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View Full Version : Hive ships, Clones, The Wraith War and ZPMs



RepliVeggie
July 18th, 2008, 10:58 PM
Ok already we know the Wraith were able to get there hands on a few ZPMs to grow clone armies.

Tonight we learned how Hive Ships are made.

I dunno if anyone else put this together but, I believe with the use of a ZPM for a ships source of power when growing they were probably able to grow ships at a much much faster rate. After "Spoils of War" people assumed that some how the Wraith grew ships faster as well with the ZPMs. I as always under the impression that the Wraith would build a ships systems, ie. weapons, engines life support and whatever else and grew the ships hull and interior around those systems. Tonight's episode pretty much confirmed this for me. If left alone I am pretty sure a super hive would have grown around the city of Atlantis.

So know we know how the Wraith were able to defeat the Ancients. I have never subscribed to the idea that the Ancients simply were bad at war. That they didn't know how to fight. Now we know. After fighting a winning war for 100 years or more a simple act, one that could not have been for seen lost them the war. Any race that was facing a unending army would eventually lose or have to withdraw like the Ancients did. For decades they destroyed Wraith ship after Wraith ship until likely their drones were depleted at which time I believe they decided to return to Earth to either give up on Pegasus or reorganize and head back.

Ouroboros
July 19th, 2008, 03:07 AM
Honestly with what this episode showed us about the rate, and more importantly ease, at which these things can grow it's something of a mystery why there's said to be 60 of them as opposed to 60 million.

All you need is a human (or possibly Wraith drone) host and a bit of power and you can make a ship. So why aren't the Wraith making huge swarms of hiveships again for these latest wars of theirs.

You don't even need a ZPM either, that just makes it faster. Woolsey even said in this episode that it was likely that it would keep growing even if they shut all the power off. It did afterall start growing without access to any source of power other than what it could pull from Keller's body. Then it just plugged itself into the basic electrical system and started spreading over multiple levels in a matter of hours before it even reached that main power conduit.

This episode makes it look like all you'll need to grow Wraith ships is a starting host and some marginal source of power, possibly even a small reactor or just a planet close to a star. Granted though the more power you do have available the faster you can make it grow. Power that could easily be provided by the vast reactors of an already mature hiveship or cruiser.

The only question that remains is how do they make the mechanical parts and does a hive really need the mechanical parts at all. This episode seems to suggest that the whole thing can grow on it's own, meaning either it can grow the parts as well somehow (Beckett mentioned it had some metallic characteristics) or they're not strictly necessary to it functioning.

I can't see any reason here why you couldn't just land a hiveship or cruiser in a big open field somewhere, spread around a bunch of "seeds" connect them all together, maybe supply them with some basic raw materials like metals and what not to eat and have an entire fleet in what, a month or two.

The method of reproduction the ships use enables essentially exponential growth. It's potentially faster than the way the Wraith reproduce once it gets going, even with the cloning facility.

There must be some other requirement because if it really was this easy to grow complete hiveships the Wraith are a lot more powerful and impossible to stop than they ever seem to let on. Perhaps the knowledge of how to do it is only held by a small number of Wraith queens or hive keepers? Maybe Michael improved the process somehow with more genetic engineering?

Kebab Gud
July 19th, 2008, 05:42 AM
So.. she was growing a Hive.. but was she also turning into a Queen?
that that where the Queens come from?
if so.. that would explain why there are no more then 60 hives..
No queen would ever OK the creation of another Queen

SGFerrit
July 19th, 2008, 06:09 AM
Honestly with what this episode showed us about the rate, and more importantly ease, at which these things can grow it's something of a mystery why there's said to be 60 of them as opposed to 60 million.

All you need is a human (or possibly Wraith drone) host and a bit of power and you can make a ship. So why aren't the Wraith making huge swarms of hiveships again for these latest wars of theirs.
...

Perhaps the knowledge of how to do it is only held by a small number of Wraith queens or hive keepers? Maybe Michael improved the process somehow with more genetic engineering?

