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Kebab Gud
July 19th, 2008, 06:17 PM
So right.. SPOILERS!!!

So.. The seed takes place about a month after Search and Rescue.. and I guess the events of Continuum happened within that time..

and we know everyone on the planet in S&R was infected, including carter..

So why didn't she change in the year she spent in the alternate timeline???


HA!!!

Avenger
July 19th, 2008, 06:25 PM
I don't think we know exactly when Continuum took place. Could very well have been after the events of The Seed.

Amakusa
July 19th, 2008, 07:31 PM
So why didn't she <spoiler for Continuum>???


HA!!!

Uh, nice spoilers.

Jack_Bauer
July 19th, 2008, 07:33 PM
I don't think we know exactly when Continuum took place. Could very well have been after the events of The Seed.

Here, here.

Infinatus
July 19th, 2008, 08:55 PM
So right.. SPOILERS!!!

So.. The seed takes place about a month after Search and Rescue.. and I guess the events of Continuum happened within that time..

and we know everyone on the planet in S&R was infected, including carter..

So why didn't she change in the year she spent in the alternate timeline???


HA!!!

Plot hole debunked.

Continuum spoilers:
Carter dies in the alternate timeline.

jjit
July 19th, 2008, 09:15 PM
Plot hole debunked.

Continuum spoilers:
Carter dies in the alternate timeline.

but she was in alternate timeline whole year

gopher65
July 19th, 2008, 09:37 PM
Gahhh! Spoiler tags please! Sheesh.

Ranlier
July 19th, 2008, 10:07 PM
Statistically speaking, some portion of the population will be immune to any particular pathogen.

More likely, however, is that the "seed" incubates until it senses sufficient power to grow from (i.e., Atlantis power grid), which did not exist in Alt-Earth. Much as a plant seed will never grow in the dark.

Kebab Gud
July 20th, 2008, 03:35 AM
I don't think we know exactly when Continuum took place. Could very well have been after the events of The Seed.

Given that she went back to earth just for the events in Continuum its safe to say it happened sometime withing that month..


Uh, nice spoilers.

the third word of my post was "SPOILERS".. so if you are to dumb to ignor that warning.. then its your own fault

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 04:35 AM
So right.. SPOILERS!!!

So.. The seed takes place about a month after Search and Rescue.. and I guess the events of Continuum happened within that time..

and we know everyone on the planet in S&R was infected, including carter..

So why didn't she change in the year she spent in the alternate timeline???


HA!!!
I can't believe no one's thought of this obvious argument yet:
Because it was an alternate timeline. In the Alternate Timeline, when the Atlantis expedition came to save Teyla, it was too late, she wasn't even there anymore. There was no self-destruct triggered, so the thingie didn't get released from its test tube or whatever.

Was Sam even there in the alternate timeline?

Kebab Gud
July 20th, 2008, 05:30 AM
I can't believe no one's thought of this obvious argument yet:
Because it was an alternate timeline. In the Alternate Timeline, when the Atlantis expedition came to save Teyla, it was too late, she wasn't even there anymore. There was no self-destruct triggered, so the thingie didn't get released from its test tube or whatever.

Was Sam even there in the alternate timeline?

The timeline didn't change until they where at Baals execution..
that's the entire point of time travel and alternate timelines..

so yes..
Carter in the start of Continuum and the one that jumped to the alternate timeline was the carter from seson4 or atlantis..

thats also the problem with timetravel episodes.. not everyone gets it

rarocks24
July 20th, 2008, 05:41 AM
I can't believe no one's thought of this obvious argument yet:
Because it was an alternate timeline. In the Alternate Timeline, when the Atlantis expedition came to save Teyla, it was too late, she wasn't even there anymore. There was no self-destruct triggered, so the thingie didn't get released from its test tube or whatever.

Was Sam even there in the alternate timeline?

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10071/normal_picard-no-facepalm.jpg

Jack_Bauer
July 20th, 2008, 05:54 AM
I can't believe no one's thought of this obvious argument yet:
Because it was an alternate timeline. In the Alternate Timeline, when the Atlantis expedition came to save Teyla, it was too late, she wasn't even there anymore. There was no self-destruct triggered, so the thingie didn't get released from its test tube or whatever.

Was Sam even there in the alternate timeline?

What were you thinking when you wrote that post? Sheesh...

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 06:14 AM
The timeline didn't change until they where at Baals execution..
that's the entire point of time travel and alternate timelines..
Have you seen "The Last Man" (Atlantis 4x20)? That one involved time travel and an alternate timeline as well. In that alternate timeline, Sam didn't randomy walk into Michael's base and trigger the self-destruct, thus prompting the patogen to jump into her and others.

Heck, in that timeline, she didn't even go back to Earth, so she wasn't even present for the events of "Continuum".

Edit: I misread the OP. I thought he wondered why the creature didn't develop within Sam in the alternate timeline of "The Last Man". Sorry.

In this case, the answer would be "There could be any number of physiological reasons", as Woolsey stated.

Kebab Gud
July 20th, 2008, 06:37 AM
In this case, the answer would be "There could be any number of physiological reasons", as Woolsey stated.

a YEAR!.. Keller started after about a month .. Lorend and a few others a short time after that..
its safe to say that the incubation period is somewhere around a month.. while Carter went a FULL YEAR! and nothing..

this is a clear...


PLOTHOLE!!

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 06:43 AM
This is incredibly painful to read. The Carter to see at the end of Continuum is 'our' Carter, the Carter to see in the rest of the movie isn't. For all intents and purposes, in relation to 'our' timeline, the events of Continuum never happened. Carter wasn't gone for a year, this thread makes no sense.

Jack_Bauer
July 20th, 2008, 06:45 AM
This is incredibly painful to read. The Carter to see at the end of Continuum is 'our' Carter, the Carter to see in the rest of the movie isn't. For all intents and purposes, in relation to 'our' timeline, the events of Continuum never happened. Carter wasn't gone for a year, this thread makes no sense.

You've got to be kidding me.......

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 06:49 AM
The reality you see at the beginning of Continuum isn't 'our' reality, she might never have contracted the pathogen at all in that one.

Jack_Bauer
July 20th, 2008, 06:51 AM
The reality you see at the beginning of Continuum isn't 'our' reality, she might never have contracted the pathogen at all in that one.

Incorrect.

It begins as our reality and then changes as they travel into the alternate timeline where the Stargate was never uncovered. Sam, Daniel and Cam travel between realties, and if she had the pathogen, she would have taken it with her.

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 06:54 AM
Incorrect.

It begins as our reality and then changes as they travel into the alternate timeline where the Stargate was never uncovered. Sam, Daniel and Cam travel between realties, and if she had the pathogen, she would have taken it with her.

False. The only reality that is ours is the one at the end of the film.

Jack_Bauer
July 20th, 2008, 06:58 AM
Yes, BUT (and this is where you have to pay attention), the Sam Carter at the beginning of the film, the one that got stuck in the timeline where Ba'al destroys the Earth, had the same past as the Sam Carter we are left with at the end of the movie. Meaning that both of these Carters went to Atlantis, both were in the lab with the pathogen and both could develop the syptoms.

That clear enough for you?

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 07:00 AM
Yes, BUT (and this is where you have to pay attention), the Sam Carter at the beginning of the film, the one that got stuck in the timeline where Ba'al destroys the Earth, had the same past as the Sam Carter we are left with at the end of the movie. Meaning that both of these Carters went to Atlantis, both were in the lab with the pathogen and both could develop the syptoms.

That clear enough for you?

How could you possibly know that?

Jack_Bauer
July 20th, 2008, 07:03 AM
How could you possibly know that?

Cos i'm not an idiot...

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 07:04 AM
Could have fooled me.

Jack_Bauer
July 20th, 2008, 07:05 AM
Could have fooled me.

Nah i prefer to just prove you wrong...

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 07:05 AM
This is incredibly painful to read. The Carter to see at the end of Continuum is 'our' Carter, the Carter to see in the rest of the movie isn't. For all intents and purposes, in relation to 'our' timeline, the events of Continuum never happened. Carter wasn't gone for a year, this thread makes no sense.
The two timelines were identical up until that point, though. Everything was identical, down to who was present and what had been said.


a YEAR!.. Keller started after about a month .. Lorend and a few others a short time after that..
its safe to say that the incubation period is somewhere around a month.. while Carter went a FULL YEAR! and nothing..

this is a clear...

PLOTHOLE!!
It's only a plot hole if it cannot be explained. "There could be any number of physiological factors...". Why do some people develop AIDS shortly after contracting HIV yet there are people who've gone more than 10 years without developing AIDS?


Incorrect.

