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View Full Version : The Hive Mind thingie and plot holes...



FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 11:30 AM
OK, so early on, Jennifer's comatose or whatever. Carson cuts off a tiny part of the Hive-thingie and Jennifer flatlines. O... K... so it's determined that it's very dangerous and possibly life threatening to harm the thingie in any way.

Yet nothing happened to her when John injected her with the retrovirus (another retrovirus?!). You'd think that with its dying breath, it'd curse Jennifer's safe and kill her. Also, what's up with it not at all reacting to John's presence in the room?!

It just let him walk straight up to Jennifer and inject her with something. What did it expect, for him to crash through the wall, walk out and hug her goodbye and then fly off? No, kill that ******* who's about to do something fishy now!

Then we have it communicating with the expedition. "I'm not Jennifer Keller anymore. Muahahahaha. I am but a nameless ship now! Ahahahahahaha!". John tells them to keep it talking and then flies off...

Only Jennifer's unconscious when he finally gets there. What, the crash knocked Jennifer and the creature unconscious (though it was still conscious enough to keep its grip on Ronon)? Or it just randomly lapsed into a coma? No, really, what possible reason could it have to random go from "Muahahahahahaha!" to "Zzzzzz!".

Just too much weirdness going on at the end there.

Xaeden
July 20th, 2008, 12:08 PM
OK, so early on, Jennifer's comatose or whatever. Carson cuts off a tiny part of the Hive-thingie and Jennifer flatlines. O... K... so it's determined that it's very dangerous and possibly life threatening to harm the thingie in any way.

Yet nothing happened to her when John injected her with the retrovirus (another retrovirus?!). You'd think that with its dying breath, it'd curse Jennifer's safe and kill her.

We have no idea what did or did not happen to her. She fell back with her eyes closed and then Sheppard told them to send help. The scene ends there and the next one begins with Keller out of isolation.

Also minior point, but she didn't flatline when they cut the thing off her. Her pulse was dropping and they prevented her from crashing with an injection. Sheppard was the one who flatlined when injected with phage virus (not the retrovirus). Which would suggest that it's possible the same thing would happen to Keller, but again we have no way of knowing if it did or not. If it did, she could've regained a heartbeat on her own or Sheppard/a medical team could've revived her within a few minutes.


Also, what's up with it not at all reacting to John's presence in the room?!

It just let him walk straight up to Jennifer and inject her with something. What did it expect, for him to crash through the wall, walk out and hug her goodbye and then fly off? No, kill that ******* who's about to do something fishy now!

It's possible that Beckett's guess was wrong when he said that maybe it wouldn't attack one of their own. When in reality it didn't care either way and would only attacked when it perceived a threat of any kind. Thus it only attacked Sheppard when he injected Keller even though the pathogen no longer existed in his bloodstream. However, I agree that one would think the jumper impacting it would set it off.

Prior_of_the_Ori
July 20th, 2008, 12:41 PM
Perhaps the Jumper crashing into the building confused it and distracted it from Sheppard. And really, it wasn't laughing when it said it wasn't Keller, it said it in a machine-like way. The only emotion it showed was when it said it could have killed Ronan with a single pull from its tentacle.

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 12:54 PM
Perhaps the Jumper crashing into the building confused it and distracted it from Sheppard. And really, it wasn't laughing when it said it wasn't Keller, it said it in a machine-like way. The only emotion it showed was when it said it could have killed Ronan with a single pull from its tentacle.
The maniacal laugh was added for humour.

PG15
July 20th, 2008, 01:05 PM
We never saw Keller speak; for all we know the voice was created from the creature interfacing with the intercom.

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 02:29 PM
We never saw Keller speak; for all we know the voice was created from the creature interfacing with the intercom.
It was the creature.

It said "I am no longer Dr. Keller" (or whatever it said), which means it's using Jennifer's body to speak, not merely growing around here and having its own voice. It also used her voice, although distorted.

Mitchell82
July 20th, 2008, 02:43 PM
OK, so early on, Jennifer's comatose or whatever. Carson cuts off a tiny part of the Hive-thingie and Jennifer flatlines. O... K... so it's determined that it's very dangerous and possibly life threatening to harm the thingie in any way.

Yet nothing happened to her when John injected her with the retrovirus (another retrovirus?!). You'd think that with its dying breath, it'd curse Jennifer's safe and kill her. Also, what's up with it not at all reacting to John's presence in the room?!

It just let him walk straight up to Jennifer and inject her with something. What did it expect, for him to crash through the wall, walk out and hug her goodbye and then fly off? No, kill that ******* who's about to do something fishy now!

Then we have it communicating with the expedition. "I'm not Jennifer Keller anymore. Muahahahaha. I am but a nameless ship now! Ahahahahahaha!". John tells them to keep it talking and then flies off...

Only Jennifer's unconscious when he finally gets there. What, the crash knocked Jennifer and the creature unconscious (though it was still conscious enough to keep its grip on Ronon)? Or it just randomly lapsed into a coma? No, really, what possible reason could it have to random go from "Muahahahahahaha!" to "Zzzzzz!".

Just too much weirdness going on at the end there.
It was likely stunned from the crash which allowed him the time he needed to give her the injection but it did defend itself by impailing John.

Hypochondriac
July 20th, 2008, 03:47 PM
Someone brought up the point that Carter was infected, so when Continuum took place shouldn't she have changed as well? How much time passed from Carter leaving and Woosely arriving?

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 04:22 PM
It was likely stunned from the crash which allowed him the time he needed to give her the injection but it did defend itself by impailing John.
How the hell does a giant creature that's spread throughout several floors get stunned by a jumper crashing through a small part of it?

