sam is concerned, I still think this trumps what she did before. Take Pretense. Sam and Janet used Kira's expertise, which was a risk and which could have ended badly, but they didn't use her to make the antidote and then hand her a vial and say, "drink up!" Sam's actions in Singularity wasn't stupid. It was self sacrificing. Yes, they were dumb for trusting Linnea in Prisoners, but wouldn't you think Sam would have learned something from that?

It just seems that there's some issue with Sam's actions being criticized because either someone else didn't get criticized for questionable things they did, or Sam did some questionable things before. Like until every action that ever was made by all of them gets brought out and brought into the spotlight, we should give her a pass on this one.

Teal'c
December 15th, 2004, 03:31 PM
People keeps saying that Sam should have seen it coming but... did you? I didn't. I even knew Replicarter survived and it still didn't occur to me! :P

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 03:36 PM
Well, I haven't seen it, so I guess I can't say if I saw it coming. But, Sam's had a lot of experience with enemies, with peoole who may seem like friends, but turn out to be enemies, with the replicators in general. And, this is someone who was made and trained by Fifth. To twist an old saying, The protegee of my enemy is not my friend.

Albion
December 15th, 2004, 05:21 PM
From the converstation, I took it that Prometheus Unbound was happening in the same time frame as Gemini, hence no Daniel.

I didn't hear anything in the conversation between Daniel and Carter to indicate that Daniel had gone into the elevator and was headed for the Prometheus. Quite the opposite in fact. The conversation that I heard clearly indicated that they were at the stage of picking the crew for the mission and that Daniel was hoping to convince Jack that he should be one of them. That indicates the mission was at a very early planning stage, not ready to launch.

So I'd be very surprised if Daniel was already picked for the crew, on the Prometheus and being kidnapped/shangheid at the same time as everyone else was dealing with the RepliCarter. It's just too short a time compression for me, given the dialogue of the teaser.


Albion :)

Jarnin
December 15th, 2004, 05:30 PM
Overall a great episode. Kind of predictable, but not so much that it ruined the episode.

This is the first episode that really brought out Teal'c's character for me. I never really liked Teal'c until now. He was so friggin hilarious in Gemini that I'm gonna have to go back and watch all his other episodes to see if I had missed something before.

The only thing that really killed the episode was when replicarter said "fifth modified all replicators to be immune to the disruptors effects, EXCEPT ME.". That was a really bad line. It felt forced, and it totally gave away the ending for me.

Still a great episode.

Albion
December 15th, 2004, 05:37 PM
And, I still don't see how what happened in another episode to another character has any bearing whatsoever even if it was mentioned only once

Well, it has bearing if you think of the characters as three dimensional, 'real' people. They all have histories and so how they react to events now and how they make decisions is sometimes based on past experiences and knowledge. They don't act in isolation, as though they were born right at the start of each new episode. They build on previous situations and events, just like real life people. And that's what makes them interesting characters, rather than cardboard cutouts. Therefore, it's perfectly valid to bring up what they did previously in similiar situations in trying to understand their motivations now. Just as with real peple, their actions and decisions in the past are often the key to their actions and decisions in the present.


Albion :)

Madeleine
December 15th, 2004, 05:46 PM
I have trouble believing you'd be so angry and quick to blame Daniel if he had been in Sam's position

Do you remember Daniel giving that girl in the perspex box a whole load of candles to go with the sheaves of papers she already had? I don't recall the words I used, but I'm sure I pointed out that it was a very dim idea. I'm sure I never rushed to his defence when people said he was stupid for giving the NID that translation in Affinity either. I'd offer another example to prove that I'm prepared to blame Daniel as much as I'd blamed Sam, but (a) I'm not answerable to anyone for my opinions of the show and (b) Daniel never did anything quite as obviously risky to the security of the entire Earth as what Sam did.

Although as people have pointed out Jack bears some responsibility for the debacle too at least he drew a line at inviting Reese's granddaughter back to the SGC. At least he gave an inkling that he remembered that Replicators can do some damage, can replicate, when they set a mind to it. Teal'c was not in the chain of command that made any decisions, but he should still have spoken up and told Carter that she was risking too much.

***

Hello, is that the Bank Of England? I'm a relative of the chap who's been robbing vaults all over London. He's worked out a way to get around your security! But if you show me all your security plans I'll give you tips on how to protect yourselves from him, cos I don't like him cos he's so bad... Yes, Tuesday afternoon's fine for me, see you there.

***


It's not like Sam hasn't shown a certain level of naivete in past seasons, ie: Prisoners, when she let Linea have access to the base computers, which Linea used to get gate addresses and to escape without trouble.

That was silly, but not such a big deal. True that they didn't know who Linnea was but Sam had no obvious reason to suspect Linnea of being able to destroy Earth and the galaxy on a whim.


Jump ahead to Linea, revisited, in Past & Present: When she discovered who "Kira" was, Sam was wary, while Daniel argued passionately for compassion towards Kira.(Was he branded an idiot? Perhaps, but not in any group I was in at the time.)

What was at stake in Past Present? The worst that could have happened was that Linnea could have harmed some people in the SGC. Not the entire galaxy.


Kira could quite easily have fooled them while they watched.

But because that one turned out well, Sam and Janet weren't judged as idiots....

Because the worst case scenario of Linnea Turns Bad is way way less serious than the entire Earth getting replicatored.


Ditto the time when, in Singularity, she dispbeyed a direct order and remained behind with Cassie. She trusted her intuition then, and everything worked out for the best. Was she an idiot then?

No, absolutely not. Worst case scenario = she dies. She didn't put the whole planet at risk.


... , Matter of Time, when she wanted to watch SG-10 get pulled like soft taffy into the blackhole, Line of Duty, when she stopped to perform mouth to mouth on a guy while they were under fire. I could go on.

MoT, I liked that she made a mistake; Jack pulled her up on it and it was a nice character moment. But her idea to observe the black hole was merely in poor taste, it didn't threaten a single life. Mouth to mouth? Sam made a snap decision in the heat of the moment, which was not at all the case in Gemini. Besides, if it was in any way wrong of her to do mouth to mouth (I don't think it was wrong) then Hammond is to blame for not having ordered full enough Risk Assessments.


Yes, she obeys orders, but she is also manipulative - repCarter told her so, and if anyone knows, it's repCarter.

Just cos Replicarter says something doesn't make it true.


All these traits, be they good or bad are part and parcel of what makes Sam, Sam and the hens have finally come home to roost for her.

I'd be a little more at ease with this ep if there had been some acknowledgement that they screwedd up in this ep. Jack absolved sam of all responsibility, fair enough, he's her CO and she never disobeyed his orders. But in that case he should have accepted responsibility for it himself. The focus at the end of the ep was all about whether it had happened because of Carter's actions in s6 and her innate personality. There was no focus on the fact that it was Sam's actions in showing all her top secrets to an enemy that led to the problem. Probably because that would have drawn attention to the great big plot-hole: It's way out-of-character for Sam to be such an idiot when matters of planetary security are at stake, and Jack would surely have kept a much tighter reign on things.

Albion
December 15th, 2004, 06:00 PM
Ooooops. It's too late at night (or should I say way too early in the morning :p ) - my brain is fried. Got the wrong end of which episode was being discussed for a moment there. Ignore. <g> :rolleyes:

Albion :)

MajorSam
December 15th, 2004, 06:43 PM
Ok, i'm not going to quote anyone, but to all the people who are going on about, or argueing about Sam's stupidity, I agree sure it was definately a dufus thing for her to do, but honestly, imagine you're just at a normal work day, when all of a sudden an alien type clone thing shows up, asks to be destryoed. you realize "you" were made by an evil guy you betrayed. So you meet with him/her, and are shown how "you" were made to kill the people who are most important to you in your life. You know "you" can think and feel like you do. "you" went through, what, the most horrible nightmares you could imagine? How would you feel? I know that I couldn't see these things and be sickened by them. They're "you!" FCOL. Why would you expect "you" to be evil? "you" were put through horrors, and are now trying to escape and be killed because of them. I mean, driven to death because of not being able to live with yourself, or through more of things that go against everything you know and feel and believe in. I don't think everyone thinks "oh, well, she/he's been put through everything horrible that you could be put through, but ooooooh, i'm actually evil inside and so being put through that I must have turned so."

Ok, basically what i'm saying, is that you know yourself, and what you feel, belive in etc. If you were put through horrers like killing everyone you care about, why the )*$^* would you think that you'd be turned evil because of it? You'd be distraught, maybe even suicidal like Replicarter claimed to be. You know that's how you would react, so again, why would you pop up and be like "oh, well, I'd be turned evil!" you wouldn't!

Sam is a normal flawed human being, but people seem to not be able to accept when she makes mistakes. No one's super woman, why can't you accept her flaws? Maybe if she never did you'd think she's an unrealistic character who has no feelings, and TPTB made a silyl "perfect" person or whatever. Ya, it was a huge mistake but I know myself that I would be horrified for my other self! I wouldn't want to kill her, I'd try and make it better. It would disturb me to know what my life could have been, or still could possibly be like.

then there's all the fact that she's made by Fifth. Ok, Sam's a strong woman, despite making some mistakes. Fifth, although learning about "betrayal" is still a "flaw" himself. They don't know the extent of what he can do, although they do know he's evil. They all trust Sam, often with their lives. I seriously doubt that they'd say "oh, well, if Fiiiiiifth has her so she's going to crumble and become his puppet and do anything he wants and is thus evil" Nothing like this has ever happened, and judging by what's happened in the past, I say again, I doubt they would automatically be like "OOOH EVIL"

I don't know if this has been talked about yet, but about bringing her to the Alpha Site? She has all of Sam's thoughts and memories, she already knows all the addresses, it's not like they're giving her their most secret information!!!

Giving Reppy all the info. about the disruptor. All the stuff i've said so far is saying that yeah they'd be suspicious, but how could they know she's all evil? She comes, tries to get them to kill her, shows Sam some of the very personal things that happened to her by Fifth, and all that, and tells them that Fifth is immune and could come and kill them all. What choice do they really have? People have already said, they couldn't ignore her just for hte fact she was made by Fifth. Imagine what would have happened if she was telling the truth, they killed her, Fifth comes, kills them. Well I guess they wouldn't care then, would they...

I think it's unfair that, from what I see, no matter what they did in this situation, trusted her, or killed her, Sam is seen as this massive screw up who's an idiot and has put the galaxy at risk and bla bla.
So ya, Sam did make a mistake in this one, but honestly how could they have predicted such a thing would happen?

Sorry for all that... I hope it made sense. That's just some of how I feel on all the massive hating that Sam's been getting in the past almost 2 years now. I hope that you all give what I had to say some thought, and try to understand what I'm trying to say, because I know that sometimes people are soo close-minded. Again, to each his own (opinion)

MSam

Angel of Fire SG1
December 15th, 2004, 06:50 PM
Ok, i'm not going to quote anyone, but to all the people who are going on about, or argueing about Sam's stupidity, I agree sure it was definately a dufus thing for her to do, but honestly, imagine you're just at a normal work day, when all of a sudden an alien type clone thing shows up, asks to be destryoed. you realize "you" were made by an evil guy you betrayed. So you meet with him/her, and are shown how "you" were made to kill the people who are most important to you in your life. You know "you" can think and feel like you do. "you" went through, what, the most horrible nightmares you could imagine? How would you feel? I know that I couldn't see these things and be sickened by them. They're "you!" FCOL. Why would you expect "you" to be evil? "you" were put through horrors, and are now trying to escape and be killed because of them. I mean, driven to death because of not being able to live with yourself, or through more of things that go against everything you know and feel and believe in. I don't think everyone thinks "oh, well, she/he's been put through everything horrible that you could be put through, but ooooooh, i'm actually evil inside and so being put through that I must have turned so."

Ok, basically what i'm saying, is that you know yourself, and what you feel, belive in etc. If you were put through horrers like killing everyone you care about, why the )*$^* would you think that you'd be turned evil because of it? You'd be distraught, maybe even suicidal like Replicarter claimed to be. You know that's how you would react, so again, why would you pop up and be like "oh, well, I'd be turned evil!" you wouldn't!

