PDA

View Full Version : Before I Sleep (115)



Pages : [1] 2

GateWorld
November 7th, 2004, 06:24 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s1/115.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/115.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#666666">DISCUSS ...</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4 COLOR="#0066BF"><B>BEFORE I SLEEP</B></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 115</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
A woman is found in suspended animation in Atlantis, and the team is shocked to see that it is Dr. Weir herself, who tells them of her trip 10,000 years into the city's past.

<B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s1/115.shtml">Visit the Episode Guide >></A></B></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Gothann
December 6th, 2004, 06:01 PM
Alright, so Before I Sleep was one of the better episodes in getting to know a tad more about the ancients, why there isn't a timeship in Atlantis, possibly why there is a timeship in SG-1's "Moebius" and other such tidbits.

Let's just say that SG:A breaks the linear rule of time travel this time around, going into the "multiverse" theory associated with the events of choice in each eventual universe.

Major Fischer
December 6th, 2004, 06:16 PM
So, speaking for those of us on bad connections that can't see this for a month or two... summery anyone?

:o :cool:

Gothann
December 6th, 2004, 06:51 PM
Sheppard goes out to Dr. Weir standing outside, while she asks why he's here and not exploring the city, he presents her with a pot the Athosians made and wishes her Happy Birthday. Sheppard then leaves to go explore.
Sheppard is now exploring the city with his team (minus McKay), with McKay being his usually pestering self on the radio. Ford stumbles upon a room with red dimed lights and alerts the Major, who then tells McKay to shut up and goes in. He then alerts Dr. Weir that she needs to see who they've discovered...
When Weir arrives, everyone debates on whether they should revive her, since the physiology of this presumed Ancient is comparable to a hundred year old human. McKay then explains that the stasis that the woman is in only slows down age to a near standstill, although that crawl DOES take it's toll over 10 THOUSAND years. Weir then takes a risk in ordering the revival of this woman, taking all responsibility.

Now, the woman has been taken out of the stasis cell, she slowly wakes up, opening her eyes, yet barely talking. A note is found in her sleeve with 5 gate adresses, most of which were already visited before. McKay wonders what they're for, but now the woman starts to speak, then falls asleep.

Beckett now contacts Weir and tells her that the woman was slipping in and out of consciousness, but it is urgent that Weir see this woman, she seems to know "things".
The woman is now awake and Dr. Weir greets her, along with McKay there. The woman now says how nice it is to see everyone again, that it's been so long... She then explains that she is Dr. Weir, then after a few more words explaining the beginnings of what happened, she falls asleep.

After a debate with Carson about if any stimulant would work to keep her awake a bit longer each time, Weir convinces him to administer the stimulant in order to talk to the old Dr. Weir. Once Old Weir awake, current Dr. Weir (this will get annoying) arrives with a wheelchair and offers a tour of the city's main control room and gate area. Then they go to the conference room and Old Weir starts explaining what happened "the first time". FLASHBACK: They found the city, with nearly drained power and failing shields. At this time, they start exploring, with all of the controls offline and unresponsive. They then learn that the city is starting to flood, and then Dr. Weir orders Colonel Sumner who is exploring to get back to the gate room. After an eerie sound, Sumner's radio transmits him and his exploration team screaming, only to be crushed by the sea... He dies there. Then, everyone else is stuck between air-tight bulkheads, but they're breached and quickly flooding, everyone outside the gate room and ship room are killed. Now McKay, Weir, Grodin, Zelenka, Beckett, Ford and Sheppard are known to still be alive. It's then that the gate room starts flooding, and McKay starts frantically looking for a way to get the jumper bay doors open. When he sees the water rise, he keeps trying. END FLASHBACK. McKay comments on how he tried helping until death... Overwhelmed with knowing what he would have done had the city not risen from the sea, he ponders it.... FLASHBACK: Sheppard, Weir and Zelenka are in a 6th PJ, which seems to have a device in the center. This device is unlike any other. The room starts to flood, Ford and Beckett drown. Sheppard, who sealed the doors in time, takes the controls, not knowing what he's doing. He hits one control and in a flash the PJ is in space. Only... They're being fired upon! END FLASHBACK. Old Weir faints...

Old Weir wakes up again, in order to continue her story. FLASHBACK: Sheppard tries to find a way to shoot back at whatever is shooting at them, he finds how to shoot once, then they PJ is hit twice before Dr. Weir blanks out. She wakes up beside Janus, who explains that Weir is the only one left alive, and that she's been healed of all wounds. She is then taken before the Ancient Council, where Janus and Weir are shunned from suggesting ANY type of way to control what happens 10 thousand years later. They both leave and later on talk to one of the counil members (Hologram Lady!! Forgot what Janus calls her, but she has a NAME!). She then reluctantly stands by her council-mates and says how she cannot help. It's then that Janus starts working behind the Council's back and creates failsafes. The 3 ZPMs are to be rotated instead of used in parallel, there is a failsafe that makes the city rise in the event the city's shield fails, there is a sensor-connection that wakes up Dr. Weir when her expedition goes through... And then word of the last thing keeping the Ancients in Atlantis arrives... A transport ship with 300 people on it is under attack. Janus tries to suggest boosting the shields with Auxiliary power, but there's no effect. The sensors detect that the ancient ship is overwhelmed by the Wraith and now the Ancients begin evacuation. Janus explains that someone MUST stay behind to rotate the ZPMs, so he instructs Dr. Weir in how to do it. It's then that Weir hides and watches Janus take his entire timeship research with him, hidden in his backpack, to Earth. (Eep! Reference to something familiar!!) Dr. Weir then spends 3.3 thousand years between rotations, only to come back to square one. END FINAL FLASHBACK.

Old Weir then asks Dr. Weir if McKay figued out what the note was... She then explains that the five adresses are outposts where ZPMs are located. Dr. Weir then wakes up McKay and tells him this, who freaks out and starts conversing along with her and Sheppard about it. At this time, Old Weir finally passes away...

Sheppard goes out to meet Dr. Weir, who has just finished scattering what seems to be the remains of her older self. Sheppard says he's going to the briefing, Weir says she'll be there now. She pauses, then asks Sheppard if she could have a minute before going...

END

Gothann
December 6th, 2004, 06:53 PM
Alright, now this episode has massive foreshadowing for SG-1, too.
In Moebius, they find a Puddle Jumper with time travel capabilities. Thing is, Janus modified a PJ in Atlantis, then the storyline of "Before I Sleep" happens, then Janus leaves WITH HIS RESEARCH!!! Let's just say that if this has nothing to do with Moebius, I'm going to be shocked.

Xerxus
December 6th, 2004, 06:56 PM
partial summary
.
.
Apparently the Atlantis expedition we see is the second time it has happened. The first time they went to Atlantis, the systems were failing due to a power failure. Weir got on a timeship and went back to the past Atlantis. The council at Atlantis found out about the illegal time experiments so they destroyed the "original" timeship. Weir got some help with an ancient so that there is a "failsafe" system that will allow atlantis to float in the second timeline. Weir also had to stay to rotate the ZPMs so that there will be enough power in the future. Ten thousand years later, she wakes in Atlantis to see the gang. Then she explained the story and also provided some gate addresses to possible ZPM places.

Sorry for the poor summary

Gothann
December 6th, 2004, 07:00 PM
Xerxus, you get some green for having condensed what I could not.

And did anyone catch the Hologram Lady's name this time around? It's said right after Janus says "I may know of someone who can help".

Major Fischer
December 6th, 2004, 07:01 PM
All I have to say is.

Wow. That's probably the most original take on time travel I've heard from a television show.

MartoufMarty
December 6th, 2004, 07:02 PM
I'm not giving a summary... But, I guess sort of.

People watched around, people talked, Sheppard, Ford, and a couple other people found the 10,000 year old Dr. Weir (who was in stasis). They woke her up, found out it was Elizabeth, she began to tell the story of what happened.

Turns out Rodney died heroicly in the other reality (where the power wasn't really on, the shield was crap, and the city didn't float). Well, actually, they all drowned (except for Weir, Sheppard, and Dr. Zelanka). Those three were in this special puddle jumper, pressed some buttons, ended up over the planet being attacked by Wraith ships.

Story goes on, they talk, and talk. Dr. Weir (back 10,000 years ago having accidently gone back in time) wakes up, and this Ancient guy (Janus who is my hero now) is there, they explain what happens. This Janus guy made the 'time ship', or to be more exactly was making it at the time.

They go before the Ancient counsil, this pissy guy says no to Weir's idea of 'send me back with a ZPM'. Janus (of course) helps her out, comes up with this plan, created the fail safe (that made the city rise when power ran out) and also the idea of switching between ZPMs every 3333.33 years so the power would last long enough for them to get there. All the Ancients left to Earth because the Wraith were kicking their asses.

Weir goes into stasis with the time thing to wake her up so she can change the ZPMs around.

Janus takes his time travel research with him, and I guess Janus makes another time ship on EARTH, thus explaining the whole Mobieus thing going on there.

During the story the Dr. Weir is dying. She's not in good shape. It cuts in every now and then, she passes out, has a stroke, yadda yadda, not gonna last the time.

And then after telling the story and telling them that this note she had with her (when she first was takin' out of the stasis thingy) had gate addresses that had known ZPMs on them, and then she died.

And then at the end this current time Dr. Weir tosses her ashes over the balcony.

It was funny after Rodney found out he died (trying to get power, he was in the control room when it all got flooded) and Sheppard found out that he died, Rodney was boasting on about how heroic he was. It was funny.

Oh, and another funny part I loved was when they first took Dr. Weir out of stasis. She wasn't reponding to them talking or anything so Rodney waves his hand in front of her face.

"Just what I thought. Freezer Burn."

... So I guess that was a summary :P

Damn. People beat me to it...

READ MY VERSION! IT'S BETTER! :P

Blueicus
December 6th, 2004, 07:03 PM
I personally liked the episode quite a bit...

Some stuff we learn about the war with the Wraith:

a) The Ancients tried to parley with the Wraith, sending a convoy of their most powerful warships, but were destroyed.

b) The Ancient transports held around 300 people each, but all were destroyed in an attempt to run the Wraith blockade (which explains why only 5 puddle jumpers and no larger ships remained in the Atlantean docking bays).

c) The Ancients were indeed outnumbered by the Wraith, and although their ships could win one-on-one, they were unable to defeat the Wraith's superior numbers (which seems to have been the consensus so far).

Weir development: Old Weir tells young Weir to take in every moment, maybe the beginning of a change in her attitude as leader?

Gothann
December 6th, 2004, 07:03 PM
Did I happen to mention how Shep/Weir shippers may LOVE this episode's beginning?

Sheppard going through all that trouble to find out her birthday... Must mean SOMETHING.

Gothann
December 6th, 2004, 07:05 PM
MartoufMarty, I spent over 45 minutes writing mine...

That's practically the time it took you to watch the show ^_^ :)

MartoufMarty
December 6th, 2004, 07:06 PM
Ha! Mine was better and didn't take so long! :P

... I missed the beginning (sorry everyone...) It's not my fault. My parents were watching Trading Spouses. It ended, they switched the channel, and it had started! *******s...

Gothann
December 6th, 2004, 07:07 PM
I personally liked the episode quite a bit...

Some stuff we learn about the war with the Wraith:

a) The Ancients tried to parley with the Wraith, sending a convoy of their most powerful warships, but were destroyed.

b) The Ancient transports held around 300 people each, but all were destroyed in an attempt to run the Wraith blockade (which explains why only 5 puddle jumpers and no larger ships remained in the Atlantean docking bays).

c) The Ancients were indeed outnumbered by the Wraith, and although their ships could win one-on-one, they were unable to defeat the Wraith's superior numbers (which seems to have been the consensus so far).

Weir development: Old Weir tells young Weir to take in every moment, maybe the beginning of a change in her attitude as leader?
We also learn that the Ancients may have left schematics for their Warships in the Ancient database, that the adress for Earth was intentionally erased, and that they have 5 outposts with ZPMs. --> The ZPMs are what leads to the "Brotherhood" episode, BTW.

Gothann
December 6th, 2004, 07:08 PM
Ha! Mine was better and didn't take so long! :P

... I missed the beginning (sorry everyone...) It's not my fault. My parents were watching Trading Spouses. It ended, they switched the channel, and it had started! *******s...
I kind of tried to keep true to the story's unfolding... That's what I've done with the other two summaries I've wrote in the past, although I DO like yours. (I'm going to be green-happy today to anyone who writes a decent summary)

h22chen
December 6th, 2004, 07:14 PM
Thank you to those who took their time to write the summaries. I appreciate the spoilers.

MartoufMarty
December 6th, 2004, 07:17 PM
I didn't really take much time. I probably accidently forgot about a couple things (bad memory I have). I typed it all while it was still fresh in my mind.

The last five minutes of the episode involved ZPMs, ATMs, and Starbucks in the Pegasus galaxy.

... Well, in OUR minds it did lol. We can't go one episode without making fun a bit. My parents were getting a little bored and started saying stuff like, "Just finish the story already!" or "Just die already!" :P

Gothann
December 6th, 2004, 07:20 PM
I watched it alone, took the time to tape it, AND started typing it.

Thing is, since my tape screwed up before the end, I don't have the Hologram Chick's name.

Ah, and one more bit of info: The Ancients don't call themselves the Ancients. They have a name for their race, but it's not mentionned in the episode.

MartoufMarty
December 6th, 2004, 07:23 PM
I watched it alone, took the time to tape it, AND started typing it.

Thing is, since my tape screwed up before the end, I don't have the Hologram Chick's name.

Ah, and one more bit of info: The Ancients don't call themselves the Ancients. They have a name for their race, but it's not mentionned in the episode.
I don't think that they actually said her name. Didn't they say her name in Rising? I don't remember lol.

Maybe they like the name the Ancients because it makes they sound much more powerful so they're not gonna tell us. They're probably 'The Bobsises' or something like that. The Ancients sound much more cooler... and older.

Gothann
December 6th, 2004, 07:28 PM
I don't think that they actually said her name. Didn't they say her name in Rising? I don't remember lol.

Maybe they like the name the Ancients because it makes they sound much more powerful so they're not gonna tell us. They're probably 'The Bobsises' or something like that. The Ancients sound much more cooler... and older.
I find "Atlanteans" a fitting name for them... Just suggesting...
Besides, after all that time on Atlantis (millions of years before they finally find the Wraith) shouldn't they have changed their name?

I mean, our own name seems to have changed somewhat, Homo Sapiens --> Homo Sapiens Sapiens --> Homo --> whatever name it's called in any Latin based language (Humain in french, Human in English, and so on)

Blueicus
December 6th, 2004, 07:36 PM
Actually, the scientific nomenclature of our kind (how we classify ourselves using Linnaeus's species naming system invented only a few centuries ago) is still Homo Sapiens/Homo Sapiens Sapiens (of course derived from Latin, since that was still the popular scientific language at the time)... the Romans probably would've simply used Homo or something like that, as they didn't use the formal Linnaean system of classifying species.

Gothann
December 6th, 2004, 07:43 PM
Although true... I guess we should get back on topic ^_^

As for the storyline, I was surprised to see that the time travel wasn't linear, like most time-travel in SG-1 was. To break the timeline like that would mean that Dr. Weir is going to die twice in one universe... Um...

Major Fischer
December 6th, 2004, 07:48 PM
Although true... I guess we should get back on topic ^_^

As for the storyline, I was surprised to see that the time travel wasn't linear, like most time-travel in SG-1 was. To break the timeline like that would mean that Dr. Weir is going to die twice in one universe... Um...

Time travel always has issues with paradox, and I'm willing to bet that McKay will have fun sticking it to Carter when they contact with earth. Given that it proves that her theories about time travel paradox were wrong in 1969.

Gothann
December 6th, 2004, 08:04 PM
Time travel always has issues with paradox, and I'm willing to bet that McKay will have fun sticking it to Carter when they contact with earth. Given that it proves that her theories about time travel paradox were wrong in 1969.
Yeah, but notice that in 2010, the note safeguarding SG-1 from the Aschen does break the linear timeline that happens in SG-1, making them return to that note in 2001...

aAnubiSs
December 6th, 2004, 08:25 PM
So the Atlanteans had powerful warships, transportvessels for 300+ and their planetary explorer-vessels, a.k.a. Puddle Jumper.

That's really cool. Hopefully we'll atleast get some information about them later on. Recorded video of engagements with the Wraith for example. Also design specs and blueprints :)

Erik Bloodaxe
December 6th, 2004, 11:21 PM
All I have to say is.

Wow. That's probably the most original take on time travel I've heard from a television show.

Is it? I don't know; Red Dwarf had some pretty unique ways for dealing w/ the concept. ;) ... Oh, alright, yeah, when it comes to American shows, you're absolutely right; Stargate's been the goto franchise for doing the absolute best job w/ various Sci-Fi concepts for close to 10 years now (just compare Stargate's black hole episode w/ Enterprise's black hole episode, and you'll see what I mean). :D


I mean, our own name seems to have changed somewhat, Homo Sapiens --> Homo Sapiens Sapiens --> Homo --> whatever name it's called in any Latin based language (Humain in french, Human in English, and so on)

Yeah, but the name of the Ancients as a species probably wouldn't be much different; as an empire they may not have changed it much, depending on where the name came from. After all, we've had a number of places that've greatly changed their name (Mesopotamia to the various countries of the Middle East), and those that haven't really (Isreal, Egypt, etc.). It all depends exactly on what happened during the Ancients' history. :) Technically, "they" (i.e. their descendents) don't call themselves the (whatever name was actually used in place of) "Ancients" anymore. ;)


Although true... I guess we should get back on topic ^_^

As for the storyline, I was surprised to see that the time travel wasn't linear, like most time-travel in SG-1 was. To break the timeline like that would mean that Dr. Weir is going to die twice in one universe... Um...

