PDA

View Full Version : 'Broken Ties' (503) General Discussion



Pages : [1] 2

GateWorld
July 9th, 2008, 01:09 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s5/503.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/503.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON FIVE</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s5/503.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">BROKEN TIES</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 503</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
Ronon once again comes face-to-face with Tyre, one of his people who became a Wraith worshiper -- but who now claims he has broken free of their influence.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s5/503.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Jeffala
July 25th, 2008, 08:02 PM
I just love how Woolsey's idea of "more comfortable" is a suit and tie. That and how he can't open the doors to the conference room.

Sweetsong
July 25th, 2008, 08:02 PM
I am so glad this episode finally addressed Teyla's return to active duty. Hallelujah! The fact that Kannan sort of helped her make her decision to go back was pretty sweet.

I liked John's strictness with Teyla, he in essence said, "Make a freaking decision" hehe. John is a military man he's not there to coddle anyone, not that I don't understand Teyla's plight, I do sympathise with it

Woosley is actually a delight to watch now, when he got trapped in the conference room after the others left was hillarious. As well as the scene when Teyla dumped the baby on him. And I just sort of liked the scene when John was going to rescue Ronon at the first location, he looked up at Woosley and said "well bring him back," and woosley said something to the exent of, "see that you do!" It seems so very right.

To tell you the truth I was more concerned about the character development than what was going on than what was happening with Ronon and Tyre, overall a great episode.

Final note, Ronon's new locks wig is atrocious. they should have just written in his shorter'do.

FN-P90
July 25th, 2008, 08:04 PM
Great episode :) I liked what they did with Woolsey in it :D Made him more.....Identifyable :)

miniglik
July 25th, 2008, 08:07 PM
So weird. The A plot was kind of subpar, but the rest was pretty good. I'm a little disappointed in the A plot, but I enjoyed all of Woosley's interactions.
And the Teyla subplot wasn't bad either.

operagrrl
July 25th, 2008, 08:10 PM
I liked this ep, mostly for the Woolsey moments and for Teyla finally coming back to the team!

But, umm... can someone explain to me how they got around the fact that the whole reason Ronon was a runner was because the Wraith can't feed on him? They clearly showed life being sucked out of him.

_Famrir_
July 25th, 2008, 08:10 PM
i thought this episode was pretty well made, the only thing that bugs me is that another good enemy went down the drain...

FN-P90
July 25th, 2008, 08:11 PM
i thought this episode was pretty well made, the only thing that bugs me is that another good enemy went down the drain...

Well atleast he went out in a pretty cool and diginfied way. Better then Ford IMO

naamiaiset
July 25th, 2008, 08:12 PM
But, umm... can someone explain to me how they got around the fact that the whole reason Ronon was a runner was because the Wraith can't feed on him? They clearly showed life being sucked out of him.
ronon isn't immune to being fed on. in "runner", the wraith sensed ronon's strength and he was made into a runner instead.

this episode has it weak moments (the teyla "soap opera" in some parts), but overall, I love it. jason/ronon and mark/tyre have a great dynamic to me, and even woolsey was enjoyable, but the ending is a waste of a good villain.

The6thRace
July 25th, 2008, 08:13 PM
But, umm... can someone explain to me how they got around the fact that the whole reason Ronon was a runner was because the Wraith can't feed on him? They clearly showed life being sucked out of him.

I don't think it was ever stated that they can't feed on Ronon or runners. I liked the episode, got to see a bit of a different side of Ronon. I thought he was crying for a minute there when he was being tortured but I didn't see any tears.

Seraph_Six
July 25th, 2008, 08:13 PM
Next time I need to open a door, I'm going to stand there flailing my arms wildly.

miniglik
July 25th, 2008, 08:13 PM
Oh, and that was the Worst. Wraith. Ever.

What was with the voice? He sounded like a stock broker.

Pudding
July 25th, 2008, 08:13 PM
But, umm... can someone explain to me how they got around the fact that the whole reason Ronon was a runner was because the Wraith can't feed on him? They clearly showed life being sucked out of him.

It's called "I've got a great story idea, so let's throw continuum out the window!" . Or they have really bad plot-editors that couldn't catch that.

jenks
July 25th, 2008, 08:15 PM
I liked this ep, mostly for the Woolsey moments and for Teyla finally coming back to the team!

But, umm... can someone explain to me how they got around the fact that the whole reason Ronon was a runner was because the Wraith can't feed on him? They clearly showed life being sucked out of him.

He's not immune, never has been.

operagrrl
July 25th, 2008, 08:15 PM
I could be misremembering (and I must be because that's just too much of a continuity error), but I thought I remembered a scene in season two (in a flashback) that showed a wraith being unable to feed on Ronon.

Vala_M
July 25th, 2008, 08:16 PM
What a cool episode!

Very tense! I was nervous about what was going to happen for about 3/4 of the episode! It's weird how this season's 3rd episode was about a similar topic to last season's 3rd episode (Reunion).

Woolsey is actually very nice, I'm starting to like him a lot. I actually hope he stays around at this point! I can't believe I'm actually saying this!

Teyla and the baby and Kanaan, that is something I thought we'd never see, I thought that Kanaan would stay a hybrid or end up dead! It's nice that they're finally saving some people on the show.

I liked that the Satedans living on other planets was touched on again, I always felt that was pretty pointless to show except for Ronon's relief that more of his people survived.

I never thought that Ronon would break down for that reverse feeding stuff, but it turns out that there's more to it than just giving in, it's more of a drug addiction to the Wraith enzyme. How is this different than what happened with Ford? He didn't gain anymore strength apparently and did think normally except he was essentially brainwashed (seems like they're coping the whole Teal'c-Apophis/Ba'al brainwashing thing here with Ronon) and I wished that they would have explained some more how that works.

I was afraid that Tyre had betrayed the Atlantis team but luckily, he didn't. I liked the chopping of the Wraith's hand off part. That was pretty cool. Can Wraith reattach/regrow parts of their bodies? How would he have suvived if he wasn't blown up with the base? It seems he thought that he could. I wouldn't have appreciated the coolness of Tyre's sword if I didn't see the blueprints and details of it on Joe Mallozzi's blog. It's amazing how much detail is put into little and big things on the show. I wouldn't have paid attention to his necklace/pendant if it wasn't for the blog.

The sword fight was cool as well, I was thinking that Tyre would end up dying after that, I'm surprised that Wraith believed the team when they said that they wouldn't blow up the base and such. The last minute "it's not too late" temptation thing was expected of course.

I was surprised given the time constraints that the episodes are under these days thanks to commercials how much time they spent on Teyla's decision to stay on the team.

Were we supposed to recognize the Wraith that captured Ronon? Because I didn't and I know just about everything about the shows.

I had a feeling that "something more comfortable" for Woolsey would be a suit and tie. A Very charming and nice ending. I've never seen a Stargate episode end that way before, classical music and all.

Vala,

FN-P90
July 25th, 2008, 08:17 PM
Oh, and that was the Worst. Wraith. Ever.

What was with the voice? He sounded like a stock broker.

Well they do both suck the life out of you :P

miniglik
July 25th, 2008, 08:17 PM
I could be misremembering (and I must be because that's just too much of a continuity era), but I though I remembered a scene in season two (in a flashback) that showed a wraith being unable to feed on Ronon.

You could interpret it that way, but what happened was the Wraith put his hand up to feed, and then stopped. It's definitely not spelled out he COULDN'T.

I assumed he didn't because he "sensed Ronon's strength."

A Wraith Named Bob
July 25th, 2008, 08:17 PM
I thought this episode was great. Here's some of the things I liked:


It had a nice balance of slow and intense/action scenes
Woolsey is more comfortable in a suit
Woolsey loved his dog
The new male wraith looked and sounded cool and different
The webbing that Ronon was tied to was cool looking
Jason (Ronon) did a really good acting job
Tyre (sp?) did a good acting job, as he did on his previous appearance (much better than Iron Chef America :))
They showed Kanan
The discussion between Teyla and Woolsey
The briefing room doors didnt open for Woolsey
Woolsey with the baby
They came to a decision about Teyla's character and staying on the team
Sheppard: "I'm not taking a bath with you"
Ronon was scared by the surprise party
And it looked like McKay killed a group of three "no-face" Wraith when they attacked the facility


I thought Woolsey was really good and funny on this episode. I only wish that the music he was listening to at the end was the opera he sang on Star Trek Voyager. Now that would have been cool.

Overall: Great episode -> 9/10

The6thRace
July 25th, 2008, 08:18 PM
Why would he be immune to being fed upon? His race was culled by the wraith, they don't attack worlds to conquer them, they attack them for food. Thats why the wraith all have stunners instead of staff weapons.

Cautious Explorer
July 25th, 2008, 08:18 PM
I loved Woolsey. He's fast on his way to becoming one of my favorite characters. In fact, he was one of the few things I liked about this episode. RP is doing a terrific job.

The story felt slow and not at all suspenseful. I like Ronon, I wanted to care what was happening to him, but something just wasn't right. For one thing, the wraith wasn't at all frightening. What has happened to the wraith makeup? Shiny face, greasy hair, the voice sounded odd and something about him using the word "magnificent" threw me off.

I've been a fan of Teyla since season one, I struggled to like her in season four, and I was hoping we were back to the good old Teyla when I saw S&R and The Seed. Tonight's Teyla was season four Teyla and she annoyed me throughout. I don't want to see homelife with Teyla, baby and the ex-zombie. I wish they would just get rid of Kanaan already.

Keller needs to stop with the quavery voice and all of the pauses between *pause* every *pause* phrase *pause* she utters. I just want to slap her head to jog her along. Maybe she needs an inhaler?

On the bright side, John looked exceptionally good tonight. :)

jenks
July 25th, 2008, 08:18 PM
I could be misremembering (and I must be because that's just too much of a continuity error), but I thought I remembered a scene in season two (in a flashback) that showed a wraith being unable to feed on Ronon.

There was an episode where we see a flashback of a Wraith begin to feed but then stop, the Wraith had recognised Ronon's strength and decided to make him a runner. He didn't stop because he was unable to feed.

A Wraith Named Bob
July 25th, 2008, 08:18 PM
I could be misremembering (and I must be because that's just too much of a continuity error), but I thought I remembered a scene in season two (in a flashback) that showed a wraith being unable to feed on Ronon.

Yeah that kind of bothered me too.

Reiko
July 25th, 2008, 08:19 PM
» This episode hasn't aired yet where I live, so I don't know what I'm doing here. But what the heck. :weir40:


Well atleast he went out in a pretty cool and diginfied way. Better then Ford IMO

» Better than Ford, who didn't go out.


Or they have really bad plot-editors that couldn't catch that.

» Or they don't have any. :o

Zelda fan
July 25th, 2008, 08:20 PM
Robert of defiantly doing better then people expected

he's so funny

Shan Bruce Lee
July 25th, 2008, 08:21 PM
I liked this ep, mostly for the Woolsey moments and for Teyla finally coming back to the team!

But, umm... can someone explain to me how they got around the fact that the whole reason Ronon was a runner was because the Wraith can't feed on him? They clearly showed life being sucked out of him.


It's called "I've got a great story idea, so let's throw continuum out the window!" . Or they have really bad plot-editors that couldn't catch that.

They've never said that the Wraith can't feed on him, just that they stopped and made him a runner instead.

operagrrl
July 25th, 2008, 08:23 PM
There was an episode where we see a flashback of a Wraith begin to feed but then stop, the Wraith had recognised Ronon's strength and decided to make him a runner. He didn't stop because he was unable to feed.

Ok, thanks to those who mentioned this. I had definitely seen it as the Wraith being unable to feed on him (and just Ronon, not all Satedans), but I did watch all of season 2 in one mad rush! :)

RodneyIsGodney
July 25th, 2008, 08:23 PM
OMG!!! Rodney in his tub, in a bubble bath! SQUEE!!!
HE took out THREE WRAITH with his P-90! WOOHOO! GO RODNEY!!!



I just love how Woolsey's idea of "more comfortable" is a suit and tie. That and how he can't open the doors to the conference room.
Those scenes cracked me up!!! LMAO!!! Loved when he reached to the side as if there was a sensor there!


Oh, and that was the Worst. Wraith. Ever.

What was with the voice? He sounded like a stock broker.

That was one BUTT UGLY WRAITH!


It's called "I've got a great story idea, so let's throw continuum out the window!" . Or they have really bad plot-editors that couldn't catch that.
I think you meant "Continuity" not the new Stargate movie.:P

miniglik
July 25th, 2008, 08:24 PM
I loved Woolsey. He's fast on his way to becoming one of my favorite characters. In fact, he was one of the few things I liked about this episode. RP is doing a terrific job.

The story felt slow and not at all suspenseful. I like Ronon, I wanted to care what was happening to him, but something just wasn't right. For one thing, the wraith wasn't at all frightening. What has happened to the wraith makeup? Shiny face, greasy hair, the voice sounded odd and something about him using the word "magnificent" threw me off.

I've been a fan of Teyla since season one, I struggled to like her in season four, and I was hoping we were back to the good old Teyla when I saw S&R and The Seed. Tonight's Teyla was season four Teyla and she annoyed me throughout. I don't want to see homelife with Teyla, baby and the ex-zombie. I wish they would just get rid of Kanaan already.

Keller needs to stop with the quavery voice and all of the pauses between *pause* every *pause* phrase *pause* she utters. I just want to slap her head to jog her along. Maybe she needs an inhaler?

On the bright side, John looked exceptionally good tonight. :)

I agree with this. Except I didn't even notice Keller. But that Wraith was such a hammy unimposing baddie. He ruined all of the Ronon + Wraith scenes for me.

Joe's hair was really excellent tonight. I will cling to that and try to ignore Jason's horrible, horrible wig (which was exceptionally obvious tonight). ;)

A Wraith Named Bob
July 25th, 2008, 08:24 PM
I also thought it was funny when they showed Rodney in the bathtub at the end.

Reiko
July 25th, 2008, 08:25 PM
Keller needs to stop with the quavery voice and all of the pauses between *pause* every *pause* phrase *pause* she utters. I just want to slap her head to jog her along. Maybe she needs an inhaler?

» Isn't she always like that? Or was it worse in this episode?

starfox
July 25th, 2008, 08:27 PM
Dude, Jason's wig. It looks SOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad.

On a more serious note, I really like the direction the characterization's taken so far this season. Woolsey is a sympathetic character - from his divorce and Yorkie to creating quarters where he's more in his element to getting trapped in the conference room - McKay has calmed down a little and appears to be fully integrated with the rest of the team in a way we haven't always seen, and Teyla's motherhood is actually being addressed. Okay, so she's got the super-humanly supportive boyfriend, but there are certainly worse ways to handle it (Actually, can Kanaan be my boyfriend? I want someone who'll stay at home with the kid while I go off and save the galaxy).

I also love the images in this episode. Tyre strung out in his lair reads like a rat curled up in his hole. And while the Wraith draining/giving certainly is a representation of forced drug dependency, it also captured the deeper feeling of violation that such dependency creates.
I also felt like there was a weirdly sexual element to the draining/giving process, but that may just be me.

One thing on which I was unclear: who cut off the Wraith's hand, Ronon or Tyre? When we saw the pledge of Ronon's loyalty, I thought he was faking it like a bad porn star, but if he was faking it, then the later scene with Sheppard in the isolation chamber doesn't make sense, nor does the extended fight with Tyre. However, I don't recall Tyre having a sword on him, so Ronon's the more logical choice. Momentary loyalty glitch brought on by having both of his commanders in conflict with each other, perhaps?
ETA: Clarified.

The extent to which Ronon was brainwashed could have been made clearer, and it would have been interesting to watch him seriously forced to hurt a member of the Atlantis team, if only for the serious emotional consequences it would have later, and also because that seems like the sort of thing you expect to see when a villain brainwashes a hero. The stakes didn't feel high enough here for me, at least not until Ronon went into withdrawal. I give Jason the "Best Portrayal of a Drug Withdrawal" award for this show.

