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GateWorld
July 9th, 2008, 12:13 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s5/505.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/505.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON FIVE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s5/505.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">GHOST IN THE MACHINE</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 505</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
The city of Atlantis becomes host to the minds of disembodied Replicators, led by someone very close to the team.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s5/505.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Saif Blade
August 15th, 2008, 07:02 PM
Wow, that was really sad... :(

Best episode of the season though, def had a stargate feel to it. Michelle Morgan did a great job portraying Weir.

tombombadil
August 15th, 2008, 07:03 PM
:(:( that was sad, man. and kinda cruel.

tombombadil
August 15th, 2008, 07:04 PM
although, i'm glad zelenka made it. a while back it was rumored he was gonna die this episode.

Skydiver
August 15th, 2008, 07:04 PM
41 minutes of it was moderately boring...but i honestly didn't think the writers had it in them for the ending.

so kudos to them for having a backbone...and for giving woolsey one.

SpikeBad
August 15th, 2008, 07:06 PM
although, i'm glad zelenka made it. a while back it was rumored he was gonna die this episode.

Luckily though, the red shirt got it instead.

jenks
August 15th, 2008, 07:07 PM
A decent episode ruined by a crappy ending IMO. The episode seemed worthless after that, we started with RepliWeir and the replicators 'out there' and we ended the same way. Seemed pointless to me, nothing has really been wrapped up at all.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
August 15th, 2008, 07:10 PM
They'll shut down in space, I think, so it would take someone actually picking them up in a ship for them to return.

Arative
August 15th, 2008, 07:11 PM
Pretty good episode. I'm continually impressed by the CGI. The space gate righting itself after the jumper bumped it was cool, especially in HD.

I enjoyed the story, it was a good ending to the Wier story line but left it open for Wier to return. I felt it did justice to Wier. Its too bad that Torri didn't want to come back.

The ending was quite sad though but I felt it is something Wier would have done in order to save Atlantis and herself.

ladyjanus
August 15th, 2008, 07:12 PM
They say in science fiction "No one ever really dies," butsometime you just have to let go and say goodbye. If she's really gone, then this was not a totally sucky way to do it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see...

A sweet little "goodbye" scene would have been nice, though (sigh)...

Infernorhythm
August 15th, 2008, 07:12 PM
That was utterly brilliant.

First off, yes, I wanted Tori Higginson back. She's a brillaint actress (hell, the entire SG cast deserves big, A-list roles), but Michelle Morgan was great as Weir. She had Higginson's mannerisms and cadence down perfectly. I was unsure of the casting choice at first, but it was really well done.

Secondly, the story. Wow. The entire opening bit was full of character moments and was just a great slice of life for the team. Flying monkeys, I love it! The Puddle Jumper losing power and the crash with the gate was insane. I held my breath at that scene. I'm so glad Sci-Fi finally gave Atlantis a decent budget, the CGI has been breathtaking this season.

The mystery of what was going on with Atlantis was expertly paced. I knew Weir was coming, but just the way it was done worked on so many levels. The character moments with Weir were great on so many levels. Teyla bonding with her, McKay trying to make up for his actions (the guilt angle was really neat), and Ronon not wanting to be tricked again (when thinking of "This Mortal Coil", his actions here are perfectly justified). I am NOT a shipper, but there is definitely a connection between Weir and Sheppard and it was great to see that played up again, and to see Flanigan and Morgan pull it off.

I LOVED the sudden break out from Korazon. The camera work was great; the slow zoom to a double shot of Ronon and the computer screen as Korazon turns to the camera was a really well done shot. Well, there was a lot of good camera work, especially in the first voice conversation with Weir over the computer. It makes sense that the Asurans would be adverse to human bodies, and that they would pursue Ascension. They have been denied it, and they do not want to be forced to become what they were passed up for: human.

The last scene, wow. I kind of expected it, but the way the scene was staged still surprised me. That was definitely a Weir-choice. Very sad at the end. And the last look between Sheppard and Weir, yeah, great acting.

I really hope this isn't the end of the story. I mean, it was great, and could work as closure, but at the same time the story is so good I want it to go on. I was seriously bummed when Weir left, and even more bummed that Tori wouldn't come back, but Lifeline, This Mortal Coil, and Ghost in the Machine have really given Sheppard and Weir some great, serious, and engaging drama.

Ghost in the Machine: 6/5!

Best episode of the season so far, and the season has rocked.

jasger
August 15th, 2008, 07:13 PM
Wait so what happened in the end?
They all just agreed to shut themselves down in deep space?

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 07:13 PM
Oh wow....

I'm just kinda numb after that ending. I thought it was a great episode right up to the end. The ending was infinitely clever because not only is Weir on ice, but they also clearly outlined a way for TH to return should she choose to. It also neutralized the replicator threat again.

Still, Weir walking through a space gate... Man, that was sad...

Vala_M
August 15th, 2008, 07:13 PM
Amazing episode! There was so much going on I almost can't remember it all to post!

I would have posted sooner but there were some technical difficulties with the systems.

Will update in a bit.

Vala,

SamJackShipper93
August 15th, 2008, 07:14 PM
This was an incredible episode and can't say enough how talented Michelle Morgan is. She did such a wonderful job portraying Torri's character: her voice, her movements, everything. It really caught me off guard at the end when she turned to the other Replicators and was like: "Shall we?" I kinda went "Oh my Gosh, that's incredible."

But I am a little confused at the end. What did Rodney mean we he said "I guess that answers the question as to whether or not it was Elizabeth"? Was it because she knowingly sacrificed herself and the other Replicators to ensure Atlantis's safety and that's how they knew it really was her? Bit confuzzled.

Anyway, incredible ep, definetely one of my favs so far this year!

Hehe, flying monkeys!!!! That's great!

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 07:15 PM
That was utterly brilliant.

First off, yes, I wanted Tori Higginson back. She's a brillaint actress (hell, the entire SG cast deserves big, A-list roles), but Michelle Morgan was great as Weir. She had Higginson's mannerisms and cadence down perfectly. I was unsure of the casting choice at first, but it was really well done.

Secondly, the story. Wow. The entire opening bit was full of character moments and was just a great slice of life for the team. Flying monkeys, I love it! The Puddle Jumper losing power and the crash with the gate was insane. I held my breath at that scene. I'm so glad Sci-Fi finally gave Atlantis a decent budget, the CGI has been breathtaking this season.

The mystery of what was going on with Atlantis was expertly paced. I knew Weir was coming, but just the way it was done worked on so many levels. The character moments with Weir were great on so many levels. Teyla bonding with her, McKay trying to make up for his actions (the guilt angle was really neat), and Ronon not wanting to be tricked again (when thinking of "This Mortal Coil", his actions here are perfectly justified). I am NOT a shipper, but there is definitely a connection between Weir and Sheppard and it was great to see that played up again, and to see Flanigan and Morgan pull it off.

I LOVED the sudden break out from Korazon. The camera work was great; the slow zoom to a double shot of Ronon and the computer screen as Korazon turns to the camera was a really well done shot. Well, there was a lot of good camera work, especially in the first voice conversation with Weir over the computer. It makes sense that the Asurans would be adverse to human bodies, and that they would pursue Ascension. They have been denied it, and they do not want to be forced to become what they were passed up for: human.

The last scene, wow. I kind of expected it, but the way the scene was staged still surprised me. That was definitely a Weir-choice. Very sad at the end. And the last look between Sheppard and Weir, yeah, great acting.

I really hope this isn't the end of the story. I mean, it was great, and could work as closure, but at the same time the story is so good I want it to go on. I was seriously bummed when Weir left, and even more bummed that Tori wouldn't come back, but Lifeline, This Mortal Coil, and Ghost in the Machine have really given Sheppard and Weir some great, serious, and engaging drama.

Ghost in the Machine: 6/5!

Best episode of the season so far, and the season has rocked.


Perfect, I totally agree with your points.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
August 15th, 2008, 07:15 PM
It was powerful and in-character, but I'm not sure that sending them into space was better than allowing them time to build human bodies. Weir, still not in the form of Tori Higginson, could easily decide to leave with the others and only make possible guest appearances.

KindlyKeller
August 15th, 2008, 07:16 PM
A decent episode ruined by a crappy ending IMO. The episode seemed worthless after that, we started with RepliWeir and the replicators 'out there' and we ended the same way. Seemed pointless to me, nothing has really been wrapped up at all.

I thought it was a fantastic ending. Leaves the door "open," and yet it was pretty definitive. And a very dark and realistic resolution to the problem. Elizabeth had the courage (though whether it was morally right to trick her fellow travelers is another matter) to sacrifice herself and her goals for the greater good of Atlantis, and Woolsey had the gumption to go through with it.

But the looks on Rodney's and John's faces... gosh.

Jackie
August 15th, 2008, 07:17 PM
over all the ep was boring, redundant and counterproductive.

Glad TH turned it down. makes me think Fran really wasn't Wier after all. Man do tptb know how to screw a character over. "Fran" was a poor knock off of weir IMO.

It would have been more interesting if she stayed in the computer and typed communications with the team.

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 07:18 PM
This was an incredible episode and can't say enough how talented Michelle Morgan is. She did such a wonderful job portraying Torri's character: her voice, her movements, everything. It really caught me off guard at the end when she turned to the other Replicators and was like: "Shall we?" I kinda went "Oh my Gosh, that's incredible."

But I am a little confused at the end. What did Rodney mean we he said "I guess that answers the question as to whether or not it was Elizabeth"? Was it because she knowingly sacrificed herself and the other Replicators to ensure Atlantis's safety and that's how they knew it really was her? Bit confuzzled.

Anyway, incredible ep, definetely one of my favs so far this year!

Hehe, flying monkeys!!!! That's great!

Yeah, remember, it was all HER plan. When the one replicator dialed the gate, it was redirected to a space gate. Weir led them through freezing them ala Neim. Weir recognized that as replicators, they were a threat to Atlantis and her friends. In a final selfless act, she sacrificed herself to end that threat, which, ironically included herself. The fact that she did that proved to Rodney that it indeed, was Elizabeth Weir.

Briangate78
August 15th, 2008, 07:18 PM
This is an episode that shows what the writers can do when they think out o the box. I have to give kudos to the writers for that ending. It gave me chills and I did not expect that at all. Seeing the team losing Weir once again was just another powerful element. Sending her own people to their death or to shutting down was truly a dark moment for Stargate Atlantis.

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 07:20 PM
This is an episode that shows what the writers can do when they think out o the box. I have to give kudos to the writers for that ending. It gave me chills and I did not expect that at all. Seeing the team losing Weir once again was just another powerful element. Sending her own people to their death or to shutting down was truly a dark moment for Stargate Atlantis.

I had chills too. Very powerful.

SgaIsBad
August 15th, 2008, 07:21 PM
This episode was excellent. And you know what's ironic about the whole thing.. I was picturing Torri the entire time, not Fran. Torri Higginson is such a excellent actress that even the "feel" of her presence could bring life and much needed chemistry to SGA.

My dream scenario: Scrape the Seed for episode 2 this season and bringing Woolsey on as commander completely, have GITM be episode #2 where they bring back Torri as commander of the station, after her and the other replicators build human bodies. This scenario could actually save the show... alas I feel my plea will fall on death ears.

<snip>Don't get me started about Amanda Tapping........

BubblingOverWithIdeas
August 15th, 2008, 07:24 PM
I appreciate Atlantis' ability to do dark and strong stories. It seems like there was a hiatus in terms of those, but here we are again.

About building human bodies: they would have been expected to make new forms (probably somehow matching their Replicator appearances), but cloning pre-existing humans would have been easier. And not something the team would allow. Hilarity ensues.

Vala_M
August 15th, 2008, 07:24 PM
I will just post a summary tomorrow, too many odd things happening with my connection tonight.

I don't know if any of you actively read my summaries but I hope you all enjoy them as I try to post a thorough recap.

Vala,

Michelle05
August 15th, 2008, 07:24 PM
But I am a little confused at the end. What did Rodney mean we he said "I guess that answers the question as to whether or not it was Elizabeth"? Was it because she knowingly sacrificed herself and the other Replicators to ensure Atlantis's safety and that's how they knew it really was her? Bit confuzzled.


I think he meant, there was something of Elizabeth left inside her, because like her, she sacrificed herself for the good of Atlantis/Pegasus. So even though she betrayed Atlantis to bring her other replibuddies there, she still did the right thing in the end.

I have to say by the time she admitted to John what she'd done, I was seeing her as Weir, and I was completely shocked she'd been lying! Still it made sense as there was just a bit of her essence left and a lot had happened to her since she was human. I loved that aspect of the episode. Also loved how John called her on it and her shock in response.

The VFX around the planet of flying monkeys were amazing. As was the city sinking. The VFX are just a step above this year, and they were great last year!

Great episode. It reminds me of some sci fi episode of something where beings refused to leave human bodies for robots. But this was the reverse. :)

SamJackShipper93
August 15th, 2008, 07:25 PM
Yeah, remember, it was all HER plan. When the one replicator dialed the gate, it was redirected to a space gate. Weir led them through freezing them ala Neim. Weir recognized that as replicators, they were a threat to Atlantis and her friends. In a final selfless act, she sacrificed herself to end that threat, which, ironically included herself. The fact that she did that proved to Rodney that it indeed, was Elizabeth Weir.

Thanks, that's what I thought! Gosh, that was such a sad ending!

Vis Uban
August 15th, 2008, 07:25 PM
That was a great episode, right up until the end. Then again, I knew I wouldn't like the ending, because they had to keep Weir in limbo somehow. Otherwise they would have had to open the possibility to her return, which they won't.

Thought Woolsey was strong in this episode, though I don't generally like him, too much of a IOA man for my liking. There were a few parts where I didn't like him, but overall he was a strong character in this one. Getting stuck on the pier was easily the funniest part of the episode. I suppose there's hope for the character yet.

That was cold man, no joke intended. Not exactly the Stargate of the old days. I kinda miss the days when they left no man (or women) behind. I love the character of Weir, and there were a lot of great moments for her in this one, though I think they got some of the character responses to her return wrong i.e. Ronan.

Plus there was no Keller...always a good thing.

naamiaiset
August 15th, 2008, 07:25 PM
I thought it was a fantastic ending. Leaves the door "open," and yet it was pretty definitive. And a very dark and realistic resolution to the problem. Elizabeth had the courage (though whether it was morally right to trick her fellow travelers is another matter) to sacrifice herself and her goals for the greater good of Atlantis, and Woolsey had the gumption to go through with it.

But the looks on Rodney's and John's faces... gosh.
hopefully, that door is shut and locked permanently. just my opinion, but I'm tired of replicators. I thought the ending was the best part of the episode. overall, it was boring to me though, but had it's highlights... one being woolsey. I like him much more in a serious role, with any luck he'll continue with that and not revert back to a comedy act in next week's episode (not that he hasn't been funny).

Ruffles
August 15th, 2008, 07:27 PM
This ep reminds me of Miller's Crossing - interesting with some nice tension and character moments. And then a breathtaking ending. I found lots of good stuff here.

* Atlantis still looking for an alpha site
* flying monkeys!
* the stargate's thrusters moving it back into position after the jumper hit it; maybe I've seen it before; I know I've seen manually done, but I thought it was cool that it automatically adjusted
* Zelenka and Chuck!
* the hesitancy throughout by everyone regarding whether it was really Weir - they really wanted to believe but life in Pegasus has taught them a few lessons
* an answer to what the group of Replicators intended at the end of BAMSR. While I suspected that was Weir's plan, it's nice to have it confirmed.
* the awkward scene with Teyla - Weir/FRAn acted like they were old friends catching up and Teyla had no idea what to believe. It was good to find out the Athosians were off-world (setting up a new settlement I assume) and that Torren was there. It's also a nice touch having "Weir" know who Kanaan is.
* Woolsey standing up to them - really nice moment for him

But the ending... just WOW. First finding out "Weir" had been lying to them, John's accusation that she was no longer Weir was an obvious blow to her, her killing the other Replicator and the look on John's face as it happened - I couldn't decide if he was surprised by her actions or concerned that he was next. Her refusal to accept their help out of a need to protect the city - pure Weir. But never in a million years did I guess they had rerouted the DHD to dial a space gate. The look on their faces (especially John's) after the gate shut down was heartbreaking as was Rodney's words (his tone!) about no doubt now that it was really Weir. I LOVE that the writers have kept with the concept that she will sacrifice herself for the others. But, as always, no one ever dies in sci-fi. They can scoop her up and bring her back online anytime they want.

A nice ep with a powerfully emotional ending.

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 07:27 PM
I'd almost think of this ep as an olive branch to TH. They outlined a perfect way to bring her back. Example: Team Atlantis encounters one of the new technologically advanced races that she mentioned. They realize that she has intel on them after being in their computer. They go via PJ to fetch Iced Ole' Weir Awaitiningactivation (IOWA), reactivate her, and let her build a new body. Initiate brain transfer, and presto! One former character reinvented!

I would kill for that...

SamJackShipper93
August 15th, 2008, 07:29 PM
I think he meant, there was something of Elizabeth left inside her, because like her, she sacrificed herself for the good of Atlantis/Pegasus. So even though she betrayed Atlantis to bring her other replibuddies there, she still did the right thing in the end.

I have to say by the time she admitted to John what she'd done, I was seeing her as Weir, and I was completely shocked she'd been lying! Still it made sense as there was just a bit of her essence left and a lot had happened to her since she was human. I loved that aspect of the episode. Also loved how John called her on it and her shock in response.

The VFX around the planet of flying monkeys were amazing. As was the city sinking. The VFX are just a step above this year, and they were great last year!

Great episode. It reminds me of some sci fi episode of something where beings refused to leave human bodies for robots. But this was the reverse. :)

Thanks, and yeah, I was really shocked by that too. For me, that was the only time I actually had some doubts about whether or not she was actually Elizabeth.

A Wraith Named Bob
August 15th, 2008, 07:32 PM
I thought tonight's episode was by no means a bad episode, but I found it didn't keep my interest. I'm not sure why, but who knows...

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 07:33 PM
I think he meant, there was something of Elizabeth left inside her, because like her, she sacrificed herself for the good of Atlantis/Pegasus. So even though she betrayed Atlantis to bring her other replibuddies there, she still did the right thing in the end.

I have to say by the time she admitted to John what she'd done, I was seeing her as Weir, and I was completely shocked she'd been lying! Still it made sense as there was just a bit of her essence left and a lot had happened to her since she was human. I loved that aspect of the episode. Also loved how John called her on it and her shock in response.

The VFX around the planet of flying monkeys were amazing. As was the city sinking. The VFX are just a step above this year, and they were great last year!

Great episode. It reminds me of some sci fi episode of something where beings refused to leave human bodies for robots. But this was the reverse. :)

I too have to admit that I was shocked that she had been lying. That seemed quite a bit out of character to me. She had always been honest to Shepard, McKay, and Teyla. Maybe it was meant to show just how desperate she was. IDK...:confused:

KindlyKeller
August 15th, 2008, 07:34 PM
This episode was excellent. And you know what's ironic about the whole thing.. I was picturing Torri the entire time, not Fran. Torri Higginson is such a excellent actress that even the "feel" of her presence could bring life and much needed chemistry to SGA.


I think that's more a credit to the excellent performance of the actress who portrayed her in this episode. Being able to picture Torri during the episode is very telling of how the actress had her cadence and mannerisms down.

Infernorhythm
August 15th, 2008, 07:34 PM
I think that's more a credit to the excellent performance of the actress who portrayed her in this episode. Being able to picture Torri during the episode is very telling of how the actress had her cadence and mannerisms down.

Agreed.

I'd love to see Torri Higginson and Michelle Morgan in a film together and see them play off each other. That would be interesting.

Briangate78
August 15th, 2008, 07:35 PM
This ep reminds me of Miller's Crossing - interesting with some nice tension and character moments. And then a breathtaking ending. I found lots of good stuff here.