It begins as our reality and then changes as they travel into the alternate timeline where the Stargate was never uncovered. Sam, Daniel and Cam travel between realties, and if she had the pathogen, she would have taken it with her.
It begins as an alternate timeline. That alternate timeline is then changed and that SG-1 travels back in time and sets things right in another timeline; our timeline.


How could you possibly know that?
Because chaos theory states that if you change even the slighest thing, big changes might occur. And we are lead to believe at the end of the movie that that timeline is identical to the 1st one before everything changed.

This is where we go "Hmmm... you'd think big changes were going to happen what with Cam's influence on the timeline and all". But then again, this is speculation as there's no official source stating this.

So it's up for interpretation, really.

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 07:11 AM
Actually, other than the fact that SG-1 plus O'neill are at the extraction ceremony, there's nothing to even suggest that the two realities are similar, let alone to 'lead us to believe' that they're identical. Personally I'd rather reconcile it in such a way that makes sense, rather than makes a plot hole.

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 07:17 AM
Actually, other than the fact that SG-1 plus O'neill are at the extraction ceremony, there's nothing to even suggest that the two realities are similar, let alone to 'lead us to believe' that they're identical.
1) The way they're lined up, Jack, Sam, Cam, Daniel, Vala, even their positions both in relations to each other and in the temple.
2) Whatever the hell that is hanging on Jack's jacket.
3) Vala's hairpin.
4) Cam saying SG-1 and Jack had made it out like a big deal.

If something as big as Sam not contracting a patogen that might or might not be influencing her didn't happen, something as small as where in the temple each member is standing should've changed.

Meanwhile, what's there to suggest the two weren't identical?

Here's a better question: Shouldn't the world be super-doomed because of what happened in "The Last Man"? I'm gonna make a thread about this.

Jack_Bauer
July 20th, 2008, 07:18 AM
Meanwhile, what's there to suggest the two weren't identical?

Nothing, but watch jenks try to argue her/his point anyway...

redrama9
July 20th, 2008, 07:24 AM
It was mentioned in the episode that Carter was quarantined on earth. One can then assume that the quarantine of carter occurred before the execution of Ba'al.

Kebab Gud
July 20th, 2008, 07:29 AM
It was mentioned in the episode that Carter was quarantined on earth. One can then assume that the quarantine of carter occurred before the execution of Ba'al.
So carter went to earth for the execution about a month before the execution was to take place?

i find alot of flaws in your logic

Jack_Bauer
July 20th, 2008, 07:33 AM
So carter went to earth for the execution about a month before the execution was to take place?

i find alot of flaws in your logic

LOL you really what this to be a plot hole don't you? :D

Kebab Gud
July 20th, 2008, 07:35 AM
LOL you really what this to be a plot hole don't you? :D

no.. its just there is no way to debunk it..

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 07:45 AM
Nothing, but watch jenks try to argue her/his point anyway...

So if there's nothing indicating that the two time lines weren't identical, that means they were? That logic = FAIL. Besides, we know full well those two time lines aren't identical, Mitchell is proof.


no.. its just there is no way to debunk it..

I've already done it. The AU Carter at the beginning of Continuum never contracted anything the same way 'our' Carter did, simple.

Jack_Bauer
July 20th, 2008, 07:48 AM
So if there's nothing indicating that the two time lines weren't identical, that means they were? That logic = FAIL. Besides, we know full well those two time lines aren't identical, Mitchell is proof.



I've already done it. The AU Carter at the beginning of Continuum never contracted anything the same way 'our' Carter did, simple.

You haven't proven there is no plothole, just like you havn't proven the Carter at the beginning of the film didn't have the pathogen. But go on believing that you have, especially if it makes you feel real good.

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 07:49 AM
So carter went to earth for the execution about a month before the execution was to take place?
Sam didn't go back to Earth for the extraction. She went back for an evaluation of her 1st year on Atlantis, only there was no evaluation and they just went "Richard Woolsey's taking over your position! Hah!" on her.

Never once was it said she went back for the extraction.

This is a valid explanation. "Continuum" could've taken place after "The Seed".


So if there's nothing indicating that the two time lines weren't identical, that means they were? That logic = FAIL. Besides, we know full well those two time lines aren't identical, Mitchell is proof.
How is Mitchell proof of anything, really?

Kebab Gud
July 20th, 2008, 07:51 AM
So if there's nothing indicating that the two time lines weren't identical, that means they were? That logic = FAIL. Besides, we know full well those two time lines aren't identical, Mitchell is proof.
How?




I've already done it. The AU Carter at the beginning of Continuum never contracted anything the same way 'our' Carter did, simple.
That the dumbest thing i ever heard..
they ARE identical.. up to the point where baal goes back in time.. then the timline changes.. and it changes again when Camron goes back in time.. and that time it changes to a timeline identical with the ORIGINAL with the diffrenace that Baal died in the past

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 07:52 AM
Stuff.
Refer back to my previous post (the one directly above this one) where I explain that the explanation that "Continuum" could've taken place after "The Seed" is perfectly plausible.

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 07:55 AM
You haven't proven there is no plothole, just like you havn't proven the Carter at the beginning of the film didn't have the pathogen. But go on believing that you have, especially if it makes you feel real good.

Of course I haven't, I never said I had. But what I have done is explain away the plot hole, so it can be done. Whether that is how it actually happened or not we don't know.


Sam didn't go back to Earth for the extraction. She went back for an evaluation of her 1st year on Atlantis, only there was no evaluation and they just went "Richard Woolsey's taking over your position! Hah!" on her.

Never once was it said she went back for the extraction.

This is a valid explanation. "Continuum" could've taken place after "The Seed".


How is Mitchell proof of anything, really?

He's proof that the two time lines can't be identical.



That the dumbest thing i ever heard..
they ARE identical.. up to the point where baal goes back in time.. then the timline changes.. and it changes again when Camron goes back in time.. and that time it changes to a timeline identical with the ORIGINAL with the diffrenace that Baal died in the past

They can't be identical. 'Our' timeline has AltMitchell in it's past, the original one you see at the beginning of the film doesn't. Now that's not proof that Sam didn't contract the pathogen in the AU time line, but it certainly makes it a possibility, we've got no idea what sort of other differences there might have been.

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 08:00 AM
*edited* See new post. Too much spam.

Ranlier
July 20th, 2008, 08:01 AM
I'm going to repeat my firm belief that the Seed was unable to sense a sufficient energy source on Alternate Earth and chose to remain dormant.

Jack_Bauer
July 20th, 2008, 08:02 AM
Of course I haven't, I never said I had. But what I have done is explain away the plot hole, so it can be done. Whether that is how it actually happened we don't know.



He's proof that the two time lines can't be identical.



They can't be identical. 'Our' timeline has AltMitchell in it's past, the original one you see at the beginning of the film doesn't. Now that's not proof that Sam didn't contract the pathogen in the AU time line, but it certainly makes it a possibility, we've got no idea what sort of other differences there might have been.

This thread and the plothole it refers to is not concerned with Mitchell but the pathogen Sam contracted in her time in the PG. In no way have you developed a method whereby she did not have the pathogen at the beginning of the film. Face it, your wrong, stop embarrassing yourself.

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 08:05 AM
He's proof that the two time lines can't be identical.
O RLY? Because in "Moebius", there were alt!SG-1's thousands of years back in time (which means that a tiny change would have ripple effects that would incite huge changes in the timeline, yet everything was the same at the end of "Moebius"/"Threads", only with a fish jumping out of a water now (and even then, do we even know this is a change? Did we see the exact same scene without a fish jumping out of it? I don't remember seeing one).

Let's just agree on that the Stargate writers are too frivolous with causality.


They can't be identical. 'Our' timeline has AltMitchell in it's past, the original one you see at the beginning of the film doesn't. Now that's not proof that Sam didn't contract the pathogen in the AU time line, but it certainly makes it a possibility.
Yet they're so identical SG-1 + Vala are all dressed and lined up exactly the same way as at the beginning of the movie in exactly the same part of the temple.

It's also alluded to that previous dialogue is identical.

You saying "alt!Michell in our!Timeline!" does not prove the two aren't identical, especially when there's so much that is identical and nothing that isn't.


This thread and the plothole it refers to is not concerned with Mitchell but the pathogen Sam contracted in her time in the PG. In no way have you developed a method whereby she did not have the pathogen at the beginning of the film. Face it, your wrong, stop embarrassing yourself.
But the possibility of "Continuum" taking place after "The Seed" is still plausible, possible and probable.

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 08:06 AM
This thread and the plothole it refers to is not concerned with Mitchell but the pathogen Sam contracted in her time in the PG. In no way have you developed a method whereby she did not have the pathogen at the beginning of the film. Face it, your wrong, stop embarrassing yourself.

