PDA

View Full Version : The Defiant One (112)



Pages : 1 [2]

Major Tyler
June 4th, 2005, 09:31 AM
Shep displayed some nice tactical thought in that episode (finally!!!). Still there's always ways to nitpick. He was a moron for not keeping a steady rate of fire up when the wraith guy was down to keep him on the defensive, before shoving a Wraith Grenade sandwhich into his mouth...:DHard to maintain a steady rate of fire when you've got limited ammunition. Seems the wiser course would be to preserve what ammo you have for when you really need it.

What would have been really smart is if they carried the FN 5-7 pistol as a sidearm rather than a Beretta. That way he could use the 5.7 mm rounds from his damaged P90 (and from any P90 magazines he had left) to reload his pistol. It's tactically ridiculous to carry a sidearm that requires a different round than your primary weapon.

Panther
June 4th, 2005, 09:06 PM
Steady doesn't mean fully automatic. Tap out quick shots in semi-automatic mode or regular bursts. Gotta wonder though how the wraith figured out that on a beretta, you a) remove the saftey catch b)rake the slide (you don't store a gun loaded, only carry one) c)then pull the trigger. I'd've through that he would have removed the slide catch, and stripped the damn thing first.

Also, not totally rediculous. One can carry an MP5 but have 1911 instead...

SGRanger06
June 4th, 2005, 10:43 PM
That'd would of been so funny he picks it up, then the gun falls apart "do'h!" lol.

SGalisa
June 5th, 2005, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Panther:
Shep displayed some nice tactical thought in that episode (finally!!!). Still there's always ways to nitpick. He was a moron for not keeping a steady rate of fire up when the wraith guy was down to keep him on the defensive, before shoving a Wraith Grenade sandwhich into his mouth...Sounds like this is more of an action driven solution, than a character based one (which is also atypical of most playstation/x-box, etc. games).

Question: is Atlantis
1) a character driven series, or
2) action, or
3) both (when needed to be)?

I thought suggestion # 3 mostly applied (to both Atlantis and SG-1).
========

By now, I'm getting the impression most of the blow it up now, etc. (Panther's) ideas are for quick, fast endings to *any* crisis (e.g. the Storm). That's also a fast way to kill a plot, as well, unless there's something better and more "A-maz-ing" for an encore during the plot's peak (that is: the most critical moment in the story). Waste all the ammo at once, and then run for your life when out of options. Those are Not good military tactics - especially when the enemy has the greater advantages.

Shep was locked out of the puddle jumper.
He had no way of restocking up on supplies, ammo AND food.
He had no idea if there was just one wraith.
He needed a back-up plan for the long haul, just in case...

So, if Sheppard wasted all his ammo in the beginning, especially when the Wraith popped back up (healed super fast), what happens when Mr. Wraith pretends to play dead, and grabs Shep at the worst moment (after setting the bomb to start ticking). Shep can't escape... or is that the whole *purpose* of these (eeeeevil) type of thoughts... to kill off Shep?! :eek:


Originally posted by Major Tyler:
It's tactically ridiculous to carry a sidearm that requires a different round than your primary weapon.awww, but where would the *fun* / *anticipation* be in suspenseful timing, if he didn't have to look for reloading one weapon or the other? :D

Panther
June 5th, 2005, 06:31 PM
Sounds like this is more of an action driven solution...

What hell do you think is the military about? :eek:
You find the most effecient and quick solution to the problem.
Shep is supposed to be a military (granted a rotorhead) man. He should think like that. It just means the writers will have to be a little more creative... maybe the wraith ambushed him rather than Sheppard. I'd believe that, as he has no patrolling or counter-ambush training...

SGalisa
June 10th, 2005, 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by SGalisa:
Sounds like this is more of an action driven solution...


Originally posted by Panther:
What h*** do you think is the military about? :eek:
You find the most effecient and quick solution to the problem.you'll also find that being the quickest way to kill a plot which was (probably) most likely more intended for suspense. *Action* isn't always sheer military might... it can be composed of suspenseful other things also known as (episodic) suspense tactics ~ which THE DEFIANT ONE was; unless we're thinking on two different levels here (which is entirely possible).

Speaking in hypotheticals... if Shep ambushed and destroyed the Wraith as suggested in the beginning, what happens to the rest of the 20 or 30 minutes of plot...? It's not needed.

I rewatched the story and took notes:

When the Wraith went down and out the first time, as Sheppard cautiously walked up to the creature, he did start to shoot periodically, but just before he reached the Wraith, the Wraith jumped up and started shooting at Sheppard. Sheppard began furiously shooting with the remaining bullets in his P-90, but in the interim got shot in the arm and retreated because he got hit, but continued shooting until his P-90 ran out of ammo... The Wraith also ran out of bullets in the gun he stole from the jumper. So, during the time-out: Shep tended to cover his wound and then studied the wraith ordinance grenade, etc., as an alternate plan.


Originally posted by Panther:
maybe the wraith ambushed him rather than Sheppard...The Wraith *did* ambush Sheppard.
I think *that* was the point of that entire encounter.
The Wraith (Greg) turned the forcefield on and had control of the remote.

I'm guessing the only reason why Gaul, the scientist guy, had the remote was just in case Shep got captured, it was in someone else's hands who was probably the least likely to get chased. As a result, Gaul went down and the remote got stolen. Smart Wraith.

Shep tried to distract the Wraith by luring him away from the jumper, after their first encounter went bad for Shep. Shep got bopped hard, when he plowed right into the forcefield. He also realized at that moment that he had very limited supplies and no shelter protection from the approaching cold nights. More strikes were against Sheppard, than were with him.

What the scenario also did for viewers who didn't know: was show how difficult it was to blow this particular Wraith completely away (a 10,000 year old Wraith's strength is possibly proportional to its feeding). Only the ancient drone did the most effective job... and hopefully the little pieces didn't attempt to miraculously merge together again.... ;)


maybe the wraith ambushed him rather than Sheppard. I'd believe that, as he has no patrolling or counter-ambush training...Now, that could be an interesting point ~ perhaps worth exploring or expanding upon for future eps... train or reveal Shep's counter-ambush techniques, but do it sparingly - lest viewers start complaining of Sheppard being a flawless super-hero who *never* gets hurt.
========

different area of "The Defiant One" episode, near the beginning: :)
Outside of the "Sanctuary" episode, McKay proved yet again his obsession with Captain James T. Kirk.

Shep: (upset) "...He's aboard my ship!!"
McKay: (nasty-like) "What are you Captain Kirk?!"

...maybe this is a precursor to all the "Kirk" comments in Sanctuary.

Seriously, me definitely thinks Rodney has a serious "Kirkitis" syndrome... but the more obvious question is "why?" what caused it? (I'm thinking it was something that happened back in his childhood...! maybe not for the better, somehow.)

So far, Shep's been quite quiet on the issue. I don't think Shep was ever into watching Star Trek on the level McKay did... just a gut feeling POV. :D

Panther
June 10th, 2005, 05:43 PM
you'll also find that being the quickest way to kill a plot which was (probably) most likely more intended for suspense. *Action* isn't always sheer military might... it can be composed of suspenseful other things also known as (episodic) suspense tactics ~ which THE DEFIANT ONE was; unless we're thinking on two different levels here (which is entirely possible).

Speaking in hypotheticals... if Shep ambushed and destroyed the Wraith as suggested in the beginning, what happens to the rest of the 20 or 30 minutes of plot...? It's not needed.

Again, writers need to be a little more creative...
Tom Clancy does it ALL the time in his books. Hise stories are both character and action driven.



I rewatched the story and took notes:

When the Wraith went down and out the first time, as Sheppard cautiously walked up to the creature, he did start to shoot periodically, but just before he reached the Wraith, the Wraith jumped up and started shooting at Sheppard. Sheppard began furiously shooting with the remaining bullets in his P-90, but in the interim got shot in the arm and retreated because he got hit, but continued shooting until his P-90 ran out of ammo... The Wraith also ran out of bullets in the gun he stole from the jumper. So, during the time-out: Shep tended to cover his wound and then studied the wraith ordinance grenade, etc., as an alternate plan.

No, he moved slowly, shot once and kept moving. He didn't keep up steady fire as he was advancing. I'm talking bursts a second or so apart. Secondly, when Sheppard got shot by the Wraith I fell off my couch and burst out laughing. The amount of time he had, as 1. "Greg" first had to swing his torso up and 2. aim and fire, in CQB time was plenty not to mention he already had drawn a bead or Greg.

Secondly, the dumbass figured out that the grenades go boom after he got pounded by Greg. Of course, Sun Tzu's words were lost on him, "Know thyself". If he had know what they did, then could he could have made his plan to make Greg eat a grenade sandwhich.

SGalisa
June 12th, 2005, 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by SGalisa:
I rewatched the story and took notes...

Originally posted by Panther:
No, he moved slowly, shot once and kept moving.correction: As Sheppard moved cautiously towards the Wraith, he fired 2 shots, which is both clearly audible and visible. As I said, I took notes. Even went back and re-played it over about ten times just to be sure.

Only difference this time, being that when "Greg" grabbed the gun and jumped up, I think Shep started shooting non-stop first, and Greg went all gun happy, and apparently hit the P-90 and jammed it at the same time another bullet hit Shep in the arm. After Sheppard retreated for cover, that's when he realized the P-90 was no longer shooting bullets.