It also did nothing while John slowly walked up to Jennifer and then injected her. It only "defended" itself after he'd already killed it, with its dying breath.

Ltcolshepjumper
July 20th, 2008, 04:26 PM
It is a plothole. And several weeks (OK, maybe not several weeks) had passed since Search and Rescue. By that time, Continuum had already happened. Maybe that's where she was at the end of the movie.

Mitchell82
July 20th, 2008, 04:53 PM
How the hell does a giant creature that's spread throughout several floors get stunned by a jumper crashing through a small part of it?

It also did nothing while John slowly walked up to Jennifer and then injected her. It only "defended" itself after he'd already killed it, with its dying breath.

Um becuase anything would get stuned by such a massive impact. He was going at a speed that would have toppled the WTC instantly. And duh it would defend itself for it's last breath.

jds1982
July 20th, 2008, 08:19 PM
How the hell does a giant creature that's spread throughout several floors get stunned by a jumper crashing through a small part of it?

How does a relatively large creature, like say a deer or a human get stunned or even killed when something like a bullet crashes through a small part of it? Maybe because it took a lot of damage or I dunno, that jumper freaking hurt when it crashed into what was essentially its skull.

wise one
July 21st, 2008, 01:33 AM
possible didnt determine john a threat or it was busy repairing itself when john crashed through, but once john gave the injection it quickly went for him

TDgamer
July 21st, 2008, 02:49 AM
Are you all forgetting that Carson cut a bit and it caused problems, but Ronon hacked and slashed through it with no effect?

eviladam
July 21st, 2008, 03:21 AM
I've got a better question: What happens to this hive mind when the ship is fully grown. To my knowledge there's never been any thing like that on any of the wraith ships we've seen so far. Wraith ships let the Atlantis crew slip on board and blow up their hyperdrives and slip away unscathed.

Xaeden
July 21st, 2008, 03:57 AM
From Joe's blog:


Fan writes: “Also why didnt the tendrils attack him as they had ronon the moment he got out of the jumper?”

Answer: In the case of Ronon, he was a direct threat to them, firing at the wall of tendrils and causing some sustained serious damage. In Sheppard’s case, it is the jumper that causes the brief but sudden damage. By the time the ramp has lowered and Sheppard has stepped out into the room, HE is no longer perceived as a threat - until he delivers the cure.

This works for me. Although I think it would've worked better to see or hear the tentacles attack the jumper and then watch Sheppard look around nervously as the jumper shook for a few seconds. Then it calms down and Sheppard feels confident enough to try and go outside where he again looks around nervously and finds that it thinks the threat is gone. But the tentacles not violently responding to the jumper because it was a sudden impact with no more resistance forthcoming makes sense to me.

EdenSG
July 21st, 2008, 04:46 AM
From Joe's blog:

Quote:
Fan writes: “Also why didnt the tendrils attack him as they had ronon the moment he got out of the jumper?”

Answer: In the case of Ronon, he was a direct threat to them, firing at the wall of tendrils and causing some sustained serious damage. In Sheppard’s case, it is the jumper that causes the brief but sudden damage. By the time the ramp has lowered and Sheppard has stepped out into the room, HE is no longer perceived as a threat - until he delivers the cure.


This works for me. Although I think it would've worked better to see or hear the tentacles attack the jumper and then watch Sheppard look around nervously as the jumper shook for a few seconds. Then it calms down and Sheppard feels confident enough to try and go outside where he again looks around nervously and finds that it thinks the threat is gone. But the tentacles not violently responding to the jumper because it was a sudden impact with no more resistance forthcoming makes sense to me.


The ending scene bothered me because I didn’t think it was clearly demonstrated why the tendrils did not attack Sheppard right away. One of the “maybes” I had entertained in the discussion thread as a reason why was because the jumper had done such damage to the entity/tendrils that it didn’t sense Sheppard at first. So the explanation from JM’s blog makes sense to me, but what makes it work for me is since I first posted on the subject in the discussion thread I have watched the episode again. When I re-watched the scene in which Zalenka approaches the tendrils in the lower corridor, he is not attacked at first until he stands still and begins to take readings. Once the tendrils attack him Teyla comes in and blasts the heck out of them with her P-90. Not only are the tendrils in harmless pieces but the remaining tendrils release Zalenka and retreat. So it could make sense that a jumper slamming into it could do a lot of damage and cause it to at least momentarily back-off, and this scene seems to support that explanation.

Prior_of_the_Ori
July 21st, 2008, 04:48 AM
One has to remember that the organism is quite large and when struck by the Jumper, it might have concentrated instead on the wound rather then note the foriegn intruder that was approaching its core. Happened a bit quick but the episode was nearing its end so it needed to be covered quickly I suppose.

FallenAngelII
July 21st, 2008, 05:30 AM
Xaeden, that's such a copout by the writers. "The hive thingie is just that stupid". It's supposedly sharing its mind with Jennifer, it should, thus, know what she knows.

Oh yeah, someone just crashed through the wall with a jumper. I bet it was remote controlled and not at all piloted! And the pilot just stepped out of the jumper! I bet he's just here to tell Jennifer "Goodbye" and then he'll leave peacefully.

Anything with half a brain would've realized John was a threat and attacked him. That's just a lazy copout from the writers' side because they just had to make John the hero (yet again).