Sam is a normal flawed human being, but people seem to not be able to accept when she makes mistakes. No one's super woman, why can't you accept her flaws? Maybe if she never did you'd think she's an unrealistic character who has no feelings, and TPTB made a silyl "perfect" person or whatever. Ya, it was a huge mistake but I know myself that I would be horrified for my other self! I wouldn't want to kill her, I'd try and make it better. It would disturb me to know what my life could have been, or still could possibly be like.

then there's all the fact that she's made by Fifth. Ok, Sam's a strong woman, despite making some mistakes. Fifth, although learning about "betrayal" is still a "flaw" himself. They don't know the extent of what he can do, although they do know he's evil. They all trust Sam, often with their lives. I seriously doubt that they'd say "oh, well, if Fiiiiiifth has her so she's going to crumble and become his puppet and do anything he wants and is thus evil" Nothing like this has ever happened, and judging by what's happened in the past, I say again, I doubt they would automatically be like "OOOH EVIL"

I don't know if this has been talked about yet, but about bringing her to the Alpha Site? She has all of Sam's thoughts and memories, she already knows all the addresses, it's not like they're giving her their most secret information!!!

Giving Reppy all the info. about the disruptor. All the stuff i've said so far is saying that yeah they'd be suspicious, but how could they know she's all evil? She comes, tries to get them to kill her, shows Sam some of the very personal things that happened to her by Fifth, and all that, and tells them that Fifth is immune and could come and kill them all. What choice do they really have? People have already said, they couldn't ignore her just for hte fact she was made by Fifth. Imagine what would have happened if she was telling the truth, they killed her, Fifth comes, kills them. Well I guess they wouldn't care then, would they...

I think it's unfair that, from what I see, no matter what they did in this situation, trusted her, or killed her, Sam is seen as this massive screw up who's an idiot and has put the galaxy at risk and bla bla.
So ya, Sam did make a mistake in this one, but honestly how could they have predicted such a thing would happen?

Sorry for all that... I hope it made sense. That's just some of how I feel on all the massive hating that Sam's been getting in the past almost 2 years now. Again, to each his own (opinion)

MSam

I think that's longer than my English essay :p

Well said, I agree completely!! No one wants a perfect character, Sam is human, she deserves respect for it!!

Personally I prefered a flawed human-like character where I can sit there and think "Oh I've done that, that sucks" rather than "Oh wow she's just the perfect person"

Replicarter KNEW how Sam would react, she knew what she would do. She tricked her!! She shared emotion with her using that dream sequence that Sam related to quite well, pretending to share her emotions, pretending to care!!

So Sam was drawn in!! We've all had times when we were tricked into believing something and then realised after how stupid we were. Sam is just showing that its possible even for SG-1 to make mistakes.

Madeleine
December 15th, 2004, 07:29 PM
But it isn't "you". It's a thing that looks like you, clearly has some of your memories, and claims to be "you". But it's a thing that admits it was made by somthing that wishes harm to Earth. however much it claims to be the same as Sam she ought to know that it isn't.

It didn't need any experiences to turn it evil. It was quite possibly made to be evil. We don't know, probably never will. Sam certainly didn't know. But she had every reason to suspect. You admit that they know Fifth was evil (I'd say amoral with a grudge against humans, but the effect is the same, to Earth). What possesses anyone to believe that he would have made a copy of Sam and kept it exactly the same as the original who'd hurt him? And since he was obviously going to tweak and adjust until he got the version he most liked, why is it not apparrent to everyone, especially SG-1 who know the replicators, that RC's going to be bad?

The goa'uld are born bad. One, only one, Egeria, turned good. She had mostly good babies. All other goa'uld stay bad. I can see that the SGC and especially Sam would hope that RC would turn out to be another Egeria, but to hand over the weapon like that and try to take her to Earth where she could quite feasibly destroy the planet on the offchance that such a slim chance could pay out is just not something Sam would do. This was an AU ep from an AU where Sam's brain has fallen out.

I think some people think I'm bashing Sam. Possibly, but then I think that for me to accept her behaviour in Gemini would be for me to do Sam a greater disservice still. I see this ep as Out Of Character for Sam, and will protest that, because in more than seven years she's always been pretty sensible, and every mistake she's made has been either a split-second decision under pressure, or a considered risk where she at least thought stuff through, even if she came to a 'wrong' conclusion. She's never made any error with such clear warning signs flashing as this.

Many people who like Sam have had problems with her behaviour in Affinity and chimera, not because she was 'wrong' but because it was out of character to get it so 'wrong'. My feelings about Gemini run in the same vein. I wouldn't have a problem with the ep if the dupe had been someone we'd had established as very dim (although I'm struggling to find any examples of such characters) because it would be a great example of how screwing up can make for a good story. It just rankles that they wrote *Sam* as dim, cos she's *not*.

Quite frankly i'm stunned that so many people have a problem with me having a problem with 42 mins of fiction about a fictional character that I have no obligation to like if I happen not to like it. This is how I feel, I didn't choose to feel like this it just happened while I watched the ep (twice).

FWIW I did look for the good in Carter. I didn't have a problem with the killing daniel with only a little hesitation and then stumbling over Jack's execution, because it was not Sam's vision, it was RC's. And RC is not Sam, she's an avatar of what Fifth would like Sam to be, based upon his own imperfect understanding of Sam. RC has been schooled by Fifth to think of her brethren as valuable but ultimately dispensable tools. He has however taught her total loyalty to her commander, ie Fifth. Okay, RC shrugged the lesson off, but it was still there.

RC applied these notions to Sam's life, 'killing' Daniel with some hesitation, but showing a much stronger reaction to having to kill Jack, because RC's knowledge of Sam is ultimately only RC's knowledge of herself, and that is how RC would expect a more moral version of 'herself' to behave.

THE BIG UNIT
December 15th, 2004, 07:47 PM
I loved this episode, thought it was great. Great acting by Amanda Tapping.
RepliCarter was cool.

Sam made a mistake yes, but it happens, she's only human.
Every character has made mistakes in the past
This would be Sam's biggest.
Daniel gave Anubis the Eye of Ra in Full Circle, Anubis doublecrossed him and ended up majorly weakening the system lords, and earth was next on the list if they didnt destroy it later. He made a mistake, i dont hate him for it, or call him stupid.
I dont want to turn this into a character war (or Make it worse it seems).
I love them all, and they have all made mistakes. I dont hate any of them for it, it makes them more realistic to me. none of them are perfect.
Sam has been critisised alot in the past for Being "Superwoman", being to perfect and never screwing up, many were complaining about that. Well guess what? she screwed up. But i never saw that ending coming, RepliCarter betraying Fifth aswell. The fans got what they wanted, sam made a mistake. I also didn't see her as acting out of character either.

My post isnt to start more Sam VS Daniel crap, though why this is even an issue is beyond me, And I'm not talking about bringing up his past mistakes, i can agree that was relevant for the topic being discussed. I mean that there seems to be a fandom war between the characters, shame really. Sam may be my favourite, but i love them all.

Bye everyone and play nice

MajorSam
December 15th, 2004, 07:47 PM
RC applied these notions to Sam's life, 'killing' Daniel with some hesitation, but showing a much stronger reaction to having to kill Jack, because RC's knowledge of Sam is ultimately only RC's knowledge of herself, and that is how RC would expect a more moral version of 'herself' to behave.

Ya, doesn't that show that exactly how much Reppy knows about Sam, and that she is 100% capable of manipulating her in any way, because she knows how Sam would react to these things and thus maybe it's not all Sam's idiocy that led her to do what she did?

Sry, i'm not saying that you personally blame it all on Sam, i'm just trying to say that it's not such a MASSIVE ALL HER FAULT HER CHARACTER HAS GONE DOWN TO THE DUMPS thing. I just don't see how some people (not saying that means anyone here, i've been checking out people's opinions on some other forums...) can think Sam has actually become so horrible beyond repair...

alz0rz
December 15th, 2004, 08:10 PM
I just finished watching this episode, its ok :). Touches on many topics/aspects..

AL_EPISODE_METER reports 3.5/5

Shipperahoy
December 15th, 2004, 08:17 PM
I just want to say that I don't think that the Sam character has "gone down to the dumps". One bad judgement call does not a character make. The only reason I've made such a big deal out of it is because it seems such a glaring mistake. But it's not like I want to see her publically flogged or anything. And besides, I'm looking forward to seeing the repurcussions of this episode.

Madeleine
December 15th, 2004, 08:22 PM
Ya, doesn't that show that exactly how much Reppy knows about Sam, and that she is 100% capable of manipulating her in any way, because she knows how Sam would react to these things and thus maybe it's not all Sam's idiocy that led her to do what she did?

No, it shows (me) how much RC *doesn't* know about Carter. She didn't act like Carter in that scenario, or even like Carter-unfer-Fifth's control, she acted like Fifth's vision of his ideal Carter having been taught by him, pretending to be compassionate. And she wasn't compassionate enough to fool me. I can see that Sam was confuddled, and I don't blame her for having *some* faith in RC after that. She just had no right to go putting the Earth's future in RC's hands on the basis of such (unproven) faith.


Sry, i'm not saying that you personally blame it all on Sam, i'm just trying to say that it's not such a MASSIVE ALL HER FAULT HER CHARACTER HAS GONE DOWN TO THE DUMPS thing.
No, her character hasn't gone down to the dumps IMO. She was great all through the first half of s8, really great. She made a mistake in Zero hour which I never even mentioned cos I thought it in-character, minor and not a plot-hole, but other than that she's been fine. The huuuuuge mistake she makes, and the even huger one she tries to make till Jack and Teal'c stop her come out of the blue.


I just don't see how some people (not saying that means anyone here, i've been checking out people's opinions on some other forums...) can think Sam has actually become so horrible beyond repair...

No, I don't see any "horrible beyond repair" about Sam either. But then it's not for me to see, it's for 'them' to see; it's 'their' opinion, and if it's what they really feel then it's a legitimate opinion for 'them' to hold.

I do like Carter; she was stupid in this ep but not unsympathetic or unlikeable. If this mistake was part of a chain of similar ones I'd lose respect for her in general, but at the mo it's a one-off, and so as long as it stays a one-off I'll keep my respect for her and blame the writers rather than her for it all ;)

MajorSam
December 15th, 2004, 08:31 PM
I do like Carter; she was stupid in this ep but not unsympathetic or unlikeable. If this mistake was part of a chain of similar ones I'd lose respect for her in general, but at the mo it's a one-off, and so as long as it stays a one-off I'll keep my respect for her and blame the writers rather than her for it all ;)

haha, I love how always falls back on the writers :p


I just want to say that I don't think that the Sam character has "gone down to the dumps". One bad judgement call does not a character make. The only reason I've made such a big deal out of it is because it seems such a glaring mistake. But it's not like I want to see her publically flogged or anything. And besides, I'm looking forward to seeing the repurcussions of this episode.

that's good :) I just do know some people who can't accept the episode and enjoy what her mistakes will mean. Hey, it makes some good conflicts!

Once again, not aimed at anyone in this forum! Peace and love! Fluffy pink bunnies and such to everyone. :)

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 08:37 PM
Like Madeleine said, RC isn't Sam. Sam had no reason to trust RC. No, that's putting it mildly. She had every reason not to trust RC. And, I'm not going to say it's merely because RC was so gosh darn smart and manipulative. Maybe she was, but it doesn't negate how easily Sam was manipulated.

I also have to wonder why people are so upset that some of us are criticizing Sam for something she did. yeah, no one wants a perfect character, but that doesn't mean that when the character makes a mistake we aren't going to call her on it. It just doesn't work that way.

And, I don't have a problem with Daniel being criticized. Like I said, my view is, go to the thread for whatever episode you think he did something wrong and have at him. I may agree, I may not agree, that doesn't matter. My problem is when you say Daniel did this wrong, so why are you being so mean to Sam? If Daniel does something wrong or stupid, yeah, call him on it. But, just because you think that enough people haven't called him on past mistakes is no reason why Sam shouldn't be called on this one. Or, reverse them. If it was Daniel doing something so stupid (and, if he had done the same thing, it would have been stupid) than whatever mistakes Sam made in the past would have no bearing. Heck, if you said J/S ship made mistakes in the past (I know, ship isn't a person. Work with me here) and then say, "so why are you talking about Sam?" I'd say J/S ship had no bearing on this. And, if you don't know how I feel about the ship, I'm not working hard enough. It's not about fandom wars, it's about finding reasons why a mistake of Sam's shouldn't be criticized. Other people have made mistakes? Yes. Doesn't mean a darn thing as far as the fact that Sam made a mistake. Sam's made mistakes before? Yep. So what? She's still going to get criticized for this one. RC looks like Sam? No, RC isn't Sam, never was Sam, and it doesn't take someone with half a brain cell to know that she isn't Sam.

You (this is all a general you) may think what Sam did was hunky dory. that's fine. You're welcome to your opinion. But, there is absolutely, positively, world without end, no reason why people who do feel that she made a glaring mistake shouldn't say so.

the dancer of spaz
December 15th, 2004, 09:46 PM
But, but, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to hone in on the idea that RC, a replicator was probably lying. Saying she had Sam's feelings and memories and that should make a difference? Well, don't you think that's exactly what she would say? Shouldn't they have thought that this was another trick? I mean, really. RC isn't George Washington at the cherry tree. The idea that she could tell a lie should have been first and foremost in their mind. There's having an open mind about people and there's having a mind so open, it's empty.

Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? And, besides, I thought they DID suspect that she was lying to some extent - if not Sam, then at least Jack and Teal'c. I mean, a lot of people (who've seen the ep, might I add - I am not a candidate) have made many good points over the past two days. SG-1 thought they were doing the right thing, and that they had to take the risk because it was both possible and PLAUSIBLE for Fifth to become immune to the disruptor. Plain and simple.

How many times has the Goa'uld adapted to Earth's technology in the past? And these are freakin' Replicators, for crying out loud. They're instinctual, destructive bugs who literally feed off of technology. And then you add the fact that they're HUMAN form, and it makes a lot of sense for Fifth to have figured something out. What else COULD they have done? If Sam/Jack/Teal'c had sat back and twiddled their thumbs because they didn't believe RepliCarter, and THEN Earth had been attacked, people (fans) would have been complaining about how it was a bad decision to take NO actions against Fifth at all.

Really, as an audience, we are able to see every angle of the situation, from the way they cut to characters' expressions, to the change in music, to basic plot elements that other characters just will not ever see. It's the director's job, and, if they do it well, they'll be able to keep fans guessing throughout the ep. That's the way it is. These characters, while strategically well-versed in Intergalactic Baddy Tactics, are not always going to see the black and the white so clearly.

Plus... personally, I spoiled myself beyond all reason, so I had SOME idea of how this was gonna pan out. Heh heh... :P

the dancer of spaz
December 15th, 2004, 09:56 PM
I just don't see why it matters what Sam did before or what Daniel did. How did he get in it? I mean, there's a thread for Pretense if people want to criticize his actions. There are threads for all the other episodes. I mean, I can't stop anyone from bringing past actions up here, but I don't see how that has any bearing on what happened in this episode. And, since for some reason Daniel (who was what? In this episode for a few minutes, once in a dream sequence where he got killed) keeps coming up, like I said, some of the issue is with tptb, through Jack, telling Sam she didn't do anything wrong. IIRC, Jack did question Daniel's judgement in Pretense. He didn't say, "Well, bucko, you're finally free to have feelings for another woman, so your judgement is perfectly fine."

The thing is people are talking about this episode, so of course they're going to criticize Sam's actions for this episode. The fact that Sam did some things before, or that Daniel maybe didn't get enough criticism for another episode doesn't change what Sam did in this episode. Or change that Jack allowed it.

I think bringing up past actions is just fine, because it shows where our priorities are and what we're truly looking at here. If a certain character makes a mistake in an episode - no matter WHAT episode it is - and it turns out not to our liking... that character is at risk of getting maimed. For other characters, if they do the same thing, everything is all fine and dandy. And, even if it isn't fine and dandy, they apparently aren't at risk of getting maimed, because they're just THAT important.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I think I'm noticing a trend of opinions, both biased and unbiased, and as someone who has NOT seen the episode yet, I'd like to ween the ones which are obviously biased out of my brain before January.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And, on the whole, I can't think of one person in this thread who hasn't brought up an excellent point in their own right. Still... I'm gonna wait and see for myself before I pass any judgment. :o

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 10:49 PM
You know, this can be said much more simply than my long rant. If Sam did something wrong she did something wrong and whatever she or anyone else did in other or whether she or anyone else got criticized enough (should we count posts?) doesn't negate it, and she should be called on it. And, if Sam didn't do anything wrong, she didn't and whatever she or anyone else did in other episodes, or whether she or anyone else got praised enough doesn't negate that. And, there are no obviously biased opinions unless someone obviously says they're only criticizing Sam because they don't like her.


And, no one is maiming Sam. People are going out of their way to say that this is one error, which to many of us is out of character because we think Sam is smarter than that. If that's maiming, than exactly what do you call it if someone did say that Sam is ruined beyond repair and was probably that dumb in the first place? Premeditated murder?

Dani347
December 15th, 2004, 11:00 PM
SG-1 thought they were doing the right thing, and that they had to take the risk because it was both possible and PLAUSIBLE for Fifth to become immune to the disruptor. Plain and simple.

How many times has the Goa'uld adapted to Earth's technology in the past? And these are freakin' Replicators, for crying out loud. They're instinctual, destructive bugs who literally feed off of technology. And then you add the fact that they're HUMAN form, and it makes a lot of sense for Fifth to have figured something out. What else COULD they have done? If Sam/Jack/Teal'c had sat back and twiddled their thumbs because they didn't believe RepliCarter, and THEN Earth had been attacked, people (fans) would have been complaining about how it was a bad decision to take NO actions against Fifth at all.


Yeah, possible and plausible for Fifth to be immune. Exact opposite that another replicator would want to help them at the risk of her own life, even with a sob story. And, you're right. These are freakin' replicators for crying out loud, which means that they aren't to be trusted. That includes RC. And, I wouldn't think they were twiddling their thumbs, because I would think that unless they came up with a sensible alternative to trusting RC with, sing it people! the only weapon that can destroy them than the reason they didn't do anything was because there was nothing they could do. Because trusting a replicator with (chorus!) is not a viable option in any sense. Not doing anything would be a risk but it would be a more intelligent risk than (sing out!)

Chevron_nine
December 15th, 2004, 11:44 PM
I haven't had time to read through all the posts, so if I'm repeating anything bear with me...


Personally I thought this was a great ep. I figured the ep could have ended two ways, Replicarter was evil and was working with Fifth, or Replicarter was good and was actually who she said she was, but tricked fifth into believing she was on his side. It turned out to be a good mix of the two.

I didn't have a problem with the "lack" of Daniel. He didn't really have a reason to be in the episode and I figure I'd rather have him out of the ep, then have him standing around for no reason.

I didn't like how Carter trusted Replicarter, it had me feeling uneasy, but even I didn't know for sure she would turn out to be evil. I don't see why everyone is having a problem with Carter trusting Replicarter. It isn't that different than when Robot SG-1 was created by Harlan. SG-1 seemed to trust RoboSG-1 pretty well. There's nothing that says ALL replicators HAVE to be evil. Fifth seemed pretty nice 'til Carter/Jack screwed him over.

To get all you shippers hopes up maybe in the future Replicarter will make a RepliJack. I'm sure there are no Air Force regulations against two alien machine robots getting together:P

Dani347
December 16th, 2004, 12:00 AM
I

I didn't have a problem with the "lack" of Daniel. He didn't really have a reason to be in the episode and I figure I'd rather have him out of the ep, then have him standing around for no reason.

I didn't like how Carter trusted Replicarter, it had me feeling uneasy, but even I didn't know for sure she would turn out to be evil. I don't see why everyone is having a problem with Carter trusting Replicarter. It isn't that different than when Robot SG-1 was created by Harlan. SG-1 seemed to trust RoboSG-1 pretty well. There's nothing that says ALL replicators HAVE to be evil. Fifth seemed pretty nice 'til Carter/Jack screwed him over.



While on the one hand I'd rather have Daniel than not, i'm also glad he was out of this. And maybe all replicators don't have to be evil, but one created by a replicator who has a grudge against you probably shouldn't be trusted. And, you don't have to necessarily be evil to want to preserve yourself. Lets say RC was telling the truth (although I think that they should have set the odds of that at negative 27) there was still the possibility that when actually faced with her death, RC might have changed her mind, and since she was handed access on a silver platter might decide to change the effects so she wouldn't be harmed. And, it is different from trusting the robots Harlan built. First, they didn't give them access to important technology. Second, they didn't have any reason to think that they are evil. RC is a replicator which means that there's a possibility that she's evil. There's a possibility that she doesn't want to help Earth. And, there's a probability that she doesn't want to die and will do whatever it takes to prevent that. You don't have to be evil to do that. It would have made more sense for RC to knock Sam out and steal the weapon than for Sam to freely give her access to it.

Hey if they want to trust RC, give her a nice suite at the SGC. Send her a complimentary gift basket. Don't, well, you know what.

Terok
December 16th, 2004, 04:44 AM
A good episode, it was fairly predictable that Replicarter was still working with Fifth, but her turning on Fifth to take control of the replicators herself kind of surprised me. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens now that she's in control.

I thought Carter was taken in by Replicarter way to easily. Seemed that Carter was more willing to trust Replicarter after they were linked and was shown what Replicarter had experienced, but surely she should have been more suspicious that she could have been shown anything.

I’m also surprised that they gave Replicarter the gate address to the alpha site in the first place, its usually the case that an SG team meet someone at a neutral location then gate to the SGC or Alpha site once they’ve checked them out, in these circumstances.

Tok'Ra Hostess
December 16th, 2004, 04:50 AM
My problem is when you say Daniel did this wrong, so why are you being so mean to Sam?

Just to clarify, Dani, because I am the one who opened this can-O-worms(sorry, sorry, sorry. I never meant to fuel a Stars war) :) I have not, nor have I ever considered Daniel's actions in defending "Kira" as wrong. His passion and compassion were in character, making them right for Daniel.

I merely used Daniel as a mirror, an example of a person acting in character, and Past&Present was a good one because three character's judgements were involved(Daniel's, Sam's & Janet's).

Peace? :)

OfF3nSiV3
December 16th, 2004, 07:11 AM
damn, the beggining of this ep was a pleasure to watch! cough carter's body cough*

shelsfc
December 16th, 2004, 08:29 AM
People keeps saying that Sam should have seen it coming but... did you? I didn't. I even knew Replicarter survived and it still didn't occur to me! :P
Yes! Well...suspected. And when I saw her chatting to Fifth the first thing I thought was 'Don't tell me she's going to betray him too....'

I think I watch too much tv. :rolleyes:

keppiezbt
December 16th, 2004, 08:30 AM
you know, ive been keeping tabs on this thread and IMO, your overanalyzing Sam here. Lets be real. She is human, she made a mistake, the writers did it purposely.

why? b.c its an easy way to evovle the replicator and replicarter story line into a big powerful doomsday enemy where they can create a whole new, much more involved arc.

simply.

.:Lemon:.
December 16th, 2004, 08:36 AM
I just watched this episode yesterday and I thought it was probably the best yet from season 8, I really enjoyed it. AT was great in this episode as Replicarter and as Carter herself. There wasn't much Daniel in the episode (Infact only one scene) but I don't think it really made a difference (No offence to Danny fans :p I still like him!) So yeah, I thought it was really interesting to see Fifth again, and just as I thought the storyline was predictable, they went and changed it :D Really good ep IMO :p

Wass
December 16th, 2004, 08:37 AM
I agree with Teal'c and Keppiezbt I didn't see it coming and people have started over analysing Sam. Sam was naive to think the replicarter had feelings just her therefore she was different from the rest of replicators.

kiwigater
December 16th, 2004, 08:55 AM
At the risk of starting a discussion NOT about Sam :p , does no one else think that the replicators would inevitably have found a way to gather the necessary information to become immune to the Ancient weapon independent of the SGC?

ie. while this incident may have hastened things, IMHO, the replicators would have figured out a way to become immune anyway. (not that this excuses what I personally see as an amazing lack of foresight on everyone's parts).

Tok'Ra Hostess
December 16th, 2004, 09:05 AM
Okay, I just rewatched Gemini(Ow! It's even better the second time around!) :D

First time I, too, thought that Rep Carter dispatched of Daniel a little too easily, but now I think that manipulative RC was trying to show that her "memories" of SG-1 came to her only during that shoot-em-up scene. At first she seemed quite prepared to shoot Jack. I think the later (feigned) look of remorse for her actions included Real Carter's feelings for Daniel - oh, and for Siler and that other guy. :D

I really like how RC kept Sam off-balance by tweaking her guilt complex over Fifth; every time Sam seemed about to doubt RC, she'd subtly remind her of Sam's betrayal. And her "wanting" to die just must've twisted the knife even more in Sam's conscious. I'd imagine that sort of manipulation would shake up even the most balanced thinkers.