Shortly later, he checked it again, which tells even a non-military person the P-90 probably majorly jammed or broken. It didn't look broken, but the feel was obviously there. Sheppard did not tell McKay that he ran out of ammo, but that his P-90 was "out of commission".


Originally posted by Panther:
...figured out that the grenades go boom after he got pounded by Greg. ...If he had know what they did, then could he could have made his plan to make Greg eat a grenade sandwhich.The 2nd Wraith grenade that "Greg" tripped (Shep set it up as a mine), blew up in (close proximity of) Greg's face. Not much damage. Only the drone completely obliterated Greg.

As Shep also noted to McKay, he's seen Wraith go down with less bullets, and there was "something different" with this particular Wraith. Be it a recent feeding or something else, is still yet to be seen (future plot set-up). Reason for keeping the Wraith around as long as TPTB did, instead of packing a grenade *directly* in his mouth.
========
Hypothetically, if going with the pack the grenade in the mouth scenario... once AGAIN, and if the wraith wakes up, while shoving that thing in there and grabs your arm? (Shep's arm in this case... it'd be bye-bye Shep, too!)

Greg might still survive, if whatever his nanobots are -heal him again. But Shep would be gone. Not enough time to ascend either maybe, so he'd most likely be GONE forever.

Panther
June 13th, 2005, 01:35 AM
correction: As Sheppard moved cautiously towards the Wraith, he fired 2 shots, which is both clearly audible and visible. As I said, I took notes. Even went back and re-played it over about ten times just to be sure.

Only difference this time, being that when "Greg" grabbed the gun and jumped up, I think Shep started shooting non-stop first, and Greg went all gun happy, and apparently hit the P-90 and jammed it at the same time another bullet hit Shep in the arm. After Sheppard retreated for cover, that's when he realized the P-90 was no longer shooting bullets.


So he's even slower than I though. Greg had to grab and jump up. Come on! That's plenty of time for a second burst.

Secondly, I said "grenade sandwich", meaning arm the grenade, and shove it down his mouth. Then his head would have been blown to bits...

knocknashee
June 13th, 2005, 02:48 PM
Quelle surprise...Panther is ragging on Sheppard - again... :rolleyes:

Wouldn't stuffing a grenade down the Wraith's throat have cut the episode a little short???

TechnoWraith
June 13th, 2005, 03:11 PM
Secondly, I said "grenade sandwich", meaning arm the grenade, and shove it down his mouth.

You gotta get it there first. And good luck trying. ;) :D

Don't know about you, but i'd put up a heck of a fight if someone tried stuffing a grenade down my throat.

Panther
June 13th, 2005, 03:53 PM
That's why you keep him busy by shooting. He'll KO'ed healing himself, while your doing all that. Then when your done, put some more in for good measure... and watch the fireworks display. Frankly, I don't care if would have cut the episode short. It's a cheap device to make a character stupid.

TechnoWraith
June 13th, 2005, 03:55 PM
It's a cheap device to make a character stupid.

I don't think Greg (the Wraith) is stupid. Or were you referring to some other character?

Panther
June 13th, 2005, 03:59 PM
Shep.

TechnoWraith
June 13th, 2005, 04:03 PM
Shep.

oh. Okies. Try not to knock Greg too much, he's cool. ;)

Shep, on the other hand. Let's just say no comment because the Shep shippers will hang me if i say what i was gonna say. ;)

knocknashee
June 13th, 2005, 04:19 PM
oh. Okies. Try not to knock Greg too much, he's cool. ;)

Shep, on the other hand. Let's just say no comment because the Shep shippers will hang me if i say what i was gonna say. ;)

I only do hangings of a Friday... :p

Dependant on what you say, I could make an exception... ;)

Panther
June 13th, 2005, 06:24 PM
Sad...

PsychoPenguin
June 14th, 2005, 09:47 AM
That's why you keep him busy by shooting. He'll KO'ed healing himself, while your doing all that. Then when your done, put some more in for good measure... and watch the fireworks display. Frankly, I don't care if would have cut the episode short. It's a cheap device to make a character stupid.

Hmmm...coming in late to this discussion, but I just wanted to say that I don't think the character is meant to look stupid. Rather, the fact that he doesn't handle the on-ground fight as efficiently as he could is more likely meant to ring true, or in other words point out something many Air Force personnel often say about "Stargate":

Pilots are NOT trained to fight in ground-to-ground maneuvers. They're trained to FLY. And maybe jump *out* of airplanes, if they have jump wings. But NOT much else.

In other words, they *shouldn't* be good at gunbattles. The bulk of their training is designed to make them useful in one element: *in the air.*

Now granted, they do go through survival training and some of them have the option of joining other military divisions that *are* focused on ground ops. For instance, Jack is special ops, and the SOG guys *do* go through additional training to prepare them for the things Jack could do. Also, my husband, who's been a martial artist since he was a kid, was invited to train as part of an Army recondo course while he was at the Academy, and seriously contemplated signing across branch lines to join the Navy Seals. (He ended up becoming OSI, who if you're wondering, are the group of guys focused on finding terrorists out to get the Air Force. Khobar Towers back in 1996 happened because the Air Force commander didn't listen to his local OSI guy. They also conduct personal security details for Air Force higher-ups and perform upper-level criminal investigations concerning the Air Force, much like the FBI do.

Or to simplify: They're the Air Force equivalent of "NCIS." As much as I hate to reference that show because it's *so* out of touch with reality.)

However, somebody like Sheppard, who's focused on flying, probably didn't receive anything past survival training and probably isn't that prepared for some of the things he's had to do since arriving in Atlantis. Thus, I *like* that he's not as effective as Jack. It keeps me from looking at this show and having my sense of disbelief completely blown away.

Although I did cringe when he just stood there at one point and got the crap slapped out of him. I'm not that advanced in my own martial arts education and I'm sitting there thinking, "Drop back. Drop back. For the love of god...drop back!" :D

Panther
June 14th, 2005, 03:21 PM
Well I've been arguing that too. Just not vehemently enough. Then the question comes up why oh why, is a rotorhead leading a ground operation, when there are those who are trained to do so. Perhaps if Sumner were around he could have kicked his butt into shape.

PsychoPenguin
June 14th, 2005, 04:49 PM
Well, as for why John's in charge despite not being a groundpounder, that I can understand. I'm assuming that the SGC functions like a joint task force, where rank matters more than branch. My husband's taken orders from a Marine before in a similar situation. He tells people it was a really enjoyable working experience. (He may have gone through pilot training, but with the job he chose, he has more in common with up-close fighters than he does with propheads.) :)

Also, pilots often end up in command positions, despite not having done anything else other than flying. It's the fasttrack to promotion in the Air Force, being a flier.

So in the real world, Shep could very well be in charge. He just needs to show some wisdom (Read: outclass some of his real world counterparts) and listen to those whose experience and training are different from his. :)

Panther
June 14th, 2005, 07:27 PM
It's assume the SGC would have special requirements even a transfer of specialty from 11H to say 13D or 31P, and at the very least a rigorous training program.

PsychoPenguin
June 14th, 2005, 09:06 PM
It's assume the SGC would have special requirements even a transfer of specialty from 11H to say 13D or 31P, and at the very least a rigorous training program.

I may be breaking some sort of "board etiquette," but when you start pulling out MOS numbers, (which is something no *real* military type does except when they're having to fill out position paperwork) and I've noticed you seem to enjoy questioning the use of tactics on the show, so I gotta ask...

Are you *actually* military...or just a wannabe who gets a lot of bang for their buck out of their internet connection?

watcher652
June 15th, 2005, 04:54 PM
Then the question comes up why oh why, is a rotorhead leading a ground operation, when there are those who are trained to do so. Perhaps if Sumner were around he could have kicked his butt into shape.I think it's because Major Sheppard is the highest ranking military officer currently stationed in Atlantis since Sumner was killed. It's a joint operation, both military and scientific, with not only the US but with all the participating nations, although the US is the predominant force.

I would assume that whoever was highest ranking officer, of any branch, would be in charge. The next in rank Lt. Ford, who's a Marine and Sheppard's second in command.

Major Sheppard is forced to be the leader when all he was expecting to do was to follow orders and activate stuff. He wasn't involved with all the prep work in going to the new galaxy, so if at first he needs to brought up to speed, then he gets advice and we get some exposition. Not everyone here has been a devoted fan of SG1.

Of course, by now he's had a chance to review the mission reports so I don't think he'll need that much help. I thought Ford would have been a good one to give some of that exposition to Sheppard since it seems Ford was familiar with being offworld. But the show never did use Ford in that way.

Panther
June 15th, 2005, 05:09 PM
I'm a military enthusiast, and my first career choice was to be military, but unfortunately that could not be unified with the grandiose plans my parents had for me, so some words were said some things were done, and thus these days I'm trying to get my head around number theory....*sigh*

anyways that said the reason I used the MOSs, or more correctly AFSCs ;), was they're less keystrokes to write...

11H - > Helicopter Pilot
13D - > Combat Control
31P - > Security Forces.

See the difference?