All in all, it was an ok episode, though. I have high hopes for this season. And, in conclusion, Dude. Jason's wig.

operagrrl
July 25th, 2008, 08:29 PM
I agree with this. Except I didn't even notice Keller. But that Wraith was such a hammy unimposing baddie. He ruined all of the Ronon + Wraith scenes for me.

Joe's hair was really excellent tonight. I will cling to that and try to ignore Jason's horrible, horrible wig (which was exceptionally obvious tonight). ;)

I always notice Keller and her inability to project any kind of authority.

But this wraith was awful! His high, reedy voice just... was not scary. Like, at all. I'm so thrilled he was a one off.

Joe's hair was in fine form! I actually thought the dreds looked better tonight than they did in.... 5.01 or .02... I can't remember. That's not really saying much though. In any case it looks AWFUL and Jason is so cute in short hair that I wish they would work it into cannon that the dreds come off.

KindlyKeller
July 25th, 2008, 08:29 PM
There were a lot of good things about the episode.

I like the B-plot with Teyla, and I'm glad that they addressed her mother vs. duty quandry. I also liked all of the scenes with Woolsey, though I think he's getting along with the team way too well for it only being his second episode. They've really missed an opportunity to mine something interesting conflict.

I also applaud them for doing something to try to make Ronon interesting. This was a good idea, though it didn't come off as strongly for me as it was probably supposed to. I'd have liked to see more of the actual "breaking" of him (as crude as that sounds).

Overall, not a great episode, but it had its moments.

Shan Bruce Lee
July 25th, 2008, 08:30 PM
This one was a great episode from start to finish. The only thing I would've liked to see different is a little more fighting from Dacascos.

I was a little dissapointed that they killed his character off too but they did it in an awesome way.

Woolsey had a lot of funny scenes - especially when he got stuck in the conference room :)

The preview for next week's episode looks even better. I think season 5 is off to a great start and could easily be the best season yet.

Cautious Explorer
July 25th, 2008, 08:32 PM
» Isn't she always like that? Or was it worse in this episode?

It was about the same as usual I think. Part of the problem was my rewatching The Seed just before this one aired, so I was more prone to notice it. Also, I think at one point John was trying to get some info that might help in finding Ronon, and there she went with the pause, pause, pause. I guess she was really worried about the time element. :cool:

RodneyIsGodney
July 25th, 2008, 08:34 PM
I also thought it was funny when they showed Rodney in the bathtub at the end.

Funny? I thought he looked cute all covered in bubbles!'*squee*

ladyjanus
July 25th, 2008, 08:35 PM
Dude, Jason's wig. It looks SOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad.

Remember some of the butt ugly muskrat pelts they put on RL in the beginning? Wigs can be fixed and made to look beter...

Jeffala
July 25th, 2008, 08:35 PM
But, umm... can someone explain to me how they got around the fact that the whole reason Ronon was a runner was because the Wraith can't feed on him? They clearly showed life being sucked out of him.

It was never stated or implied that he was immune to feeding by the Wraith.


Next time I need to open a door, I'm going to stand there flailing my arms wildly.

Hell, I do that already.


I thought this episode was great. Here's some of the things I liked:


Woolsey is more comfortable in a suit



Though it did look ill-fitting.


I thought Woolsey was really good and funny on this episode. I only wish that the music he was listening to at the end was the opera he sang on Star Trek Voyager. Now that would have been cool.

O, Soave Fanciulla (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Image:O%2C_Soave_Fanciulla%2C_duet_from_act_1_of_the_opera_La_Bohème_by_Giacomo _Puccini.ogg)? The one he sang with The Diva?


But that Wraith was such a hammy unimposing baddie. He ruined all of the Ronon + Wraith scenes for me.

Nerd Wraith. Not everybody can be one of the cool kids. :p

Shan Bruce Lee
July 25th, 2008, 08:35 PM
One thing on which I was unclear: who cut off the Wraith's hand, Ronon or Tyre? When we saw the pledge of Ronon's loyalty, I thought he was faking it like a bad porn star, but if he was faking it, then the later scene with Sheppard in the isolation chamber doesn't make sense, nor does the extended fight with Tyre. However, I don't recall Tyre having a sword on him, so Ronon's the more logical choice. Momentary loyalty glitch brought on by having both of his commanders in conflict with each other, perhaps?


It was Tyre and he did have a sword. It's the one that Shep gave to Ronon at the end of the sp.

Stormtrooper
July 25th, 2008, 08:39 PM
:'( Variety Hour Atlantis. No wonder Woosley fits so well. Be careful Rodney!

Briangate78
July 25th, 2008, 08:39 PM
What a great episode. Jason Momoa really took this one by the horns. I just loved how Sheppard and co show how much they really care for Ronon. This episode showed how strong these friends have become. I loved the twist at the end when Tyre becomes like a double agent and frees Sheppard's team. The ending was truly remarkable when Ronon is recovering it really drawed out some powerful emotions. I also loved Woolsey in this episode. He really has shown a heart but still wants to play by the rules.

diane23
July 25th, 2008, 08:40 PM
Funny? I thought he looked cute all covered in bubbles!'*squee*

He was soo cute! Bubbles everywhere. Squee! :)
And Ronon whumping...that was nice.

That was a good episode. And I really liked that the addressed what Teyla is going to do. I've been pretty mad about Woolsey being in charge, but I must admit, he's growing on me. This episode gave me hope. Woolsey was cracking me up! He might not be too bad after all..
Oh, and on a side note. Sheppard has some awesome moves! Pistol in each hand.. awesome.

The6thRace
July 25th, 2008, 08:42 PM
I actually hope the whole baby thing just fades into the background now. Ahhh, sweet sweet background.

A Wraith Named Bob
July 25th, 2008, 08:52 PM
Sheppard has some awesome moves! Pistol in each hand.. awesome.

I also think it was cool, but didn't he shoot off a few more bullets than those pistols can hold? Sorry, pet peeve of mine.

Now Rodney owning a few Wraith with a P90 down the hallway...That was cool...

diane23
July 25th, 2008, 08:59 PM
I also think it was cool, but didn't he shoot off a few more bullets than those pistols can hold? Sorry, pet peeve of mine.

Now Rodney owning a few Wraith with a P90 down the hallway...That was cool...

Rodney had some moves too! Not just a pet peeve of yours, btw. I was counting the shots. :)

Ruffles
July 25th, 2008, 08:59 PM
I really enjoyed this ep. I like the layers here - Ronon's story, Teyla's story, background on the Gift of Life, Woolsey's integration into Atlantis. A lot going on in this one.

Good Stuff:
* Jason Momoa/Ronon - a tour de force episode for him - defiant, angry, betrayed, hurt, brainwashed, sick, spiteful, broken. Rarely does any show make me tear up but he did twice in the same ep: when he understands that Tyre is selling him for a "reward" and when he breaks down after Sheppard gives him the sword at the end. Magnificent.

* Woolsey - oh my, I don't think I could love him more. He was so great - getting trapped in the conference room after prompting Sheppard to ask permission by clearing his throat, his fabulously supportive conversation with Teyla (and backstory! ex-wife, Yorkie), his argument with Sheppard then trying to deal with Teyla's son (and not knowing how to find the cafeteria), his quiet encouragement for them to find Ronon as the team leaves, his idea of relaxing being a suit and tie.

* Teyla facing normal people issues - to be a working mom or not. I LOVE that TPTB haven't just swept it under the rug, didn't kill off the kid (which I was completely convinced would happen) or Kanaan. While I don't expect to see them every ep, I adore the fact that she has family to deal with when she gets home - like everyone else.

* Mark/Tyre - he was awesome too. I knew he was a goner when Sheppard showed him how to operate the detonator, but he redeemed himself nicely.

* Rodney - worried for Ronon, woobie-faced when Teyla suggested she might not return, up all night trying to come up with an answer, snarky without being annoying, upset watching Ronon come down then sitting with him while he was unconscious.

* Sheppard - reluctantly asking for permission, arguing with Woolsey, so determined to save Ronon, horrified while watching Ronon detox, understanding what Ronon's going through, allowing Tyre to sacrifice himself (he so knew Tyre wasn't leaving that lab).

* the ending montage - Woolsey's quarters, Teyla and Kanaan with their son (and upgraded digs!), Rodney's epiphany in the bathtub (hee!), Sheppard giving the sword to Ronon and his reaction - all to the fabulous music. No words. Fantastic.

While I never believed Ronon's life was in danger, I don't think I was meant to. This was about doing what you swore you'd never do. Tyre selling out a friend for a fix. Ronon turning in a Wraith worshipper which no one (including me) ever thought would happen. Watching a friend suffer so he can get better. Choosing to risk your life in order to save others even to the possible detriment of your family (I would have loved to have heard Teyla's thoughts while she was trapped in that Wraith cell). This is an ep that will have to soak in a bit, that is more than just action.

Shan Bruce Lee
July 25th, 2008, 09:07 PM
I really enjoyed this ep. I like the layers here - Ronon's story, Teyla's story, background on the Gift of Life, Woolsey's integration into Atlantis. A lot going on in this one.

I loved all that stuff. Especially all the little stuff tied into Ronon's backstory, like the first Satedan (don't know his name) that Teyla and Ronon ran into in 'Trinity'

Landers
July 25th, 2008, 09:13 PM
There was an SG1 episode long ago where Teal'c was captured by the Gouald and had to be rescued/unbrainwashed. This episode was just another retread, and not as good as its SG1 original either.

Ronon's wig is comical, in a bad way.

Keller still can't say her lines with any conviction.

Liked Woolsey, and the Teyla/Woolsey, and Teyla/Kanaan scenes.

Rest was forgetable.

the fifth man
July 25th, 2008, 09:14 PM
Very strong episode IMO. Woolsey just continues to get better and better. He may have been a very good move on the part of TPTB. Teyla's story was good, as was Ronon's. In fact, I'm watching it again right now.

Ruined_puzzle
July 25th, 2008, 09:15 PM
* Teyla facing normal people issues - to be a working mom or not. I LOVE that TPTB haven't just swept it under the rug, didn't kill off the kid (which I was completely convinced would happen) or Kanaan. While I don't expect to see them every ep, I adore the fact that she has family to deal with when she gets home - like everyone else.


YAY Teyla finally got her happy family. I kind of love this. I was afraid they were going to kill Kanaan, the baby or both. Or probably never mention them again.

Rac80
July 25th, 2008, 09:16 PM
Remember some of the butt ugly muskrat pelts they put on RL in the beginning? Wigs can be fixed and made to look beter...

I hope they find a way to fix ronon's or they let him go with the shorter hair. :S


I really enjoyed this ep. I like the layers here - Ronon's story, Teyla's story, background on the Gift of Life, Woolsey's integration into Atlantis. A lot going on in this one.

Good Stuff:
* Jason Momoa/Ronon - a tour de force episode for him - defiant, angry, betrayed, hurt, brainwashed, sick, spiteful, broken. Rarely does any show make me tear up but he did twice in the same ep: when he understands that Tyre is selling him for a "reward" and when he breaks down after Sheppard gives him the sword at the end. Magnificent.

* Woolsey - oh my, I don't think I could love him more. He was so great - getting trapped in the conference room after prompting Sheppard to ask permission by clearing his throat, his fabulously supportive conversation with Teyla (and backstory! ex-wife, Yorkie), his argument with Sheppard then trying to deal with Teyla's son (and not knowing how to find the cafeteria), his quiet encouragement for them to find Ronon as the team leaves, his idea of relaxing being a suit and tie.

* Teyla facing normal people issues - to be a working mom or not. I LOVE that TPTB haven't just swept it under the rug, didn't kill off the kid (which I was completely convinced would happen) or Kanaan. While I don't expect to see them every ep, I adore the fact that she has family to deal with when she gets home - like everyone else.

* Mark/Tyre - he was awesome too. I knew he was a goner when Sheppard showed him how to operate the detonator, but he redeemed himself nicely.

* Rodney - worried for Ronon, woobie-faced when Teyla suggested she might not return, up all night trying to come up with an answer, snarky without being annoying, upset watching Ronon come down then sitting with him while he was unconscious.

* Sheppard - reluctantly asking for permission, arguing with Woolsey, so determined to save Ronon, horrified while watching Ronon detox, understanding what Ronon's going through, allowing Tyre to sacrifice himself (he so knew Tyre wasn't leaving that lab).

* the ending montage - Woolsey's quarters, Teyla and Kanaan with their son (and upgraded digs!), Rodney's epiphany in the bathtub (hee!), Sheppard giving the sword to Ronon and his reaction - all to the fabulous music. No words. Fantastic.

While I never believed Ronon's life was in danger, I don't think I was meant to. This was about doing what you swore you'd never do. Tyre selling out a friend for a fix. Ronon turning in a Wraith worshipper which no one (including me) ever thought would happen. Watching a friend suffer so he can get better. Choosing to risk your life in order to save others even to the possible detriment of your family (I would have loved to have heard Teyla's thoughts while she was trapped in that Wraith cell). This is an ep that will have to soak in a bit, that is more than just action.

I agree with most of your points. well written and very concise. I agree this is an ep that will stand rewatching and rethinking. :D
I could have done without the image of mckay in a tub :eek: *wonders if she is scarred for life* :S

diane23
July 25th, 2008, 09:18 PM
I could have done without the image of mckay in a tub :eek: *wonders if she is scarred for life* :S

Be thankful for the bubbles :P

Ruffles
July 25th, 2008, 09:19 PM
I loved all that stuff. Especially all the little stuff tied into Ronon's backstory, like the first Satedan (don't know his name) that Teyla and Ronon ran into in 'Trinity'

Solen maybe? I love when they tie back in to what we've seen before (oh, I think we call that continuity!). I was kinda hoping he would mention Ronon killing Kell. I've wondered for 3 years if Sheppard ever found out.


I could have done without the image of mckay in a tub :eek: *wonders if she is scarred for life* :S

Then never, EVER watch A Dog's Breakfast. I haven't actually seen it but I caught a clip on the ADB website (at work!!!). My eyes!

jelgate
July 25th, 2008, 09:19 PM
Jelgate's Two CentsWhat must go up must also go down. Not as good the previous episodes but defiantly my favorite early Ronon episode. It really showed the wide range Jason Momoa's acting abilities. Not to mention it gave us the viewers an insight into the Wraith

This has to be one of the shortest teaser scenes I have ever seen in Stargate. All it really did was show that Kanan was living on Atlantis with Teyla and then Ronon is captured by the Tyre. Don't get me wrong. It achieved what it needed but I felt their could have been more dialogue in the scene

The briefing room scene was kind of funny. The way Woolsey was kind of nudging the fact that he wasn't entirely supportive of looking into Ronon's old friends and the certain amount of hostility he had when asking if Teyla she was going to rejoin the team. If it was Weir or Carter, they would have given Teyla as much time as she needed but the bureaucrat needs to know as soon as possible. I say he got what he deserved when the Atlantis doors closed in his face.

Even though the scene at the bar between Col. Sheppard's team and the Satedian wasn't really necessary, it did get me a little background into Pegasus Galaxy culture. I know it’s a little obvious but that scene basically tells us that Wraith worshippers are considered traitors but the normal inhabitants of the Pegasus Galaxy and that everyone despises Tyre.

It’s been so long since I've seen Voyager; I have forgotten just how talented an actor Robert Picardo is. The scene between Woolsey and Teyla was very moving I think he can understand what Teyla is going through. Granted he has no kids but to a lot people pets are like their children. The sadness Woolsey showed me about losing his dog really shows that he understands what it is like to choose for a loved one. Emotion like that is rare for Woolsey. I haven't seen something like that Inauguration.