As for fault, well, Teal'c was there, Jack was kept apprised, and they all decided that the benefits might outweigh the risks. I am surprised that Jack and Thor didn't have an untampered satalite in reserve for just such a situation, though - kind of like how Jack played his hidden ace in Zero Hour.

keppiezbt
December 16th, 2004, 09:06 AM
I agree with Teal'c and Keppiezbt I didn't see it coming and people have started over analysing Sam. Sam was naive to think the replicarter had feelings just her therefore she was different from the rest of replicators.

thank you. plus it would be very anticlimatic if she just walked in and they zapped her...

kiwigater
December 16th, 2004, 09:13 AM
thank you. plus it would be very anticlimatic if she just walked in and they zapped her...
not to mention an absurdly short ep :p :D
Actually, THAT would have been unpredicted wouldn't it. RC walks in, they zap her and spend the rest of the ep sitting around reading phone books..... *cough* ;) :p :D

the dancer of spaz
December 16th, 2004, 02:21 PM
While on the one hand I'd rather have Daniel than not, i'm also glad he was out of this. And maybe all replicators don't have to be evil, but one created by a replicator who has a grudge against you probably shouldn't be trusted. And, you don't have to necessarily be evil to want to preserve yourself. Lets say RC was telling the truth (although I think that they should have set the odds of that at negative 27) there was still the possibility that when actually faced with her death, RC might have changed her mind, and since she was handed access on a silver platter might decide to change the effects so she wouldn't be harmed. And, it is different from trusting the robots Harlan built. First, they didn't give them access to important technology. Second, they didn't have any reason to think that they are evil. RC is a replicator which means that there's a possibility that she's evil. There's a possibility that she doesn't want to help Earth. And, there's a probability that she doesn't want to die and will do whatever it takes to prevent that...

I do understand where you're going with this, but... well, you already know where I stand on this issue. ;)

the dancer of spaz
December 16th, 2004, 02:30 PM
you know, ive been keeping tabs on this thread and IMO, your overanalyzing Sam here. Lets be real. She is human, she made a mistake, the writers did it purposely.

why? b.c its an easy way to evovle the replicator and replicarter story line into a big powerful doomsday enemy where they can create a whole new, much more involved arc.

simply.

I don't know. I think there are some different angles that can be taken in regards to Sam's character here - especially when we look at the Dark Side of her character, and the fact that she does, indeed, have the ability to be manipulative and power-hungry.

I think that an in-depth analysis can be made of almost every ep, because every single second is there for a reason. The writers did need some kind of plot twist to further the Replicator arc, but they happen to be talented enough to get across some other elements of a character as well.

Look at Avatar: While it was a pretty neat video game ep, it also made some very deep discoveries about Teal'c's character - specifically his own insecurity and fears.

Oh, well... Don't get me started on Avatar. :)

Basically, I'm saying that I don't think it's not TOO much of an overanalysis. :D

the dancer of spaz
December 16th, 2004, 02:35 PM
At the risk of starting a discussion NOT about Sam :p , does no one else think that the replicators would inevitably have found a way to gather the necessary information to become immune to the Ancient weapon independent of the SGC?

ie. while this incident may have hastened things, IMHO, the replicators would have figured out a way to become immune anyway. (not that this excuses what I personally see as an amazing lack of foresight on everyone's parts).

Very good point, KG (as always). :D I never really thought of that. :P

Dani347
December 16th, 2004, 03:30 PM
not to mention an absurdly short ep :p :D
Actually, THAT would have been unpredicted wouldn't it. RC walks in, they zap her and spend the rest of the ep sitting around reading phone books..... *cough* ;) :p :D


How about RC walks in, they try to get all the info they can, they keep her access to (need I say it) extremely limited, she gets access through her own treachery, despite the intelligent and repeated efforts of the intelligent SG1 crew to stop her? I'm sure that there could have been an alternative to what happened and them sitting around doing nothing.

Taonas
December 16th, 2004, 04:11 PM
Great episode!!! AT did a great performance, CJ was normal... Missed have MS in the episode, but we had Thor so it evens out.

RDA actually had some good appearances, does anyone else get the feel that he actually feels like a general now?

Anyway, Replicarter is IMO one of the best adversaries they have yet... (Next to Anubis and Baal :P)

the dancer of spaz
December 16th, 2004, 04:13 PM
How about RC walks in, they try to get all the info they can, they keep her access to (need I say it) extremely limited, she gets access through her own treachery, despite the intelligent and repeated efforts of the intelligent SG1 crew to stop her? I'm sure that there could have been an alternative to what happened and them sitting around doing nothing.

It probably would have taken too long for them to get through all of the plot. :rolleyes:

Taonas
December 16th, 2004, 04:28 PM
I just realized that I'm missing part of the ending to the episode, can any one tell me what happens after Replicarter comes into the gate room and they shoot at her, all the way to the end.

Madeleine
December 16th, 2004, 08:14 PM
you know, ive been keeping tabs on this thread and IMO, your overanalyzing Sam here. Lets be real. She is human, she made a mistake,

There are mistakes that I can believe Sam would make - skirting one or two safety protocols she thought redundant in Red Sky for instance - and then there are mistakes that just don't fit.

I would not believe in Sam handing the SCG's iris codes to a goa'uld because they claimed to want to join the tok'ra. I would not believe in Sam handing a working ZPM to the Tollan cos they said "sorry we betrayed you and tried to destroy your planet, now we like the look of those ZPM thingies they's fit nicely into our planet-destroying weap- ...er, new TV set, lend us one would you?"

Do you see where I'm coming from? I don't need to analyse Sam in order to *know* that she'd never do either of those things. I certainly don't need to analyse her to know that she'd never try to bring Reese's souped-up grandchild with full knowledge of SGC working practices back to the SGC.

Buzz Lightyear
December 16th, 2004, 08:34 PM
that's good :) I just do know some people who can't accept the episode and enjoy what her mistakes will mean. Hey, it makes some good conflicts!


Maybe I'm one of those people. :cool:

Normally, I'm not bothered much by stuff that many others would find grating. However, Sam's major screw-up this episode really stood out for me. So much so that I had to rant about it.

But I feel better now for having vented. Posting about it all is strangely cathartic. :D

Buzz Lightyear
December 16th, 2004, 08:50 PM
At the risk of starting a discussion NOT about Sam :p , does no one else think that the replicators would inevitably have found a way to gather the necessary information to become immune to the Ancient weapon independent of the SGC?

ie. while this incident may have hastened things, IMHO, the replicators would have figured out a way to become immune anyway. (not that this excuses what I personally see as an amazing lack of foresight on everyone's parts).

I don't think anyone is complaining that the replicators found a way to counter the Ancient disruptor. It's how they did it that some (including me) have problems with.

Since we're talkling about a replicate Carter, whatever happened to the old-fashioned method of having the dupe impersonating the real Sam, therefore gaining access to SGC computers because the base personnel wouldn't be able to tell the difference? Teal'c is suspicious but only Jack can figure it out, but by the time he does, it's too late. This scenario would seem much more plausible than "dumb blond Carter".

sacme
December 16th, 2004, 09:10 PM
Mixed reactions about the show.

I was oh so glad, that the pacing was better and the sense of drama and danger was there. To me, the first half of the season was underwhelming and I never felt that anything was really at risk.

I'm also happy Jack seemed more alive, concerned and alert in this ep than he's been all season. I hope we get to see interaction between him and RepliCarter next time, though-- that could be hot!

AT did a very good job with the double role and evil Sam is cool.

It was obvious to me, though, that RC was playing both sides, so you could see the crosses coming. And why did they even bother shooting RC with regular guns? They're nearly indestructable, we have to formulate a whole new weapon to kill them-- and when that doesn't work we use bullets? They might as well have used water pistols or thrown rocks at her.

But I agree with others here that this ep makes Sam look terrible and Jack look like a bad commander. The truly ridiculous risks she took were mind-blowing. First off, why did they even have to meet with RC face-to-face (besides the fact that it's a tv show)? She could have been a bomb, had a bomb, she could have been Fifth in another form or, simply, she could have been like all the rest of the replis and been a consumer/destroyer. Why not keep her at a distance and talk to her over the MALP. Let the MALP shoot her in the end. Replicators are dangerous and difficult to control-- hello!

Allowing RC to put her hand in Sam's head-- excuse me! That is unforgivable. We want RC to trust us-- huh? RC could have compromised Carter and Teal'c would never have known just by talking to her afterwards. T should have stopped her and he should have told Jack that Sam coudn't be objective and was showing a lack of judgement.

Allowing RC to have total access to our only defense-- what, within hours of meeting her-- crazy.

And, personally, the fact that Sam still berates herself over her treatment of Fifth, means she can never be a good leader. If she can't make the tough decisions, protect her own first (unless an important sacrifice had to be made) and put aside her emotions when needed, the good she could do in command is limited. Carter comes off looking so weak in this ep.

I kept asking myself if Gen. Hammond would have let Sam do everything she did, and the answer kept coming back, 'no'. IMO, Hammond was way more cautious and would have never allowed Sam to keep crossing the line and get them in the jam they're in now. Jack's deference to Sam during the ep and then telling her she did nothing wrong at the end was pap. It is her fault (and his for letting her be so trusting), she did really mess up, and she did let her emotions get in the way and endanger Earth. Of course, she's done a tremendous amount of good in the past, so I'm not saying she should be punished or something, but let's not say nothing happened here. In the end, Jack should have done a better job of protecting Carter from herself. He gave her too long a rope and she hung herself.

I didn't hate the episode, it's definitely one of the better ones this season for many reasons, but I feel like the writers have really had it in for the character of Samantha Carter this year.

sacme
December 16th, 2004, 09:36 PM
I understand your frustration. Based on what I've been reading, it does seem like she was a little too quick to shoot Daniel, and, though I'm a shipper, I'd like to think that RepliCarter would have some strong residual feelings for Daniel and Teal'c that would keep her from annihilating them... To be honest, I think the writers made that so incredibly pronounced to suggest ship to those who are unfamiliar with the ship arc (yes, it's a story arc, and no one can tell me any different - sorry :o ), but that's just me.

In the world of SG-1, as a team, as a group of friends, and as a family, I would also like to think that Sam would treat all three of the guys equally...
*Shrugs*

RepliCarter, on the other hand, while evil, may have a harder time reconciling strong brotherly feelings of love and the other... kind... ;)

Does that make sense?

Probably not. :P
I didn't think the vision RC showed Carter necessarily happened. She could have just made it up to get Carter on her side by showing Sam that she was tortured by Fifth, too. But even if it did happen, I don't think you can say it represents how Sam would also act. RC is controlling her completely and feeding her memories as he sees fit. We don't really know how much of RC is Sam and how much is Fifth's creation. They have the same memories, but they are not the same person.

kiwigater
December 16th, 2004, 09:37 PM
I don't think anyone is complaining that the replicators found a way to counter the Ancient disruptor. It's how they did it that some (including me) have problems with.

I agree. I was horrified that they went to the alpha site in the first place. Isn't the idea of the alpha site that it's SECRET, not to mention that reams of classified information about Earth and it's defences is bound to be stored in computers there. I'm merely thinking that Sam didn't create the problem per se, and while RC used her as a means to an end, that end would have been achieved with or without the decidedly naive and foolish actions of the SGC personel.


Since we're talkling about a replicate Carter, whatever happened to the old-fashioned method of having the dupe impersonating the real Sam, therefore gaining access to SGC computers because the base personnel wouldn't be able to tell the difference? Teal'c is suspicious but only Jack can figure it out, but by the time he does, it's too late. This scenario would seem much more plausible than "dumb blond Carter".
Well, Sam did say that they had scanners that would detect replicators (thus preventing them from impersonating base personel), and at a minimum I'm fairly sure they would never let Sam and RC be in a position where RC could impersonate Sam. (not that you would know it from their actions in Gemini :S )

sacme
December 16th, 2004, 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by keppiezbt
you know, ive been keeping tabs on this thread and IMO, your overanalyzing Sam here. Lets be real. She is human, she made a mistake, the writers did it purposely.

why? b.c its an easy way to evovle the replicator and replicarter story line into a big powerful doomsday enemy where they can create a whole new, much more involved arc.

simply.
when writers bend too much to get to another place, the story and characters can suffer. if the characters are just tools, then an audience won't care about them. if the story has too many plot holes, an audience won't care about the show. writers shouldn't always take the easy route.

Skydiver
December 17th, 2004, 04:45 AM
I'm not fussing about how Sam was portrayed. hell, they already mucked up the character with her pining over pete, what's a little more

I think it got more of a picture of sam out of replicarter. Sam is terrified underdeath, afraid of going too far or losing control or doing too much. she uses the rules and regs as reasons not to take risks.

gemini did expose a weakenss though....jack trusts sam, probably too much. she can almost do whatever she wants and he lacks the ability to yank her back.

someone said hammond would have said no. and you're probably right. maybe he would have. but there also would have been a different chain of command. sam would have had to follow jack's orders and proven her theory tohim before he convinced hammond.

that did change things a bit.

now we dont' have that filter. Sam, as we've been shown, can get a bit obsessed adn focussed. Without someone to hold her back, she lets her focus distract her and keep her from seeing the big picture.