* Atlantis still looking for an alpha site
* flying monkeys!
* the stargate's thrusters moving it back into position after the jumper hit it; maybe I've seen it before; I know I've seen manually done, but I thought it was cool that it automatically adjusted
* Zelenka and Chuck!
* the hesitancy throughout by everyone regarding whether it was really Weir - they really wanted to believe but life in Pegasus has taught them a few lessons
* an answer to what the group of Replicators intended at the end of BAMSR. While I suspected that was Weir's plan, it's nice to have it confirmed.
* the awkward scene with Teyla - Weir/FRAn acted like they were old friends catching up and Teyla had no idea what to believe. It was good to find out the Athosians were off-world (setting up a new settlement I assume) and that Torren was there. It's also a nice touch having "Weir" know who Kanaan is.
* Woolsey standing up to them - really nice moment for him

But the ending... just WOW. First finding out "Weir" had been lying to them, John's accusation that she was no longer Weir was an obvious blow to her, her killing the other Replicator and the look on John's face as it happened - I couldn't decide if he was surprised by her actions or concerned that he was next. Her refusal to accept their help out of a need to protect the city - pure Weir. But never in a million years did I guess they had rerouted the DHD to dial a space gate. The look on their faces (especially John's) after the gate shut down was heartbreaking as was Rodney's words (his tone!) about no doubt now that it was really Weir. I LOVE that the writers have kept with the concept that she will sacrifice herself for the others. But, as always, no one ever dies in sci-fi. They can scoop her up and bring her back online anytime they want.

A nice ep with a powerfully emotional ending.

Excellent review, and I agree totally. The Sheppard and well Weir(FRAN) moments were done so well. The ending really shocked me and I had chills seeing her body float in space and shutting down.

I have been saying Atlantis has gotten dark, and this just shows how deep they can get into the darkness.

The last line from Rodney was just, very powerful.

Ruffles
August 15th, 2008, 07:36 PM
Forgot to mention - LOVED finding out there are other technologically advanced races out there. Woo hoo!


But I am a little confused at the end. What did Rodney mean we he said "I guess that answers the question as to whether or not it was Elizabeth"? Was it because she knowingly sacrificed herself and the other Replicators to ensure Atlantis's safety and that's how they knew it really was her? Bit confuzzled.

Not only was it her plan to go through a spacegate, she "communicated" to the other Replicators that it was safe to come through. Remember the other woman closing her eyes after "Weir" went through then telling the others it was safe? Weir had enough power left to communicate with them to convince them to come through. Gutsy.

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 07:36 PM
Anyone notice who directed this?

Ruined_puzzle
August 15th, 2008, 07:37 PM
That was utterly brilliant.

First off, yes, I wanted Tori Higginson back. She's a brillaint actress (hell, the entire SG cast deserves big, A-list roles), but Michelle Morgan was great as Weir. She had Higginson's mannerisms and cadence down perfectly. I was unsure of the casting choice at first, but it was really well done.

Secondly, the story. Wow. The entire opening bit was full of character moments and was just a great slice of life for the team. Flying monkeys, I love it! The Puddle Jumper losing power and the crash with the gate was insane. I held my breath at that scene. I'm so glad Sci-Fi finally gave Atlantis a decent budget, the CGI has been breathtaking this season.

The mystery of what was going on with Atlantis was expertly paced. I knew Weir was coming, but just the way it was done worked on so many levels. The character moments with Weir were great on so many levels. Teyla bonding with her, McKay trying to make up for his actions (the guilt angle was really neat), and Ronon not wanting to be tricked again (when thinking of "This Mortal Coil", his actions here are perfectly justified). I am NOT a shipper, but there is definitely a connection between Weir and Sheppard and it was great to see that played up again, and to see Flanigan and Morgan pull it off.

I LOVED the sudden break out from Korazon. The camera work was great; the slow zoom to a double shot of Ronon and the computer screen as Korazon turns to the camera was a really well done shot. Well, there was a lot of good camera work, especially in the first voice conversation with Weir over the computer. It makes sense that the Asurans would be adverse to human bodies, and that they would pursue Ascension. They have been denied it, and they do not want to be forced to become what they were passed up for: human.

The last scene, wow. I kind of expected it, but the way the scene was staged still surprised me. That was definitely a Weir-choice. Very sad at the end. And the last look between Sheppard and Weir, yeah, great acting.

I really hope this isn't the end of the story. I mean, it was great, and could work as closure, but at the same time the story is so good I want it to go on. I was seriously bummed when Weir left, and even more bummed that Tori wouldn't come back, but Lifeline, This Mortal Coil, and Ghost in the Machine have really given Sheppard and Weir some great, serious, and engaging drama.

Ghost in the Machine: 6/5!

Best episode of the season so far, and the season has rocked.

Okay you just seriously made me want to watch this episode. And that hasn't happened since s3.

tombombadil
August 15th, 2008, 07:37 PM
woolsey finally acted the way we're used to though. i liked that. nice goody goody woolsey was bugging me. but thinking about it, it makes sense. you don't want to be a jerk when you first show up, you have to ease into it, so you can make a good impression.

Ruffles
August 15th, 2008, 07:39 PM
Anyone notice who directed this?

Ken Girotti (something like that).

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 07:39 PM
Okay you just seriously made me want to watch this episode. And that hasn't happened since s3.

I would totally recommend it, but be prepared for that ending. I consider Season 4 to be, to quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, "the dark times, before the Empire," but I have stuck with it and this episode made it worth it, IMO.

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 07:40 PM
Ken Girotti (something like that).

Thanks! I've never heard of him, but thanks!!!

:)

SgaIsBad
August 15th, 2008, 07:40 PM
Without Torri as the original actress, Michelle Morgan wouldn't have much to go off of. Are we happy they she can imitate a former actress on the show????? The character of Weir is nothing, without Tori developing it.

Infernorhythm
August 15th, 2008, 07:41 PM
See, this show can be serious and dark. Not everyone dying every second dark, but dark in content and mature. This was an episode that had roots in past storylines but moved things forward. It had great characterization and the relationships between the team was the focal point of the story.

Seriously heartwrenching ending.

Vis Uban
August 15th, 2008, 07:42 PM
Woolsey was great, he is putting Carter to shame.

Woolsey was a very strong character here, and they let you see just a few moments of fear on his face when the Replicaters where doing their thing, gotta give him credit for guts. Great episode for the character.

Michelle05
August 15th, 2008, 07:43 PM
* the awkward scene with Teyla - Weir/FRAn acted like they were old friends catching up and Teyla had no idea what to believe. It was good to find out the Athosians were off-world (setting up a new settlement I assume) and that Torren was there. It's also a nice touch having "Weir" know who Kanaan is.


Actually I think Teyla was lying about Torren being off-world. She was protecting her son, not trusting why Weir was asking so not willing to give an honest answer. And you could see that Weir knew Teyla was lying, and it made her sad.

the fifth man
August 15th, 2008, 07:44 PM
They say in science fiction "No one ever really dies," butsometime you just have to let go and say goodbye. If she's really gone, then this was not a totally sucky way to do it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see...

A sweet little "goodbye" scene would have been nice, though (sigh)...

This post hits exactly how I felt right on the head. Overall, I thought this was a very strong episode. Very sad too at the end.:(

McKayManiacs92
August 15th, 2008, 07:44 PM
I kind of love hated this episode...I mean you could tell how much there was in place for Torri to be Weir, but how they "changed it all" when she didn't come back. The ending is just KILLING me though....so rough. They do seem to feel that darker is better, although there was some hope left with it.

It was good. But I think it would have been even better if only Weir was played by Torri.

Briangate78
August 15th, 2008, 07:45 PM
See, this show can be serious and dark. Not everyone dying every second dark, but dark in content and mature. This was an episode that had roots in past storylines but moved things forward. It had great characterization and the relationships between the team was the focal point of the story.

Seriously heartwrenching ending.

Yes, and not every episode ends with a happy "oh lets grab a bite to eat in the mess hall"

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 07:45 PM
Woolsey was great, he is putting Carter to shame.

I agree that Woolsey was good in this episode, but how did Coke put it? "Can't beat the real thing"???

:)

SamJackShipper93
August 15th, 2008, 07:45 PM
Actually I think Teyla was lying about Torren being off-world. She was protecting her son, not trusting why Weir was asking so not willing to give an honest answer. And you could see that Weir knew Teyla was lying, and it made her sad.

That's how I saw it too. But I felt so sad for Elizabeth when she stood up like she wanted to hug Teyla, and all she was met with was a bunch of guns in her face. :(

Briangate78
August 15th, 2008, 07:46 PM
I kind of love hated this episode...I mean you could tell how much there was in place for Torri to be Weir, but how they "changed it all" when she didn't come back. The ending is just KILLING me though....so rough. They do seem to feel that darker is better, although there was some hope left with it.

It was good. But I think it would have been even better if only Weir was played by Torri.

If you are feeling that strong about the ending, then it delivered. I hear where you are coming from. If it was Torri playing the part, we would of likely had to pass around a lot of Kleenex. :p Still a powerful episode don't get me wrong.

Michelle05
August 15th, 2008, 07:46 PM
Woolsey was great, he is putting Carter to shame.

I'm finding Woolsey much more interesting than Carter for lead of Atlantis, I think because Carter was already such a developed character, it was hard for her to act or react in a surprising way. I had no idea Woolsey was going to bluff the replicators. I would have expected Carter wouldn't give in, but with Woolsey I was expecting him to cave. Very cool!

Pandora's_Box
August 15th, 2008, 07:46 PM
Without Torri as the original actress, Michelle Morgan wouldn't have much to go off of. Are we happy they she can imitate a former actress on the show????? The character of Weir is nothing, without Tori developing it.

That's not giving enough credit to the Morgan. She did exactly what an actress is supposed to do. She adopted different vocal inflections and mannerisms in order to have the audience see the character in a certain way. In this case, the role she was playing was Weir - an established character with distinguishing physical characteristics and movements. Morgan was apparantly able to capture them so well that the audience bought her as Weir in a different body.

That's a serious testament to Morgan's abilities as an actress.

Shan Bruce Lee
August 15th, 2008, 07:46 PM
I thought it was a great episode. It wasn't my favorite of the season, and I wasn't even really looking forward to it, but MM was great as Weir.

Loved the ending :) When they take the show in a direction like this they always do it perfectly.

I was a little dissapointed that they only showed a few seconds of the actually city sinking into the ocean. That's probably my only complaint though.

Vis Uban
August 15th, 2008, 07:49 PM
See, this show can be serious and dark. Not everyone dying every second dark, but dark in content and mature. This was an episode that had roots in past storylines but moved things forward. It had great characterization and the relationships between the team was the focal point of the story.

Seriously heartwrenching ending.

That was the most emotional ending they've had in a very long time, I really didn't see it coming. It was genuinely moving, watching her float alone in the darkness of space.

Shan Bruce Lee
August 15th, 2008, 07:50 PM
Sending her own people to their death or to shutting down was truly a dark moment for Stargate Atlantis.

It was an awesome moment


As an actress would you come back again with that amount of screen time???

I'm pretty sure she did take that part, could be wrong though.


This ep reminds me of Miller's Crossing - interesting with some nice tension and character moments. And then a breathtaking ending. I found lots of good stuff here.

That was the best part of the episode for me. I loved the look on the second replicator's face when she came out on the other side of the gate.


Forgot to mention - LOVED finding out there are other technologically advanced races out there. Woo hoo!

Yeah you kinda get the feeling the last two episodes are setting up some great stuff later on.


Woolsey was great, he is putting Carter to shame.

"Not so fast my friend" (bad Lee Corso impersonation) I still prefer Carter but Woolsey has been awesome. The scene where he got stuck outside the transporter was hilarious.

Ruffles
August 15th, 2008, 07:52 PM
Actually I think Teyla was lying about Torren being off-world. She was protecting her son, not trusting why Weir was asking so not willing to give an honest answer. And you could see that Weir knew Teyla was lying, and it made her sad.

Ah, good point. I'm sure you're right. Though I am wondering where the Athosians are. I realize Atlantis is a big city, but we never see them (except for Kanaan and Torren). I guess I was hoping for some answers. Oh well. It was still a great scene between them.

justhere1971
August 15th, 2008, 07:52 PM
Actually I think Teyla was lying about Torren being off-world. She was protecting her son, not trusting why Weir was asking so not willing to give an honest answer. And you could see that Weir knew Teyla was lying, and it made her sad.

ITA agree with this. She understood Teyla's need to lie though... even if she was sad about it. It was necessary.

SgaIsBad
August 15th, 2008, 07:52 PM
I also realized this episode was sort of a "bottle show" to save money... besides the beginning with the puddle jumper but alot of that was probably stock footage. To think that Joe M said DV last week was one of the most expensive show SGA has ever made, up there with the first episode Rising. It just goes to show me that good writing kicks ass over big special effects any day.

SamJackShipper93
August 15th, 2008, 07:53 PM
That's not giving enough credit to the Morgan. She did exactly what an actress is supposed to do. She adopted different vocal inflections and mannerisms in order to have the audience see the character in a certain way. In this case, the role she was playing was Weir - an established character with distinguishing physical characteristics and movements. Morgan was apparantly able to capture them so well that the audience bought her as Weir in a different body.

That's a serious testament to Morgan's abilities as an actress.

Thank you! As an actress myself, I know how difficult it is to develop a character from scratch as it is, but Michelle had to study everything that Weir does, how she how physically react to something, what she'd be like when she had to say good-bye to the team, what she'd be like in response to finding out about Teyla's baby, the list goes on and on.

Then she has to make sure she incorporates all of those little mannerisms into her movements and dialouge, making sure they'll be believable to the fans, and IMHO, they definetely were. I don't think they could have found anyone better to play Elizabeth.

A Wraith Named Bob
August 15th, 2008, 07:53 PM
I had trouble picturing Weir when she was talking through the voice synthesizer and when she was in replicator form. I think that is what made this episode hard for me to like. I didn't get the feeling of Dr. Weir.

Infernorhythm
August 15th, 2008, 07:53 PM
I mentioned this briefly in my review on page 1, but I really have to hand it to the director (whose name escapes me). That was some seriously strong direction. The camera work, the pacing, it was brilliant. Even the score was done so well that it enhanced every scene. At every commercial I was thinking to myself "This episode is so awesome! But wow, the production is insane."

And yeah, Michelle Morgan really showed how good of an actress she was. It is difficult to emulate someone else, and the fact that she really captured Weir was testament to that ability. Like I said, I would LOVE to see Torri Higginson and MM act together in a film/TV show. Two very gifted, and underrated actresses.

If the show was half this good all the time I would be ecstatic. This season has stepped up from season 4 (started off so good, but the second half was terrible), and Ghost in the Machine was the pinnacle of that. I don't think they'll top this one for a long time.

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 07:53 PM
I'm pretty sure she did take that part, could be wrong though.

I'm pretty sure, and I admit that I could be wrong, that she agreed to come back for 4 episodes. I don't think there was a breakdown of how much screen time she would get in each episode.

Rocky89
August 15th, 2008, 07:53 PM
Woolsey was great, he is putting Carter to shame.

:mckay: That's not very nice. To me Carter is still the best leader of Atlantis, Woolsey still has a lot to prove to fans, and besides, if Amanda had stayed, Sam would be owning S5. :samanime15: :sam59:

KindlyKeller
August 15th, 2008, 07:55 PM
Without Torri as the original actress, Michelle Morgan wouldn't have much to go off of. Are we happy they she can imitate a former actress on the show????? The character of Weir is nothing, without Tori developing it.

I don't understand the issue. Shouldn't the actress who so ably and competently filled the role get some credit? It's not a knock on Torri to say that Michelle Morgan did a great job in the role, and it's not fair to somehow give Torri all the credit for Morgan's acting job.

Shan Bruce Lee
August 15th, 2008, 07:57 PM
That's not giving enough credit to the Morgan.

lol "The Morgan"? I completely agree. She was good


I think because Carter was already such a developed character, it was hard for her to act or react in a surprising way. I had no idea Woolsey was going to bluff the replicators.

That's an excellent point. I hadn't considered that.

the fifth man
August 15th, 2008, 07:59 PM
I don't understand the issue. Shouldn't the actress who so ably and competently filled the role get some credit? It's not a knock on Torri to say that Michelle Morgan did a great job in the role, and it's not fair to somehow give Torri all the credit for Morgan's acting job.

Michelle Morgan did do a very good job playing Weir. I was really shocked by how well she pulled it off.

Biokinetica
August 15th, 2008, 08:00 PM
Am I the only one that feels like that ending was 'the easy way out'? By that time, Atlantis and the remaining Replicators had gained the trust of each other. So why would they throw away the great chance for a powerful ally so they can have a half-dozen replicators floating around for the wraith to find? Who is to say the wraith wouldn't offer them "revenge" and use them as a weapon? I can't be the only one who sees this as a huge loss, and potential problem later on. http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1890/haaaafg7.png

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 08:00 PM
I had trouble picturing Weir when she was talking through the voice synthesizer and when she was in replicator form. I think that is what made this episode hard for me to like. I didn't get the feeling of Dr. Weir.

I almost cried when the computer typed, "help"... Twice! Then, when the voice synthesizer said, "you're the only friends I have," I, personally, found this gut-wrenching. I think the voice was MM run through a synthesizer, but I'm guessing.

Though, I think that having the computer typing first was a brilliant way to reinto the character. It let the audience imagine TH. Then, the synthesizer tried to mess with that internal picture by introducing a new, but distorted, voice. Finally, we get the new body. I thought it was wise to do it gradually, but that's just my opinion.

Wilson3Girl
August 15th, 2008, 08:01 PM
Actually I think Teyla was lying about Torren being off-world. She was protecting her son, not trusting why Weir was asking so not willing to give an honest answer. And you could see that Weir knew Teyla was lying, and it made her sad.

Yes, I saw it that way too. I found that scene heartbreaking. :(


Wilson3Girl

SgaIsBad
August 15th, 2008, 08:02 PM
Michelle Morgan did do a very good job playing Weir. I was really shocked by how well she pulled it off.

Geez I get it everyone, Michelle Morgan rocks.

mimi1970
August 15th, 2008, 08:03 PM
I also realized this episode was sort of a "bottle show" to save money... besides the beginning with the puddle jumper but alot of that was probably stock footage. To think that Joe M said DV last week was one of the most expensive show SGA has ever made, up there with the first episode Rising. It just goes to show me that good writing kicks ass over big special effects any day.

Stock Shots? Where in SGA do we have a PJ with a nebula and rings around a planet? When have we seen the city sink like that? I think there were lots of great effects in that episode. I don't know where bottle show comes from?

tombombadil
August 15th, 2008, 08:03 PM
Am I the only one that feels like that ending was 'the easy way out'? By that time, Atlantis and the remaining Replicators had gained the trust of each other. So why would they throw away the great chance for a powerful ally so they can have a half-dozen replicators floating around for the wraith to find. Who is to say the wraith wouldn't offer them "revenge" and use them as a weapon? I can't be the only one who sees this as a huge loss, and potential problem later on. http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1890/haaaafg7.png

because a key part of rplicator programing is to kill wraith. they would never assist them.

Vis Uban
August 15th, 2008, 08:04 PM
Michelle Morgan did do a very good job playing Weir. I was really shocked by how well she pulled it off.

She really did a fantastic job. It's hard enough pulling off a new character, but it's exponentially harder for another actress to pull off a well-established character. I don't even want to think of all the work she had to go through, trying to get into Weir's mind and mannerisms. Great Work! :)

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 08:07 PM
Am I the only one that feels like that ending was 'the easy way out'? By that time, Atlantis and the remaining Replicators had gained the trust of each other. So why would they throw away the great chance for a powerful ally so they can have a half-dozen replicators floating around for the wraith to find. Who is to say the wraith wouldn't offer them "revenge" and use them as a weapon? I can't be the only one who sees this as a huge loss, and potential problem later on. http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1890/haaaafg7.png

Yeah, I can understand where you are coming from, but I think that where they were going was to show how terrible an enemy the replicators are. Weir, by being a replicator, could no longer be trusted. If you couldn't trust one of us turned into them, how could you trust any of them? In the end, Weir realized that she was a threat to the city that she loved and *sniffle* the only friends she has. Thus, she chose to end that threat... completely... Which included herself. She, as she said, "Set things right."