One negative thing about this episode is that the early scenes between Tyre and Ronon seemed to drag on two long. I felt like it could have been a lot shorter. Did we really need to show all that dialogue of how Ronon was going to resist and how he was never going to give. The only good thing that came out of the time Ronon was captured to the time the Wraith (he had a horrible wig) was that we learned the negative side effects of the "gift of life." I wonder if it is the same thing as the enzyme that Ford got drugged up on in S2. The only difference is that one is voluntarily while the other is forced. Look a Wraith double crossed Tyre. Who saw that one coming?:rolleyes:

That withdrawal period is pretty violent. That looks a lot worse than the withdrawal that McKay went through in The Hive. Not using sedatives was something I was not expecting. Granted Keller is right about it slowing down the recovery but I almost wonder if it is a violation of her Hippocratic Oath. Is she doing harm? Not very surprising that Tyre knew where Ronon was being held. I on the other hand was shocked that Sheppard took Tyre with him.

I think I enjoyed the B storyline better. Teyla struggling with her decision to stay with Torren or join the team I liked how she showed anger when Sheppard went offworld without her. The little conflict between him and Teyla about making a choice reminded of the Gift. The scene where Teyla gives Torren to Woolsey made milk come out of my nose. However, I felt that the Teyla/Kanaan scene was shoved down my throat. I am in no way a shipper but it seemed too forced. Even though it was Ronon episode, it was still a good character episode for Teyla

Ronon can play a good villain. He walks right up to Sheppard and punches him to nose. I have to say it’s pretty predictable that Tyre was going to turn on the Atlantis expedition. I was shocked when he cut off Bad Wig Wraith hand. The first thought that came to my mind that it was Ronon who did this. Of course story wise it makes sense that Ronon would still be drugged. The sword fight just didn't seem right to me. The combination of the lighting and speed made the fight hard to watch. I understand why Tyre blew up the facilities with the No-Faces watching him but it was a little predictable for my taste. Not to mention the CGI of the place exploding was terrible.

It’s strange. It seems like Ronon has a worst withdrawal period then Tyre. Shouldn't it been easier for Ronon given that he was on it a lot less than Tyre. Even Woolsey’s quarters are like an office. Did anyone notice his bookshelf? I didn't know he was a classical music fan. I wonder if it’s a subtle remark to the Voyager doctor who liked opera. The scene of everyone relaxing was fine until they showed McKay in a bathtub. I might have to poke my eyes out.

For those of you keeping track, Tyre saved the day in this episode.

Rac80
July 25th, 2008, 09:22 PM
Be thankful for the bubbles :P


Solen maybe? I love when they tie back in to what we've seen before (oh, I think we call that continuity!). I was kinda hoping he would mention Ronon killing Kell. I've wondered for 3 years if Sheppard ever found out.



Then never, EVER watch A Dog's Breakfast. I haven't actually seen it but I caught a clip on the ADB website (at work!!!). My eyes!

I am grateful for the bubbles and I saw a clip.... it scared me bad! TOOK WEEKS OF LOOKING AT PHOTOS OF HOT MEN TO CURE ME! ;)

A Wraith Named Bob
July 25th, 2008, 09:22 PM
Pssst!...paragraphs. Joking...sort of...:)

cobymal
July 25th, 2008, 09:25 PM
I have one little question. In season two doesn't Ronin say the Wraith couldn't feed on him?

newbiegater
July 25th, 2008, 09:27 PM
I love the pictures of Jennifer and Ronon...so sweet! I hope they get together.

operagrrl
July 25th, 2008, 09:27 PM
I have one little question. In season two doesn't Ronin say the Wraith couldn't feed on him?

I asked that question earlier. Just go up a page or two and read what people said!

diane23
July 25th, 2008, 09:27 PM
I have one little question. In season two doesn't Ronin say the Wraith couldn't feed on him?

I thought the Wraith just didn't feed on him because they sensed his strength and knew he'd make a good Runner.

Jeffala
July 25th, 2008, 09:32 PM
i thought the wraith just didn't feed on him because they sensed his strength and knew he'd make a good runner.

Bingo!

Landers
July 25th, 2008, 09:32 PM
I thought the Wraith just didn't feed on him because they sensed his strength and knew he'd make a good Runner.

They never said one way or the other, just left it up to interpretation in "Runner".

I felt the Wraith had a weird, frustrated look and couldn't feed on Ronon in "Runner", and everyone I know feels the same way. This just came across (for me) as another goof on the part of the writers, like Teyla's father's name. ;)

jelgate
July 25th, 2008, 09:33 PM
I This is an ep that will have to soak in a bit, that is more than just action.
So your just like Rodney:P

diane23
July 25th, 2008, 09:33 PM
Hey um, quick question. Did the Wraith's voice sound different to anyone else, or was it just me? I'm honestly curious here, because something sounded different to me. I know not every single Wraith is the same and everything, but most of their voices always sound so similar..

jelgate
July 25th, 2008, 09:36 PM
Hey um, quick question. Did the Wraith's voice sound different to anyone else, or was it just me? I'm honestly curious here, because something sounded different to me. I know not every single Wraith is the same and everything, but most of their voices always sound so similar..Your not alone. That Wraith didn't have the same scare as other Wraith

diane23
July 25th, 2008, 09:38 PM
Your not alone. That Wraith didn't have the same scare as other Wraith

Ah, yeah..he seemed different. Much less scary..

Jeffala
July 25th, 2008, 09:44 PM
Ah, yeah..he seemed different. Much less scary..

Maybe he hadn't hit puberty yet.

A Wraith Named Bob
July 25th, 2008, 09:45 PM
Hey um, quick question. Did the Wraith's voice sound different to anyone else, or was it just me? I'm honestly curious here, because something sounded different to me. I know not every single Wraith is the same and everything, but most of their voices always sound so similar..

He didn't seem to have the audio effects added to his voice. You know how all the others tend to have a scratchiness to their voice, like the Go'auld have the resonance? He didn't seem to have that so much.

miniglik
July 25th, 2008, 09:48 PM
Hey um, quick question. Did the Wraith's voice sound different to anyone else, or was it just me? I'm honestly curious here, because something sounded different to me. I know not every single Wraith is the same and everything, but most of their voices always sound so similar..

The voice was terrible. The actor's was already too highly pitched, and then it wasn't treated enough. It was like Woolsey talking under the makeup.

I think the Wraith voice alone brought the episode done. To buy the episode I have to buy the baddie, and the baddie was incredibly bad.

diane23
July 25th, 2008, 09:48 PM
Maybe he hadn't hit puberty yet.
Lol! Ah, Wraith adolescence.


He didn't seem to have the audio effects added to his voice. You know how all the others tend to have a scratchiness to their voice, like the Go'auld have the resonance? He didn't seem to have that so much.
Yeah, I couldn't figure out what was different, but it was definitely the audio effects. I wonder why they did that.. Weird.

ladyjanus
July 25th, 2008, 10:18 PM
Okay, I liked this one. Good action, good characterization, good team stuff, good acting. Props to JM for some kick-ass emoting, despite the wig.

I really liked the scenes with Tyre. His sweaty, twitchy, strung-out and wrung-out take on withdrawal was wicked. And it was good to see someone else beside Sheppard be the one to step up, put his life on the line and save the day for a change.

That being said, Sheppard was in high military form in this ep, all reined in and tough. I really loved the way he locked eyes with Tyre, and they both knew that Tyre was not going to be "right behind." The tone of his voice when he tells the teams to move out was sharp as a blade.

And I, for one, liked Rodney in the tub. Okay, so he's no John Sheppard, all lean and sexy, but Hewlett's no dog. He's attractive — in a normal, kind-of real-life way. And yes I have seen the pics from the film he made. It's a nice butt. Nothing to go crazy over, but nice.

Overall, I give it a solid 8 out of 10.

DragonLadyK
July 25th, 2008, 10:29 PM
Our first hint of Runners was in "Poisoning the Well" from Season 1.

"PERNA: His journals tell of one man who survived an encounter with the Wraith. Ferrel and his team discovered that this man possessed a unique protein, one that enabled him to resist the chemical released by the Wraith to precipitate draining of life from their victims."

Later, Ronon himself says,

"DEX: I was captured during a culling on my planet. I was taken to a ship. A Wraith started to feed on me. (Flashback of a Wraith with his hand on Dex's chest who suddenly stops looking surprised, then looks down at his hand.) Something made him stop."

This implication was expanded upon in "Spoils of War," where Ronon appeared to use this immunity as a tactical advantage:

"HIVE QUEEN: Tell me what I want to know, or I feed on one of your friends.
(John still doesn’t answer.)
HIVE QUEEN: As you wish.
(She turns towards the other two.)
DEX: Well, if you’re hungry, I’m the one you’re lookin’ for."

The implication has always been that Ronon is immune to the regular Wraith feeding process and was therefore made a Runner instead of lunch like the rest of his people. The viewers who are upset are not crazy.

That being said, we do know from "The Lost Boys" and "The Hive" that Ronon is suceptible to a purified form of the enzyme.

So, then, the Runner immunity to feeding must be a dosage problem. TPTB didn't show it (because their attention to detail is nonexistent), but all the Wraith would have needed to do was give Ronon a dose of purified enzyme before beginning the regular feeding process to make him vulnerable.

TPTB need a beta reader to tell them to show these things. To avoid confusion. *mutters* Kinda like Teyla not even trying to shut the Hive ship down in "The Seed."

DragonLady

MainlyJane
July 25th, 2008, 11:10 PM
Thank you, DragonLady! I was thinking of those specific episodes without having the quotes to hand. I clearly remember the flashback...the wraith puts his hand on Ronon, stops, looks confused, and snarls. And I knew that research on the Hoffan drug was started in the first place because they found someone who was immune.

I actually wondered during "The Lost Boys" how they got around Ronon's inability to absorb the enzyme. I suppose dosage is as good an answer as any.

Honestly, though, the wraith feeding on Ronon when he shouldn't be able to kinda spoiled the rest of the episode for me, despite the great lines and scenes with the other characters.

I would only add that in "Reunion" we get the impression that the Satedans were tortured by the wraith for a very long time before becoming Wraith-worshippers, and I found it unrealistic that Ronon could be brainwashed in so short a time.

Of course, Rodney in the tub at the end made up for a lot of the shortcomings in the plot.

LoneStar1836
July 25th, 2008, 11:28 PM
I think I liked last week's episode better than this one. :S And that's not saying much.

Even Major Lorne couldn't make it better. Boy that was a quick recovery from a broken leg. Or it seemed like it was anyway. Maybe enough months had passed. Course that's one story detail that I don't care if it's believable or not because I didn't want him gone very long.

Ronon turns into a Wraith worshiper just like that? :S I know it was a time period of couple of days/a week or so but still. Eh whatever. Not buying it. (And I don't even care about the can they/can't they feeding controversy.)

The Teyla bits were good. At least we did get to see her struggle a bit with her decision to return...like her conversation with Shep. I still find Kanaan to be a weak character. I just don't see it between those two. But anyway, his remark about her owing it to the galaxy to go back. wth. She owes the galaxy nothing. Poor choice of words, imo. Even if it did lead to the general reason that her presence out there was a way to possibly bring hope of a better life for her child and other humans in Pegasus.

There were some good character moments though that I enjoyed.

Two of those not being when Woolsey got shut in the conference room and then when his idea of "comfortable" clothing is a business suit. Seriously? Come on. They try to humanize him with the dog story and then we get that.

And just why would the doors shut on him? :mckay: That's me not laughing at that. Why didn't the doors ever close on Carter? Probably because she wasn't there to be made fun of. Was Chuck sitting out there playing with the door controls? Bad Chuck. Stop that. I don't want you reassigned. :D

Anyway I liked the Shep/McKay convo in the mess hall and umm well some of the other ones. I only saw this ep once. The character bits were again the highlight of the ep rather than the story...well except for Teyla's B story.

Shan Bruce Lee
July 26th, 2008, 12:19 AM
Our first hint of Runners was in "Poisoning the Well" from Season 1.

"PERNA: His journals tell of one man who survived an encounter with the Wraith. Ferrel and his team discovered that this man possessed a unique protein, one that enabled him to resist the chemical released by the Wraith to precipitate draining of life from their victims."

Later, Ronon himself says,

"DEX: I was captured during a culling on my planet. I was taken to a ship. A Wraith started to feed on me. (Flashback of a Wraith with his hand on Dex's chest who suddenly stops looking surprised, then looks down at his hand.) Something made him stop."

The key here isn't the "made him" part, it's the "something"


This implication was expanded upon in "Spoils of War," where Ronon appeared to use this immunity as a tactical advantage:

"HIVE QUEEN: Tell me what I want to know, or I feed on one of your friends.
(John still doesn’t answer.)
HIVE QUEEN: As you wish.
(She turns towards the other two.)
DEX: Well, if you’re hungry, I’m the one you’re lookin’ for."

Nothing about that suggests that Ronon can't be fed on. In fact it says he can and would most likely "taste" better than Shep.


The implication has always been that Ronon is immune to the regular Wraith feeding process and was therefore made a Runner instead of lunch like the rest of his people. The viewers who are upset are not crazy.

That being said, we do know from "The Lost Boys" and "The Hive" that Ronon is suceptible to a purified form of the enzyme.

So, then, the Runner immunity to feeding must be a dosage problem. TPTB didn't show it (because their attention to detail is nonexistent), but all the Wraith would have needed to do was give Ronon a dose of purified enzyme before beginning the regular feeding process to make him vulnerable.

TPTB need a beta reader to tell them to show these things. To avoid confusion. *mutters* Kinda like Teyla not even trying to shut the Hive ship down in "The Seed."

DragonLady

Was there even a Hive ship in 'The Seed'? Cause all I remember was the seed.

Khentkawes
July 26th, 2008, 12:40 AM
For those of you keeping track, Tyre saved the day in this episode.

Yes he did. It was a nice change. ;)



I think I enjoyed the B storyline better. Teyla struggling with her decision to stay with Torren or join the team I liked how she showed anger when Sheppard went offworld without her.

I agree.
I really like Ronon, so I was looking forward to a Ronon-centric story. What I got was a fairly unexciting, but well-acted Ronon story. There were some parts that seemed a bit slow. Like the extended feeding sessions. Or Ronon repeating "you're wasting your time, I'm not going to turn." As if anyone expected him to say anything different. Maybe I just don't care for the whole brainwashing/addiction thing (feels like we're rehashing Ford's addiction mixed up with when Teal'c was brainwashed). And I thought Tyre turning into a good guy was a little too quick and easy. But, the withdrawal scenes were well done - a bit disturbing and uncomfortable, but that's to be expected with the subject matter. And it was nice to see the team doing their best to support Ronon. Basically, I thought the Ronon plot line was so-so. It was okay, but not great.

However, the Teyla B plot was wonderfully done. I was shocked that Kanaan was allowed on Atlantis. The scene where he talked with Teyla was great. I've never felt like we knew anything about him as a character before, and finally I can see why Teyla would have started a relationship with him. I also think it will be interesting to see how Teyla develops this year, considering she now has a family. I know some people will be irritated by the emphasis on baby and family on an "action" show, but I think it gives Teyla a refreshingly "real world" feel.

Woolsey was great all the way through. Especially his scenes with Teyla. Interestingly, I thought Sheppard came off as a bit insensitive in contrast to Woolsey (both in regards to Teyla, and in regards to Tyre's withdrawal). I will say yet again that Robert Picardo is a terrific actor. I'm definitely excited about seeing more of him.

Oh, Rodney staying up all night worrying was also rather funny. It was nice to see Rodney (and to some extent, even Sheppard) take a back seat in this episode, and yet still have a few funny moments without overpowering the other characters.

Overall, I thought it was a strong episode. And some great character development. Easily my favorite episode of the season so far.

MerryK
July 26th, 2008, 01:06 AM
A nice, solid episode—I enjoyed it greatly.

I know a lot of people hate the addition of random love interests and most of all children...but as long as we don't get Kanaan and Torren every week, I'm really loving this storyline. Provided they don't die or disappear any time soon, I think it's a good thing for the show, taking them in a direction that SG-1 never managed to achieve, and adding to that familial feel of the city and characters.

I really didn't like Kanaan in the Kindred or S&R, but I did enjoy him here. Yes, he's rather blandly nice, but isn't that how Teyla described him in Missing? And yes, they don't have sparky chemistry...that's what happens when two people who've known each other since childhood get together as adults. It's a relationship built on friendship, not passion, though the latter fuels it. And that showed very well on screen, the comfortable companionship and support. Nicely written and acted, IMO.