PsychoPenguin
June 15th, 2005, 06:13 PM
I'm a military enthusiast, and my first career choice was to be military, but unfortunately that could not be unified with the grandiose plans my parents had for me, so some words were said some things were done, and thus these days I'm trying to get my head around number theory....*sigh*

anyways that said the reason I used the MOSs, or more correctly AFSCs ;), was they're less keystrokes to write...

11H - > Helicopter Pilot
13D - > Combat Control
31P - > Security Forces.

See the difference?

Ah, so you are a wannabe...

I could tell. People who just study and don't actually do always focus on the stuff that the people who actually do couldn't care less about. :D

Panther
June 15th, 2005, 07:26 PM
Yes, my knowledge is mostly academic, and from aquaintances in the service down here. That said, I do prefer to study tactics, weapons, force structures and logistics than the beauraucratic side of things, like if the guy is wearing the wrong ribbons and that kind of waste of time.

SGalisa
June 18th, 2005, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by knocknashee:
Wouldn't stuffing a grenade down the Wraith's throat have cut the episode a little short???yes. That's what I've been complaining about from the start. Thanks for the *reinforcement*... it helps! ;)


Originally posted by Panther:
Secondly, I said "grenade sandwich", meaning arm the grenade, and shove it down his mouth. Then his head would have been blown to bits...oh me of details, not detailed enough. I meant a *LIVE* grenade - already Armed and dangerous ...of course, anyone waltzing over there might be stupider to shove that thing in "Greg's" mouth while the wraith's arms and legs are still attached. :p

any disputes over this one... just remember the detached but crawling wraith arm in "Rising". The wraith got blown to bits and was still potentially lethal...! and nevermind what Dr. Beckett said about it being residual nerve reflexes.

As I've been saying:

refer to post # 258 by SGalisa:
once AGAIN, and if the wraith wakes up, while shoving that thing in there and grabs your arm? (Shep's arm in this case... it'd be bye-bye Shep, too!)

Greg might still survive, if whatever his nanobots are -heal him again. But Shep would be gone. Not enough time to ascend either maybe, so he'd most likely be GONE forever.if the above scenario played out, it'd be kaboom! Goodbye Shep, but not necessarily the Wraith.

maybe concentrating more on Ronon Dex in Season 2 might be more satisfying; tho, I doubt it. There seems to be a certain Jack O'Neill mentality in some viewers of blowing everything away if it's disagreeable, or not having enough bullets, or a powerful enough of a big honking gun. Jack's answer to nearly everything was to instantly "BLOW it away to smitherines!!" ...which also really goes against RDA's own POV on guns (it's been suggested or stated that he detests them with a *passion!*)... just proving how good he presents the opposing perspective as an actor. :)

Personally, I prefer to think of Sheppard as SG:Atlantis' stealth line of defense... not the FRONT line guy either forced to risk everything or showing off how gun-ho tote-ing he can be. Besides, maybe the reasons for Sheppard's extra cautious nature and hesitation was due to something that happened in his past, and residue of those experiences...

Besides, apparently season 2 is changing Shep's character direction anyway.
he gets wraithed ~ apparently in more ways than one.
whump! whump!agh!! worst case nightmare! :eek:


Originally posted by Panther:
I'm a military enthusiast, and my first career choice was to be military...


Originally posted by PsychoPenguin:
Ah, so you are a wannabe...

I could tell. People who just study and don't actually do always focus on the stuff that the people who actually do couldn't care less about. :D...and -excluding those who are retired- some of the more *mature* military guys simply just DO NOT talk about what they really do! They have a job to perform, and rank prestige (of carrying a honking gun and mega amount of bullets, etc.) isn't foremost on their mind, especially when their own life is in danger. Unless given permission from a higher command, Confidential info stays *confidential*. Especially for those in highly skilled special or black ops.

"...so, where is so-and-so? and what's s/he doing??"
..."ummm, somewhere on the planet ...doing the usual stuff. (duh! -implied)"

just a radio/TV news observation akin to some news people listeners/viewers with concerned consciences for the safety of those in *real-life* field work...

Panther
June 18th, 2005, 07:31 PM
oh me of details, not detailed enough. I meant a *LIVE* grenade - already Armed and dangerous ...of course, anyone waltzing over there might be stupider to shove that thing in "Greg's" mouth while the wraith's arms and legs are still attached. :p
It helps to have the bayonnet ready for a slash fest. It would work, he just has to be fast about it.


any disputes over this one... just remember the detached but crawling wraith arm in "Rising". The wraith got blown to bits and was still potentially lethal...! and nevermind what Dr. Beckett said about it being residual nerve reflexes.
It'd say that's a much better situation than a live freaking Wraith male on your hands.



As I've been saying:
if the above scenario played out, it'd be kaboom! Goodbye Shep, but not necessarily the Wraith.
Valid point, I just happen to differ.


maybe concentrating more on Ronon Dex in Season 2 might be more satisfying; tho, I doubt it. There seems to be a certain Jack O'Neill mentality in some viewers of blowing everything away if it's disagreeable, or not having enough bullets, or a powerful enough of a big honking gun. Jack's answer to nearly everything was to instantly "BLOW it away to smitherines!!" ...which also really goes against RDA's own POV on guns (it's been suggested or stated that he detests them with a *passion!*)... just proving how good he presents the opposing perspective as an actor. :)

Personally, I prefer to think of Sheppard as SG:Atlantis' stealth line of defense... not the FRONT line guy either forced to risk everything or showing off how gun-ho tote-ing he can be. Besides, maybe the reasons for Sheppard's extra cautious nature and hesitation was due to something that happened in his past, and residue of those experiences...

Besides, apparently season 2 is changing Shep's character direction anyway.
he gets wraithed ~ apparently in more ways than one.
whump! whump!agh!! worst case nightmare! :eek:

Yes, well let's not bring uniformed views (RDA's) into this. Last I checked , that's the way things are done in a battle...


...and -excluding those who are retired- some of the more *mature* military guys simply just DO NOT talk about what they really do! They have a job to perform, and rank prestige (of carrying a honking gun and mega amount of bullets, etc.) isn't foremost on their mind, especially when their own life is in danger. Unless given permission from a higher command, Confidential info stays *confidential*. Especially for those in highly skilled special or black ops.

"...so, where is so-and-so? and what's s/he doing??"
..."ummm, somewhere on the planet ...doing the usual stuff. (duh! -implied)"

just a radio/TV news observation akin to some news people listeners/viewers with concerned consciences for the safety of those in *real-life* field work...

Thank you for stating that obvious fact, of I have know for the past 3 years. You can't tell who's military and who isn't most of the time. They are after all ordinary people doing a job.

SGalisa
June 20th, 2005, 03:54 AM
This is SG:Atlantis' reason for why John didn't continue shooting all gun-ho crazy *before* his P-90 got jammed. While talking to McKay, Sheppard said:

"...I put at least 20 shots into him, plus a couple more for *good* measure...
I've seen Wraith go down and *stay down* with far less.
...this one's different somehow..."

Sheppard honestly believed or felt that was sufficient enough to *kill* Greg.

However, in hindsight ONLY, had he known just how *serious of an adversary* his 10,000 year old zombie guy was, Sheppard just *might* have shoved something even bigger than just a wraith grenade sandwich down its throat. I still see him exercising EXTREME caution upon approach and making certain the arms and legs were permanently immobilized, before planting any armed grenade down Greg's face.

As it was, one of his last resorts was a knife which he promptly skewered into Greg's squid-sucker hand. Not a permanent solution, but it might have slowed him down slightly as an inconvenience. Again, Sheppard didn't expect Greg's other arm to knock him flat out cold from being tossed 20 feet or so away, from just one swift arm swing. Greg definitely had the advantage in all directions, except up (FORD's P.J.). :D


Originally posted by PsychoPenguin:
Pilots are NOT trained to fight in ground-to-ground maneuvers. They're trained to FLY. And maybe jump *out* of airplanes, if they have jump wings. But NOT much else.

In other words, they *shouldn't* be good at gunbattles. The bulk of their training is designed to make them useful in one element: *in the air.*
...


Originally posted by Panther:
Perhaps if Sumner were around he could have kicked his butt into shape.So, what you're both sort of saying here is that without Sumner, Shep's special ops experience is basically *incomplete*. Instead, Shep has been learning on his own via the hard route... or else he's just given himself too much slack in his missions, due to potentially previous encounters weighing his conscience down.

If that's true, then aside from being put down a few pegs for insubordination, maybe that's why he got assigned to Antartica in the first place: Because he was too much of a danger *risk* (for whatever the reason) to everyone already elsewhere in the field. It was the only place his commanding officers would let him fly. Now he has an entire new galaxy to fly... provided he doesn't get
{permanently} wraithed! ;)

PS: spoiler tags noted, just in case; but... not intentially meant to apply to any particular ep... it's just having the *idea* of
Sheppard being chased or hunted by the wraith... any episode applies... :D Ooooooo!

Panther
June 20th, 2005, 03:19 PM
Aside from the fact that he probably wouldn't be the highest ranking officer anyways. Where was Sumners' XO and HQ staff? They'd outrank and outexperience Sheppard.