Biokinetica
August 15th, 2008, 08:07 PM
Stock Shots? Where in SGA do we have a PJ with a nebula and rings around a planet? When have we seen the city sink like that? I think there were lots of great effects in that episode. I don't know where bottle show comes from?The city's pseudo-sinking was hardly technologically straining. It submerged itself for all of 5 centimeters, then back to normal. Not tough. However, this episode (especially the opening) did have a more 'polished' gate, Jumper, and city. Or maybe I'm imagining it...

SgaIsBad
August 15th, 2008, 08:07 PM
Stock Shots? Where in SGA do we have a PJ with a nebula and rings around a planet? When have we seen the city sink like that? I think there were lots of great effects in that episode. I don't know where bottle show comes from?

My point was they blew out the budget on DV, but GITM not so much opticals intense but much better quality of writing , at least in my opinion.

And is anyone else confused why there were so disturstful of the replicators, even though it was their former commander Weir. Wouldn't you want the Asurans around to say, tell you how to build a ZPM??????

Infernorhythm
August 15th, 2008, 08:09 PM
I'm surprised how much I'm praising this episode. I've been a fan of Atlantis since the beginning (it's actually how I got into Stargate through watching Rising), and I've enjoyed the show, despite the creative slumps (season 2, the second half of season 4), but this is just a prime example of what this show is capable of.

It was a smart story, directed subtly and wonderfully, and brilliantly acted. There was no forced humor, no pointless action, just drama and tension. It worked so very well. It was not dark. It was mature.

And that is a great thing.

Wilson3Girl
August 15th, 2008, 08:09 PM
Woolsey has been awesome. The scene where he got stuck outside the transporter was hilarious.


Absolutely! That scene made me howl with laughter :).....also when he said "I had to walk all the way back..." and then promptly plopped into the chair exhausted. Not very nice of me to cackle, but there you go. :)


Wilson3Girl

Shan Bruce Lee
August 15th, 2008, 08:09 PM
I almost cried when the computer typed, "help"... Twice! Then, when the voice synthesizer said, "you're the only friends I have," I, personally, found this gut-wrenching. I think the voice was MM run through a synthesizer, but I'm guessing.


I'll say the same thing I said about Keller's voice in 'The Seed' - it had a nice dark tone. It was a lot better than the other guy's voice later in the ep.


Geez I get it everyone, Michelle Morgan rocks.

"Move along, move along"

KindlyKeller
August 15th, 2008, 08:09 PM
Geez I get it everyone, Michelle Morgan rocks. She will have a solid placed saved for her on BayWatch, like other prestigious actors on the show such as Jason Mamoa.

Wow.

You said yourself that it was an excellent episode, and that you "felt Weir's presence." That by itself is an endorsement of Morgan's performance. I'm sorry that you feel it's a slight on Torri to acknowledge the quality of the other actress' performance.

Are all young and attractive actresses just "Baywatch fodder" by default?

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 08:11 PM
Stock Shots? Where in SGA do we have a PJ with a nebula and rings around a planet? When have we seen the city sink like that? I think there were lots of great effects in that episode. I don't know where bottle show comes from?

There were just a few clips from previous episodes when Weir was explaining what had happened to her. I think clips from "Lifeline" and "Be All My Sins Remembered" were used, but they were quite short.

Jeffala
August 15th, 2008, 08:12 PM
I loved the jumper crashing into the gate and I loved the attitude control thrusters righting the gate. The out of control jumper was also nice. Everything else about the episode was good, if not great, but not really stellar.


Also, right before the jumper goes through the gate, Ronon did something and it looked like he was adjusting his wig (I know he wasn't, but it was still funny).

Woolsey being transported to the balcony and not realizing it until he hit the railing was also really good. That's the second time he's been trapped and not able to get out.

Question, though, how did he get back inside to walk from the East Pier?



Wait so what happened in the end?
They all just agreed to shut themselves down in deep space?

FRAN/Weir betrayed the others and knowingly led them into space. McKay reprogrammed the DHD to send them to an address different from the one that the Asuran fembot dialed. She went through first and then, before shutting down, told the others (through their subspace link) that it was safe to come through.

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 08:13 PM
Absolutely! That scene made me howl with laughter :).....also when he said "I had to walk all the way back..." and then promptly plopped into the chair exhausted. Not very nice of me to cackle, but there you go. :)


Wilson3Girl

Before I realized that Weir liked Woolsey, I kinda thought that this was Weir shutting him out of "her" city. Showing him the door, as it were...:)

Vis Uban
August 15th, 2008, 08:15 PM
It might seem a little strange, but I kinda felt bad for the Replicators there at the end. After all, those that were left did everything that Shepard and Woolsey wanted of them, even when Shepard wanted to destroy them, they didn't fight back. They just wanted a chance to ascend. Then they were frozen for their trouble. I completely understand just how dangerous a threat they were, but it still left a bad taste in my mouth.

Biokinetica
August 15th, 2008, 08:16 PM
Yeah, I can understand where you are coming from, but I think that where they were going was to show how terrible an enemy the replicators are. Weir, by being a replicator, could no longer be trusted. If you couldn't trust one of us turned into them, how could you trust any of them? In the end, Weir realized that she was a threat to the city that she loved and *sniffle* the only friends she has. Thus, she chose to end that threat... completely... Which included herself. She, as she said, "Set things right."I can understand this sentiment, and can see why they (Atlantis and Weir) made the choice. But what about Todd? He's still alive, you know. If anybody can pick up these guys on sensors and reprogram them, it's him.

I'm also disappointed in Rodney's tone as he declares them safely betrayed in a vacuum. No remorse, no tear. Not cool. I'm calling do-overs.

Shan Bruce Lee
August 15th, 2008, 08:16 PM
She really did a fantastic job. It's hard enough pulling off a new character, but it's exponentially harder for another actress to pull off a well-established character. I don't even want to think of all the work she had to go through, trying to get into Weir's mind and mannerisms. Great Work! :)

From what I remember reading (and I could be wrong) she watched hours and hours of SGA/Weir to get the character down. That's a dream job to me :lol:


The city's pseudo-sinking was hardly technologically straining. It submerged itself for all of 5 centimeters, then back to normal. Not tough.

lol


Absolutely! That scene made me howl with laughter :).....also when he said "I had to walk all the way back..." and then promptly plopped into the chair exhausted. Not very nice of me to cackle, but there you go. :)


Wilson3Girl

I missed that second part. I'll look for it in the reairing

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 08:22 PM
I can understand this sentiment, and can see why they (Atlantis and Weir) made the choice. But what about Todd? He's still alive, you know. If anybody can pick up these guys on sensors and reprogram them, it's him.

I'm also disappointed in Rodney's tone as he declares them safely betrayed in a vacuum. No remorse, no tear. Not cool. I'm calling do-overs.

Todd rescues them; they are a tad bid revenge crazed about being freeze dried... Shoot, he wouldn't even have to reprogram them, kinda just unleash them... Weir escapes, builds a new body, rushes to warn Atlantis... I like the way you think!

I wonder if its too late from them to rewrite the finale...

RedvsBlue
August 15th, 2008, 08:24 PM
On the bright side if Torri one day agreed to returned they can come up with some way to just remake her original body

Eri13
August 15th, 2008, 08:24 PM
I came back to S5 to see this episode, because it was Elizabeth, and I wasn't disappointed. I'll always regret the loss of Weir and Torri, but Michelle Morgan did the best she could.

Gracias to Carl Binder for a powerful story, and a really nice, if dark, ending. As an Elizabeth fan, I wasn't hurt by it. It's the potential for her to return if need be, or never, if that's the case.

And I very much appreciated the John/Elizabeth moments. Binder has always been able to write them (or is it 'not write' them? Those looks they share--the last one was heartbreaking) and he did their bond justice here. I liked all the character reactions, actually. And Elizabeth actually saving John in an action moment--so rare for Weir--was very enjoyable.

I found the most Torri-ish the story got was with the line "Is that Richard Woolsey?" that came through the voice projector. I could completely see Torri's expression there, all the way down to the raised eyebrow.

I still miss Torri, but I appreciate that Elizabeth can still bring out a great episode of Atlantis and good performances from her crew.

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 08:24 PM
It also seems that Weir is destined to be kept in stasis/kept on ice ala IOWA... Anyone remember Before I sleep???

Vis Uban
August 15th, 2008, 08:24 PM
Todd rescues them; they are a tad bid revenge crazed about being freeze dried... Shoot, he wouldn't even have to reprogram them, kinda just unleash them... Weir escapes, builds a new body, rushes to warn Atlantis... I like the way you think!

I wonder if its too late from them to rewrite the finale...

Did they learn nothing with FIfth? Oh well, what can a few revenge crazed replicators accomplish?

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 08:26 PM
I came back to S5 to see this episode, because it was Elizabeth, and I wasn't disappointed. I'll always regret the loss of Weir and Torri, but Michelle Morgan did the best she could.

Gracias to Carl Binder for a powerful story, and a really nice, if dark, ending. As an Elizabeth fan, I wasn't hurt by it. It's the potential for her to return if need be, or never, if that's the case.

And I very much appreciated the John/Elizabeth moments. Binder has always been able to write them (or is it 'not write' them? Those looks they share--the last one was heartbreaking) and he did their bond justice here. I liked all the character reactions, actually. And Elizabeth actually saving John in an action moment--so rare for Weir--was very enjoyable.

I found the most Torri-ish the story got was with the line "Is that Richard Woolsey?" that came through the voice projector. I could completely see Torri's expression there, all the way down to the raised eyebrow.

I still miss Torri, but I appreciate that Elizabeth can still bring out a great episode of Atlantis and good performances from her crew.

Beautiful post, and ITA... Would green you if I had that elusive capability reserved for the most seasoned of posters...:):):)

SamJackShipper93
August 15th, 2008, 08:27 PM
:mckay: That's not very nice. To me Carter is still the best leader of Atlantis, Woolsey still has a lot to prove to fans, and besides, if Amanda had stayed, Sam would be owning S5. :samanime15: :sam59:

INDEED!!!!


I'm surprised how much I'm praising this episode. I've been a fan of Atlantis since the beginning (it's actually how I got into Stargate through watching Rising), and I've enjoyed the show, despite the creative slumps (season 2, the second half of season 4), but this is just a prime example of what this show is capable of.

It was a smart story, directed subtly and wonderfully, and brilliantly acted. There was no forced humor, no pointless action, just drama and tension. It worked so very well. It was not dark. It was mature.

And that is a great thing.

Yep, I totally agree. It's nice to know that Stargate is a show that doesn't just rely on drama, or action, they can pull both off beautifully.



"Not so fast my friend" (bad Lee Corso impersonation) I still prefer Carter but Woolsey has been awesome. The scene where he got stuck outside the transporter was hilarious.
Yep, me too!


Absolutely! That scene made me howl with laughter :).....also when he said "I had to walk all the way back..." and then promptly plopped into the chair exhausted. Not very nice of me to cackle, but there you go. :)

I know, I loved that scene so much! I can just imagine Woolsey trekking all the way back. LOL, that was great!

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 08:27 PM
Did they learn nothing with FIfth? Oh well, what can a few revenge crazed replicators accomplish?

Anyone remember the episode "The Reckoning" or "Gemini"????

Biokinetica
August 15th, 2008, 08:29 PM
It might seem a little strange, but I kinda felt bad for the Replicators there at the end. After all, those that were left did everything that Shepard and Woolsey wanted of them, even when Shepard wanted to destroy them, they didn't fight back. They just wanted a chance to ascend. Then they were frozen for their trouble. I completely understand just how dangerous a threat they were, but it still left a bad taste in my mouth.That's exactly how I felt when I first saw the Weir floating. I just went "are you facking kidding me?! http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7109/heartbmn8.gif", and proceeded to register here just because of that...


Todd rescues them; they are a tad bid revenge crazed about being freeze dried... Shoot, he wouldn't even have to reprogram them, kinda just unleash them... Weir escapes, builds a new body, rushes to warn Atlantis... I like the way you think!

I wonder if its too late from them to rewrite the finale...Does sound climactic, doesn't it?

SgaIsBad
August 15th, 2008, 08:30 PM
And Elizabeth actually saving John in an action moment--so rare for Weir--was very enjoyable.


100% agree. If only they let Torri be the strong female leader when she was on the show. I guess TPTB were afraid it would scare the fanboys........

Jeffala
August 15th, 2008, 08:31 PM
One thing that bothers me: No ARGs. Sheppard seemed convinced that shooting the Asurans with bullets would stop them. We've seen many, many times that that's simply not true.

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 08:33 PM
100% agree. If only they let Torri be the strong female leader when she was on the show. I guess TPTB were afraid it would scare the fanboys........

Hey! This fanboy would have LOVED to see that. I thoroughly enjoyed "The Long Goodbye", and I'm in the sought after demographic, the vaunted male 18-45.

I'm special! ...because of my age and gender. Wait a minute...

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 08:34 PM
One thing that bothers me: No ARGs. Sheppard seemed convinced that shooting the Asurans with bullets would stop them. We've seen many, many times that that's simply not true.

Ah! I remind you of the episode, "The Outcast." With limited resources, that replicator would eventually succumb to gunfire. Since these replicaters were programed with oh-so-basic protocols, they would eventually succumb without the ability to replicate.

Vis Uban
August 15th, 2008, 08:35 PM
That's exactly how I felt when I first saw the Weir floating. I just went "are you facking kidding me?! http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7109/heartbmn8.gif", and proceeded to register here just because of that...

I miss the old days where they did the right thing, even if it hurts.

funks
August 15th, 2008, 08:36 PM
One thing that bothers me: No ARGs. Sheppard seemed convinced that shooting the Asurans with bullets would stop them. We've seen many, many times that that's simply not true.

He said eventually, it would stop him..

Those replicators had no replicating / self healing ability - base model.

EvenstarSRV
August 15th, 2008, 08:36 PM
This ep reminds me of Miller's Crossing - interesting with some nice tension and character moments. And then a breathtaking ending. I found lots of good stuff here.

A nice ep with a powerfully emotional ending.

I totally agree. I really enjoyed the episode and as others have said, I think Michelle Morgan did a great job adopting so many of TH's mannerisms that I could really believe she was Weir.

And I really loved Ken Girotti's work as director, he and Martin Wood are my favorite Stargate directors.


I almost cried when the computer typed, "help"... Twice! Then, when the voice synthesizer said, "you're the only friends I have," I, personally, found this gut-wrenching. I think the voice was MM run through a synthesizer, but I'm guessing.

Though, I think that having the computer typing first was a brilliant way to reinto the character. It let the audience imagine TH. Then, the synthesizer tried to mess with that internal picture by introducing a new, but distorted, voice. Finally, we get the new body. I thought it was wise to do it gradually, but that's just my opinion.

I also liked that they brought Weir back to life gradually, words, then voice, then finally a body. That second 'help me' seemed so desperate even though they were just words.

The only odd thing that struck me during the episode was why no one had an ARG with them when they were hunting down the rogue Replicator, it probably would have been more effective than the machine guns. Though it was cool to see Weir take him down herself. :weir:

Jeffala
August 15th, 2008, 08:38 PM
Ah! I remind you of the episode, "The Outcast." With limited resources, that replicator would eventually succumb to gunfire. Since these replicaters were programed with oh-so-basic protocols, they would eventually succumb without the ability to replicate.

Would they succumb before tearing all of the humans' arms off?


He said eventually, it would stop him..

Those replicators had no replicating / self healing ability - base model.

They had limited self-repair abilities. Limited, but still there.

Ruffles
August 15th, 2008, 08:38 PM
Am I the only one that feels like that ending was 'the easy way out'? By that time, Atlantis and the remaining Replicators had gained the trust of each other. So why would they throw away the great chance for a powerful ally so they can have a half-dozen replicators floating around for the wraith to find? Who is to say the wraith wouldn't offer them "revenge" and use them as a weapon? I can't be the only one who sees this as a huge loss, and potential problem later on. http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1890/haaaafg7.png

I would like to disagree with the bolded statement if I may. They didn't trust each other. The other Replicators wouldn't go through the gate until they received an all-clear from Weir. They had absolutely no trust for each other. Woolsey and team was willing to trust Weir, but she wasn't willing to trust her fellow Replicators.

And somehow I doubt the Wraith would do anything more than annihilate them if they found them floating in space. They called the Replicators an abomination and want them dead.


It might seem a little strange, but I kinda felt bad for the Replicators there at the end. After all, those that were left did everything that Shepard and Woolsey wanted of them, even when Shepard wanted to destroy them, they didn't fight back. They just wanted a chance to ascend. Then they were frozen for their trouble. I completely understand just how dangerous a threat they were, but it still left a bad taste in my mouth.

But Sheppard and Woolsey weren't the ones to toss them to the vacuum of space. Weir did out of concern for Atlantis and her people. They all claimed to want ascension even the one Weir killed - and he really meant it but on his terms. Weir had no way of guaranteeing the others didn't have a hidden agenda of their own. She did the one thing she could to protect Atlantis.

jelgate
August 15th, 2008, 08:39 PM
Jelgate's Two CentsWhy most Season 5 continue to get better? I know I might come off as a person who never hates an SGA episode but I really do try to be objective. But it is so hard when I see all these great plots coming from Season 5. I by nature think the story is more important than the character interactions. That’s not to say that I don't find character interactions important but too many times on Stargate and other shows, a good story is hurt because of characters interactions. This may be optimistic jelgate talking but I felt the interaction between the team and the new Elizabeth Weir really helped improve an already strong story.

I see no matter how hard TPTB try they can not get away from the Wizard of Oz references. I do have to admit that the flying monkeys were hilarious. I doubt it will be explained in the future but I want to know why a new Alpha site was being made in the first place. What was so bad about the previous Alpha site? I do admit that the whole Jumper scene was very entertaining. It was interesting to see systems shut down and then all of a sudden reboot. The best part was that genius McKay (:rolleyes:) didn't have a clue was going on. He was in no way helpful in getting the team back to Atlantis. It’s just refreshing when he can't save the day. I won't get started on how cool it was seeing a Jumper crash into the gate.

This next part was kind of predictable to be honest. I mean it wasn't much a surprise that the same thing affecting the Puddle Jumper would also jump to the city from a story telling point of view. But some of the malfunctions were beyond hilarious. Who didn't find Woolsey transported to the other side of Atlantis hilarious? I also dare a whumper to tell me they didn't want Sheppard to get hit by that electrical lightning. I have to say I didn't see the computer typing itself. If SciFi hadn't already ruined it with a clip, I would never have known the entity in the computer was Dr. Weir.

I loved the look on Woolsey's face when McKay sets up the computer patch. The bureaucrat in him knows it is wrong that he is breaking another rule but the leader in him knows that it is the only way to save Atlantis from the electrical problems. The backstory of what has happened between Lifeline and Ghost in the Machine which in IMO in contributed to the fact that Torri declined to appear in S5. That said I was impressed on how TMC and BAMSR were reincorporated into what Elizabeth has been doing as a Replicator under less than ideal circumstances. I am kind of curious if the technological societies that the Asurans discovered a little mention to the enemy that will appear in First Contact.

Even though it is not technically ascension, it was interesting to discover that the rebel Replicators were trying to manufacture their own ascension. It’s an interesting concept that I hope is followed up in a potential Season 6. The digital ascension requires you exist in subspace while real ascension is occupied in a different dimension. I think it would be interesting if the TPTB could try to bridge that gap. I would like to see the Ancients thought if the Asurans were actually able to ascend.

Once again I just love how firm Woolsey is in his decisions. No matter how hard McKay begged him to build a Replicator body for Weir, he still said no. I don't think the other Atlantis leaders would have been as cold as he was. The next part I have to say was predictable. Of course she was going to construct a Replicator body whether we liked it or not. I would have seen it even if I hadn't read spoilers.

I kind of liked the scene between Weir and Teyla. It shows just how much has changed since Lifeline. I was a little bit in shock of how Teyla lied to Weir. I guess it would be obvious that Teyla wouldn't tell her the location of Torren but it still shows how much has changed. Once again, I saw the Replicators following Weir to Atlantis a mile away.