You're the one embarrassing yourself. All we know is that 'our' Sam has the pathogen, there's no way of knowing the AU Sam did too. If you have a way of proving this, feel free to enlighten us.


Yet they're so identical SG-1 + Vala are all dressed and lined up exactly the same way as at the beginning of the movie in exactly the same part of the temple.

It's also alluded to that previous dialogue is identical.

You saying "alt!Michell in our!Timeline!" does not prove the two aren't identical,

Of course it does. How can they be identical, if one has AltMitchell and one doesn't? If something happened in one time line, and not in another, how can they be the same?



especially when there's so much that is identical and nothing that isn't.

None of the scenes overlap, so there's nothing that's identical.

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 08:12 AM
Of course it does. How can they be identical, if one has AltMitchell and one doesn't? If something happened in one time line, and not in another, how can they be the same?
Because the writers have zero respect for causality.


None of the scenes overlap, so there's nothing that's identical.
Are you doing this on purpose?

Start of the movie - Original Timeline
End of the our - Our Timeline

They were lined up in the same order, stood the exact same distance away from each other, were dressed the exact same way, down to Vala's choice of a hairpin and they were standing in the exact same spots in the temple.

Mitchell also mentioned the others leading him to believe it was a "big deal". These are all things that are identical. Meanwhile, you cannot pinpoint any specific difference other than "Well, there was alt!Michell!".

Jack_Bauer
July 20th, 2008, 08:14 AM
@ FallenAngelII: I agree the events of Continuum could have happened after 'the Seed', in fact I think you've convinced me that this is the most logical reason.

Points which support these points are:
Carter definently returned for the IOA briefing, not for the extraction ceremony.
We have no idea how long it takes to preper for the ceremony, Ba'al was placed in stasis afterall.

Jack_Bauer
July 20th, 2008, 08:15 AM
I gotta say, in relation to no one in particular, it is really frustrating when people are arguing for the sake of arguing *cough* jenks *cough*.

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 08:22 AM
Because the writers have zero respect for causality.


Are you doing this on purpose?

Start of the movie - Original Timeline
End of the our - Our Timeline

They were lined up in the same order, stood the exact same distance away from each other, were dressed the exact same way, down to Vala's choice of a hairpin and they were standing in the exact same spots in the temple.

Mitchell also mentioned the others leading him to believe it was a "big deal". These are all things that are identical. Meanwhile, you cannot pinpoint any specific difference other than "Well, there was alt!Michell!".

No, but then I don't need to, that is enough to conclude the two time lines are inherently different, no matter what. There's no evidence that they're identical, because they can't be, it's impossible. Now for all I know by the time we get to the extraction process the time lines could have worked out in the same way, but we don't know that, and no matter how many irrelevant similarities you list, there's no way of knowing just how similar the time lines actually are. Now we know they're different in at least one way, so why not another? Why couldn't AU Sam not have contracted the disease? I'm not even saying that that's the case, just that it could be. Have you actually got any evidence that debunks this theory? Because if you have you're yet to post it.


I gotta say, in relation to no one in particular, it is really frustrating when people are arguing for the sake of arguing *cough* jenks *cough*.

Unable to refute anything I've said so resorting to childish posts like these? Can't say I'm surprised. :rolleyes:

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 08:35 AM
No, but then I don't need to, that is enough to conclude the two time lines are inherently different, no matter what. There's no evidence that they're identical, because they can't be, it's impossible.
Stop ignoring the many identical features in the movie.


Now for all I know by the time we get to the extraction process the time lines could have worked out in the same way, but we don't know that, and no matter how many irrelevant similarities you list, there's no way of knowing just how similar the time lines actually are. Now we know they're different in at least one way, so why not another? Why couldn't AU Sam not have contracted the disease? I'm not even saying that that's the case, just that it could be. Have you actually got any evidence that debunks this theory? Because if you have you're yet to post it.
So we'll just disregard your theory, then.

Zevan
July 20th, 2008, 09:01 AM
@ FallenAngelII: I agree the events of Continuum could have happened after 'the Seed', in fact I think you've convinced me that this is the most logical reason.

Points which support these points are:
Carter definently returned for the IOA briefing, not for the extraction ceremony.
We have no idea how long it takes to preper for the ceremony, Ba'al was placed in stasis afterall.


I think she did return to Earth for the IOA evaluation AND the extraction ceremony as she told Rodney before leaving that the SGC had captured 'THE LAST' Baal and they want SG1 to make an appearance..

Obviously interrogations where over and she joins SG1 for the extraction ceremony..

Of course it is still debatable how long is needed to prepare for the 3hr song of Balls crimes.. :p

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 09:19 AM
Obviously interrogations where over and she joins SG1 for the extraction ceremony...
It's not obvious at all. For one thing, there was no chance in Hell the Ba'al clone's symbiote was going to get out of it alive. They were planning on extracting it all along. That's what they do with captured Goa'uld.

So it's not like they were going to maybe release the clone after the interrogations. The minute that clone was captured, it's symbiote's fate was sealed.

I also doubt the IOA just went "Oh, the last Ba'al clone has been captured! Let's have an evaluation of Carter's accomplishments in the Pegasus Galaxy/remove her from her post!". The two just happened to almost coincide with a few weeks inbetween them.

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 09:45 AM
Stop ignoring the many identical features in the movie.

I'm not ignoring them, it's just that all the 'features' you've mentioned are totally irrelevant. The similarities in the time lines don't prove anything, it's the differences that do.



So we'll just disregard your theory, then.


Why? It's still yet to be debunked, and given the events of The Seed makes a hell of a lot more sense that yours.

Jack_Bauer
July 20th, 2008, 09:48 AM
How do the events in the Seed make your theories more likely Jenks?

TBA
July 20th, 2008, 09:49 AM
It's a plothole, but the reason it's there is because 'Continuum' was written and filmed months before 'The Seed' was. Sheesh....

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 09:50 AM
I'm not ignoring them, it's just that all the 'features' you've mentioned are totally irrelevant. The similarities in the time lines don't prove anything, it's the differences that do.
Of which you've shown none. So what if there's an alt!Cam in the timeline? What if the alt!Cam didn't make any changes to the timeline other than preventing Ba'al from changing it?

That theory holds as much waters as yours since they both lack any evidence to back them up.

"Oh, there's an alt!Cam in the timeline, hence it must be different enough that Sam might have never done this or that! I have no proof to back this up, but I'll disregard your proof of identical events down to the millisecond because there's an alt!Cam in the picture!"


Why? It's still yet to be debunked, and given the events of The Seed makes a hell of a lot more sense that yours.
Or we could go with the other explanation; "The Seed" takes place before "Continuum". Or it remained dormant. Or, it did influence Sam and was just waiting for the right moment to start going all Hive on her, but then the timeline changed and it didn't like the change and wanted Sam to survive so it just let her do her thing. Or Sam eats lots of chocolate ice cream and the patogen loves chocolate ice cream and if it develops into a hive, then Sam will no longer be able to eat chocolate ice cream and it doesn't want that.

See. I can make up random theories with zero proof to back them up, too!

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 09:55 AM
How do the events in the Seed make your theories more likely Jenks?

AU Carter didn't start turning into a Hive.


Of which you've shown none. So what if there's an alt!Cam in the timeline? What if the alt!Cam didn't make any changes to the timeline other than preventing Ba'al from changing it?

That theory holds as much waters as yours since they both lack any evidence to back them up.

"Oh, there's an alt!Cam in the timeline, hence it must be different enough that Sam might have never done this or that! I have no proof to back this up, but I'll disregard your proof of identical events down to the millisecond because there's an alt!Cam in the picture!"

Have you read a word I've posted? I'm not arguing that my theory is what happened, we've got no way of knowing that, all I've said is that my theory is possible, and that if it were right it would explain away the plot hole.


Or we could go with the other explanation; "The Seed" takes place before "Continuum".

Indeed. That would be an easier way around it.

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 10:31 AM
Have you read a word I've posted? I'm not arguing that my theory is what happened, we've got no way of knowing that, all I've said is that my theory is possible, and that if it were right it would explain away the plot hole.
Except you say "It's not identical! Look at my proof, there's an alt!Cam!".

And then I go "What about these many elements which are identical and minutae and should be different?" and which point you just go "Irrelevant!". You're clearly trying to prove your theory here and disprove mine.

You can't both have your cake and eat it.

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 10:42 AM
Except you say "It's not identical! Look at my proof, there's an alt!Cam!".

And then I go "What about these many elements which are identical and minutae and should be different?" and which point you just go "Irrelevant!". You're clearly trying to prove your theory here and disprove mine.