SGalisa
June 20th, 2005, 06:42 PM
Aside from the fact that he probably wouldn't be the highest ranking officer anyways. Where was Sumners' XO and HQ staff? They'd outrank and outexperience Sheppard.Apparently Sheppard was the next highest ranking officer in line next to Sumner. I think it was the "HOME" episode that mentioned it, by Dr. Weir. *Spoilers* might require me to state what she said exactly... but I'd have to go back look at the ep, and write the info down first before posting it here.

Why he was next in line? *Limited* (military) crew taken to Atlantis? Or else they all got clobbered in various eps. Haven't a clue and don't recall hearing anything about it. I don't think they were expecting to mount a war. Going to Atlantis was originally a science exploration, not a military encounter. So, any military personnel taken, would be a light crew on a just in case basis (and that's just a wild guess).

Sheppard basically went to Atlantis because of his ancient GENE ability (turn on ancient related stuff), not go into battle and fight creatures and peoples he's never heard of before. Same with McKay... McKay was sent for his scientific expertise - not to hold a gun and be Shep's back-up, when in danger.

Panther
June 20th, 2005, 07:05 PM
Yes, but since Atlantis needed a permanently depolyed military elemet. The commander thus needs to manage his operations at Atlantis. How the hell is he supposed to do that with no staff to speak of? While you've explained accurately what is the case in Atlantis, it is inaccurate in terms what would really happen. I'm sure the JCoS runs the US Military by himself too in your little world too?

SGalisa
June 25th, 2005, 11:33 AM
part 1 of 2...

Originally posted by Panther:
Yes, but since Atlantis needed a permanently depolyed military elemet. The commander thus needs to manage his operations at Atlantis. How the h*** is he supposed to do that with no staff to speak of?I think TPTB already know about the seriousness of the situation being short on military staff. Maybe the idea to underestimate the current outcome, and deliberately lean dangerously short on weapons supplies at times, was part of the original writing plan. I don't know. I'm not a SG writer. It certainly adds (enhances) to the anxiety levels of certain situations. Helpful as a production suspense technique; but not necessary if you want a quick ep done and over with ASAP. :D

Some of these *military* questions have already been answered in other topics, by other gw members.

Maybe it might be more beneficial to post military concerns, complaints or *FLAWS* under a topic that already exists elsewhere, or create one more to the direction of your preference.

I did the *crazy* thing by paging back over 71 pages on the General Discussion forum topics to find something that even remotely resembled close to what your asking. I also checked the entire Atlantis Season 2 forum for the same reason. Aside from the dozens of similar named wormhole, wraith, and whatnot topics, the closest I came to finding was a 3-paged topic titled:

"Stargate Military flaws" (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=3655) {...click on title in quotes for direct link to it.

It was started August 27th, 2004, and has 60 posts so far (was originally listed under The Gate Room > General Discussion area). Maybe if posting in there doesn't get lost in the hundreds of topics already in the forum, and if the overseers and moderators of the topic allow it, the "Stargate Military flaws" topic could be expanded to monitor the progress (if viewer's find it necessary) of SGA's science vs. military needs and expertise, etc., covering ALL seasonal journeys of the entire SGA series, under one topical roof. That's just a "Shep sandwich" specialty food for thought {alternative} suggestion. ;) :)

SGalisa
June 25th, 2005, 11:45 AM
continued: part 2 of 2...
On a more blended sci-fi / reality TV level, I think it is a *noble* gesture to desire Atlantis to become more militarized to the perfectionist degree "realistically." But the eps have put obstacles deliberately in the way to make that goal not so accessible. Could the reason be trillion dollar (plus) deficits blocking efficient financing and proper packaging for the *perfect* expedition to explore a potential ONE-way trip to another galaxy?

Doubt it, but realistically, I believe that $$$ amount in part might be stopping our real world from going forth exploring beyond our own solar system. That and a serious lack of space travel knowledge. :(


Originally posted by Panther:
While you've explained accurately what is the case in Atlantis, it is inaccurate in terms what would really happen.Stargate is not reality... it is more fantasy/sci-fi based, so anything can be set up to follow *any* structural order. That is the purpose of Science Fiction - to bend the rules, against what nit-picky dramatists and legalists consider the *norm*. If the show was based on some weird, way out galaxy and new names were given as substitutes for earth's various military structures, your chronic complaining about where's the guy under Col.Sumner and over Major Sheppard ~ probably wouldn't even be heard of ~ except to follow the chain of command within that sci-fi based storyline (ex: Star Wars).

For the last 8 years, the premise of Stargate (SG-1) has followed the following format and chain of command:

Scout teams usually composed of groups of 4 persons go out first, and might contain a partial military back-up guard. The full military might is at the SGC or elsewhere on earth. Standard rank of commands within the SGC were as follows:

Captain/Major Samantha Carter reports to
Col. Jack O'Neill- who reports to
General George Hammond.

What official level of Colonel and General (Chief or Brigadir, etc.) are not important at this point. If there were differing officer levels in between each of those, I don't recall ever hearing about them being a problem for the regular SG teams. Personal matters between certain characters was another issue entirely.

...Nor do I recall hearing anyone ever complaining about it to the ennth degree until now; or until BSG got half way thru their 1st season, and TV programming rank wars began debating over which show was better. (hint: they both have their pro's and con's per each episode; and please don't start arguing over both of them here ~ lest there become a parallel name association in a *DEFIANT ONE* series sense.)

========
What I do recall from the *legends* of Stargate is this:
In the beginnings of SG-1: Daniel Jackson had Jack O'Neill mostly as his personal guard back-up. Daniel translated non-English writings and played diplomat, while Jack protected Daniel's back -so to speak. Samantha Carter was mostly on missions for scientific purposes... and Teal'c tagged along, because he basically had no where else to go after SG-1's first ep. After several eps, all 4 of them became invaluable and more experienced in protecting each other. :)

Is that realistic? Probably not, but that's where the *fantasy* aspects of the sci-fi comes in.
========
As for SGA: The original journey to the Atlantis city from earth (in the ep: "Rising") was a ONE-way ticket into the unknown. This was stated repeatedly over many other eps, since "Rising". So, how many people and other stuff can be successfully brought thru a wormhole under 38 minutes?

Atlantis was expected to be a SCIENCE and perhaps a social "meet and greet" explorers project. Plot reminder: the Wraith were not factored into that neat little equation ~ McKay sort of mentions that in the "Hide and Seek" ep. Also, in SG-1, up to the first SG:A "Rising" episode, the Wraith were never (directly) mentioned in Daniel Jackson's ancient studies.
========

And for "The Defiant One" ep: stumbling upon a 10,000 years old surviving Wraith was also not part of McKay and Sheppard's *idealistic* world of creative evolution ... carnivourous dinosaur types ~ maybe, but not life-sucking Wraith (...perhaps there might be a side joke somewhere in SG:A about the "survival of the fittest" POV).
:eek: :p

Panther
June 26th, 2005, 01:17 AM
Well if budget was tight, I would probably sacrifice combat elements. While it will reduce my ability to project force, it means I won't overextend myself. Yes, it's sci-fi, but it is set in the present which means one can expect to see things that work in the present. A full deployable headquarters to run operations in another theatre is entirely logical and essential in this case. You cannot hope to maintain proper command and control of your assets without a proper HQ! What is happening when Maj Sheppard is offworld? Who's accounting for supplies? Who maintaing sustainment training? Who's tracking manning, casualties and personell matters? Who's planning long term strategy? Who's collecting, analysing data on the Wraith and other potential enemies? Major Sheppard? Simply put, no matter how much "dramatic licence" is taken, the current set up is ensuring chaos and disorganisation of the military element at Atlantis no matter how your looking at it. Unless of course you're one of the Marx brothers...

Now Atlantis is primarily a scientific and diplomatic mission, no-one will dispute. However there exists a military component which is subordinate to the "civilian" command authority. This element needs to be organised to effectively task itself to whatever strategy the CA develops. One man cannot do this. Perhaps in the future we can argue that planning has become simpler due to the extensive use of some advanced technological tools. However, in this case we cannot, so it is entirely reasonable and expected that current methodologies are employed in the deployment of military forces.

Secondly, the SGC's command structure is logical. IIRC a Major Command does have a second in command, but still most operational elements report directly to the commander. There maybe times when the commander assigns duties to the 2IC but obviously in this case Hammond likes to get hands on.

Thirdly, team composition is a grey issue. The primary mission of the SG teams is exploration and diplomacy. Obviously, the exploration side would need proper skills matched to it and Sam fulfils the technological side of things. Diplomacy is similar and Daniel does this side of things. However, expecting that there will be hostile contact the team would need combat skills, which would explain why O'Niell and Teal'c are there. I personally would have chosen a 6-man team, adding two more combatants to ensure a better chance of survival in a contact, and enabling them to withdraw to the gate.

You seem to agrue a lot that, realism is deffered in preference to "entertainment", that latter justifies this. I believe and will continue to do that that is the lazy, inferior person's way out. Why? Because working within realistic rules means a greater skill is required to weave an entertaining story and that makes the creater far more skilled than the conventional one.