So? Time travel is never exclusively linear, nor is it truly paradoxical; at least not according to the current theories. ;) There's basically an infinite "web" of timelines (called the Quantum Multiverse), and time travel can involve either travel to one of them or looping about your own, depending on your actions (like, say, if you met yourself from the future, you'd still have the choice of whether or not to realize that timeline by travelling to the past at that point in the future); so stories in which SG-1 meets Hammond in the past and fulfill their timeline but later also change the timeline w/ a note are very much allowed according to current leading theories of quantum physics (The Fabric of Reality by David Deutsch explains this far better). :)


Janus takes his time travel research with him, and I guess Janus makes another time ship on EARTH, thus explaining the whole Mobieus thing going on there.

OK, this is why showing Atlantis w/o showing SG-1 concurrently doesn't work out well; I seem to recall Gateworld mentioning something about them finding such a ship in "It's Good to be King". In that case, it doesn't fully explain the Moebius situation, since the ship wasn't actually found on Earth, and I guess it'd make a bit more sense anyway that Janus would go into hiding on another world. :)

-Bloodaxe

fair_nymph
December 7th, 2004, 12:30 AM
A good episode (what can I say, I love them all), and informative about the ancients.But, I was disappointed that there wasn't any elaboration about the whole Shep 'sharing himself' with Chaya from the previous episode. They BETTER follow that up soon.

Others have done the summary bit quite well, I'll just nit-pick a little. :D


A note is found in her sleeve with 5 gate adresses, most of which were already visited before.
I'm pretty sure McKay only mentioned that ONE had been visited before. I definitely didn't get the impression that MOST had been visited before. And I presume that the one that had been visited was whatever that planet was from Childhood's End.

The Hologram Lady = Morris (sp?). (Funny, cause I didn't recognize her as such, but I did catch the name. )

The Ancients do have a name...don't they refer to themselves as Atlanteans? That's what I picked up at least from this episode.

Shipper Notes:

I did swoon a bit in that first scene with Weir and Shep on the balcony...definitely a shippy moment! Also, since he was the only one to acknowledge her birthday, it's even more significant. I do think they will be developing this ship very very gradually though, which is good.

I caught a few interesting looks between Teyla and McKay, and thinking back I think I've caught similar looks in previous episodes too. In particular I'm referring to those moments when McKay says something REALLY obnoxious, and then they cut/pan to Teyla giving him a 'tsk, tsk' look. Kinda makes me think she has private talks with him in which she tells him to 'behave'. :D

kodamawu
December 7th, 2004, 12:46 AM
A good episode (what can I say, I love them all), and informative about the ancients.But, I was disappointed that there wasn't any elaboration about the whole Shep 'sharing himself' with Chaya from the previous episode. They BETTER follow that up soon.

Others have done the summary bit quite well, I'll just nit-pick a little. :D


I'm pretty sure McKay only mentioned that ONE had been visited before. I definitely didn't get the impression that MOST had been visited before. And I presume that the one that had been visited was whatever that planet was from Childhood's End.

The Hologram Lady = Morris (sp?). (Funny, cause I didn't recognize her as such, but I did catch the name. )

The Ancients do have a name...don't they refer to themselves as Atlanteans? That's what I picked up at least from this episode.

Shipper Notes:

I did swoon a bit in that first scene with Weir and Shep on the balcony...definitely a shippy moment! Also, since he was the only one to acknowledge her birthday, it's even more significant. I do think they will be developing this ship very very gradually though, which is good.

I caught a few interesting looks between Teyla and McKay, and thinking back I think I've caught similar looks in previous episodes too. In particular I'm referring to those moments when McKay says something REALLY obnoxious, and then they cut/pan to Teyla giving him a 'tsk, tsk' look. Kinda makes me think she has private talks with him in which she tells him to 'behave'. :D
personally i think he was just being friendly since hes kinda like the 2nd in command of the base so he has to interact with weir a lot, i did kinda see it as maybe being a bit shippy, but after his hot zone fun with teyla, and his sanctuary with athar, i think he already has his hands full. and mckay and teyla, i just dont see that happening...ever... but thats just IMHO

soulblade64
December 7th, 2004, 12:48 AM
it's the first time an actual birthday has been referrenced on the show. granted, teal'c said his was in a while in one episode, but his birthday wasn't in that episode.

they didn't even happen to mention her name, because people reckon she's pushing 50, but i reckon she's only about 35

fair_nymph
December 7th, 2004, 12:52 AM
I don't really think there is much romantically between McKay and Teyla, but I do think there might be more to their relationship than meets the unobservant eye.

I don't think Shep and Teyla have anything going on (I didn't in Hot Zone either...at least not on Shep's end), and I don't see why Athar/Chaya rules out a home-based Weir ship.

But when it comes to Shep, I will readily admit I am not fully in command of my logical faculties. :D

9-Chevron
December 7th, 2004, 01:03 AM
just a couple words
you are still thinking young weir and her crew are living their own time line , that is not true , they are living OLD WEIR's time line , why you ask? is because OLD WEIR never came back.

Jarnin
December 7th, 2004, 01:09 AM
The ancient hologram chick's name is Morose. She reminded me of the Nox chick Lya.

kodamawu
December 7th, 2004, 02:31 AM
just a couple words
you are still thinking young weir and her crew are living their own time line , that is not true , they are living OLD WEIR's time line , why you ask? is because OLD WEIR never came back.
lets not get started on the whole "which timeline" thing, with time travel, you could argue to the ends of the earth and not reach a solid conclusion.

astronomicalchick
December 7th, 2004, 03:00 AM
I kind of tried to keep true to the story's unfolding... That's what I've done with the other two summaries I've wrote in the past, although I DO like yours. (I'm going to be green-happy today to anyone who writes a decent summary)

To Gothann and Marty

Thank you so much for your excellent summaries, both of you!!!

Wass
December 7th, 2004, 03:04 AM
Well like I said in other posts I knew this episode won't reveal everything but at least we have learnt something about the ancients.

AsgardCarnage
December 7th, 2004, 03:51 AM
great ep, one of my favs for sure. at least now we know they had war ships. we learn abit about the "atlantians" but we hear nothing of their asention. i guess they asended many years later in the milkyway and then athar went back to her people to protect them.

they call them selfs "atlantians" they said it in this ep

the banter between shep and mckey was great all the "haha you died first" stuff was heaps funny. also i think its funny there is along line of people who are happy to defy the atlantian and asended ancient councils

a few things that seemed out of place to me, no one seemed that panic'd that they were under attack or fleeing their home. and why was the passanger ship trying to break through a seige that had been going on for years why not use the stargate to get back to atlantis from where ever they were? also no word about the orbital platform, it must have been destroyed a while ago. also it sucked we didn't get to hear what the atlantians call the ZPM's.

but still a great ep i liked i would prob place it 3rd (after rising pt1/2 and defiant one)

edit: also we found out they can simply block address's from dialing in, johnus said "i have blocked all address's besides earth from coming in so u will be safe" i wonder if that is a unique feature to atlantis or if its posible to do with any gate if u program the DHD right, like the 8th shevron.

Wass
December 7th, 2004, 04:10 AM
Did they mention anything about 9th chevron

AsgardCarnage
December 7th, 2004, 04:30 AM
nope no 9th chevron talk :(

Wass
December 7th, 2004, 05:47 AM
Oh well there are some mysteries that will remain for sometime to come.

Gothann
December 7th, 2004, 05:56 AM
Oh well there are some mysteries that will remain for sometime to come.
If you're wondering, the 9th chevron has nothing to do with time travel. There's a quantum generator inside the PJ aiding it's travel through time.

Gothann
December 7th, 2004, 05:59 AM
I'm pretty sure McKay only mentioned that ONE had been visited before. I definitely didn't get the impression that MOST had been visited before. And I presume that the one that had been visited was whatever that planet was from Childhood's End.

The Ancients do have a name...don't they refer to themselves as Atlanteans? That's what I picked up at least from this episode.

Firstly, on the note McKay looks at it and there are 5 gate adresses, he mentions that one is MX..something, and that it's been visited before, yet he's still reading the note with adresses when they switch the camera view to Old Dr. Weir.

As for the Ancients, they don't refer to themselves as Atlanteans, they don't even refer to themselves at all.

Wass
December 7th, 2004, 06:11 AM
If you're wondering, the 9th chevron has nothing to do with time travel. There's a quantum generator inside the PJ aiding it's travel through time.

Good I hope that puts the argument to rest the 9th chevron has nothing to do with time travel.

OfF3nSiV3
December 7th, 2004, 06:14 AM
edit: also we found out they can simply block address's from dialing in, johnus said "i have blocked all address's besides earth from coming in so u will be safe" i wonder if that is a unique feature to atlantis or if its posible to do with any gate if u program the DHD right, like the 8th shevron.

i don't understand..how can weir's team travel trough new worlds and then come back if only earth can dial atlantis?

Wass
December 7th, 2004, 06:31 AM
Yeah me thinking the same thing I think they blocked the addresses where they suspect wraith are based.

Major Fischer
December 7th, 2004, 06:33 AM
Maybe he set it to unblock itself after earth dialed in. Or maybe the monkey people poking around at the advanced technology broke the brilliant superior Ancient's blocking program. ;)

OfF3nSiV3
December 7th, 2004, 06:40 AM
well, in rising they sent a PJ to rescue the kidnapped by the wraith, where the planet had a hive ship, and returned back to atlantis, so atlantis gate was not blocked

Wass
December 7th, 2004, 07:08 AM
It seems that the alliance of 4 races was born once the Ancient went back to earth after leaving Atlantis. Then there is the question of the plague that killed a lot of them was that before the war with wraith or after it when they went back MW.

Any ideas people.

9-Chevron
December 7th, 2004, 07:37 AM
lets not get started on the whole "which timeline" thing, with time travel, you could argue to the ends of the earth and not reach a solid conclusion.


it is simple you have to remember that for old weir was her present all the time even when she was in past it was her present time what she lived and by staying in the past and no coming back she also fixed the future.

think what if she was able to come back to her real time none of the last 14 episodes ever happend

Gothann
December 7th, 2004, 07:38 AM
Maybe he set it to unblock itself after earth dialed in. Or maybe the monkey people poking around at the advanced technology broke the brilliant superior Ancient's blocking program. ;)
All but Earth can dial in, but Janus must have set it to unlock the adresses from incoming wormholes upon the arrival of the Atlantis Expedition.

tfalls1
December 7th, 2004, 07:42 AM
Is it just me or do the Ancients seem a whole lot likd the Tokra? The PTB did not make them out much more advanced then most other races we have seen and that seems unusual since they were so advanced millions of years previous to already have Atlantis with shields etc (as seen on Earth in Rising) and not to have developed way beyond Atlantis in millions of years??? And one last nitpick... were those LL Bean Backsacks the Ancients carried back to Earth as they evacuated?? AHHHH

Blend
December 7th, 2004, 07:43 AM
Note: I have the ep on my computer so if there is anything people need double checked i can do it for you.

I thought the ep was very informative and Proved and Disproved alot of theories.

*It showed the powerful enemy was infact the wraith and not (like some people suggested) some other race who had the wraith as slaves, or another race in hiding.

*It proved the reason the wraith were able to defeat the atlantians was infact numbers not technology (as many people already believed)

*They sunk the city long before they left

there were more i noted before but i forgot them now lol

and i really wish everyone would stop fussing over this "shipping". I never care about it, ever. I didnt see him giving her a gift in anyway as romantic, it looked more like good friends.

Gothann
December 7th, 2004, 07:53 AM
tfalls1, although their clothes resemble in certain ways those of the Tokra, it's the Tokra that copied from them, not the other way around.
As for the "advanced technology" that you seem to not see, I must remind you that Atlantis was already under siege by the Wraith, they have comparable technology and with massive numbers they could easily have overwhelmed any shielding aside the main shield of Atlantis.

Blend, the Wraith background story had nothing to do with the siege, so that still doesn't rule out that the Wraith were uprising subordinates or something else rather than a massive hunger-driven race.
The Wraith ARE of equal strength to the Atlantians, their Darts may not have enough firepower to take on a PJ while it's shielded, but a fleet of Darts can overwhelm any resistance. The only offset they have from the Atlantians that we know of is their large warships (probably versus the Hive Ships, or larger, stronger stuff) are weaker one on one against an Ancient Warship.

And don't rob anyone of their shipping presumtions, they're always fun, not to mention Sheppard IS already growing into that "good friend" spot now ^_^

Wass
December 7th, 2004, 07:55 AM
I'm not into "ship" either it is not the reason I watch the show but you must let those fans who are into that stuff speak there mine personally I think the relationship between weir and shapperd is one f mutual respect and friendship.

Teal'c
December 7th, 2004, 09:27 AM
It seems that the alliance of 4 races was born once the Ancient went back to earth after leaving Atlantis. Then there is the question of the plague that killed a lot of them was that before the war with wraith or after it when they went back MW.

Any ideas people.

I'd have to say the plague was before they returned, because they tried to use time travel to save themselves, but it didn't work. Yet Janus was able to perfect time travel.

Plus, there could have been a bad screwup with the WoO machine that would explain the Ancient council's opposition to time travel.

keppiezbt
December 7th, 2004, 09:55 AM
im going to watch this tonight but from the looks of it it seems good.

we appear to learn a lot...but it makes u wonder. if the ancients werent asended by this time, it means the plague happened when they came back to the milky way..maybe they brought something back?

also, it means that they didnt blend in right away into humanity, they must have still be the dominant race up until at least 5-6 thousands years ago.


so theorys are right though:" ancients lost not b/c the wraith had better technology just because their were more of them.

cool episode that leads us to much more...

Lexx
December 7th, 2004, 10:00 AM
I basically agree with Teal'c's idea. I'm betting the Milky Way Ancients died off from the plague after having tried several different ways to stop it (including the "Window of Opportunity" time machine). Sometime after the failed experiment a group of un-infected Ancients left in Atlantis, and started to look down on time travel because of the failure before. Either the remaining Ancients in Milky Way started the All Mighty Alliance in their waning years, or the Atlantians started it when they returned from Pegasus, for whatever time they had before their relatively miniscule population died out.

Wass
December 7th, 2004, 10:08 AM
But wouldn't the un-infected ancients help there own dying people rather then run away.

GuardianKentel
December 7th, 2004, 10:14 AM
But that makes you wonder about the Time Loop Device in "Window Of Opportunity" if it was created by Janus. ok but if the Ancients where on earth when Ra got here ... I mean the Cover stone from the Giza gate was what 10 to 15 thousand years ago. So that mean either Ra had come and gone by the time the ancients returned or he got their right after the ancients returned.

dolmata
December 7th, 2004, 10:24 AM
Now back to the actual name of the Ancients. Didn't the Wraith from "The Defiant One" call them something different? It was close to Ancient, but different enough to maybe be their original name. Also, do the Ancients speak English? Since Weir could speak with the Ancients without translation.

saxamoophone
December 7th, 2004, 10:34 AM
Good episode, although, could have used a bit more content. You could pretty much figure it all out in about the first 10 minutes.

Although when they first showed clips from "The Rising - Part I" i was like 'oh no, not a flashback!" but it was kinda cool when they started to break from the Rising and switch things up. The scene where Weir John and Rodney are in the Control Room is fun to compare. They do the exact same things, but yet it's just a little bit different.

astronomicalchick
December 7th, 2004, 11:36 AM
Time travel always has issues with paradox, and I'm willing to bet that McKay will have fun sticking it to Carter when they contact with earth. Given that it proves that her theories about time travel paradox were wrong in 1969.
I dunno, isn't it a ship that jumps time and universes?

Hatcheter
December 7th, 2004, 12:13 PM
I just finished watching 'Before I Sleep'. I gotta admit, I didn't have real high hopes for this episode, based on the spoiler info I had read. While it sounded like there would be some interesting stuff to be learned, I didn't think it would be an 'exciting' episode.

But what spoilers can't say is how well paced a story is, or how much tension there will be. I was on the edge of my seat once the older Wier began telling her version of events. The alternate version where everthing goes straight to hell when they arrive was great. And breaking the story up by having the old Weir fall asleep was perfectly used to up the tension further.

(It also helped that I watched watched 'Rising' last night, and caught the differences as soon as they started. I wonder if they shot that stuff at about the same time they shot 'Rising", or much later in the shooting schedule.)

Add the little shippy moment, good character development, plenty of great banter between Sheppard and McKay, and the set up for future episodes of Atlantis and SG-1, and I think this qualifies as another great episode.

Seriously, since the midseason break, they've hit it out of the park on every episode. And with the possible exception of that impending clips show (though SG-1 got pretty good at those, even), it looks like it's going to continue.

Lexx
December 7th, 2004, 01:05 PM
But wouldn't the un-infected ancients help there own dying people rather then run away.
It was probably clear that there was no cure by then. All the Milky Way Ancients either died from the Plague or ascended. Like Daniel said in "Rising", maybe they just wanted to start over.

ok but if the Ancients where on earth when Ra got here ... I mean the Cover stone from the Giza gate was what 10 to 15 thousand years ago. So that mean either Ra had come and gone by the time the ancients returned or he got their right after the ancients returned.
In Stargate the movie, it's said that the cover stone was 10,000 years old. So either:
A) The Atlantians got there right before it was sealed. They might've even been responsible for instigating the rebellion against the Goa'uld.
or
B) The Antarctic gate was exposed from the ice at that particular time period and they popped out there.

10,000 years ago was when the Goa'uld occupation of Earth ended, not when Ra first discovered the planet.

Wass
December 7th, 2004, 01:17 PM
IMO the timelines are really screwed up now every thing seems to be clashing with each other.

Hatcheter
December 7th, 2004, 01:28 PM
IMO the timelines are really screwed up now every thing seems to be clashing with each other.