You can't both have your cake and eat it.

I'm not trying to prove my theory, only that's it's possible. And as for AltMitchell, yes, him being in one time line and not the other means that they're not identical time lines, how could they be? And all similarities are irrelevant, if there are any differences at all, however small, then they're not identical. The only question is how different the might be, and that we don't know.

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 11:20 AM
I'm not trying to prove my theory, only that's it's possible. And as for AltMitchell, yes, him being in one time line and not the other means that they're not identical time lines, how could they be? And all similarities are irrelevant, if there are any differences at all, however small, then they're not identical. The only question is how different the might be, and that we don't know.
You're not? Then why do you insist on alt!Mitchell proving your theory? If you're just putting forth a theory, you just say so. "It's an unfounded theory".

When I say they're identical, I mean at the present time. original!SG-1's timeline was largely identical to that of our!SG-1's in season 8. Everything was exactly the same from what we could tell after "Moebius", only we saw an additional scene (fish leaping out of the water).

That's pretty "identical". Yes, thousands of years into the past, something happened to change it a bit, but it's largely identical right now.

wise one
July 20th, 2008, 11:34 AM
if she did have it, i would think it would of sprung like it did on keller and then affecting the nearest power source,if she was in stargate command the thing could tap into sgc power grid, or even feed of the traces of naq in the blood(probaly not)

or
maybe she had grown a immunity over years for the pathogen to realise she isnt the best host

or
maybe going into time and space a few times has given her some remarkable body defences that she could hold of the pathogen....okay i got that bit from Torchwood, when gets kidnapped and used as a test subject in which a alien parasite tries to take over her and her immune system fights it off because shes been travelling with the doctor so much..

or
they made continum and then sometime later the seed, writers must of forgot or were too lazy to come up with a clever way so they left it and decided the fans can speculate and confuse themselves and others

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 12:31 PM
they made continum and then sometime later the seed, writers must of forgot or were too lazy to come up with a clever way so they left it and decided the fans can speculate and confuse themselves and others
"Continuum" was originally slated to take place right after AoT IIRC.

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 12:45 PM
You're not? Then why do you insist on alt!Mitchell proving your theory? If you're just putting forth a theory, you just say so. "It's an unfounded theory".

At no point did I say that AltMitchell proved my theory, only that it made my theory possible. Since the very beginning of this discussion all I've done is put forth a theory, if you've misinterpreted that then that's not my fault. As for unfounded, well it's no more unfounded than yours.


When I say they're identical, I mean at the present time. original!SG-1's timeline was largely identical to that of our!SG-1's in season 8. Everything was exactly the same from what we could tell after "Moebius", only we saw an additional scene (fish leaping out of the water).

That's pretty "identical". Yes, thousands of years into the past, something happened to change it a bit, but it's largely identical right now.

But we have no way of knowing that, I don't think the few short minutes at either end of the movie qualifies as evidence, let alone proof.

FallenAngelII
July 20th, 2008, 01:06 PM
But we have no way of knowing that, I don't think the few short minutes at either end of the movie qualifies as evidence, let alone proof.
Oh yes, the timelines somehow aligned so that everything was identical, down to movement, lighting, dialogue, natural phenomena, etc... but what do we know.

Maybe off-screen, Sam and Jack have been having an affair for years and have 4 love children. For all we know.

wise one
July 20th, 2008, 01:10 PM
"Continuum" was originally slated to take place right after AoT IIRC.

not what i ment, i ment filming itself, i wasnt talking about the timeline itself in stargate

sorry my fault

jenks
July 20th, 2008, 01:14 PM
Oh yes, the timelines somehow aligned so that everything was identical, down to movement, lighting, dialogue, natural phenomena, etc... but what do we know.

Maybe off-screen, Sam and Jack have been having an affair for years and have 4 love children. For all we know.

All of this is in your imagination. None of the scenes from the beginning of the movie and the end even overlap, the only similarities are that SG-1 + O'neill are attending the extraction ceremony. There was no, identical movement or dialogue so I've got no idea what you're referring to there. Though even if that did happen I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, yes it would be ridiculous if the time lines aligned exactly, but that's the point I've been making, not you, according to you the time lines are identical despite the glaringly obvious differences!

talyn2k1
July 20th, 2008, 02:26 PM
Oh yes, the timelines somehow aligned so that everything was identical, down to movement, lighting, dialogue, natural phenomena, etc... but what do we know.

Maybe off-screen, Sam and Jack have been having an affair for years and have 4 love children. For all we know.

The ONLY lasting difference between the timeline at the beginning of Continuum and the timeline at the end is that there is a Cameron Mitchell in the past.
Now we know that Cam is perfectly aware of the effects that he could have on the future just by his mere presence in the past, therefore he would do his best to ensure that the possibilities of him majorly changing the timeline.
Now with this in mind, it wasn't too clever to have a picture taken of himself with his grandfather, as even this could have unforeseen effects on the timeline, but assuming he lived out his life doing nothing spectacular and not meeting anyone from the team or anyone who would have a significant effect on the lives of anyone on the team, and so on and so forth, there is no reason to believe that his presence in the past would have any effect on the team.
I'm sure his presence changed someone's life, but there is nothing to say that would have any effect on the team, so from our perspective the only difference is the photo of him with his grandfather in the past as that is the only change that directly effects the show.

Now back to the subject of this thread, the Carter at the beginning of Continuum is the same Carter who walked in to Stargate Command at the end of Search & Rescue, therefore she would have been infected with the pathogen.
Now as she returned for both the extraction ceremony AND the IOA review, this leaves it open as to whether the events of Continuum occur before TS or after them.
As there are no distinct timelines referred to, it fits either way.

Assuming that The Seed occurs after Continuum, which would mean the Carter would have spent one year in the alternate timeline with the pathogen, it does raise the question as to why nothing happened. Although I think several plausible explanations have already been given in this thread so I won't repeat them.
If Continuum occurs after The Seed, then there's no problem as the pathogen has been cleared from her system before her year in the alternate timeline.

This whole subject is something that is open to interpretation.

There is no direct unarguable contradiction of canon and therefore this is no plothole.

SG13-NightOps
July 21st, 2008, 09:59 AM
if she did have it, i would think it would of sprung like it did on keller and then affecting the nearest power source,if she was in stargate command the thing could tap into sgc power grid, or even feed of the traces of naq in the blood(probaly not)
ZPMs hold more power than the entire US power grid (The Road Not Taken) so it would have taken much longer to grow too, lol. Considering we know it detects power sources and heads towards them, its possible that the outlets she sat near to watch TV were too small a source to even register.



they made continum and then sometime later the seed, writers must of forgot or were too lazy to come up with a clever way so they left it and decided the fans can speculate and confuse themselves and others

I think this is the most likely explaination. I can just see TPTB now, watching the final cut....

"OOOOOOOH CRAP!"
"Just pretend you didn't notice."

Ltcolshepjumper
July 21st, 2008, 10:23 AM
can we just accept the fact that the movie was never intended to take place after Season 4. And therefore, the pathogen was never accounted for? I think it's pointless to even call it a plothole, except for the fact that the writers didn't alter the episode to account for it. Bickering about it isn't going to help. And, I think it's safe to say that the events peceding the original ceremony are the same events preceding the final ceremony. Otherwise, we would have been told that. So, either Carter went back a month before the execution, or the events of Continuum happened before the Seed. Either way, it is a given that Carter would have developed symptoms, according to what she said at the end of S&R.

Constanza
July 21st, 2008, 12:59 PM
Jenks, FallenAngelII… now I’m all confused! Thanks! :lol:

Kebab Gud
July 21st, 2008, 01:09 PM
can we just accept the fact that the movie was never intended to take place after Season 4.

they may not have originaly intended that.. but its canon.. it is in between Search and Rescue and The Seed..

Uber
July 21st, 2008, 03:05 PM
can we just accept the fact that the movie was never intended to take place after Season 4. And therefore, the pathogen was never accounted for? I think it's pointless to even call it a plothole, except for the fact that the writers didn't alter the episode to account for it. Bickering about it isn't going to help. And, I think it's safe to say that the events peceding the original ceremony are the same events preceding the final ceremony. Otherwise, we would have been told that. So, either Carter went back a month before the execution, or the events of Continuum happened before the Seed. Either way, it is a given that Carter would have developed symptoms, according to what she said at the end of S&R.
no.. its just there is no way to debunk it..Unless Carter didn't show symptoms due to the fact that she hosted Jolinar.