I didn't really enjoy Ronon's wee trip down the dark side—loved the resisting and the withdrawal/recovery, but the stuff in between was not too interesting.

Woolsey—I've always sympathized with the character (being a rule-follower at heart) even though I've disapproved of him, but here I actually liked him. Yes, he's annoyingly beaurocratic, but as we've seen over the years, he's getting there. I loved the little comic moments about the Yorkie and the Atlantis doors—nicely played without being forced. And of course his suit! And Torren! Instead of being the guy we love to hate, he's the guy we love to patronize. In other words—canon Woolsey post-season 8. :)

And was that last scene absolutely brilliant or what? Like the montage in Unending, it's a tiny bit out of place, but a huge majority just well done. I watched it about three times, squeeing with glee. Even if the rest of the episode varied in quality from fair to good, this last scene solidified it a "very good" in my book.

7/10

Integrabyte
July 26th, 2008, 01:17 AM
Bravo Woolsey. The perfect replacement. I forgot all about Weir and Carter. Like Claudia Black, Robert Picardo is an asset. Seeing the episode the second time, I can find more +ve than -ve.

Linzi
July 26th, 2008, 03:15 AM
I really liked this episode, and found myself getting a bit emotional in some of Ronon's withdrawal scenes at the end. The bit where Sheppard came in and gave Ronon the sword made me sniff! :lol: What am I like? :o

So, I liked both plots. I didn't find the feeding scenes long winded really. I thought it was important to show how much Ronon had gone through before he was turned to the dark side. I liked Tyre here. He looked absolutely dreadful to start with, so kudos to the make-up artists here. I did know he was not bad in the end, that was a little obvious, but I didn't expect him to sacrifice himself, so that was a nice touch.

Jason did a wonderful job here. I felt this really was his best performance so far. I felt very sad for Ronon, and thought the withdrawal scenes were very realistic and quite disturbing.

I loved Woolsey. I didn't have a problem with him becoming leader. I was surprised, sure, but not concerned. RP is a great actor, and Woolsey is a great fit so far. I love the comic bits as well as his more understanding nature. I think he's going to be fantastic!

I loved Sheppard too. The way he was itching to go get Ronon but had to patiently ask Woolsey for permission - I like that squirming as he waited for the all clear. I also saw his distress at Ronon's plight - that was evident on his face. I did laugh when Shep said he wasn't going to share a bath with Rodney :lol: and also laughed at Shep's face when drinking his coffee towards the end. Was it cold, or just horrible tasting? :lol: I also liked the way Sheppard really gave Teyla the kick up the backside she needed in order to make a decision. At first I thought he was being a tad harsh, but then when he said he'd been under pressure from Woolsey to find a replacement and that he couldn't ask her which missions she wanted to do or not to do, that he was right - she needed to follow her heart one way or the other.

Teyla was great here. She was indecisive, understandably so, and really needed to sort herself out. She did, and I'm glad she did. How cute is that baby? :lol:

Kanaan? Well he was better, thank goodness. I don't want to see the family playing happy families too much though, but am glad he was supportive of her wishes. I hope this has answered questions and drawn a line under the whole baby/returning to work saga for the moment. It needed to be addressed, and it has. It was well done, IMO, so let's move on, for now :)

Liked Rodney. Especially when they went to the first planet and initially found nothing and he said he said it was a waste of time and that he thought it would be a long shot etc.. and then when Lorne's message said they'd found something he said "I knew it!" Also liked him talking away to Ronon about his piano playing childhood. That was a nice touch, IMO.

So, overall yet another top notch episode. Well done to JM here. I think he wrote a balanced and emotive script. Special mention to go to Jason. I felt Ronon's pain and torment! At the moment it gets 8/10. That could change as The Seed has been upgraded to 9/10 since last week! :lol:

I look forward to The Daedalus Variations. Wow, that looks good! :D

Leliana McKay
July 26th, 2008, 03:20 AM
I liked the episode but prefered last week's. There are good and bad scenes but in the end the good scenes win.

In no specific order, my thoughts...
Jason did a great job looking in pain or being tortured and Tyre was awesome in every possible way but the b-storyline aka Teyla resuming or not active duty was boring! Ok, it had to be dealt with but I thought her scenes with Woolsey were lame.

Woolsey was really too sympathetic in the episode. The change is too quick for my liking. I like gradual changes and this happened too fast. Teyla asking him if he has children and him telling her he had a yorkie, he divorced from his wife and she got the dog! How... not that fun. I want a middle ground Woolsey. Him locked in the conference room was fun but his other scenes were forced.

Teyla seemed almost transparent but in the end she comes back to active duty so it's good. Kannan is living on Atlantis and takes care of their son, I never thought this would happen. yay! *happy familly*
I loved the baby's wood crib, very nice to see something different design.

Rodney stayed up all night worrying about Ronon? I thought that was weird. Why is he that affected about Ronon? Has he done that for anyone else? Am I the only one that thinks it was a bit out of character?

The bathing line was funny. Relax to get a brilliant idea! I laughed at the McShep attempt however Sheppard refused to take a bath with Rodney! ROFL

LORNE!! Cute Lorne! SQUEE. That was short but I still drooled upon seing him. *lol*

Kudos to the make-up artist for Ronon and Tyre looking....hmm really awful!

Oh gosh Woolsey doesn't look a bit sexy on the gateroom balcony. I want Carter back!

Teyla leaving her son in Woolsey's hands (OMG! This was scary! lol)

Ronon wakes up under Rodney's watch. I died from laughter when I heard what Rodney was talking about. That feels like old times! David's second episode in SG1, Redemption... him talking to Sam about playing the Piano. SQUEEEEEE! I loved that scene!
Well Ronon was not really listening anyway, Rodney is happy and screams like a girl "He is back!" Bravo David!

The music in Woolsey's quarters... OMG! *covers ears*

And to finish a good laugh, Rodney in his bath is a MUST SEE! I wonder what cleaver idea he got!

My grade: 7.5/10 for Tyre, Ronon, Lorne and for trying to make this a bit funny.

hank
July 26th, 2008, 04:03 AM
so is Woolsey the leader of atlantis????? couldn't tell. It seemed like Sheppard made all the choices and Woolsey was like do what he says.

Ok episode but actor chemistry is way down this season than compared to season 1. Thats what happens when u remove like 4 regular cast members. I mean compare acting from earlier atlantis seasons to now and there is like a huge difference.

I mean Ronan was played way better in the episode Sateda(304) then this episode and similar Ronan based story. In Sateda seemed like Sheppard and stuff really wanted to rescue him here didnt feel like their heart was in it. Except Teyla.

storyline felt really rushed and i getting kind of sick of the characters getting into trouble and at the end of the episode all is merry.

Although episode had funny bits. Mackay in bath tub lol.

disappointing start to season 5 so far.

Linda06
July 26th, 2008, 05:10 AM
Well i really liked this ep....The bit in the conference room was pretty funny,how Woolsey couldn't get the doors open.....I was one of the ones that was on the fence in regards to Woolsey but from what i've seen so far i like him :D

Also it's good to see,well not good perhaps for Teyla but it's good to see her struggling with what to do in regards to returning to the team...It's a big decision to make so i'm glad they had her go through it and actually had it on screen instead of off screen...Also great to see someone else getting whumped for a change instead of Shep...Now all we need is some good Teyla whump and Rodney whump ;)

I loved the Woolsey/Teyla scene in his office and him talking about his beloved dog....:lol: I never invisioned Woolsey as the comforting kind but he was trying to stay positive about Ronon...

Um ok....Can y'all believe this is the third ep in a row that i've liked Rodney :S Thank goodness they've toned down the whining and babbling alot..

I actually kinda felt sorry for Tyre when he was going cold turkey so to speak...

Um there is something else....Um i kinda liked the Teyla/Kanaan scene...psst just don't tell my fellow JTers :o He was so different from the hybrid Kanaan..The way he supported Teyla whatever decision she made..

Oh and a little angsty moment between Teyla and John :D when he more or less told her to make a decision one way or another..

hehe and Woolsey with bambino was kinda sweet and funny..

I knew that Tyre didn't turn against them again...I figured it they would have known it'd be a trap and come up with a plan for it..

Poor Ronon all sweaty and tied down like that :D Bet the Ronon whumpers were pleased ;)

hmmm something more comfortable...I wouldn't have called a suit and tie comfortabnle but each to their own :rolleyes:

So glad the Rodney in the bathtub wasn't as bad as i thought it would be...Thank goodness for bubblebath ;)

So all in all i loved this ep very much......And glad the focus was on someone else other than Shep or Rodney for a change...Now all we need is for Teyla to get a turn ;)

KindlyKeller
July 26th, 2008, 05:13 AM
i getting kind of sick of the characters getting into trouble and at the end of the episode all is merry.


Isn't that kind of... every episode over Stargate's 15 years?

As for the character chemistry, I can see what you mean, but I also don't think it's as lacking as you say. McKay and Sheppard's chemistry is still great, Sheppard's and Teyla's chemistry is still good, McKay's and Keller's and Sheppard's and Keller's chemistry is good, and I think Woolsey already has good chemistry with the group in general.

I'll have to abstain on whether Ronon's chemistry with the others is "still" there because I never thought it was there to begin with.

I think the chemistry just kind of "evolves" over time.

For instance, McKay's and Sheppard's relationship was more dynamic to a certain extent in Season 1, because they weren't friends yet, so there was some tension there. Now they're best friends, so it's a more easy, companionable type rapport.

pittsburghgirl
July 26th, 2008, 05:31 AM
Does anyone know the name of the classical piece playing at the end the episode?
Thank you.

stclare
July 26th, 2008, 06:15 AM
Well i really liked this ep....The bit in the conference room was pretty funny,how Woolsey couldn't get the doors open.....I was one of the ones that was on the fence in regards to Woolsey but from what i've seen so far i like him :D

Also it's good to see,well not good perhaps for Teyla but it's good to see her struggling with what to do in regards to returning to the team...It's a big decision to make so i'm glad they had her go through it and actually had it on screen instead of off screen...Also great to see someone else getting whumped for a change instead of Shep...Now all we need is some good Teyla whump and Rodney whump ;)

I loved the Woolsey/Teyla scene in his office and him talking about his beloved dog....:lol: I never invisioned Woolsey as the comforting kind but he was trying to stay positive about Ronon...

Um ok....Can y'all believe this is the third ep in a row that i've liked Rodney :S Thank goodness they've toned down the whining and babbling alot..

I actually kinda felt sorry for Tyre when he was going cold turkey so to speak...

Um there is something else....Um i kinda liked the Teyla/Kanaan scene...psst just don't tell my fellow JTers :o He was so different from the hybrid Kanaan..The way he supported Teyla whatever decision she made..

Oh and a little angsty moment between Teyla and John :D when he more or less told her to make a decision one way or another..

hehe and Woolsey with bambino was kinda sweet and funny..

I knew that Tyre didn't turn against them again...I figured it they would have known it'd be a trap and come up with a plan for it..

Poor Ronon all sweaty and tied down like that :D Bet the Ronon whumpers were pleased ;)

hmmm something more comfortable...I wouldn't have called a suit and tie comfortabnle but each to their own :rolleyes:

So glad the Rodney in the bathtub wasn't as bad as i thought it would be...Thank goodness for bubblebath ;)

So all in all i loved this ep very much......And glad the focus was on someone else other than Shep or Rodney for a change...Now all we need is for Teyla to get a turn ;)

So you didnt jinx the ep as expected - in regards to Rodney and whining :)

this was another good solid episode imho.

though id like to see some more conflict between Woolsey and the team, he seems to be over accomodating at the moment. where's my hotzone moment? i was expecting something along those lines early on in the season? maybe there setting us up for something big (i hope) conflict wise.

3 eps in and i already prefer this season to last i hope that continues.

damn those bubbles there was icon heaven in that tub ;)

pjt
July 26th, 2008, 06:33 AM
Well, some mixed feelings here. I think I don't like jaffa, er... I mean, Satedan episodes. ;) But the biggest problem was, that it was plain (and) predictable, and served only one purpose, to have a mission for Teyla to decide. On the other hand the B plot was fine, all with Woolsey, the Kanaans and Sheppard not wanting a bath with Rodney. :D

The whole wraith worshiper idea is good, now we saw how it works, and what withdrawal symptoms it will cause. But the story was weak, as it was written by the numbers which was rather disappointing from Misters Mallozzi and Mullie, which ever stopped caring for it during writing.

Some points though:
1. No one said that wraith could not feed on Ronon, ergo not plot hole.
2. Keller keeps being not liked by those, who don't like her, no surprise here either.
3. Who plays Teyla's baby?

Linda06
July 26th, 2008, 06:34 AM
So you didnt jinx the ep as expected - in regards to Rodney and whining :)

this was another good solid episode imho.

though id like to see some more conflict between Woolsey and the team, he seems to be over accomodating at the moment. where's my hotzone moment? i was expecting something along those lines early on in the season? maybe there setting us up for something big (i hope) conflict wise.

3 eps in and i already prefer this season to last i hope that continues.

damn those bubbles there was icon heaven in that tub ;)


Nope i didn't but i'm not gonna talk too soon ;)

I prefer this season alot more too....It's just so good to see Teyla back :D

FoolishPleasure
July 26th, 2008, 06:34 AM
This was just a borefest for me, and I almost fell asleep in it.

Woolsey, who I expected to hate this season, has become a character I love to watch (Woolsey and the baby was priceless). Maybe the writers are dumbing down everyone. Maybe the writing in general is less consistant. Maybe Picardo is just a better actor than some of the others. Who knows. But Woolsey saved this episode from sinking into the "really bad" catagory.

I did like the Woolsey and Teyla scenes. Woolsey came off much better than Sheppard, who seemed harsh, but he (Shep) was too harsh with her when he found out she was pregnant. Seriously, if TPTB intent to ship those two, I can't for the life of me figure out why she would want someone who only shows anger towards her. Ronon, Carson, even Lorne come across as caring and understanding, but Sheppard just comes across as an uncaring ass sometimes. He may be easy on the eyes, but I really wouldn't want to spend much time with his personality.

Speaking of Lorne. What a waste this time around. He was there, yet he wasn't. He has become a much more interesting character than, "We found something!". We like him. Use him!

The Tyre and Ronon scenes didn't impress me. Even the swordfight was poorly edited, badly lighted, and when the film gets a boost in speed to make the action faster, I really tune out. That could have been done better. Much better.

Someone please duct tape Keller's mouth. She grates on me something fierce.

This whole episode had the feeling of, "oh we have to do something, but we are brain dead this week so we'll just do this."

Last week wasn't too bad. This week wasn't too good. Better luck next week dudes.

Linda06
July 26th, 2008, 06:36 AM
Well, some mixed feelings here. I think I don't like jaffa, er... I mean, Satedan episodes. ;) But the biggest problem was, that it was plain (and) predictable, and served only one purpose, to have a mission for Teyla to decide. On the other hand the B plot was fine, all with Woolsey, the Kanaans and Sheppard not wanting a bath with Rodney. :D

The whole wraith worshiper idea is good, now we saw how it works, and what withdrawal symptoms it will cause. But the story was weak, as it was written by the numbers which was rather disappointing from Misters Mallozzi and Mullie, which ever stopped caring for it during writing.

Some points though:
1. No one said that wraith could not feed on Ronon, ergo not plot hole.
2. Keller keeps being not liked by those, who don't like her, no surprise here either.
3. Who plays Teyla's baby?


I liked Keller in this ep :D

Oh and another thing......I didn't really like this wrsith very much!

pjt
July 26th, 2008, 06:42 AM
I liked Keller in this ep :D

Oh and another thing......I didn't really like this wraith very much!

He spoke like the apes from the original Planet of the Apes movie, only the British accent was missing. :D

stclare
July 26th, 2008, 06:46 AM
I liked Keller in this ep :D

Oh and another thing......I didn't really like this wrsith very much!