Well, the whole 60 hives thing was not long after they work up. Considering how many of their ships must have been wiped out by now... We have seen 14 destroyed, and god only knows how many have been destroyed in the civil war or how many the Asurans managed to destroy when they were at war with the Wraith for a few months. It is likely that more than half would be destroyed, rather easily. Before they were woken up early they didn't need more as they weren't opposed, but now I expect the Wraith are indeed making more. However there are likely a number of variables, Queens for instance. Kebab's speculation that Keller was being turned into a Wraith Queen is very interesting/plausible, and the stuff you came up with about Michael's improved process/sharing of information is interesting and feasible too.

Again, we get some answers, yet we are left with even more questions:D Shows like doing that these days. I'm looking forward to The Queen, apparently we learn about Wraith Politics and stuff in that episode so perhaps we will learn more about this sort of stuff too. I'm happy they didn't give everything about Hives and their construction process away in The Seed, I like that they are giving us bits of information but not giving everything away about them.

puddle_jumper5
July 19th, 2008, 06:32 AM
i dont think she was turning into a QUEEN cos then sheppord and macaky were all infected and last time i checked they were male? lol

as for no more than 60 hives- although the ships have a metaliorganic hull (a tisue with high metalic content) they need things like computers and engines and powersources and wepons and and and (list goes on)


they said it was like the SHELL of a beetle- the shell, ie not the body or the legs- only the hull

so thats why there are only 60 hives- which is a massive number when you think what each one is capable of (it would take only one to cull earth)

plus- does it not seem more likely that it sprouts pods which develope into wraith darts- and WERE DO THE SEEDS COME FROM ANYWAY?

Prior_of_the_Ori
July 19th, 2008, 06:37 AM
One has to remember that at minimum there were 60 hives, Grodin did say 60 or more so personally I wouldnt stick to the figure of saying "There are only 60 Hiveships in the galaxy, thats all".

Buba uognarf
July 19th, 2008, 06:50 AM
I also don't see why everyone assumes the Wraith haven't built more. This does clear up the plot hole of how a ZPM powering a clone facility could sway the tide of war against the Ancients. With the virtually 'limitless' power of several ZPMs they could accelerate the growth of their ships exponentially.

The growth of the organism wasn't random as it had a goal. Maybe it grows into a certain shape which is then filled in by other components like weapons and hyperdrives. Or it could be grown around an existing shell including all the gadgets and technology.

FallenAngelII
July 19th, 2008, 06:53 AM
Well, the whole 60 hives thing was not long after they work up. <snip>
There were 60 Hives back in season 1, when we'd barely destroyed any ships and the civil war hadn't really broken out yet.

Livestick
July 19th, 2008, 07:41 AM
i dont think she was turning into a QUEEN cos then sheppord and macaky were all infected and last time i checked they were male?

Maybe infected females turn into queens and males turn into something like that big Wraith from "Sateda."

rien
July 19th, 2008, 08:04 AM
didnt todd or some wraith say that the keepers were responsible for maintaining the fleet? could be that only the keepers had the knowledge of working cloning facilities/creating hive ships etcetera

that would explain why the wraith arent mass producing cloned warriors/building ships cause it was also said the keepers left their posts/made their own alliances? so now maybe only a couple of hives have keepers and thus the knowledge required to expand their fleet whilst the rest are desperately trying to figure it out.

Prior_of_the_Ori
July 19th, 2008, 08:48 AM
I also don't see why everyone assumes the Wraith haven't built more. This does clear up the plot hole of how a ZPM powering a clone facility could sway the tide of war against the Ancients. With the virtually 'limitless' power of several ZPMs they could accelerate the growth of their ships exponentially.

The growth of the organism wasn't random as it had a goal. Maybe it grows into a certain shape which is then filled in by other components like weapons and hyperdrives. Or it could be grown around an existing shell including all the gadgets and technology.

To me, I think that certain components are placed at a location such as hyperdrive, weaponry and other mechanical components and the seed is placed and takes form. Either that or things like the hyperdrive have the bio-hull growing around it after which other compenents like weapons are added once its complete.

