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Time Traveling "Plot Hole" of Epic Proportions!

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    Time Traveling "Plot Hole" of Epic Proportions!

    OK, so listen up. With only one alternate timeline, things are already complicated. But the writers can't ever just settle on "complicated" and had to go straight for "plot hole central".

    So in "The Last Man", John gets sent into the future. Now, keep in mind that while he gets help from future!Rodney, this timeline is identical to John's timeline, i.e. the canon timeline, the one we're currently following.

    In this timeline, we never found Teyla. Sam never went back to Earth and stayed behind dying a herioc death in battle. Yaddi yaddi yadda. But wait... if the timeline was identical, shouldn't Ba'al still have traveled back in time and changed things?

    Or did Sam not returning to the Milky Way somehow Chaos Theory away Ba'als capture (by the Tok'ra)? Now, let's for the sake of argument assume Ba'al was captured. Ba'al should've still gone back in time and changed it. Daniel, Cam, Vala and maybe Jack would've still managed to get to the gate and go back in time (or so we assume).

    But wait, without Sam there, who would've done the necessary calculations to send Cam back to the right moment in time. No one, that's why. In the "epic" battle at the end of alt!Continuum, SG-1 would've just died. And thus, when John arrived in the future, he should've arrived in an alternate timeline, one where there was no one to help him get back to his own time.

    Of course, this can be explained away with "Without Sam's return, the Tok'ra wouldn't have captured Ba'al". But just sit down and moment and contemplate this all.

    I doubt that Sam not returning to the Milky Way would somehow make it so that the last Ba'al clone or Ba'al himself were never captured and, thus, no Ba'al ever went back in time to change it.




    #2
    Its incredibly complicated, not the least because the storylines were written by different people.

    However, Ba'al's story of Continuum was simply a "detour" that merged back with the original storyline. Carter was never removed as Atlantis leader (because Michael was still a huge threat). She visited the Tok'ra to oversee the extraction, her alternate self fixed the timeline, and she rejoined Atlantis. Then she was removed, got the Phoenix, and died heroically.

    Surprisingly enough, no plothole.

    Comment


      #3
      it seems that in the alternate timeline where sam didn't return to earth the last Ba'al clone was never captured and thus the failsafe was never used. This isn't a plot hole. We don't know who captured the last Ba'al clone. If it was SG-1 with Sams help then maybe without her help they never cuaght him.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Ranlier View Post
        However, Ba'al's story of Continuum was simply a "detour" that merged back with the original storyline. Carter was never removed as Atlantis leader (because Michael was still a huge threat). She visited the Tok'ra to oversee the extraction, her alternate self fixed the timeline, and she rejoined Atlantis. Then she was removed, got the Phoenix, and died heroically.
        Only she never returned to Earth. With the galaxy in turmoil and fighting a losing war, I doubt she'd return to Earth just to oversee a simple extraction ceremony, especially when her being there or not has absolutely no bearing on the results.

        It would be a waste of 6 precious weeks or precious ZPM power.

        Originally posted by redrama9 View Post
        it seems that in the alternate timeline where sam didn't return to earth the last Ba'al clone was never captured and thus the failsafe was never used. This isn't a plot hole. We don't know who captured the last Ba'al clone. If it was SG-1 with Sams help then maybe without her help they never cuaght him.
        So because Sam never returned, the last Ba'al clone was never, ever captured and thus, Ba'al never ever felt the need to tamper with the timeline for personal gain?

        Also, doesn't anyone read OPs anymore? I specifically said that it's a "plot hole" (note the quotation marks) and that there are possible explanations, but that we should just contemplate it all for moment to see how much BS these time travel episodes contain.

        I even mentioned the possibility of the last clone never having been captured because of Sam staying in Atlantis.



        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
          Only she never returned to Earth. With the galaxy in turmoil and fighting a losing war, I doubt she'd return to Earth just to oversee a simple extraction ceremony, especially when her being there or not has absolutely no bearing on the results.

          It would be a waste of 6 precious weeks or precious ZPM power.
          Sam already goes back to Earth to face the IOA and be removed or not removed, in EITHER timeline. Ba'al is just a detour that fixes itself, and she goes back to the next battle.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Ranlier View Post
            Sam already goes back to Earth to face the IOA and be removed or not removed, in EITHER timeline.
            Did you see "The Last Man", wherein John disappeared permanently in the alternate timeline, thus screwing things up by a lot? For some reason, Ba'al never changed the timeline as it went on for 50,000 or whatever years, Sam remained on Atlantis, got her own ship and did a lot of covert missions against Michael.

            Even if she was called back for an evaluation, she wouldn't have wasted time going to an extraction ceremony, what with being needed in the Milky Way, anyway.

            So if an extraction ceremony had taken place, she probably wouldn't have been there just to be there. Then again, no extraction ceremony did take place for whatever reason.