It attacked Radek when he was just wandering around, for crying out loud! Here we have someone who just crashed through the wall walking towards Jennifer and it just went "Why hai thar, Sexay!" and laid back to watch John's ass move, or what?

rarocks24
July 21st, 2008, 06:08 AM
Xaeden, that's such a copout by the writers. "The hive thingie is just that stupid". It's supposedly sharing its mind with Jennifer, it should, thus, know what she knows.

Oh yeah, someone just crashed through the wall with a jumper. I bet it was remote controlled and not at all piloted! And the pilot just stepped out of the jumper! I bet he's just here to tell Jennifer "Goodbye" and then he'll leave peacefully.

Anything with half a brain would've realized John was a threat and attacked him. That's just a lazy copout from the writers' side because they just had to make John the hero (yet again).

It attacked Radek when he was just wandering around, for crying out loud! Here we have someone who just crashed through the wall walking towards Jennifer and it just went "Why hai thar, Sexay!" and laid back to watch John's ass move, or what?

Sounds like you have a strong disability to suspend your disbelief. You should not be watching SciFi.

That is all.

FallenAngelII
July 21st, 2008, 06:27 AM
Sounds like you have a strong disability to suspend your disbelief. You should not be watching SciFi.

That is all.
Just because it's sci-fi doesn't mean it cannot be illogical. And Stargate suffers from way too many episodes where the bad guys lose due to their own rampant stupidity.

Hypochondriac
July 21st, 2008, 10:40 AM
It would ha been better to have ronan the hero. He was doing pretty good. Using his sword to hack at it. Just a few more seconds and he would have had it.

Constanza
July 21st, 2008, 11:44 AM
Are you all forgetting that Carson cut a bit and it caused problems, but Ronon hacked and slashed through it with no effect?

That catch my attention too… that creature had focusing problems!

jds1982
July 21st, 2008, 01:56 PM
Are you all forgetting that Carson cut a bit and it caused problems, but Ronon hacked and slashed through it with no effect?

Well it was a helluva lot smaller back then.

FallenAngelII
July 21st, 2008, 03:05 PM
Well it was a helluva lot smaller back then.
But it was just a miniscule bit hanging on the outside of it, not at its core. It's not like they'd just damaged it equivalent of organs or something.

Mitchell82
July 21st, 2008, 03:42 PM
Are you all forgetting that Carson cut a bit and it caused problems, but Ronon hacked and slashed through it with no effect?

Um yes it did it fought him tooth and nail.

PG15
July 21st, 2008, 05:25 PM
For the record, Zelenka wasn't just wandering around. He was scanning the thing too.


But it was just a miniscule bit hanging on the outside of it, not at its core. It's not like they'd just damaged it equivalent of organs or something.

In that case, let me get my knife. Just put your finger right here and...

FallenAngelII
July 22nd, 2008, 04:01 AM
Um yes it did it fought him tooth and nail.Harm to Jennifer.


For the record, Zelenka wasn't just wandering around. He was scanning the thing too.
Yes, quite a threat, as opposed to John having just crashed through the wall and then slowly walking up to Jennifer wielding what she knows is an injection of something.


In that case, let me get my knife. Just put your finger right here and...
You hack off my finger, I crash and almost die? Then when you later hack off more fingers, I sleep like a log?

.

SG-Lover-SL
July 22nd, 2008, 05:05 AM
Yet nothing happened to her when John injected her with the retrovirus (another retrovirus?!). You'd think that with its dying breath, it'd curse Jennifer's safe and kill her. Also, what's up with it not at all reacting to John's presence in the room?!

It just let him walk straight up to Jennifer and inject her with something. What did it expect, for him to crash through the wall, walk out and hug her goodbye and then fly off? No, kill that ******* who's about to do something fishy now!



This is true... not to mention Sheppard was Vaccinated. Ronon at least was not seen as hostile until he started shooting....Ronon wasn't vaccinated at that time...

Mitchell82
July 22nd, 2008, 09:57 AM
Harm to Jennifer.


Yes, quite a threat, as opposed to John having just crashed through the wall and then slowly walking up to Jennifer wielding what she knows is an injection of something.


You hack off my finger, I crash and almost die? Then when you later hack off more fingers, I sleep like a log?

.

*sigh*

rarocks24
July 22nd, 2008, 02:43 PM
*sigh*

She knew nothing. She didn't even have her eyes open. And for the sake of plot device, (keeping her alive) they sacrificed a "little" common sense. All SciFi shows do this. Typically when they're encountering something that's become sort of a deus ex machina.

SG-Lover-SL
July 22nd, 2008, 05:23 PM
Have to agree...

That last bit was odd... Shep just walked upto Keller and vaccinated her...

He not only crashed the jumper in but remember, shep was also vaccinated by Beckett. Remember what happen to Ronon, despite still being infected when he showed aggression? And Zelenka got a Concussion just walking up to the thing to check how much power it was draining...OUCH!

So that last bit was WAY TOO EASY....

Overall I well....lets say I didn't hate the episode...If it wasn't about that last bit, I would have called it.......reasonable...

Good part was the Hive-ship elements. The hardened-shell, what compounds it is made of.....It Resistance to heat, pressure and Radiation...that part was interesting....

So hopefully will get to see Michael in a hive-ship for real and not in some "what if" timeline...And a more advanced version of the Hive by michael would be really nice.....

FallenAngelII
July 22nd, 2008, 05:43 PM
She knew nothing. She didn't even have her eyes open. And for the sake of plot device, (keeping her alive) they sacrificed a "little" common sense. All SciFi shows do this. Typically when they're encountering something that's become sort of a deus ex machina.
The creature obviously didn't need Jennifer awake to see things. For one thing, how could it possibly have seen Ronon to immediately go for him when he was in another room? How would it have known who Radek was, what he was doing and that he was a threat and where he was to attack him down on the lower levels?