I think personally that the Keepers are placed in order to direct growth of the developing ship in order to produce say darts or cruisers or any other ship. Its an interesting approach really.

jenks
July 19th, 2008, 08:59 AM
The 60 Hives thing was just speculation on Grodin's part, they never actually knew how many other Hives there were.

Xaeden
July 19th, 2008, 10:21 AM
The problem as I perceive it is that there's a lack of Wraith to man these ships right now. And even if place a smaller portion of Wraith on a new Hive (which we've seen them do in 'Misbegotten' - that one Hive didn't have a full compliment for whatever reason) you have to trust someone to command it. With how quick they are to break up into fractions and do their own thing, that very well could lead to one of your underlings becoming your enemy.

Cory Holmes
July 19th, 2008, 11:25 AM
It's also a matter of logistics. You build a brand-new hive ship, yay for you! Now you have to feed it, power it, crew it, launch it, maintain it, provise for the troops and crew... as any homeowner can attest to, once you have it is only the beginning :)

Also, at the time of S1 the Wraith had little need for a gigantic fleet. They were the undespuited Heavyweight Champions of the galaxy. The Lantians were a memory and the Atlantians were barely bugs on their viewscreens. Now that we have the Big D on our side, plus fractional fighting by way of the civil war, I imagine new hives are under growth all over the place for any faction that can afford them.

Mister Oragahn
July 19th, 2008, 12:09 PM
We still need to see where they build the skyscrapper large and high structures seen on hiveships. Look at Siege part III when the Daedalus flies under the belly of a hiveship, you'll understand.
Growing stuff isn't enough, but Stargate is incredibly reluctant to show any single sort of decent shipyard, safe for Earth. Even for the Lantians, what we had at best was a cramped hangar in Inferno.

EternalAlteran
July 19th, 2008, 12:30 PM
What I wonder is would it be able to use sunlight as an powersource like a plant. Then we could be in big trouble, the Wraith would have to set up infected humans on a very sunny planet, most likely it would protect it's host against radiation and other problems.

Also I believe the Wraith remove the humans at some point and install a computer core. It would explain why the Wraith cannot change their hull.

But why are the wraith ships affected by hyperspace radiation. I thought the biopolymer was immune to radiation.

jenks
July 19th, 2008, 12:39 PM
Without the hundreds, if not thousand of Wraith needed to maintain a ship as big as a Hive, I don't think creating loads of them will do the Wraith many favours.

GoSpikey
July 19th, 2008, 01:00 PM
Well, I'm thinking they first need to build the bone structure around the ships, to give the tendrils and stuff a frame to grow over. Maybe once it gets that it's eg a Hive Ship that it's building, it has a 'designation' or what was that word again?

No wonder Todd got all teary eyed when he managed to get his hands on 3 ZPM's... :D

Prior_of_the_Ori
July 19th, 2008, 01:35 PM
But why are the wraith ships affected by hyperspace radiation. I thought the biopolymer was immune to radiation.

Might be because they can but extended exposure isnt good for them.

Rac80
July 19th, 2008, 01:43 PM
i dont think she was turning into a QUEEN cos then sheppord and macaky were all infected and last time i checked they were male? lol

as for no more than 60 hives- although the ships have a metaliorganic hull (a tisue with high metalic content) they need things like computers and engines and powersources and wepons and and and (list goes on)


they said it was like the SHELL of a beetle- the shell, ie not the body or the legs- only the hull

so thats why there are only 60 hives- which is a massive number when you think what each one is capable of (it would take only one to cull earth)

plus- does it not seem more likely that it sprouts pods which develope into wraith darts- and WERE DO THE SEEDS COME FROM ANYWAY?


Maybe infected females turn into queens and males turn into something like that big Wraith from "Sateda."

good comments both of you. And WHY did Jennifer begin "oozing" first, because she was a female and turning into a queen? Or was it a simple question of size...she was small so began changing first? It was a very intriguing episode.