Okay I know I have said this before but this next scene really sold me on the Woolsey character. Even after the Asurans killed a person and started sinking the city, he still refused to give in. It was a huge bluff on his part. Not to mention how the character said. The willingness of him killing the whole expedition just to keep the Asurans from getting bodies and becoming a threat really shows how the character has changes. I just love when he says then we die. (I'm paraphrasing a little.) Of course that whole speech felt a little ruined when Woolsey agreed to let them make organic bodies.

Oh look an Asuran disabled a force field and is now trying to flee the city. I sure didn't see that one coming:rolleyes:. Truthfully, I was surprised that Weir was the one who disabled the Asuran not to mention she used the hand in face thing which was more than spectactular. The ending gave a twist I haven't seen in Stargate for quite some time. I really did not expect the expedition to send the Asurans to a spacegate. And the look on the team's face was beyond sad. Like I said, this season keeps on getting better and better

EvenstarSRV
August 15th, 2008, 08:40 PM
Ah! I remind you of the episode, "The Outcast." With limited resources, that replicator would eventually succumb to gunfire. Since these replicaters were programed with oh-so-basic protocols, they would eventually succumb without the ability to replicate.

But wouldn't it have made more sense to use a weapon that would immediately stop the Replicator rather than one that would eventually stop it? :confused:

BubblingOverWithIdeas
August 15th, 2008, 08:41 PM
Tori Higginson and Michelle Morgan are both great actresses. My mother actually asked if they were sisters, because she saw so much of Weir in Morgan's performance.

Jelgate, could you please use paragraphs? I am not being rude or snotty, it is very difficult to read that large block of text. If you would please edit it, I would be able to read your thoughts on the episode, I'm sure they're interesting.

Ruffles
August 15th, 2008, 08:41 PM
I miss the old days where they did the right thing, even if it hurts.

What do you think was the right thing to do?

Jeffala
August 15th, 2008, 08:42 PM
And how the hell did they plan on building the organic bodies? The Asurans depleted their city's power supplies building 5 of them (Sheppard, Teyla, Rodney, Ronon, & Weir) so how did they plan to build 8 with Atlantis' not-fully-powered ZPM?

Kickoutwoolsey
August 15th, 2008, 08:42 PM
:mckay: That's not very nice. To me Carter is still the best leader of Atlantis, Woolsey still has a lot to prove to fans, and besides, if Amanda had stayed, Sam would be owning S5. :samanime15: :sam59:

You said it Rocky, Carter rules!!!!!!!!!!!!:sam59::sam59::sam59::sam59:, Woolsey sucks :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Shan Bruce Lee
August 15th, 2008, 08:43 PM
Would they succumb before tearing all of the humans' arms off?

lol doubt it.

Vis Uban
August 15th, 2008, 08:45 PM
But Sheppard and Woolsey weren't the ones to toss them to the vacuum of space. Weir did out of concern for Atlantis and her people. They all claimed to want ascension even the one Weir killed - and he really meant it but on his terms. Weir had no way of guaranteeing the others didn't have a hidden agenda of their own. She did the one thing she could to protect Atlantis.

Oh, I completely understand. There was no way of guaranteeing the Replicators continued cooperation, so it had to be done. Like I said though, it just felt...wrong, despite its necessity. Showing that Weir was willing to sacrifice herself for the city was a fantastic way of showing the skeptics in the city that it was still Weir inside. :)

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 08:47 PM
Would they succumb before tearing all of the humans' arms off?



They had limited self-repair abilities. Limited, but still there.

Probably not... A one-shot one-kill ARG would have been better, I agree. I was only pointing out that the machine guns would eventually take them out...

lifeistoobrevis
August 15th, 2008, 08:47 PM
This was, by far, my favorite episode of the 5th Season. It was so nice to have Elizabeth back. I would have preferred to have Torri resume the role, but Michelle did a good job, considering.

It was nice to finally have some idea about what happened to Elizabeth after BAMSR. I thought there was a lot of great emotion and character interaction. The ending definitely tugged at my heartstrings, because it was so something that Elizabeth would have done. I like that the door was left open for her return... and I hope that somehow, someday, Torri can be the one to step back through that door.

Biokinetica
August 15th, 2008, 08:49 PM
I would like to disagree with the bolded statement if I may. They didn't trust each other. The other Replicators wouldn't go through the gate until they received an all-clear from Weir. They had absolutely no trust for each other. Woolsey and team was willing to trust Weir, but she wasn't willing to trust her fellow Replicators.The degree of trust is debatable, however, the existence of trust I don't think is. And "absolutely no trust" I think is pretentious. If there was "absolutely no trust", the replicators would've concocted a plan to destroy them all. Doing as Atlantis wished (with the obvious exception of one) the entire episode showed overt trust, with the double-checking before stepping through the gate simply being a precaution anyone with some sense would've taken. Even if one argued that there was "absolutely no trust" throughout the episode, once Weir "confirmed" safe passage through the gate, all trust on the replicator side was gained. However one wants to cut it, there was trust exchanged in this episode.


And somehow I doubt the Wraith would do anything more than annihilate them if they found them floating in space. They called the Replicators an abomination and want them dead.That was once the sentiment of the unified wraith populace; but now they're not unified, and still know a weapon when they see one. They may be proud, but they sure aren't stupid.

SgaIsBad
August 15th, 2008, 08:49 PM
Jelgate, could you please use paragraphs? I am not being rude or snotty, it is very difficult to read that large block of text. If you would please edit it, I would be able to read your thoughts on the episode, I'm sure they're interesting.

You expect someone to edit their post so you will read it???? Jelgate did use paragraphs.

Vis Uban
August 15th, 2008, 08:50 PM
On one hand I can see the necessity of getting rid of them, but on the other I still think they deserved better.

I couldn't think of a reasonable way to help them, but I still think it should have been tried. After all, they were willing to give the Wraith from that hiveship a chance to become human, why not the Replicators, if suitably watched?

Ruined_puzzle
August 15th, 2008, 08:51 PM
Yes, and not every episode ends with a happy "oh lets grab a bite to eat in the mess hall"
That is possible the worst thing SGA does. I'm glad it didn't happen here.

Vis Uban
August 15th, 2008, 08:57 PM
That was once the sentiment of the unified wraith populace; but now they're not unified, and still know a weapon when they see one. They may be proud, but they sure aren't stupid.

The Wraith also have the ability to reprogram the Replicators, adding all the "bells and whistles" that Rodney removed, and it might be nice to have a nearly indestructible strike team to carry out an important mission, if they could be controlled..

BubblingOverWithIdeas
August 15th, 2008, 08:58 PM
I also dare a whumper to tell me they didn't want Sheppard to get hit by that electrical lightning.

Nah, because that would have killed him. I did want one of the Asurans to borrow his form.

They gave Woolsey what we at TV Tropes like to call a Crowning Moment of Awesome. I kind of figured they would.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
August 15th, 2008, 08:59 PM
The Wraith also have the ability to reprogram the Replicators, adding all the "bells and whistles" that Rodney removed, and it might be nice to have a nearly indestructible strike team to carry out an important mission, if they could be controlled..

Fortunately they should have a hard time stumbling on to them, because the Pegasus galaxy is a big place.

Briangate78
August 15th, 2008, 09:01 PM
That is possible the worst thing SGA does. I'm glad it didn't happen here.

They did that in "Miller's Crossing" which had a very dark ending to it. They should of just faded out after Mckay thanked Sheppard.

chris777
August 15th, 2008, 09:02 PM
I wonder just how far this episode deviated from the writers intentional direction
with the ending of Be All My Sins Remember'd, with Torri deciding not to return.

I was actually impressed with how they wrote in Michelle as wier. Its much more acceptable than having a new actor suddenly called by an ols characters name.

jelgate
August 15th, 2008, 09:04 PM
One thing that bothers me: No ARGs. Sheppard seemed convinced that shooting the Asurans with bullets would stop them. We've seen many, many times that that's simply not true.They can't replicate and fix their injuries like the a normal Replicator which means the Replicator can be taken out with normal bulletes.
You expect someone to edit their post so you will read it???? Jelgate did use paragraphs.To be fair at first I didn't have paragraphs. Sometimes when I post the paragraphs will merge into one giant paragraph.Its a problem with my computer. The more serious posts, I will do a quick edit which usually works to correct the problem

Mekarri
August 15th, 2008, 09:08 PM
That's not giving enough credit to the Morgan. She did exactly what an actress is supposed to do. She adopted different vocal inflections and mannerisms in order to have the audience see the character in a certain way. In this case, the role she was playing was Weir - an established character with distinguishing physical characteristics and movements. Morgan was apparantly able to capture them so well that the audience bought her as Weir in a different body.

That's a serious testament to Morgan's abilities as an actress.

You are right. Morgan is a wonderful actress. I guess a lot of us miss Tori. We have all been on jobs where we felt betrayed or tossed under a bus. I respect that Tori did what was best for her and I think Morgan did a great job. I enjoyed the episode but it made me miss Tori all over again.

Biokinetica
August 15th, 2008, 09:11 PM
Fortunately they should have a hard time stumbling on to them, because the Pegasus galaxy is a big place.And the Wraith are a big race. I think there are more than enough still left in the galaxy to justify a 'stumble-upon' plot-line in a future episode. After that, I don't see why the Wraith couldn't pull up beside the replicators in a cruiser, reprogram them while they're still frozen (sound familiar? http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6784/smiletm6.png), then unleash them on all their enemies. And oh yeah, did I mention that we never got a confirmation on Michael's status?

suse
August 15th, 2008, 09:14 PM
over all the ep was boring, redundant and counterproductive.

Glad TH turned it down. makes me think Fran really wasn't Wier after all. Man do tptb know how to screw a character over. "Fran" was a poor knock off of weir IMO.

It would have been more interesting if she stayed in the computer and typed communications with the team.

Them reading a computer screen is more interesting than flesh and blood interaction? Well, you have a right to your opinion.

I found the actress to do an incredible job as Weir. She really got Torri's Weir mannerisms down. It was uncanny. If they couldn't use Torri... I think this actually worked out better. :P It was certainly easier for me to watch.

Nice reactions from the team. And Woolsey's surprising backbone was fun. :D He looked like he was sooo ready to cave when the Replicators backed down. I immediately thought of when he was there rating Sam and she took a chance that worked out. He learned from one of the best. :D

suse

Major_Griff
August 15th, 2008, 09:16 PM
I thought this was a good episode, I saw the space-gate thing a mile away, but it was still a huge impact moment, which along with wanting to leave the Weir door slightly open is why they had them do that. To me, activating the built in kill switch they spoke about early makes more sense. That would mean no one could accidently come across them in space and reactivate them. I kinda hate it that they wrapped Weir in with the repli-story, because I am really getting tired of it and hope it's finally over, which sucks because I really like Weir. As much as I've been enjoying S4-5, I miss her. every time I watch This Mortal Coil, and see Tori with the cast again, it just feels right, you know. Oh well, any way I give it a solid 7/10.

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 09:20 PM
Anyone else wonder why Koricon (sp?) was allowed to speak for the others to Woolsey? After all, the last time they followed his advise, they ended up stranded in subspace. If it had been me, I would have been saying, "You, you don't get to decide another thing for us, EVER!" He would have been voted out of Replicator Survivors.

Ncc-72452
August 15th, 2008, 09:23 PM
I thought this was a good episode, I saw the space-gate thing a mile away, but it was still a huge impact moment, which along with wanting to leave the Weir door slightly open is why they had them do that. To me, activating the built in kill switch they spoke about early makes more sense. That would mean no one could accidently come across them in space and reactivate them. I kinda hate it that they wrapped Weir in with the repli-story, because I am really getting tired of it and hope it's finally over, which sucks because I really like Weir. As much as I've been enjoying S4-5, I miss her. every time I watch This Mortal Coil, and see Tori with the cast again, it just feels right, you know. Oh well, any way I give it a solid 7/10.

I TOTALLY agree with your sentiments about seeing Torri with the cast again. In fact, a cut beginning from TMC was Torri coming into view behind Chuck and saying, "Finally, things can get back to normal around here." I miss her on the show a great deal.

Vis Uban
August 15th, 2008, 09:32 PM
I thought this was a good episode, I saw the space-gate thing a mile away, but it was still a huge impact moment, which along with wanting to leave the Weir door slightly open is why they had them do that. To me, activating the built in kill switch they spoke about early makes more sense. That would mean no one could accidently come across them in space and reactivate them. I kinda hate it that they wrapped Weir in with the repli-story, because I am really getting tired of it and hope it's finally over, which sucks because I really like Weir. As much as I've been enjoying S4-5, I miss her. every time I watch This Mortal Coil, and see Tori with the cast again, it just feels right, you know. Oh well, any way I give it a solid 7/10.

I think there"s been a definite void in the cast since Weir's departure. I know Carter and Woolsey have their fans, but I mean no offense, but I don't think either filled the void she left. I've always felt that Weir was Atlantis's soul, and the last few seasons have been...emptier for lack of a better word without her. It felt like the good old days, making it all the more poignant for me when Weir sacrificed herself for the team again.

markaudette
August 15th, 2008, 09:40 PM
I give up.

I hated the episode.

It had just a few moments of hope as when the crew found out it was elizabeth that was trying to contact them.

But in the end, I am just extremelly disgusted that the writers keep cannabalizing previous plot elemements from previous episodes.

I'm sorry my fellow Gateheads, but I hearby officially resign as a 'Gate fan. I'm handing over my DHD and walking out whichever door Torri Higginson was shown.

Shipperahoy
August 15th, 2008, 09:43 PM
I'm still trying to digest this one. I'm still weighing the pros and cons.

First, I have to give kudos to Michelle Morgan, who took a difficult part and, IMO, nailed it. While I really would have loved to see Torri reprise her role Michelle managed to get a lot of Torri's mannerisms and speech inflections down pat and yet still make the part her own. Great job.

On the downside, I can't help but feel deep down as though this was just an expedient way to get the Elizabeth plot out of the way. Perhaps I'm being too cynical though. I guess there's a part of me that was hoping a door would be left open for Torri to return and, while it's not entirely out of the question as we've seen that replicators can survive in space for periods of time before, it doesn't seem very likely.

The end was incredibly moving and definately seemed like the kind of self-sacrifice that Elizabeth would have been willing and able to make if she thought it in the best interests of the people on Atlantis and yet it felt so callous on the part of the team. To be fair, they did not show any kind of arguement or conversation during which Elizabeth/Fran proposed her idea so perhaps, theoretically she had to bully them in to it, but there seemed to be not much in the way of remorse after the fact with the possible exception of Sheppard. They had their obligatory moment of sadness after she and the others went through but then they just went their way, business as usual. I guess it just seems to me that Elizabeth meant enough to them before that I don't see them so easily letting her go to her death if there was any chance she could be with them. Still, it was an expedient way to tie up the Weir story for the writers.

Then there's Woolsey. I am among those who had concerns about him taking over Atlantis considering his history as a foil and, let's face it, kind of a bumbling and spineless coward. While I am happy that he's turned out not to be so on Atlantis it does seem as though he's had a complete personality transplant and the change from an uptight and cowardly bureaucrat to someone with the balls to basically play a game of chicken with the replicators is startling. Perhaps they grew him a spine and managed to surgically remove that stick up his bum in that nifty Ancient lab.

Lythisrose
August 15th, 2008, 10:28 PM
For me one of the best episodes this season. It was powerful and sad and gave me a bit of closure for Weir. I thought MM was incredible as Elizabeth. The ending had me in tears, watching Sheppards emotions cross his face as he knew he had lost her once again.

g.o.d
August 15th, 2008, 10:28 PM
after one year(Lifeline), thsi is the next episode I didn't use fast-forward button. I really liked. Michelle Morgan is absolutely amazing!!!! And that ending..I wouldn't expect such ending from SGA, it was more like BSG style. I really loved this episode

Amakusa
August 15th, 2008, 10:30 PM
My favorite part of the episode was when Woolsey called the Replicators' bluff. And then the expression he had when they decided not to sink the city was priceless.

When you think about it, other than annihilating the Replicators outright, that was perhaps the only 'humane' way to deal with them.

Although, personally, I hate the Replicators... always have. I thought they really brought the show down after SG-1 went through all the trouble of destroying them. And I loved that Woolsey was the one that was pointing out, pound-for-pound, that the Replicators are just too dangerous to mess around with.

ussrelativity
August 15th, 2008, 10:31 PM
I give up.

I hated the episode.

It had just a few moments of hope as when the crew found out it was elizabeth that was trying to contact them.

But in the end, I am just extremelly disgusted that the writers keep cannabalizing previous plot elemements from previous episodes.

I'm sorry my fellow Gateheads, but I hearby officially resign as a 'Gate fan. I'm handing over my DHD and walking out whichever door Torri Higginson was shown.

I haven't seen the episode yet, but there seem to be some good elements to it.

And by your DHD, do you mean your GDO?

McKayManiacs92
August 15th, 2008, 10:33 PM
but there seemed to be not much in the way of remorse after the fact with the possible exception of Sheppard. They had their obligatory moment of sadness after she and the others went through but then they just went their way, business as usual. I guess it just seems to me that Elizabeth meant enough to them before that I don't see them so easily letting her go to her death if there was any chance she could be with them. Still, it was an expedient way to tie up the Weir story for the writers.


Although after the second viewing...I think Rodney's line about her really being the true Weir and then walking away with as much emotion as he did showed how upset he was with the fact that he was close to saving his almost "mistake" but instead had to relive losing Weir again. After all his motive for wanting to help her and believe her was mentioned, and to have to willingly let her go, and know it was truly Weir to sacrifice herself like that must have made him boil.

Still a great, but sad ending....

eclectro
August 15th, 2008, 10:45 PM
I'm sorry my fellow Gateheads, but I hearby officially resign as a 'Gate fan. I'm handing over my DHD and walking out whichever door Torri Higginson was shown.

I think that you are whining over nothing. Stargate is filled with character discontinuities from the beginning when it went from being a movie to TV show and whenever an actor left the set for whatever reason.

I'm a huge Torri fan and wanted to see her again. I kinda hope that at some later date she can be brought back the same way Spock was.

Part of the problem is that both series have had by any measure long and successful runs, more than many other TV shows. Which just by it's nature can be problematic in some ways for a production company.

Kraft
August 15th, 2008, 11:01 PM
This was a great episode but I'm a bit confused.

Did we see when Elizabeth/Fran communicated the data for rodney to configure the DHD to make them go through the space gate? because I'm curious to know if they found out before they made the deal to make human bodies for themselves. If they had stuck to the plan they could've ascended and IMO that would be a lot worse than replicators.. did i miss something?

g.o.d
August 15th, 2008, 11:08 PM
I'm confused :confused: in the beginning when they hit gate, didn't they enter the gate from the other side?

metabog
August 15th, 2008, 11:30 PM
It's amazing how all the "brilliant" episodes and season spotlights of the past three seasons were replicator related, yet everyone seems to hate the replicators.

Detox
August 15th, 2008, 11:31 PM
I give up.

I hated the episode.

It had just a few moments of hope as when the crew found out it was elizabeth that was trying to contact them.

But in the end, I am just extremelly disgusted that the writers keep cannabalizing previous plot elemements from previous episodes.

I'm sorry my fellow Gateheads, but I hearby officially resign as a 'Gate fan. I'm handing over my DHD and walking out whichever door Torri Higginson was shown.

Meh. Doubtful anyone cares.

Matthew486DX
August 15th, 2008, 11:31 PM
Luckily though, the red shirt got it instead.

LOL, that's exactly what I said to someone on IMs as it happened.

"The SGA Redshirt just died."

I guess Scientists with the old style SGA uniform are the SGA redshirts now?

Anyway, the best way I can describe this episode "Life Altering", I just don't feel the same after watching it. Just... incredible. Jumper smashing into the SpaceGate, hilariously cool, Woosly calling the Replicators bluff and... Space Gate Death. There's been KaWhoosh Death, Iris Death, Gate Shield Death, Cold Lonely Death.... but walking through a SpaceGate and 'dying' in open space... that is a new one.