I'm pretty sure TPTB have everything sorted out. They're just going to spoon-feed it too us over then next few years.

Wass
December 7th, 2004, 01:35 PM
I'm pretty sure TPTB have everything sorted out. They're just going to spoon-feed it too us over then next few years.

Well I hope so because so far every thing we learn in SGA is conflicting with what we learnt in SG-1.

Ancient-Jaron
December 7th, 2004, 01:47 PM
Good episode. I went in expecting a lot, and came out feeling pretty good about it. I wish there had been more Ancients / Atlanteans interaction, but the story went well w/o it.

As for ships, I think that opening scene was a friendship thing. Thats how I interpretted it, in any case. And I don't know where the McKay / Teyla "ship" comes from, I haven't seen that in the Atlantis I've been watching...

UnknownJ
December 7th, 2004, 02:00 PM
With regard to the name the Ancients give themselves, on more than one occasion they've been referred to as "Lanteans", including by Old Dr Weir when she's talking about the council (which suggests she's calling it the same thing that they're calling it).

Bear in mind the city would have been named while it still sat on Earth, and the pronounciation of the Earth point-of-origin symbol is "At" - it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that they're called Lanteans, and that the name "Atlantis" is derived from a combination of the point of origin, and the name of their civilisation.

AsgardCarnage
December 7th, 2004, 02:19 PM
i don't understand..how can weir's team travel trough new worlds and then come back if only earth can dial atlantis?

janus said he programed the fail safe in, and for the stasis tube to revive weir when her team arives so i guess he also programmed the city to unblock the gate



As for the Ancients, they don't refer to themselves as Atlanteans, they don't even refer to themselves at all.

your right the ancients never refer to them selfs as atlantians, only our kind. but old weir while telling her story calls them atlantians, she must have learned that term from somewhere? also the wraith in "the defiant one" calls them atlantians so i would think it is safe to asume that was their name. but i think that refers to something like their country not species. like i'm australian they are atlantian.

UnknownJ
December 7th, 2004, 02:23 PM
janus said he programed the fail safe in, and for the stasis tube to revive weir when her team arives so i guess he also programmed the city to unblock the gate

I'd guess he might just be referring to the force field - if anybody tried to gate in, the forcefield would come online unless it was a connection from Earth.. As soon as the expedition took manual control of the forcefield, that feature stopped being an issue...

Ancient-Jaron
December 7th, 2004, 02:53 PM
I'd like the gate address blocking method more, opposed to raising the forcefield. I think Janus would have chosen the option that required the least amount of energy, given what he was trying to accomplish. That is, of course, assuming the gates can put other gates on a "do not disturb" list.

I also was interested to know that the Ancients had warships. We don't know anything about them (sadly), but it finally fills in a gap we all knew was there, and assumed something existed; now we know for sure.

UnknownJ
December 7th, 2004, 03:01 PM
My only issue with specifically blocking incoming connections from certain gates is that there is (as yet) no basis for it in SG1..

Now obviously the Ancients know a little bit more about gate technology than Carter, but still, if there was some signal that goes through the gate/DHD on activation that can identify who is dialing in (not to mention a mechanism to prevent an incoming wormhole), I would have expected the SGC to at least have a go at using that functionality.. Not least of all as a way of preventing attacks like the one that Sokar launched in the episode whose name escapes me right now, but you know which one I mean I'm sure.. A particular planet giving you hassle? Just blacklist it, simple..

Then again (and here I destroy my own argument), it's plausible just because when the ancients built the gate network I'd imagine a way of refusing incoming wormholes would be quite an important feature. Unless that overconfidence of theirs got the better of them...

Ugly Pig
December 7th, 2004, 03:28 PM
Man. What I really want to do now is read everyone else's reaction, but that would violate my promise to myself to write my opinion on every episode this season before reading anything else about it after it has aired. Oh well.


PIGGY'S USELESS OPINION
of 'Before I Sleep'

What a frickin' awesome episode! Sort of a mix between 'There But For The Grace of God' (alternate reality in which the entire main cast is killed off, but a note with vital information makes it into "our" reality) and '2010' ("our" reality is created because our heroes successfully change the past). I knew this episode involved time travel, but I had no idea alternate universes were also involved.

So: When the team originally came to Atlantis, there was no fail safe making it float to the surface when the shield ran out of power, also; there was very little power for the shield left. Dr. Weir travelled to the past and met the Ancients, and made some changes to Atlantis history so that there was a fail safe, and more power to the shield. Therefore, when the expedition arrives ten thousand years later, they're a-okay. (Oh, and because of this, Weir never travels back to the past. Paradox? Nah, alternate reality. I can buy that.) I think I got that right.

One problem, though: Obviously, in "our" reality, ever since Weir was born there has been two Weirs. One on Earth (and later in Atlantis) and one that was on Atlantis all along, in a stasis chamber. And yet, this never caused a "temporal entropic cascade failure on the cellular level" like when there were two Carters in 'Point of View'. (Of course, that may not have made sense in the first place, but it is Stargate canon.) Maybe temporal entropic cascade failure is a problem that only occurs when someone is travelling between existing realities (through the Quantum Mirror), and not when a new reality is created as a result of tampering with time? That's the story I'm gonna stick with, in any case. I can buy that. :D

Let's have some Random observations!
- The Ancients eventually mastered time travel (obviously some time after the events of 'Window of Opportunity') but appearantly won't allow it being used.
- Fun references to 'Back to the Future'. Also fun was McKay's reaction to (and discussion with Sheppard about) his fate in the alternate reality.
- The Wraith siege of Atlantis continued after the city had been submerged in the ocean, while the fighting was taking place in space. My guess is the Wraith just picked up and left when the Ancients evacuated, no longer picking up any life signs.
- Was the Ancient woman on the council the woman from the hologram in 'Rising'?
- Was this the least amount of screen time in an episode for Sheppard? Good episode for Weir, though. And I must say, I think Torri Higginson did a great job.
- So, gate addresses to five planets with ZPMs on them, eh? I guess contact with Earth isn't far off now.

I'm sure there will be much nitpicking and complaining about continuity issues or flawed logic or whatever problems regarding the time travel/alternate reality that may be found (and if there are none, there are sure to be people misunderstanding everything and there'll still be nitpicking and complaining) but what it comes down to, for me, is that this is the most fun Atlantis episode in a while. And for that, it will get a big fat


http://photobucket.com/albums/v413/uglypig/thumbsup.gif

AtlantisRising
December 7th, 2004, 03:52 PM
There is nothing i can really add to this summary wise, however, i too, like most of you, found the episode quite enjoyable! Yes yes that IS an undertatement! *lol*

Knowing that Dr. Mckay risked his life to save Wier, Sheppard and Zelenka really hit me. I mean, it may have been an alternate version of him, however, it does show that he is capable of growing emotionally as a character, and making every moment count, if he puts his mind to it.

Weir, both of them, did an excecllent job. And ironically I too noticed the different "rising" sequence. Pathetically i was kinda "OMG THATS DIFFERENT!" *lol*

I felt really bad though when everyone slowly died. It turned my stomach.

All in all, i hope the epiosdes to come are just as great as most of Atlantis has been.

Aadizookaan
December 7th, 2004, 03:54 PM
Go Piggy, Go, Express your baaaad self.

Any way, to end the useless debate on the Name of the Hologram Lady - Melia, her name is said quickly by Janus after the Council meeting.

To end speculation on what the Ancients call themselves - Atlantian - this is evidenced by the term ATLANTIAN COUNCIL, and Wier's conversation with Janus and Melia, "We call you the Ancients".

Further, to end fighting over the StarGate being locked out of incoming wormholes - New Galaxy, New Gate System, New Rules - there is no DHD on Atlantis only a control module, a smaller one is on every puddle jumper too.

Ugly Pig
December 7th, 2004, 04:00 PM
For all we know, there may always have been a built in "identify incoming wormholes" feature in the stargate network that the SGC just never discovered.

UnknownJ
December 7th, 2004, 04:22 PM
Any way, to end the useless debate on the Name of the Hologram Lady - Melia, her name is said quickly by Janus after the Council meeting.

I'm still hearing her name as "Moros", or something along those lines....

Edit: Okay, I take that back, that seems to be the name of the guy on the council..



To end speculation on what the Ancients call themselves - Atlantian - this is evidenced by the term ATLANTIAN COUNCIL, and Wier's conversation with Janus and Melia, "We call you the Ancients".

They talked about the "Atlantean council", but refer to "Lantean ships", suggesting (at least to me) that the prefix "At-" refers to that city in particular (taking its name from the point of origin of Earth), and that 'Lantean' is the correct name for the race itself. That's also consistent with what the Wraith called them in The Defiant One..

Animaniac
December 7th, 2004, 05:00 PM
A few issues I had were...

1) The Atlanteans had superior medical technology yet some characters were depicted as aging. Hasn't it been explained that they didn't really age and had perfect health? Don't they have innate healing powers as well? I don't think that's just the case for ascended Ancients. They also thought in terms of human lifetimes ("It's impossible to predict what would happen in such a long period of time").

2) They only left 10,000 years ago?!?! Didn't the Milky Way Ancients suffer a plague and ascend far earlier than that, i.e. millions of years ago? The Antarctic gate was dated to be 50 million years old... Didn't the Goa'uld rise to power well before this supposed 10,000 year old return? Every time they threw around that number it made me cringe...

3) When they mentioned that humans were the "second evolution", it just seemed really awkward and out of place, especially since when Janus mentions, it sounds almost as if he has the same understanding of it as McKay or another current character has...

4) Although this is to be expected, they didn't even touch on the language difference. Weir has been shown to understand Latin, so they could have had a short segment about her overcoming the language barrier.

5) Why are they dressed like the Tok'Ra?

The portrayal of the Ancients in this episode just seemed really inconsistent with SG-1 and even with episode 14. Inconsitencies aside, the episode was really enjoyable. I guess I've been spoiled by SG-1 to expect a consistent timeline.

Gothann
December 7th, 2004, 05:37 PM
A few issues I had were...

1) The Atlanteans had superior medical technology yet some characters were depicted as aging. Hasn't it been explained that they didn't really age and had perfect health? Don't they have innate healing powers as well? I don't think that's just the case for ascended Ancients. They also thought in terms of human lifetimes ("It's impossible to predict what would happen in such a long period of time").

2) They only left 10,000 years ago?!?! Didn't the Milky Way Ancients suffer a plague and ascend far earlier than that, i.e. millions of years ago? The Antarctic gate was dated to be 50 million years old... Didn't the Goa'uld rise to power well before this supposed 10,000 year old return? Every time they threw around that number it made me cringe...

3) When they mentioned that humans were the "second evolution", it just seemed really awkward and out of place, especially since when Janus mentions, it sounds almost as if he has the same understanding of it as McKay or another current character has...

4) Although this is to be expected, they didn't even touch on the language difference. Weir has been shown to understand Latin, so they could have had a short segment about her overcoming the language barrier.

5) Why are they dressed like the Tok'Ra?

The portrayal of the Ancients in this episode just seemed really inconsistent with SG-1 and even with episode 14. Inconsitencies aside, the episode was really enjoyable. I guess I've been spoiled by SG-1 to expect a consistent timeline.Yay! More fun for me.

1- Ancients (Atlanteans, to be exact) aren't unaging. The oldest looking council member, although looking like he's about 50 in a current human lifespan, could be hundreds of years old. When Janus says "It's unpredictable what can happen in that much time" he's referring to a ZPM being drained before it's time, trapping and killing Weir, or the city being gated to from Earth BEFORE Atlantis Expedition (unlikely).

2- There is no official canon depiction of when the plague happened. Even TPTB hasn't mentioned when it happens.

3- Actually, that theory was first made by Dr. Janet Fraiser, when they find Aiyana in Antarctica. She implies that the Ancients must be the first evolution of a Human-like race, making us NOT the first. She bases that on theories that she read about, too. Thing is, that's what most likely happened.

4- Ancients must have a Universal Translator system. Simple as that.

5- If you notice, the Tok'Ra have dark brown pads on some of their suits. That aside, the Ancients in Atlantis must have used those clothes when in the city, where they don't need gear-filled armor or clothes. Timeline-wise, chances are the Tok'Ra are the ones who copied off of the Ancients. TPTB criticism-wise... Well, they may be low on budget for this season now...

Mio
December 7th, 2004, 06:01 PM
Well. This was an excellent episode. It shows a number of trivial little details about the Ancients, for example:

The have two forms of stasis. Aiyana long-term-full completely frozen stasis, and the kind used in this episode.
They store data on really neat looking purple things akin to Star Trek Isolinear chips.
The recorded message was recorded by a member of the counsil
THEY HAD WAR SHIPS! <sigh> I doubt we'll ever see one, though.


Anyway, I liked this episode. It gave us a very nice look into the past of Atlantis, and proved that the Wraith couldn't take on the Ancients with equal numbers. If you watched the display screen, it took a HUGE swarm of what I can only assume were Hive Ships, since if they were darts, there would have been thousands of them, to take out a single Ancient ship.

Gothann
December 7th, 2004, 06:05 PM
No, those were Darts. The transport ship blip was much larger than the other blips for the Wraith ships.

Besides, Darts can take out a PJ in.. what... 5 hits without a shield. With the shield, that many darts would drain it in less than a few seconds, only to vaporise the PJ during their last wave of fire.

Stargate Agent
December 7th, 2004, 06:05 PM
Another Excellent episode for Atlantis Season One :D . I have to agree with some of the previous viewers, every episode since the mid season break has been great. None of them have been a bore.

I loved the Back to the Future jokes :D as well as character development, it is going very good. I am really starting to feel close to the characters, something that takes over a couple years on a show to happen.

I am always worried about time travel episodes because A LOT of bad things can happen but this episode was executed very well. This episode reminds me a lot of a early Star Trek The Next Generation episode titled "Time Squared," where Captain Picard meets an alternate version of himself that has travelled back in time.

:S I do have one nagging question about this episode though, EVERYONE should comtemplate this. Refer back to SG-1 episode "Point of View" when two Major Carters were in the same reality what about this episode?? Technically two Elizabeth Weir's were in the same reality and neither of them experienced that quantum flux thing that affected both Carters...

Anyway the writers can't remember everything all the time. This was still a GREAT episode and another blue ribbon for Stargate Atlantis Season One.

:eek: :)

Mio
December 7th, 2004, 06:07 PM
I do have one nagging question about this episode though, EVERYONE should comtemplate this. Refer back to SG-1 episode "Point of View" when two Major Carters were in the same reality what about this episode?? Technically two Elizabeth Weir's were in the same reality and neither of them experienced that quantum flux thing that affected both Carters...
That was travel between different universes in the multiverse (McKay referenced the multiverse in this ep, but I don't think it really applied as much as it does to the Quantum Mirror.) This was time travel.


All but Earth can dial in, but Janus must have set it to unlock the adresses from incoming wormholes upon the arrival of the Atlantis Expedition. Yes. It would have been very stupid of him to make it more than a one time block.

However, It's good to know that the Atlantis Stargate has Caller-ID.

Brassguy
December 7th, 2004, 06:14 PM
interesting twist on the time travel.


they dont use one continuous time lloop - they use the whole "there are an infinite number of universes, one for every choice you could ever have made"

By usual time stuff:

If Weir by going back in time got to implement the failsafe, etc, and the time ship was gone, when the expedition came through Atlantis would not flood but rise. And there would be no timeship in the docking bay.

Weir would never go back in time and the implementing of the failsafe, etc would never have happened. And if none of it happened, they would drown,etc. So Weir would go back in time again.

It would continue as a loop.

UnknownJ
December 7th, 2004, 06:25 PM
If Weir by going back in time got to implement the failsafe, etc, and the time ship was gone, when the expedition came through Atlantis would not flood but rise. And there would be no timeship in the docking bay.

Weir would never go back in time and the implementing of the failsafe, etc would never have happened. And if none of it happened, they would drown,etc. So Weir would go back in time again.

It would continue as a loop.

SG1 Season 8 finale type spoilers:

This episode would actually work quite well with the title "Moebius", since that's kind of how I see it. On a moebius strip, a line drawn down the centre will go once around one side, once around the other side, and back to where it starts - effectively covering two identical journeys on opposite sides of the strip.

So Dr Weir's actions create two realities - one where there were no failsafes, and one where there are. Each reality is dependent on the existence of the other. In our reality there was no timeship, which means nobody could go back to get the Ancients to build in failsafes, which created the catastrophe in the alternative timeline. Then in that timeline, there was a timeship, so they went back in time, got the failsafes put in, which created the nice happy outcome in our timeline.

Basically, each timeline creates (and maintains) the other. It deals with the Grandfather Paradox by constructing two universes, and making time travel possible provided it isn't within the same universe.

Wow, I'm making a weird type of sense here, which may not be sense at all. I guess my point is that from what I've seen of the brief plot outline of the SG1 finale, it looks like that's using a similar model of time travel too - two "presents" each one creating the other one.

Gothann
December 7th, 2004, 06:31 PM
In contrary to "Point of View", as Stargate Agent described it, there are two Dr. Weir's in the same universe. The thing is, the one we're watching is from her own timeline, created after the events her own timeline where the AE was massacred. In essence, by going back in time to change something, she became part of that universe where two Dr. Weir people can exist from that choice made.

Easter Lily
December 7th, 2004, 07:39 PM
Good episode. I went in expecting a lot, and came out feeling pretty good about it. I wish there had been more Ancients / Atlanteans interaction, but the story went well w/o it.

As for ships, I think that opening scene was a friendship thing. Thats how I interpretted it, in any case. And I don't know where the McKay / Teyla "ship" comes from, I haven't seen that in the Atlantis I've been watching...