That wraith was a bit of a let down to me. Todd is great I love Todd. this wraith though just didnt scare me. he came accross to me as slimey and unkept I half expected him to try and start selling life cover or something ;)

Keller was in this ep very little she didnt bother me one way or the other, I did like the scene where she and rodney beat a hasty retreat from the John and Teyla drama unfolding. that was nice to see :)

KindlyKeller
July 26th, 2008, 06:47 AM
"Cor-NEL-ius, he can TALK!"

stclare
July 26th, 2008, 06:49 AM
"Cor-NEL-ius, he can TALK!"

:confused:

KindlyKeller
July 26th, 2008, 06:52 AM
:confused:

A line from "Planet of the Apes," which pjt referenced in the post right before yours. I would have quoted it, but I thought I'd be right underneath it. :)

Linda06
July 26th, 2008, 06:57 AM
He spoke like the apes from the original Planet of the Apes movie, only the British accent was missing. :D

hmm cicn't really watch planet of the apes :o


That wraith was a bit of a let down to me. Todd is great I love Todd. this wraith though just didnt scare me. he came accross to me as slimey and unkept I half expected him to try and start selling life cover or something ;)

Keller was in this ep very little she didnt bother me one way or the other, I did like the scene where she and rodney beat a hasty retreat from the John and Teyla drama unfolding. that was nice to see :)


Yeah...I thought he looked kinda feeble and not at all scary like some of the other wraith...

hehe,that was pretty funny....They're like um ok,we're gonna um...go...yeah...bye bye *runs away :lol:

I think John was a bit harsh on Teyla...Everyone else seemed to understand her predicament but all John could do was chew her out...Even Woolsey was more understanding....I mean it wasn't like she was picking and choosing what missions she was wanna go on here.....Ronon is her friend,he's like a brother to her so of course she'd wanna do whatever it took to help him!

stclare
July 26th, 2008, 07:15 AM
hmm cicn't really watch planet of the apes :o




Yeah...I thought he looked kinda feeble and not at all scary like some of the other wraith...

hehe,that was pretty funny....They're like um ok,we're gonna um...go...yeah...bye bye *runs away :lol:

I think John was a bit harsh on Teyla...Everyone else seemed to understand her predicament but all John could do was chew her out...Even Woolsey was more understanding....I mean it wasn't like she was picking and choosing what missions she was wanna go on here.....Ronon is her friend,he's like a brother to her so of course she'd wanna do whatever it took to help him!


I took Sheps stance to be him trying not to guilt her into going and giving her the space to make the decision for herself. I wish my boss had been like that when i was pregnant with my 1st child - im glad i dont work there anymore :cool:

dasNdanger
July 26th, 2008, 07:20 AM
That wraith was a bit of a let down to me. Todd is great I love Todd. this wraith though just didnt scare me. he came accross to me as slimey and unkept I half expected him to try and start selling life cover or something ;)

And that's why I liked him! Tyler did a great job - I liked him a bit better than Scott from last year (granny wig Wraith). I love it when the Wraith are slimy and creepy. They are bugs, afterall. I don't think they're supposed to scare us, they're supposed to make our skin crawl...just like when we see a bug creeping across the floor.

My thoughts about the episode - it was good, it really held my attention. Woolsey was GREAT! God, what a breath of fresh air!!!

But, as a Wraith Defender (a.k.a. Worshipper), I have two big complaints:

First, I'm tired of the cliche endings for the Wraith. You see a Wraith, you know he/she will be dead by episode's end. The only (individual) ones to escape have been the Wraith in Condemned, Todd, and the one in Travelers...as far as I can recall. They're nothing more than cannon fodder, and as long as they continue to be used as such, no real development will ever happen.

In this regard I think that was the purpose of the episode - to make the Wraith slimy and unlikeable so that fools like me will stop defending them and accept that TPTB's singular goal is to annihilate them once and for all...because it'll be 'cool'.

Ugh.

And yes, I realize they are the enemy, but that doesn't mean that there can NEVER be a different storyline for these guys. Todd's the only one who has been given room to grow (besides Michael, though I don't consider him Wraith anymore). And even with Todd I have my doubts they will keep him in the grey area and not turn him into an all-out villain.

In this regard, my bigger complaint is about Wraith character development. They're trying to make them evil, though they've already established in earlier episodes that they can show honor (Todd, and to a lesser extent, Michael in No Man's Land), that they act upon instinct and not by evil choice (Ellia, Michael), and that they need to kill out of necessity, not out of malicious intent (Todd). Also, keep in mind that the Wraith are defending their place in the galaxy against intruders from Earth, which is exactly what you or I would do if someone invaded our land.

So, they can TRY now to make them 'evil', but it still doesn't change how I feel; I still see a species doing what it needs to in order to survive. As far as the worshipper concept goes, that's no different from some species of ants who capture slaves from other species, forcing them to work for the colony, even becoming dependent on those slaves for survival.

So, the Wraith are the same - they need someone to work for them, praise them, serve them. Cool. At least there's a little development here, but now explain WHY they need this. It’s too easy to say it’s arrogance - if anything, I’d say it’s insecurity…or a need to fill some void in their society. Afterall, if TPTB are going to ruin the whole ‘gift of life’ concept, it would be nice to see a little more depth here than just ’suck/puke/suck/puke/suck/puke - you’re my worshipper now!’.

Give reasons why they need to do this - tell us their side of the story, too. Ugh. Too many questions, not enough answers…it’s still…’grrr! I’m gonna suck you!’ without adding real depth of character. Yes, I know…he was trying to impress…but WHY did he need to? Was he under the same pressure to gain acceptance as Tyre was under?

You know…I’m going to go with that one. In my mind, Tyler Wraith had to jump through huge hoops to gain the approval of his own, just like Tyre was trying to jump through hoops to regain the Wraith’s approval. The Wraith only expected of Tyre what was expected of him. That would explain both how the hive treats their own (’no sympathy for the fallen’), and how they, in turn, treat humans. They are only dishing out to others what has already been dished out to them.

That makes sense to me, so I’m going with it. Otherwise, there would be no point to the Wraith in this story.



das

Klenotka
July 26th, 2008, 07:29 AM
Average episode - like most Ronon ´s episodes, I liked everything that didn´t concern Ronon :D Well, Jason was very good but I liked how the team worked around him.
I liked some parts more than episode as a whole.

Hmm, first of all, Rodney in the bathtube! Yummy! More, I want more! :D Why he couldn´t show us more :D

Teyla wasn´t annoying in a second episode in row and they really tried to work with her, which was fine.

Woolsey is great. I looked forward to him and I am not disappointed. It´s nice change after the no command in S4. How he stopped the team and Sheppard had to ask for permission - priceless. Finally someone told him that he has to wait for permission!

The final scenes with music, first, again, Rodney in a bathtube (yummy again), Woolsey in a tie, Sheppard taking the sword to Ronon...nice moments

I was little disappointed they didn´t use Rodney´s experience with the enzyme or at least could have mentioned it. I am sure McKay doesn´t have good memories and this could have triggered some bad feelings. But it also reminded me how Sheppard and the others didn´t care about Rodney in that episode where he overdosed so it is maybe better this way.

Hmm, and it looks that they actually can create some kind of story-arc when they don t try to write a story-arc. OK, not really a story-arc but some kind of connection, Teyla, Woolsey, showing events from previous episodes...

They could use more Lorne than just getting him out of a prison or him being a messanger.

But maybe it would be better if it made sense, this episode was a little chaotic, I think.

Linda06
July 26th, 2008, 07:31 AM
I took Sheps stance to be him trying not to guilt her into going and giving her the space to make the decision for herself. I wish my boss had been like that when i was pregnant with my 1st child - im glad i dont work there anymore :cool:

I thought he was kinda petulant......I thought he was upset that she was considering not rejoining the team and he took it out on her instead of being understanding at her predicament and supporting her.....Even Woolsey and Kanaan supported her and gave her time to make her decision whatever it may have been!

g.o.d
July 26th, 2008, 07:32 AM
boring rehash of SG-1 Threshold. what a waste of my time

jenks
July 26th, 2008, 07:33 AM
She can't expect him to notify her every time there's an incident though can she? I think what was frustrating him was that she was trying to have her cake and eat it.

Linda06
July 26th, 2008, 07:40 AM
She can't expect him to notify her every time there's an incident though can she? I think what was frustrating him was that she was trying to have her cake and eat it.

Yeah i understand that but this wasn't just any mission...It was Ronon and he's like a brother to her and she would do anything for him!

Jumper_One
July 26th, 2008, 07:51 AM
this was an amazing ep, everybody did a great job especially Jason M. Woolsey really surprised me, he was funny, intelligent and considerate. the scene where Shep had to ask permission to go off-world was so funny, poor Shep :P I also enjoyed the B plot, which was really well done. the talk between Tyre and Ronon might not have been necessary but it certainly showed one person's desperation and the other's commitment. Woolsey's office sure looks different, he's got books. OLD books! good thing I wasn't eating anything when Shep told Rodney I'm not taking a bath with you :P
um yeah also good to see Lorne again! nice scene where Teyla confronts Shep, he understand her predicament but can't wait forever for her to decide. anyway the feeding and withdrawal scenes were amazing, most likely due to Jason M's and MD's acting but the visual effects were also stunning imo. another great Woolsey moment’s when he's holding Teyla's child well well well who have we here? *baby cries* cafeteria! :D the next sequence was great (as was most of the ep): the fight, the team's struggle, Tyre's deal and his little talk with the Wraith. I can't really comment on Ronon's withdrawal process, just...wow! then we have the end with Woolsey changing into something more relaxed LOL, Teyla's official request to rejoin the team, Rodney taking a bath :eek: and a very nice character moment between Ronon and Shep. this was another great character ep and I'm looking forward to next week's team ep

Briangate78
July 26th, 2008, 07:55 AM
this was an amazing ep, everybody did a great job especially Jason M. Woolsey really surprised me, he was funny, intelligent and considerate. the scene where Shep had to ask permission to go off-world was so funny, poor Shep :P I also enjoyed the B plot, which was really well done. the talk between Tyre and Ronon might not have been necessary but it certainly showed one person's desperation and the other's commitment. Woolsey's office sure looks different, he's got books. OLD books! good thing I wasn't eating anything when Shep told Rodney I'm not taking a bath with you :P
um yeah also good to see Lorne again! nice scene where Teyla confronts Shep, he understand her predicament but can't wait forever for her to decide. anyway the feeding and withdrawal scenes were amazing, most likely due to Jason M's and MD's acting but the visual effects were also stunning imo. another great Woolsey moment’s when he's holding Teyla's child well well well who have we here? *baby cries* cafeteria! :D the next sequence was great (as was most of the ep): the fight, the team's struggle, Tyre's deal and his little talk with the Wraith. I can't really comment on Ronon's withdrawal process, just...wow! then we have the end with Woolsey changing into something more relaxed LOL, Teyla's official request to rejoin the team, Rodney taking a bath :eek: and a very nice character moment between Ronon and Shep. this was another great character ep and I'm looking forward to next week's team ep

Ronon's condition reminded me of Daniel Jackson back in "Need". I loved MS's performance and it just felt really great between Ronon and Sheppard. JM delivered and his expressions and emotions were just so real.

ALSO, THIS EPISODE WAS NOT PREDICTABLE. I still had to rewatch to see who actually cut off the Wraith's hand. Then i took a double take and said, oh wait Tyre is a good guy......that surprised me.

I also agree about the B plots with Teyla. Some nice drama between Sheppard and Teyla. She made the right decision.

So does anybody see that the first three eps really focused a lot on the team? Next week's ep looks like another great team episode.

Jumper_One
July 26th, 2008, 08:06 AM
Ronon's condition reminded me of Daniel Jackson back in "Need". I loved MS's performance and it just felt really great between Ronon and Sheppard. JM delivered and his expressions and emotions were just so real.

you're right, it's a similar condition but still very different imo. btw I still don't see how this ep's supposed to be a rehash of Threshold. different people, different conditions, a very different story etc


ALSO, THIS EPISODE WAS NOT PREDICTABLE. I still had to rewatch to see who actually cut off the Wraith's hand. Then i took a double take and said, oh wait Tyre is a good guy......that surprised me.

LOL yeah that's one aspect of it that was great imo. first Tyre's the bad guy, then he helps the team, only to betray them once they're in the Wraith facility... :S


I also agree about the B plots with Teyla. Some nice drama between Sheppard and Teyla. She made the right decision.

yeah she definitely made the right decision. I liked her interaction with Shep, I mean what's he supposed to do? he can't wait forever


So does anybody see that the first three eps really focused a lot on the team? Next week's ep looks like another great team episode.

the first three eps were major character eps which was great but I also want to see the team back in action ;)

Gibsnag
July 26th, 2008, 08:07 AM
I thought that this episode was pretty weak tbh.

The actual plot was boring and predictable (Oh, so you mean that Sheppard's trust wasn't misplaced? What a shocker!). The only thing that redeemed it slightly was the character interaction back on Atlantis, Woolsey is definitely turning out better than I had imagined.

Atlanis
July 26th, 2008, 08:14 AM
Increadable work form everyone conserned very powerful very emoational why doesn't Mister Girotti direct more of this type of ep's it was very well done and Ronon's turn to the "dark side" was eary he Mister Mamoa can play the dark side very well, and the "doped up" Ronon seemed to be more that Mister Mamoa in that sene and no Ronnon Dex not that I have met Mister Mamoa but watched in interviews!
Nice work to everyone

KindlyKeller
July 26th, 2008, 08:15 AM
I think Sheppard was a little frustrated because it reminded him of a similar circumstance when the initial pregnancy was discovered. But I think S&R established that their relationship is still strong, so I think it's just a blip on the radar.

pjt
July 26th, 2008, 08:18 AM
ALSO, THIS EPISODE WAS NOT PREDICTABLE. I still had to rewatch to see who actually cut off the Wraith's hand. Then i took a double take and said, oh wait Tyre is a good guy......that surprised me.


Then I must be old, but it was rather predictable for me. The second Tyre changed sides in the wraith facility there were only two options:
a. Tyre is acting
b. Ronon is acting
And a. was the more probable which proved to be the solution at the end. I speak only for myself, but it felt like script by numbers.

KindlyKeller
July 26th, 2008, 08:21 AM
I wouldn't say it was predictable for me necessarily. Maybe it would have been if I hadn't been so confused. The "Tyre was faking it" thing was very poorly realized, I thought, largely because -- as has been mentioned -- it was almost impossible to tell whether it was Tyre or Ronon who cut off the Wraith's hand. I was confounded by what had happened until Ronon was back on Atlantis, pledging his continued allegiance to the Wraith.

pjt
July 26th, 2008, 08:26 AM
-- it was almost impossible to tell whether it was Tyre or Ronon who cut off the Wraith's hand.

I saw it was Tyre. Also, that's why Ronon attacked him.

Linda06
July 26th, 2008, 08:29 AM
Then I must be old, but it was rather predictable for me. The second Tyre changed sides in the wraith facility there were only two options:
a. Tyre is acting
b. Ronon is acting
And a. was the more probable which proved to be the solution at the end. I speak only for myself, but it felt like script by numbers.

I knew that Tyre was faking too....And i didn't have to go back and watch the scene with the cutting off the hand because the first thing i thought was it was Tyre who cut his hand off!

KindlyKeller
July 26th, 2008, 08:32 AM
I saw it was Tyre. Also, that's why Ronon attacked him.

Yeah, I get that in retrospect. But at the time, I thought Ronon had done it, and was attacking Tyre simply because he was the enemy. When Teyla stunned Ronon, I was quite confused.

KindlyKeller
July 26th, 2008, 08:34 AM
I think a big part of the problem for me was that I didn't hear the "Tyre let us out" thing. I assumed that's what he was doing when he said to Shep and the Wraith "hold on a second," but then I was in viewer turmoil during the hand-cutting scene.

Oh, woe is me.