Absolutely moving, this episode was.

surfcity
August 15th, 2008, 11:36 PM
This was an excellent episode. Questions were answered, but at the same time, there were indications of future storylines. Sad,too. I've never been a big Elizabeth fan (or TH, anyway), but the ending was well done. I almost felt sorry for them. (They did almost try to sink the city.)

That said, the ending left the door open to bring them back again. It seems like the replicators never really go away. Also, the question about Teyla's son and where he was, I think, was a key to the episode. Made me wonder if Michael was somehow involved. Teyla was right in her suspicion.

surfcity
August 15th, 2008, 11:54 PM
That was utterly brilliant.

Secondly, the story. Wow. The entire opening bit was full of character moments and was just a great slice of life for the team. Flying monkeys, I love it!


Ghost in the Machine: 6/5!

Best episode of the season so far, and the season has rocked.

The whole opening sequence, flying monkeys and all,was an homage to SG-1, I believe, and their constant references to the Wizard of Oz. It was fun. I enjoyed it.

Brain_Child
August 15th, 2008, 11:59 PM
Meh, Didn't particularly like this episode, but the ending saved it.

Started out with all that flying monkey talk, decent for a joke or two but a little drawn out IMO. They should have made it a short 15-20 second opeing joke and then jumped right into the problem and used the extra viewing time to show more of the central plot. Also all systems being down, life support out and being stranded slowly moving toward a planet was building up some tension and excitement in my mind. However all this build up was dissolved when everything miraculously came back online and they went through the gate. I felt a little offput, the show began with a certain type of episode was being portrayed of puddlejumper panic but then the show became an emotional affair. so the start could have been better thought out, i definately think the puddlejumper scene should have been extended a bit longer before being so easily resolved.

the show then picked up again when they started talking to a computer consciousness, being Weir. weir then building herself a body and the negotiations and beautiful bluff call by Woolsey with the other replicators was also building a lot of great tension. But it seemed to be resolved again a bit oddly with the SGA guys agreeing to let the replicators take physical form. It seemed a bit soft. the previous scene had just established that SGA was in control as they had the replicator-building machine, but somehow the replicators came out on top.

But the ending was done pretty well, excellent way to round off the episode. I was getting a bit worried when they were imposing restrictions on what the replicators could do. I was thinking "Just blow up thier butts. THERE REPLICATORS!" but the ending was great, better than the rest of the episode. Wasnt sad but rather pleased. and i dont see how you can really be that upset. Replicators are evil, period. Destroy them at all costs. Even Weir has shown that she has changed significantly, lieing to Atlantis. Yea, its Weir, but how much is pure human weir? 10%? 20% maybe? Furthermore Weir admitted she cant guarantee that the Koracen incident wont repeat itself, and that she herself was a risk. So the ending was great, totally justified (I even thought that they should severe the connection and dial out again, so that the last few replicators would be destroyed by the stargate vortex) and im glad that the SGA team and SGA writers had the guts to end it like that.

Just thinking that they could have done the ending slightly differently. Picture this. Weir says she will go first and steps through the gate. Then you see the other guys go in and finally the camera follows the very last replicator through the gate. then the effect of travelling through the blue tunnel is shown, like we got a lot in the first seasons of SG-1. Next another scene is superimposed onto the tunnel effect, so that you can clearly see this scene but you can also vaguely see the blue tunnel turning and twisting. This new scene is Weir, just weir by herself with no other replicators, telling the SGA team that she needs to protect atlantis. Then cut to a new scene with Weir, Mckay and Radek working on computers doing their thing. Then you see them complete it. Weir says "Are you sure?", Mckay replies kind of solemly "Yea, no matter what gate you dial to, you will be taken to this specific space gate." As Mckay says that the blue tunnel comes back into focus and the camera passes through the other side ending up in space. We see the other replicants floating there too. I just think this could have been a better way to explain what happened, showing that Weir was really Weir and also making it clear that she should kill her buddies for atlantis.

so thats what i thought. ending was promising but took a different direction too quickly. the show built up once more but the deal with the replicators was a little contradictory to the previous scene but the ending was great.

3/5

DaCk
August 16th, 2008, 12:02 AM
I really liked this episode. It was very good. A few things bugged me about it. Mainly that Rodney never mentioned anything about the replicators ship or anything interesting that he found out in weirs intel on technologically advanced civilizations in the pegasus galaxy. And yay for Fran! Loved her. I prefer her playing dr weir anyday. I couldnt stand TH voice.

Btw there was one thing that i was confused about. John mentioned uploading her consciousness into a virtual reality. Like they did with ava? When was this? Its late and im tired so i may be just be forgetting something but what was he referring to?

Beckmen
August 16th, 2008, 12:11 AM
Outcast, the one where they went to Earth to hunt a Replicator (that wasn't technically a Replicator), season 4.

Linzi
August 16th, 2008, 12:30 AM
I loved this episode!

I firstly have to give credit to Michelle Morgan here. At times I thought it WAS Weir there. Both from the mannerisms and even her physical appearance. I was never a big Weir played by Torri fan, but I felt very sad at the end. It touched me. Kudos to CB and TPTB for ending the episode that way. I didn't expect that ending and it REALLY was a big surprise for me. A pleasant one that was unpleasant, if that makes sense?

So, where to start?

I found this a really engaging story. I needed the last scene of BAMSR to be resolved, and I felt I got resolution here. As far as I'm concerned, that's hopefully the end of the replicators. I've had enough of them now, but I did want that story finished and I felt it was brilliantly done. I got closure for the replicators and Weir. :)


I watched this episode totally absorbed in the story, which is a good thing for me.

I enjoyed all the characters. Rodney's desire to rectify what he perceives as his mistake, Sheppard's sadness at losing Weir again, not that she was the Weir we'd all known. She could never be trusted again. Woolsey really showing he has balls and can call the enemy's bluff.

I liked the way we didn't know what the problem was for a while. Malfunctions in the Jumper... I adored it when it crashed into the 'gate! Then malfunctions in Atlantis. Very well done. I thought the way it was explained how Weir didn't have her original appearance was very cleverly done. Totally believable and it worked so well. Michelle Morgan is a great actress and I was very impressed with how she tackled this role.

All the explanations about what had happened to these 'lost souls' was very well done and the science sounded believable, in the Stargate universe, anyway!


As I said, the end was so good. Having read this thread, I picked up on something I hadn't quite realised. I didn't realise Weir was in on the plan. I thought the team had tricked her too, but that she didn't let on once she was through the 'gate. But reading here I can see that she was in on it. How did I miss that? :lol: :o Either way, I understand why the team did what they did. It was the only way to neutralise the replicators and Weir obviously realised that she couldn't trust herself or any of the other replicators again.

So, this is going to get 8.5/10 from me. A wonderfully written, powerful story which gave me much needed resolution. Congrats to all those involved. :)

hank
August 16th, 2008, 12:31 AM
ok episode was watchable but i don't see myself watching it again

ussrelativity
August 16th, 2008, 12:53 AM
Screencaps, anyone?

General Yogi Bear
August 16th, 2008, 01:22 AM
[QUOTE=Shipperahoy;8765492]I'm still trying to digest this one. I'm still weighing the pros and cons.

The end was incredibly moving and definately seemed like the kind of self-sacrifice that Elizabeth would have been willing and able to make if she thought it in the best interests of the people on Atlantis and yet it felt so callous on the part of the team. To be fair, they did not show any kind of arguement or conversation during which Elizabeth/Fran proposed her idea so perhaps, theoretically she had to bully them in to it, but there seemed to be not much in the way of remorse after the fact with the possible exception of Sheppard. They had their obligatory moment of sadness after she and the others went through but then they just went their way, business as usual. I guess it just seems to me that Elizabeth meant enough to them before that I don't see them so easily letting her go to her death if there was any chance she could be with them. Still, it was an expedient way to tie up the Weir story for the writers.

I agree with this. Whatever happened to leaving no one behind. SG-1 would have never let one of their team members do this. The team (Shep.,Teyla,Mckay,Ronan) just seemed out of character. And Wier at the end did too. I think she would of asked the replicators be given a second chance and sheppard would of too. It was a great episode but had a bad ending. As a big Torri and Wier fan I just didnt think it did her character justice. Ha, sorry to be such a downer.

Shan Bruce Lee
August 16th, 2008, 01:36 AM
I really liked this episode. It was very good. A few things bugged me about it. Mainly that Rodney never mentioned anything about the replicators ship or anything interesting that he found out in weirs intel on technologically advanced civilizations in the pegasus galaxy. And yay for Fran! Loved her. I prefer her playing dr weir anyday. I couldnt stand TH voice.

Well he's still got all that information...

ussrelativity
August 16th, 2008, 01:41 AM
I hope we get a transcript soon.

Krichton
August 16th, 2008, 01:45 AM
Nice episode. I liked the actress playing Weir. Cute too. Funny how they actually found someone that kind of looked like Higginson. However the ending was horrible because this arch really only served the purpose of telling this one self contained story. Why not use this as an opportunity to introduce a "new" character to the show? She could have been the new Data or Seven of Nine, etc. :) No instead they have her walk into space. The end.

Agent_Dark
August 16th, 2008, 01:46 AM
I give up.

I hated the episode.

It had just a few moments of hope as when the crew found out it was elizabeth that was trying to contact them.

But in the end, I am just extremelly disgusted that the writers keep cannabalizing previous plot elemements from previous episodes.

I'm sorry my fellow Gateheads, but I hearby officially resign as a 'Gate fan. I'm handing over my DHD and walking out whichever door Torri Higginson was shown.

why? new weir is heaps better

ussrelativity
August 16th, 2008, 02:12 AM
^ Uh-huh!

We really need some Fran smilies. Just take the Weir one and give her the Fran hair! :)

bluealien
August 16th, 2008, 02:27 AM
Woolsey was the best thing about this episode and I am beginning to like him more each week. Other than that what did we learn about Weir.. she almost kills the team in the jumper and then puts the entire expedition and Atlantis at risk because she wants a body.. She lied to everyone and ultimately got a guy killed. But she claims she didnt expect anyone to get hurt !!! She admits that she couldn't guarantee that the others would do what she wants but yet she leads them to Atlantis anyway.

Only for Woolseys backbone and quick thinking Atlantis would have been at the bottom of the ocean and all because of Weir.....

So she has a moment of conscience at the end and decides to do the right thing which she should have done in the beginning.... so she gates into space but she is a REPLICATOR so they can't die.. its not like she is going to sufficate so why is it such a sad ending... we are right back to where we started ... Weir is not dead and is still out there...

I guess so she can return another day in some even more bizarre way to pose a threat to Altantis.

And once again it's Ronon who doesn't trust her and once again he gets ignored..:rolleyes:

So I really didnt see the point of this episode at all.. we learnt nothing more except that Weir got disembodied from her conscience but she is still hanging around.. no pun intended.

The most exciting part of the episode was the first 5 minutes when the jumper was about to crash and when the city started to sink ... the rest was just boring and we still have no resolution to the Replicators or to Weir.

kufan76
August 16th, 2008, 02:29 AM
Wow, this is a great episode! The FLYING MONKEYS! References to the wizard of OZ, a great reminder of SG-1, and all the references in those past years! The conversation was great about it, and then back on atlantis, when Sheppard was explaining it to Woolsey, he says, they were flying?

This was a great episode to finish off weir, woolsey was good once again, and I felt they did a great job explaining how it all came about, and filling in after we saw weir after the replicator planet was destroyed.

I believe weir is dead, completely, totally. Here's why, remember, when she took back her replicator form she had to use Rodney's preprogrammed replicator form, Fran. They also discuss in detail that these replicators can't change shape, replicate, do anything really, that's why Sheppard said when that karazon rep. got out, something to the effect of if we shoot him enough, he'll go down eventually. or something like that. Remember Niam? he was revived because he was a replicator who could be healed, because his nanites could repair themselves. Weir and the others according to Rodney, possibly had limited repairing abilities, but when you saw Korazon, after sheppard shot him, he still showed the damage from the bullets. So I believe, once they stepped thru the gate, the will suffer the same effects as niam did, but will be unable to repair that amount of damage, and they will be dead.

What they don't answer difinitively, is did weir come up with the space gate plan, or did she come up with a go to an uninhabited planet plan, that woolsey changed?

The weir/teyla stuff was ok, I felt Teyla should not have been so eager to volunteer information about her child...especially with Michael still out there, and if there's anyone who could bring the weir replicator back, it would be him, or course that might be the point of the conversation.

I also believe their could be many story lines attributed to the knowledge, and info, tech, that weir uploaded into their computers...possibly information on the alien race from "deadelus variations?" Information on wraith tech etc...

Sly12
August 16th, 2008, 02:52 AM
I really enjoied this episode... I'm sad that TPTB didn't try to comprimise... I liked the FRAN idea and it worked better than I could have imagined... but it would of been nice to have had Torri's voice to give you that definate anchor, espically as it wouldn't required much effort to record the dialogue (obviously just for the parts where shes talks through the computer, not as a voice over, lol).

This episode really reminded me of one my SG1 favs, Menace, the emotional part between Jack and Daniel after they stop the replicator threat and their arguement. You kind of get the same vibe between McKay and Sheppard with the last line.

Descended
August 16th, 2008, 03:27 AM
Did anyone else see the computer type out:

All your base are belong to us? - during the typing to Weir scene, or am I hallucinating?

Kinda a nice geeky joke

metabog
August 16th, 2008, 03:32 AM
So is it safe to say Woolsey is atlantis' new breakout character? I liked every single scene with him in these 5 episodes.

Descended
August 16th, 2008, 03:34 AM
They also discuss in detail that these replicators can't change shape, replicate, do anything really, that's why Sheppard said when that karazon rep. got out, something to the effect of if we shoot him enough, he'll go down eventually. or something like that. Remember Niam? he was revived because he was a replicator who could be healed, because his nanites could repair themselves. Weir and the others according to Rodney, possibly had limited repairing abilities, but when you saw Korazon, after sheppard shot him, he still showed the damage from the bullets.

I wondered throughout this episode why they didn't use the ARGs to kill the replicators? I am sure that as a safety precaution when he programmed Fran, that Rodney would have made sure she was susceptible to them, in fact, I seem to remember the guards around her carrying them while they were guarding her, so why not break them out of storage?

Also, why wouldn't the Replicators want to become human? The only reason they seem to be unable to ascend is because they are machines, so occupying human bodies should give them the chance to ascend the old fashioned way, by "releasing their burden."

markaudette
August 16th, 2008, 03:36 AM
/Looks at the DHD pagoda and then looks at my GDO, realizes it would be A LOT more conveinant to turn in my GDO.

metabog
August 16th, 2008, 03:38 AM
Anyone want to bet the replicators will ascend while floating in space?

As sad and dramatic as it was, I feel it was a bit too much to effectively kill them all, including Elizabeth just because Atlantis was too scared to let them work on being human.

senilegreen
August 16th, 2008, 03:45 AM
They also discuss in detail that these replicators can't change shape, replicate, do anything really

Rodney, in his little dissertation to the boss on what the Fran-type bodies could do, DID mention that they could do basic repairs.

There is no reason the replicator body should die in space (they don't need atmosphere.) They just freeze up. I guess over a long enough time that their bodies could be damaged, and being frozen would not be able to effect repairs... but we are talking millions of years being buffeted by small grains of sand or asteroids.

g.o.d
August 16th, 2008, 03:46 AM
Did anyone else see the computer type out:

All your base are belong to us? - during the typing to Weir scene, or am I hallucinating?

Kinda a nice geeky joke

then we're both halucinating;)

Jeff O'Connor
August 16th, 2008, 03:54 AM
I'm amazed. This was definitely the best episode of the season thusfar, and with the exception of 'The Seed', I've thought all five to be above average.

As usual, I'm here well enough after a plethora of other viewers that there isn't so much I can think of to say that hasn't been already been said, but I will agree that virtually everything about tonight's showing was spot-on. The directing of Ken Girotti is definitely at the top tier for me in the Stargate franchise now. (Interestingly enough, I watched 'Ethon' when it came on afterward, which was also done by him, and paid closer to attention to his decisions and this helped boost him even higher.)

The writing was some of the best we've ever seen with this series, from flying monkeys and displaced expedition leaders, to the computer scene and Weir's interactions with the cast, to the look between she and John and the genuinely jaw-dropping endgame revelation. While typically I feel too much like an outcast when the big moment at the end of an episode keeps us viewers in the dark from the characters' decision-making, this was certainly a case where the exemption to the rule pops up. I'm glad we had no idea until the 'Asian' Replicator stepped through and found out, herself.

Words cannot speak enough in admiration for how well Michelle Morgan did in stepping into the unresolved plotline. To be honest with everyone, the level of amazement so many had for her in last year's 'Be All My Sins Remember'd' puzzled me a tad; while she was by no means bad, she just didn't have enough screentime to really steal my heart. But tonight, I feel the fool for not having recognized her talent sooner. As we know, she studied Torri Higginson's performance to keep in-tune with the character, and every single moment I was looking for that -- and every single moment, I found it. She had the character down as well as possible, with the addition of, as she puts it in the interview, the fact that she's been through hell and such, and I really, truly felt it.

I agree with all those who have commented that the episode's utilized CGI was stellar. That opening sequence with the Puddle Jumper was just beautiful; for starters, whenever a nebula, gas cloud or somesuch with all its pretty colors to add to the scheme is in the background, I automatically get all excited. But the Jumper's collision with the Spacegate was just plain awesome. Honorable mentions to the short but sweet glossing-over of Atlantis starting to sink, and of course as always I do so love when an Asuran dissolves.

Now what could have been better, in my opinion? More than anything, I feel there wasn't enough interaction between Weir and the team. This might be a mainstay complaint in looking back at this episode for a lot of people, I'd imagine, but there certainly must be understanding for the fact that there was just the 44 minutes to stuff all this intensity into the episode. Even still, what scenes we saw between she and the rest were largely comprised of the uncertainty of her intentions; recognizing that now that all might be said and done in regard to the character, the final scene between she and Teyla together, for example, sees her being lied to, is a bit disappointing.

That's what it all comes down to for the negative side of things. If more general plot were constructed, I think 'Ghost In The Machine' would have done better as a two-parter, but a big chunk of that is me selfishly wanting there to have been more character moments on the positive side of things. That little moment between John and Elizabeth right before she stepped through at the end, especially in retrospect after having the chance to recognize what was truly happening, made my week, but it would have been nice to see more of that.

While I received the news-related blow of my amateur career when I learned that Torri Higginson would not be returning at all for Season Five, 'Ghost In The Machine' did the best it could, IMO, in making up for that still-sore spot in my heart over the matter. While the character of Elizabeth Weir will forever be immortalized as a slight laughing stock in regard to having, ultimately, had three actresses portray her, there are quite a few fans who loved her as much as I did and hoped that regardless of all the behind-the-scenes what-have-yous, she'd have a powerful ending. I believe we've been given that much. (Besides, the Steen-to-Higginson change was a lot more ridiculous; at least this time, there was plenty of story-related sensibility.)

If this turns out to be revisited somehow in the future, I welcome it to a certain extent. It was a powerful resolve, but I wouldn't mind seeing one of my favorite characters in the franchise back regardless. If this was the last we'll ever see of Elizabeth Weir, RIP. You were spectacular.

Jeff O'Connor
August 16th, 2008, 03:54 AM
Did anyone else see the computer type out:

All your base are belong to us? - during the typing to Weir scene, or am I hallucinating?

Kinda a nice geeky joke

I didn't see it, but I'm jealous of you.

Brain_Child
August 16th, 2008, 05:04 AM
Anyone want to bet the replicators will ascend while floating in space?

Nah, no way. But I bet that another of those "advanced civilisations" that Weir mentioned will pick them up and study them, allowing them to get back into the picture

Linda06
August 16th, 2008, 05:25 AM
Well that was kinda boring for the most part....Not much Teyla or Ronon,i knew it was too good to last....Even when we did see them all they done was stand about looking concerned or worried...