Probably from an alternate Atlantis in an alternate timeline... :D

drkevlee
December 7th, 2004, 08:18 PM
Gotta say that I quite enjoyed the episode and sheds some light on the logistical issues of Atlantis still being here after 10,000 years...

I also really like the small touches of continuity, with 'Morros' being in the hologram, just like when the same actress in 'Frozen' was in the first shot of the Atlantis pilot...

But now having a point of comparison with Atlantean ships versus the Wraith ships, there's a logistical problem with the technology they use now- If the Atlantean vessels were only moderately more powerful than the Wraith ones 10,000 years ago, how is it possible that the PuddleJumpers they use now have any effect against the Wraith darts in the current timeline?? I assume that in that period the Wraith technology would have advanced significantly, or at least appropriated some of the Atlantean technology.

That would be somewhat like a clipper ships from the 1900's in battle against a modern Destroyer-class vessel, but with a even larger technological gap. I used to assume that the Atlantis ships were sufficiently advanced that the Wraith 'caught up' over time. This no longer seems to be the case...? The only thing I could think of is perhaps the Wraith were in hibernation for a large chunk of that time, but I think each period of hibernation is something like 100-500 years, nothing close to 10,000 years. I don't know if this has been discussed before in detail, please point me to the appropriate threads if it has!

ShadowMaat
December 7th, 2004, 08:21 PM
First off, will people PLEASE remember that not everyone wants to know about Moebius and/or Siege, so please keep any comments about them in spoiler tags. Thank you.

Second, it was an interesting take on time travel. Personally, I'd liked to have seen a bit more of Weir and the various times she woke up to switch the ZPMs. I mean, did she really just wake up, switch them, and go back to sleep? Didn't she ever have the urge to... I dunno, live a little? So the stasis chamber only slows down metabolic processes and whatnot, it doesn't actually "freeze" them? That explains why she got so old. Even if lifesigns are slowed to a crawl, over the course of ten thousand years, the crawl still adds up.

I am proud to say that despite all the croonings of the Weir/Shep shippers, I still don't see it and I am very GRATEFUL that I don't see it since all the people screaming about Jack/Sam in SG-1 is what made me "see" it and that helped to ruin the show for me. :P I'll just ignore all future comments from shippers and stay blissfully unaware of that interpretation.

Loved that Rodney died a hero. Interesting that Wossname drowned instead of being eaten by the Wraith. I wonder if the Wraith ever even woke up in the original timeline. From the sound of it, not enough people survived (assuming the people trapped in the other puddle jumper even figured out/were able to fly it).

It would have been nice to see Old Weir's reaction to Teyla. "Who the hell are you?" ;)


and why was the passanger ship trying to break through a seige that had been going on for years why not use the stargate to get back to atlantis from where ever they were?
Because from what we understand, the Atlantis gate is the only one (or almost the only one) capable of reaching Earth. If they were trying to evacuate the galaxy, they'd need to get to Atlantis to do it. Maybe that's a big assumption on my part. I dunno what the energy levels of the other gates are like, but it's at least a possibility.




One problem, though: Obviously, in "our" reality, ever since Weir was born there has been two Weirs. One on Earth (and later in Atlantis) and one that was on Atlantis all along, in a stasis chamber. And yet, this never caused a "temporal entropic cascade failure on the cellular level".
Yes, I'd like this explained as well. Unless it's "different galaxy, different rules". :P Maybe it's just the slow adaptation process, but it still seems a little hinky to me. Old Weir changed the past/future and made it into "ours", but it doesn't change the fact that there are still two Weirs in one timeline... How was it explained in 1969?

LOVED the Back to the Future references. And I have to say, the portrayal of McKay and Shep were spot-on in this ep, at least from MY perspective. Loved McKay's jab at Shep, too, about not wasting ANOTHER opportunity to speak to an Ancient. :D

Erik Pasternak
December 7th, 2004, 08:24 PM
Yes, I'd like this explained as well. Unless it's "different galaxy, different rules". :P Maybe it's just the slow adaptation process, but it still seems a little hinky to me. Old Weir changed the past/future and made it into "ours", but it doesn't change the fact that there are still two Weirs in one timeline... How was it explained in 1969?My wild, wild theory is that they are from the same universe (or at least, didn't cross the dimensional barrier), so the quantum signature of the two Weirs was the same, thereby preventing the problem with temporal entropic cascade.

Gothann
December 7th, 2004, 08:27 PM
No one survived Atlantis' shield failiure except Weir.

Beckett (the last person with the Ancient gene who could possibly pilot the PJ) drowned, meaning EVERYONE drowned.

AsgardCarnage
December 7th, 2004, 08:33 PM
The only thing I could think of is perhaps the Wraith were in hibernation for a large chunk of that time, but I think each period of hibernation is something like 100-500 years, nothing close to 10,000 years. I don't know if this has been discussed before in detail, please point me to the appropriate threads if it has!

sure they are asleep but i think the major reason they havn't advanced is because they dont need to, since the human population levels have gone down they have probebly put more time and effort into keeping their race alive and enough food for everyone, they wouldn;t need stronger ships, no one is oposining them.


Because from what we understand, the Atlantis gate is the only one (or almost the only one) capable of reaching Earth. If they were trying to evacuate the galaxy, they'd need to get to Atlantis to do it. Maybe that's a big assumption on my part. I dunno what the energy levels of the other gates are like, but it's at least a possibility.


i mean gate back to atlantis then to earth, none of the other gates can reach earth because they dont have the 8th control crystal that atlantis has its not just because they dont have the power.

ShadowMaat
December 7th, 2004, 08:37 PM
i mean gate back to atlantis then to earth, none of the other gates can reach earth because they dont have the 8th control crystal that atlantis has its not just because they dont have the power.
Ohhhh yeah. *headslap* I dunno, maybe they were on worlds without a stargate? ;)

aAnubiSs
December 7th, 2004, 09:01 PM
Or the Wraith felt like putting up camps at the gates :)

Athenaktt
December 7th, 2004, 09:30 PM
I just have to say this is definatly a great episiode. I was exctied to see it this episode, and now that I finally seen it it had totally exceeded my expectations.

I enjoyed hearing the different version of the "first" expedition. I loved seeing how Mckay and Sheppard are like "Ha, you died too" to each other. It was like their way of dealing with their death...i think.

While watching "Before I sleep" it made me think of "2010" not in the story sense...but more like my feeling towards the characters. Even though the season's just started, we are still "getting to know" all the characters, but watching/hearing about Mckay, Sheppard, Old Weir die. I had to admit felt sad.

This episodes one that evokes bittersweet emotions i guess. Cuz in "2010" when all of future SG-1 died i was sadden by their loss, but glad that they were also still alive...okay i'll stop talking now and go to sleep.

fair_nymph
December 7th, 2004, 09:32 PM
I just watched this for the second time, and I have some details to comment on.

The 'hologram lady' is definitely named Morris/Morose. Old Weir is speaking and says 'But I had an ally..', then we hear Janus saying to Weir,'You need to speak to Morris' and the scene cuts to Janus, Weir, and the hologram lady.

Only one of the addresses on the note is familar to Rodney/the team. It is MG677, which, I presume, is the planet from Childhood's End. Rodney says 'It's MG677, we've been to this planet,' and nothing more on the matter until later when he repeats that.

Old Weir refers to the Council as the 'Atleantean Council' and their warships as 'Atlantean warships', so I'm pretty sure that means that the Ancients call themselves Atlanteans.

Anyone notice that Janus has elvish ears, like Sheppard? Any link/significance?

Erik Pasternak
December 7th, 2004, 09:52 PM
Anyone notice that Janus has elvish ears, like Sheppard? Any link/significance?I'll ask Greesha. :D (I hope someone gets it).

Athenaktt
December 7th, 2004, 10:10 PM
I'll ask Greesha. :D (I hope someone gets it).
LOL...I think i get it...but i might be delusional too ;)

Blend
December 7th, 2004, 10:10 PM
dam vulcans

Easter Lily
December 7th, 2004, 10:16 PM
Ahhh... a surprisingly moving episode ... which reminds me once again of comments that I've heard in the past about the importance of good casting. Wonderful interaction between cast members. Loved the Back to the Future references too.

Will we see Janus again? I wonder...

Athenaktt
December 7th, 2004, 10:18 PM
Ahhh... a surprisingly moving episode ... which reminds me once again of comments that I've heard in the past about the importance of good casting. Wonderful interaction between cast members. Loved the Back to the Future references too.

Will we see Janus again? I wonder...
"moving episode!" that was the word i was looking for! I really need to get some sleep.

KayMan2k
December 7th, 2004, 10:33 PM
Now back to the actual name of the Ancients. Didn't the Wraith from "The Defiant One" call them something different? It was close to Ancient, but different enough to maybe be their original name. Also, do the Ancients speak English? Since Weir could speak with the Ancients without translation.

He called them Atlanteans. Wier has called them both Atlanteans and Ancients. The 'Ancients' have not called themselves anything, but have denied that they call themselves Ancients.

AsgardCarnage
December 7th, 2004, 10:37 PM
yeah i gotta say in only 15 eps they have really developed the charictors well. i always love the banter mostly the pop cultual refrences makes it seem so much real, because me an my friends talk the same way alot of the time. gotta love whole convosations spoken entirly in simpson,futurama, seinfeld and a whole bunch of movie quotes

lordvader
December 7th, 2004, 10:40 PM
Just thinking ...
According to "Window of Opportunity", the Ancients tried, but failed at time travel.
Here, they clearly succeeded. So the question would be, which "ancients" attempted time travel in Window? I'm guessing that it was the million year plus ancients (or at least the ones who didn't return to pegasus), as they had the plague, and there didn't seem to be a council stopping the research ...

AsgardCarnage
December 7th, 2004, 10:58 PM
my guess is thats how they know time travel is no good and should not be messed with because of the past fauliure with the WoO time machine.

the window of opertunity time machine was diffrent it was trying to create a bubble in space made up of more then 15 stargates and taking them and the space between them out of the normal flow of time, they just couldn't get it to work it just made a loop instead being able to change anything.

Mr. Seven
December 8th, 2004, 12:24 AM
I loved this episode. Everything has come full circle and the writers came up with a neat way for the team to locate ZPM's.

I'm psyched for the closing episodes of this season!

I wonder how SG1 will be..and if they will mention Atlantis at all..

alaskannut
December 8th, 2004, 02:15 AM
We also learn that the Ancients may have left schematics for their Warships in the Ancient database,

sonuvagun! daddy likey!!! :D

Harlan
December 8th, 2004, 04:58 AM
OK ! I really enjoyed the episode !
It was outstanding, and quite captivating :) !

As usual, I've some questions :D ...

1 - When Shep, Weir and Zelenka turned on the 'Time Jumper', they travelled in time. Ok ... but they also travelled from a place to another ... the ship travelled from the Altlantis Hangar (Present Time) to the planet orbit (10 000 in the past) ... so how could the ship travel from a location to another without flying ? Is there a special device on the Time Jumper which allows you to choose the time you want to go, and also the location you want to reach ???

2 - Why did Weir become older while she was frozen ? I mean ... when entering in the stasis chamber, she was 'normal', and after 10 000 years in the chamber, she became older ? Why ?
Remember the ancient woman (Ayiana in the episode 'Frozen', SG-1 S6) ! She spent millions and millions of years frozen, without becoming older !!!

Oh ! I forgot to congratulate Torri Higginson for her amazing way
to play the old Weir ... she's really a good actress.
And that's good to finally see a 'Weir-focused' episode !
This is such a good character ;) !

Wass
December 8th, 2004, 05:08 AM
2 - Why did Weir become older while she was frozen ? I mean ... when entering in the stasis chamber, she was 'normal', and after 10 000 years in the chamber, she became older ? Why ?
Remember the ancient woman (Ayiana in the episode 'Frozen', SG-1 S6) ! She spent millions and millions of years frozen, without becoming older !!!


To answer your question weir is human and not ancient therefore her body aged faster also stasis chamber slows the aging process but does not keep you young for ever I thought for a 10, 000 year old women she did looked ok. :p

Harlan
December 8th, 2004, 05:12 AM
To answer your question weir is human and not ancient therefore her body aged faster also stasis chamber slows the aging process but does not keep you young for ever I thought for a 10, 000 year old women she did looked ok. :p
Indeed, that's a good point ;) !
And what about the Time Jumper ?

gamebeavis
December 8th, 2004, 05:58 AM
I havent had a chance to read the entire thread yet so forgive me if this has been mentioned. But I would like to throw my 2 cents into the hat.

1. I keep reading arguments about where the wraith came from and how they fit into the "grand ancient timeline". But we seem to have forgoten something. 5 MILLION years is a LONG TIME. The ancients showed up in pegasus 5 MILLION years ago, alot and I mean ALOT could have taken place in that time. The ancients themselves may not even remember how the wraith came about. Also, the wraith could have evolved alot in that time, meaning they may have not always been life sucking demons, for example Humans didnt always eat cows, but now its one of the major things we eat (well atleast here in america), we simply ate them because they were there, they were plentiful, and they were easy to catch.
Do we know if the wraith existed before the ancients arrived, NO.
Do we know what they ate before humans, NO.
Just remember, its fun to speculate, but the powers that be will let us know when they get around to it.

2. As for the "Time loop" device found in Window of Opportunity (my FAV episode EVER), I seem to remember Daniel stating that the writting on the stones where in one of the OLDEST dialects of Ancient. So you have to ask yourself, why build a machine 10,000 years ago (when they came back from pegasus, presumable to outwit the plague), and write its history down in the oldest language you have? That would be like us building the space station, and then documenting it in Sanskrit.

Also, I theorize it takes a LOT of power to punch a hole in time, thus they probably would have required a ZPM to do anything? But I am not sure on that one. But since they were only able to create a "minor" jump in the past by linking a dozen stargates togeather and drawing on the power from them, I think you could probly jump further with more power. Thus why didnt they just plug in a ZPM if they existed at this time? Or maybe just maybe, ZPMs didnt exist yet? Possibly that machine was built LONG before atlantis?? Im more than likely wrong though.

One more thing, it is VERY possible the PTB dont even know the timeline. Isnt that what makes SCI FI great, you have the ability to create something so compelling, that then later on figure out how to "rewrite" the history to how it fits into place.

gamebeavis
December 8th, 2004, 06:47 AM
I have 2 theories on why the "Time jumper" not only changed time but position in space.

1. The puddle jumper had a fail safe protocol not to emerge in solid matter, if you think about where the puddle jumper was when it left, it would have caused MAJOR problems had it not moved. The time jumper was in the jumper bay when the major jumped, now the jumper was left there by the ancients 10,000 years ago, meaning it was in the exact spot the jumper left from, thus the 2 time jumpers would have been in the SAME SPOT at the same time, I see some slight problems with that done you? Emerging in the vacuum of space seems like a good fail safe to me.
2. The planet is MOVING, it is rotating around a sun, just like ours is, as well as the sun/galaxy is moving. Thus even on the present earth, if you went back in time by just 6 months, but never changed your actual "location" in space, you would emerge in the vacuum of space, because earth would be on the other side of the sun by then, not to mention the entire solar system and galaxy would have moved slightly in that time. So the fact that the time jumper emerged anywere NEAR the planet atlantis is on after 10,000 years, is amazing in itself.

Wass
December 8th, 2004, 06:51 AM
Good point like the idea gamebeavis

OfF3nSiV3
December 8th, 2004, 07:21 AM
I don't understand one thing
when will weir go back in time?
time is linear, we saw weir go back in time when atlantis flooded, so no matter what weir would do in the past, the same future would happen. no matter what u see in movies, future can't be changed, if it happened it's because something caused and everything is done in past is gonna lead to that cause
in the present weir, atlantis didn't flooded so future was manipulated which would be an impossibility
and how will weir find the timeship if janus took the plans with him to earth? meaning the constructed timeship would be on earth, not on atlantis
and why didn't they fled in atlantis? it's a ship with unpenetrable shield, meaning a gun itself..just speed up and ram into any enemy ship

Harlan
December 8th, 2004, 08:02 AM
gamebeavis, your theory on the fail safe for the Time Jumper is quite good !
I totally agree with you on this point ;) .


2. As for the "Time loop" device found in Window of Opportunity (my FAV episode EVER), I seem to remember Daniel stating that the writting on the stones where in one of the OLDEST dialects of Ancient. So you have to ask yourself, why build a machine 10,000 years ago (when they came back from pegasus, presumable to outwit the plague), and write its history down in the oldest language you have? That would be like us building the space station, and then documenting it in Sanskrit.
In my opinion, I assume there's no problem, because I really think the P4X-639 time machine was built BEFORE the Ancients went to Atlantis. Why ? Because in 'Rising' we learn that the Ancient originally left our galaxy because of the plague ... and in your statement, you say they suffered the plague after returning from Atlantis ... but that's wrong ! It's only because of the plague that they went to Atlantis ;) :) .

According to the episode 'Fallen' (SG-1 S7), the Ancients were building a lot of things when they first suffered from the plague ... Jonas explains they were building a powerful town called Vis Uban ... but they didn't finished it because they had to flee to Atlantis. And I assume this is the same thing with the P4X-639 time machine. They were improving it in order to escape to return in the past to stop the plague ... but the plague probably became too big an dangerous and they had to flee, leaving all their experiments on P4X-639. That's my theory :D !

And if my theory is right, the 'space station before the sanskrit' problem may me fixed, no ?

;)

ShadowMaat
December 8th, 2004, 08:09 AM
There are a lot of different theories regarding time. The basic premise is:

Team reaches Atlantis.
Power doesn't come on automatically.
Team is killed.
Weir, Shep and Zelenka survive and board timeship.
Timeship jumps back 10,000 years.
Timeship is under attack.
Weir, Shep and Zelenka are in a ship they don't understand, under attack by people they don't understand, in a time/place that is uncertain.
Ship is destroyed before anyone can figure things out.
Weir is rescued by Janus.
Janus makes adjustments to city.
Weir begins her 10,000 year journey.
Team reaches Atlantis.
Power comes on automatically.