SG-1 fans will probably remember that Carter has had to deal with several physiological changes over the years due to being snaked. She has an extremely high tolerance level towards sedatives, she has naqadah in her blood and can operate Goa'uld technology as well as sense the presence of another symbiote and she has a protein marker...which came in real handy in the episode "Legacy."

It's a given that people responded to the infection differently. Jennifer had an extremely low threshold toward the illness while most of the others went mostly symptom-free for the entire episode.

Avenger
July 21st, 2008, 06:25 PM
Given that she went back to earth just for the events in Continuum its safe to say it happened sometime withing that month..


No where has it been stated on screen or by anyone of any authority that Carter came back specifically for the events that happened in Continuum. So please, try again.

SG-Lover-SL
July 22nd, 2008, 05:20 AM
Hello everyone,

Forgive me...

But isn't Lord Baal's extraction on the 29th of this month?

Carter probably just got out of Quarantine....

Still a week to go...

FallenAngelII
July 22nd, 2008, 06:30 AM
Hello everyone,

Forgive me...

But isn't Lord Baal's extraction on the 29th of this month?

Carter probably just got out of Quarantine....

Still a week to go...
The release dates for the movies do not coincide with their placements in the timeline. For one thing, AoT was released several months after its place in the timeline.

Shkelton
July 22nd, 2008, 11:14 AM
Hi there,

So I have been reading this post and was just curious. Continuum is not out unily Juy 29th. How can you have such a detailed conversion about it when you have never watched it? Did I miss something? Was there an early showing, did you get an unofficial copy of the DVD?

Avenger
July 22nd, 2008, 12:23 PM
It was leaked online a few weeks back.

SG-Lover-SL
July 22nd, 2008, 04:56 PM
The release dates for the movies do not coincide with their placements in the timeline. For one thing, AoT was released several months after its place in the timeline.

Care to elaborate?

Jumper_One
July 22nd, 2008, 05:01 PM
Care to elaborate?

Continuum takes place after S&R

SG-Lover-SL
July 22nd, 2008, 05:22 PM
Continuum takes place after S&R

correct...

SEARCH AND RESCUE

Carter Gates back to earth. SG-1 to appear at Baal's extraction. Carter told to go fly a kite by woolsey


THE SEED

Carter Quarantined


When did Continuum happen?

Besides...If you want plot holes...

Anyone bothered to check the ending credits.... ;)


http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p453/SG-Lover-SL/SG-Movies/stargatecontinuum2008dvdripxvid-v4d.jpg

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p453/SG-Lover-SL/SG-Movies/StargateTheArkOfTruthWS2008XviDHHI1.jpg

Maybe there are 2 carters.....

Jumper_One
July 22nd, 2008, 05:25 PM
correct...

SEARCH AND RESCUE

Carter Gates back to earth. SG-1 to appear at Baal's extraction. Carter told to go fly a kite by woolsey


THE SEED

Carter Quarantined


When did Continuum happen?

Besides...If you want plot holes...

Anyone bothered to check the ending credits.... ;)


http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p453/SG-Lover-SL/SG-Movies/stargatecontinuum2008dvdripxvid-v4d.jpg

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p453/SG-Lover-SL/SG-Movies/StargateTheArkOfTruthWS2008XviDHHI1.jpg

Maybe there are 2 carters.....




yeah so? Continuum was supposed to take place before s4 but then AT decided to leave and TBTB changed it

Grimey
July 22nd, 2008, 05:44 PM
Why is everybody going on and on about alternate universe crap when the answer can be found in the episode (with a little logic to connect the dots.)

Keller was infected with a pathogen (virus) that caused her to fall ill.

What determines when sympotoms of a virus first appear? (Among many things), immune response. People with strong immune systems can stave off viral infections better than those without. This is why Magic Johnson shows very little sign of being HIV positive. Through a combonation of excercise, diet, and medication, he keeps his immune system in top shape.

Now, as was stated in the episode, Keller had been having a lot of long days/ sleepless nights trying to figure out a treatment for Carson. It's a well known fact that lack of sleep can depress the immune system.

So, the reason we only see symptoms in Keller is because she had a slightly/moderately/severly depressed immune system. Everyone with normal immune systems like Rodney, Shep, Ronan, or Sam (who may have had an enhanced immune system because of the Jolinar stuff) showed no symptoms at all.

We don't know the incubation time for this pathogen in a normal, healthy person, so it cannot be called a plot hole.

If someone else had gotten sick though....

SG-Lover-SL
July 22nd, 2008, 06:05 PM
yeah so? Continuum was supposed to take place before s4 but then AT decided to leave and TBTB changed it

So, it is actually,

Unending
AoT
Continuum

Hence both are Lt. Col?

And after all that...
SGA - S4, S5

Correct?

Jumper_One
July 22nd, 2008, 06:14 PM
So, it is actually,

Unending
AoT
Continuum

Hence both are Lt. Col?

And after all that...
SGA - S4, S5

Correct?

no it's

Unending
AoT
s4
S&R
Continuum
520

P_Ferreira
July 22nd, 2008, 06:19 PM
Since I stop reading the this thread after the second page because I got tired of all the fighting and the wrong ideas that some of you have (let me just say that I have no idea how you people come uo with some of the ideas I posted here), I don't know if everybody already reach the right conclusion so here it is:

The Sam Carter that was in Atlantis during season 4 is the same that was at the beggining of the movie and the same that crossed to the alterned timeline (so it had the seed) and the Sam Carter that was in the end of the movie had the same past of the Sam Carter previously mentioned.

It doesn't take a genious to understand this...

SG-Lover-SL
July 22nd, 2008, 06:32 PM
no it's

Unending
AoT
s4
S&R
Continuum
520

Huh? Then how is Carter an Lt. Col? :confused::confused::confused:

You got my head spinning....

Unending - Lt. Col.
AoT - Lt. Col.
S4 - Promoted to Col.
S4:E20 - Still a Col.
S5:01 - - Still a Col. (Sheppard's insubordination possible court martial)
Continuum - Lt. Col.

Confused big time... :confused::confused::confused:

FallenAngelII
July 22nd, 2008, 06:33 PM
Care to elaborate?
Just because a movie is released on a certain date does not mean it takes place on that date or anywhere near that date.

"Ark of Truth" was released several months after it supposedly took place as it took place before Sam's move to Atlantis.


Huh? Then how is Carter an Lt. Col? :confused::confused::confused:

You got my head spinning....

Unending - Lt. Col.
AoT - Lt. Col.
S4 - Promoted to Col.
S4:E20 - Still a Col.
S5:01 - - Still a Col. (Sheppard's insubordination possible court martial)
Continuum - Lt. Col.

Confused big time... :confused::confused::confused:
Because the PTB and post production workers missed it/are idiots/were too busy eating watermelon.

It's obvious "Continuum" is supposed to take place after "Search & Rescue" (at which point she was full bird Colonel). Why? Because in "Search & Rescue", Sam talks specifically about the last Ba'al clone having just been captured and how the Tok'ra wanted Sam to go back to attend the extraction ceremony (which reminds me, aha! Sam had no hand in the capture of the Ba'al clone! So if Sam hadn't gone back, Ba'al would still have been captured and changed the timeline, thus clashing with John's 40,000 years into the future timeline!).

Yes, "Continuum" was originally supposed to take place right after "Ark of Truth" but since the PTB assume the average Sci-Fi viewer is an idiot they thought it'd be too hard for people to understand that "Continuum" takes place right after AoT if they released it this late. Thus, they wrote it into "Search & Rescue".

jenks
July 22nd, 2008, 06:35 PM
Since I stop reading the this thread after the second page because I got tired of all the fighting and the wrong ideas that some of you have (let me just say that I have no idea how you people come uo with some of the ideas I posted here), I don't know if everybody already reach the right conclusion so here it is:

The Sam Carter that was in Atlantis during season 4 is the same that was at the beggining of the movie and the same that crossed to the alterned timeline (so it had the seed) and the Sam Carter that was in the end of the movie had the same past of the Sam Carter previously mentioned.

It doesn't take a genious to understand this...

Maybe not, but you've managed to misunderstand it. The Carter that was in season 4 of Atlantis is the Carter we see at the end of the movie.

Jumper_One
July 22nd, 2008, 06:39 PM
Huh? Then how is Carter an Lt. Col? :confused::confused::confused:

You got my head spinning....

Unending - Lt. Col.
AoT - Lt. Col.
S4 - Promoted to Col.
S4:E20 - Still a Col.
S5:01 - - Still a Col. (Sheppard's insubordination possible court martial)
Continuum - Lt. Col.

Confused big time... :confused::confused::confused:

it was too late to change her rank to Colonel ;) just forget about the Lt Col, Continuum takes place after S&R

SG-Lover-SL
July 22nd, 2008, 06:48 PM
Because the PTB and post production workers missed it/are idiots/were too busy eating watermelon.