SGalisa
June 26th, 2005, 07:49 PM
*idea* suggestion for Panther: :)
...and I've already posted a comment to the following topic to (help) get started on the rest-
click on the link in my above post #283 to the
"Stargate Military flaws" topic (the one listed above, not here)

and mention your *military* storyline concerns, complaints, or "flaws" there. It will probably be seen faster by TPTB (whoever they are), than here. I'm just guessing, but Here (ie: "episode" topics) seems more for the viewers to use as their *sandbox* -so to speak, and take that any way you want to imagine. Plus, you might get better detailed answers there than here. ;)


I think some of your previous questions are good, but I *am* the wrong person to be directing most of them at. I basically only answered the question about Sheppard being next in line, because I had a few moments to do so; thought I was doing a nice favor for someone with less time; and didn't expect this sidelined *military* thing to drag on as long as it has. Tho, it's still partly related to the ep, it does take away from studying the rest of it.

Thus, I thought it would be better to go to the other topic noted above...

Also, *Strange* how you emphasize "realism" and find Stargate unrealistic, while other people find it very real, within reason of its *authorized* limitations, and connections to our 21st century sort of timeline.

According to a recent interview with SG newcomer Beau Bridges, the "real" Air Force signs off on the SG scripts (what is acceptable for presentation, etc). How real that info is, I don't know... but RDA seemed to hint at the same thing, during his collection of interviews, which involved the Air Force. {*cool* for those who didn't know.} In other words, SG has their utmost *blessing* ...jokes or no jokes. And obviously, *they* don't have a problem either with dithering from real reality and poking fun now and then. :)
========

SGA details: As for a semi-quick answer
Originally posted by Panther:

You cannot hope to maintain proper command and control of your assets without a proper HQ! What is happening when Maj Sheppard is offworld? Who's accounting for supplies? Who maintaing sustainment training? Who's tracking manning, casualties and personell matters? Who's planning long term strategy? Who's collecting, analysing data on the Wraith and other potential enemies? Major Sheppard?beyond the assigned *desk* clerks to shuffle paperwork via computer here and there, civilian Dr. Weir. If you haven't seen "The Siege" eps yet, I'm not telling any more. (DO read the next *need to* "highlight" spoiler -it's got a possible answer)

You just might get your *military* changes wish.
Seems however, the guys in the control room have other analysing data to do than to simply monitor the equipment and keep their eyes glued to the technical screens. Oh... maybe that's revealed in a future ep too, tho... hmmm.

Hey, does that constitute as a spoiler, since I didn't mention the actual ep, nor what they were looking at?
or actually found...
it's *what* they actually found while Sheppard was away.
Was that revealed in "The Brotherhood"?

oh, and who's doing the training? was that in "The Gift"? gotta foggy memory. Maybe it's the trainer guy (who *is* SG's real trainer James "BAMBAM" Bamford... and who I thought looked like Ben Browder or Michael Shanks at some angles) :D who was sparring with Teyla, who is doing some of the Pegasus galaxy *military* training, as well...? ...just a wild guess.

If you want to get spoiled, read the actual episode topics with tons of info already in them. Your answers might be revealed in there. ;)


Originally posted by Panther:
I personally would have chosen a 6-man team, adding two more combatants to ensure a better chance of survival in a contact, and enabling them to withdraw to the gate.Oooo! Personally, I prefer it when they send 2-four person teams out. Use one team as a back-up just in case. Six-man to explore, and 2 guards to watch over the PJ or gate (if it's on land). Thus, Weir sent Ford in as the 2nd team back-up (in "The Defiant One" ep).

When you start messing with the team numbers, it might offset the original Stargate joke: 4 person team... possibly has something to do with the "Wizard of Oz" group of 4, excluding the dog, unless the MALP is Toto. :p

kudos to whoever thought of that *gem*! Now we know why Jack O'Neill asked "why is it always 4? Who determined that we're always a team of 4?" or something to those words... Also, somewhere around that time came the 5th man.

Panther
June 26th, 2005, 08:10 PM
Two four man teams doesn't work. There's more of a chance of discovery. You do not split up such a small team anyway. Survivability comes in numbers and firepower. I do not see a need to secure the Stargate, because a) if the area is hostile the MALP would have picked it up b) if the area is clear it's unlikely accessing the gate will be a problem later. Secondly, if I was going to hold an area, I'd use at least a reinforced light infantry company.

mgbland
September 17th, 2005, 08:00 AM
Great Shep Episode!

Why didn't Shep name the Wraith? I guess he wasn't being interrogated.

Well, my husband calls him Wraithable Lector.

mgbland
September 17th, 2005, 08:02 AM
Apparently Sheppard was the next highest ranking officer in line next to Sumner. I think it was the "HOME" episode that mentioned it, by Dr. Weir. *Spoilers* might require me to state what she said exactly... but I'd have to go back look at the ep, and write the info down first before posting it here.

Why he was next in line? *Limited* (military) crew taken to Atlantis? Or else they all got clobbered in various eps. Haven't a clue and don't recall hearing anything about it. I don't think they were expecting to mount a war. Going to Atlantis was originally a science exploration, not a military encounter. So, any military personnel taken, would be a light crew on a just in case basis (and that's just a wild guess).

Sheppard basically went to Atlantis because of his ancient GENE ability (turn on ancient related stuff), not go into battle and fight creatures and peoples he's never heard of before. Same with McKay... McKay was sent for his scientific expertise - not to hold a gun and be Shep's back-up, when in danger.


Weird that Sheppard would pick McKay to be on his team.

corey2002
January 28th, 2006, 08:47 PM
anyone know where this ep was filmed?

PG15
January 29th, 2006, 02:54 PM
I think it was "The Richmond Sand Dunes".

captain jake
April 9th, 2006, 10:25 AM
I dont think so but maybe,to be honest I have no idea.

woody
July 11th, 2006, 04:41 AM
A question here, when they enter that downed Wraith hive ship and got into the fight etc and the thing was killed why didn't they return to the ship and try and salvage some equipment, technology to study etc maybe even that power source that was running the distress beacon?

Catsitter
July 12th, 2006, 08:41 AM
Good question!
Spoiler for Siege part 1:
They do go back to the satellite but as far as I know, never back to the planet.
It does take 15 hours each way in the puddle jumper, but apart from that, I can only guess they are too scared!

woody
July 15th, 2006, 10:55 AM
Well probably true, i knew they went back to the satellite but well they should of gone back at some point or after i know it was end of episode but well the technology etc learning would of been beneficial and also if there was another Wraith they got the guns to beat it with.

meredithchandler73
December 6th, 2006, 09:32 AM
Hi all. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm a newbie to SGA. I watched 9 1/2 seasons of SG-1 in a few months (a couple of months ago) and now I'm starting on SGA.

I really enjoyed this episode. I actually liked seeing the energy bugs from Prodigy again. (I assume they are the same bugs - though I don't think we saw them move through matter.) I don't know if anyone else mentioned this (sorry - I skimmed through some of the posts in this thread, but I just couldn't read all 15 pages - and I noticed some bit Shep-hate going on that I didn't want to get into either) but I think the behavior of these bugs was interesting because it shed some light on Prodigy. Spoiler for Prodigy: Carter and Hailey have different theories about the bugs and their behavior. Carter believes the bugs were reacting to one of their own being captured. Hailey thinks the bugs are attacking due to the moon's position near the poles - magnetic energy affecting their behavior. There was no resolution about who was right - something I enjoyed about that episode. Since the bugs never ganged up on the Wraith that kept killing them, my guess is that Hailey was actually correct in her assumption that the bugs only went crazy because of the moon's position and they would have gone back to normal soon.

I'm wondering whether the reason this Wraith was so hard to kill was actually because he had so recently fed. Maybe there's something more to it? Perhaps feeding on his own kind actually made him much tougher. (I'm just thinking out loud! Please, don't spoil me!)

PG15
December 6th, 2006, 01:38 PM
Actually, it's most likely that these aren't the same bugs (different galaxies, after all). They just look similar.

neurophobic_and_perfect
January 31st, 2007, 11:14 AM
Thats a good point but they could have slipped through a gate or got stuck on a ship. Not likely put possible.
Since few people (if any) have moved between the milky way and pegasus for like 10 000 years they would have evolved separately.
Good epesode and Shep is hot when he gets beaten up - don't know why though...

Bye

Cam_Mitchell
February 1st, 2007, 07:25 AM
Heya

Good episode, really like it, cant really get any better quite funny as well lol


--Gaz--

lunapasa
March 13th, 2007, 10:30 PM
Nice episode :)

But how could that wraith survive so much? It couldn't all be because of having fed on somebody recently...

defending
July 13th, 2007, 01:19 AM
Great Shep Episode!I think this was one of if not the best, McKay and Sheppard episodes. They worked really well together this is what SGA needs more of, I do wish Peter would be given some more scripts to write.

KindlyKeller
March 2nd, 2008, 12:53 AM
It's a shame Atlantis had that brief period where they went from McKay being very competent with a gun (as seen here) to being haplessly useless for the comedic effect. They've grown out of that now, though.

Regarding this episode, this is easily one of the best of the five-year run, and one of my personal favorites. The show is at its best sometimes when it takes chances going to dark places, and such was the case here.

P-90_177
March 2nd, 2008, 01:38 AM
It's a shame Atlantis had that brief period where they went from McKay being very competent with a gun (as seen here) to being haplessly useless for the comedic effect. They've grown out of that now, though.

Regarding this episode, this is easily one of the best of the five-year run, and one of my personal favorites. The show is at its best sometimes when it takes chances going to dark places, and such was the case here.