Cory Holmes
July 19th, 2008, 02:05 PM
As the Scot said, there are all sorts of physiological reasons why Keller was first. Maybe the Hive Ship just liked her more, and we always remember our first loves, y'know... :p

GoSpikey
July 19th, 2008, 03:06 PM
i dont think she was turning into a QUEEN cos then sheppord and macaky were all infected and last time i checked they were male? lol

Shoulda written Sheppork and Makaki... ;)

RepliVeggie
July 19th, 2008, 04:13 PM
good comments both of you. And WHY did Jennifer begin "oozing" first, because she was a female and turning into a queen? Or was it a simple question of size...she was small so began changing first? It was a very intriguing episode.

After watching it a second time i notice the ooze on the top of her hand looked to be forming tendrils already.

Ouroboros
July 19th, 2008, 09:43 PM
It didn't even occur to me at first either but this is probably also one of the most significant find's Earth has made since going to Pegasus in terms of things they actually need.

They've got the recipe to build an enormous fleet now with little or no actual resources or large scale construction facilities. It's the freakin' golden apple find for all their problems of scope and scale.

Nothing in the MW right now is going to do much more than roll over and die in the face of a flotilla of hiveships, let alone what will happen if you upgrade even a few of them with some of that Asgard wank tech.

A hive volumetrically displaces what, 20, 50 or 100 times what a 304 does? Looking at how much milage a 304 gets out of Asgard weapons and shields with just a few dinky naquada reactors powering them it's hard to even imagine the sort of heights of absurdity you could reach with a fully tooled up hiveship. You'll create something so over the top and broken that it'll break the fourth wall and actually kill viewers watching the show in 3 shots, then it's shields will protect it from attempts to rewrite it out of the canon.

PG15
July 19th, 2008, 11:13 PM
Honestly with what this episode showed us about the rate, and more importantly ease, at which these things can grow it's something of a mystery why there's said to be 60 of them as opposed to 60 million.

Well, no point in making so many ships if you didn't have enough Wraiths to crew them. And there's no point in making all the crew by cloning if you didn't have enough humans to feed them.

Shan Bruce Lee
July 20th, 2008, 02:28 AM
Well, no point in making so many ships if you didn't have enough Wraiths to crew them. And there's no point in making all the crew by cloning if you didn't have enough humans to feed them.

I think that's the key right there. They're already fighting over their food supply as it is.

rarocks24
July 20th, 2008, 04:51 AM
As the Scot said, there are all sorts of physiological reasons why Keller was first. Maybe the Hive Ship just liked her more, and we always remember our first loves, y'know... :p

And yet, she was the only one in the entire episode that showed any significant symptoms. We have no idea what the biological changes would/could be. And since Michael was keeping it in a laboratory, does it stand to reason that he was altering the bacterium to change her into one of his queens?

mrwhite2
July 20th, 2008, 05:02 AM
Why would they need more than 60 hives if there isn't enough food to go around?

GoSpikey
July 20th, 2008, 06:24 AM
And yet, she was the only one in the entire episode that showed any significant symptoms. We have no idea what the biological changes would/could be. And since Michael was keeping it in a laboratory, does it stand to reason that he was altering the bacterium to change her into one of his queens?

With 'her' being Teyla, right? (I'm a M/T shipper, so I might read this the wrong way, lol.)

Yup. That's one of the possibilities. I definitely got the impression he wants to keep her around. He's obsessed with her, wants her to stay with him, maybe even to make sure he doesn't go completely insane?

Maybe there's two ways of making a Hive Ship.

You either have a Wraith Queen, or you have an infected Human.

Maybe the Queen can make the tendrils build themselves the way she wants, because she's got a great telepathy thing going on, she's strong enough to control it, and when the ship is finished, she can disconnect herself from it.

With a Human, maybe this isn't the case. Keller might have needed to lay there forever in order for the ship to heal itself in battle, make sure it 'feels' etc.

So maybe that's what Michael wanted Teyla to do for him? Give her more Wraith DNA, so she could start building him a fleet? Maybe something about having a Queen build a ship versus having a Human in there makes a difference?

Maybe only the female Keepers build ships. Or one female has to sacrifice herself in order to become a ship and give it a consciousness... That's why there's so little of them. They might clone their females so they can become ships?

And then there might even not be a difference between a female and a male, either...