It's obvious "Continuum" is supposed to take place after "Search & Rescue" (at which point she was full bird Colonel). Why? Because in "Search & Rescue", Sam talks specifically about the last Ba'al clone having just been captured and how the Tok'ra wanted Sam to go back to attend the extraction ceremony (which reminds me, aha! Sam had no hand in the capture of the Ba'al clone! So if Sam hadn't gone back, Ba'al would still have been captured and changed the timeline, thus clashing with John's 40,000 years into the future timeline!).

Yes, "Continuum" was originally supposed to take place right after "Ark of Truth" but since the PTB assume the average Sci-Fi viewer is an idiot they thought it'd be too hard for people to understand that "Continuum" takes place right after AoT if they released it this late. Thus, they wrote it into "Search & Rescue".

So it is indeed...

Unending
AoT
Continuum

And after all that...

Promoted Carter from Lt. Col. to Col.
SGA - S4, S5

...Simply they shouldn't have mentioned anything about elements in Continuum (Ba'al, Tok'Ra, etc, etc) in "Search & Rescue". Sheesh, couldn't they come-up with a better Reason for why Carter had to gate back to earth in "S&R"....:confused::confused::confused:

jenks
July 22nd, 2008, 06:51 PM
No. It's:

Unending
AoT
S4
S&R
The Seed?
Continuum

SG-Lover-SL
July 22nd, 2008, 06:57 PM
No. It's:

Unending
AoT
S4
S&R
The Seed?
Continuum

Yup...thats how it is....

But it should have been

Unending, AoT, Continuum
SGA - S4, S5

Otherwise the whole Lt. Col./Col. issue pops-up

Wouldn't the issue be put aside if they simply didn't mention anything from Continuum in "S&R"...? :confused:

Jumper_One
July 22nd, 2008, 06:59 PM
Yup...thats how it is....

But it should have been

Unending, AoT, Continuum
SGA - S4, S5

Otherwise the whole Lt. Col./Col. issue pops-up

Wouldn't the issue be put aside if they simply didn't mention anything from Continuum in "S&R"...? :confused:

true but they also didn't mention her rank in the movie ;)

SG-Lover-SL
July 22nd, 2008, 07:06 PM
true but they also didn't mention her rank in the movie ;)

The ending credits do ;)

Jumper_One
July 22nd, 2008, 07:07 PM
The ending credits do ;)

yes I know

PG15
July 22nd, 2008, 09:28 PM
Oh for cryin' out loud. Is the end credits even canon?!

FallenAngelII
July 22nd, 2008, 09:47 PM
it was too late to change her rank to Colonel ;) just forget about the Lt Col, Continuum takes place after S&R
It was "too late"? They had months to fix it. And it's not like it's hard. It's a bunch of scrolling text on black background, it's not a CGI Hive!



But it should have been

Shoulda, woulda, coulda. The canon has been set. A single typo does not canon disqualify.

SG-Lover-SL
July 23rd, 2008, 08:00 AM
by the way...

If Carter was supposed to be a Col. in AoT and Continuum, then Mitchell should have been a Col. too...

A junior officer never calls a senior by name...At least not on duty... It should be rank and/or sir/ma'am

When was mitchel promoted to Col.? ;) He is also the Leader of SG-1. Mitchel should be equal or higher in rank.....

Anyway... the whole mess is because of S&R... Didn't the writer have a better idea for Carter needing to Gate to earth? But then again there was the lovely shield fiasco in S&R too.....

YutheGreat
July 23rd, 2008, 08:06 AM
Technically Continuum happened in less than a day.

Kebab Gud
July 23rd, 2008, 09:31 AM
Technically Continuum happened in less than a day.a little over 3 hours actually

FallenAngelII
July 23rd, 2008, 09:57 AM
by the way...

If Carter was supposed to be a Col. in AoT and Continuum, then Mitchell should have been a Col. too...

A junior officer never calls a senior by name...At least not on duty... It should be rank and/or sir/ma'am

When was mitchel promoted to Col.? ;) He is also the Leader of SG-1. Mitchel should be equal or higher in rank.....

Anyway... the whole mess is because of S&R... Didn't the writer have a better idea for Carter needing to Gate to earth? But then again there was the lovely shield fiasco in S&R too.....
The problems keep building up because the PTB thought the audience were idiots and wouldn't be able to handle "Continuum" taking place months before its release date.

Nice going, PTB.

Jumper_One
July 23rd, 2008, 11:38 AM
Oh for cryin' out loud. Is the end credits even canon?!

IDK but even if it is, I enjoyed the movie


It was "too late"? They had months to fix it. And it's not like it's hard. It's a bunch of scrolling text on black background, it's not a CGI Hive!

apparently it is


by the way...

If Carter was supposed to be a Col. in AoT and Continuum, then Mitchell should have been a Col. too...

um no. btw she's still a Lt Col in Aot ;)


A junior officer never calls a senior by name...At least not on duty... It should be rank and/or sir/ma'am

When was mitchel promoted to Col.? ;) He is also the Leader of SG-1. Mitchel should be equal or higher in rank.....

Anyway... the whole mess is because of S&R... Didn't the writer have a better idea for Carter needing to Gate to earth? But then again there was the lovely shield fiasco in S&R too.....

he wasn't


The problems keep building up because the PTB thought the audience were idiots and wouldn't be able to handle "Continuum" taking place months before its release date.

Nice going, PTB.

LOL that's ridiculous :P

thekillman
July 23rd, 2008, 11:46 AM
maybe, carter got some medicine or so in continuum, that healed her, without her knowing, as it accidently had the same effect as beckets antivirus miraculously created in a short time.

or, maybe continuum took place, lets say, AFTER the seed? maybe, she left that very day to the tokra homeworld? maybe, because she arrived a month predate, due to postponage of the ceremony. c'mon. i can think of a million reasons. but hey, it was most likely explained in annother cut scene?

pjt
July 23rd, 2008, 11:47 AM
Anyway, it's a plot hole, and it doesn't really matter even if it is. But let's see the facts first:
1. Continuum was written much before The Seed, and yet even if it wasn't, I'm sorry but I can't imagine Carter turning into a hive ship during her year in the AT.

2. S&R ends with Carter going to Earth to attend the extraction. Here's a snippet from the transcript:
McKAY: Ah, that's funny. Where are you going?

CARTER: Back to Earth.

McKAY: What? Why?

CARTER: They caught the last Ba'al clone. The Tok'Ra are going to extract the symbiont. They want SG-1 to put in an appearance.

McKAY: OK.

CARTER: Plus the I.O.A. wanna do an "exhaustive" review of my first year in command, so, you know, that can't be good.

3. If they still want to explain it, they can always blame it on her being host to a Tok'Ra, and having naquadah in her blood. :)

PG15
July 23rd, 2008, 12:47 PM
The problems keep building up because the PTB thought the audience were idiots and wouldn't be able to handle "Continuum" taking place months before its release date.

Nice going, PTB.

Or maybe they'd hoped that the audience wouldn't be so anal about every tiny detail and realize that it's irrelevant what the end credits say?

Well, I guess they overestimated some of us on that one.

FallenAngelII
July 23rd, 2008, 02:10 PM
Or maybe they'd hoped that the audience wouldn't be so anal about every tiny detail and realize that it's irrelevant what the end credits say?
There's more than just the credit. As mentioned, Cam called Sam by her first name... yet he was never promoted to Colonel (and he's still listed in the credits as Lt. Colonel).

They don't do that in the military/navy/whatever. If someone outranks you, you call them by Ma'am, Sir or their rank.

Avenger
July 23rd, 2008, 08:23 PM
I find it completely hilarious and quite sad that some people are in such a huff over two letters and a period. Two letters and a period in a credit scroll.

pjt
July 23rd, 2008, 10:54 PM
I find it completely hilarious and quite sad that some people are in such a huff over two letters and a period. Two letters and a period in a credit scroll.

:lol:

SG-Lover-SL
July 24th, 2008, 05:22 PM
Lt. Col -> Col. is a massive issue...Espesially in military circles. There is a thing called chain of command....

And as an SG fan, it is a big deal:

When was Lt. Col. Cameron Mitchell promoted to Col. Cameron Mitchell in SG-1? Simple! In the timeline i live... AFAIK He wasn't! There would have been a nice ceremony if he was. He is also the SG-1 leader.

Lt. Col. Samantha Carter WAS promoted to Col. Samantha Carter is in SGA (So in my mind she is no longer SG-1).

This maybe Science-Fiction but a junior officer leading a team and calling the senior officer (by RANK!) by name is down-right retarded. Worth a court-martial.