So it's come back to the how can Rodney save the day this week huh...Does does realise he's got a scientific team doesn't he? And what's that guys name he keeps telling to kepp out of the way....Um,Zelenka isn't it? What,isn't he allowed to do anything except stand about and presumably get in Rodney's way all the time :rolleyes:

I LOVE WOOLSEY.....The best thing about this mediocre ep...He has got some backbone and he's one hell of a bluffer...If he was bluffing that is....Plus he didn't let Rodney walk all over him and do anything he wanted...Woolsey knew the risks and he stuck to his guns so kudos to him for standing up to Rodney :D

I admit i was on the fence in regards to Woolsey coming over as the new leader but the more i see him the more i like him....He doesn't let himself get bullied :D

Oh and that's very interesting that Fran/Elizabeth or whoever she was thought that John was the father of Teyla's baby:o

jds1982
August 16th, 2008, 05:35 AM
Did anyone else see the computer type out:

All your base are belong to us? - during the typing to Weir scene, or am I hallucinating?

Kinda a nice geeky joke

I thought it did that too.

Jeff O'Connor
August 16th, 2008, 05:40 AM
Gosh, I'm glad I DVR'd it. I have to look for that tomorrow evening post-employment. (I work 4pm-12am, PST, so this being nearly 7am PST means my bedtime is calling.)

foggygirl
August 16th, 2008, 05:52 AM
Excellent episode! The best (so far) of this season in my opinion. This episode struck a real emotional chord with Michelle's portrayal of Weir and I would love it if she were to come back for more episodes. I really miss Torri but Michelle did an excellent job and you really felt for her at the end when she stepped through the gate into space.

Also enjoyed Woolsey being a bit of hard ass when the Replicators were sinking the city I thought for sure that he was going to cave! way to go Woolsey!

Southern Red
August 16th, 2008, 05:54 AM
First of all, kudos to Carl Binder. He has always been my favorite writer. And mega kudos to JF and MM. I was very nervous going into this, but they totally sold it for me. I will always miss TH, but MM was a very good substitute.

Good stuff:

-flying monkeys
-hitting the space gate
-Woolsey trapped on the balcony
-Shep's high knee lift when the lightning almost got him
-Rodney wasn't annoying.
-Is that Richard Woolsey? lol

Great stuff:
-JF's angsty faces. He outdid himself here.
-the Weir/Teyla moment. I think Teyla lied to protect her family. And I really loved that Weir knew all about Kanaan. Shows how close they were. Too bad we never saw much of it.
-the Weir/Sheppard leadership dynamic picking up right where it left off down to the looks and the joined at the hip positioning.
-Woolsey was a good leader. He did the right things.
-Weir saving Shep's butt for a change, and the look on his face. Priceless.
-Shep isn't the only one who gets to be the hero and sacrifice himself. The ending was just heartbreaking.
-Sheppard thinking she would want to stay. He really didn't give up. Thanks again CB.

Not so good:
-a bit too much technobabble in the first half
-not enought Ronon, but you can't have everything

jelgate
August 16th, 2008, 05:55 AM
Well that was kinda boring for the most part....Not much Teyla or Ronon,i knew it was too good to last....Even when we did see them all they done was stand about looking concerned or worried...So it's come back to the how can Rodney save the day this week huh...Does does realise he's got a scientific team doesn't he? And what's that guys name he keeps telling to kepp out of the way....Um,Zelenka isn't it? What,isn't he allowed to do anything except stand about and presumably get in Rodney's way all the time :rolleyes:I LOVE WOOLSEY.....The best thing about this mediocre ep...He has got some backbone and he's one hell of a bluffer...If he was bluffing that is....Plus he didn't let Rodney walk all over him and do anything he wanted...Woolsey knew the risks and he stuck to his guns so kudos to him for standing up to Rodney :DI admit i was on the fence in regards to Woolsey coming over as the new leader but the more i see him the more i like him....He doesn't let himself get bullied :DOh and that's very interesting that Fran/Elizabeth or whoever she was thought that John was the father of Teyla's baby:oI don't really seeing Rodney saving the day in this episode. What did he do that was so helpful in saving Atlantis?

Jeff O'Connor
August 16th, 2008, 05:59 AM
I don't really seeing Rodney saving the day in this episode. What did he do that was so helpful in saving Atlantis?

Yeah, seriously. There are plenty of episodes in Atlantis' back log that have way, way bigger examples of Rodney saving the day. To say such a thing happened here would be like calling a painting with black spots and seven different stripes too black after it was revised from an all-black original.

Don't even ask. I'm very tired, so whatever that meant, don't even ask. I hope somehow you get the idea... :o

Linda06
August 16th, 2008, 06:10 AM
I don't really seeing Rodney saving the day in this episode. What did he do that was so helpful in saving Atlantis?

I meant.....Why can't Zelenka do anything...The way he treats Zelenka is nothing short of atrocious....If i was Zelenka i would have whacked him long ago if he ever spoke to me with such distain and disregard....

He has a whole team of scientists but he always has to do everything himself :rolleyes:

Briangate78
August 16th, 2008, 06:17 AM
But in the end, I am just extremelly disgusted that the writers keep cannabalizing previous plot elemements from previous episodes.

I'm sorry my fellow Gateheads, but I hearby officially resign as a 'Gate fan. I'm handing over my DHD and walking out whichever door Torri Higginson was shown.

Previous plots? What the heck are you talking about?


So is it safe to say Woolsey is atlantis' new breakout character? I liked every single scene with him in these 5 episodes.

Yeah he was great. I am afraid to say who Woolsey is better than because of the Redding trolls. :mckay:

Earthgate Ricky
August 16th, 2008, 06:18 AM
last night I DVRed it, it look so good. Doctor Weir replicator can't feel John beacuse she is just "clone" with copied memories. John wanted Liz for original self, not copy.

jelgate
August 16th, 2008, 06:52 AM
I meant.....Why can't Zelenka do anything...The way he treats Zelenka is nothing short of atrocious....If i was Zelenka i would have whacked him long ago if he ever spoke to me with such distain and disregard....He has a whole team of scientists but he always has to do everything himself :rolleyes:What scene are you talking about?

Linda06
August 16th, 2008, 07:01 AM
What scene are you talking about?

Not just one scene in this particular ep....I'm talking about in general....He always treats Zelenka with such disrespect and it annoys me!

Canazza
August 16th, 2008, 07:13 AM
Did anyone notice what was being typed onto the screen after the power came back on looked kinda like "All Your Base are Belong to Us" - or atleast, looked like that's where it was going :)

cryptmagic
August 16th, 2008, 07:15 AM
The episode was awful. I mean it’s the same thing with most of the villains in SG universe. They are evil, and have no chance for redemption. When one of them betrayed Atlantis, Sheppard wanted to destroy the other replicators; he only backed down when they reminded him that they didn’t all betray them. If they had 8 replicators they would have taken over the city. So Elizabeth kills one of her people and then setups the destruction of her friends. Why not see their good replicators, and make an alliance with them. Personally I am getting really tired of this series. It feels tired and old. I'm guessing the wraith will be exterminated, just like the ori, guald, to name a few bad guys. I saw stargate Continuum, and it had similar issues. I find it’s either your good or evil, and have no ability to change your circumstances. At least Battlestar feels more realistic.

Falcon Horus
August 16th, 2008, 07:19 AM
I'll comment first, and then read the thread... Just watched it and it's still fresh.

I can see why Torri turned this one down. No closure, just more wide open possibilities of which we have no idea if they will ever come to a resolve. We haven't moved any further than where BAMSR left off. And I agree with Michelle for wanting to play FRAN and not Elizabeth. I prefer her as FRAN and Torri as Elizabeth, even though she did a pretty okay job with the part in this episode.

Teyla and Ronon were on the backburner again. It was all Rodney and Sheppard as it usually is. What was I expecting anyway? :(

Flying monkeys?!? :p

Oh yeah, remember SG1's Entity in season 4 - someone must have remembered that one while spinning this idea. *shrug*

The talk between Franibeth and Teyla - mmm yeah, well... In my personal opinion there was more friendship between Kate and Teyla, then there was between Elizabeth and Teyla since those two together in a scene alone was far and wide, and very much sometimes. So all of the sparkle in Teyla's eyes when talking about Kanaan is as much off-screen as Ronon knowing Kanaan was the father of Torren when Teyla told him and John she was pregnant. We never really got the buddie-buddie between Elizabeth and Teyla like it is between Rodney and John. A shame really... :o And not a good way to sell that scene.

I know the Sparkies are going totally crazy over this one, with John's woobie-face and Franibeth. It seems there was quite few Sparky moments but I have to admit I didn't see that many. I could see the bond and all, but that's why I'm probably not that big of a Sparky-shipper anyway. :p
I loved seeing the range of emotions that were triggered with Franibeth's appearance. It was clear that the loss of Elizabeth is still strong within these people. I especially loved Radek's sweet face when Franibeth is standing in front of them. He looks extremely cute there.

Woolsey getting stuck out at the other end of the city... Gotta love Lantis! :D

When is it normal to go walking through the city without back-up? Sheppard should have taken someone with him, if only it was Ronon... Very nice how the hero is set up to be attacked. That was so a set-up so that Franibeth could save his sorry little ass, which I don't mind, but I was a little annoyed at the lack of back-up nonetheless.

And Franibeth saved the city yet again by sacrificing herself so Atlantis and the expedition could be safe. Damn, that's what makes her even more of hero for me. When she steps through that gate and looks back at them.... :( And when the gate closes, there's that sense of loss. :(

I miss Torri and Elizabeth. Goddess, I do. *deep sigh*

Cautious Explorer
August 16th, 2008, 07:57 AM
They tease me with a great team moment in the puddle jumper, even mention flying monkey creatures and then.......back to the dark city, staring at computer monitors, Rodney once again assuring everyone that nothing can go wrong when using nanites and the team behaving like they barely know each other. Bleck. Give me 40 minutes of the team on the the flying monkey planet any day.

Briangate78
August 16th, 2008, 08:06 AM
I'll comment first, and then read the thread... Just watched it and it's still fresh.

I can see why Torri turned this one down. No closure, just more wide open possibilities of which we have no idea if they will ever come to a resolve. We haven't moved any further than where BAMSR left off. And I agree with Michelle for wanting to play FRAN and not Elizabeth. I prefer her as FRAN and Torri as Elizabeth, even though she did a pretty okay job with the part in this episode.



Well they could of offered her more eps, because the ending of this episode may have shut down their bodies but they are not completley dead. I was expected her to ascend at the end. That way she can choose to take human form and be the Weir we once knew. Now if Season 6 does happen, and based on the high ratings there is a good chance, Weir could return played by Torri. So I would not rule it out completely

SgaIsBad
August 16th, 2008, 08:09 AM
Well they could of offered her more eps, because the ending of this episode may have shut down their bodies but they are not completley dead. I was expected her to ascend at the end. That way she can choose to take human form and be the Weir we once knew. Now if Season 6 does happen, and based on the high ratings there is a good chance, Weir could return played by Torri. So I would not rule it out completely

Torri has made it clear that she is not returning........

Skydiver
August 16th, 2008, 08:12 AM
Folks

First- Keep your personal issues off the thread. Complaining about your rep points are off topic and the cynic i me thinks that people like to complain just so they can get pity greens from others. So stop it

Second - As i have said a dozen times before, NONE of you were in the room when Torri talked to the producers. NONE of you are her, NONE of yhou are TPTB, thus NONE of you, i repeat NONE know what truly happened. So keep y our speculations off the thread. You do nothing but make yourself look bad and you risk starting rumors that can bite your favored actors in the tushie

The topic is Ghose in the Machine - so keep your talk centered around the episode please

Browncoat1984
August 16th, 2008, 08:13 AM
Overall I enjoyed this episode. It seemed a bit slow in parts compared to previous episodes this season. I loved Morgan's portrayal of Weir in this episode, she was perfect. Her expressions and reactions were pretty much spot on. At first it was strange seeing another actress play Weir after having seen Torri play her for so long, but I hope she gets at least one more round at it.

There were some great Woolsey moments and once again Picardo did an excellent job. Some interesting special effects, with the darkened Atlantis, the Puddlejumper missing the Stargate, etc.

My biggest complaint is that the writers do what they seem to do a lot: they don't give you the sense that we're done with Weir yet, there was no sense of finalization with this episode...maybe they have plans for at least one more round with Weir?

Overall I would rate it 8/10.

bluealien
August 16th, 2008, 08:19 AM
First of all, kudos to Carl Binder. He has always been my favorite writer. And mega kudos to JF and MM. I was very nervous going into this, but they totally sold it for me. I will always miss TH, but MM was a very good substitute.

Good stuff:

-flying monkeys
-hitting the space gate
-Woolsey trapped on the balcony
-Shep's high knee lift when the lightning almost got him
-Rodney wasn't annoying.
-Is that Richard Woolsey? lol

The highlight of the good stuff was Richard Woolsey... he rocked in this episode and I think he is proving himself to be the best leader yet of Atlantis.




Great stuff:
-JF's angsty faces. He outdid himself here.
-the Weir/Teyla moment. I think Teyla lied to protect her family. And I really loved that Weir knew all about Kanaan. Shows how close they were. Too bad we never saw much of it.
-the Weir/Sheppard leadership dynamic picking up right where it left off down to the looks and the joined at the hip positioning.
-Woolsey was a good leader. He did the right things.
-Weir saving Shep's butt for a change, and the look on his face. Priceless.
-Shep isn't the only one who gets to be the hero and sacrifice himself. The ending was just heartbreaking.
-Sheppard thinking she would want to stay. He really didn't give up. Thanks again CB.

Most of the above is the not so good stuff. for me...

Shep was all over the place in this ep... firstly a slightly stunned reaction .. like, here we go again.!! .... then total disbelief that it was Elizabeth (and as much as Fran gave a good performance.. there is absolutley nothing she did in the ep to convince me she was the real Weir).

The Teyla/Weir moment was forced and totally off. So now all of a sudden Weir also knew about Kanaan.. oh please do these writers remember anything they write previously for their characters.. so if that is the case and Kanaan was causing a sparkle in Teyla's eyes over a year ago.. why would she be talking about having a crush on someone from Atlantis when she seemingly was also telling Weir all about Kanaan.. sheesh. I know the writers are tying to get us to believe this out of nowhere lover for Kanaan, but this is rediculous...

I didnt see any Shep/Weir leadership dynamic...he went from being stunned, to totally disbelieving, to wanting to shoot her, and then when she suddenly saves him from the replicator..(eventhough she had put his life and that of Atlantis in danger and caused the death of one of the scientists) he is suddenly all compassionate to her cause. Shep's reactions were all over the place here and most of the time he didnt trust or believe it was even her.. the writers should have stuck to that instead of letting Shep suddenly accept she didnt mean any harm.. it was a miracle that no one else had been killed, and he is willing to forget that she actually orchestrated the whole thing that could have distroyed Atlantis.


Well considering she led the Replicators to Atlantis, lied to everyone, got a guy killed, the least she could do is try and save them.. but she didnt even sacrifice herself because being put in space is not a death sentence as she is a Replicator... and I'm sure somehow she will get rescued to resurface as Franabeth at a later stage.. If she really wanted to make the ultimate sacrifice and make sure the Replicators would never be a threat to Atlantis again, then she would have chosen to do something where she was really dead and didnt have the chance to re-surface at a later date..


Not so good:
-a bit too much technobabble in the first half
-not enought Ronon, but you can't have everything

More of the not so good was the lack of Teyla and Ronon.. Ronon was like a stage prop here and again no one listens to him when he is the most rational one of all of them.. though thank god for Woolsey.

Rodney doesn't have to treat Zelenka like his whipping boy all the time.. what is so awful about allowing the guy to help and stop talking to him like he is an idiot..:mckay:

Falcon Horus
August 16th, 2008, 08:21 AM
I'm confused :confused: in the beginning when they hit gate, didn't they enter the gate from the other side?

I asked my sister the same thing while the jumper disappeared through the gate. She just shrugged and I'm still thinking they flew through the wrong side. :p


...Ghose in the Machine...

Goose in the Machine ... that's how I read it. :p

Briangate78
August 16th, 2008, 08:21 AM
This ep rocked!

g.o.d
August 16th, 2008, 08:27 AM
I asked my sister the same thing while the jumper disappeared through the gate. She just shrugged and I'm still thinking they flew through the wrong side. :p

me too

FalconSpirit
August 16th, 2008, 08:29 AM
I can see why Torri turned this one down. No closure, just more wide open possibilities of which we have no idea if they will ever come to a resolve.

Since this isn't the original script that was sent to Tori, I'm guessing that the original script probably could have allowed for them to regain human bodies again, with the other replicators fading into the background, and Weir open to more reoccurring appearances as a human again, similar to Carson. And if that wasn't the plan, it should have been!

One that that Atlantis keeps constantly disappointing me about is while yes, the Replicators/Asurans have proven themselves to be a big threat in the past, the Lanteans, including John and the other main characters, seem almost racially prejudiced to me in their treatment. It seems that no matter how much a single Replicator does to prove themselves (Ava, the first FRAN, everyone except Koracen in this episode), they are only met by distrust and suspicion.

In the end, every single one of the 'good replicators' meets up with a less than completely satisfactory end. I can understand for story reasons the writers might not want to have anything as powerful as an even stripped-down Replicator on the base, but this story had the right elements to turn them all into humans, so that wouldn't have been an issue.

Yes, this ending as it is is definitely more powerful, and makes people think. Those are elements of good sci-fi, but on the other hand, it isn't a very happy ending. Even if one assumes they're not actually 'dead', being Replicators and all, it still has a very sad feeling to it, whereas I like to watch sci-fi to see what humanity can be like without all the depressing real world issues...like prejudice. I had hoped, that with everything that's happened in both SG-1 and Atlantis over the years, that the main characters would be more tolerant and open minded than we've seen them to be with regards to individual replicators/Asurans. Putting up safeguards, forcefields, a kill switch, and even the rest seems appropriate, but it just seems like they never allow them to gain their trust ever, or at least until it is too late.

I think that there was a lost opportunity here as well, if the Replicators had become human, to see them try to integrate into human society while learning how to be a human. Or at least Fran/Weir trying to reintegrate with the cast now that things have changed so much.

Maybe I'm mixing this up with Star Trek, but I hope in the future, these encounters with Ava, Fran, and Weir will cause the team, John especially, to be more receptive to individual members of a 'bad guy group' being potentially good.

(Yes, I know it was Weir's decision in the end, but do you really think they would have let Weir 'suicide' if she had been human (and for some other equivalent reason)? As well as taking all those other replicators with her who obviously weren't with Koracen in the escape? To me, it just seemed like they were killing, or at least putting on ice, a whole bunch of innocents, as this is the same group the broke away from the rest of the Asurans so long ago and have been working peacefully ever since to find enlightenment on their own.)

hisg1fans
August 16th, 2008, 08:40 AM
Couldn't get past feeling like I was watching SG-1 'Entity'. The writers didn't spend much effort re-writing that script. Didn't care for this episode at all. Except the cute new security guy, he was HOT!

Woolsey standing up to Fran was great. I'm liking him more and more.

And, I am still wanting to see these flying monkeys. Although the ones from Wizard of Oz still scare me 40 years later, so maybe it is a good thing they weren't shown ;)

Really, really, REALLY didn't care for McKay in this one. Hope we don't go back to just McKay whining and Sheppard acting on his own all the time

Falcon Horus
August 16th, 2008, 08:44 AM
Couldn't get past feeling like I was watching SG-1 'Entity'.

Hey, look at that... I'm not the only one. Almost thought I was going to have to join DigiFluid & G.O.D in their hallucination of seeing things that might not be there.

Kael
August 16th, 2008, 08:54 AM
Not to be overly dramatic, but this is probably my least favorite episode. For starters, it's an episode about the Replicators, who have never been given a satisfying motivation. First it was something vague and silly along the lines of "they see humans as the favored sibling and have become homicidally bitter about it", and then the show found a way to give them a human-killing motivation that made sense when it became part of their anti-wraith directive. But I'm just not feeling the idea of the Replicator faction that wants to ascend. That just doesn't work for me. It didn't help that in "This Mortal Coil", their plan to sit and watch the team ascend made no sense when the team has never tried to ascend before, and the Replicators did nothing to prod them toward ascension anyway.