It shares a mind and memories with Jennifer, but it is autonomous and doesn't require her in order to see.

PG15
July 22nd, 2008, 08:09 PM
Yes, quite a threat, as opposed to John having just crashed through the wall and then slowly walking up to Jennifer wielding what she knows is an injection of something.

I don't know. Both times it attacked only those who posed some kind of immediate threat. Zelenka's was directly scanning the tentacles (and we don't know how that thing perceived scanning; it might not seem threatening to us, but we're not a bunch of tentacles), and Ronon was directly slashing and blasting away. Technically, John didn't do any harm to the creature, it's the PJ that did the crashing. By the time he got out of the PJ, it would seem that they perceived him as just another Ronon; someone walking around and not doing anything. Even if he had a syringe, it wasn't immediately threatening (just like it didn't attack Ronon just because he was carrying a gun that could harm them). Of course, when Shep became threatening, when he injected Keller, it immediately tried to kill him, which is consistent with everything that thing did before.

Really, hindsight is 20/20. Neither the creature nor Keller would've known that that syringe was 100% effective or even what it was going to do to them.


You hack off my finger, I crash and almost die? Then when you later hack off more fingers, I sleep like a log?


Well, you'd probably don't want your fingers cut off, right? At that point, it seems the creature was small enough that it can't risk loosing much of its mass, so I suppose that was just a preventative measure. Later on, it got so big that hacking off parts didn't necessarily mean any real loss to the mass, so it didn't care.

So basically, cutting off the little piece wouldn't have hurt Keller at all if the creature didn't induce it so as to scare Beckett off from cutting more of it away.

FallenAngelII
July 22nd, 2008, 08:45 PM
Really, hindsight is 20/20. Neither the creature nor Keller would've known that that syringe was 100% effective or even what it was going to do to them.
John is armed with a syringe and walking towards Jennifer. What would the creature/Jennifer possibly think he had in mind? Plot-induced stupidity.

Also, Jennifer/creature is not an idiot. According to Carson (I think), it shares it mind with Jennifer, her memories, her knowledge. He knows what a jumper is, it knows that it needs a pilot and if John just stepped out of the ship, then he was the pilot, thus an obvious threat.


Well, you'd probably don't want your fingers cut off, right? At that point, it seems the creature was small enough that it can't risk loosing much of its mass, so I suppose that was just a preventative measure.
What, trying to kill Jennifer? That's a mighty big risk. Besides, that was a tiny part as compared to, say, John crashing through the wall.


Later on, it got so big that hacking off parts didn't necessarily mean any real loss to the mass, so it didn't care.

So basically, cutting off the little piece wouldn't have hurt Keller at all if the creature didn't induce it so as to scare Beckett off from cutting more of it away.
Possible, though.

PG15
July 22nd, 2008, 08:51 PM
John is armed with a syringe and walking towards Jennifer. What would the creature/Jennifer possibly think he had in mind? Plot-induced stupidity.

Again, Hindsight.

Ronon was all ready to shoot the creature, his gun raised and everything. Shouldn't the creatures have attacked him then? What possible reason would Ronon have to raise his gun like that other than to shoot? But no, it waited until he actually did damage before striking. That's consistent to what it did to John.



What, trying to kill Jennifer? That's a mighty big risk. Besides, that was a tiny part as compared to, say, John crashing through the wall.

Why not? As you keep saying, it shared Keller's mind, and she'd know that they wouldn't let her die so easily. As for the crashing thing; I don't know. It seemed the creature has already gotten large enough by that point to not care. Besides, it also had already tapped into a large source of energy by then, so I think it can repair itself easily enough.

EternalAlteran
July 23rd, 2008, 12:11 AM
Maybe the retrovirus first attacks the part that shares kellers mind, once that is destroyed resistance is futile

Hypochondriac
July 23rd, 2008, 06:16 AM
It should have at least attacked the jumper then, or covered it with vines or something like that. It didn't even react to the jumper.

Lythisrose
July 23rd, 2008, 11:06 AM
I wonder if when a hive ship is being created it is designed to not react to random beings wandering around unless it felt threatened. The Wraith might need to do so to check on the progress of their new ship. I don't think it was ever stated as fact that the ship would only accept those with the virus in their bloodstream, was it? I thought it was mere speculation on Carson's part. I can't really tell, from how the baby hive reacted.

LoneStar1836
July 23rd, 2008, 06:41 PM
Um becuase anything would get stuned by such a massive impact. He was going at a speed that would have toppled the WTC instantly. And duh it would defend itself for it's last breath.That's quite an exaggeration, imo. A PJ is not a Boeing 767. It is not going to cause that amount of destruction.


Xaeden, that's such a copout by the writers. "The hive thingie is just that stupid". It's supposedly sharing its mind with Jennifer, it should, thus, know what she knows.

Oh yeah, someone just crashed through the wall with a jumper. I bet it was remote controlled and not at all piloted! And the pilot just stepped out of the jumper! I bet he's just here to tell Jennifer "Goodbye" and then he'll leave peacefully.

Anything with half a brain would've realized John was a threat and attacked him. That's just a lazy copout from the writers' side because they just had to make John the hero (yet again).I generally agree. It was pretty dumb of the entity to not realize by now that it was in a hostile environment and that actions being taken against it were not friendly in nature.