So many questions arise with this new info.

I suggest we ask Todd next time we see him. :P

Laura Dove
July 20th, 2008, 07:09 AM
You all seem quite confident that Keller was turning into a queen, but I don't see any evidence in "The Seed" to confirm that? To me, it appears she was turning into the hive onboard computer, nothing more. I don't think the "pathogen" that got released was an experiment, despite what Carson believes: I just think Michael was building ships for his army. Well, maybe he had to reverse-engineer it as I doubt wraith would have given it willingly, but that's all.

As for why Keller was the first one to show symptoms, I have a simple explanation to propose: She was exhausted. She hadn't slept in days. Her immune system was probably weakened. Also she is rather small and thin: Corporal mass might play a role too.

Mister Oragahn
July 20th, 2008, 09:00 AM
It didn't even occur to me at first either but this is probably also one of the most significant find's Earth has made since going to Pegasus in terms of things they actually need.

They've got the recipe to build an enormous fleet now with little or no actual resources or large scale construction facilities. It's the freakin' golden apple find for all their problems of scope and scale.

Nothing in the MW right now is going to do much more than roll over and die in the face of a flotilla of hiveships, let alone what will happen if you upgrade even a few of them with some of that Asgard wank tech.

A hive volumetrically displaces what, 20, 50 or 100 times what a 304 does? Looking at how much milage a 304 gets out of Asgard weapons and shields with just a few dinky naquada reactors powering them it's hard to even imagine the sort of heights of absurdity you could reach with a fully tooled up hiveship. You'll create something so over the top and broken that it'll break the fourth wall and actually kill viewers watching the show in 3 shots, then it's shields will protect it from attempts to rewrite it out of the canon.

I'm prepared for each TV to burst in a 50 kilotons explosion.
Earth is not preprated for such effective physical terrorism through the cable.
That's some funny plot for a nonsensical comedy show that said. :D

wise one
July 20th, 2008, 10:46 AM
if these things can crack through walls and such

since being organic in nature, maybe it can dig very low into the earth as in ground on any pegasus planet and use geothermal energy to help it grow

RepliVeggie
July 20th, 2008, 12:27 PM
I was thinking, that if this virus did turn its host into a queen. It only started showing symptoms with Keller becasue she is female. I know there were other females on the planet. Maybe cuz she was exhausted as Laura Dove said.

Prior_of_the_Ori
July 20th, 2008, 12:49 PM
You all seem quite confident that Keller was turning into a queen, but I don't see any evidence in "The Seed" to confirm that? To me, it appears she was turning into the hive onboard computer, nothing more. I don't think the "pathogen" that got released was an experiment, despite what Carson believes: I just think Michael was building ships for his army. Well, maybe he had to reverse-engineer it as I doubt wraith would have given it willingly, but that's all.

As for why Keller was the first one to show symptoms, I have a simple explanation to propose: She was exhausted. She hadn't slept in days. Her immune system was probably weakened. Also she is rather small and thin: Corporal mass might play a role too.

I don't see the host being turned into a queen... don't know why others think so, personally I think Queens are born normally and have nothing to do with their ships.

Lord batchi ball
July 20th, 2008, 06:26 PM
good comments both of you. And WHY did Jennifer begin "oozing" first, because she was a female and turning into a queen? Or was it a simple question of size...she was small so began changing first? It was a very intriguing episode.

Well it probably has to do with something about her cell structure or maube those meds by the table. And I doubt that she was turning into a Wraith Queen, the Wraith would always know that she was once human and not follow her.


And the ship thing took energy from the breaking down of the walls floor and anything else it touched. So really if you started to grow it in a jungle or in a hole next to a vein of copper it would convert all the materials to the creation of the set design it was programed for.

DaCk
July 20th, 2008, 06:50 PM
You know while watching this episode i had a thought. Perhaps this is the weakness that the Aurora discovered in wraith technology. If you take out the ships "host" then the ship dies.

Also the episode explained how in BAMSR the wraith were able to speed up the hull regeneration... by diverting power to the host so that it could heal itself faster.