You have TWO timelines, now. One where the team reached Atlantis and died and one where they lived. The "they lived" timeline is the one we're following. The events in the other timeline are are still solid- Weir DID go back and change things. just because things are changed in "our" timeline doesn't change what happened in the "other" timeline.

It's a paradox, but it's a workable one if you accept the theory of a multiverse/divergent timelines.

ColdZero
December 8th, 2004, 08:49 AM
It is never stated in Rising that they left because of the plague. Daniel says they don't know why they left, but that we knew that they were suffering from a plague. While that implies that the reason they left was because of the plague it doesn't state it. Obviously this time ship is from after "Window of Opportunity". If they had mastered time travel with this puddle jumper, why create the gate one? Also the ancient guy seemed pretty pissed at causality, kinda like something had gone wrong in the past and it was taboo.

One thing they didn't explain, and maybe this has already been discussed, I haven't read the 6 pages of posts, but when was the recording made to explain the wraith? Why did the Ancients leave a recording to explain everything if the people returning would have been themselves?

Also, with Janus, why give them the locations of just 5 ZPMs, sure thats a lot of them, but...why not explain how to make them? The ancients must have been able to do it if they put one at every outpost and 3 at Atlantis.

Wass
December 8th, 2004, 09:33 AM
Great episode for those who wanted to learn more about the ancients. Also great character development for Dr Weir just goes to show how good of an actress Torri is when playing the old weir and the present weir. Mckay and Shapperd were brilliant in there interaction and very funny.


What we have learnt (some questions answered others left unanswered)

The spoilers are mostly quotes from this epsiode

Mckay: “That’s what I was afraid of freezer burn”

Mckay to Shapperd: “hah the bitter taste of ultimate failer”
Shapperd: “..if you had just figured out how to fix the damn shield in the first place non of us would have died ”


1 The Ancient council and Ascension – We finally meet the political council that governed the ancients they seemed to be pretty conservative in there view it would explain why the ascended ancient are forbidden from interfering in human development. The same council most exist where ever the ascended ancients are living now. Also there seems to be no evidence the ancient had ascended so IMO the research found in Atlantis by SGA must have carried on earth where they finally found the way to ascend and then all the ancients ascended.

2 The Enemy - A lot of people suggested there was another enemy after watching “Hot Zone” that is still possible but maybe it was the plague that was killing them in MW. Also the ancient referred to the enemy they were fighting as the wraith so the there were no other enemy involved that we know of. Finally the idea that the wraith were an experiment done by the ancients that went wrong is put to rest because there are no suggestion of that nor are there any suggestion that the wraith are the furlings

Maros (Hologram Lady): “….by directly encountering the wraith……..”
Old Weir: “They told me a being called the wraith vicious, formidable enemy who’s power and technology rivalled there own….”

3 The War – Finally as suggested by many people they lost the war because they were outnumbered by the wraith. Also it puts an end to the arguments that the wraith were technologically as advanced as the ancients. The wraith warship one-on-one with ancient warship would lose as referred to in the episode but they hunted in groups like wolves do. They worked together to defeat the ancients, the wraith were just below technologically from the ancients but they were more war like and ancients were more peaceful. This is best explained when the ancient said they sent a delegation with warships to negotiate some sort of truce but it resulted in a great battle which they probably lost and it goes to show how naive the ancients were from the treat they faced.

Old Weir: “The Atlantians sent there delegation protected by there most powerful ships in feint hope of negotiating truce, one on one the Atlantian ships were more powerful but the wraith were so many”

4 Time Machine – What we learn is that ancient managed to master time technology, towards the end of the episode we see Janus taking his research back to earth which may explain the time machine SG-1 find in “It’s good to king”.

Old weir: “What’s all that”
Janus: “My research”
Old weir: “Your going to build another time machine”
Janus: “Doubt I will succeed seeing that the council will be watching my every move”
Old weir: “I’m sure you will find a way.”

5 Ancient Repository Knowledge – I always wondered why the ancients would create such device now I have theory what if it was Janus who created the in order to help the humans of future develop ancient tech/weapons from the knowledge to fight the wraith. Also Janus seemed to be rebel who never did what the council ordered him to do.

6 Weapons – We did not see any weapons on Atlantis but they did mention warships which would put to rest a lot of theories by people who said the ancients never had warships or they had small weapons platforms. Although I think they developed weapons but never mass produced them or build massive fleet of warship probably because they never needed to before.

7 The Plague – Now this was never mentioned in the episode but IMO the plague must have occurred before they came to Pegasus and reason is if species as advanced as the ancients who had this great empire surly they must have had big populations as the empire grows so does the population now it seems the were outnumbered in the war with wraith which suggest that the ancient were in small numbers and lot of them died in MW from the plague those who survived came to Pegasus.

Feel free add your opinions if you agree or disagree with what I have written, this is jus my opinion and based of facts from the episode as well as some assumptions.

P.S. – This is probably the longest post I have ever written usually I tend to keep the post brief but I thought why not post what I have learn from this episode.

PlaZ
December 8th, 2004, 09:42 AM
4 Time Machine – What we learn is that ancient managed to master time technology, towards the end of the episode we see Janus taking his research back to earth which may explain the time machine SG-1 find in “It’s good to king”.

Dude!

you are spoiling it for us/me

ShadowMaat
December 8th, 2004, 09:45 AM
PLEASE, guys, spoiler warnings are needed for UPCOMING EPS!!! Those tags were amde for a reason, and they're very easy to use. [ spoiler] and [ /spoiler]

Please, please, please will those of you (there's more than one) talking about upcoming eps and especially stuff about SG-1 PLEASE remember to use spoiler warnings. Thanks.

Wass
December 8th, 2004, 09:52 AM
Sorry my mistake I assumed it was in folder that is full of spoilers plus this thread is about this episode but anyway fixed it.

Ugly Pig
December 8th, 2004, 09:54 AM
Sorry my mistake I assumed it was in folder that is full of spoilers plus this thread is about this episode but anyway fixed it.
You don't need spoiler tags for information regarding this episode, but you very much do need them for upcoming ones.

ShadowMaat
December 8th, 2004, 09:55 AM
You don't need spoiler tags for information regarding this episode, but you very much do need them for upcoming ones.
Especiallly upcoming eps of ANOTHER SHOW, which would be in an entirely different folder. ;) Thanks Wass.

Lexx
December 8th, 2004, 10:00 AM
I don't understand one thing
when will weir go back in time?
time is linear, we saw weir go back in time when atlantis flooded, so no matter what weir would do in the past, the same future would happen. no matter what u see in movies, future can't be changed, if it happened it's because something caused and everything is done in past is gonna lead to that cause
in the present weir, atlantis didn't flooded so future was manipulated which would be an impossibility
and how will weir find the timeship if janus took the plans with him to earth? meaning the constructed timeship would be on earth, not on atlantis
and why didn't they fled in atlantis? it's a ship with unpenetrable shield, meaning a gun itself..just speed up and ram into any enemy ship
Because going by the multiverse model, Weir didn't change anything. She just created another universe, one in which the team survives. Her original team is still dead, but since she went back in time she's not in that universe anymore. That also explains away the Crazy Thing Who's Name I Forget that happened to the two Carters in "Point of View". Technically speaking, both Weir's belong in the same universe since they both share a common history up until Weir appears back in time. And since it was Weir who created this universe, she belongs here just as much as our Weir.

2 - Why did Weir become older while she was frozen ? I mean ... when entering in the stasis chamber, she was 'normal', and after 10 000 years in the chamber, she became older ? Why ?
Remember the ancient woman (Ayiana in the episode 'Frozen', SG-1 S6) ! She spent millions and millions of years frozen, without becoming older !!!
Weir became older because the stasis unit doesn't exactly freeze the occupant. It just extremely slows down the person's bodily functions. Weir still aged over those 10,000 years, albeit very slowly. As for Ayiana, I'm pretty sure she was frozen in normal ice which preserved her. That's why she had brain damage when she was first revived. The only reason she survived in the first place was because of her Uber Ancient physiology.

UnknownJ
December 8th, 2004, 10:14 AM
5 Ancient Repository Knowledge – I always wondered why the ancients would create such device now I have theory what if it was Janus who created the in order to help the humans of future develop ancient tech/weapons from the knowledge to fight the wraith. Also Janus seemed to be rebel who never did what the council ordered him to do.

I find it really hard to imagine that the ancient repository of knowledge has anything whatsoever to do with the Wraith, not least of all because it would cheapen an important artefact in SG1 to nothing more than a spinoff from Atlantis.. It's described in The Fifth Race as "The Place of Our Legacy" (or something along those lines), which makes it far more plausible that it's just a way for the Ancients to record their knowledge for posterity, rather than as a means of fighting a specific threat.

Everything doesn't have to be interconnected...

PlaZ
December 8th, 2004, 10:25 AM
i also find the repository linked to either janus or the wraith theory unlikely to be correct. Those things a simply way to scattered over the galaxy to show some logical pattern that directly points to the humans from earth.

gamebeavis
December 8th, 2004, 10:34 AM
gamebeavis, your theory on the fail safe for the Time Jumper is quite good !
I totally agree with you on this point ;) .


In my opinion, I assume there's no problem, because I really think the P4X-639 time machine was built BEFORE the Ancients went to Atlantis. Why ? Because in 'Rising' we learn that the Ancient originally left our galaxy because of the plague ... and in your statement, you say they suffered the plague after returning from Atlantis ... but that's wrong ! It's only because of the plague that they went to Atlantis ;) :) .

According to the episode 'Fallen' (SG-1 S7), the Ancients were building a lot of things when they first suffered from the plague ... Jonas explains they were building a powerful town called Vis Uban ... but they didn't finished it because they had to flee to Atlantis. And I assume this is the same thing with the P4X-639 time machine. They were improving it in order to escape to return in the past to stop the plague ... but the plague probably became too big an dangerous and they had to flee, leaving all their experiments on P4X-639. That's my theory :D !

And if my theory is right, the 'space station before the sanskrit' problem may me fixed, no ?

;)


Sorry, I compleatly forgot to "End" my thought in that post, wow MENTAL SLIP. What I was trying to get at was pretty much what you said. The only "logical" reason the research for the device in Window of Opportunity to be written in the OLDEST language of the ancients would be if the thing was built LONG before they left for pegasus. Thus this was there first attempt at time travel, thus solidifying the councils conservative nature about time travel, since it went wrong the first time.

One other thing that kind of bothers me though. Why, would the "Time Jumper" take them to that exact point in history? I am curious, if the "Time Jumper" isnt a "Time Jumper at all" but more like a time stargate with only one other address. Let me explain. The time machine was created 10,000 years ago, and obviously it was never able to be tested, or things would have been different for the ancients?? I mean if your entire civilization is being distroyed and your Jonas (who time and time again does what he wants anyhow no matter what the council tells him), and you have the means to change your peoples fate, wouldnt you do it?? Thus, I dont think the time machine was ever tested, but possibly it was turned on at some point. What if the time machine only travels from the current point in time, to the point of its creation? Kind of like a one way stargate system, 2 identical pieces in 2 different times that you are tranported instantly from one to the other, but ONLY to the point it was first powered up?? That would also show us why (if my galaxy/planet drift idea is correct) they popped up in space, it was because that is EXACTLY the same spot it was in 10,000 years in the future.

Possible spoilers for SG-1:
Maybe that is why the time jumper goes back to 10,000 is years ago egypt? Because that is where and when it was created and powered on?
End Spoilers.

This would also hold true to some of the "negative" energy experiments they are currently attempting in real life. They are attempting to create 2 negativly charged spaces that actualy hold the same chunk of space/time, thus one space could be taken millions of miles away, millions of years in the future, and the other left here, but walking into one, you would walk out the other. Thus time/space travel in one. But its only theory so far.

Shipperahoy
December 8th, 2004, 12:34 PM
As has been brought up already you need to use spoiler space when discussing upcoming episodes and/or episodes of SG-1. I'm one of the only mods who will read spoilers so it's just me watching this thread and it's finals time so I don't have a lot of spare time so it would be really helpful to me if those of you who have included spoilers for SG-1 in your posts without spoiler space could go back and edit them as I don't have the time to go back through the posts. Thanks a lot.

Wass
December 8th, 2004, 01:23 PM
Especiallly upcoming eps of ANOTHER SHOW, which would be in an entirely different folder. ;) Thanks Wass.

It was not intentional I did say SORRY, hopefully it should be fine I have added spoiler tags.

schnoov
December 8th, 2004, 01:34 PM
My only issue with specifically blocking incoming connections from certain gates is that there is (as yet) no basis for it in SG1..

Perhaps he was thinking a little more outside of the box. What about sending a correlative update (Avenger 2.0) to all of the Pegasus DHDs that removed Atlantis from their "dialing directory". The Atlantis gate/dialing computer was then powered down along with the rest of the city until the expedition from Earth showed up. When the city woke up, power was restored to the gate & dialing computer which could (concievably) then automatically add itself back to the rest of the Pegasus gates with another update.

Mio
December 8th, 2004, 02:44 PM
Perhaps he was thinking a little more outside of the box. What about sending a correlative update (Avenger 2.0) to all of the Pegasus DHDs that removed Atlantis from their "dialing directory". The Atlantis gate/dialing computer was then powered down along with the rest of the city until the expedition from Earth showed up. When the city woke up, power was restored to the gate & dialing computer which could (concievably) then automatically add itself back to the rest of the Pegasus gates with another update.
I think that would have been a bit much, when presented with 2 other options:

Atlantis's stargate has some advanced Caller ID that we haven't figured out yet.

An Intergalactic wormhole acts a bit differently from a regular one. It's possible that the Stargate is smart enough to know this, and the Atlantis mainframe could detect this, and raise the iris if the wormhole wasn't from another galaxy.

PlaZ
December 8th, 2004, 02:57 PM
We already know that the atlantis gate has at least one more feature that other gates do not have. the dialing "computer" with its earth-calling card.
and since its hooked up the computer and the atlantians know pretty much about their own tech i'd say its fair to say that they were able to easily activate caller id / dial in blocking. I can easily accept that.

OfF3nSiV3
December 8th, 2004, 02:59 PM
i have only one question left: does the weir in 'our' reality has to go back in time?
i don't think so

PlaZ
December 8th, 2004, 03:06 PM
no. it doesnt look like it. that would only cause the already mentioned "loop".

ShadowMaat
December 8th, 2004, 03:13 PM
As far as we know, there is/was no timeship in "our" reality, so there is/was no way for "our" Weir to go back in time. But she doesn't have to because the "other" Weir already did it. :)

OfF3nSiV3
December 8th, 2004, 03:16 PM
As far as we know, there is/was no timeship in "our" reality, so there is/was no way for "our" Weir to go back in time. But she doesn't have to because the "other" Weir already did it. :)

yes but weir would have to go back sometime in the future, because if it wouldn't there would be no 'other' weir

ShadowMaat
December 8th, 2004, 03:30 PM
yes but weir would have to go back sometime in the future, because if it wouldn't there would be no 'other' weir
The word of the day is "multiverse". Weir has already gone back in time and created the timeline which is "ours". That's rote. It's already happened. It doesn't need to happen again because it happened once already. :)

Welcome to paradox. :D

Ugly Pig
December 8th, 2004, 03:50 PM
yes but weir would have to go back sometime in the future, because if it wouldn't there would be no 'other' weir
When Weir traveled to the past, she created an alternate reality (ours). In it, Weir doesn't have to travel back in time, because it already happened in that alternate reality. It is the fact that alternate Weir travelled back in time that made this reality exist in the first place, in which Weir does not travel back in time.

Shipperahoy
December 8th, 2004, 04:01 PM
When Weir traveled to the past, she created an alternate reality (ours). In it, Weir doesn't have to travel back in time, because it already happened in that alternate reality. It is the fact that alternate Weir travelled back in time that made this reality exist in the first place, in which Weir does not travel back in time.

Where's my Advil when I need it? Between this stuff and finals week my brain is liable to literally explode. Calgon take me away!

Mio
December 8th, 2004, 04:05 PM
Where's my Advil when I need it? Between this stuff and finals week my brain is liable to literally explode. Calgon take me away!
Read Timeline, by Michael Crichton. It'll all make sense.


In fact, to anyone who doesn't understand the multiverse w/ time travel concept: Go out to your library and get Timeline.

Positively Kanyon
December 8th, 2004, 06:14 PM
Well, I thought it was a fantastic episode with a very unique take on the whole time travel concept. Definately my favourite bit was this conversation (from memory):

McKay: This jumper had an additional component added to it.
Sheppard: Flux Capacitor?

And also the little tidbit of conversation between Janus and Weir that will definately play into SG-1. It was good to finally find out after 7 and half years of SG-1 and 3/4 of a year of Atlantis, what happened to the Ancients/Atlanteans but it didn't reveal all, and no doubt the writers have done that on purpose, only throwing us a bone to appease us for now.

I think the show is really going to hit it's stride in Season 2 when the writers really start getting into the whole backstory. I think the show has really only had 1 or 2 "average" episodes this season with all the rest being very well done, especially from "The Storm" onwards. Thumbs up from me!

Aadizookaan
December 8th, 2004, 06:55 PM
Ok Ladies and Gentlemen,

Rewatch the episode very carefully, to obtain the name of the Altantian Woman who just happens to be the hologram, you must listen to Janus and watch who Janus is looking at when he says the words..."you need to talk to Moros", because the ally Wier was talking about was Janus himself - he helps her make it safe for the second expedition to succeed where her team did not.