Zalenka was already seen as a threat. Teyla blasted a section of it to bits. Then it was attacked by Ronon. Has it not learned by now that the other creatures within its vicinity are out to cause it harm?

So once it sensed Shepard, it should have attacked him, imo. I did consider the possibility that it was stunned and that's why it didn't do anything when Shep just strolled up to Keller. But even that doesn't make complete sense to me.

Shep did not crash the PJ in the exact same room as Keller (or that wasn't the impression I got) so he still had to make his way to where she was even if it was just the next room over. Even if it was stunned momentarily, it ought to have still had enough animal instinct to try to protect itself.


But it was just a miniscule bit hanging on the outside of it, not at its core. It's not like they'd just damaged it equivalent of organs or something.My interpretation of that. The entity was protecting itself. Here it is in a very small state where it has no means of defense. These outside forces are trying to harm it. The entity, knowing that this body that it has infected is valued by these people trying to harm it, responds by harming its host in order to get Carson etc to back off and not cause it any more harm knowing that it in turn would harm Keller. Now my interpretation of that gives this thing an intelligence. (As well as evidently giving the writers too much credit.)

Of course it was taking a chance by harming Keller in order to get the others to back off but what other choice did it have if that was indeed why Keller started to die. So by the time it was large enough to not feel threatened by attacks, it no longer needed to cause any direct harm to Keller in order to get them to stop. It was big enough to defend itself and massive enough to take damage (like Teyla shooting it) without resorting to threatening its host's life in order to get them to stop harming it.

That is why I have a difficult time buying that it just chose to ignore Shep until it was actually harmed by him giving it the shot. It should have been intelligent enough to decide that the environment it was in was hostile towards it after the other encounters with Zelenka, etc. Does it not have the capacity to learn by experience? So I don't buy JM's explanation. Unless of course it was just really, really stupid to begin with anyway and lacked the capacity to learn and adapt.

Avenger
July 23rd, 2008, 07:19 PM
That's quite an exaggeration, imo. A PJ is not a Boeing 767. It is not going to cause that amount of destruction

Force = Mass x Velocity

Jumpers can fly far faster than an airliner, especially a slow moving airliner crashing into a building.

LoneStar1836
July 23rd, 2008, 07:32 PM
Force = Mass x Velocity

Jumpers can fly far faster than an airliner, especially a slow moving airliner crashing into a building.
Yeah and so? Is mass not taken into account? As I'm sure the 767 has a vastly greater mass.

So the PJ flying through a window in the WTC would have brought them down instantly? Come on. A number of factors caused the towers to fall, thus my saying that was a very exaggerated and poor comparison to use.

If it was going so dang fast then why didn't it cause enough damage in the tower that it crashed into in Atlantis to topple it/cause significant structural damage?

rarocks24
July 24th, 2008, 04:45 AM
Yeah and so? Is mass not taken into account? As I'm sure the 767 has a vastly greater mass.

So the PJ flying through a window in the WTC would have brought them down instantly? Come on. A number of factors caused the towers to fall, thus my saying that was a very exaggerated and poor comparison to use.

If it was going so dang fast then why didn't it cause enough damage in the tower that it crashed into in Atlantis to topple it/cause significant structural damage?

Easy solution. Sheppard hit the breaks when he hit the building. Also, the jumper was smaller, and there wasn't very much fuel. Ergo, nothing was on fire.

And no a jumper flying into the WTC would not bring them down. That had to do with structural damage, the weight of the building above the damaged section, the weakening of the iron beams holding the building up due to heat, etc.

LoneStar1836
July 24th, 2008, 07:53 AM
Easy solution. Sheppard hit the breaks when he hit the building. Also, the jumper was smaller, and there wasn't very much fuel. Ergo, nothing was on fire.

And no a jumper flying into the WTC would not bring them down. That had to do with structural damage, the weight of the building above the damaged section, the weakening of the iron beams holding the building up due to heat, etc.Exactly. Which was my point even though I didn't go into detail about the two very different crashes.

I was not surprised that the PJ didn't cause massive damage to the Atlantis tower. It's not big enough, and I doubt it was traveling all that fast.

Course can you hit the brakes when the drive pods are retracted before you hit? I did notice that he retracted them a ways before impacting so as not to damage them and thus I guess hopefully making the PJ salvageable.

Mitchell82
July 24th, 2008, 08:13 AM
That's quite an exaggeration, imo. A PJ is not a Boeing 767. It is not going to cause that amount of destruction.
It might not be the same size though the speed it goes far surpasses the spped of a Boeing 767.


I generally agree. It was pretty dumb of the entity to not realize by now that it was in a hostile environment and that actions being taken against it were not friendly in nature.
I have to agree with PG15 on this. Hindsight is 20/20 and while it realized that Roon was a threat when he started shooting and hacking it likely didn't realize the threat of the syringe.


Zalenka was already seen as a threat. Teyla blasted a section of it to bits. Then it was attacked by Ronon. Has it not learned by now that the other creatures within its vicinity are out to cause it harm?
Yes but it it didn't realize Ronon was a threat because he was infected.


So once it sensed Shepard, it should have attacked him, imo. I did consider the possibility that it was stunned and that's why it didn't do anything when Shep just strolled up to Keller. But even that doesn't make complete sense to me.
I think it makes perfect sense. What Shepard did would have stuned anything and it wouldn't know the danger of the syringe.


Shep did not crash the PJ in the exact same room as Keller (or that wasn't the impression I got) so he still had to make his way to where she was even if it was just the next room over. Even if it was stunned momentarily, it ought to have still had enough animal instinct to try to protect itself.
It was actually the next room. He was very close hence the reason he was able to get to her quickly.