What i do think is funny....sam is always criticized for being 'super sam' and never making mistakes.

well she did. big time. So she screwed up...now we get to see how she deals with making that mistake and how/if she fixes it

Other than that, i thought it was a good episode. very dramatic, very twisty. of course RC was betraying someone....you just didn't now exactly WHO she was betraying until the end...and to be truthful, you cant' even be sure how it'll all play out

Tok'Ra Hostess
December 17th, 2004, 07:31 AM
Another really cool thing about this new arc is that RC not only wants to rule the uuniverse, but if she has her way, Sam will be the last person standing when she does conquer it.

I think that's why RC didn't destroy Alpha site and why she left Sam her arm; she will taunt Sam, right down to the end, because lovers of power need an audience, someone to acknowledge their power. RC's brethren aren't capable of doing so, and who better to justify herself to than the very person she was modeled after.

This arc has great potential!

Skydiver
December 17th, 2004, 09:34 AM
it does have great potential.

jack and teal'c have faced their demons. they've dealt with and know their dark side...sam never has. She's never known just how far she will go, how much of a line she'll cross. she has no idea just what she's capable of.

she thinks she knows herself. and because of that, she thought she knew RC. but she doesnt'. she's got the surface picture of her soul and has never looked into it.

this has the potential for sam to face the very anti-thesis of herself and she'll have to conquer it or know that the galaxy will die because of her.

RC knows sam's fatal weakness and if sam has any hope of stopping her, she needs to discover, face and conquer that weakness. or, like you said, she'll be the sole survivor and watch her whole world die

Dani347
December 17th, 2004, 09:40 AM
But, is it Sam's weakness and darkside, or RC's? Is it really her soul she's looking into?

Tok'Ra Hostess
December 17th, 2004, 09:54 AM
But, is it Sam's weakness and darkside, or RC's? Is it really her soul she's looking into?

Let's hope we get the chance to find out.

<invokes TPTB> Please, please, please don't drop the ball on this arc!

Wyrminarrd
December 17th, 2004, 12:32 PM
This show was about as stupid as they get. Right from the start I was saying "Shoot her now! It´s obviously a trick!" but did they do that? No, they instead let a potential enemy have access to the only weapon that could kill her! The level of stupidity required for this is of monumental proportions and clearly outlines that Carter should not be allowed to run SG-1, she simply doesn´t have the needed security concerns to handle the job.

Can any of you imagine that in 1945 if a russian scientist came to the USA and said that Russia had developed a counter measure against nukes but he were allowed to see all the details about the technology he would be able to build a version that could get through the shield? And add to that the USA would know he could still communicate with Russia in a way that they can´t monitor. You´d have to be pretty low on the IQ scale to believe that they would.

Carter and O´Neill should be glad I´m not their CO, I´d have them court marshaled for this and thrown in jail for the rest of their lives. YOU DO NOT GIVE THE ENEMY ACCESS TO YOUR WEAPONS!

Buzz Lightyear
December 17th, 2004, 10:11 PM
Well, Sam did say that they had scanners that would detect replicators (thus preventing them from impersonating base personel), and at a minimum I'm fairly sure they would never let Sam and RC be in a position where RC could impersonate Sam. (not that you would know it from their actions in Gemini :S )

I think they said they have ways of screening whoever comes through the gate to tell if they're replicators, but I doubt they'd have scanners in every single part of the SGC or the Alpha site.

In any case, the challenge for the writers in this scenario would be to figure out how to have RepliCarter walk in through the front door but somehow manage to manipulate Sam into dropping her guard long enough for RC to briefly assume her identity and secretly access SGC computers. At least in this case, Carter wouldn't be handing over the Ancient technology on a silver platter.

Aisling
December 18th, 2004, 12:37 AM
I absolutely adored Replicarter. The writers have totally trashed Carter's credibility with the whole whining, vacillating teenaged BS over Pete. So it was refreshing to see shades of the Carter we met at the beginning of the series.
So what if Replicarter is a power mad machine, at least she knows what she wants and is willing to go after it.
Carter is so diminished these days I have a hard time watching her. She isn't fit to command a Brownie troup much less a front line unit. Maybe we could trade Carter for Replicarter.

I think this has been one of the better episodes this season. A lot more character insights than usual. I just hope the writers follow up on what they started.

sacme
December 18th, 2004, 12:54 AM
Another really cool thing about this new arc is that RC not only wants to rule the uuniverse, but if she has her way, Sam will be the last person standing when she does conquer it.

I think that's why RC didn't destroy Alpha site and why she left Sam her arm; she will taunt Sam, right down to the end, because lovers of power need an audience, someone to acknowledge their power. RC's brethren aren't capable of doing so, and who better to justify herself to than the very person she was modeled after.

This arc has great potential!coudn't we still have had this if Sam had just been outsmarted by RC, instead of Sam being so, IMO, unprofessional?

Tok'Ra Hostess
December 18th, 2004, 06:09 AM
coudn't we still have had this if Sam had just been outsmarted by RC, instead of Sam being so, IMO, unprofessional?

But it didn't happen that way, as we all know. I was simply commenting on the wealyh of potential for both characters based on what did transpire in Gemini.

Tok'Ra Hostess
December 18th, 2004, 06:39 AM
Can any of you imagine that in 1945 if a russian scientist came to the USA and said that Russia had developed a counter measure against nukes but he were allowed to see all the details about the technology he would be able to build a version that could get through the shield? And add to that the USA would know he could still communicate with Russia in a way that they can´t monitor. You´d have to be pretty low on the IQ scale to believe that they would.



Actually, the circumstanial evidence points to that very scenario repeating itself over and over again. It's not pure innocent coincidence that both superpowers developed essentially the same types of strategic weapons simultaneously. The fact that they were both busily engaged in stockpiling weapons of mass destruction aside, there was a lot of idiocy and incompetance involved.

And if we consider the Manhattan project, we have Albert Einstein, a German national who sent a warning letter to President Truman that the Germans were quite in a position to build the atomic bomb. Einstein went on to become one of the primary four who worked on the Manhattan Project - the project that gave the US the bomb. (Turns out Germany wasn't even working on an A-bomb.)

Now, of course, I've left out a ton of details, like the fact that Einstein was by that time an American, had renounced his German citizenship long before the war broke out, and because of his Jewish heritage, was not even welcome in Germany at that time.

RC kind of made the same convincing arguements, only within the constraints of a 44 minute episode.

No doubt these mitigating factors helped the top brass in the US gov't have more faith in Einstein , and Bohr - another German national refugee (or was he...? ;) ), and other guys with very German sounding names. Of course they watched them like hawks, but let's face it, at the time, who was smart enough, and American enough to watch them?

What happened in Gemini was a disaster, but it hardly set a precedant. :rolleyes:

MajorSam
December 18th, 2004, 06:53 AM
I absolutely adored Replicarter. The writers have totally trashed Carter's credibility with the whole whining, vacillating teenaged BS over Pete. So it was refreshing to see shades of the Carter we met at the beginning of the series.
So what if Replicarter is a power mad machine, at least she knows what she wants and is willing to go after it.
Carter is so diminished these days I have a hard time watching her. She isn't fit to command a Brownie troup much less a front line unit. Maybe we could trade Carter for Replicarter.

I think this has been one of the better episodes this season. A lot more character insights than usual. I just hope the writers follow up on what they started.

I agree! :D Well, not 100% with the vacillating teenaged BS (although it is BS still) But Replicarter is a BRILLIANT character, and one which i've been hoping for since I started watching late season one. I can't wait for the follow-ups to all this. Sam's always been the good little soldier, I love seeing screw-ups and over everything else, EVILNESS! :D

Albion
December 18th, 2004, 08:56 AM
First time I, too, thought that Rep Carter dispatched of Daniel a little too easily, but now I think that manipulative RC was trying to show that her "memories" of SG-1 came to her only during that shoot-em-up scene. At first she seemed quite prepared to shoot Jack. I think the later (feigned) look of remorse for her actions included Real Carter's feelings for Daniel - oh, and for Siler and that other guy.

You know, you have a very interesting point there, Tok'Ra Hostess. And it made me think of a theory, too.

IIRC, when RepliCarter first arrives at the Alpha Site she says something to the effect of "I know you. You're...Teal'c." So, she has the vaguest memory of Teal'c in that moment. Her manner there is hesitant, a 'Do I know you?' moment rather than something firm and self-confident. It's an indicator that her memories are constantly being added to and aren't complete. That she's remembering more as each minute passes.

IOW, she didn't just get all of Carter's memories handed to her in a clump, right at the start of her existance. It's been an ongoing process, with blanks filled in as she goes.

Now...given this to be the case...it's perfectly possible that in the scenario Fifth set up for her she didn't recognise Daniel as anyone important and so had no problem shooting him right off the bat. It is undeniable that Carter's emotions regarding Jack are much stronger than they are for Daniel or Teal'c. Therefore, Jack was the one ReplicCarter remembered first and so she hesitated over shooting him.

Maybe she felt bad about being so trigger happy later, when she remembered who Daniel was. :D

Albion :)

Catysg1
December 19th, 2004, 05:37 AM
Mixed reactions about the show.

I was oh so glad, that the pacing was better and the sense of drama and danger was there. To me, the first half of the season was underwhelming and I never felt that anything was really at risk.

I'm also happy Jack seemed more alive, concerned and alert in this ep than he's been all season. I hope we get to see interaction between him and RepliCarter next time, though-- that could be hot!

AT did a very good job with the double role and evil Sam is cool.

It was obvious to me, though, that RC was playing both sides, so you could see the crosses coming. And why did they even bother shooting RC with regular guns? They're nearly indestructable, we have to formulate a whole new weapon to kill them-- and when that doesn't work we use bullets? They might as well have used water pistols or thrown rocks at her.

But I agree with others here that this ep makes Sam look terrible and Jack look like a bad commander. The truly ridiculous risks she took were mind-blowing. First off, why did they even have to meet with RC face-to-face (besides the fact that it's a tv show)? She could have been a bomb, had a bomb, she could have been Fifth in another form or, simply, she could have been like all the rest of the replis and been a consumer/destroyer. Why not keep her at a distance and talk to her over the MALP. Let the MALP shoot her in the end. Replicators are dangerous and difficult to control-- hello!

Allowing RC to put her hand in Sam's head-- excuse me! That is unforgivable. We want RC to trust us-- huh? RC could have compromised Carter and Teal'c would never have known just by talking to her afterwards. T should have stopped her and he should have told Jack that Sam coudn't be objective and was showing a lack of judgement.

Allowing RC to have total access to our only defense-- what, within hours of meeting her-- crazy.

And, personally, the fact that Sam still berates herself over her treatment of Fifth, means she can never be a good leader. If she can't make the tough decisions, protect her own first (unless an important sacrifice had to be made) and put aside her emotions when needed, the good she could do in command is limited. Carter comes off looking so weak in this ep.

I kept asking myself if Gen. Hammond would have let Sam do everything she did, and the answer kept coming back, 'no'. IMO, Hammond was way more cautious and would have never allowed Sam to keep crossing the line and get them in the jam they're in now. Jack's deference to Sam during the ep and then telling her she did nothing wrong at the end was pap. It is her fault (and his for letting her be so trusting), she did really mess up, and she did let her emotions get in the way and endanger Earth. Of course, she's done a tremendous amount of good in the past, so I'm not saying she should be punished or something, but let's not say nothing happened here. In the end, Jack should have done a better job of protecting Carter from herself. He gave her too long a rope and she hung herself.

I didn't hate the episode, it's definitely one of the better ones this season for many reasons, but I feel like the writers have really had it in for the character of Samantha Carter this year.



May be they( tptb and writers) are doing it on purpose so that Sam becomes a doctor scientist in season 9 ..with no going off world ..Jack will be civilian and BB will be head of SG1 ..who knows !!!


Caty ;)

keshou
December 19th, 2004, 05:40 AM
Finally saw this. Well except for the last 4 minutes or so (technical difficulties ;)

I liked it! The episode moved right along, very dramatic. There was some nice twists and if I hadn't been spoiled as to RC's turning the table on Fifth, i don't think I would have guessed that. Loved the scenes between RC and Sam - even though RC kind of ate Sam's lunch in the outwitting department. :p AT did a nice job playing both roles. :D

There were certainly flaws - mainly because the aim of the episode was to set up RC as the big bad in the replicator world. So everyone had to look kind of stupid in this one.

Still, I enjoyed the insights Sam's character and hope we get some more meetings between Sam and RC down the road. I like it when Sam screws up once in awhile. She's human and she tends to get obsessed with finding the answers.

I'm not crazy about this new trend of saying "it's all okay, not your fault". I really think they should all be nodding their heads saying "yeah, we all screwed up, now let's figure out how to fix it". They've done that several times in recent years (with all the characters) and it's starting to wear a little thin.