Anyway, doesn't matter. The resolution was a little underwhelming regardless.

Xamaxy
July 26th, 2008, 08:45 AM
Hi,

does anyone know the name off that classical piece at the end?

Thx!

jelgate
July 26th, 2008, 08:46 AM
I liked Keller in this ep :DOh and another thing......I didn't really like this wrsith very much!You disliked Bad Wig Wraith? What a shock:P

Cautious Explorer
July 26th, 2008, 08:47 AM
I think John was a bit harsh on Teyla...Everyone else seemed to understand her predicament but all John could do was chew her out...Even Woolsey was more understanding....I mean it wasn't like she was picking and choosing what missions she was wanna go on here.....Ronon is her friend,he's like a brother to her so of course she'd wanna do whatever it took to help him!

I think John was frustrated (as was I) that Teyla was hemming and hawing. He needs to have a team ready to go, not have to figure out who's up for each mission. I had the impression this had been going on for some time.


I think Sheppard was a little frustrated because it reminded him of a similar circumstance when the initial pregnancy was discovered. But I think S&R established that their relationship is still strong, so I think it's just a blip on the radar.

I agree. I really don't like the Teyla we've seen since season 4. She was always a decisive person, fairly outspoken in her opinions, direct. Now we have a Teyla who hides her thoughts in favor of throwing out hints for others to pick up on, or not. She doesn't seem to know her own mind anymore.

This did have shades of that earlier discussion and Teyla's line that bothered me to no end. "I tried to tell you many times". Since when did Teyla "try" to tell anyone anything, especially her teammates? Where did the articulate, confident Athosian leader go?

Now that the insufferable pregnancy arc is over, and after S&R, I thought we had the old Teyla back for good. No such luck. Teyla, stop hinting, spit it out, and find your back bone.

Linda06
July 26th, 2008, 09:02 AM
I think John was frustrated (as was I) that Teyla was hemming and hawing. He needs to have a team ready to go, not have to figure out who's up for each mission. I had the impression this had been going on for some time.


Well i wish they'd stop doing that.....Making weeks go by between eps........I get confused and i'm easily confused you know :S ;)

Cautious Explorer
July 26th, 2008, 09:11 AM
Well i wish they'd stop doing that.....Making weeks go by between eps........I get confused and i'm easily confused you know :S ;)

Agreed. Not only is it confusing, but it's a great way to shove a lot of what should be emotional moments under the rug. So far we have both Beckett and Teyla who were held in captivity for a prolonged period. No need to see their reactions to that. Keller, who doesn't seem terribly stoic to me, is all better after being nearly turned into an alien creation. All those messy emotional reactions are all over and dealt with during her recovery period that we skipped over.

And of course, don't forget how useful it is for that oh so popular "tell, don't show" mantra TPTB have.

BerrySciFi
July 26th, 2008, 09:26 AM
I wouldn't say it was predictable for me necessarily. Maybe it would have been if I hadn't been so confused. The "Tyre was faking it" thing was very poorly realized, I thought, largely because -- as has been mentioned -- it was almost impossible to tell whether it was Tyre or Ronon who cut off the Wraith's hand. I was confounded by what had happened until Ronon was back on Atlantis, pledging his continued allegiance to the Wraith.



We see a shot of a sword slicing off the Wraith's hand. Immediately after this happens, we see Ronan drawing his sword from its sheath (Zena-style). I don't see the confusion. Though it was apparent (to me, at least) that Tyre was going to double-cross the Wraith and also die at the end in a final act of penance, I feel that the scenes were still quite powerful.
Interesting episode. Didn't love it or hate it. I really liked Woolsey in this one (again). I enjoyed the character interactions, except for those involving our monotoned doctor. And what exactly was she thinking with her pausing, and pausing, and pausing, and slowly reading a word or two, and still more pausing, and next sentence, pause, wash rinse repeat? Keller could well have slipped through this episode unnoticed, except that her speech pacing was noticeably (and jarringly) different from the rest of the characters. This ultimately served to give the episode a strangely choppy feel.
Overall, I think there is much more to like in this episode than to dislike, so I give Broken Ties a 7 (the same score I gave The Seed last week, though I liked Broken Ties a little bit more than The Seed).
My enthusiasm for Season 5 is still strong. I just hope that the last two episodes were two of the weaker ones!

Cap116
July 26th, 2008, 09:57 AM
Very good episode! Making Woolsey more likely, and seeing Ronon and Tyr go at it with the swords was awesome. Enjoyed it!

aboleyn24
July 26th, 2008, 10:05 AM
I liked but didn't love this episode. It had some nice character moments so that elevated it for me.

Hated Ronon's wig. I wish they would just let him have his short hair. I also thought that was the worst Wraith ever. He didn't scare or creep me out. He just annoyed me. I also found the end too predictable. I knew the moment that Shep and Tyre had the detonator discussion was for Tyre to blow the place up and sacrifice himself. While I understand that they had to put this discussion in or otherwise folks would be screaming at how Tyre understood Earth technology, I found it to be way to heavy on the foreshadowing. There were only two reasons to include that discussion, one Tyre would double cross Shep and his team, two he would save the day. The second seemed much more likely so despite the attempt at making it seem ambiguous on whether or not Ronon or Tyre were faking their loyalty to the Wraith, I knew how this would end. Because they were trying so hard to not show which one was loyal to the Wraith and who to Atlantis I think they lost out on an opportunity to let Jason really go dark. I wanted to see that and they let it slip away. I did have a momentary confusion when for a split second I thought it was Ronon who cut off the hand but it became clear very quickly that it was Tyre who had done it.

The good stuff though was really good. Loved Shep and McKay's conversation and Shep saying he wouldn't take a bath with him. Too funny. Loved all the Woolsey and Teyla scenes. I am really enjoying Woolsey. I also enjoyed all the team angst over recovering Ronon.

As for my take on the Shep and Teyla discussion in the hall way. I don't have any problem with Shep. He was doing his best to understand her. He didn't want to put pressure on Teyla depite how much he wants her to remain a part of the team. Still he was keeping her spot open for her, but when something comes up he can not stop what he's doing to check and see if she is in or out. That is her responsibility. Not that I don't understand her indecision, as a mother I fully get it. But her choice shouldn't be Sheppards problem. Yes, he is her friend, but in this instance he is her boss and the two have to remain sort of separate. Yes, this was special as it was Ronon, but who is the say the next one won't be special too. You have to draw a line somewhere and Sheppard drew his and laid the choice at Teyla's feet where it belonged. Spot on team open, but while she was deciding, missions would go on without her. What else was he supposed to do and she was the one being unfair not to realize that.

Cautious Explorer
July 26th, 2008, 10:10 AM
I'm confused on whether or not the existence of Wraith worshippers is common knowledge in Pegasus or not. Teyla seemed to have gone her whole life without encountering any. Ronon didn't appear to have prior knowledge of them before he and the team ran across them in The Hive (even during his years as a runner). Yet, the Satedan the team questioned when looking for Ronon seemed to have the attitude of, "Oh yeah, he was a whorshipper kicked out by his masters."

I wondered too, why Tyre would even go back and make contact with other Satedans. I had the impression from Ronon that he should have been expecting nothing but contempt and would be extremely lucky they didn't kill him straight off once the guilty secret was out.

jelgate
July 26th, 2008, 10:12 AM
I'm confused on whether or not the existence of Wraith worshippers is common knowledge in Pegasus or not. Teyla seemed to have gone her whole life without encountering any. Ronon didn't appear to have prior knowledge of them before he and the team ran across them in The Hive (even during his years as a runner). Yet, the Satedan the team questioned when looking for Ronon seemed to have the attitude of, "Oh yeah, he was a whorshipper kicked out by his masters."I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that most of Wraith were sleeping before the events of Rising

starfox
July 26th, 2008, 10:23 AM
I've thought about it a little bit more, and here's the post on why I loved the Teyla & Woolsey parts of the story, and why I felt Ronon's was a bit lacking.

While I don't think every episode needs to portray Teyla's happy family, I do think it needed to be addressed here, specifically with regards to her coming back to the team. This was the first episode where we saw her going off-world since Torren's birth, so it's logical that this would be where her decision was made. I think it was also integral that the writers actually showed Teyla making the decision; having her magically be back on the team with just a quick mention that Kanaan was at home with the baby would have been a weak way of bringing her back in and would have cheapened the difficulty of the decision she made. Like I said previously, the Superhumanly Supportive Boyfriend definitely helped her out a lot in this regard, but having him or another Athosian take care of Torren was pretty much the only option, given that all of the Earth based Atlantis crew is busy with duties that wouldn't allow too much time for child care.

I found John's frustration completely believable, and I sympathized with him, though I would have sympathized more if we'd had a time frame, if we knew how long it had been since Torren's birth. Teyla may be his friend, but she's also a member of his team, and he needs his team to be ready to go. If Teyla had decided not to come back, then he would have needed to start working with a replacement. And John did say he'd support her, whatever decision he made. He didn't sound angry with her, he sounded frustrated. Scenes like this show how different John's background and Teyla's background are in some respects. Teyla's leadership style has traditionally been trade and diplomacy, with necessary fighting and self-defense thrown in. Teyla's also presumably had experience dealing with new Athosian mothers before, and that experience is likely completely different than this. She's in a situation she never anticipated or planned for; around the time she would have been making the decision of who would be the primary caregiver for her child, her people were still missing, and then she got kidnapped and couldn't even be 100% sure she and/or her child would survive the ordeal. While I'm sure John understands this, he's got a job to do. He's a man who favors immediate action, dealing with a new boss who likes to take things through the proper channels. Teyla wasn't on active duty. I know people not on active duty have been cleared for missions before, but unless I'm recalling incorrectly, those were special exceptions made due to specific skill sets or information, like Beckett in "The Seed" or McKay in "The Hive." Keeping Teyla in the loop would have been a good thing to do, due to her status on the expedition and her friendship with Ronon, but if she were thinking about making the maternity leave permanent so as not to leave Torren motherless, then this would be exactly the sort of high-risk mission John would expect her to skip. If Teyla hasn't been giving him any information, then he has no way of knowing which way the wind is blowing, and if Woolsey's been pressuring him to name a replacement, he needs that knowledge soon.

Which brings me to Woolsey. His sympathy pleased me, but didn't exactly surprise me. Someone of his level would have been forced to undergo sensitivity training at some point and therefore would probably know not to patronize Teyla or attempt to make any decisions for her. It also doesn't surprise me that he pushed John to name a replacement; from a rules and regulations point of view, if Teyla's going to take more than the absolute minimum of time making her decision to come back, then the team should probably have at least a temporary fourth. He was doing his job.

I liked that Woolsey got stuck, and that Woolsey's idea of comfort is a suit, classical music, and wine in his quarters. It showed that he finds comfort in the familiar, and that Atlantis is a very unfamiliar place for him. Weir helped shape the Atlantis expedition, and Carter's been an intrepid explorer for years. Woolsey is a guy who wears suits and likes rules and is really out of his element, and they're going to have to show him slowly becoming comfortable. I also liked the cut from Woolsey's quarters to Teyla's quarters, both of which were decorated in the styles of their respective homes. Those scenes, as well as the scene of Rodney in the tub, gave a nice Atlantis = home vibe, as well as showing what that means for each character.

---------------------

Now, on to why the Ronon storyline didn't do it for me. Jason's acting was fantastic, as was that of Mark Dacascos. The actors and the make-up team did a great job of presenting characters who were strung out and in need of a fix, and as I said previously, Jason gets the Best Withdrawal Portrayal award. I loved the cuts from Ronon to Tyre, drawing the parallel between their experiences. What made the storyline not work for me was the timing. We see John tellng Keller not to give painkillers so the withdrawal will go faster, but IIRC, we don't know exactly how long Tyre's in withdrawal, nor do we know how long it is between him coming out of it and the team arriving at the lab. Therefore we don't know how long it takes Ronon to turn. And we don't really get to see the effects of his turning. I would have preferred it if he had been made to rough up one of the Atlantis team; it would have given us a clearer view of how far gone he was, therefore raising the dramatic stakes. The acting was good and the fight scenes were good - I liked the Ronon-Tyre fight and yay for seeing McKay take out 3 Wraith - but the situation lacked a sense of urgency. Maybe if Tyre had given a guess as to whether or not Ronon would be turned, maybe if we saw more of Ronon's loyalty to the Wraith, I don't know. All I know is that the urgency was lacking for me.


--------------


That said, I loved this episode from a character perspective. Judging from this and "The Seed", I like the characters more than I have in the previous seasons and there's been a stronger thread of character storyline continuity. I hope things continue in this vein; I'm beginning to like these people again.

Cautious Explorer
July 26th, 2008, 10:40 AM
I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that most of Wraith were sleeping before the events of Rising

Goodl thought. They were more of a mysterious boogeyman that hit out of nowhere before that. I miss the more frequent world exploration from the earliest seasons. I was fascinated by the way various societies handled the Wraith threat (i.e. the Hoffans, the Geni, the planet in Condemned)

Lewisco
July 26th, 2008, 10:51 AM
boring rehash of SG-1 Threshold. what a waste of my time


<mod snip...you don't have to like or agree with the opinions of others, but you do have to respect them>

anyways, i thought it was a good episode. i liked the Teyla parts, showing her difficulty to come to a decision, and Woolsey was good in the episode to. Him and Teyla's discussing was a great scene. Jason Momoa's acting was great, and i enjoyed seeing Shepphard strict with Teyla. all in all, 8/10.

bluealien
July 26th, 2008, 10:57 AM
I think John was frustrated (as was I) that Teyla was hemming and hawing. He needs to have a team ready to go, not have to figure out who's up for each mission. I had the impression this had been going on for some time.

She had brought this up months ago and she is still indecisive after all this time, I'm also not at all surprised that John was frustrated.
I still don't really understand why Teyla even has a dilemma. She comes from a background where seemingly she has faced danger constantly and has indicated that nothing changes even while pregnant and assuming even after the child is born.. Athosian woman continue to play a big part in the community.. again I asume that also means defending it from hostiles and the Wraith. Would Teyla be thinking about keeping out of harms way if she was still with her people....



I agree. I really don't like the Teyla we've seen since season 4. She was always a decisive person, fairly outspoken in her opinions, direct. Now we have a Teyla who hides her thoughts in favor of throwing out hints for others to pick up on, or not. She doesn't seem to know her own mind anymore.
Again I have to agree. I didnt like the direction the ptb took Teyla in season 4 and hoped they would get her back on track in season 5 but this indecisive Teyla who doesn't seem to know her own mind anymore is truely disappointing me. Even her wet blanket lover was able to point out that she would still be making the place better and safer for her son.. and the baby has a father.. not like before when she thought she was the last of her people...


This did have shades of that earlier discussion and Teyla's line that bothered me to no end. "I tried to tell you many times". Since when did Teyla "try" to tell anyone anything, especially her teammates? Where did the articulate, confident Athosian leader go?
"I tried to tell you", was was pretty lame coming from Teyla.. how can you try and tell someone.. you either do or your don't ... and why does she always seem to take her anger out on John for the situation she has gotten herself into.. why did she snap at him because he didnt consult her ..she had just told him that she didnt know if she wanted to come back to the team.



Now that the insufferable pregnancy arc is over, and after S&R, I thought we had the old Teyla back for good. No such luck. Teyla, stop hinting, spit it out, and find your back bone.

I thought so too but sadly no and I don't think it's helping Teyla's character at all. I just hope she is not reduced to just mommy with conflicting feelings.

Pitry
July 26th, 2008, 11:06 AM
Bit of a shame they emphasis Sheppard's team and not the personnel of Atlantis - it coudl have been quiet an interesting arc for Teyla had she left the team (even temporarily) and tried finding a different arrangement, rather than have everything solved in one episode.

MerryK
July 26th, 2008, 11:06 AM
Again I have to agree. I didnt like the direction the ptb took Teyla in season 4 and hoped they would get her back on track in season 5 but this indecisive Teyla who doesn't seem to know her own mind anymore is truely disappointing me. Even her wet blanket lover was able to point out that she would still be making the place better and safer for her son.. and the baby has a father.. not like before when she thought she was the last of her people...