FallenAngelII
July 24th, 2008, 08:23 AM
I have to agree with PG15 on this. Hindsight is 20/20 and while it realized that Roon was a threat when he started shooting and hacking it likely didn't realize the threat of the syringe.
John had just crashed through the wall, wounding it. It didn't even touch the jumper or John. It supposedly interacts with Jennifer's brain to identify who's hostile and who isn't.

Hmmm... John just walked out of a jumper which just crashed through the wall... I wonder what his intentions are. Plot induced stupidity. It's not hindsight 20/20. Anything that's not an idiot would've known John was hostile.


I think it makes perfect sense. What Shepard did would have stuned anything and it wouldn't know the danger of the syringe.
Why would it stun it? That was a miniscule part. The creature had grown huge by that time. Also, read above.

Also, Jennifer's brain, hello. John walking towards her with a syringe. Hmmm... I wonder what he's gonna do!

LoneStar1836
July 24th, 2008, 08:54 AM
It might not be the same size though the speed it goes far surpasses the spped of a Boeing 767.I've already commented on why I think it's an exaggeration in later posts.


I have to agree with PG15 on this. Hindsight is 20/20 and while it realized that Roon was a threat when he started shooting and hacking it likely didn't realize the threat of the syringe.So by the point that Shep does what he does, this entity still has no capacity to learn from the three previous events and thus adapt? It just sits there waiting to be attacked rather than be proactive by the point Shep shows up.


Yes but it it didn't realize Ronon was a threat because he was infected. I bought that from the start and had no problem with it not immediately going for Ronon.

But why didn't it go on and kill Ronon? Why the need to keep him alive? Ronon was infected and so had the potential to develop into another entity like itself so that could have possibly been a reason, but why would this thing in Keller want to have to then compete with the one in Ronon for the energy that it needed for development?

So again I gave this thing too much credit that it might have been using Ronon as a pawn to keep the others from attacking it because it was threatening to kill Ronon. Hence it viewed the others now as a threat/potential threat. And with Shep no longer being infected that excuse could be tossed out the door as to why it didn't see him as a threat.


I think it makes perfect sense. What Shepard did would have stuned anything and it wouldn't know the danger of the syringe.To you. And says you. ;)

I was just stating my opinion as obviously the events were open to interpretation or otherwise there would be no room for dispute if it had been spelled out for us.


It was actually the next room. He was very close hence the reason he was able to get to her quickly.Oh it was eh? How do you specifically know that other than to take a guess that it was (like I did). I'm sure Shep used the HUD in the PJ to determine where to "land" the PJ and of course logic would dictate it was the next room or at least very close, but it can't be said with certainty, imo. Maybe it was two rooms over. :P

Mitchell82
July 24th, 2008, 09:04 AM
John had just crashed through the wall, wounding it. It didn't even touch the jumper or John. It supposedly interacts with Jennifer's brain to identify who's hostile and who isn't.

Hmmm... John just walked out of a jumper which just crashed through the wall... I wonder what his intentions are. Plot induced stupidity. It's not hindsight 20/20. Anything that's not an idiot would've known John was hostile.
I didn't say it didn't I said it was stuned which is how he was able to give it the antidote.



Why would it stun it? That was a miniscule part. The creature had grown huge by that time. Also, read above.
Wrong it was the main part.


Also, Jennifer's brain, hello. John walking towards her with a syringe. Hmmm... I wonder what he's gonna do!
She didn't see the syringe.

Mitchell82
July 24th, 2008, 09:12 AM
I've already commented on why I think it's an exaggeration in later posts.
And I disagree. From Suspicion
"Without inertial dampening we'd be hit by so many gees our eyes'd pop, the skin'd pull away from our faces, our brains'd squish up to the back of our skulls and our internal organs would be crushed into these chairs."
Which indicates the jumpers can fly at incredible speeds so the impact would be amazingly strong.


So by the point that Shep does what he does, this entity still has no capacity to learn from the three previous events and thus adapt? It just sits there waiting to be attacked rather than be proactive by the point Shep shows up.
It attacked Ronon, and then I stand by my opinion that the entity was stunned by the impact.


I bought that from the start and had no problem with it not immediately going for Ronon.


But why didn't it go on and kill Ronon? Why the need to keep him alive? Ronon was infected and so had the potential to develop into another entity like itself so that could have possibly been a reason, but why would this thing in Keller want to have to then compete with the one in Ronon for the energy that it needed for development?Leverage.


So again I gave this thing too much credit that it might have been using Ronon as a pawn to keep the others from attacking it because it was threatening to kill Ronon. Hence it viewed the others now as a threat/potential threat. And with Shep no longer being infected that excuse could be tossed out the door as to why it didn't see him as a threat.
I never used that as a reasoning. I'm using the fact that IMO the entity was stunned by the impact.



I was just stating my opinion as obviously the events were open to interpretation or otherwise there would be no room for dispute if it had been spelled out for us.
Same with me.


Oh it was eh? How do you specifically know that other than to take a guess that it was (like I did). I'm sure Shep used the HUD in the PJ to determine where to "land" the PJ and of course logic would dictate it was the next room or at least very close, but it can't be said with certainty, imo. :P
i can't it's just my opinion.

LoneStar1836
July 24th, 2008, 09:58 AM
And I disagree. From Suspicion
"Without inertial dampening we'd be hit by so many gees our eyes'd pop, the skin'd pull away from our faces, our brains'd squish up to the back of our skulls and our internal organs would be crushed into these chairs."
Which indicates the jumpers can fly at incredible speeds so the impact would be amazingly strong.Never said that PJs couldn't fly incredibly fast.