But more about Ghost in the Machine: it started off very strong. I loved the first part with the Puddle Jumper, and when the city goes haywire, but then "Weir"'s backstory monologue goes on too long and just wasn't very interesting. The picture of the Replicators sitting cross-legged around a campfire trying to meditate struck me as just goofy. The scene where they developed the subspace energy transference thing was, unfortunately, and I don't know how to say this without being too mean, the worst acting the show has ever had, and on top of that, a somewhat lame story point anyway.

Those flashbacks were clearly shot in such a way as to try to hide Torri's absence, but I totally hate it when shows do that. Every show should make this their motto: if you don't have the actor, you don't have the character. The actress who played "Weir" is good and all, but it ruins the show for me when I have to pretend this other person is Weir. Sheppard's line, "you think you're Dr. Weir, but you're not." would have been a great line and had a lot of weight to it if that weren't made so painfully obvious by the fact she looked nothing like Weir in the first place. Instead, if Weir, looking, behaving and feeling like Weir in every way, was reminded at the end of the episode that she really isn't who she thinks she is, her reaction of "...maybe I'm really not" could have been great, when it instead it fell flat.

So when you have an episode about what is, at least to me, sort of a lame Replicator plot, and throw in one of my worst pet peeves in film, an actor substitute, the result is what is likely my least favorite episode of the show.

P.S.
At one point, someone on the couch with me complained that, yet again, it's all up to Rodney. When things go wrong, everyone immediately shouts at him, saying "figure it out now!" I see some other people here felt the same thing. In episodes like this, it's not necessary to pin everything on McKay; he gets enough of that when the team is out alone on missions. When things happen to the base filled with scientists, the writers should take the opportunity to give McKay a break by at least not having everyone immediately bark at only him to solve the problem. But I won't say to let Rodney accept help from Zelenka next time, because that's what McKay would do and I thought it was kind of funny.

Fenrir Foxz
August 16th, 2008, 08:59 AM
Goose in the Machine ... that's how I read it. :p

*would prefer 'Goose in the Oven'* :p


This ep rocked!

:indeed:

hisg1fans
August 16th, 2008, 08:59 AM
Hey, look at that... I'm not the only one. Almost thought I was going to have to join DigiFluid & G.O.D in their hallucination of seeing things that might not be there.

IMO, It was the same show. Almost plot point by plot point. They even used the same special effects.

Tal-Galahad
August 16th, 2008, 09:01 AM
me too

Does it even matter from wich site you pass through the gate? If I remember correct that has never been mentioned in any episode.

I mean that has been a gate in space...it`s not like there would be any signs on it reading "front" and "back".

So I would assume that if you dial out it does not matter from wich site you enter the gate.

---------------------------------

Besides that I absolutely loved the ep.
IMO the best of the season so far and one of the best of the entire series.
Michelle Morgan was great * entertaining story + great ending.

Southern Red
August 16th, 2008, 09:09 AM
The highlight of the good stuff was Richard Woolsey... he rocked in this episode and I think he is proving himself to be the best leader yet of Atlantis.





Most of the above is the not so good stuff. for me...

Shep was all over the place in this ep... firstly a slightly stunned reaction .. like, here we go again.!! .... then total disbelief that it was Elizabeth (and as much as Fran gave a good performance.. there is absolutley nothing she did in the ep to convince me she was the real Weir).

The Teyla/Weir moment was forced and totally off. So now all of a sudden Weir also knew about Kanaan.. oh please do these writers remember anything they write previously for their characters.. so if that is the case and Kanaan was causing a sparkle in Teyla's eyes over a year ago.. why would she be talking about having a crush on someone from Atlantis when she seemingly was also telling Weir all about Kanaan.. sheesh. I know the writers are tying to get us to believe this out of nowhere lover for Kanaan, but this is rediculous...

I didnt see any Shep/Weir leadership dynamic...he went from being stunned, to totally disbelieving, to wanting to shoot her, and then when she suddenly saves him from the replicator..(eventhough she had put his life and that of Atlantis in danger and caused the death of one of the scientists) he is suddenly all compassionate to her cause. Shep's reactions were all over the place here and most of the time he didnt trust or believe it was even her.. the writers should have stuck to that instead of letting Shep suddenly accept she didnt mean any harm.. it was a miracle that no one else had been killed, and he is willing to forget that she actually orchestrated the whole thing that could have distroyed Atlantis.


Well considering she led the Replicators to Atlantis, lied to everyone, got a guy killed, the least she could do is try and save them.. but she didnt even sacrifice herself because being put in space is not a death sentence as she is a Replicator... and I'm sure somehow she will get rescued to resurface as Franabeth at a later stage.. If she really wanted to make the ultimate sacrifice and make sure the Replicators would never be a threat to Atlantis again, then she would have chosen to do something where she was really dead and didnt have the chance to re-surface at a later date..



More of the not so good was the lack of Teyla and Ronon.. Ronon was like a stage prop here and again no one listens to him when he is the most rational one of all of them.. though thank god for Woolsey.

Rodney doesn't have to treat Zelenka like his whipping boy all the time.. what is so awful about allowing the guy to help and stop talking to him like he is an idiot..:mckay:

Hmm...isn't it amazing how 2 perfectly objective people can see the exact opposite while supposedly viewing the same scenes? ;)

I'm a bit puzzled why you felt the need to point out the wrongness of my opinions, but okay. Actually what I saw was John wanting so hard to believe that it was Elizabeth that he even went so far as to suggest to Woolsey that she might stay. He doesn't seem very objective when it comes to her.

And a lot of time passed between Sunday and Elizabeth's "death". Maybe Teyla's crush was just a crush and it passed. The writers have decided that Kanaan was an important part of her life. Ronon thought so in S4 and now evidently she had gushed about him to Elizabeth. That's enough background for me to believe it. But I like Kanaan. They seem to fit together very well. And after all, they did make a baby together. LOL

I think this was the first time in a long while John seemed to have a purpose. He's been utterly lost for a long time to me. And the superb acting of MM and JF made it seem like the true leaders of Atlantis were back in action.

However, I do love Woolsey.


This ep rocked!

Leave it to Brian to be succinct.

KindlyKeller
August 16th, 2008, 09:13 AM
One that that Atlantis keeps constantly disappointing me about is while yes, the Replicators/Asurans have proven themselves to be a big threat in the past, the Lanteans, including John and the other main characters, seem almost racially prejudiced to me in their treatment. It seems that no matter how much a single Replicator does to prove themselves (Ava, the first FRAN, everyone except Koracen in this episode), they are only met by distrust and suspicion.

I think TPTB are responding to the complaints that they've been made to look like idiots by being too trusting in the past... Michael, the Genii, etc.

Really, utter suspicion is the responsible policy, even if it sometimes seems a tad unkind.

Rac80
August 16th, 2008, 09:13 AM
Couldn't get past feeling like I was watching SG-1 'Entity'. The writers didn't spend much effort re-writing that script. Didn't care for this episode at all. Except the cute new security guy, he was HOT!

Woolsey standing up to Fran was great. I'm liking him more and more.

And, I am still wanting to see these flying monkeys. Although the ones from Wizard of Oz still scare me 40 years later, so maybe it is a good thing they weren't shown ;)

Really, really, REALLY didn't care for McKay in this one. Hope we don't go back to just McKay whining and Sheppard acting on his own all the time

:S:S I totally concurr, we have had more than enough of mckay's whining!

SGFerrit
August 16th, 2008, 09:14 AM
Loved this episode. Michelle was superb, she really was. The character was so different to FRAN, at times you could close your eyes and actually imagine it was Torri. She really did do her homework.

I think the fact that she lied to Atlantis and put them in danger was supposed to show that she had changed over the past year, which is totally undertandable. However, the sacrafice at the end was supposed to show that, deep down, she was still the same Elizabeth we knew for the first three seasons.

John's face at the end... Wow, this hit him hard.

So yeah, loved it. Enjoyed it much better than the #5 episode last year, which was a massive dissapointment.

Now, heres some caps:

http://www.magix-photos.com/mediapool21/54/48/6F/30/77/16/11/DA/85/15/20/23/52/27/29/83/oma/10/4D6924F06BB211DD9B0DDC2652273AB1.jpg

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http://www.magix-photos.com/mediapool21/54/48/6F/30/77/16/11/DA/85/15/20/23/52/27/29/83/oma/10/4E4617706BB211DD8CC24B8C52273AB1.jpg

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KindlyKeller
August 16th, 2008, 09:18 AM
There wasn't heck of a lot of McKay whining in this one. In fact, I was pretty annoyed by the opening scene-

[Terrible thing happens]
[5 milliseconds later]
"Fix it, Rodney!"
"Give me a second!"
"Fit it NOW!"

Give me a call back when you can do something besides hit people, Ronon...

Stormtrooper
August 16th, 2008, 09:22 AM
The episode was awful. I mean it’s the same thing with most of the villains in SG universe. They are evil, and have no chance for redemption. When one of them betrayed Atlantis, Sheppard wanted to destroy the other replicators; he only backed down when they reminded him that they didn’t all betray them. If they had 8 replicators they would have taken over the city. So Elizabeth kills one of her people and then setups the destruction of her friends. Why not see their good replicators, and make an alliance with them. Personally I am getting really tired of this series. It feels tired and old. I'm guessing the wraith will be exterminated, just like the ori, guald, to name a few bad guys. I saw stargate Continuum, and it had similar issues. I find it’s either your good or evil, and have no ability to change your circumstances. At least Battlestar feels more realistic.

Spot on.

SGFerrit
August 16th, 2008, 09:22 AM
And the second lot of caps. There's one more to come:)

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Falcon Horus
August 16th, 2008, 09:23 AM
Does it even matter from wich site you pass through the gate? If I remember correct that has never been mentioned in any episode.

I mean that has been a gate in space...it`s not like there would be any signs on it reading "front" and "back".

So I would assume that if you dial out it does not matter from wich site you enter the gate.

But... but... don't you think it would for interesting discussion? :o

:p

Atrus
August 16th, 2008, 09:24 AM
<snip>
Alien enemies in Stargate are always monolithic and must be destroyed, except maybe for some specific individuals - because they are alien, 100% evil, mechanical or whatnot.
Human enemies, however, don't get the same treatment: it's always just some bad apple that spoils the lot, and the general population is innocent.
They're always ready to find new reasons why every replicator, including Weir, must be shut down or destroyed for the potential harm they can do, but you never see them fiddle with the concept of blowing up the Genii once and for good, even after they tried to conquer Atlantis or kill the team what, how many times now?

jenks
August 16th, 2008, 09:26 AM
If Battlestar were realistic, every character would have committed suicide by now. No human being would survive in the state of perpetual depression you see on that show.

Infinatus
August 16th, 2008, 09:30 AM
I wasn't under the impression the Asurans in this episode were portrayed as evil. They seemed more like victims of human prejudice if anything.

g.o.d
August 16th, 2008, 09:32 AM
The episode was awful. I mean it’s the same thing with most of the villains in SG universe. They are evil, and have no chance for redemption. When one of them betrayed Atlantis, Sheppard wanted to destroy the other replicators; he only backed down when they reminded him that they didn’t all betray them. If they had 8 replicators they would have taken over the city. So Elizabeth kills one of her people and then setups the destruction of her friends. Why not see their good replicators, and make an alliance with them. Personally I am getting really tired of this series. It feels tired and old. I'm guessing the wraith will be exterminated, just like the ori, guald, to name a few bad guys. I saw stargate Continuum, and it had similar issues. I find it’s either your good or evil, and have no ability to change your circumstances. At least Battlestar feels more realistic.

welcome to the Stargate. Enemies are always evil here. It's mainly because of lazy writing

KindlyKeller
August 16th, 2008, 09:34 AM
The Wraith haven't been portrayed as totally evil; they have a biological need they're fulfilling, unlike the Gou'ald and Ori, who simply lusted for power.

Michael may be evil now, but it's been clearly noted that he was first put on that path by the expedition's messing around with his identity.

The Genii have an agenda, but they're not evil. They're just doing what they, misguided as it may be, believe is best for their people.

Regarding the Asurans, the Ancients did them wrong. Really, really wrong. But they've been nothing but hostile to the expedition from day one. I really don't see the "prejudice" here, considering the Asurans set the hostilities in motion.

As for not "giving second chances" and not trusting people who seem to be rehibilitated...

How many times have they been double-crossed? The Brotherhood people, Michael, the Genii, Ronon's friends, the race who they sought refuge from in The Storm...

Why in the world would they just trust these replicators? That would be woefully irresponsible of them.

SGFerrit
August 16th, 2008, 09:34 AM
And the last lot of caps from the episode:

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Pic
August 16th, 2008, 09:37 AM
Thanks for posting the caps, SGFerrit!

Sorry if this has been said, I only scanned the 11 pages worth...



A self-correcting space-gate? Sweet! I mean, when you think about it, something has to keep space-gates from decaying orbits and entering atmo, but I'd never thought of it. They ram the thing with the jumper and it adjusts itself. Nice.

I loved McKay's comment to Woolsey "I'm as confused as you are" That's pretty chilling - McKay being confused, that is.

Fran!Weir thought John was the father of Teyla's child. *snort

Jeffala
August 16th, 2008, 09:37 AM
Based on the screen caps above, yeah, the jumper passed through the "wrong" side of the gate. They passed through the opposite side that they originally tried for. If this isn't a mistake, then they've just shown that it doesn't matter what side of the gate that you go through.

Falcon Horus
August 16th, 2008, 09:40 AM
Based on the screen caps above, yeah, the jumper passed through the "wrong" side of the gate. They passed through the opposite side that they originally tried for. If this isn't a mistake, then they've just shown that it doesn't matter what side of the gate that you go through.

See, we never had that happening before... did we? So, it was a just question to want to know whether there's a "wrong" side to a gate.

Cautious Explorer
August 16th, 2008, 09:40 AM
Well that was kinda boring for the most part....Not much Teyla or Ronon,i knew it was too good to last....Even when we did see them all they done was stand about looking concerned or worried...

So it's come back to the how can Rodney save the day this week huh...Does does realise he's got a scientific team doesn't he? And what's that guys name he keeps telling to kepp out of the way....Um,Zelenka isn't it? What,isn't he allowed to do anything except stand about and presumably get in Rodney's way all the time :rolleyes:

I LOVE WOOLSEY.....The best thing about this mediocre ep...He has got some backbone and he's one hell of a bluffer...If he was bluffing that is....Plus he didn't let Rodney walk all over him and do anything he wanted...Woolsey knew the risks and he stuck to his guns so kudos to him for standing up to Rodney :D

I admit i was on the fence in regards to Woolsey coming over as the new leader but the more i see him the more i like him....He doesn't let himself get bullied :D

Oh and that's very interesting that Fran/Elizabeth or whoever she was thought that John was the father of Teyla's baby:o

I agree Linda. Woolsey is turning out to be the highlight of most episodes. He has a wonderful, suttle humor about him and yet he can turn around and stand firm against Rodney's bluster, bluff the Replicators and make some good decisions while staying wonderfully human. I love seeing the emotions flash across his face. He's far more than comic relief.

I found the conversation between Teyla and Fran/Weir quite bizarre. On the one hand, Weir insists she saw something between Teyla and Kanaan over a year ago, even though Teyla tells Keller in Missing that her relationship with Kanaan is something new. On the other hand, Weir thinks that there's a good possibility that Teyla's child was fathered by John. Very odd.

I have to say, when I was viewing that scene, I thought Teyla got a strange look on her face when Weir mentioned Kanaan. As if this was the moment that Teyla realized it couldn't be Weir, hence the lie about where Kanaan and baby were. Of course, as I kept watching, I realized TPTB had nothing that interesting in mind.





Shep was all over the place in this ep... firstly a slightly stunned reaction .. like, here we go again.!! .... then total disbelief that it was Elizabeth (and as much as Fran gave a good performance.. there is absolutley nothing she did in the ep to convince me she was the real Weir).

Who can blame him? How many times is he going to grieve for his friend, then meet a duplicate of her, grieve again, only to meet another version. It's getting ridiculous. (And let's not forget his friend, Carson, the clone.) Maybe next time, Michael will find a way to download Elizabeth's consciousness into a cloned Teyla. :(


The Teyla/Weir moment was forced and totally off. So now all of a sudden Weir also knew about Kanaan.. oh please do these writers remember anything they write previously for their characters.. so if that is the case and Kanaan was causing a sparkle in Teyla's eyes over a year ago.. why would she be talking about having a crush on someone from Atlantis when she seemingly was also telling Weir all about Kanaan.. sheesh. I know the writers are tying to get us to believe this out of nowhere lover for Kanaan, but this is rediculous...

So now Weir and Ronon knew all about Kanaan, but for some reason she never spoke of him to Sheppard? Why not? Why keep him such a secret? Oh, that's right. He didn't exist until he was needed as a plot device.:rolleyes:

Vis Uban
August 16th, 2008, 09:44 AM
Since this isn't the original script that was sent to Tori, I'm guessing that the original script probably could have allowed for them to regain human bodies again, with the other replicators fading into the background, and Weir open to more reoccurring appearances as a human again, similar to Carson. And if that wasn't the plan, it should have been!

One that that Atlantis keeps constantly disappointing me about is while yes, the Replicators/Asurans have proven themselves to be a big threat in the past, the Lanteans, including John and the other main characters, seem almost racially prejudiced to me in their treatment. It seems that no matter how much a single Replicator does to prove themselves (Ava, the first FRAN, everyone except Koracen in this episode), they are only met by distrust and suspicion.

In the end, every single one of the 'good replicators' meets up with a less than completely satisfactory end. I can understand for story reasons the writers might not want to have anything as powerful as an even stripped-down Replicator on the base, but this story had the right elements to turn them all into humans, so that wouldn't have been an issue.

Yes, this ending as it is is definitely more powerful, and makes people think. Those are elements of good sci-fi, but on the other hand, it isn't a very happy ending. Even if one assumes they're not actually 'dead', being Replicators and all, it still has a very sad feeling to it, whereas I like to watch sci-fi to see what humanity can be like without all the depressing real world issues...like prejudice. I had hoped, that with everything that's happened in both SG-1 and Atlantis over the years, that the main characters would be more tolerant and open minded than we've seen them to be with regards to individual replicators/Asurans. Putting up safeguards, forcefields, a kill switch, and even the rest seems appropriate, but it just seems like they never allow them to gain their trust ever, or at least until it is too late.

I think that there was a lost opportunity here as well, if the Replicators had become human, to see them try to integrate into human society while learning how to be a human. Or at least Fran/Weir trying to reintegrate with the cast now that things have changed so much.

Maybe I'm mixing this up with Star Trek, but I hope in the future, these encounters with Ava, Fran, and Weir will cause the team, John especially, to be more receptive to individual members of a 'bad guy group' being potentially good.

(Yes, I know it was Weir's decision in the end, but do you really think they would have let Weir 'suicide' if she had been human (and for some other equivalent reason)? As well as taking all those other replicators with her who obviously weren't with Koracen in the escape? To me, it just seemed like they were killing, or at least putting on ice, a whole bunch of innocents, as this is the same group the broke away from the rest of the Asurans so long ago and have been working peacefully ever since to find enlightenment on their own.)

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! I had this thought for years now with the Replicators. I would even go so far as to say that they are racially prejudiced against Replicators. That might sound a little strange, but I do believe it's accurate. Obviously, the Replicators can be a huge threat to everyone, but to judge them all to be the same would be as foolish as judging all humans to be the same. If they had the same attitude about the Goual'd, then the Tok'Ra wouldn't have been discovered and SG-1 would have met its end back in the early seasons. The other Replicators committed no infraction and obeyed the Expedition's requirements to the letter, and they certainly could have killed every marine in that room when the other one escaped, but they didn't. Then they were spaced for their trouble for the crime of being "Replicators" and the possibility that they might be dangerous. Heck, Lucious caused more harm than those Replicators left behind in the lab. It's like, if your not born in the conventional sense, (i.e. clone, constructed human, or an artificial intelligence) you're somehow...subhuman, or not really alive, even though they're obviously sentient.