            I'm just pointing out that they need to stop using time travel as a plot device because they're just so bad at handling causality. I mean, come on, did they really need to do it for both the season 4 season finale and the 2nd SG-1 movie, both of which are released shortly after one another?



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              #7
              Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
              Did you see "The Last Man", wherein John disappeared permanently in the alternate timeline, thus screwing things up by a lot? For some reason, Ba'al never changed the timeline as it went on for 50,000 or whatever years, Sam remained on Atlantis, got her own ship and did a lot of covert missions against Michael.

              Even if she was called back for an evaluation, she wouldn't have wasted time going to an extraction ceremony, what with being needed in the Milky Way, anyway.

              So if an extraction ceremony had taken place, she probably wouldn't have been there just to be there. Then again, no extraction ceremony did take place for whatever reason.

              I'm just pointing out that they need to stop using time travel as a plot device because they're just so bad at handling causality. I mean, come on, did they really need to do it for both the season 4 season finale and the 2nd SG-1 movie, both of which are released shortly after one another?
              The magical words are if and probably...

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by silly sally View Post
                The magical words are if and probably...
                The magical words are:
                "Of course, this can be explained away with..."
                "I specifically said that it's a "plot hole" (note the quotation marks) and that there are possible explanations, but that we should just contemplate it all for moment to see how much BS these time travel episodes contain."
                and
                "I'm just pointing out that they need to stop using time travel as a plot device because they're just so bad at handling causality."



                Comment


                  #9
                  My head just exploded...
                  Meh.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Back to the point, what would happen to John if Ba'al had indeed gone back in time and changed the past without Sam going back in time with SG-1 to reset things, thus, getting the timeline stuck like that forever?

                    John travels through Stargate -> disappears -> Ba'al changes the timeline, there never was a Stargate program -> John arrives 40,000 years into the future

                    Now, at this point, Ba'al had already rearranged the timeline. So what would happen to John? Where would he end up? At the bottom of the ocean since no one ever raised Atlantis? Would John be the paradox now, stuck forever in a Pegasus galaxy without a Stargate expedition or a Failsafe courtesy to Janus (because Elizabeth never came to Atlantis and went back in time and met Janus), so he'd have to abandon the city forever and be stuck in the Pegasus galaxy alone, forever?

                    Just think about it. There's been too much time traveling in Stargate...



                    Comment


                      #11
                      Too much timetravelling as a result of TPTB reusing old ideas and formulas, never creating something new and original for a few seasons now.
                      Meh.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        You're right... Never thought about it.
                        Mia: Don't you hate that?
                        Vincent: Hate what?
                        Mia: Uncomfortable silences. Why do we feel it's necessary to yak about bullsh*t in order to be comfortable?
                        Vincent: I don't know. That's a good question.
                        Mia: That's when you know you've found somebody really special: you can just shut the f*** up for a minute and comfortably share silence.
                        - Pulp Fiction

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Ranlier View Post
                          Sam already goes back to Earth to face the IOA and be removed or not removed, in EITHER timeline. Ba'al is just a detour that fixes itself, and she goes back to the next battle.
                          i agree with this, it appears she went back to earth for an evaluation, was sacked, attended the ceremony and then was given command of the ship and returned to atlantis via her new ship to fight micheal.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by redrama9 View Post
                            i agree with this, it appears she went back to earth for an evaluation, was sacked, attended the ceremony and then was given command of the ship and returned to atlantis via her new ship to fight micheal.
                            Personal interpretations aside, what would've happened if Ba'al had succeeded in erasing the Stargate program? Would John have exited the gate in a submerged Atlantis since it was never raised?

                            And due to Elizabeth never going back in time, it will not have the failsafe, thus getting lose forever.

                            That's what I think would happen. John would become a paradox since he'd travel into a future where he's not supposed to be where he is.



                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
                              Did you see "The Last Man", wherein John disappeared permanently in the alternate timeline, thus screwing things up by a lot? For some reason, Ba'al never changed the timeline as it went on for 50,000 or whatever years, Sam remained on Atlantis, got her own ship and did a lot of covert missions against Michael.

                              Even if she was called back for an evaluation, she wouldn't have wasted time going to an extraction ceremony, what with being needed in the Milky Way, anyway.
                              Ok, we need to put things in order- Sam was recalled to Earth within a few weeks of John's disappearance. Now, regardless of whether John came back in time to put things on a new course, Carter still returns to Earth for evaluation.

                              In our timeline, there are no pending threats, and Woolsey releives her.
                              In Alt-Timeline, she is found to be needed to prosecute the conflict with Michael further.

                              Either way, she visits the Tok'ra, and sees the ceremony (while her Alt!Self saves the timeline unknownst to her).

                              She then returns to Atlantis, and THEN Michael is finally advanced enough in his research to blow everything to hell.

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