Competant? in what way do you feel that not knowing how to reload is competant? Any idiot can point a shoot the thing. But the fact that he didn't even know how to reload indicates that he has never been given any weapons training.

KindlyKeller
March 2nd, 2008, 02:18 AM
Competant? in what way do you feel that not knowing how to reload is competant? Any idiot can point a shoot the thing. But the fact that he didn't even know how to reload indicates that he has never been given any weapons training.

Wow, an unnecessarily volatile response, BUT...

He shot and hit the Wraith with basically every round. That looked perfectly competent to me.

P-90_177
March 2nd, 2008, 02:25 AM
Wow, an unnecessarily volatile response, BUT...

He shot and hit the Wraith with basically every round. That looked perfectly competent to me.

Sorry. Didn't mean to sound so hard. Having a bad morning.:o

Anyway as i was saying just because he can fire and hit something it doesn't mean you're competant at it. the human body (ok humanoid) is actuallya pretty big target when you think about it and bullets do tend to head in a straight line. thinking about it now he did actually seem to know how to reload in the ep he just needed prompting to do so which indictes to me that he wasn't very proficient at it. wouldn't really call that competant really.

Again i apologise for my previous post. :o

Infinatus
July 30th, 2008, 03:42 PM
I personally thought this was the best episode of season 1 (The Siege parts 1 & 2 close behind). Would have been an interesting dynamic if there had been 2 Wraith instead of 1, but I'll take the episode for what it was: a nice look at Wraith technology, a little insight into their culture and feeding, and overall quite entertaining.

Wonder if those Wraith grenades will ever appear again.

gateship15
August 20th, 2008, 11:29 PM
this is a ok episode i just like that u see how much McKay has changed from when he was in Stargate commend. altho Shepperd should have been able to shot and re load better then he did

Artifysial
September 10th, 2008, 12:15 PM
I re-watched this last night and I was so surprised to find McKay so dying to get out and help Sheppard and in later eps he is parody of self being all scaredy - as said above. Great episode and loved McKay in this especially.

Orion25
September 19th, 2008, 12:52 AM
One of my favorite episodes and it was a plus that it centered to my favorite characters (Sheppard and Mckay). The wraith's resilience was freaky and I was very worried if Sheppard and McKay would actually get off the planet alive. The scene with the Wraith and energy bugs was hilarious to watch until the drone was heading towards him. Here, it somehow communicated through the Wraith's eyes his shock with that crazy gleam of disbelief that he's now toast and that he couldn't torment Sheppard anymore.

Butlersgate
February 25th, 2009, 11:45 AM
this is probably my most favourite episode of the entire season

Jumper_One
April 22nd, 2009, 04:47 PM
Reno Nevada writes: “Hey Peter - I just wanted to thank you for “The Defiant One.” It’s one of those episodes I will always sit down to watch, whenever it’s on, and is one of the first I mention when discussing Atlantis. Thanks for a great adventure!”

PDL: Thanks. The story was inspired by the Film “Hell in the Pacific” with Lee Marvin and Toshiro Mifune. The title was inspired by “The Defiant Ones” with Tony Curtis and Sidney Poitier, because the Wraith refuses to die and admires Sheppard’s defiance.

Dovil writes: “The Defiant One was one of my favourite episodes and your commentaries were some of the funniest things out - I laughed so hard I died, which was tragic for everyone concerned.
No, wait, that’s not a question. Read it aloud in a quizzical voice and maybe add a question mark to it. Yeah, I’ve got nothing. What’s your credit card number?”

PDL: You’re funny. You should write for television.
http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/april-22-2009-director-peter-deluise-answers-your-questions-another-upcoming-guest-blogger/

Linda06
May 1st, 2009, 03:40 PM
http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/april-22-2009-director-peter-deluise-answers-your-questions-another-upcoming-guest-blogger/

This was one of the worse eps of S1. It was so boring :p

jelgate
May 1st, 2009, 03:42 PM
This was one of the worse eps of S1. It was so boring :p

That is because you can't handle episodes without big explosions:P

Linda06
May 1st, 2009, 03:44 PM
That is because you can't handle episodes without big explosions:P

I know :p All there was were sand....and more sand....An yet more sand...And measly guns.

But it was boring :p

escyos
May 15th, 2009, 03:13 AM
i liked how they re-used energy creatures, question: did the wraith feed off those creatures or just squish them?

Dr. Selene Ankarres
October 7th, 2009, 07:12 AM
I felt abit sorry for 'Greg'. He was just going on instincts. But one thing troubles me... what did they mean he was 'different' from other wraith ? do wraith get stronger as they grow older ? or is he a different level of wraith ?

These are the questions that haunt me...

Dr. Selene Ankarres
October 7th, 2009, 08:50 AM
One question... Why is Greg the wraith so dirty ? i mean all that was there on that planet was like sand...then again maybe it was dirt dust. and does he seem paler than most wraith ? poor Greg !

spinny magee
January 17th, 2010, 01:26 AM
Fave line in there was

"Round one was a draw!"

Bajka20
January 18th, 2010, 11:05 AM
I think Greg was dirty because his ship was on a desert and there was no water. He was alone, his things worn out with constant use. :(

Poor Greg.:sheppardanime32:

ktebid
February 21st, 2010, 01:04 AM
I enjoyed the banter between Shep & McKay in this episode. I find it strange that the wraith in the first season are so hard to kill and yet they get easier as the seasons progress. I thought they covered the "suicide" very well.

Todd's Pet
March 23rd, 2010, 05:53 AM
*adds to the pitifully few "poor Greg" posts in this thread* :(

Bajka20
March 23rd, 2010, 11:15 AM
* poor Greg * :(

jelgate
March 23rd, 2010, 11:41 AM
Somehow I have a hard feeling sympathy for "Greg" since he was trying to kill everyone

The Mighty 6 platoon
March 23rd, 2010, 11:53 AM
Somehow I have a hard feeling sympathy for "Greg" since he was trying to kill everyone

On top of the fact that he fed on all the other wraith on the ship. So how could even a wraith worshipper love him? He murdered his own kind as well as killing humans.

Bajka20
March 23rd, 2010, 01:13 PM
He was hungry. He must eat to survive. If he wouldn`t fed on other Wraith, probably other Wraith could fed on him. It`s a law of survive. And he was like a prisoner on this planet.

Todd's Pet
March 23rd, 2010, 01:16 PM
Somehow I have a hard feeling sympathy for "Greg" since he was trying to kill everyone

You'd kill everyone too if THEY were all trying to kill YOU, n'est pa? :P

Todd's Pet
March 23rd, 2010, 01:17 PM
On top of the fact that he fed on all the other wraith on the ship. So how could even a wraith worshipper love him? He murdered his own kind as well as killing humans.

No worse than some humans have been known to do...

jelgate
March 23rd, 2010, 01:17 PM
You'd kill everyone too if THEY were all trying to kill YOU, n'est pa? :P

But he started the killing when he fed on that scientist

Bajka20
March 23rd, 2010, 01:22 PM
But he started the killing when he fed on that scientist

Because he was very hungry. When I will be hungry, and there will be no food I will kill and eat too.

jelgate
March 23rd, 2010, 01:29 PM
Because he was very hungry. When I will be hungry, and there will be no food I will kill and eat too.

Thats besides the point. Regardless of the reason I can't feel someone dying is because another species was defending thier own right to live

The Mighty 6 platoon
March 23rd, 2010, 02:15 PM
No worse than some humans have been known to do...

Cannibalistic humans tend not to get oohs and ahhs of pity though.

rushy
May 3rd, 2010, 09:23 AM
Well, in this episode the golden bugs don't attack people, they eat military chocolate. Poor bugs who were killed by the Super-Wraith.

asdf1239
May 3rd, 2010, 05:12 PM
i don't get the stasis thing. why couldn't all the wraith go into stasis instead of feeding on each other first

FromOutside
May 9th, 2010, 04:28 AM
i don't get the stasis thing. why couldn't all the wraith go into stasis instead of feeding on each other first

They are not in stasis, they hibernate, and use energy when they hibernate. So they have to wake up to eat.

I think they all hibernated together at first and when they got hungry and woke up, they played rock-paper-scissors and the loser became the dinner :P (Or they started to feed from drones and then then turned after other faced Wraith, things went bad and eventually 'Greg' was left alone)

Bajka20
May 12th, 2010, 01:12 PM
I think Greg was a Commander of that ship. And probably he was the stronger Wraith. He had strong survival instinct. And he was very clever. :wraith37:

What he was thinking, when he was feeding on the last Wraith? He knew, that he will be alone on this planet. But his hunger burned like a fire, and probably this second Wraith wanted to feed on him too. Greg did what he must for survive. Poor Greg. :(

Ragitsu
July 11th, 2010, 03:57 AM
Does the Puddle Jumper's built in shield ever get mentioned or appear again?

Doorlocks
August 5th, 2010, 03:10 PM
Really great episode! I'm watching Atlantis for the first time, and this is among the best of the episodes so far. I felt...not sorry for "Greg", exactly, but I wish he had survived. Anyone who can come out on top in a battle of hungry Wraiths and survive alone for 10,000 years is a supreme badass; he should have survived and become a recurring villain.