And seriously, when are they going to learn. I seem to remember a nice, naive Replicator that SG-1 betrayed, again because he a Replicator, and was gullible enough to believe them. Hey whatever happened there...Oh wait, he was just a little miffed for being frozen in time for hundred of years by his reckoning, and it resulted in an extragalactic invasion and our near demise! So in Atlantis town they say, "Hey, lets do it again, nothing bad could come and bite us later!"

Oka
August 16th, 2008, 09:57 AM
I thought this episode was WAY to chatty and had way too little real action. I was seriously frustrated watching it just dragged on. It wasn't exactly an original concept either I pretty much figured out what was going to happen the moment they had problems with the jumper. Also I'm getting tired of the Atlantis people acting to stupid. They need to take more precautions and be more careful. I'm also getting sick of storylines that takes place on Atlantis itself. How about they go through the gate on foot like they used to? Replicators are so cliche now too, get rid of them, I got sick of them in SG-1. The ending was cliche.

Only positive thing about this episode was Woolsey. Oh yeah, the woman who played "Weir" was pretty hot too.

Sp!der
August 16th, 2008, 10:01 AM
i love this episode i don't know why, atlantis keeps getting better and better.
woolsey was absolutely awesome in this episode. He is beginning to be a very good leader of atlantis, and I hope that he will be there for one more season (if season six indeed will come)
the ending was to sad, really i did not see that coming. And how John Shepperd said: "I don't believe you, that you are Weir". I think she was really broken after that statement.
McKay was awesome too, how he tried to do smth good from his failure.
All in All a good episode, and I hope the special effects will get more better.
sorry, for my bad english though.

Infinatus
August 16th, 2008, 10:02 AM
The Wraith haven't been portrayed as totally evil; they have a biological need they're fulfilling, unlike the Gou'ald and Ori, who simply lusted for power.

Michael may be evil now, but it's been clearly noted that he was first put on that path by the expedition's messing around with his identity.

The Genii have an agenda, but they're not evil. They're just doing what they, misguided as it may be, believe is best for their people.

Regarding the Asurans, the Ancients did them wrong. Really, really wrong. But they've been nothing but hostile to the expedition from day one. I really don't see the "prejudice" here, considering the Asurans set the hostilities in motion.

As for not "giving second chances" and not trusting people who seem to be rehibilitated...

How many times have they been double-crossed? The Brotherhood people, Michael, the Genii, Ronon's friends, the race who they sought refuge from in The Storm...

Why in the world would they just trust these replicators? That would be woefully irresponsible of them.

After Franibeth deactivated Koracen it should have been obvious she meant well.

skydragon786
August 16th, 2008, 10:11 AM
Michelle Morgan should be brought back in the first episode of Season 6 as Weir, and be allowed to lead the Atlantis Expedition once again if Torri chooses never to return (Sometimes, actors/actresses change their minds, but doubt that will happen in this case). She is a brilliant actress, and I think she would bring a totally unique feeling to the show.

And remember to bring back Ford for the final season! Someone needs to tell Mallozzi et al to stop acting like idiots and bring most of the original cast for the last season (Of course, if it is the last season, but have a feeling it will be, since are probably keen to start work on SG: Universe)

Amakusa
August 16th, 2008, 10:14 AM
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! I had this thought for years now with the Replicators. I would even go so far as to say that they are racially prejudiced against Replicators. That might sound a little strange, but I do believe it's accurate. Obviously, the Replicators can be a huge threat to everyone, but to judge them all to be the same would be as foolish as judging all humans to be the same. If they had the same attitude about the Goual'd, then the Tok'Ra wouldn't have been discovered and SG-1 would have met its end back in the early seasons. The other Replicators committed no infraction and obeyed the Expedition's requirements to the letter, and they certainly could have killed every marine in that room when the other one escaped, but they didn't. Then they were spaced for their trouble for the

I really think you missed the point of this episode.

The Replicators CANNOT be trusted. Not only did Weir betray Atlantis, Koracen betrayed them and Weir didn't even expect that. Weir forced the Replicators on the Atlantis team by her own admission, and even held their lives hostage on top of that by threatening to sink the city (Replicators even killed one of the expedition members over it-- accident or not).

Woolsey was by far the most adamant against building Replicator bodies (I'm sure he knows quite well how wrong that goes) and he was willing to allow the Replicators to work on making human bodies. He gave them a chance to prove that their intentions were honorable, and then Koracen goes on a rampage (heck, Woolsey was even considering forming an ALLIANCE with them until that happened).

It took Shepherd confronting Weir to make her realize that she was the one putting the expedition in danger. As such she was the one that felt compelled to save the city.

Every time the Atlantis expedition considered giving the Replicators a berth they do something that only takes advantage of their generosity, and they knew it. If you think the Humans are prejudiced against the Replicators, they have very good reasons to do so because the Replicators just plain don't respect the Humans enough to honor their side of agreements-- they force themselves on them.

If there was anything that was the underlying message in this story, it's "Fool me twice, shame on me."

jenks
August 16th, 2008, 10:16 AM
Michelle Morgan should be brought back in the first episode of Season 6 as Weir, and be allowed to lead the Atlantis Expedition once again if Torri chooses never to return (Sometimes, actors/actresses change their minds, but doubt that will happen in this case). She is a brilliant actress, and I think she would bring a totally unique feeling to the show.

And remember to bring back Ford for the final season! Someone needs to tell Mallozzi et al to stop acting like idiots and bring most of the original cast for the last season (Of course, if it is the last season, but have a feeling it will be, since are probably keen to start work on SG: Universe)

Weir was an absolute embarrassment of a character, the last thing we need is her back.

Unessential
August 16th, 2008, 10:17 AM
I also realized this episode was sort of a "bottle show" to save money... besides the beginning with the puddle jumper but alot of that was probably stock footage. To think that Joe M said DV last week was one of the most expensive show SGA has ever made, up there with the first episode Rising. It just goes to show me that good writing kicks ass over big special effects any day.

Wow. I actually didn't notice. But I guess it's true. Saving money on lighting and all, nothing offworld. Bottle Episodes really show the actor's abilities in shows. This one did just that.

I also loved how they sortof waved MM's hair so she'd look more like Tori. Some scenes it was actually uncanny I think.

I hope they do bring back either MM or Tori in later episodes. It's definitely open since they can always retrieve her like they did with Liam (Niam?).

Edit: Uhmn. I'm Kinda new to the forums... I was wondering what "TPTB" stood for. I assume it's something like the production team or writer's initals... or something along the lines of that...

Edit2: Someone mentioned that the episode ended the same way it started. (no replicator threat, no weir.) I kinda felt cheated out of an advance in storyline too. The ending was one of those they *may* bring them back... and they could have brought them back anyway. Was hoping for something more solid. Not to say that it was a bad episode.

Stormtrooper
August 16th, 2008, 10:18 AM
If TPTB are going to keep the replicators around, at least do something mildly creative like NOT writing them as bad guys. That's so cliche :rolleyes:

Why didn't they keep the replicators in stasis or something? It's not safe to leave them floating in space nearby an active gate. The wrong people might find them and take advantage of the situation. They have access to advanced Ancient tech and know an awful lot about Atlantis. Stupid Woolsey.

I was not impressed by Dr. Weir's replacement, but I suppose the actress did the best she could under the circumstances. She's much better as Fran.

All in all, I didn't like the episode. Too predictable. If the producers had convinced Torri to come back, I might have liked it. As it is, meh!

jelgate
August 16th, 2008, 10:22 AM
Why didn't they keep the replicators in stasis or something? It's not safe to leave them floating in space nearby an active gate. The wrong people might find them and take advantage of the situation. They have access to advanced Ancient tech and know an awful lot about Atlantis. Stupid Woolsey.A statis pod wouldn't work on the Asurans. The whole point of the statis pod is that it slows down you vitals something that can't be done with the machines. As it stands the only advanced people out their know the threat the Asurans pose and would have left them alone or destroy them.

marielabbott
August 16th, 2008, 10:23 AM
I remember at the end of Be All My Sins Remember’d I felt excited at the brilliant reveal of Dr. Weir on the bridge of a replicator ship. Maybe this arc really will go somewhere, I thought, and just perhaps it is going to a place where I will at least see one of my favorite characters, Weir, again. Unfortunately that excitement is just a memory, and we’re left with The Ghost in the Machine.

I understand now the comment on JM’s blog that if you ask a different producer, you will likely get a different answer to the question of whether or not Weir was alive or dead. They left some of that ambiguity in the episode. As for me, I believe Weir died in Lifeline, heroically sacrificing herself to save her people. And while GITM doesn’t dwell on it, she died in probably the worst way imaginable for her after her experience in The Real World—she was overtaken by nanites. I agree with the skeptical Ronon, who raised his brows at the entity’s casual acceptance at risking the lives of those in the jumper, and Sheppard, who rightly said, “You may think you’re Elizabeth Weir, but you’re not.” Weir would never have risked the lives of her friends for the sake of replicators, or the city itself, as this entity did. In an ending reminiscent of Ford, the ally-turned-enemy “remembers” enough to make the self-sacrificial choice at the end. I suppose it’s a very slim comfort that what was left of Weir—truly a ghost in a machine, the title of the episode is at least apt—was enough to overcome the replicator programming to make such a choice.

In the end, I found this episode a dissatisfying and sad ending to the character who led the Atlantis family for three years. :(

Falcon Horus
August 16th, 2008, 10:26 AM
I hope they do bring back either MM or Tori in later episodes. It's definitely open since they can always retrieve her like they did with Liam (Niam?).

If they keep Michelle as Weir, they are kinda in the position of having to admit that cutting Weir loose in the first place might just not have been the bestest of ideas. (not talking about TH but about the character, just so we're clear)


Edit: Uhmn. I'm Kinda new to the forums... I was wondering what "TPTB" stood for. I assume it's something like the production team or writer's initals... or something along the lines of that...

TPTB stands for The Powers That Be. It's the assembly name for writers, producers, ...

Iguana775
August 16th, 2008, 10:30 AM
Did I miss something? why didnt they have the ARGs out and ready to shoot the replicators if they turned on them? They were all McKay's version so I would think the ARGs would have worked on them. I doubt he would have took out that weakness.

Good ep though.

Unessential
August 16th, 2008, 10:42 AM
If they keep Michelle as Weir, they are kinda in the position of having to admit that cutting Weir loose in the first place might just not have been the bestest of ideas. (not talking about TH but about the character, just so we're clear)

... and there's something wrong with that?

Or, it could be part of some big story arc. And they always leave some safety. We never actually "see" weir die. As well, if they keep Michelle as weir she wouldn't have the same role as she did before. Also I ment her coming back as a reoccuring character.

I also didn't mean only Michelle coming back as Weir, I ment just having Fran back period. That's why I mentioned both TH and Michelle.

jelgate
August 16th, 2008, 10:46 AM
Did I miss something??* why didnt they have the ARGs out and ready to shoot the replicators if they turned on them??* They were all McKay's version so I would think the ARGs would have worked on them.?* I doubt he would have took out that weakness.Good ep though.McKay said that these Asurans aren't able to replicate which means they can't repair themselves like normal Asurans/Replicators. Hence ARGs aren't needed. Enough bullets will take them down

Stormtrooper
August 16th, 2008, 10:48 AM
A statis pod wouldn't work on the Asurans. The whole point of the statis pod is that it slows down you vitals something that can't be done with the machines. As it stands the only advanced people out their know the threat the Asurans pose and would have left them alone or destroy them.

Lock them up in a freezer then. As it is, they ARE a liability to Atlantis and Earth itself. The Wraith managed to keep one imprisoned before (Reunion). They could do so again and end up extracting advanced tech from them such as transgalactic hyperspace drive.

Briangate78
August 16th, 2008, 10:52 AM
All in all, I didn't like the episode. Too predictable. If the producers had convinced Torri to come back, I might have liked it. As it is, meh!

Predictable? Did you watch the ending? If they gated them to a unhabited planet to continue their research that would of been predicatable.

Stormtrooper
August 16th, 2008, 11:00 AM
If they gated them to a unhabited planet to continue their research that would of been predicatable too.

Agreed ;)

Falcon Horus
August 16th, 2008, 11:02 AM
... and there's something wrong with that?

In the eyes of TPTB maybe... in mine, not so much.


Or, it could be part of some big story arc. And they always leave some safety. We never actually "see" weir die. As well, if they keep Michelle as weir she wouldn't have the same role as she did before. Also I ment her coming back as a reoccuring character.

I also didn't mean only Michelle coming back as Weir, I ment just having Fran back period. That's why I mentioned both TH and Michelle.

I can go with that... :)

Unessential
August 16th, 2008, 11:04 AM
Well, Right after weir/fran killed the leader.... Those couple lines gave away the ending. then the ending would not have been predictable...

but if they didn't have that scene, the ending probably wouldn't have made as much sense (in context)

well it would have made sense, just not "believeable" in that it's something they would do out of the blue.

Briangate78
August 16th, 2008, 11:06 AM
Agreed ;)

So you are editing my quote now?

CalmStorm
August 16th, 2008, 11:25 AM
Weir was one of my favorite characters and I loved what Torri did with the character and the role. This underlying thought of course causes bias on my end on my thought about the quality of this episode, so take my critique with a grain of salt. I would have loved to see Torri reprising the role, but I can certainly understand any ambivalence she would have to playing this part as written.

Bottom line, I don't think this episode did justice to Weir.

If we are going along the thought lines that this is Weir, once again she seemed to be written out of character. After the sacrifice she made in saving the team and her attitude of placing the city first even at her own expense, the whole plot of her bringing back replicators just seems far fetched. As poorly as Weir had been handled and written in the past, the one thing she never came across as was someone who battled self-serving interest and those of Atlantis.

If we are going along the thought lines that this is not Weir, but a copy, then it wasn't such a bad episode, other than it means TPTB continuing to toy with fans looking for conclusion, and toying with the minds of the characters on whether it is or isn't Weir, if she is or isn't alive.

The ending, was pretty much a non-ending. An ending would have been outfitting the puddle jumper with replicator weapons and destroying the remains of the floating replicators in space. As it stands now, all some other technologically advanced civilization with space travel capabilities has to do is stumble across the floating goons and pick 'em up, being completely unaware of what they have just done. Now our good ole team will have a problem with yet another group of replicators with a score to settle. Go team! :cool:

I would also like to add that I think that Michelle Morgan did a phenomenal job with her portrayal of Weir. It is obvious that she captured the essence and the mannerisms of Weir very well.

Linda06
August 16th, 2008, 11:29 AM
P.S.
At one point, someone on the couch with me complained that, yet again, it's all up to Rodney. When things go wrong, everyone immediately shouts at him, saying "figure it out now!" I see some other people here felt the same thing. In episodes like this, it's not necessary to pin everything on McKay; he gets enough of that when the team is out alone on missions. When things happen to the base filled with scientists, the writers should take the opportunity to give McKay a break by at least not having everyone immediately bark at only him to solve the problem. But I won't say to let Rodney accept help from Zelenka next time, because that's what McKay would do and I thought it was kind of funny.

Um i'm confused....So on one hand you don't want him to have to do everything himself but on the other you don't want him to accept help :confused:


I agree Linda. Woolsey is turning out to be the highlight of most episodes. He has a wonderful, suttle humor about him and yet he can turn around and stand firm against Rodney's bluster, bluff the Replicators and make some good decisions while staying wonderfully human. I love seeing the emotions flash across his face. He's far more than comic relief.

Yep he is so much more than comic relief.....I admit i was on the fence with him when i first heard he was taking over but i don't think it could have went any better.....And RP is such a wonderful actor...Every ep i see him in makes me like him more and more!


I found the conversation between Teyla and Fran/Weir quite bizarre. On the one hand, Weir insists she saw something between Teyla and Kanaan over a year ago, even though Teyla tells Keller in Missing that her relationship with Kanaan is something new. On the other hand, Weir thinks that there's a good possibility that Teyla's child was fathered by John. Very odd.

Yeah i was strange to say the least...Why would she come out and ask if the father of her child is John and then a moment later say she saw the spark in Teyla's eyes when she spoke of Kanaan....That was weird :S


I have to say, when I was viewing that scene, I thought Teyla got a strange look on her face when Weir mentioned Kanaan. As if this was the moment that Teyla realized it couldn't be Weir, hence the lie about where Kanaan and baby were. Of course, as I kept watching, I realized TPTB had nothing that interesting in mind.

Well the Kanaan relationship was supposed to be relatively new in missing like you say so why would Fran/Weir say that about Teyla/Kanaan if they aren't even together...It never looked like Teyla and Weir were never buddy buddy so why would Teyla talk about her personal life with Weir :confused:

She doesn't really talk about her personal life with anyone except Ronon apparently...The look on Teyla's face makes me think she never really believed it was Elizabeth...

This whole scene was rather confusing :confused:

KindlyKeller
August 16th, 2008, 11:34 AM
Weir was one of my favorite characters and I loved what Torri did with the character and the role. This underlying thought of course causes bias on my end on my thought about the quality of this episode, so take my critique with a grain of salt. I would have loved to see Torri reprising the role, but I can certainly understand any ambivalence she would have to playing this part as written.

Bottom line, I don't think this episode did justice to Weir.

If we are going along the thought lines that this is Weir, once again she seemed to be written out of character. After the sacrifice she made in saving the team and her attitude of placing the city first even at her own expense, the whole plot of her bringing back replicators just seems far fetched. As poorly as Weir had been handled and written in the past, the one thing she never came across as was someone who battled self-serving interest and those of Atlantis.

If we are going along the thought lines that this is not Weir, but a copy, then it wasn't such a bad episode, other than it means TPTB continuing to toy with fans looking for conclusion, and toying with the minds of the characters on whether it is or isn't Weir, if she is or isn't alive.

The ending, was pretty much a non-ending. An ending would have been outfitting the puddle jumper with replicator weapons and destroying the remains of the floating replicators in space. As it stands now, all some other technologically advanced civilization with space travel capabilities has to do is stumble across the floating goons and pick 'em up, being completely unaware of what they have just done. Now our good ole team will have a problem with yet another group of replicators with a score to settle. Go team! :cool:

I would also like to add that I think that Michelle Morgan did a phenomenal job with her portrayal of Weir. It is obvious that she captured the essence and the mannerisms of Weir very well.

I think you're right that she didn't behave exactly how the Weir everyone knows would have, but I'd contend that losing one's corporeal form could have, and realistically SHOULD have, changed her some. One is always evolving based on their life experiences, and existing in subspace is a pretty extreme experience.

pjt
August 16th, 2008, 11:40 AM
Great episode, the best in this season so far, even better than S&R. From the Oz references, through the gift for the geeks (All your base are belong to us), ending with the twist that succeeded to fool me, and the last time it happened it was The Return, part 2.
Me happy camper. :)

Amalthea
August 16th, 2008, 11:42 AM
That was a stellar episode! It's not often you get explosions and such a plot in one episode. I am thoroughly impressed.

Of course, I have to start with Weir's sacrifice. We knew she had it in her to do such a thing since Before I Sleep, but to see her do that was incredibly powerful. Michele Morgan did a fantastic job. I am so pleased with how they did the actress switch. In a way, having Weir in a different body made it even better since human impulse would be to believe a familiar face, which we saw last season. In any case, they definitely made the best of an unfortunate off-screen situation.

They all looked so heartbroken in the end. It was so touching. At first, I couldn't understand why the other replicators were afraid- I didn't have a clue that the switch was in and they were all going to step to their "deaths." I'm amazed by that kind of resolution.

As for the rest of the episode, I enjoyed it just as much. I sure would like to know why Kana'an has the baby off world! Teyla looked upset by that as well. Unless she was lying really well, which a mother could do for her kid. That whole scene was interesting, too. There was a glimmer of jealousy in Weir's eye when she thought John was the father, I think, which accounted for the extra happiness that it wasn't him, I think.

I think we learned in that episode that Woolsey is definitely a capable leader. I don't think anyone will want to play poker with him after that! He stood his ground and I liked it a lot.

And then there's Ronon. If I ever get a guard dog, his name will be Ronon. That guy just doesn't trust anything not human! And with good reason, of course. I loved how he was standing tall while McKay slept.

Fantastic episode! I loved every minute!