Her name is not MOROS it is Melia as stated in the Gateworld Episode Spoiler Section for this specific episode.

:p So there, thus endeth the name debate! :)

UnknownJ
December 8th, 2004, 08:00 PM
I agree that Moros is the guy on the council. However, I don't remember them actually calling her Melia anywhere in the episode, and since the actress's name is Melia McClure (bless IMDB) I can see where some confusion might have arisen in the spoilers section...

fair_nymph
December 8th, 2004, 09:39 PM
you must listen to Janus and watch who Janus is looking at when he says the words..."you need to talk to Moros", because the ally Wier was talking about was Janus himself
I thought about Janus simply being the ally, but Janus is still looking towards the hologram lady when he says 'you need to talk to moros'. The old guy is NOT IN THAT SCENE. I've watched it twice, and I'm positive about this.

The only possibility is that Janus is actually talking TO hologram lady and telling her that SHE needs to talk to 'moros', but that doesn't really make sense.

The name Melia is never mentioned in the episode.

Like I said, I watched it twice, very carefully.

astronomicalchick
December 9th, 2004, 02:16 AM
When Weir traveled to the past, she created an alternate reality (ours). In it, Weir doesn't have to travel back in time, because it already happened in that alternate reality. It is the fact that alternate Weir travelled back in time that made this reality exist in the first place, in which Weir does not travel back in time.

Yes, that's what I understood it to be...

and entropic cascade failure didn't apply cos (1) Young Weir has only existed for 35 odd years and (2) Old Weir was in stasis, and if ageing is slow perhaps so are the effects of entropic cascade failure.

I can't believe I actually remembered entropic cascade failure off the top of my head. I'm spending way too much time here!

UnknownJ
December 9th, 2004, 03:07 AM
The only possibility is that Janus is actually talking TO hologram lady and telling her that SHE needs to talk to 'moros', but that doesn't really make sense.

Makes sense to me - if Janus thinks that she's more open to the idea, he'd ask her to try and convince Moros...

fair_nymph
December 9th, 2004, 05:56 AM
It mostly doesn't make sense (to me at least) because of the tone of voice/ way Janus says it.

Wass
December 9th, 2004, 08:06 AM
Ok Ladies and Gentlemen,

Rewatch the episode very carefully, to obtain the name of the Altantian Woman who just happens to be the hologram, you must listen to Janus and watch who Janus is looking at when he says the words..."you need to talk to Moros", because the ally Wier was talking about was Janus himself - he helps her make it safe for the second expedition to succeed where her team did not.

Her name is not MOROS it is Melia as stated in the Gateworld Episode Spoiler Section for this specific episode.

:p So there, thus endeth the name debate! :)

Come to think of it you may be right he may be referring to the old man with a beard

UnknownJ
December 9th, 2004, 09:41 AM
It mostly doesn't make sense (to me at least) because of the tone of voice/ way Janus says it.

Perhaps, but since that bit sounds very dubbed anyway, it doesn't seem so odd that the tone doesn't fit.

Lexx
December 9th, 2004, 11:25 AM
I thought Janus was telling the Hologram Lady to talk to Moros. Like UnkownJ said, she seemed open minded enough for Janus to maybe turn her to his side.

ThawkTH
December 9th, 2004, 12:22 PM
I just have to say, amazingly riveting episode! I was shocked, I have never enjoyed an Atlantis episode quite this much. It even rivaled some (dare I even think it?) recent SG-1 eps! I was truly afraid Atlantis would never hit a stride. I'm overjoyed that it has!

I'd have to say that the Atlantean timeline has been giving me (and I'm sure lots of you) some nasty headaches. There seem to be two or three major accepted theories, but I suppose we could also agree the writers have only thrown us a bone to keep us hungering for more :p

Anything in particular anyone WANTS to see as a result of what we saw today (and how does it relate to the ep, since this is an ep discussion forum)

(I.E. timeship found elsewhere like in SG-1's "It's good to be king", a warship found, more contact with earth thanks to ZPMs, weapons found)...

Again, I'm kinda new - so let me know if I shouldn't or can't do things like this!

TechnoBoY
December 9th, 2004, 01:43 PM
Hologram lady annoyed me. Something about her. She was too peppy or something.

Aadizookaan
December 9th, 2004, 04:28 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen,

:eek: I said, "thus endth the name debate", let it alone. :D

ShadowMaat
December 9th, 2004, 04:29 PM
Oh yes, and since you're the Grand High Poobah of All Things Namelike, I guess we must defer to your almighty decree.

THE GREAT OZ HAS SPOKEN! :P

AsgardCarnage
December 9th, 2004, 04:32 PM
"ignore the man behind the curtian then?"

h22chen
December 9th, 2004, 04:41 PM
One thing we know for sure, the Atlanteans went back to earth, so they came from the Milky Way and their horrible is indeed the Wraith (stated before in this thread).

The Ancient Hologram Lady (Melia I think) is attractive. =D

PlaZ
December 9th, 2004, 04:46 PM
The Ancient Hologram Lady (Melia I think) is attractive. =D
I think we can all agree on that... ?

h22chen
December 9th, 2004, 04:48 PM
horrible enemy I mean.

Cpn. Chris(tine) Bowman
December 9th, 2004, 07:28 PM
WOW! This episode is one of the best one in the whole Stargate franchise! It is officially my favorite episode EVER! I don't know what to say, I'm still reeling from it. :)

Easter Lily
December 9th, 2004, 09:06 PM
WOW! This episode is one of the best one in the whole Stargate franchise! It is officially my favorite episode EVER! I don't know what to say, I'm still reeling from it. :)

I liked it too... probably not as much as The Eye or Hot Zone but it was very good. Nice to see Torri Higginson exercise some of her acting chops. Great interaction between main cast members. Wouldn't mind seeing that Janus again... what a lovely voice...

Mio
December 10th, 2004, 03:31 AM
Oh. And we know that Stargate can do MUCH better old people than most other Series can :D

AscendedAncient
December 10th, 2004, 04:20 AM
I basically agree with Teal'c's idea. I'm betting the Milky Way Ancients died off from the plague after having tried several different ways to stop it (including the "Window of Opportunity" time machine). Sometime after the failed experiment a group of un-infected Ancients left in Atlantis, and started to look down on time travel because of the failure before. Either the remaining Ancients in Milky Way started the All Mighty Alliance in their waning years, or the Atlantians started it when they returned from Pegasus, for whatever time they had before their relatively miniscule population died out.
but if that were so, wouldnt janus and co use their shiny new timeship to go back in time when the ancients were NOT dead and teach them timetravel, and help them in other ways?

ShadowMaat
December 10th, 2004, 04:33 AM
but if that were so, wouldnt janus and co use their shiny new timeship to go back in time when the ancients were NOT dead and teach them timetravel, and help them in other ways?
It depends on how much time passed between the move back to Earth and the introduction of the plague. It also depends on whether or not Janus was alive (if he'd died of the plague, for example...). Another factor is how much control did he or anyone have over how far back they go. If the Ancients used it and traveled back a further 10,000 years, well, they could have tried leaving a message for themselves, but it's iffy on how well that would have worked. And of course that's assuming that anyone even allows the timeship to exist. If Janus built it in secret and ten kept it hidden (or it was ordered destroyed and he saved it) and then he died without telling anyone where it is (or left clues behind that no one followed), that wouldn't do folks much good, either.

As I said, the time device on P4X-639 might have been cobbled together from imperfectly understood notes left by Janus.

Lexx
December 10th, 2004, 09:36 AM
but if that were so, wouldnt janus and co use their shiny new timeship to go back in time when the ancients were NOT dead and teach them timetravel, and help them in other ways?
No, because as we saw in "Before I Sleep", the Ancients looked down on time travel. The episode is evidence in itself since the Ancients did have a working time machine, but they had it destroyed. Building another one would probably just piss the Council off more, not somehow change their mind.

Wass
December 10th, 2004, 09:54 AM
As I said, the time device on P4X-639 might have been cobbled together from imperfectly understood notes left by Janus.

But the method of time travel and tech was completely different from what Janus used in Before I sleep.

ShadowMaat
December 10th, 2004, 09:58 AM
But the method of time travel and tech was completely different from what Janus used in Before I sleep.
But the purpose for traveling back was different, too, so maybe they just took his theories and applied them in a different manner. And like I said, maybe they didn't have the supplies necessary to do it the way Janus did, so they had to use the stargate as an alternate.

Or maybe Janus went off and had a kid and his son/daughter followed in his footsteps, but wasn't necessarily as good as Dad. ;)

Or it was someone else entirely unconnected. *shrug* I'm just tossing theories into the mix.

Wass
December 10th, 2004, 10:34 AM
Well that may be true it all demands on when the plague appeared before the ancients war with wraith or after the war.

ShadowMaat
December 10th, 2004, 11:41 AM
If the plague affected the Ancients in the Milky Way galaxy, how did they catch it? Did they bring it with them from Pegasus? Did the Wraith visit Earth? The Keeper didn't seem to know about the planet, bur ya never know. Or maybe they sent it through the gate?

UnknownJ
December 10th, 2004, 12:16 PM
If the plague affected the Ancients in the Milky Way galaxy, how did they catch it? Did they bring it with them from Pegasus? Did the Wraith visit Earth? The Keeper didn't seem to know about the planet, bur ya never know. Or maybe they sent it through the gate?

No, they were suffering from it before they left for Pegasus (see Frozen and Rising pt1)

ShadowMaat
December 10th, 2004, 01:37 PM
No, they were suffering from it before they left for Pegasus (see Frozen and Rising pt1)
Hmm... I'd wondered about that, but they looked awfully healthy in BIS. Granted, the plague wasn't part of that storyline, but it might have been nice to see them moving out their sick or something or see one of them look less than perfectly healthy. Or just a throwaway comment about the disease...

Or was there one and I missed it?

Wass
December 10th, 2004, 01:49 PM
If the plague affected the Ancients in the Milky Way galaxy, how did they catch it? Did they bring it with them from Pegasus? Did the Wraith visit Earth? The Keeper didn't seem to know about the planet, bur ya never know. Or maybe they sent it through the gate?


I have been think about that for while if the ancient discovered an out break of plague they must have sealed the place off to stop the spread of the plague now what if the plague was spread through out the MW or where ever the ancients were through the stargate network it would make it impossible to stop the spread of the plague.

UnknownJ
December 11th, 2004, 03:25 AM
Hmm... I'd wondered about that, but they looked awfully healthy in BIS. Granted, the plague wasn't part of that storyline, but it might have been nice to see them moving out their sick or something or see one of them look less than perfectly healthy. Or just a throwaway comment about the disease...

Or was there one and I missed it?

It has been suggested that they didn't take anyone suffering from the plague with them to Pegasus (like Aiyana)

AscendedAncient
December 11th, 2004, 03:47 PM
No, because as we saw in "Before I Sleep", the Ancients looked down on time travel. The episode is evidence in itself since the Ancients did have a working time machine, but they had it destroyed. Building another one would probably just piss the Council off more, not somehow change their mind.
yes.. but why?
why do they look down upon their one opportunity to set things right?
what could be so horrible about it that they prefer to have their race wiped out than use this one thing (time travel) to save themselves?

ShadowMaat
December 11th, 2004, 03:51 PM
Maybe they've had a bad experience with it before.

Or maybe they just have different fundamentals. Why do some people object to testing on animals? Why is stem cell research such a big issue? So what if athletes use steroids? Why shouldn't we mess around with the timeline?

Liv
December 11th, 2004, 04:11 PM
Yes, I'm stepping in a bit late here with my thoughts on the episode, but better late than never. Or something like that. :p

Let me just start off by saying that we are officially back on track, after the slippery slope that was the Sanctuary episode. Thankfully. ;)

Going into this, I didn't really know what to expect, seeing as how time travel is a tricky thing and not that easy to pull off. But IMO, they did. Very much so. A lot of that I credit to Torri Higginson, who did a remarkable job as Old!Weir. Btw, if anyone's keeping track of my previous ramblings, Weir has indeed moved up on the ladder. She might just be my third favorite character on the show now. Not bad, considering I didn't have high hopes for her in the beginning. I do now.

The Sheppard/McKay banter was in fine form this episode. As always, I might add. Them teasing each other about dying was just hysterical.

McKay: "Hah! Ah, the bitter taste of ultimate failure, huh?"
Sheppard: "Well, if you had just figured out how to fix the damn shield in the first place, none of us would have died."
McKay: "I did everything I could, including valiantly attempting to save your sorry --"

:D

Interesting also to note that McKay died, trying to save all of their lives. I wondered at first if this might be leading up to something. But then, Rodney was willing to take a big risk at the end of Hide and Seek too - albeit one with slightly better odds - turtle broach and all. He was also willing (more or less, anyway) to stay behind in the Jumper with Ford, in 38 Minutes, when things were looking not so bright. I'd say his doom and gloom attitude sometimes overshadows the fact that he's really quite brave in his own way. But I think his willingness to put himself at risk for others is there and I think it has been there from the very beginning. So to sum up: I was surprised at what happened to him, but not all that surprised that he chose to stay behind.

My only complaint, and one I know I'm not alone in, is the fact that Ford is still very much a background character, and that's just not acceptable for someone who is in the main credits of the show. I have a much, much better grasp of Beckett - and for that matter even Zelenka - than I have of Ford. It feels as though the writers don't know what to do with him. I'd even go so far as to say that both Bates and Grodin are, if not more developed, then certainly more interesting than poor Ford. This better change or they may as well put Bates on the team instead. At least then we'd get some good conflict out of it. :p

Thumbs up for the episode, though. :)

ShadowMaat
December 11th, 2004, 04:25 PM
My only complaint, and one I know I'm not alone in, is the fact that Ford is still very much a background character, and that's just not acceptable for someone who is in the main credits of the show. I have a much, much better grasp of Beckett - and for that matter even Zelenka - than I have of Ford. It feels as though the writers don't know what to do with him. I'd even go so far as to say that both Bates and Grodin are, if not more developed, then certainly more interesting than poor Ford. This better change or they may as well put Bates on the team instead. At least then we'd get some good conflict out of it. :p
Amen to this. Why have Ford there at all? They never do anything with him. Even Bates evokes a stronger emotional reaction from me than Ford does (granted, it's an intense dislike of the man, but at least it's an emotion). I want to like Aidan, I do, but there's just... nothing there. He's a tabula rasa. Sure, there have been a few hasty sketches added here and there, but they SEEM like hasty sketches and they don't really add up to much. TPTB have had multiple opportunities to develop Ford's character and thus far he's gotten screwed every time as the story hares off along some other line of thought that doesn't involve him at all... or only in the periphery.

He's a MAIN CHARCTER, for pity's sake! They should TREAT him like one!

Blueicus
December 11th, 2004, 07:04 PM
Very true, Ford still needs a lot of development in my opinion... it's somewhat true that even Zelenka's had more development than Ford (and I like Zelenka). At least we know Ford absolutely sucks at the prime numbers game, even when randomly guessing an answer :).

ShadowMaat
December 11th, 2004, 07:07 PM
Beckett, Zelenka and even Bates all have more distinct personalities, quirks and character development than Ford and they're all secondary/recurring characters.

If Beckett is going to be main cast next season, maybe they should drop Ford back or write the poor b***ard off the show. It isn't really fair to anyone to keep him around if they aren't going to do anything with him. Even Teal'c had a few central eps in S1.

Blend
December 11th, 2004, 08:57 PM
Beckett on SGA-1 would be great lol.

Fox McCloud
December 12th, 2004, 04:28 AM
The Ancients were around for a long time before leaving for pegasus. Perhaps they created the Repository as a last ditch effort to keep around their history/knowledge in the face of certain d00m.

So Atlantis left 5 mil years ago, and the inhabitants returned 10,000 years ago, but there were only what...200 Ancients by then. This owuld go well with creating an Alliance with Nox/Asgard/Furlings against the Go'ould. It is also possible that the Furlings were wiped out by Go'ould.

Hell, maybe the Returning Ancients had a part to play with the Tok'ra.

The Plague ridden Ancients left in MW during the 4.990mil year gap of Atlantis most likely Ascended. The ones that went to Pegasus probs Ascended aswell but not all of them.

wibble.

ShadowMaat
December 12th, 2004, 07:12 AM
OK, I'm not quite awake yet so all brain cells aren't functioning properly and I'm having trouble with the timeline again.

What is the originating point of the Ancients (Peg or MW) and why did they leave Earth/MW? I saw New Order and Rising, but I can't remember what happened.

UnknownJ suggested that they didn't take anyone suffering from the plague to Pegasus... but if that's true, how did they get the plague in the first place? It was created by the Wraith, right? And the Wraith are only in Pegasus? Or were they infected before they knew it and flaunted off to Earth only to realize they were all getting sick, so the healthy ones ran back to Pegasus to avoid their sick brethren only to come under attack by the Wraith AGAIN so they ran back to Eath begging forgiveness from the sick ones? What? Are the Ancients cosmic ping pong balls, bouncing back and forth between the two galaxies?

There was no evidence of any sick Ancients in BIS and sick or healthy, they took everyone with them when they left (except Weir).

Wass
December 12th, 2004, 08:05 AM
One thing I’m sure you all noticed is that the ancient tech in Pegasus (Atlantis) is more advanced then the tech we have come across in MW specially the stargate network in Pegasus which suggests to me when they came to Pegasus they developed new version of stargates which they only put in Pegasus galaxy. So I think it is likely they originated in MW and moved to Pegasus galaxy later on.

UnknownJ
December 12th, 2004, 09:25 AM
UnknownJ suggested that they didn't take anyone suffering from the plague to Pegasus... but if that's true, how did they get the plague in the first place? It was created by the Wraith, right?

Oh dear lord no..

Where has it ever been suggested that it was created by the Wraith?