Bajka20
August 6th, 2010, 12:28 PM
Really great episode! I'm watching Atlantis for the first time, and this is among the best of the episodes so far. I felt...not sorry for "Greg", exactly, but I wish he had survived. Anyone who can come out on top in a battle of hungry Wraiths and survive alone for 10,000 years is a supreme badass; he should have survived and become a recurring villain.

Great idea. :D It could be very interesting. :) I think producers had similar idea and devise Todd. :)

Playtime20
August 6th, 2010, 10:30 PM
It would have been cool if they had him survive and then him and Todd could go at it one day and wonder who would've won that battle

My money is on Todd

Bajka20
August 7th, 2010, 02:18 AM
I think too Todd could won that battle. :D

mrscopterdoc
August 8th, 2010, 01:03 PM
Why didn't the wraith feed on the humans in hibernation?

addicted_to_steve
October 15th, 2010, 07:54 PM
He did. Though they showed the storage chamber where the humans had been kept, the food supply had long since been depleted.

I'm going to add to the *poor Greg* theme here. He did what he did to survive.

The Flyattractor
October 17th, 2010, 05:52 PM
Which was kill a bunch of poor little bugs.


He can come to my house anyday.

Wonder what would of happened if the other Wraith had found out they could feed on the glow bugs?

Glow Bug Farms?

Kenton-Atlantis
October 18th, 2010, 11:17 AM
yeah cool Episode for sure the fact that Rodney and John were not pleased with eachother helped for sure . great episode !!

Bajka20
October 30th, 2010, 12:45 PM
It`s my favourite episode. :D But I don`t like the end. :( So sad. :(

Leeta
October 30th, 2010, 02:59 PM
I'm adding to the poor Greg theme as well. He was also probably going insane from being alone. I agree with Bajka that the ending was sad but that might be the fan girl in me talking.

I thought Rodney was pretty funny in this episode when he was shooting his gun. He didn't have a clue what to do.

maneth
November 15th, 2010, 10:32 AM
Loved this ep, I really like how Rodney's finally coming into his own. Compared to the misogynistic egomaniac in SG-1 he really is a different guy.

Skie
March 17th, 2011, 03:49 PM
Two questions arise from this episode:

1. The wraith seemed to have some kind of protective armor, which fended off some of the bullets Sheppard throwed at him. So why don't the wraith use that know, would come in quite some handy against the lanteans.
2. Did he feed on those glowing bugs? Maybe he was just crushing them, but why bothering doing that at the end when he had still two enemies to defeat, I mean feed on. :) So this would mean that they can eat on something else. Perhaps wraiths can feed on pure energy, now that would open up a hell of new perspectives.

mathpiglet
April 6th, 2011, 11:56 AM
I'm confused by the glow bugs. They went to Shepherd because he had food, and followed the food when he threw it. They didn't go near McKay, but went to the Wraith, who does not have food, but actually feeds on them. Do they actually have enough intelligence to decide Shepherd and McKay are good guys and the Wraith is the bad guy, so they should help the good guys?

Seems to me a bit of a stretch!

EdenSG
April 6th, 2011, 12:05 PM
I'm confused by the glow bugs. They went to Shepherd because he had food, and followed the food when he threw it. They didn't go near McKay, but went to the Wraith, who does not have food, but actually feeds on them. Do they actually have enough intelligence to decide Shepherd and McKay are good guys and the Wraith is the bad guy, so they should help the good guys?

Seems to me a bit of a stretch!

If you are referring to the last few minutes of the episode the reason the bugs went to the Wraith is because Sheppard stuck an opened power bar in his clothing. The bugs went to the Wraith because of that.

mathpiglet
April 6th, 2011, 02:42 PM
If you are referring to the last few minutes of the episode the reason the bugs went to the Wraith is because Sheppard stuck an opened power bar in his clothing. The bugs went to the Wraith because of that.

Thank you. I missed that. Now it makes sense!

mrscopterdoc
June 4th, 2011, 05:53 PM
Two questions arise from this episode:

1. The wraith seemed to have some kind of protective armor, which fended off some of the bullets Sheppard throwed at him. So why don't the wraith use that know, would come in quite some handy against the lanteans.
2. Did he feed on those glowing bugs? Maybe he was just crushing them, but why bothering doing that at the end when he had still two enemies to defeat, I mean feed on. :) So this would mean that they can eat on something else. Perhaps wraiths can feed on pure energy, now that would open up a hell of new perspectives.

I think he was just squishing them, I didn't get the impression he fed on them.

garhkal
June 5th, 2011, 12:10 PM
Since I can't start any new threads in the episode discussion section, this should be fused into the official thread. I will warn for SPOILERS here and now, since this is a temporary thread for the episode.

DO NOT READ ON IF YOU DON'T WANT SPOILERS.

I just saw it and LOVED it.

From what I could see, we've seen two new pieces of Wraith technology: A Cargo ship and a Wraith Grenade.

From what I can see the grenade has massive radius, with blast noise that can be heard for several hundreds of meters, with a lot of impact noise.
Also, there was a LOT of development on the Wraith: we now know that if a Wraith has fed recently, they can regenerate much faster and much more damage.

What with the wraith having fed upon two men, he was able to take well over 20 P90 rounds, three full clips from a handgun and a Wraith Grenade, nearly in his face, yet KEPT ON GOING.

I believe that this is why the Ancients had a hard time during the war: the wraith are incredibly resiliant when they feed appropriately. Making their bodies nearly impossible to kill without having them vaporized.

It was said in rising pt2 that a fed wraith would be tremendously difficult to kill.


In the showdown between Sheppard and "Greg", "Greg" learned how to use a handgun REALLY quickly... Could it be that the Wraith have advanced analysis abilities? Because, it seems to me that no wraith or ancient weapon has a finger-operated trigger. Not to mention how "Greg" had killer aim in a fast-paced skirmish.


Being they have their own hand weapons, it is not surprising that he adapted to our pistols quickly.


In The Lost City, Part 2, the Ancient Drone weapons looked like Jellyfish. Since then, they've appeared to change the CG slightly, but they are still Glowy Jellyfish of DOOM.

I prefer the term SQUIDDY!!

Sllimy
July 10th, 2011, 02:24 PM
three full clips from a handgun

I know this was posted nearly 7 years ago but my God do I have to point it out...

They're called magazines, pistol MAGAZINES. Clips are used to hold rounds together, making it quicker to load them into the magazine. They are two different things.

The Flyattractor
July 11th, 2011, 04:46 PM
I think he was just squishing them, I didn't get the impression he fed on them.it seemed like he did it right after he got hurt and then got better.
And they did make mention of the bugs having a High Energy Life reading..or some such nonscene.
And this was early in the series. I am sure the writers realised that if they could feed on the bugs persay,that would probably have thrown a monkey wrench into their long term stories.

Lythisrose
June 13th, 2012, 04:32 PM
From Joe Mallozzi's Blog:
http://josephmallozzi.wordpress.com/2012/06/13/june-13-2012-dark-matter-at-comic-con-save-lennox-the-dog-days-of-stargate-past-atlantis-the-eye-and-the-defiant-one-vote-on-our-favorite-stargate-mid-season-two-parter-for-a-chance-to-win/#comments
THE DEFIANT ONE (112)

Peter DeLuise’s last script for the Stargate franchise is a terrific episode with the feel of an old Western – a duel to the death between two worthy warriors, battling it out against a dusty desert backdrop. We see a return of a life form surprisingly similar to one we’ve encountered before (back in SG-1?s Prodigy), a species that figures into a clever conclusion.

Here, we see the horrifying effects of the wraith’s feeding process – not death but pretty damn close. Another step in the evolution of the McKay character as he wrestles between staying safe and watching over a fallen comrade, or going out and helping Sheppard. And, when that fallen comrade takes his own life, Rodney doesn’t hesitate, putting his own life at risk to make a timely intervention and save John.

Cast your vote for your favorite Stargate mid-season two-parter for a chance to win some signed scripts.

hlndncr
June 15th, 2012, 06:16 PM
Not my kind of episode. I really didn't enjoy it at all. (Not surprising since I usually don't care for PDL eps.) A run and gun shoot out between Shep and a Wraith who's hard to kill is just a bunch of mindless blah to me. We've just seen in The Storm and The Eye that Shep is a good soldier and Rodney would risk his own life to save his friends, and those episodes showed more depth of character. We also know the Wraith are hard to kill. So this episode added nothing at all to the series. It is the epitome of filler.

It also bugged me that the scientist guy who got sucked on by the wraith and later shot himself was the same actor who played Nyan from SG-1 New Ground. Really the reuse of recognizable actors from SG-1 is getting a little out of hand. In fact, it would have been much more interesting if the guy had been Nyan. He was a scientist, exciled from his own world in our galaxy, and supposedly worked with Daniel at the SGC for several years. I could see him joining the Atlantis expedition.

NowIWillDestroyAbydos
June 18th, 2012, 03:56 PM
This was a pretty good episode. I've always enjoyed episode Peter DeLuise has wrote, really mythos-based.

Rolling down a sandy hill, nice way to infect your shoulder, John. Not much else to say.

Tomorrow, Atlantis is infected with a Virus.

Krisz
June 19th, 2012, 06:27 PM
Not a bad episode. I did like the creepy atmosphere of the derelict Wraith ship, and because you knew there was a surviving Wraith lurking somewhere!