Interesting that they seem to be continuing Jack's personal "I'm too close to the team to do this job" arc. First in New Order he kind of froze and in this episode he really gave Sam a little too much leeway. I really miss Hammond in these kind of situations because there was more of a buffer in the chain of command. Jack trusts SG-1 to pull the rabbit out of the hat - almost too much. Hmm....wonder if they're heading someplace with this. Perhaps Jack's retirement?

Tok'Ra Hostess
December 19th, 2004, 07:27 AM
I just want to add:

Kudos to the folks behind the actors! I was so caught up in the drama that I didn't even notice how seamless RC and HC were in their appearances together.

On the third viewing :D I really concentrated on the VFX and I have to say this was the best VFX of that sort I remember seeing.

Gemini was an award-worthy ep, for terrific acting, terrific drama and terrific VFX, IMO.

Calicto
December 19th, 2004, 05:58 PM
Definitely a good episode.

Reminded me of the CYLONS from the new Battlestar Galactica, which in my opinion is definitely a GOOD THING.

Wyrminarrd
December 20th, 2004, 04:09 AM
Actually, the circumstanial evidence points to that very scenario repeating itself over and over again. It's not pure innocent coincidence that both superpowers developed essentially the same types of strategic weapons simultaneously. The fact that they were both busily engaged in stockpiling weapons of mass destruction aside, there was a lot of idiocy and incompetance involved.

And if we consider the Manhattan project, we have Albert Einstein, a German national who sent a warning letter to President Truman that the Germans were quite in a position to build the atomic bomb. Einstein went on to become one of the primary four who worked on the Manhattan Project - the project that gave the US the bomb. (Turns out Germany wasn't even working on an A-bomb.)

Now, of course, I've left out a ton of details, like the fact that Einstein was by that time an American, had renounced his German citizenship long before the war broke out, and because of his Jewish heritage, was not even welcome in Germany at that time.

RC kind of made the same convincing arguements, only within the constraints of a 44 minute episode.

No doubt these mitigating factors helped the top brass in the US gov't have more faith in Einstein , and Bohr - another German national refugee (or was he...? ;) ), and other guys with very German sounding names. Of course they watched them like hawks, but let's face it, at the time, who was smart enough, and American enough to watch them?

What happened in Gemini was a disaster, but it hardly set a precedant. :rolleyes:


But here the horrible mistake was made even greater as the weapon in question was the ONLY weapon that could have any effects.

Plus the USA could watch Einstein and make sure that he didn´t communicate with Germany (there were propably many,many agents assigned to the project with only that job to do). Carter on the other hand knew that RC could communicate with the hive mind in a way that was impossible to monitor.

I see why the writers wanted this to happen, after all if the replicators were so easily defeated then RC would be a pretty useless character to have floating around but that still doesn´t excuse this kind of sloppy writing, there is no way that the airforce would have actually done things like this.

Plus a simple logical exercise would have told them alot about RC´s motives. #1: She might have a perfect copy of Carters mind and thus know what she would do.
#2: As Carter was the one who wanted to study RC and keep her alive you can infere from #1 that RC knew this and thus knew she would gain access to alpha site despite saying she only wanted to be destroyed.
#3: If she knows this then she must have an alternate agenda with coming there and the most obvious one would be to gain access to information on the weapon.
#4: Carters judgement can´t be trusted in any matter regarding the clone and any decision she made regarding it should be viewed with suspicion.

From that you can easily see that the right course of action would have been to grant RC´s request at the start and simply shoot her the moment she came through the gate, or atleast say that they were going to do it and see how she would react to it.

DarkQuee1
December 21st, 2004, 12:39 PM
Too trusting, right.

Can anyone come up with a good fix for Carter's gulibility? I've tried for thirty whole seconds and failed, but if anyone is less addled and lazy than me...

??


Uh, bad writing?

They needed RepliCarter to be able to get her hands on the cipher and they couldn't think of a good way to do it, so....let's have everyone suffer from Dumb-Itis.

J.

Mike
December 22nd, 2004, 09:38 AM
I loved the line at the end when replicarter said something to the effect of, "Fifth taught me betrayal, and you taught it to Fifth". That line pretty much summed it up for me.

Kind of sad to see Fifth go. I loved the character.

Lord You
December 27th, 2004, 10:37 PM
But here the horrible mistake was made even greater as the weapon in question was the ONLY weapon that could have any effects. Well, human projectile weapons can certainly affect replicators too - in fact that was one reason for the Asgard's recruiting Earthlings to help them out so many times.

The humanoid replicators are immune to such weapons, but they require rare materials to construct and regular replicators still compromise most of their technology. I also doubt Replicarter will risk making another humanoid replicator that could challenge her power over the others given her actions in Gemini. (Note that I haven't seen the episode yet.) So replicator technology still is vulnerable to kinetic weapons in practice.

I wonder why bullets can stop replicators, though. Perhaps the shock "scrambles their circuits?"

keppiezbt
December 29th, 2004, 02:38 PM
i just saw this episode and well, it kidna sucked. i had high hopes for it but i was dissapointed. i thought oneill should have been much tougher and u could see a mile away she was playing them.

2 stars

Nathan
December 30th, 2004, 02:41 AM
It was just shown here in Australia.

Interesting. So I guess we know who the major new bad guy is for season nine.

I liked this:

Replicater: I am Samantha Cater
Jack: We already have one of those
Replicarter: There are two of us
Jack: If only.

Aioth
December 30th, 2004, 03:49 AM
I've just seen Gemini in Australia, and TBH, it was obvious that it was a trap. A trap of star wars (http://aioth.atomhosting.info/macros/trap.jpg) proportions. Surely the Air Force would have set guidelines to follow in the case of prisoners, which I expect would include not showing them blueprints to your secret weapons. Kind of ruined the suspension of disbelief.

Not that bad though. If I had to, I'd give it 9/20.

keppiezbt
December 30th, 2004, 08:51 AM
I've just seen Gemini in Australia, and TBH, it was obvious that it was a trap. A trap of star wars (http://aioth.atomhosting.info/macros/trap.jpg) proportions. Surely the Air Force would have set guidelines to follow in the case of prisoners, which I expect would include not showing them blueprints to your secret weapons. Kind of ruined the suspension of disbelief.

Not that bad though. If I had to, I'd give it 9/20.

it was obvious carter let her feelings get in the way and she was right to say at the end it was her fault....

anyone with a brain could have seen it was a trap a mile away....so obvious...

DetriusXii
December 30th, 2004, 09:19 AM
Well, human projectile weapons can certainly affect replicators too - in fact that was one reason for the Asgard's recruiting Earthlings to help them out so many times.

The humanoid replicators are immune to such weapons, but they require rare materials to construct and regular replicators still compromise most of their technology. I also doubt Replicarter will risk making another humanoid replicator that could challenge her power over the others given her actions in Gemini. (Note that I haven't seen the episode yet.) So replicator technology still is vulnerable to kinetic weapons in practice.

I wonder why bullets can stop replicators, though. Perhaps the shock "scrambles their circuits?"

In previous episodes, it was shown that human hand weapons weapons couldn't really prevent a swarm of replicators taking over. In the episode with Reese, the Replicators still had an advantage and their only real option (if Reese wasn't there) would be to detonate the nuke. And realistically, when SG1 encounters human form replicators, are we going to see them run away every episode? Asgard ships couldn't prevent the Replicators from replicating and if one human form replicator manages to board a ship, that ship is screwed. The ancient weapon still remains the only weapon that dealt with replicators and their ability to reproduce.

The Kender
December 30th, 2004, 06:26 PM
OMG..how stupid was Carter, i can't believe she trusted the Replicator version of herself...Hello its a Replicator...doesn't matter what it looks like its still a Replicator and can't be trusted.

Replicator Carter was cool though.

Nathan
December 30th, 2004, 07:30 PM
Yeah it was a bit stupid to let an enemy have full and unrestricted access to the plans for the only weapon that can permanently stop them.

I think Carter should have been severely reprimanded for that or at least have a mark on her record for handing over plans to the enemy.

Essentially that weapon stopped the replicators getting into our galaxy. Now that weapon is ineffective and the replicators are here and will cause trouble. Sam is responsible, she allowed her feelings of hate for fifth to cloud her professional judgement and in doing so let the enemy get into our galaxy. She should be demoted back to Major - she obviously can't handle command positions yet

Lord You
December 30th, 2004, 10:22 PM
In previous episodes, it was shown that human hand weapons weapons couldn't really prevent a swarm of replicators taking over. In the episode with Reese, the Replicators still had an advantage and their only real option (if Reese wasn't there) would be to detonate the nuke. Actually, it was shown that Replicators usually win by brute force when they can't adapt to a new technology. The trick to defeating the Reps is to destroy any initial incursion before they gain a foothold. That's when they're weakest, and apparently they can't instantaneously communicate with the others of their kind (otherwise the Replicators would have overrun the Milky Way shortly after the first episode featuring them).


And realistically, when SG1 encounters human form replicators, are we going to see them run away every episode? Asgard ships couldn't prevent the Replicators from replicating and if one human form replicator manages to board a ship, that ship is screwed. The ancient weapon still remains the only weapon that dealt with replicators and their ability to reproduce. The ancient weapon is the most effective weapon against the replicators, but there are still other defenses. Kinetic weapons still sometimes work. The good old "blow the star up" plan would probably still work, as would sucking them into a black hole (if they don't have a time-dilation device lying around) or blowing them up in hyperspace. Or allowing an energy-creature to drain their power. Or heat from uncontrolled decent into an atmosphere. Or chemical attacks on their component alloys (like rusting ferrite). Or possibly energy damping fields that can stop Wraith ships. Or... ;)

Note: I'm not saying it wasn't a goof to allow Replicarter access to the Ancient weapon... just not a completely obvious goof.

Easter Lily
December 31st, 2004, 11:57 AM
Eeeek... I wasn't not very impressed with this episode overall. Characterization seemed very shonky. Like others have said, one doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to see that this evil twin thing from 10 000 light years away :( . Seems to me that it puts a huge question mark on Carter's ability to make difficult command decisions. The only redeeming factor from the episode was Amanda Tapping's performance.

With all the complaints and condemnation about this season that I've heard so far, this is the one that seems to me to fit the bill.

Nathan
January 1st, 2005, 03:57 AM
I agree Amanda's performance was great. Loved how she kicked all the guards butts.

Jedi Daniel
January 2nd, 2005, 04:11 AM
Saw this episode last week and it was easily the best episode of Season 8 so far. Had a great storyline, good to see the Alpha site being used more, Amanda was great in both roles and and we have two Carters again :)

Easter Lily
January 2nd, 2005, 01:56 PM
I agree Amanda's performance was great. Loved how she kicked all the guards butts.

Or when she gave that evil smile... ;)

DetriusXii
January 4th, 2005, 07:54 PM
Actually, it was shown that Replicators usually win by brute force when they can't adapt to a new technology. The trick to defeating the Reps is to destroy any initial incursion before they gain a foothold. That's when they're weakest, and apparently they can't instantaneously communicate with the others of their kind (otherwise the Replicators would have overrun the Milky Way shortly after the first episode featuring them).

The ancient weapon is the most effective weapon against the replicators, but there are still other defenses. Kinetic weapons still sometimes work. The good old "blow the star up" plan would probably still work, as would sucking them into a black hole (if they don't have a time-dilation device lying around) or blowing them up in hyperspace. Or allowing an energy-creature to drain their power. Or heat from uncontrolled decent into an atmosphere. Or chemical attacks on their component alloys (like rusting ferrite). Or possibly energy damping fields that can stop Wraith ships. Or... ;)

Note: I'm not saying it wasn't a goof to allow Replicarter access to the Ancient weapon... just not a completely obvious goof.

In season 8, the debris from the destroyed replicator ship was still capable of replicating and forming a replicator army. There is no way for any of the present races so far to account for all the landing vectors. There is no way to stop the replicator foothold if they arrive by ship because even the most powerful non-ascended race (excluding the Nox) was not capable of targeting all the vectors to destroy individual replicator blocks. Your argument is moot.

Loopy
January 7th, 2005, 02:59 AM
I'm going to agree with a lot of people in this thread about the silliness of this episode in regards to letting Replicarter have access to the computers and their only weapon against the replicators. The acting and everything else I thought was good but I was waiting for Teal'c and/or Carter to go "we knew it was a trap and thats why we set this trap for you too". But then they didn't. I was really disappointed because, come on, they are not that dumb to let an enemy have access to their best weapon. I've liked this season so far, even though I know a lot of people haven't but I thought this episode was poor in terms of storyline (well, the conclusion of the storyline really).