But by your description there, it only raises the question that those within the jumper could/would at least suffer a horrible death if a PJ was crashed at such a high speed. (It seemed to kill the ones in This Mortal Coil or at least knock them out.) Do inertial dampeners work during crashes? If Shep were really going that fast, he should have died upon impact. :S As apparently spaceships hardly ever come equipped with safety belts and airbags. :P




Leverage.But why would it feel the need to have any kind of leverage? Especially if everything is first viewed as a non threat until it is attacked.

Why would it taunt the others with the fact that all it had to do was squeeze its little tentacles a bit tighter and Ronon would die if it didn't at least consider the possibility that there might be another attempt to harm it.



I never used that as a reasoning. I'm using the fact that IMO the entity was stunned by the impact.Can't be a fact and an opinion. :P I'm basing my arguments on what JM has stated.


Fan writes: “Also why didnt the tendrils attack him as they had ronon the moment he got out of the jumper?”

Answer: In the case of Ronon, he was a direct threat to them, firing at the wall of tendrils and causing some sustained serious damage. In Sheppard’s case, it is the jumper that causes the brief but sudden damage. By the time the ramp has lowered and Sheppard has stepped out into the room, HE is no longer perceived as a threat - until he delivers the cure.

I'm just not buying it...except to tell myself that this was evidently not the brightest entity on the block.

FallenAngelII
July 24th, 2008, 10:23 AM
I didn't say it didn't I said it was stuned which is how he was able to give it the antidote
Why would it be stunned by John plowing through a small part of it?


Wrong it was the main part.
Um, no? The main part would be where Jennifer is. As you've pointed outyourself, John did not crash into the same room as Jennifer.


She didn't see the syringe.
She didn't see Radek either... nor Ronon. It's pretty clear the creature doesn't need Jennifer's eyes to see.

Mitchell82
July 24th, 2008, 10:39 AM
Why would it be stunned by John plowing through a small part of it?
I would hardly call this small.http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t63/gatefan7882/vlcsnap-3605344.png



Um, no? The main part would be where Jennifer is. As you've pointed outyourself, John did not crash into the same room as Jennifer.
No but he was close and as pointed out above it was a big part of it.



She didn't see Radek either... nor Ronon. It's pretty clear the creature doesn't need Jennifer's eyes to see.
I'll concede that point.

FallenAngelII
July 24th, 2008, 11:22 AM
I would hardly call this small.http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t63/gatefan7882/vlcsnap-3605344.png
Size is relative. Compare that little hole to the rest of the creature by that point (it was huge). It wasn't the core since the core would be Jennifer and what's growing right around her or inside of her.

Mitchell82
July 24th, 2008, 11:36 AM
Size is relative. Compare that little hole to the rest of the creature by that point (it was huge). It wasn't the core since the core would be Jennifer and what's growing right around her or inside of her.

Maybe so but I still believe it was a pretty substantial part of the entity.

Mitchell82
July 24th, 2008, 11:40 AM
Never said that PJs couldn't fly incredibly fast.

But by your description there, it only raises the question that those within the jumper could/would at least suffer a horrible death if a PJ was crashed at such a high speed. (It seemed to kill the ones in This Mortal Coil or at least knock them out.) Do inertial dampeners work during crashes? If Shep were really going that fast, he should have died upon impact. :S As apparently spaceships hardly ever come equipped with safety belts and airbags. :P
The inertial dampeners would prevent that as well as it appeared the shields were active as well.




But why would it feel the need to have any kind of leverage? Especially if everything is first viewed as a non threat until it is attacked.

Why would it taunt the others with the fact that all it had to do was squeeze its little tentacles a bit tighter and Ronon would die if it didn't at least consider the possibility that there might be another attempt to harm it.
To get what it wanted, more power and less resitence.



Can't be a fact and an opinion. :P I'm basing my arguments on what JM has stated.
Bad choice of words on my part.




I'm just not buying it...except to tell myself that this was evidently not the brightest entity on the block.
I disagree.

FallenAngelII
July 24th, 2008, 12:08 PM
Maybe so but I still believe it was a pretty substantial part of the entity.
It had gone down the entire tower, into the lower levels and straight for the ZPM (I think). We didn't even get to see all of the tower and the hole was still not even 10% the size of what was visible of the thing. If I cut off a part of your arm, you'll still be able to react and shoot me to death (through the pain) if you had 29 other arms all wielding guns.

LoneStar1836
July 24th, 2008, 02:20 PM
The inertial dampeners would prevent that as well as it appeared the shields were active as well. It was already being argued in another thread that PJs do not normally have shields. Or that's not a common function unless you specifically rig them to have one.


On the topic of dampener, then why do other crashes have them being thrown around? Grace Under Pressure comes to mind first...because I can't remember if the PJ in This Mortal Coil was shot down or what when it crashed.





To get what it wanted, more power and less resitence.So it was tired of them getting in its way and trying to stop it? Then why does it just totally ignore Shep because it didn't see him as a threat (according to JM) if it was a forward thinking creature that was adapting to the environment?

You don't have to answer that as we are going in circles here :P because I'm not sure you are seeing my point or I'm just totally off in my own little world where I find it difficult to comprehend this thing's behavior at the end when I consider its past actions.

Avenger
July 24th, 2008, 04:07 PM
John had just crashed through the wall, wounding it. It didn't even touch the jumper or John. It supposedly interacts with Jennifer's brain to identify who's hostile and who isn't.