If we accept that what Aiyana had was the plague (and there is, as yet, no evidence to the contrary), then the plague definitely existed before the Ancients went to Pegasus.

ShadowMaat
December 12th, 2004, 09:27 AM
So the plague is something that just randomly popped up out of nowhere with no real source except generic "space germs"?

UnknownJ
December 12th, 2004, 09:30 AM
I didn't say that.

However, there's nothing to suggest that it was created, or that there was a malicious intent behind it.

And like I said before, the evidence suggests that the plague existed prior to the ancients going to Pegasus, and there hasn't been any indication whatsoever that the Wraith have anything to do with it.

Wass
December 12th, 2004, 09:38 AM
The arguments can be made either way we will simply have to wait and see where the plague came from and whether it affected the ancients before or after they lost the war with the wraith.

UnknownJ
December 12th, 2004, 09:43 AM
The arguments can be made either way we will simply have to wait and see where the plague came from and whether it affected the ancients before or after they lost the war with the wraith.

With all due respect, without a shred of evidence to back it up, I'm not sure how exactly somebody could argue that the plague had anything to do with the wraith.

Especially since the evidence that does exist shows that the plague pre-dates Atlantis going to Pegasus.

Mike
December 12th, 2004, 09:47 AM
I must say, this was the best Atlantis episode IMO since the pilot.

Weir did a WONDERFUL job playing the parts. I was amazed.

ShadowMaat
December 12th, 2004, 09:47 AM
Yep, I'm reading up on that now. I had some of my facts backwards, which is where I got confused and jumped to the wrong conclusions. Although I think I also read something about a Wraith-created plague, which only made matters worse for me. ;)

But isn't it implied that the plague threatened to wipe out ALL life in the MW galaxy? Or do I have that wrong, too? Because if it's ALL life, and if at the time there was more life than just the Ancients, then doesn't it imply some kind of malicious intent? I know viruses can jump host species and mutate like wildfire, but wouldn't it take a very special kind of virus to threaten ALL life? Then again, I probably misunderstood that, too and the Ancients were the only ones affected. *sigh*

Do we know what happened to the Asgard? How they ended up in such a state? Did they resort to cloning because of the virus or was it just years and years of tinkering on themselves?

Maybe I should just quit while I'm ahead and admit that I'm too stupid to understand any of it. :P

Loved BIS. Great ep. Yay for Rodney being willing to sacrifice himself for the others. :)

Wass
December 12th, 2004, 09:52 AM
With all due respect, without a shred of evidence to back it up, I'm not sure how exactly somebody could argue that the plague had anything to do with the wraith.

Especially since the evidence that does exist shows that the plague pre-dates Atlantis going to Pegasus.

The problem is we simply don’t know the exact date of the plague and why I killed only some ancients and not all. Also if ancients were so advanced they could have figured out a cure for it.

As I said we can argue either way but we simply don’t know why, when and from where the plague appeared from.

keppiezbt
December 12th, 2004, 12:09 PM
i just saw this episdoe...find out osme good stuff about the ancients. i guess we can put to rest the argument abotu the war. the wraith one b/c they had superior numbers not better tech.


i wonder though- if the ancients went back to earth, when the plague occured. and i also whay impact the ancients had on the timeline when they returned to earth.

answers some good questions but raises many

Erik Pasternak
December 12th, 2004, 12:10 PM
answers some good questions but raises manyWelcome to science fiction.

keppiezbt
December 12th, 2004, 12:11 PM
The problem is we simply don’t know the exact date of the plague and why I killed only some ancients and not all. Also if ancients were so advanced they could have figured out a cure for it.

As I said we can argue either way but we simply don’t know why, when and from where the plague appeared from.

your 100% right and anything else is just guessing

keppiezbt
December 12th, 2004, 12:27 PM
the more i see sga, the more i think we will really find out all about the ancients through this show and only little tiny peices through sg1

Erik Pasternak
December 12th, 2004, 12:34 PM
the more i see sga, the more i think we will really find out all about the ancients through this show and only little tiny peices through sg1
Makes sense though, we are in the Ancients own city in Atlantis and there is some sort of database there, plus anything they have left behind.

Wass
December 12th, 2004, 03:21 PM
I'm sure tptb will feed us info bit by bit I hope we learn more about the wraith next season.

Erik Pasternak
December 12th, 2004, 03:25 PM
I'm sure tptb will feed us info bit by bit I hope we learn more about the wraith next season.
I'm sure we will. As with the early seasons of SG-1, the early seasons of Atlantis will be all about learning more about the new surrounding we are in. It shoudl be very interesting.

Wass
December 13th, 2004, 03:26 AM
I hope so I want to see more on the exploration of the city next season as well.

keppiezbt
December 13th, 2004, 05:50 AM
this episode was also good b/c it gives you an idea of the ancient population......if they had about 300 people on that transport plus they talked about a major battle, and given the size of the city..it would make sense that there were probally at least a million ancients when they came to pegasus but it appears only a few hundred went back to earth. thats a rough war right there.

I bet in the next few SG1 seasons we will find out what happens to the ancients when they come back to earth but thats just a guess

Lexx
December 13th, 2004, 07:51 AM
The problem is we simply don’t know the exact date of the plague and why I killed only some ancients and not all. Also if ancients were so advanced they could have figured out a cure for it.

As I said we can argue either way but we simply don’t know why, when and from where the plague appeared from.

All that we know about the plague is that it wiped out the Ancients in Milky Way, and that it was most likely the sickness Ayiana had. We also know that Ayiana was alive at the very least 5 million years ago, and that she was left behind when Atlantis left Earth. Going by all of that alone, the evidence points towards the plague existing before Atlantis left for Pegasus. I agree that there's a lot of unanswered questions, but as of now the available info does point towards pre-Pegasus.

yes.. but why?
why do they look down upon their one opportunity to set things right?
what could be so horrible about it that they prefer to have their race wiped out than use this one thing (time travel) to save themselves?
I have no idea. I'm just going by what we've been given. My best guess would probably be that there was a bad experience with the "Window of Opportunity" time machine, and that led to a ban on any further time travel experiments.

But isn't it implied that the plague threatened to wipe out ALL life in the MW galaxy? Or do I have that wrong, too? Because if it's ALL life, and if at the time there was more life than just the Ancients, then doesn't it imply some kind of malicious intent? I know viruses can jump host species and mutate like wildfire, but wouldn't it take a very special kind of virus to threaten ALL life?
There still might've been malicious intent behind it. Maybe some other race from way back when didn't like the Ancients or anyone else and started the plague. Or maybe some random Ancient went nuts and created it. There are a lot of possibilities, but so far the Wraith being behind it isn't one of them.

alz0rz
December 16th, 2004, 01:05 PM
Welcome to science fiction.

Indeed.

IMForeman
December 29th, 2004, 02:16 PM
I also made note that these Ancients (particularly Janus) seemed to dress similar to the Tok'ra, and it led me to a thought? What was it that made Egeria reject the ways of the Goa'uld? Was she a mutation, or did she change from being a Goa'uld to a Tok'ra? Maybe, just maybe, Egeria was a Goa'uld like the rest of them, and she took an Ancient from Atlantis as her host, and was unable to fully take over the Ancient, and could only blend in a truly symbiotic relationship, like the Tok'ra experience now. Maybe this Ancient influenced her, and kept her away from the Sarcophogous, and she turned from the ways of the Goa'uld, and spread this metanoia to her offspring, and thus was born the Tok'ra.

-IMF

Blue Banrigh
December 29th, 2004, 09:28 PM
I also made note that these Ancients (particularly Janus) seemed to dress similar to the Tok'ra, and it led me to a thought? What was it that made Egeria reject the ways of the Goa'uld? Was she a mutation, or did she change from being a Goa'uld to a Tok'ra? Maybe, just maybe, Egeria was a Goa'uld like the rest of them, and she took an Ancient from Atlantis as her host, and was unable to fully take over the Ancient, and could only blend in a truly symbiotic relationship, like the Tok'ra experience now. Maybe this Ancient influenced her, and kept her away from the Sarcophogous, and she turned from the ways of the Goa'uld, and spread this metanoia to her offspring, and thus was born the Tok'ra.

-IMF

Interesting theory.

Easter Lily
January 4th, 2005, 02:16 AM
I also made note that these Ancients (particularly Janus) seemed to dress similar to the Tok'ra, and it led me to a thought? What was it that made Egeria reject the ways of the Goa'uld? Was she a mutation, or did she change from being a Goa'uld to a Tok'ra? Maybe, just maybe, Egeria was a Goa'uld like the rest of them, and she took an Ancient from Atlantis as her host, and was unable to fully take over the Ancient, and could only blend in a truly symbiotic relationship, like the Tok'ra experience now. Maybe this Ancient influenced her, and kept her away from the Sarcophogous, and she turned from the ways of the Goa'uld, and spread this metanoia to her offspring, and thus was born the Tok'ra.

-IMF

I hate to throw a spanner into a very imaginative work :D ... but I had a look at the episode again and really didn't see that much resemblance between Tok'ra dress sense and Ancients clothing. I thought that the Tok'ra dressed to blend in with their environment. Even when they dress in beige, they seem to me more ragged in their dressing in Tok'ra Parts 1&2. I seem to remember from early episodes that Jollinar, Garshaw and other females dress in more elaborate or striking gowns. (Perhaps more of an indication of the host's origins?) The Ancients on the other hand, seem to go for the beige, calico look in a big way. ;)

ecm101
January 9th, 2005, 05:17 AM
I also think that the plague was pre Pegasus. The plague led them to leaveing the MW and to creating Spioler alter:









The device we will see in Threads.... which the ancients used to seed the MW and Pegasus with life.
IMO the plague was brought about by the Ancients by mistake.
:eek:

IMForeman
January 9th, 2005, 09:39 AM
I hate to throw a spanner into a very imaginative work :D ... but I had a look at the episode again and really didn't see that much resemblance between Tok'ra dress sense and Ancients clothing. I thought that the Tok'ra dressed to blend in with their environment. Even when they dress in beige, they seem to me more ragged in their dressing in Tok'ra Parts 1&2. I seem to remember from early episodes that Jollinar, Garshaw and other females dress in more elaborate or striking gowns. (Perhaps more of an indication of the host's origins?) The Ancients on the other hand, seem to go for the beige, calico look in a big way. ;)

I've already given up on my fanciful theory anyhow... If Egeria had taken an Ancient from Atlantis as a host, then all Tok'ra would have an understanding of Ancient technology, and knowlege of Atlantis's Gate Address. Just wouldn't work.

-IMF

Easter Lily
January 9th, 2005, 09:47 PM
The soundtrack was particularly good in this episode... it evoked all kinds of emotions particularly when Weir interacts with Weir... the lovely piano bits.

mathwizard
January 15th, 2005, 05:31 PM
Not sure whether this has been mentioned... but I just realised that Janus is Roman god of Gates and Doors, and also god of Beginning :rolleyes:

the_Ancients
January 22nd, 2005, 12:09 PM
Alright, so Before I Sleep was one of the better episodes in getting to know a tad more about the ancients, why there isn't a timeship in Atlantis, possibly why there is a timeship in SG-1's "Moebius" and other such tidbits.

Let's just say that SG:A breaks the linear rule of time travel this time around, going into the "multiverse" theory associated with the events of choice in each eventual universe.


Remember in the esp. Before I sleep, when Dr. Weir tells her younger self about how her team arrive at Atlantis and that bad things happend that she and a few other people had to escape and they used the time travel puddle jumper (this is of couse they did not know it was a time ship) to go back to Atlantis 10,000 years ago, just before the Ancients left for earth. Well Dr. Weir met Janus who created the time ship puddle jumper.... Janus did took all of his research of creating the jumper with him to earth.. and years later he some how arrive on the planet that Malboure was living in the esp. Good to be king and he created and used the time puddle jumper there.. It makes good sense that Janus was the one who wrote on the walls about the panet's history and future events.. again he has the time ship puddle jumper.

so is it possible that the time ship puddle jumper in good to be king is Janus's ship?

Crazedwraith
January 25th, 2005, 02:14 PM
Very nice episode. So sweet with the weir/weir interaction. I wonder how many of the ZPMs will eb effective i suppose at least one is elliots planet which they don't want to nick from but surely one of the other four will be partially useful (the mechanism to get the 'letters from pegasis' home?)

Very nice episodes it was so heart rendering to realise for weir the first time the entire expetion got wiped out in the first hour.

JackDaniels
January 25th, 2005, 02:20 PM
.

so is it possible that the time ship puddle jumper in good to be king is Janus's ship?

Just watched the episode on Sky One and had to say it was great. When they said "So where is the time ship now?" I was shouting at the TV "It's already on Earth!"

I really enjoyed this episode. It showed us a back story to their arrival on Atlantis, gave us a bit more of a look at Elizabeth (as she hasn't done much in previous episodes) and some nice sparring between Rodney and John. It was touching when she was talking to everyone. The only bad piint i would say with the episode was that it once again showed that there is little use for Ford and often Teyla.

It was nice to see a bit more of the Ancients, though the only question it left me with was that the chinese woman must have realised that Janus had left Elizabeth as, if memory serves correctly, she was the one who left the message about why they had abandoned the city. If they thought no one would ever come, why would they leave the message?

My only other thing I noted (and this only comes up because I watched Enigma today) was that the high council of the Ancients reminded me of the Tollan, which may implicitly suggest why the Ancients are now "No interference in human affairs."

I'm gonna give this a 9/10 as it was a lovely episode that had a lot of human emotion, brought us some back story and some good character development.

Anubis
January 25th, 2005, 02:27 PM
I liked this episode, though it's not my fav. I think it tied in well with 'It's Good to be King'. :)

Seems in the past, things were a wee bit different. ;) With all the different city changes, flooding, etc. Though I liked the general idea of the ep -- and I look forward to seeing what else Atlantis has to offer. :)

Ancients Rising
January 26th, 2005, 07:08 AM
Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful

Best episode of the season so far, better than Rising

Janus is the man. What a legend :D

Matt G
January 26th, 2005, 11:20 AM
OK...

1. There's at leat one guy around online who would have said that this ep destroyed the last 10000 years of time, looping between the timeline where the Expedition drowned and the timeline the show is set in. I personally prefer the multiverse theory.

2. Interesting how the two Weir's wre slightly different.

Elite Anubis Guard
January 26th, 2005, 11:22 AM
this was one hell of an episode, i loved the scenes with the gateroom flooding and the whole story behind the episode was excellent really interesting and resulted in me geeking out in a convo bout multiple branching universes.

I love the insight into how the ancients arent all the same and its good janus built a second machine.

The whole dialogue between mckay and sheppard about who died best was great though, loved it and the references to Back to the future!

lucylou
January 26th, 2005, 12:03 PM
I adored this episode! It was amazing on so many levels and has now taken position as my favourite episode of the series so far.

I loved the emotional storyline of it all and the intensity of it. I loved watching what happened when the Atlantis mission originally went wrong. It was heartbreaking seeing what happened to the characters we have all grown to love and to see the reactions each of them had to learning about their orignal fate particularly McKay. He was so shocked to learn how he died trying to save others and I think that was a wonderful moment.

The actors all did such an amazing job in the episode. Beckett was sweet, John and McKay were hilarious with their arguing about who died more heroically. Joe and David really play off each other amazingly well and I love the scenes that they share. David Hewlett portrayed so much emotion in the scene where McKay discovered how he died and that has to be one of my favourite parts.

In my opinion Torri Higginson was totally incredible in this episode and did some of the best acting in the series here. Seeing her portrayl of the two Elizabeths was just wonderful to watch. She managed to portray them with subtle differences and yet still make them the same person and she played both with such sensitivity and so much emotion. I loved the scenes where the two Elizabeths interacted, particularly the one where the older version of Elizabeth was telling her younger self to not be so hard on herself and to live her life. I loved that scene. I loved the insight that it gave into Elizabeth and the insight which the whole episode gave us into her character. I think it was a well written and incredibly well acted episode with a great storyline and I really hope that after this Torri gets some more amazing episodes as the show carrys on.

Lucy

Whistler
January 26th, 2005, 12:36 PM
I loved John's constant referances to Back to the Future, those was the best parts of the episode for me.

Shep: "Not to mention a really nice Delorean."
McKay: "Seriously, don't get me started on that movie."
Shep: "Hey, I liked that Movie!"

Matt G
January 26th, 2005, 02:37 PM
One more thing - at one point McKay claims that time travel is only theoretically possible but it's clear from earlier eps that he's read up on SG1 mission reports. That being the case, how come he didn't know about SG1's trip to 1969?

Overal a good ep - that scene with the gateroom flooding and everything being new to the characters in a complete cackstorm was very good indeed.

Funkmeister
January 27th, 2005, 08:12 PM
One more thing - at one point McKay claims that time travel is only theoretically possible but it's clear from earlier eps that he's read up on SG1 mission reports. That being the case, how come he didn't know about SG1's trip to 1969?

I'd assume that the SG1 mission reports will have been read heavily by many atlantis crew members. After all, if i were sending a crew off to another galaxy, possibly with no way back, I'd give them all the help they could get, including critical info.

But as we know, mckay is quite an arrogant guy who likes to be right, and may overlook the empirical in favour of what he sees as being right.

I'll admit I haven't read all the stuff on this thread, but it's a very good Weir episode. And you get to see mckay's "Hero under pressure" thing.

WormholeAlien
February 11th, 2005, 12:54 PM
I don't really like episodes without much action, but I really liked this episode. I thought the writers did a brilliant job.

Cronus
February 12th, 2005, 04:59 AM
I don't know if this has been talked about, but if the ancient scientist Janus (sp?) closed all incoming wormwholes except from Earth, how do the team redial Atlantis from other places in the Pegasus Galaxy?

Was it so that as soon as a wormwhole was established with Earth then this failsafe would stop?