I love how people want her to be back to the way she was pre-baby...anyone who has had children or been around those who have had children know that permanent personality changes take place, sometimes small and sometimes large. If TPTB had done anything but what they are doing, I'd be calling them out for not understanding what pregnancy and motherhood do to women.

miniglik
July 26th, 2008, 11:06 AM
"Cor-NEL-ius, he can TALK!"

Ha! Totally.

Skydiver
July 26th, 2008, 11:14 AM
it wasn't horrible. Didn't get my attention like dr who had just an hour before. they're overplaying the bumbling aspec of woolsey...3 scenes a show is just a bit too much (the doors closing on him, the divorce story, him and the baby), tone it down a bit. It's not endearing it's kinda annoying

ronon's wig is just bad. if it was blond i'd wonder if he borrowed it from the shirley temple wardrobe collection :)

the whole addictive thing is a new aspect,but this was kinda Enemies/threshold without the Rite of Malsurran. I even had the ending pegged - tyre blowing himself up.

Not horrible, not boring, just there.

It's about what i would have expected for a Teal'c episode...the writers struggling to get into the mind of a warrior. It's not something they do well.

Briangate78
July 26th, 2008, 11:14 AM
I've noticed that the entire cast is getting nearly the same screentime this season so far. I think we got 3 team eps in a row with a 4th one on the way next week.

pjt
July 26th, 2008, 11:15 AM
I think a big part of the problem for me was that I didn't hear the "Tyre let us out" thing. I assumed that's what he was doing when he said to Shep and the Wraith "hold on a second," but then I was in viewer turmoil during the hand-cutting scene.


It was the 'they left with a wraith, but arrived without one' hint. ;)

Callie
July 26th, 2008, 11:19 AM
Help, quick, before I post the transcript! What is the "Tuesday" that Rodney refers to when he makes an excuse to go and get lunch and leave John and Teyla alone? I can't make it out.

Thanks!

Ugly Pig
July 26th, 2008, 11:29 AM
There was an SG1 episode long ago where Teal'c was captured by the Gouald and had to be rescued/unbrainwashed. This episode was just another retread, and not as good as its SG1 original either.

Give me a break. Seems this has become some sort of game to some of you people - "Which SG-1 episode can we accuse this week's episode to be a retread of"? Just because there are vaguely similar elements doesn't make it a "retread". What'll it be next week? "Hey, parallel universes? This is exactly the same as that one where Daniel goes through the quantum mirror and also exactly the same as the one were lots of alternate SG-1s come to the SGC! Yeah! What do I win?"

BTW, the SG-1 episode you're thinking of is 'Threshold' from season five and it bears no actual resemblance to 'Broken Ties' whatsoever.


storyline felt really rushed and i getting kind of sick of the characters getting into trouble and at the end of the episode all is merry.

Heh... welcome to episodic television.

KindlyKeller
July 26th, 2008, 11:30 AM
Bit of a shame they emphasis Sheppard's team and not the personnel of Atlantis - it coudl have been quiet an interesting arc for Teyla had she left the team (even temporarily) and tried finding a different arrangement, rather than have everything solved in one episode.

I don't think they could have made that work, and it really would have just felt -- in my opinion -- like they were dragging things out at the expense of the rest of the storytelling. I'm glad they addressed it, but one episode is more than enough for me.

KindlyKeller
July 26th, 2008, 11:32 AM
It was the 'they left with a wraith, but arrived without one' hint. ;)

Well, apparently I didn't even remember that Ford was in S & R, so I'm a bumbling fool wandering through my viewings, I guess. :)

bluealien
July 26th, 2008, 11:47 AM
I love how people want her to be back to the way she was pre-baby...anyone who has had children or been around those who have had children know that permanent personality changes take place, sometimes small and sometimes large. If TPTB had done anything but what they are doing, I'd be calling them out for not understanding what pregnancy and motherhood do to women.

I have 3 children and I am quite aware how they can make a difference in your life but they don't change your personality... well at least they didnt change mine.. my point was Teyla has already stated that things don't change amongst her people during pregnancy and I would think not even after. She would still have to face dangers if she was with her people and always face a risk of injury so why is this suddenly so different when she is on Atlantis and the child has a father.. its not like it would be an orphan if something happened to her.. if she was completely alone I could understand her indecision more..

miniglik
July 26th, 2008, 11:53 AM
Yeah, I get that in retrospect. But at the time, I thought Ronon had done it, and was attacking Tyre simply because he was the enemy. When Teyla stunned Ronon, I was quite confused.

I think that was poor editting, actually. I don't mind that you had to be really paying attention to notice that Sheppard and Tyre took out the clone Wraith on the way to see head Wraith, but it really should have been more obvious who cut the hand off.

pjt
July 26th, 2008, 11:53 AM
Help, quick, before I post the transcript! What is the "Tuesday" that Rodney refers to when he makes an excuse to go and get lunch and leave John and Teyla alone? I can't make it out.

Thanks!

I understood 'taquito tuesday'.

MerryK
July 26th, 2008, 11:57 AM
I have 3 children and I am quite aware how they can make a difference in your life but they don't change your personality... well at least they didnt change mine.. my point was Teyla has already stated that things don't change amongst her people during pregnancy and I would think not even after. She would still have to face dangers if she was with her people and always face a risk of injury so why is this suddenly so different when she is on Atlantis and the child has a father.. its not like it would be an orphan if something happened to her.. if she was completely alone I could understand her indecision more..

Her indecision started when she was unsure of Kanaan's situation, which makes perfect sense to me. Yes, pregnancy can change your situation very little if you have a supportive father, but without one? You're going to have to think about the changes then. And in this episode, she's just starting to get used to the idea of having a secure family, which is why there's a little more indecision before she realizes what she has to do.

(Three of my friends have made the change to motherhood, and two of them are amazingly changed in personality, and one has had her personality exaggerated. I'm not sure they even notice, though, as it happened fairly gradually over the pregnancy/early motherhood.)

Cautious Explorer
July 26th, 2008, 12:07 PM
She had brought this up months ago and she is still indecisive after all this time, I'm also not at all surprised that John was frustrated.
I still don't really understand why Teyla even has a dilemma. She comes from a background where seemingly she has faced danger constantly and has indicated that nothing changes even while pregnant and assuming even after the child is born.. Athosian woman continue to play a big part in the community.. again I asume that also means defending it from hostiles and the Wraith. Would Teyla be thinking about keeping out of harms way if she was still with her people....

I get the feeling TPTB have forgotten that Teyla is Athosian. They're trying to write Teyla (and now Kanaan) as if she's a typical suburban parent from Earth with similar career/family decisions. They would have written any other member of the expedition the same way, except for the fact that they would have been shipped back to Earth and stayed there until they decided to rejoin the team. What's in store next week, a difficult decision on how to redecorate Teyla's quarters to incorporate Kanaan's tastes? Maybe an argument over parenting styles? Thrilling stuff. :cool:




Again I have to agree. I didnt like the direction the ptb took Teyla in season 4 and hoped they would get her back on track in season 5 but this indecisive Teyla who doesn't seem to know her own mind anymore is truely disappointing me. Even her wet blanket lover was able to point out that she would still be making the place better and safer for her son.. and the baby has a father.. not like before when she thought she was the last of her people...

Teyla was the leader of her people for many years. She's used to making hard decisions, and used to looking at what's best for all. Suddenly she's lost that capacity with motherhood? And as you pointed out, the presence of a fully-functioning, dezombified Kanaan should make that decision all the easier.



"I tried to tell you", was was pretty lame coming from Teyla.. how can you try and tell someone.. you either do or your don't ... and why does she always seem to take her anger out on John for the situation she has gotten herself into.. why did she snap at him because he didnt consult her ..she had just told him that she didnt know if she wanted to come back to the team.

It goes back to the old 'I expect you to read my mind even though I'm sending out ambiguous signals" that they've been selling since season four. I hate it. It's not at all in Teyla's character IMO to hold back like that. She's not chatty or overly opinionated, but she's always been able to assert her views in the past. It should be second nature to her. It was her way of life as a leader for years and years.




I thought so too but sadly no and I don't think it's helping Teyla's character at all. I just hope she is not reduced to just mommy with conflicting feelings.

I know I sound very critical of Teyla. It's just that I'm so disappointed. This is not the character I came to know and like in prior seasons. I was hoping season four was an awkward situation that had to be endured until things got back to normal. Now I'm wondering if they will.


I love how people want her to be back to the way she was pre-baby...anyone who has had children or been around those who have had children know that permanent personality changes take place, sometimes small and sometimes large. If TPTB had done anything but what they are doing, I'd be calling them out for not understanding what pregnancy and motherhood do to women.

I know it sounds callous, but I'm not at all interested in Teyla's motherhood dilemmas. It all seems so mundane, and it feels to me like Teyla has lost all spark of anything interesting. She's so placid in dealing with Kanaan (she kind of treats him like her eldest child -- so patient and calming, as if he's a little slow); cooing and loving with the baby (which is sweet but uninteresting for me. I'd rather see Woolsey and his dog); courteous and unassertive with Woolsey (I didn't see any impassioned arguments that Kanaan et al should be released from the camp -- could have all happened offscreen in the weeks?days? prior to the domestic bliss of this episode).

As bluealien pointed out, Teyla has commented before that Athosian women remain active during pregnancy, face danger, etc. I'm not sure why we're seeing Teyla face the same dilemmas as a woman from Earth deciding whether or not to go back to work. She was raised in an entirely different world that quite possibly has an entirely different outlook on childrearing and the responsibilities of motherhood.


it wasn't horrible. Didn't get my attention like dr who had just an hour before. they're overplaying the bumbling aspec of woolsey...3 scenes a show is just a bit too much (the doors closing on him, the divorce story, him and the baby), tone it down a bit. It's not endearing it's kinda annoying

I actually found it endearing -- at least the dog part. But then, I have several four-legged babies had home, so I can sympathize. The doors and getting lost on the way to the cafeteria were a little bumbling, but understandable. And I give him points for not acting hysterical when she handed him the baby. He seemed like a natural with that.


ronon's wig is just bad. if it was blond i'd wonder if he borrowed it from the shirley temple wardrobe collection :)

LOL. :) I was wondering why I kept thinking of an old costume drama. Three Musketeers or an old Swashbuckler maybe.

starfox
July 26th, 2008, 12:08 PM
I have 3 children and I am quite aware how they can make a difference in your life but they don't change your personality... well at least they didnt change mine.. my point was Teyla has already stated that things don't change amongst her people during pregnancy and I would think not even after. She would still have to face dangers if she was with her people and always face a risk of injury so why is this suddenly so different when she is on Atlantis and the child has a father.. its not like it would be an orphan if something happened to her.. if she was completely alone I could understand her indecision more..

IIRC, Teyla's mother died when Teyla was a young child; perhaps she's trying to avoid putting her son through what she went through? Being a member of the Atlantis off-world team and actively walking into danger is a bit different than living your life on Athos and being prepared for danger should it come to you.

Shan Bruce Lee
July 26th, 2008, 12:10 PM
I don't get the confusion over who cut the Wraith's hand off, but that's just me I guess.

Skydiver
July 26th, 2008, 12:14 PM
it makes a difference. If ronon cut off his hand, then his later devotion to the wraith makes no sense. he wouldn't kill the holder of his 'fix'. If it was tyre, then it supports what we later found out, that tyre was redeeming himself for the good

I didn't watch it that closely, but one of the folks i watch with thought that it was ronon who'd cut off the hand.

g.o.d
July 26th, 2008, 12:18 PM
it makes a difference. If ronon cut off his hand, then his later devotion to the wraith makes no sense. he wouldn't kill the holder of his 'fix'. If it was tyre, then it supports what we later found out, that tyre was redeeming himself for the good

I didn't watch it that closely, but one of the folks i watch with thought that it was ronon who'd cut off the hand.

watch it again because it was Tyre, not Ronon

flynn1959
July 26th, 2008, 12:25 PM
Another good episode imo. I really wanted to hate Wollsey but find that imposible.:)

I loved Weir and didn't think I would be able to watch the show again without her but Woolsey has stepped in and filled the gaping hole she left - at least a little anyway.

After giving up on the show last season I find myself looking forward to new episodes. And I can't wait for the Daniel/Shanks two parter!

miniglik
July 26th, 2008, 12:44 PM
I get the feeling TPTB have forgotten that Teyla is Athosian. They're trying to write Teyla (and now Kanaan) as if she's a typical suburban parent from Earth with similar career/family decisions. They would have written any other member of the expedition the same way, except for the fact that they would have been shipped back to Earth and stayed there until they decided to rejoin the team. What's in store next week, a difficult decision on how to redecorate Teyla's quarters to incorporate Kanaan's tastes? Maybe an argument over parenting styles? Thrilling stuff. :cool:




Teyla was the leader of her people for many years. She's used to making hard decisions, and used to looking at what's best for all. Suddenly she's lost that capacity with motherhood? And as you pointed out, the presence of a fully-functioning, dezombified Kanaan should make that decision all the easier.



It goes back to the old 'I expect you to read my mind even though I'm sending out ambiguous signals" that they've been selling since season four. I hate it. It's not at all in Teyla's character IMO to hold back like that. She's not chatty or overly opinionated, but she's always been able to assert her views in the past. It should be second nature to her. It was her way of life as a leader for years and years.




I know I sound very critical of Teyla. It's just that I'm so disappointed. This is not the character I came to know and like in prior seasons. I was hoping season four was an awkward situation that had to be endured until things got back to normal. Now I'm wondering if they will.



I know it sounds callous, but I'm not at all interested in Teyla's motherhood dilemmas. It all seems so mundane, and it feels to me like Teyla has lost all spark of anything interesting. She's so placid in dealing with Kanaan (she kind of treats him like her eldest child -- so patient and calming, as if he's a little slow); cooing and loving with the baby (which is sweet but uninteresting for me. I'd rather see Woolsey and his dog); courteous and unassertive with Woolsey (I didn't see any impassioned arguments that Kanaan et al should be released from the camp -- could have all happened offscreen in the weeks?days? prior to the domestic bliss of this episode).

As bluealien pointed out, Teyla has commented before that Athosian women remain active during pregnancy, face danger, etc. I'm not sure why we're seeing Teyla face the same dilemmas as a woman from Earth deciding whether or not to go back to work. She was raised in an entirely different world that quite possibly has an entirely different outlook on childrearing and the responsibilities of motherhood.


Ironically, I never found Teyla the least bit interesting earlier in the show, but I do find some of her team-identity mom-identity issues moderately more entertaining (why does that have to be different than earth parents? why shouldn't the dilemma of whether to leave your child to do battle be universal?). Also more entertaining (for me) is when she doesn't necessarily communicate perfectly and with unwavering grace, and when she has moments of indecisions. So, I liked the scene between her and John. I hope she never returns to Perfect Teyla, who never does anything with any sort of emotional complication.

In my opinion, she's still the most boring character on the show. But at least she has a personality other than perfect sparkly warrior princess.

Linda06
July 26th, 2008, 12:59 PM
Agreed. Not only is it confusing, but it's a great way to shove a lot of what should be emotional moments under the rug. So far we have both Beckett and Teyla who were held in captivity for a prolonged period. No need to see their reactions to that. Keller, who doesn't seem terribly stoic to me, is all better after being nearly turned into an alien creation. All those messy emotional reactions are all over and dealt with during her recovery period that we skipped over.

And of course, don't forget how useful it is for that oh so popular "tell, don't show" mantra TPTB have.

Yeah i know....I'd like to see these struggles on screen too instead of it all happening off screen and then when the next ep comes along everyone is all hunkydorey!

morjana
July 26th, 2008, 01:34 PM
SGA - TV Squad: Review of 'Broken Ties' PLUS Poll:

http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=8639023&postcount=260

Cautious Explorer
July 26th, 2008, 01:38 PM
Ironically, I have never found Teyla the least bit interesting, but I do find some of her team-identity mom-identity issues moderately more entertaining (why does that have to be different than earth parents? why shouldn't the dilemma of whether to leave your child to do battle be universal?). Also more entertaining (for me) is when she doesn't necessarily communicate perfectly and with unwavering grace, and when she has moments of indecisions. So, I liked the scene between her and John. I hope she never returns to Perfect Teyla, who never does anything with any sort of emotional complication.