Since this is a living with with a consciousness and such, a big crash could have stunned it in the same way hitting someone in the head with a 2x4 would stun a person.

FallenAngelII
July 24th, 2008, 04:18 PM
Since this is a living with with a consciousness and such, a big crash could have stunned it in the same way hitting someone in the head with a 2x4 would stun a person.
Only it was tiny when compared to its total mass at the time and it wasn't even a hit on the head since it wasn't in the same room as Jennifer.

Ncc-72452
July 24th, 2008, 06:42 PM
Force = Mass x Velocity

Jumpers can fly far faster than an airliner, especially a slow moving airliner crashing into a building.

Ahhhhhh....

Force = Mass X Acceleration!!!!

Mass X Velocity = MOMENTUM!!!!

I have to say that the notion of a Puddle Jumper toppling the WTC is absurd. Have you ever heard of an exit wound??? It the Puddle Jumper was going all out, it would shoot strait through the building!!! It doesn't have the cross sectional area necessary to impart enough force from its mass and acceleration to cause a catastrophic structural collapse.

Based on the logic of your argument, it would be possible to accelerate a toothpick to a sufficient enough velocity to topple a house. No. The toothpick would disintegrate on impact. Even it the toothpick was made of depleted uranium, or neutronium, it would simply shoot straight through! In fact, certain bullets are designed to "tumble" upon impact to reduce the probability of an exit wound or at least cause more damage by increasing the cross sectional area of the round upon impact.

With a straight trajectory, there is no way enough structural supports could be destroyed to cause the Word Trade Center to collapse from an impact with an object the size of a minivan!

Besides, the Jumper was going no where near its max velocity. It's a space ship capable of traveling to other planets in 16 hours. Compared to the size of Atlantis, it would have shot far outside the city in seconds. Its velocity clearly is not that high because it had only slid a few meters inside the room housing the creature after the impact.

As for the creature being stunned by the impact, I can buy that, to a point. I cannot buy that it would be stunned during the forty someodd seconds it takes for the jumper hatch to open, or the fifteen or so seconds that Shep spent looking around, or the thirty odd seconds it took for him to walk across the room, or to the next room, or two rooms over... Or the 15 seconds it took him to inject her. I find it a little hard to swallow that it was in a 'stunned' state from a blunt force trauma for so long.

FallenAngelII
July 24th, 2008, 06:56 PM
Stuff.
Thank you for summing up my thoughts entirely. I was about to mention that the jumper was going nowhere near its max velocity, but I didn't for a while for some reason.

And your reasons for not buying it being stunned are the exact same as mine. If shoot you in the chest, short of you becoming paralyzed, you recover after a brief moment. And this wasn't even a shot to the chest (relatively speaking).

Also, stunned? What about how it still had Ronon pinned? If it had been magically stunned and unable to react or move, the hold would've lessened on Ronon and he could've broken free.

Mitchell82
July 24th, 2008, 07:02 PM
It was already being argued in another thread that PJs do not normally have shields. Or that's not a common function unless you specifically rig them to have one.
Which he obviously did see the blue shield fluxuation in this pic?http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t63/gatefan7882/vlcsnap-3907681.png Not to mention ever since they realized that you could do that they have upgraded all the jumpers with shields as everytime they show a jumper being shot att it has shields up.



On the topic of dampener, then why do other crashes have them being thrown around? Grace Under Pressure comes to mind first...because I can't remember if the PJ in This Mortal Coil was shot down or what when it crashed.
You will be thrown around you just won't die from crashing.





So it was tired of them getting in its way and trying to stop it? Then why does it just totally ignore Shep because it didn't see him as a threat (according to JM) if it was a forward thinking creature that was adapting to the environment?

You don't have to answer that as we are going in circles here :P because I'm not sure you are seeing my point or I'm just totally off in my own little world where I find it difficult to comprehend this thing's behavior at the end when I consider its past actions.
We just don't agree so it's pointless to debate it.

LoneStar1836
July 24th, 2008, 07:22 PM
Which he obviously did see the blue shield fluxuation in this pic?http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t63/gatefan7882/vlcsnap-3907681.png Not to mention ever since they realized that you could do that they have upgraded all the jumpers with shields as everytime they show a jumper being shot att it has shields up.Well you need to go find that other thread (umm here it is (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=56724)) and mention that because I thought he used a shielded PJ when he did that, but others were saying that he didn't.



You will be thrown around you just won't die from crashing.lol. It's that simple, eh?



We just don't agree so it's pointless to debate it.Isn't that usually the whole point of a debate...talking over different view points? Cuz if we agreed on everything, then what's the point?

The conversation would go:

Me: "I agree."
You: "I agree, too."

And that would be it. Not very interesting, imo.


But yeah I think we have discussed it enough.

Mitchell82
July 28th, 2008, 05:17 PM
Well you need to go find that other thread (umm here it is (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=56724)) and mention that because I thought he used a shielded PJ when he did that, but others were saying that he didn't.
I don't know how you can't tell that he is. That blue hue is that of a shield.



lol. It's that simple, eh?
Actually yeah it is. Inertial dampaners will protect from the massive g-forces due to the speed of the jumpers but a huge impact will still jar the people inside.



Isn't that usually the whole point of a debate...talking over different view points? Cuz if we agreed on everything, then what's the point?

The conversation would go:

Me: "I agree."
You: "I agree, too."

And that would be it. Not very interesting, imo.


But yeah I think we have discussed it enough.
True but once a discussion gets repetitive...;)