No-one in the show seem to have even questioned it, so has this failsafe simply dissappeared with the team's arrival?

Thek
February 14th, 2005, 03:21 PM
I have a question, why must the Ancients in Atlantis and the plague happen before or after each other? Why not at the same time, roughly.

Okay, so say some of the Ancients want to go exploring what they haven't discovered yet and catch a flying city and others decide to remain behind. A decade later or two, the Plague hits and the Ancients in the Milky Way galaxy are almost wiped out and they get message to the Atlantis Ancients not to come back.
They loose touch and paths diverge. The Milky Way Ancients eventually either ascend in order to escape the plague or somehow survive and evolve into us. (eer...maybe.)

The Atlantis Ancients populate the Pegasus galaxy and then get into an all out battle with the Wraith.

Back in Milky Way, us humans live primately because for some reason or another, we don't get to keep the really cool all-powerful weapons. Ra arrives in Egypt, and thus enslaves humanity.

The Atlantis Ancients find themselves loosing against the Wraith and decide to go back to the Milky Way, assuming since its been millions of years since the warning of the Plague, they assume it safe.

The come back to Earth to discover that the Gao'uld have enslaved their descendents. They're pissed. They fight back.

For the next thousands of years, they find themselves in another war against another enemy. However this time, they meet other advance races that have evolved technological and biological in the millions of years since they've been gone.

Oh, and then they ascend as well.

Okay, not actually the most well-thoughtout idea I've had, but I don't see the evidence that says that the Atlantis trip and the Plague happened linearly or whatever.

Bobthespirit
February 18th, 2005, 06:53 PM
I'm so glad they explained why the Ancients lost.

There's still one missing piece though. If the wraithe were that numerous in the past, why aren't they that numerous now? I know about the 60 hive ships and such, but even knowing that they seem to have much less now than before. Maybe they started starving and dying out or something. I'd really like that explained, because if there were as many wraithe then as there are now, I don't buy that Atlantis isn't blown up yet.

I hope they don't overuse time travel. First It's Good To Be King, now this, and then Moebius. Star Trek overused time travel and it made me totally board of it.

One of the original things that gave Stargate charm is that they had modern-day technology mostly. Now they have everything they have in Star Trek, and if they get easy access to time travel, it will be lame. They do have that ship in It's Good To Be King back in the Milky Way.

Bobthespirit
February 18th, 2005, 06:55 PM
Oh, by the way, is it obvious to anyone else that this friend of Weir's is *responsible* for the pillar in It's Good To Be King?

Major Fischer
February 18th, 2005, 06:55 PM
I hope they don't overuse time travel. First It's Good To Be King, now this, and then Moebius. Star Trek overused time travel and it made me totally board of it.

Well, truely Before I Sleep, It's Good to Be King, and Moebius are all ONE time travel arc.

greytop
February 18th, 2005, 07:04 PM
The make-up on Tori was very good. I like this episode.

Too bad it did not show the hologram lady making the hologram. She had to believe Weir to make that for the second time through the gate.

*for me only: Post 1500*

Bobthespirit
February 18th, 2005, 07:22 PM
The multiverse theory for time travel never made sense to me. I agree, it conveniently solves continuity problems in science fiction, but I want to hear somebody who's actually well educated in modern quantum theory tell me that it's plausible and likely that whenever you go back in time you create an alternate universe.

Cinephilic TV Addict
February 18th, 2005, 07:27 PM
it was a good episode - the bad part was in the third-fourth of the episode - yes, i break it into fourths, sometimes more, sometimes less. There was a bad part when weir was first introduced to the ancients around the table - that whole part, from end of commercial to beginning of the next one, was not well done. But the rest was good television.

ShadowMaat
February 18th, 2005, 07:29 PM
I'd like to know more about Shep and Zelenka being killed and Weir being more or less OK. There was that vague "once I recovered" thing, but for someone who survived a ship falling out of orbit and crashing into the ocean, she looked remarkably good.

And while the Ancient technology is no doubt excellent, shouldn't something have shown up on the X-rays 10,000 years later? Some indication of previous trauma? Or maybe the Ancients are that good. ;) Or maybe Beckett didn't bother with X-rays.

I know crashes like that happen, but it just seems too convenient. I'd have preferred one or both of them initially surviving, but then dying from their injuries or something.

This was a great ep, though. Very thoughtful and well put together. I still have trouble remembering that the exterior shots of Atlantis are all CGI, it looks so real in some scenes. :)

And poor Sumner, no matter what happens, he still dies. hehe. Of course, so does almost everyone else, but it still amuses me. :D

Thek
February 18th, 2005, 07:46 PM
The scene where the water was rising to above in the Stargate with McKay standing there...that was a very cool scene and the water would be beautiful if it wasn't for the fact it was going to kill several people real soon.

That episode had me in tears.

Janus was fun.

Major Fischer
February 18th, 2005, 07:49 PM
I think I was particularly stuck by three things in this epsiode.

A) Most overwelmingly the sheer tour de force that was Torri Higginson. Both Elizabi were had strength and humor, related well not only to others in the room, but also with herself in the split screen. I think the thing I most enjoyed was how much Old!Weir seemed to just enjoy the Rodney/John banter.

B) It was funny when everyone kept talking about how weird/bizare/creepy it was, but most of them seem to be talking about it to Elizabeth, who certainly had more of a right to be weirded than they did.

C) With Shadow, the exterior CGI is always amazing, I think the most striking shot of the series so far though is when she was spreding the ashes.

ShadowMaat
February 18th, 2005, 07:53 PM
Yay to Rodney the Hero, once again proving he isn't the selfish ass some seem to think he is. ...Well, he IS, sometimes, but he can actually get over himself when he has to. ;)

I wonder about the people in the other jumper. It's implied that they all died, but isn't it possible they could have escaped? If someone with the Ancient gene was onboard and if McKay managed to get the hatch open (or they blasted their way out), the could have survived... right? Not that it'd have done them much good, a handful of people stranded on an alien world with no stargate and no means of long-term survival... Hmm... might be better if they DID just die.

What a horrible way to go, though. Drowning is near the bottom of my list of ways I'd want to die, along with a plane crashes and wasting diseases. If I have to die, make it sudden and painless, I say.

Blue Banrigh
February 18th, 2005, 08:05 PM
I liked the way they filmed the Elizabi (:D love the plural) scenes. With the video screen with the old Elizabeth reacting in the background. Makes it a little bit different.

greytop
February 18th, 2005, 08:12 PM
I did wish they showed Elizabeth coming out of stasis to rotate the ZPMs and how much she changed each time.

Athenaktt
February 18th, 2005, 08:14 PM
I liked the way they filmed the Elizabi (:D love the plural) scenes. With the video screen with the old Elizabeth reacting in the background. Makes it a little bit different.
I was about to say that! but you beat me too it! Blue!

Merlin7
February 18th, 2005, 09:02 PM
Not my fave ep. The info was interesting. The concept. Loved the McSHEP. Loved Shep's reaction that Sumner drowned the first time.

The makeup was well done, and I really liked Janus.

LordAnubis
February 18th, 2005, 09:36 PM
First, I loved this episode. I normally hate time travel episodes, but this one was believable, concise, and well done. I think Torri did a great job playing the old Dr. Weir. I loved the interaction between the actors, the Ancient Council, and Janus.

However, I have some questions that maybe one of you can answer.

1) The Ancient Council told Dr. Weir that they were going back to Earth. It was established that Dr. Weir went back into time 10,000 years. Ra discovered Earth around 10,000 to 11,000 years ago. The Ancients would not be going back to the Antarctic gate, would they? Or would they go to the Egypt gate that Ra brought? They wouldn't know about the Egypt Gate or the Goa'uld. Why wouldn't Dr. Weir tell them about the Goa'uld or the new gate?

2) Why did the Ancients head back to Earth without Puddlejumpers or other supplies? They went back with backpacks and little else. Isn't that foolish?

3) The old Dr. Weir reported to SGA that the Ancients told her of the Wraith, who possessed powers and "technology" that rivaled the Ancients. Here again is confirmation that Wraith are fairly close to the Ancients technologically.

What are your thoughts?
:o

MrBojangles
February 18th, 2005, 09:50 PM
C) With Shadow, the exterior CGI is always amazing, I think the most striking shot of the series so far though is when she was spreding the ashes.
I agree a hundred percent. That shot alone was amazing. The best CGI I've seen in a long time.

keshou
February 18th, 2005, 09:54 PM
I loved this episode. :cool:

Time travel can be such a cliche in scifi but when it's done this well it's such a great tool to inspire the imagination. From the first moment old Elizabeth woke up I was hooked on the story and the hour just flew by.

Weir - OMG I liked her in this. A lot. For the first time I felt she really belongs at Atlantis - she stepped forward to preserve the chances for the future Atlantis team and I really admired her in this one. She's also gradually losing the brittle manner she had in earlier episodes. I hope to see more of this Elizabeth in the future.

I really liked the little relationship moments that we had in the episode. McKay/Shep banter seems to be a staple of every episode now. And thank goodness McKay and Shep seemed back to normal after being awful in Sanctuary. Weir/Shep friendship moments were also nice. Carson's always fun to see. And more Zelenka! yay.

I still think the Ancients are kind of snooty. Oh well. Still enjoy getting more on the Ancient backstory.

Great makeup job on old Elizabeth. I wouldn't have known that was her if I hadn't been spoiled on the premise. Torri did a fabulous job playing both Weirs. I had tears in my eyes when she sprinkled old Elizabeth's ashes at the end. I love those balcony scenes and I think the CGI water shots are much better now. Especially liked the water rising in the gateroom and Atlantis flooded.

Nice job by new writer Carl Bender. I hope he's on board to write more episodes in S2. :)

..

Hyperspace
February 18th, 2005, 10:32 PM
Beautiful, poignant episode...amazing.

Draco_Astreus
February 18th, 2005, 11:50 PM
The multiverse theory for time travel never made sense to me. I agree, it conveniently solves continuity problems in science fiction, but I want to hear somebody who's actually well educated in modern quantum theory tell me that it's plausible and likely that whenever you go back in time you create an alternate universe.
OK well I've never ever posted here before, so hi everyone, but I read the threads here every now and then when I get a chance and felt the need to respond to this (BTW I thought this was a great ep!). I'm not exactly educated in modern quantum theory but being a long-time trekker, I've had a lot of experience with the various theories on time-travel (most of which have been used in trek at one point or another). This theory of creating alternate universes is actually the one I agree with the most out of all of them, so I think I can explain it pretty clearly.
Let's say you get in the time-travelling gateship ;), activate the time device thing, and go back into the past. Now see how you would normally think of this is that you actually go back into a time previous to the one you were on, within the same timeline, right? Well this isn't how it works, because think of if you did something there that changed the future in a way that wouldn't allow you to come back. In many time-travel scenarios, the timeline "resets itself" after things have been changed in the past. Now if this were true, the you that went back in time would be prevented from ever going back, so in the reset, the you that went back in time would be erased, but that would mean the timeline never reset itself. See? That doesn't work. Also, by going back in time, you defy the law of conservation of matter. You've removed matter from one point in time, and added matter to another point. So here's how it works: you can't travel through time. Instead, you travel to an alternate universe that you just created which is at a previous point in time from the one you were just in, but in all other ways the same (time has no meaning interdimensionally, in this theory). So, now you've actually moved from one universe to another. The total matter of everything hasn't changed. Now in this universe you do something to change the eventual outcome to whatever. Now, the catch is, what about the universe you were just in? This is the thing you might not realize, but that universe probably still exists. So in this case, everyone who died when Atlantis flooded is still dead, just not in the universe we're watching in this show. This explains how Wier was able to change the future, because where she came from she didn't actually change anything.

There I hope that makes sence, it's kinda freaky but there ya go. :)

Oh and I'd like to say that I really liked the flooding control room scene too. Some of the best fx I've seen yet in this ep. :cool:

Giantevilhead
February 19th, 2005, 04:51 AM
It's stupid how Sheppard and Zelenka didn't survive since the Ancients have the power to bring people back from the dead.

ShadowMaat
February 19th, 2005, 07:09 AM
As far as time travel goes, I know there's a lot of stuff out there, some which support the multiverse theory and some which strongly deny it.

The multiverse theory would be like taking a particle and making an exact copy of it (representing travel back in time). Now, as soon as you have two of the same particle, things are going to start changing. Minute variations and the general effects of the universe at large will affect each particle differently (welcome to chaos theory). Over time, those particles will become increasingly different, but they're still essentially the same particle. I dunno how well that theory holds up, though. I only have a tenuous grasp on the whole quantim mechanics thing. It could be more like taking a portion of the particle and splitting it off from the whole, but then I think theory dictates that they should keep vibrating on the same wavelength and thus be connected no matter how far apart (temporally or geographically) they are. Anyway, the point is, you now have two separate universes, which (as someone else just said above me) explains how McKay and company can be dead in one reality and alive in another. Both are equally true.

The singleverse theory implies that by going back in time, you affect things and thus collapse the wave-form that was your future, making it impossible to return. It gets very paradoxical because if that future doesn't exist, how can you go back in time? But while the wave-form of the future may not exist anymore, you idelibly do and you've now become a part of the NOW in the past. Which is either really simple or impossibly complex. ;)

Feel free to poke holes in my guesswork. Between my incomplete understanding and the fact that I'm drugged to the gills on cold medicine, it's very likely that I'm completely wrong on all counts. But that's my current understanding of things and if someone knows more about it, I'd love to learn. :) I know there's stuff about waves being particles which ties into Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, but I'm not sure how it ties in, unless it has to do with observation (which would probably involve the whole cat-in-a-box thing).

Anyway, it's making my head hurt, so I'm gonna go get more orange juice and wander off to fluffier subjects. ;)

Shivan
February 19th, 2005, 07:16 AM
I enjoyed this episode! I enjoyed SG:1 much more but still. Last night was a Stargate night for BOTH episodes.

What more can I say?

Bobthespirit
February 19th, 2005, 07:28 AM
I'd like to know more about Shep and Zelenka being killed and Weir being more or less OK. There was that vague "once I recovered" thing, but for someone who survived a ship falling out of orbit and crashing into the ocean, she looked remarkably good.

The ancients can heal you by touching you and concentrating real hard, remember?

Bobthespirit
February 19th, 2005, 07:36 AM
OK well I've never ever posted here before, so hi everyone, but I read the threads here every now and then when I get a chance and felt the need to respond to this (BTW I thought this was a great ep!). I'm not exactly educated in modern quantum theory but being a long-time trekker, I've had a lot of experience with the various theories on time-travel (most of which have been used in trek at one point or another). This theory of creating alternate universes is actually the one I agree with the most out of all of them, so I think I can explain it pretty clearly.
Let's say you get in the time-travelling gateship ;), activate the time device thing, and go back into the past. Now see how you would normally think of this is that you actually go back into a time previous to the one you were on, within the same timeline, right? Well this isn't how it works, because think of if you did something there that changed the future in a way that wouldn't allow you to come back. In many time-travel scenarios, the timeline "resets itself" after things have been changed in the past. Now if this were true, the you that went back in time would be prevented from ever going back, so in the reset, the you that went back in time would be erased, but that would mean the timeline never reset itself. See? That doesn't work. Also, by going back in time, you defy the law of conservation of matter. You've removed matter from one point in time, and added matter to another point. So here's how it works: you can't travel through time. Instead, you travel to an alternate universe that you just created which is at a previous point in time from the one you were just in, but in all other ways the same (time has no meaning interdimensionally, in this theory). So, now you've actually moved from one universe to another. The total matter of everything hasn't changed. Now in this universe you do something to change the eventual outcome to whatever. Now, the catch is, what about the universe you were just in? This is the thing you might not realize, but that universe probably still exists. So in this case, everyone who died when Atlantis flooded is still dead, just not in the universe we're watching in this show. This explains how Wier was able to change the future, because where she came from she didn't actually change anything.

There I hope that makes sence, it's kinda freaky but there ya go. :)

Oh and I'd like to say that I really liked the flooding control room scene too. Some of the best fx I've seen yet in this ep. :cool:


But...that's an argument that the conventional idea of time travel -- travelling through time in the same universe, wouldn't work (And I could actually justify that if I tried hard enough).

It isn't an argument for the multi-universe time travel thing to be likely to happen, in real life. It seems just like a creative idea that *would* solve these problems with time travel, *if* it were true. I want to hear like a grad student in quantum physics tell me that this is the direct conclusion from current theory and evidence.

buckner
February 19th, 2005, 07:43 AM
Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, I have read about half of this thread. Atlantis was under water and that the PJ out of atlantis into space so can the PJ's travel under water?

ShadowMaat
February 19th, 2005, 07:46 AM
Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, I have read about half of this thread. Atlantis was under water and that the PJ out of atlantis into space so can the PJ's travel under water?
It has to do with the movement of celestial bodies. Specifically planets. The PJ didn't move in space, just time. The location of the landing bay in OUR time wouldn't necessarily match with the location of the landing bay 10,000 years ago. All it takes is the planet moving a little bit and suddenly you aren't underwater, you're in space! :D

buckner
February 19th, 2005, 07:51 AM
But they were still trying to get the other PJ's out of the hanger bay. Plus the transport ship was trying to get past the wraith blockade so did it depart from atlantis? Or somewhere else on land.

ShadowMaat
February 19th, 2005, 07:59 AM
But they were still trying to get the other PJ's out of the hanger bay. Plus the transport ship was trying to get past the wraith blockade so did it depart from atlantis? Or somewhere else on land.
Ahhhh. OK. I'd guess that they MUST be able to travel underwater. As Shep said, they have to be airtight to be spaceworthy and water is just really thick space, right? ;)

Also, the death gliders in Descent were able to "fly" underwater, so I guess there's a precedent... of sorts...