I agree with whoever it was (sorry i forgot who) that said that the only one who knows how to make ships and clones and such were the keepers. That would explain why Michael was tinkering with the SEED because he A) either wanted to learn how it worked so he could make his own ships or whatever OR B) to create a ship more suited to war.

genius21
July 22nd, 2008, 02:55 AM
one thing can be said with a little more research and tests they now have a weapon against hives

GoSpikey
July 28th, 2008, 09:42 AM
I'm gonna say that it's probably easier to take out the ship itself, than the host... ;)

And I think I said something about Keepers. Between all the other ramblings... They seemed to have been some kind of road help thing, maybe? :P

YutheGreat
July 28th, 2008, 08:39 PM
Ok already we know the Wraith were able to get there hands on a few ZPMs to grow clone armies.

Tonight we learned how Hive Ships are made.

I dunno if anyone else put this together but, I believe with the use of a ZPM for a ships source of power when growing they were probably able to grow ships at a much much faster rate. After "Spoils of War" people assumed that some how the Wraith grew ships faster as well with the ZPMs. I as always under the impression that the Wraith would build a ships systems, ie. weapons, engines life support and whatever else and grew the ships hull and interior around those systems. Tonight's episode pretty much confirmed this for me. If left alone I am pretty sure a super hive would have grown around the city of Atlantis.

So know we know how the Wraith were able to defeat the Ancients. I have never subscribed to the idea that the Ancients simply were bad at war. That they didn't know how to fight. Now we know. After fighting a winning war for 100 years or more a simple act, one that could not have been for seen lost them the war. Any race that was facing a unending army would eventually lose or have to withdraw like the Ancients did. For decades they destroyed Wraith ship after Wraith ship until likely their drones were depleted at which time I believe they decided to return to Earth to either give up on Pegasus or reorganize and head back.

I have pretty much the same idea in my thread. It is probably true.

I suspect the Ancients were also careless in the beginning of the war: for the Wraith to get their hands on the ZPM to build their fleet.

This is also how Michael will become a threat in the future. He just needs to get his hands on the Brotherhoods ZPM. With all his contacts he should be able to find them.

Ouroboros
July 29th, 2008, 01:54 PM
I don't know how this idea of queens being made out of adult human women got any traction given child Ellia. This sort of thing was a possibility for males but we've already got concrete proof that Wraith females start out as children.

The only way this Keller into a queen thing would be possible would be if there's two types of Wraith female and Ellia was the non queen type. We've never seen or even heard anything to suggest that though, unless you're counting Hive Keepers as a separate caste genetically which I don't think they are.

YutheGreat
July 29th, 2008, 03:54 PM
Question how big can it get?

The hiveships are HUGE but can a pathogen grow large enough to cover an entire planet?

Ouroboros
July 29th, 2008, 07:31 PM
Question how big can it get?

The hiveships are HUGE but can a pathogen grow large enough to cover an entire planet?

Well if the Wraith turn up with a deathstar this season we'll know how they did it.

Here's a laugh for you to. They said this thing doubled in size every few hours so long as it had access to power. I think this was even before it found the ZPM conduit to. Now imagine what size a "seed" planted back in the ancient war era could potentially be by now.

Mister Oragahn
July 31st, 2008, 01:44 PM
I can only imagine what it would have been if the seed was implanted in the vagina.
Imagine Lucius had done it.
He's a Wraith in disguise.

SgaIsBad
August 30th, 2008, 10:10 AM
I hope they make a future reference that it takes like a decade to grow a Wraith ship or even a century or longer, because why wouldn't the Wraith just grown 1,000's of ships and overpower everyone if its so easy.

Laura Dove
August 30th, 2008, 11:35 AM
I hope they make a future reference that it takes like a decade to grow a Wraith ship or even a century or longer, because why wouldn't the Wraith just grown 1,000's of ships and overpower everyone if its so easy.

It looks like it's what they DID during the war against the Ancients. But a few years ago, they didn't believe the Atlantis expedition to be a match, and now, they simply couldn't feed the crew (and they would need ZPM-powered cloning facilities anyway).