The only way I can make up my mind is:

S10:e20 - Unending
DVD1 - AoT
DVD2 - Continuum

Only after all that,
S4, S5 (Where carter is neither SG-1 nor Lt. Col.)

For me thats the only way and the whole problem is the writer of S&R couldn't come up with a better reason for carter needing to gate to earth. Sheeesh! They had to drag in elements of continuum...But then again looking at the wonderful shield lowering fiasco (where the premier 2 years ago "S3:01" did just the opposite happened)... I am not suprised. I hope they can find a way to "Hang A Lantern" for that fiasco...

So no.....its not just "Lt." or 2 letters... Unless one takes the military discipline
for a joke..

PG15
July 24th, 2008, 05:29 PM
So no one's answering me on whether the end credits are canon or not...

Can we just all agree that they're not? Then the problem's solved!

Jumper_One
July 24th, 2008, 05:31 PM
So no one's answering me on whether the end credits are canon or not...

Can we just all agree that they're not? Then the problem's solved!

apparently not...

This maybe Science-Fiction but a junior officer leading a team and calling the senior officer (by RANK!) by name is down-right retarded. Worth a court-martial.

FallenAngelII
July 24th, 2008, 06:28 PM
So no one's answering me on whether the end credits are canon or not...

Can we just all agree that they're not? Then the problem's solved!
Let's call it blatant plot holes due to the PTB's assumptions that the audience are idiots.

Because of what was said in "Search & Rescue", they can no longer just say "Oh, 'Continuum' takes place right after AoT!" without retconning themselves.

They assumed the audience would be too big of idiots to comprehend that "Continuum" takes place before season 4 of Atlantis and thus shoehorned in a few lines into "Search & Rescue". But the movie itself contains several plotholes if the canon is indeed AoT -> S&R -> Continuum.

So as it stands, the ending credits are not canon and the movie is full of plot holes (every time Cam calls Sam by name and every time Sam's not leading them).

Jumper_One
July 24th, 2008, 06:34 PM
Let's call it blatant plot holes due to the PTB's assumptions that the audience are idiots.

once again that's ridiculous


Because of what was said in "Search & Rescue", they can no longer just say "Oh, 'Continuum' takes place right after AoT!" without retconning themselves.

They assumed the audience would be too big of idiots to comprehend that "Continuum" takes place before season 4 of Atlantis and thus shoehorned in a few lines into "Search & Rescue". But the movie itself contains several plotholes if the canon is indeed AoT -> S&R -> Continuum.

it is


So as it stands, the ending credits are not canon and the movie is full of plot holes (every time Cam calls Sam by name and every time Sam's not leading them).

why would she be leading SG-1?

PG15
July 24th, 2008, 06:44 PM
Let's call it blatant plot holes due to the PTB's assumptions that the audience are idiots.

Because of what was said in "Search & Rescue", they can no longer just say "Oh, 'Continuum' takes place right after AoT!" without retconning themselves.

They assumed the audience would be too big of idiots to comprehend that "Continuum" takes place before season 4 of Atlantis and thus shoehorned in a few lines into "Search & Rescue". But the movie itself contains several plotholes if the canon is indeed AoT -> S&R -> Continuum.

So as it stands, the ending credits are not canon and the movie is full of plot holes (every time Cam calls Sam by name and every time Sam's not leading them).

Disrespectful manner...

Yes, of course that's what they assumed. Because you can read their minds, right? So of course what you're telling us is the truth, that they did this because they assumed we're all idiots, and not for some other reason that they wouldn't tell us because it's none of our business.

I'm gonna assume you wrote all of that to annoy me. How dare you sir.

Or, maybe...juuuuuuuuuuust maybe, they thought that fans wouldn't think of the ending credits as canon, as you said; maybe they had hoped that the fans wouldn't be so anal about every little irrelevant detail; maybe they thought we wouldn't be blatantly bothered by what amounts to a tiny, tiny, little blip caused by real world reasons; maybe they thought that we'd be intellegent enough to realize that perhaps Cam was also promoted to Colonel? Why not? We've seen near-simultaneous promtions before and we never saw Sam getting promoted in the first place? Maybe they had hoped the fans would use their brains a little before crying out PLOTHOLE ZOMG. Etc. etc.

FallenAngelII
July 24th, 2008, 06:49 PM
once again that's ridiculous
Why is it ridiculous that there are plot holes?


it is
Then there are blatant plot holes.


why would she be leading SG-1?
Because she outranks Cam.


Disrespectful manner...

Yes, of course that's what they assumed. Because you can read their minds, right? So of course what you're telling us is the truth, that they did this because they assumed we're all idiots, and not for some other reason that they wouldn't tell us because it's none of our business.
Come up with a credible reason other than them thinking the it'd be easier for the audience to assume it took place after S&R than after AoT.


I'm gonna assume you wrote all of that to annoy me. How dare you sir.
O... K...


Or, maybe...juuuuuuuuuuust maybe, they thought that fans wouldn't think of the ending credits as canon, as you said; maybe they had hoped that the fans wouldn't be so anal about every little irrelevant detail; maybe they thought we wouldn't be blatantly bothered by what amounts to a tiny, tiny, little blip caused by real world reasons; maybe they thought that we'd be intellegent enough to realize that perhaps Cam was also promoted to Colonel? Why not? We've seen near-simultaneous promtions before and we never saw Sam getting promoted in the first place? Maybe they had hoped the fans would use their brains a little before crying out PLOTHOLE ZOMG. Etc. etc.
We heard about her being promoted. It's pretty obvious they screwed up and originally intended for "Continuum" to take place right after AoT, then just changed the canon without changing anything in the movie and slapped a few lines onto S&R, since it says "Lt. Colonel" in front of both Cam's and Sam's names.

There's a lot of contradiction going on here.

And the only way you can explain is to say "Well, the credits are all wrong on both of their ranks and he was secretly promoted off-screen". Well, that means the credits are, for some reason, very off and there's no reason why they would be both called Lt. Colonels in it. And damn the U.S. forces for not differentiating between Lt. Colonels and full bird Colonels in speech!

Either way, someone made a mistake here. But I guess your explanation would be used and we'd just be complaining about the credits.

GateofDOOM
July 24th, 2008, 06:49 PM
Oh for cryin' out loud. Is the end credits even canon?!

*snort*



Erm, I don't think plot hole means what some of you think it means.

Behind the scenes mess up does not necessarily equal plot hole.

Just go with Carter had an immunity, nothing about the virus said that it had to manifest itself in every person it infected.





...Oh God, why am I even getting involved????

PG15
July 24th, 2008, 07:08 PM
Let's just make this simple.

End credits aren't canon.

Sam and Cam seems to be of the same rank. Canon says that this happens after Search and Rescue and that Sam's a colonel. Logic dictates that Cam is also a colonel. Neither had their ranks displayed on screen (I think; I haven't seen the movie) except for the end credits, which aren't canon, so this is possible.

The end.

Jumper_One
July 24th, 2008, 07:11 PM
Why is it ridiculous that there are plot holes?

I wasn't talking about plot holes. your assumption regarding TBTB's opinion of the viewers is ridiculous


Then there are blatant plot holes.

there may be some inconsistencies, I wouldn't call them plot holes


Because she outranks Cam.

and Jack outranks Sam ;) basically Cam's in charge of SG-1 while both Sam and Jack only accompany the team

FallenAngelII
July 24th, 2008, 07:29 PM
and Jack outranks Sam ;) basically Cam's in charge of SG-1 while both Sam and Jack only accompany the team
Sam called Jack "Sir" and that was them just standing around. Once the situation required someone to lead the squad, Sam should've been the one to lead them (if she outranked Cam) because that's military procedure. If Jack had been there, he should've lead them (as he outranked Sam).

Unless they're somehow incapacitated, the ranking officer should always lead those of lesser rank.

Jumper_One
July 24th, 2008, 07:34 PM
Sam called Jack "Sir" and that was them just standing around. Once the situation required someone to lead the squad, Sam should've been the one to lead them (if she outranked Cam) because that's military procedure. If Jack had been there, he should've lead them (as he outranked Sam).

Unless they're somehow incapacitated, the ranking officer should always lead those of lesser rank.

ok but Cam wasn't really leading them imo, all he did was call her Sam when she didn't want to leave Jack

PG15
July 24th, 2008, 07:35 PM
Come up with a credible reason other than them thinking the it'd be easier for the audience to assume it took place after S&R than after AoT.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, but neither of us knows what they were thinking.

And if the only contradicting evidence is in the end credits, then it's irrelevant.