DetriusXii
January 12th, 2005, 09:17 PM
Also, it seemed like they killed off Fifth in this episode because the actor was getting chubbier.. Just wouldn't fit with Replicators if the human actor was gaining a few pounds.

Quinn Mallory
January 18th, 2005, 09:47 AM
I'm going to agree with a lot of people in this thread about the silliness of this episode in regards to letting Replicarter have access to the computers and their only weapon against the replicators. The acting and everything else I thought was good but I was waiting for Teal'c and/or Carter to go "we knew it was a trap and thats why we set this trap for you too". But then they didn't. I was really disappointed because, come on, they are not that dumb to let an enemy have access to their best weapon. I've liked this season so far, even though I know a lot of people haven't but I thought this episode was poor in terms of storyline (well, the conclusion of the storyline really).

I liked this episode. I think it's good to have an episode once in awhile that shows the main characters making not so great decisions to remind us that they are supposed to be just regular human. Carter trusted her replicated self a bit too much but it was only natural. I'm looking forward to another replicator Carter episode (or episodes arc) in season 9.

shockwave
January 18th, 2005, 11:30 AM
the reps will most likely be defeaten in S8, either in Reckoning or Threads, RCC said this in an earlier interview

Major Fischer
January 21st, 2005, 05:01 PM
So.... I'm not reading the pages of earlier information, if I repeat, I'm sorry. And in the tradition of the Ugly Pig....


Fischer's Pointless Rambling about Gemini

Long inhale.

In general feeling this episode was kind of creepy, which is I suppose the way it was intented, but i quickly found it painful to watch. Like so many things in the eighth season, it seems that Lieutenant Colonel Samantha Carter is more teenage or twenty something girl, and not the forty year old professional soldier that we are supposed to believe her character to be.

Not helped by the tank tops and boobs look they've been useing lately. It makes her look unprofessional and brings me out of the universe. Yes, it's something that a soldier might wear if it was very hot, or she was doing dirty work, but not on a CONUS base. It's silly. Please stop.

In similar vains, I was disturbed by this buisness of Carter being too involved in the situation to have done what was important to the situation that was a threat to the galaxy. Good acting on Amanda Tappings part, a shame it was to the detrement of her own character. I hope the writers get out of this funk.

Not a horrible story, simply one that I wish had not been written the way it was for one particular character. Unfortunately, it was the central character in the story. I found myself routing more for Replicarter than for Sam herself, because the emotionless badguy was more interesting to watch. I suppose they are trying to make a more sustainable badguy where Fifth, though well acted, did not work more than a few episodes.

One of the few things I didn't mind in this episode was the use of Jack, which seemed fairly well done given that his scenes were so obviously filmed seperately from the others. I did feel that Jack and Teal'c both did not respect Carter as a soldier or a commander and... well, we come back to the issues about this episode that bothered me.

* Odds and ends... one of the minor speaking parts had one monster of a Canadian accent. But oh well, I was already well into hating the episode by that point, if I'm noticing the accents on the airmen, it's a bad sign.

Osiris-RA
January 21st, 2005, 05:53 PM
*looks around* Okay, no need to start a dumb thread. Here's the forum. *slaps forehead* could've found it earliar.

Anyway, liked Gemini. I was kind of surprised that RepliCarter was more like the first Human Replicators instead of like Reese. I liked Reese, she felt more human that Replicator Carter.

And it seemed a tad out of character too for Sam to be so friendly and protective of this replicator. She seemed to be seduced by her reflection in the face of the Replicator. Then she seemed surprised when RepliCarter betrayed her.

I was like - "well, serves you right, sam!" when Replicarter stepped through the gate. And that arm scene was soooo cool. Then what does Sam go and do? She goes and disects the arm particals. How typical. I kinda wished T had just blasted her, but then we wouldn't have this much cooler baddie floating around the universe.

Seriously though, I thought Replicator Carter would be more human. I liked Reese beacause although she was wacky and kind of childish, she was so dangerous and kind of maniacal. You underestimate her when you first see her. I was so with Daniel when he said, "You son of a b***h", to Jack. :mad:

So, in effect, that's what the replicators are. They were toys, really, and they became these monstrous machines out there for one objective - to multiply and multiply. Even good 'ol Fifth had more feeling and emotion than Replicarter. He too was surprised when she black mailed him. HIM! But, what I hope is that neither Fifth nor Reese are truly gone. They'll probably come back and defeat Uber-RepliCarter together or something like that. That'd be cool.

I hope RepliCarter decorates her ship a little better - like, less shades of grey? :rolleyes:

ShardsofGlass
January 21st, 2005, 06:05 PM
Before I start, I have to tell you that I'm relatively new to Stargate, and I'm watching it more religiously now because I'm excited about Ben Browder for Season 9.

That said, was it me, or was Gemini an incredibly boring episode? Almost nothing seemed to happen, other than a lot of standing around and talking. Tealc virtually had nothing to do. Jack was gone for the most part. Daniel was missing. This thing moved at a snail's pace. There was no urgency at all until the very end. There needed to be more twists or action or something because at times I felt like I was watching office workers talking shop, which is quite boring.

And I have to ask about Sam. Does she ever show emotions? She seemed to take everything in stride, which just seemed really strange to me. It's like watching Mr. Spock or Data.

I'm not trying to start anything other than to express my opinion, but I did not like this episode at all. In fact, it's down there with the worst episodes I've seen on TV ever in any show.

greytop
January 21st, 2005, 06:09 PM
IMO, I thought it was an okay episode.

Bobthespirit
January 21st, 2005, 06:15 PM
I thought this episode was a little boring -- until the twist at the end.

I predicted that Replicarter was actually two timing Fifth to get him killed, but I thought it was the classic cliche: "She was so much like Carter she was actually a good guy" and she'd somehow end up dead. I was pleased to see -- which redeemed the entire episode -- that Carter was actually working from her own agenda.

Although, the whole replicator arc seems a little straightforward. The replicators are so much more powerful than the good guys that every time they want to win they have to just invent some new technology that will do it. Either that or they have to resort to that 'made it too human to be evil' cliche that I thought they were doing originally.

Daniel's_twin
January 21st, 2005, 06:39 PM
I seriously enjoyed this episode and was not disappointed for my wait. The effects seemed so subtle, and I was satisfied with the action as well as some ship that was subtly shown between Sam and Jack was definitely more then I had expected. It was also interesting how they were able to make you think two things at once but then come up with an option number three for the conclusion. Who else fears the wrath of Replicarter? :cool:

Icemancmd
January 21st, 2005, 06:42 PM
Saw this episode last week and it was easily the best episode of Season 8 so far. Had a great storyline, good to see the Alpha site being used more, Amanda was great in both roles and and we have two Carters again :)

Best ep of season 8? Not by a long shot...it was ok. I would give it a 6.5/10


What was that bum excuse they had in the begining to have Daniel not be in the ep? Someone want to remind me? Thanks.

cobraR478
January 21st, 2005, 06:45 PM
And I have to ask about Sam. Does she ever show emotions? She seemed to take everything in stride, which just seemed really strange to me. It's like watching Mr. Spock or Data.

Umm.. Her emotions were the cause of the whole storyline.. and possible destruction of the galaxy.

Jonisa
January 21st, 2005, 06:48 PM
That said, was it me, or was Gemini an incredibly boring episode? Almost nothing seemed to happen, other than a lot of standing around and talking. Tealc virtually had nothing to do. Jack was gone for the most part. Daniel was missing. This thing moved at a snail's pace.


Wasn't just you. I tried to keep watching but it was putting me to sleep. I kept waiting for something interesting to happen and I finally gave up about forty minutes in or so. Guess I missed a twist at the end? Oh darn. It just wasn't worth any more of my time plus I couldn't buy Sam being that gullible. Maybe it's because I'm not a shipper? Was it shippy? Jeez, I guess I was too bored to even notice. Or care.

Maybe if they would have had poor Daniel who was obviously trapped in the elevator for the entire episode banging on the door trying to get out in the background. That might have added a little something. :p

What a yawner. This is one of my "way boring--never bother watching again" episodes such as Prodigy. MHO, of course.

keshou
January 21st, 2005, 06:54 PM
You know I kind of liked it better the first time I saw it - in spite of Carter looking gullible beyond belief. I thought Replicarter was kind of interesting. But it sure didn't hold up to a rewatch.

It really was paced very slowly and it's very obvious that all the extras and the budget were over on Atlantis. I ended up mainly concentrating on the shades of lipstick Replicarter and Carter were wearing. I think they were the same, although RC's looked a little glossier. Guess they have Max Factor everywhere!

CUL8TRJACK
January 21st, 2005, 06:59 PM
Oddly, I seem to be one of the few people who seemed to like this episode, in part due to the fact that I truly love watching Amanda Tapping.

I'm not really one to tear an episode apart. Either the episode does something for me, or it doesn't. One can't expect that after eight years and over 150 episodes that every one is going to be a stroke of genius. The fact that the show has lasted this long is in it self a great accomplishment. I try to just be entertained and to envision where the writers might be going with with the storylines.

I watch television one night a week, because even when the episode is what most would be considered a real stinker, SG-1 is still better than 90% of the crap on the tube anymore.

Now I don't like everything about this particular episode but I totally think the way it was handled allows for a much bigger confrontation later. Yes, Teal'c could have blown her away in the beginning, but that would have made for a very short episode. Yes, Carter allowed her feelings to cloud her judgement; a decision that will eventually come back and bite her in the a$$. But none of the SG-1 members are infallible. Even as uncaring and immoral Jack can appear at times (as with his decision to betray Fifth ), Jack has allowed his feelings to cloud his decisions( as was the case in allowing Nirrti to leave the SGC inorder to save Cassandra ). We all know he regretted agreeing to do that later.

In the end, Carter knows she has really screwed up and I think that any confrontation between these two characters will only be that much more intense due to what's happened. I don't believe Carter will allow herself to be so manipulated in the future.

Overall, I think Amanda Tapping did a wonderful job playing both parts. I found myself asking Carter what the hell she was doing while at the same time cheering Tapping for the great work she did with Replicarter. I think her portrayal of Replicarter is one of the more evil foes the SGC has had. She really does come across as cunning, deceptive and unremorseful.

Probably the biggest issue I did have with this episode had to be with the choice of clothing. When I first saw the sleeveless shirt I questioned whether a real Lt Colonel would be walking around dressed like that, but then I saw Teal'c wearing the same shirt. Don't get me wrong, they both looked great in them I just found them to be distracting. Perhaps TPTB believe they need to become a bit more sexy to attract new viewers. I've noticed this year especially, the promo shots have been showing much more skin and putting the guys into positions to show off their pecks and Amanda into positions to show off her breasts. For awhile I actually wondered if Amanda Tapping had augmentation done due to the fact that she never seemed to be so buxomy in previous seasons, but it appears they may just be having Carter wear clothing that's just much more enhancing.

Just my two cents

Skydiver
January 21st, 2005, 07:09 PM
Probably the biggest issue I did have with this episode had to be with the choice of clothing. When I first saw the sleeveless shirt I questioned whether a real Lt Colonel would be walking around dressed like that, but then I saw Teal'c wearing the same shirt. Don't get me wrong, they both looked great in them I just found them to be distracting. Perhaps TPTB believe they need to become a bit more sexy to attract new viewers. I've noticed this year especially, the promo shots have been showing much more skin and putting the guys into positions to show off their pecks and Amanda into positions to show off her breasts. For awhile I actually wondered if Amanda Tapping had augmentation done due to the fact that she never seemed to be so buxomy in previous seasons, but it appears they may just be having Carter wear clothing that's just much more enhancing.

Just my two cents

same here.
It's just odd
ok, they'll toss the regs out the window with what they wear, cause those t-shirts are NOT regulation....but they stick on other things like hair and frat regs?????

what? they can sex up the air force but have to play by the rules for everything else????

as to gemini
this episode was made to serve one purpose, to develop replicarter and set up a later episode. plain and simple

they had to accomplish two things, get knowledge about replicarter out there to the sgc, and disarm jack's super gun so that the reps would again be a threat

adn it served it in spades and we got the extra bonus of tons of sam, lots of sam/teal'c and an episode that actually fit in with the continuity we'll see next week in PU

IMForeman
January 21st, 2005, 07:10 PM
Say! I didn't notice on my copy, but when Siler is prepping the MALP, the puddle is a practical effect, done by rear-projection instead of a CG composite. Coolness. If I ever got a chance to visit the set, I'd hope that it would be a day when the practical puddle was in place. :D

-IMF

Osiris-RA
January 21st, 2005, 07:20 PM
Probably the biggest issue I did have with this episode had to be with the choice of clothing. When I first saw the sleeveless shirt I questioned whether a real Lt Colonel would be walking around dressed like that, but then I saw Teal'c wearing the same shirt. Don't get me wrong, they both looked great in them I just found them to be distracting. Perhaps TPTB believe they need to become a bit more sexy to attract new viewers. I've noticed this year especially, the promo shots have been showing much more skin and putting the guys into positions to show off their pecks and Amanda into positions to show off her breasts. For awhile I actually wondered if Amanda Tapping had augmentation done due to the fact that she never seemed to be so buxomy in previous seasons, but it appears they may just be having Carter wear clothing that's just much more enhancing.