I agree hlndrcr with your view on the 'Nyan' actor. Whilst he was good as the Wraithed and then dying man it would have been more poignant to lose him like that if he did play that original character from SG-1.

Sweet 'toothed' energy bugs, that was different! It would have been good if they'd attacked the Wraith as they did the scientist in SG-1's 'Prodigy' when the Wraith started to grab at them! Annoy the nasty Wraith a bit more before its annihilation by the drone! :P

Jae'a
June 20th, 2012, 09:43 AM
My LiveJournal post (http://jo-r-lee.livejournal.com/60377.html)

Wow, a 10,000 year old Wraith. Pity they couldn't save all those people in the pods. So they're just going to stay frozen there forever?

Lieutenant Sparrow
June 22nd, 2012, 01:47 AM
A pretty good ep.

That was one tough Wraith. Even the queen in the pilot ep wasn't that tough just after feeding.

The glow bugs from SG-1 make a cameo. I don't think they had a thing for food in SG-1 though. Pity lots them got blown up by the Drone.

Sad about that guy shooting himself because he thought he was gonna die anyway.

The Flyattractor
June 22nd, 2012, 06:04 AM
I don't think there were that many left.

Matt G
June 22nd, 2012, 02:20 PM
MIdweek, another ep of Atlantis.

1. I'd forgotten this ep aired while I was in Antigua first time round.

2. Took a while for it to grow on me as a result.

3. The bugs from SG1 showing up still seems corny.

4. Gaul didn't look 'that' rough...sorry he died.

Still a solid ep.

jelgate
June 23rd, 2012, 09:30 PM
This one is little bit out and has a few grasping at straws. Yes we know the Wraith have amazing regentive healing properties and all. But I for one have a hard grasping at the ability of this Wraith to survive some of the abuse Sheppherd gave the Wraith when he was fighting him on the planet. A little unrealastic to me even from the Wraith healing aspect to believe he could take that much abuse no matter how long he has fed recently. Never mind the parnoid Weir sending out a team was a little too convient for my taste. But on the plus side I liked the emotional stuff McKay had with the dying scientist and trying to get him to continue to hold on. It was some nice stuff that was sadly forgotten. Did it ever bother anyone they never showed how the Wraith shield was installed in the Jumper?

ZRFTS
June 26th, 2012, 01:06 AM
The Defiant One

So after the masterpiece that was "The Eye", we get an episode that involves the same old, same old; mainly involving the Atlantis crew and all. It's to be somewhat expected, I mean nothing can top that episode in terms of what follows afterwards. The Atlantis crew always find themselves in the most interesting of locals so I was intrigued by the idea of a downed Wraith ship. Shepard and Rodney make for great exploring buddies in my opinion and anything involving the Wraith is good as it moves the series forward but I've watched it and for some reason it feels very disappointing.

It does start off nicely in space with Rodney trying to fly a gateship and the stuff that introduces gives off a natural buildup to what is revealed to be the Wraith ship. The first sights of something leads to the discovery of something else which leads to them landing on the planet which leads to them exploring the Wraith ship and discovering the secrets that lie within; the wonder is that nothing it out of place, it's seemingly natural, not abruptly jumping from one scene to another. It allows for a buildup that works within the adventure mold of the series and for the surprises of the episode which it does pretty well. I'd have to say that the buildup is essential to the episode, if they jumped in and revealed the Wraith directly then it wouldn't be the same right?


http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/1710/sgabuildup.jpg
All for the buildup...

After the payoff however, the episode starts to get pretty boring with both Shepherd and McKay's plots lacking. I'll admit I love Shephard being a military tactician as much as the next guy and him facing off with the Wraith is good but it doesn't seem to be truly engaging, Shepherd just seems to be going through the motions as he faces off with the Wraith who's on his ship. The tactics he uses are seemingly brilliant and some of the ideas that come from the battle are pretty interesting but it just feels like a boring version of one of those Wild E. Coyote/Road Runner cartoons. The Wraith himself is interesting enough, I would of liked to see more of his history and some exploration since he is one of the ones who survived the Atlantian war and all but to see him be treated like just a common Wraith, to see him be underutilized is just sad; just look at what he did to survive, just look at the knowledge and potential that he holds. If I were the writers, I would of put him to better use.

McKay's plot is better in that it gives him a chance to grow his character; for some time we show the amount of care he shows for people and it's nice many of his scenes show him as a character who just doesn't care but to see him near people, to see him want to see people survive regardless of the circumstances, that says a lot. Unfortunately it doesn't get much mileage due to the one-off character Dr. Goy appearing in his scenes; his only purposed seemed to remind us (and McKay) that McKay wants to be out there with Shephard. While his comment about change is good, it has me thinking; has McKay really changed at all? I mean barely anybody knows McKay and certain episodes show contradictory behavior... (he's brave/he's scared.) It does give a sense of weight to McKay's plot but it's something that's ultimately shallow. The moment where he commits suicide is nice (in fact, the first willingful death of Atlantis) but something tells me the that the moment seems almost forced, like the writers wanted it to happen to give depth to the plot. Again, the suicide is nice but it doesn't feel natural.


http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/338/sgarodneyuniquemoment.jpg
Truly a good moment for him.

The amount of setup in this plot is nice, seemingly innocent elements like those firefly creatures and that PowerBar (the official bar of Stargate) are used later on in climatic moments of the script; that certainly gives the script some cinematic integrity as it shows the writers know how to plant elements then make them a bigger part of the picture later on but there's also a certain feeling that the writers knew there'd be a nick in time element to it, like they couldn't figure out how to end it so they decide to have McKay appear and also Ford for good measure; Don't get me wrong, I did like it that Ford had a reason and the gateship itself was used as a seemingly innocent element and they have to end it but they could of ended it better. Additionally, we never got to fully focus on the wrecked Wraith ship, I mean they went down there to explore it and they end the episode forgetting that the ship even existed; it would of been nice to see some sort of closure when it comes to the ship.

So this episode is unexpectedly disappointing, this episode is a complete borefest where mostly nothing happens. The beginning of the episode is great, we learn a bit more about the characters and the Wraith but it just seems to draw itself out for long amounts of time, especially during the face-off between Shephard and the Wraith; Shephard and McKay handle themselves admirably but even they too feel like they're going through the motions. A Wraith who's a remnant from the Atlantian war is an interesting idea but I guess the writers didn't think too much of that idea to make an entertaining episode.

4.5/10

The Flyattractor
June 26th, 2012, 04:48 AM
It also seemed to imply that there may have been differnet classes of wraith with differnt abilities. Sadly this was not to be the case.

Thorthewraith
April 2nd, 2013, 04:41 PM
This episode is Great!!! This is THE episode that made me ultimately LOVE the Wraith.
I didn't like the additional scientists though. But maybe that's just because compared to McKay they were complete wusses. I totally liked those little bugs, they added humor to the episode.
It is also interesting to know that the wraith resorted to cannibalism in times of need.
Wraith like that one...I wish they all would be like that. I liked how hard he was to kill, being shot several times and still standing up. He was even blown up and he rose!! Like Sheppard said: "I've seen wraith go down with far less bullets."

Basically it's a sad end, and it's very sad that he got blown up and scared like he was, but still, the way he acts...made him kind of funny... like his eyes going wide before the bomb goes off, catching the bugs, his cute smile... But that is one thing I miss with the wraith: I've never seen much expressions of pain or sorrow on them. Maybe because they were "just the enemy". Although I think giving the enemy a moral would have given the story even more indepth. It would raise even more moral questions like "Is it really right to kill these wraith who, after all, only have to feed..." although it might also have the risk of turning into a Twilight drama show, and that's what neither of us would want!!

Baron Of Hell
July 30th, 2013, 10:41 AM
This was a cool episode. Mckay was really on his game on this one. The only thing I didn't like was how tough the wraith was and how little they made of the suicide. Other than that it was great.

The little glow bugs were interesting. I don't think they were meant to be the same as ones from SG1 since the wraith guy was killing them. The ones from SG1 would have phased through him.

Ripple in Space
August 25th, 2013, 01:50 PM
Good episode. Poor Nyan. I too wish it could have really been Nyan. It would have been a nice way of clearing up what he's been doing since season 3.
I agree, it would've been great if he was Nyan. That could have even added to his jabs at McKay, "your country is known for Tim Hortons: quality family food for a reasonably price. My country mastered energy weapons, energy shields, and space flight before yours had running water."

XD

It just strikes me as endless positives, and no negatives in making him Nyan. Worse case, people don't recognize him, and figure he's meant to be just a random Milky Way alien who joined the SGC...

mrscopterdoc
August 20th, 2014, 08:21 AM
The glow bugs from SG-1 make a cameo. I don't think they had a thing for food in SG-1 though. Pity lots them got blown up by the Drone.
I likd the glow bugs too and I was sad so many had to die.

Davey
September 17th, 2018, 05:08 AM
I have been wondering about the possibility of disarming the Wraith by developing a product that would paralyze the Wraith's right arm, and/or provide a kind of shield protection that every person could wear that would deactivate and/or paralyze or poison the right hand when it attempts to feed. This came to mind when I saw Shepard aim and stab the right hand of the Wraith in this episode.