Either way, someone made a mistake here. But I guess your explanation would be used and we'd just be complaining about the credits.

Sounds about right.

But I wouldn't waste time complaining about credits. Would you? ;)

Mitchell82
July 24th, 2008, 07:50 PM
The problems keep building up because the PTB thought the audience were idiots and wouldn't be able to handle "Continuum" taking place months before its release date.

Nice going, PTB.

I'm getting sick of you inslutling TPTB over anything you don't like which apparantly is everything.
Continuum was originally set to be released prior to season 4. Things happend which delayed it's release. They decided to fit it into the current story because post production took longer than they expected. The issue about her rank is minor they don't even mention it in the movie. Also as far as I know the timeline goes
Unending
AoT
Season 4
Search and Rescue
Continuum
The Seed
I hardly call the story issue which was beyond their control a sign that they are incompetent at their job or lousy writers.

SG-Lover-SL
July 24th, 2008, 07:53 PM
SG Franchise has a close relationship with the US Military..... Heck they even offered an Improved Los Angeles Class Attack Submarine USS Alexandria (SSN-757). I seriously doubt continuum writers would goof-up the officer ranks. Actual military people had gone through the script.

It is either both are Lt. Col or Col. Simple! For both of them to be Col. then Cameron Mitchell had to be promoted. When did this happen? Unending, Aot, continuum? NO! Not a word on either Mitchell or Carter promotions in SG-1. I highlighted SG-1 because they are SG-1 Movies. I don't expect a grand ceremony like in S08:E02 "New Order - II", but atleast daniel saying: "Hey congrats on the promotion! Here are some macaroons. I baked them myself :daniel: :p". But sorry! NO! Nothing....!

Continuum was done by Brad Wright, and I doubt he would goof-up something like ranks.

My blame goes to S&R.....

Mitchell82
July 24th, 2008, 07:56 PM
SG Franchise has a close relationship with the US Military..... Heck they even offered an Improved Los Angeles Class Attack Submarine USS Alexandria (SSN-757). I seriously doubt continuum writers would goof-up the officer ranks. Actual military people had gone through the script.

It is either both are Lt. Col or Col. Simple! For both of them to be Col. then Cameron Mitchell had to be promoted. When did this happen? Unending, Aot, continuum? NO! Not a word on either Mitchell or Carter promotions in SG-1. I highlighted SG-1 because they are SG-1 Movies. I don't expect a grand ceremony like in S08:E02 "New Order - II", but atleast daniel saying: "Hey congrats on the promotion! Here are some macaroons. I baked them myself :daniel: :p". But sorry! NO! Nothing....!

Continuum was done by Brad Wright, and I doubt he would goof-up something like ranks.

My blame goes to S&R.....

*sigh* The "blame" if you must use that term goes to AT for deciding to work on Sanctuary as well as the post production crew trying to get the CG better. As said numerous times the movie was completly filmed and intended to be released prior to season 4 hence prior to her promotion. Nothing could be change the part about her rank in Continuum.

FallenAngelII
July 24th, 2008, 08:00 PM
ok but Cam wasn't really leading them imo, all he did was call her Sam when she didn't want to leave Jack
Touché. I thought I saw him take point once, but I was remembering it wrong.

So it was just him calling her by her first name (which would apparently be grounds for a court marshall).


*sigh* The "blame" if you must use that term goes to AT for deciding to work on Sanctuary as well as the post production crew trying to get the CG better. As said numerous times the movie was completly filmed and intended to be released prior to season 4 hence prior to her promotion. Nothing could be change the part about her rank in Continuum.
Or it would be placed on the producers for not just rolling with it and placing it right after AoT in the timeline. Then everything would've aligned.

Mitchell82
July 24th, 2008, 08:03 PM
Touché. I thought I saw him take point once, but I was remembering it wrong.

So it was just him calling her by her first name (which would apparently be grounds for a court marshall).


Or it would be placed on the producers for not just rolling with it and placing it right after AoT in the timeline. Then everything would've aligned.

Um no. Not in normal circumstances when you are friendly with the person not to mention they were the same rank.

SG-Lover-SL
July 24th, 2008, 08:13 PM
*sigh* The "blame" if you must use that term goes to AT for deciding to work on Sanctuary as well as the post production crew trying to get the CG better. As said numerous times the movie was completly filmed and intended to be released prior to season 4 hence prior to her promotion. Nothing could be change the part about her rank in Continuum.

Blame Amanda Tapping? What the...... Why would I do that...... I love that lady! http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/liebe/g098.gif

My blame goes to the writer(s)/creator(s)/whatever of S&R! I have no need to blame any of the actors. It was what was said in S&R that is the issue. Did AT write the script?

All in all S&R was a mess. I can drop continuum part but sheeesh the whole shield lowering....... my goodness. The sweet part was off-course Teyla's baby. That was adorable. http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/liebe/a010.gif

RepliBeau
August 23rd, 2008, 08:26 PM
So because Ba'al changed the past so that the stargate was never discovered, and the events of the present were changed in waves (first Vala disappears, then Teal'c, etc) obviously atlantis disappeared before Carter entered the wormhole, so the "Seed Infection" was no longer in her.

Rachel500
August 27th, 2008, 07:35 AM
Have to say this thread has cheered me up no end today as much of the back and forth 'you have no proof', 'but you have no proof', 'but my lack of proof proves more than your lack of proof' debate was very amusing.

Anyways, on topic; the plothole.

Firstly, I agree with the assumption made that Carter at the beginning of Continuum is the Carter that is mentioned at the end of Search and Rescue. It is clear that from the dialogue between Carter and McKay at the end of SAR that the reason for her return to Earth was that (a) the Ba'al clone had been found and SG1 had been asked to make an appearance and (b) the exhaustive anticipated IOA review (which turned out to be a relatively quick 'you're fired').

I also interpret that the Ba'al extraction was going to happen quickly after she got there because Sam's question to Woolsey asks how long the review would take suggesting she anticipated the Ba'al thing happening quickly and it was the review which was going to delay her return (little did she know).

Therefore, logically, for me; SAR Carter is at the beginning of Continuum, and Continuum takes place before The Seed.

As far as ranks go, I believe Carter and Mitchell are both wearing Col insignia in Continuum and JM has blogged often that Carter was supposed to be full bird in the movies (and presumably therefore Mitchell given that he does continue to call her by her first name), that the ranks in the credits are wrong. So for me this timeline works - however if you prefer to go from the ranks in the credits feel free - in which case Continuum takes place way before Carter gets to Atlantis, no plot hole and obviously Ba'al was right about not being the last in Continuum because hey, look - they found another one!

However, in my reality, with Continuum taking place between SAR and The Seed, is the lack of her being infected in Continuum a plothole? Well, maybe yes, maybe no.

Yes, if you assume that the timeline change in Continuum was minimal and events unfolded exactly as before Ba'al went back in time and Mitchell's trip to the past to correct it.

No, if you assume that there is the possibility that the timeline change in Continuum affected events and that the infecting of the Atlantis crew and Carter only happened in the timeline where Mitchell killed Ba'al in 1929. Hence, the timeline Carter at the beginning of the Continuum is not affected but the one at the end is (if the order of events had not also been affected by the timeline change).

If yes, then there are some reasons which the audience can think up for why we don't see it in Continuum from a story perspective (a) Carter may have some immunity given her unique physiology (b) she did get turned into a hive but they were able to treat her during the one year of existence that passed but which the audience didn't see.

---

Obviously, the reality is that Continuum was written and produced way before The Seed was conceived and written. So the lack of Carter turning into a hive is not a plot fault with Continuum itself but rather an oversight by the Atlantis writing team around The Seed.

In tying Carter's exit in SAR to Continuum, they obviously overlooked what would have happened in that 'year out' in Continuum given the events of The Seed. All of this debate could have easily been avoided by saying she showed no sign of the bug and perhaps she had some natural immunity when they mentioned she had been quarantined.

Still, that would mean we wouldn't be here debating it and what would the fun be in that??

michellec24_7
November 15th, 2008, 03:37 PM
Woah woah woah, I thought I got continuum but I'm totally confused now. What exactly are we debating about? Why Sam didn't change or why she didn't turn into a hive-like thing or something else I'm missing? x

Shan Bruce Lee
July 31st, 2009, 10:06 PM
This is incredibly painful to read. The Carter to see at the end of Continuum is 'our' Carter, the Carter to see in the rest of the movie isn't. For all intents and purposes, in relation to 'our' timeline, the events of Continuum never happened. Carter wasn't gone for a year, this thread makes no sense.

This is the correct answer.

Besides, it was never stated that Carter was infected in 'The Seed' - just that she was under quarantine at Stargate Command.