Just my two cents

Yeah, the change of clothing did annoy me a bit. She didn't used to wear those revealing tank tops and sleeveless numbers. Neither did Teal'c that much either, now he's popping out of his shirts. If TPTB feel they have to sex up the show, something must be terriby wrong. I never watched the show because I wanted to see anybody's skin, I watched it because it was interesting.

I had the sinking feeling around S7 that AT was donning a push up bra, but that could just be my imagination. Fact is, you want to be "one of the guys" as she put it in Hathor, (or was that Fraiser? :rolleyes: ) you gotta mingle - that means a dress code. That's why I'll never understand why in real life, the Army or Air Force, One of 'em, is letting their women get free breast augmentations. :eek: Like they need them. This is war, woman!! Suck it in and get in line!! :S :D

Dana_Jeanne
January 21st, 2005, 07:21 PM
This is the secod time I've seen it, and I was really hoping that seeing it on TV rather than my computer would improve it. It didn't. I found it just as boring and silly as the first time. I'm really tired of what the writers have turned Carter into.

Dana Jeanne

UnderT
January 21st, 2005, 07:26 PM
I thought this episode was boring aswell, they need to start going after the Gould and kickin' some RRRs. :D

GatetheWay
January 21st, 2005, 07:30 PM
What was that bum excuse they had in the begining to have Daniel not be in the ep? Someone want to remind me? Thanks.

The excuse they used was that he was going to be on the Prometheus trying to reach Atlantis.

Skydiver
January 21st, 2005, 07:36 PM
What was that bum excuse they had in the begining to have Daniel not be in the ep? Someone want to remind me? Thanks.

they were obviously taping this and Promie unbound simultanously because there is zero sam or teal'c in that one. and hey, thor was in it, and last i knew, MS did thor's voice ;)

bravesmom63
January 21st, 2005, 07:46 PM
Maybe if they would have had poor Daniel who was obviously trapped in the elevator for the entire episode banging on the door trying to get out in the background. That might have added a little something. :p

:D I agree. I can see them using this ep to set up things to come, but I couldn't believe how DUMB Sam was to let RC have access to the base computers. Didn't they learn anything from Linea in 'Prisoners'?

Shipperahoy
January 21st, 2005, 07:47 PM
I'm watching it again in the hopes that there would be something this time to help explain Sam's gullibility but, alas, it's not meant to be. I'm still baffled, dumbfounded, and disapointed. I'm usually not so harsh in my judegements of episodes but I really hate what they've done with Sam in this one.

keshou
January 21st, 2005, 07:48 PM
as to gemini
this episode was made to serve one purpose, to develop replicarter and set up a later episode. plain and simple

they had to accomplish two things, get knowledge about replicarter out there to the sgc, and disarm jack's super gun so that the reps would again be a threat

adn it served it in spades and we got the extra bonus of tons of sam, lots of sam/teal'c and an episode that actually fit in with the continuity we'll see next week in PU
I agree that is was a setup to make RC the new big bad. They also managed to get Fifth out of the way. And I don't mind them trying to get the knowledge and being outwitted by RC. But they sure made it easy.

And Carter just didn't seem like Carter in this one. She seemed dazzled by her duplicate. The thing I disliked the most was Sam letting RC do the hand in the head thing.

But Amanda did do a nice job in the two roles. There was one scene I noticed this time around where both Carter rushed to either side of the monitor. Amanda managed to cock her head exactly the same way in both shots. And clearly she had fun throwing all the guys around. ;)

Well hopefully this will all have a big dramatic payoff down the road and make this all worth while.

DarkQuee1
January 21st, 2005, 08:16 PM
Even as uncaring and immoral Jack can appear at times (as with his decision to betray Fifth ),

I don't think what Jack did was either uncaring or immoral. Forgetting for a moment the fact that the ep showed that Jack was not happy about having to have made that decision, he did what he had to do at the time. In Gemini, Sam said I (and others) have been saying all along: Fifth had the emotional maturity of a teenager. And a teenager with the hots for Carter. And there was no way to insure that he would not have a hissy fit when he found out that Sam didn't want him--in fact, he *did* have one, in a way--and turn Replicators loose on Earth. Some fans keep saying that Fifth was acquiring "humanity". No he wasn't. Contained in the word "humanity" is the word "human". Fifth may have been sentient, but he was alien, and we have no idea how he really thought. What he was acquiring was emotions, and that just made him more of a timebomb.

Jack had a choice: leave Fifth, or risk a planet of 3 billion people. He made the only choice he really could make. It was a hard decision, but Jack makes hard decisions. What we haven't seen yet is that Sam can make those decisions.


Probably the biggest issue I did have with this episode had to be with the choice of clothing. When I first saw the sleeveless shirt I questioned whether a real Lt Colonel would be walking around dressed like that, but then I saw Teal'c wearing the same shirt. Don't get me wrong, they both looked great in them I just found them to be distracting. Perhaps TPTB believe they need to become a bit more sexy to attract new viewers. I've noticed this year especially, the promo shots have been showing much more skin and putting the guys into positions to show off their pecks and Amanda into positions to show off her breasts. For awhile I actually wondered if Amanda Tapping had augmentation done due to the fact that she never seemed to be so buxomy in previous seasons, but it appears they may just be having Carter wear clothing that's just much more enhancing.

Just my two cents


Here, we are in complete agreement. It's uncalled for. In Endgame, we have Sam going on an op in jeans, high-heeled boots and a leather jacket, while all of the men are in combat gear. And it's only going to get worse, judging from Prometheus Unbound and the fact that TPTB will be gearing to bring in Farscape fans. While Farscape could be witty, it could also be very juvenile in its humor, and sexual innuendos and double entendres were big on the show.


J.

IMForeman
January 21st, 2005, 08:26 PM
Jack had a choice: leave Fifth, or risk a planet of 3 billion people.


Just picking a nit here, but Earth's population is over 6 Billion.


Here, we are in complete agreement. It's uncalled for. In Endgame, we have Sam going on an op in jeans, high-heeled boots and a leather jacket, while all of the men are in combat gear. And it's only going to get worse, judging from Prometheus Unbound and the fact that TPTB will be gearing to bring in Farscape fans. While Farscape could be witty, it could also be very juvenile in its humor, and sexual innuendos and double entendres were big on the show.

Maybe it's just me, but I really haven't been noticing the outfits either way. I'm neither offended, nor titillated by Sam's recent attire. I just really haven't been paying attention to their clothes... I think it's because Stargate is still incredibly tame in comparison to just about everything else on TV today... or maybe it's just because I really have no problems or hang ups about skin... I dunno.

Oh, and Claudia's character has a perfectly valid story reason for wearing what she's wearing in the bits they show in the commercial.

-IMF

Hex.FTB.enabled
January 21st, 2005, 08:35 PM
Here's my 2cents:

I agree that it's not the fastest-paced episode ever, but I still liked it. I thought it was interesting to see Sam a little bit more vulnerable than normal, and being confronted with your double would throw anyone off. And I know she seemed really gullible, but the scene where Replicarter shared the simulation of killing SG-1 with Carter almost had an abused girlfriend energy to it. I think they were playing that angle (since Fifth basically mentally tortured Carter in New Order).

But regardless how much I did or didn't like certain points (yes, the tank tops seem ridiculous), Amanda Tapping did an amazing job. You didn't need the outfits to distinguish between them, they were completely separate characters.

ShardsofGlass
January 21st, 2005, 08:41 PM
I'm surprised people don't like the outfits. They didn't bother me in the least and were pretty conservative, imo.

Personally, I thought AT did a good job as the replicator. I liked the way she looked like she was sympathetic one minute and calculating the next. However, I thought she really underplayed Carter's emotions. Carter is facing this person who looks, acts, and thinks exactly like her. Exactly. Yet, she hardly showed any emotions of worry or of being scared or freaked out. SHe was always just breezily competent, as if facing another dull day at the office. Which didn't make sense, considering what she really was facing.

In some scenes she reminded me of Data from TNG, curious but emotionally detached.

Lexx
January 21st, 2005, 09:08 PM
I liked this episode well enough when I first saw it, but it's not one of those episodes that holds up for future viewing. There are some that I can watch over and over again because of the action scenes, acting, and overall interesting story. "Gemini" isn't one of these. I couldn't even pay attention to it when it aired tonight, and I've only seen it once. A month ago. Here's hoping "Prometheus Unbound" will be better.

kadosho
January 21st, 2005, 09:23 PM
This ep is the so-so one like many are saying.
But I think its main purpose is just to open a new story we'll follow later.
The only problem, its gonna run through some pitfalls, but in the end..
We'll know that the Replicator's are going to get even worse.
Just good Sam vs Evil Sam is gonna be kinda weird.

Hyperspace
January 21st, 2005, 09:24 PM
Letting a relicator of any sort, even one that looks like Carter, near the ONLY weapon that can destroy them, is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of!.

Exactly!!! I really felt "DUMBitis" was completely what happened and it was very out-of-character for Sam. Was she ever suspicious at all?

I felt that 1) Carter should NOT have been put in charge, there was a conflict of interest (or emotions); 2) the Alpha Site should NOT have been revealed to the Replicators.

I too saw the Terminator-like effects, and for a moment wondered if, like '2001', Repli-Carter could hear Teal'c and Sam talking about terminating her in the end.

But the whole 'I want to die, you have to kill me' thing was completely, absolutely unbelievable. I can't believe Carter was hoodwinked by that. Why not tell the Repli-Carter to jump into a black hole or self-destruct? I know, I know, Replicators have survived black holes. But I couldn't believe how easily SG-1 was duped.

It was still a fast-paced episode, thusly entertaining and making it easier to gloss over the problems. I enjoyed it, but I was incredulous at the ending.

When the first full segment of the ep aired, I immediately wondered if SG-1 had a backup plan, and a thought that it "was a ruse" -- I felt she was possibly working for Fifth, and I thought it was possible she manipulated her images to trick Sam in their 'mind meld,' plus I expected her to betray Fifth, and expected her to do something to betray SG-1.

In the end I was kinda disappointed that SG-1 didn't have a backup plan like even Captain Janeway did in Star Trek: Voyager's "Counterpoint" and "Scorpion" where in the end, the cast reveals to the 'new ally/defector' that they knew all along that s/he couldn't be trusted.

It was a good ep, but not a very plausible or in-character one especially for Sam...I guess they needed that to make the Replicators the uber-threat again.

IMO, also it would be more convincing if Repli-Carter altered her appearance; in essence shape-shifted in order to escape.

BTW, where on the Gateworld main page can you rate the ep? I remember doing that last year.

Not that there's a real comparison, but SG-Atlantis' team was MUCH SMARTER this week!

gwangung
January 21st, 2005, 09:38 PM
Yes. VERY disappointing.

Should have been a cat and mouse game between the two Carters, with RepliCarter winning because she's learned the lessons of betrayal better.

Darren
January 21st, 2005, 09:44 PM
You can rate the episode on the "Gemini" page:

http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s8/811.shtml

Erik Bloodaxe
January 21st, 2005, 10:05 PM
Umm.. Her emotions were the cause of the whole storyline.. and possible destruction of the galaxy.

Please, this is SG-1 we're talking about... the galaxy isn't going to get destroyed. :D

-Bloodaxe

Erik Bloodaxe
January 21st, 2005, 10:17 PM
same here.
It's just odd
ok, they'll toss the regs out the window with what they wear, cause those t-shirts are NOT regulation....but they stick on other things like hair and frat regs?????

what? they can sex up the air force but have to play by the rules for everything else????

Well, it does get its stamp of approval from the Air Force, so if they had a real problem w/ the wardrobe... ;) Besides, I don't even really notice anything odd w/ it myself; I can certainly name a great deal of other shows where the outfits are far more revealing than anything in Stargate: Andromeda, any given Star Trek (the catsuits that are odd to claim to be Federation-approved :D ), Point Pleasant (so far), Smallville, and so on. So, yeah, once again even if some notice oddities at times, SG-1 still remains above the majority of the other series out there, in this case in terms of having more realistic attire than the others (most of the time). :)

-Bloodaxe