Sadly, she's still the most boring character on the show. But at least she has a personality other than perfect sparkly warrior princess.

Part of what I find intriguing about Teyla is the fact that she's not from Earth, and should (although it's rarely shown) have a different outlook and opinions from many in the expedition. She wasn't raised in suburbia, but in a world where too much technology could bring the notice of the Wraith, where the threat of attack by a viscious enemy was a given part of life. She was used to travelling to and trading with different worlds through the Stargate and was a woman comfortable with defending herself. I find that far more intriguing than Teyla's dilemma of whether or not she should sit in Atlantis minding the baby or continue to fight the Wraith and save the galaxy with her team. There's nothing wrong with Teyla wanting to focus on motherhood, I guess. I personally don't feel it suits her character. It's not really an aspect of life I'm all that interested in (I think the introduction of babies and parenting issues has ruined more than one good show). Of course, I'm not interested in seeing any of the guys become fathers and contemplate how they want to balance that with their current lifestyles either.

I agree with the bolded portion. I loved the scene where she argued with John. I loved it when she and John argued about priorities in LFP in season one, or when she decked Bates. Teyla losing her temper is definately not a bad thing. Teyla "with unwavering grace" all the time is a bad thing in my book too. But that's all I'm seeing in Teyla on the mommy track. Other than a rare show of temper, grace, patience and a serene demeanor are all Teyla's been presenting. Momentary indecision I can understand. Teyla with all the answers and no doubts would be very boring. But she's been a leader most of her life. I think at this point she's learned to make a choice, for better or worse, rather than dither back and forth for months. That, I find odd.

I don't want to see Teyla know the perfect thing to say and the perfect way to say it all the time. That makes her seem fake. On the other hand, suddenly not voicing any opinions at all, waiting for others to anticipate and somehow intuit what she wants them to understand is not doing anything for her character either. A passive, indecisive, non-vocalizing Teyla with a veneer of endless patience and calm is totally unappealing to me.

marielabbott
July 26th, 2008, 01:49 PM
I liked that they dealt with Teyla's decision whether to rejoin the team. And they actually showed Kanaan, which was a pleasant surprise, though his cheesy line about following your heart or some such platitude made me roll my eyes. I can accept Teyla's difficult decision after seeing her struggle with it a bit. I am glad they did not simply gloss over it.

Ronon. The implacable Wraith hater becomes a Wraith worshipper. I understand there was a chemical element (shades of Ford :S), but I would've liked to have seen even more resistance on his part. Maybe there was a time reference that I missed, but it looked like the not-very-scary Wraith broke him in a few hours of "giving him the gift of life." Considering Ronon's experiences and hatred for the Wraith, it felt rather anti-climatic to see him kneel before one. I think they needed to make that moment more terrifying for me to believe it. Instead they chose to focus more drama on Ronon's withdrawl scenes. Which were great, but I just wished for more Ronon breaking scenes, because that's where I felt more of the drama should have been--Ronon becoming something he most definitely is not, not his recovery.

But I did like the recovery sequence, with all of Sheppard's team there. I especially liked it that Rodney was there babbling on when Ronon finally came to. :)

I thought Woolsey had a decent start in the last couple episodes, and for parts of this one (arguing with Sheppard, talking with Teyla), but I didn't like the comedy overkill of the doors and the baby. I understand the character has a comedic bent, but I thought the Yorky reference was enough for one episode. I hope this is not the beginning of a trend. :S

Also nice to see Lorne, though unfortunately he didn't get to do much. Will we ever learn about his team...maybe someday?

An OK episode, much stronger than the first two, in my opinion.

miniglik
July 26th, 2008, 01:51 PM
Cautious Explorer,
I get what you're saying, I don't find baby storylines all that interesting in scifi either. BUT, since Rachel Lutrell was so very obviously pregnant last season, and the baby is part of the plot -- I'm glad the baby was addressed in a fairly mature manner, instead of making it immediately disappear and never spoken of again. Or instead of not addressing the fact that Teyla would have to make the decision to leave the baby behind while she fights. It's a step up for these writers.

Now, of course, it can go ahead and not be part of the plot for a looooong time again. Because he was addressed.


On the other hand, suddenly not voicing any opinions at all, waiting for others to anticipate and somehow intuit what she wants them to understand is not doing anything for her character either. A passive, indecisive, non-vocalizing Teyla with a veneer of endless patience and calm is totally unappealing to me.

I don't get that she's suddenly not voicing her opinion all the time. I think the only times I noticed where 1) not telling the team she was pregnant, and 2) stalling on whether or not she was coming back to the team. But she strikes me as a very private person, and I thought those were pretty natural instincts. She certainly was assertive with everyone in the Seed and Rodney, Kanaan, and Michael in S&R. (As well as various people in the The Kindred.)

Mekarri
July 26th, 2008, 02:20 PM
I was ready to hate Woosley. But I really like his charcter. I enjoyed this ep. But what did they do to Ronon hair? It looked terrible.

Lahela
July 26th, 2008, 02:29 PM
<snippage>

Ronon. The implacable Wraith hater becomes a Wraith worshipper. I understand there was a chemical element (shades of Ford :S), but I would've liked to have seen even more resistance on his part. Maybe there was a time reference that I missed, but it looked like the not-very-scary Wraith broke him in a few hours of "giving him the gift of life." Considering Ronon's experiences and hatred for the Wraith, it felt rather anti-climatic to see him kneel before one. I think they needed to make that moment more terrifying for me to believe it. Instead they chose to focus more drama on Ronon's withdrawl scenes. Which were great, but I just wished for more Ronon breaking scenes, because that's where I felt more of the drama should have been--Ronon becoming something he most definitely is not, not his recovery.

But I did like the recovery sequence, with all of Sheppard's team there. I especially liked it that Rodney was there babbling on when Ronon finally came to. :)

<snippage>

This touches on what is my one problem with the ep - by trying to do so much, they didn't do enough. Sure, the Teyla story was important, as was the Woolsey finding his way in Atlantis story (which I do think was a story apart from Teyla's), as was the Tyre story and the Sheppard story... but it meant that each of them had very limited time devoted to them and they were all the weaker for it. IMO, of course ;)

jenks
July 26th, 2008, 02:33 PM
Not to be mean .... but apparently so.

Apparently not. We've established that Ronon was never immune, it was an inaccurate assumption on the part of the fans if anything.

starfox
July 26th, 2008, 02:52 PM
This touches on what is my one problem with the ep - by trying to do so much, they didn't do enough. Sure, the Teyla story was important, as was the Woolsey finding his way in Atlantis story (which I do think was a story apart from Teyla's), as was the Tyre story and the Sheppard story... but it meant that each of them had very limited time devoted to them and they were all the weaker for it. IMO, of course ;)

I agree. I loved the Teyla aspects and the Woolsey scenes, but I would have been okay with spreading those out between last episode and this one if it meant exploring the Ronon-conversion further. The violation and betrayal and torture of the conversion had so much unexplored potential.

This actually could have made a decent two-part episode, with Ronon's conversion and an exploration thereof in part 1, more exploration, rescue and withdrawal in part 2. Maybe not, though; Atlantis tends to reserve two-parters with episodes with larger season plot-arc implications.

Cautious Explorer
July 26th, 2008, 02:52 PM
I don't get that she's suddenly not voicing her opinion all the time. I think the only times I noticed where 1) not telling the team she was pregnant, and 2) stalling on whether or not she was coming back to the team. But she strikes me as a very private person, and I thought those were pretty natural instincts. She certainly was assertive with everyone in the Seed and Rodney, Kanaan, and Michael in S&R. (As well as various people in the The Kindred.)

Those are the two biggest examples. They just felt out of character to me. I understand keeping some things private -- she's not like Rodney. But I guess the whole revelation of the secret relationship with Kanaan and then the reluctance to reveal her pregnancy, along with the claim that she had tried many times to tell them, I don't know, to me it looked like she was being secretive about something that it would be natural to share with people who are extremely close to you. It just didn't sit right.

Hopefully we'll get more of the Teyla from S&R, and a lot less Teyla/Torrin/Kanaan. I'm not at all interested.

Lord batchi ball
July 26th, 2008, 03:02 PM
ok here's what I think.

MOst of the episode seemed to be missing somthing, I belive it was emotion or somthing. I liked the fact that Woosly made sheppard ask for permision, instead of just acting on a impulse like most of sheppards descions. I'm still confused of who is really in command, Woosly or Shep. Like I stated last week the writers need to tone down Joe's character, it makes the whole show very confusing, like a band of rebels instead of a actual military outfit.

I was kind of hoping woosly would be more like hammand, he dictates all policy and while he listens to those under his command he and he alone makes the decison. I don't blame Robert for Wooslyies inability to assert command, but the writers, with a character that is so shallow the actor is very limited.

Most of the scenes with woosly in it lacked emotion of any kind (at least what I could pick up). The one scene that had somthing in it was Shep telling Teyla what was up. She came out there like she was going to kick some ass and left in a daze. That was great.

And what was up with the christmas music at the end? I was waiting for the man in the red suit but he never came.

starfox
July 26th, 2008, 03:03 PM
But I guess the whole revelation of the secret relationship with Kanaan and then the reluctance to reveal her pregnancy, along with the claim that she had tried many times to tell them, I don't know, to me it looked like she was being secretive about something that it would be natural to share with people who are extremely close to you. It just didn't sit right.

I guess it begs the question of how she interpreted the events. I would keep an unplanned pregnancy to myself as long as possible or necessary, but that's just me. I can understand the desire to keep the Kanaan relationship to herself; it's not unusual to refrain from mentioning a relationship until you're 100% sure you're serious, even among close friends.

That said, I think this episode gave the writers a nice way to shut the door on that part of the Teyla storyline. We may see her carrying Torren around the city every now and then, but for the most part, I think he'll be with Kanaan. Maybe in a couple of seasons Kanaan will get tired of being a stay-at-home dad and a gate-widower and the family aspect will be brought up again. But for now, I think baby and daddy will fade into the background.

GateofDOOM
July 26th, 2008, 03:04 PM
The episode would've been better served if it was a two parter.

Even though it was pretty predictable the story was interesting enough that they could have stretched it out for another forty minutes without the story looking like it was...stretched.
As it is all the real character drama in regards to Ronon and Tyre is watered down because there wasn't enough time to explore this subject properly. In a two parter we could've seen even more from Teyla as well.


And that wraith guy was just not the greatest ever.

The guy who played Tyre would've blown me out of the water if he'd had more screen time (and didn't have to play off that horrible wraith guy).

bluealien
July 26th, 2008, 03:06 PM
Those are the two biggest examples. They just felt out of character to me. I understand keeping some things private -- she's not like Rodney. But I guess the whole revelation of the secret relationship with Kanaan and then the reluctance to reveal her pregnancy, along with the claim that she had tried many times to tell them, I don't know, to me it looked like she was being secretive about something that it would be natural to share with people who are extremely close to you. It just didn't sit right.

Hopefully we'll get more of the Teyla from S&R, and a lot less Teyla/Torrin/Kanaan. I'm not at all interested.

Me neither. I loved the Teyla in Search and Rescue and hoped the awful baby arc was done with once and for all, but sadly we have to put up with it all season, and mommy Teyla does not interest me in the slightest.


Other than the Teyla/Kanaan/Torren stuff I really enjoyed this ep. Jason was great and I really love the Ronon/Sheppard dynamic. Tyre was great and Mark did a fantastic job with the character and I was sad to see him die. I liked Woolsey here as well but hope that the team don't walk over him to much. He doesn't seem to have a whole lot of authority at the moment but I can't help warming to him..

kymeric
July 26th, 2008, 03:12 PM
Wow quite the episode.

Tyre and especially Ronins withdrawl was particulary poignant to me, withdrawl @[email protected]#$% sucks.

The wraith base looked beautiful. The CGI keeps getting better and better, someone had better give these guys an emmy asap.

Woolsey was understated but still a presence. Hes fitting in quite well.

Teylas come along way from season one. I like T&K's relationship and presence in the city. Have we ever seen such a healthy relationship on tv? Usually couples fight and cheat and scheme. Glad to finally have one to look up 2.

I still cant tell the diff between Ronins wig and his hair last season, guess im not much of a hair-ologist. XD Tyres pretty badass for staying behind and killing everyone. Those wacky statedans.

Nice hand choppage. I like the new wraith adds another face to the race, i guess he plays a different roll.

On episode three and its shaping up 2 b a good season!

Womble
July 26th, 2008, 03:36 PM
So I've watched the latest episode, and I'm a bit puzzled at some things:

1) Since when does Teyla wander around Atlantis with her uniform unzipped all the way down to her waist? That wasn't the case before, as far as I recall. Not that I mind getting a glimpse of a pretty woman's cleavage, but it feels like an attempt to sexualize her, and that doesn't go well with the character.

2) Since when do the Wraith die of a slash wound from a sword? They used to be able to take fifty rounds from a P90 and keep on going, now you just poke them with a sharp stick and they drop. Can you hear that faint moan somewhere in the background? That's my suspension of disbelief dying in a terrible agony.

3) Speaking of Atlantis uniforms- does anyone else hate the design?

On the bright side, though, great job on Woolsey's character. Apparently, when they really want to develop a character, they can.

starfox
July 26th, 2008, 03:42 PM
The unzipped uniform didn't bother me; if it was an attempt at sexualization, it was less blatant than the v-necked crop top she's worn around the base in other episodes. She actually looked very professional here. And she is presumably still breast-feeding; maybe the unzipped jacket's just one less step in getting her hungry child to his dinner.

I actually buy a Wraith going down from a sword wound easier than I buy going down from a gunshot. If we assume they are so hard to kill because of their regenerative capabilities, then an action that severs internal organs before they can heal would probably do more damage than one that just pokes holes in them.

Ltcolshepjumper
July 26th, 2008, 03:43 PM
The Wraith didn't die, and yes, they have been weakening the Wraith since season 2. And, I like the uniforms, mainly on Teyla though:)

Pegasus_SGA
July 26th, 2008, 04:06 PM
Ok so Peggy's 5 cents on the eppy. For those keeping score Tyre saved the team. ;)

*cough*

Moving swiftly on.....

I've always enjoyed learning about the Satedan's and honour and for me this ep was no exception. Jason blew this one out of the park!!! But i'll come to that later. The first scenes with Teyla and Ronon were lovely, I really got a sense of friendship with those two and it was nice to see some casual conversations between them.

The Tyre pops up and captures Ronon, bad Tyre, betraying your friend like that. I loved the way MD played the character, broken, but still trying to find respect from an old friend... even if it was through unconventional means. :lol: Then Ronon's talk on friendship and honour. It really tugged at my heart strings and gosh darn it, I knew I should have gone and gotten tissues at that point. :o I loved the feeding... as starnge as that sounds, and Ronon's continued defiance. Then back on Atlantis when they learn Ronon is missing and the conference scene with Shep having to ask permission to go off world and Woolsey's not so subtle *cough* :lol: Loved it, i'm sure Shep got his own back though by using his ATA gene and locking him in. *giggles*

Then the scenes between Teyla and Shep, some really great stuff for Rachel to get her teeth into, and I really enjoyed seeing some of that fighting spirit in her that seemed to be missing for the last couple of seasons [save: Missing/SoW] I loved their little spat, and the hard decisions she had to make. :D Great stuff.

I laughed my ass off at the Shep/McKay scenes in the cafeteria... the whole 'I'm not getting into the bath with you!' :lol: :lol: :lol:

Then there was poor Ronon losing the fight, and what I found really interesting was the correlation happening on the planet and in the med bay, as Tyre was getting better, Ronon started losing the fight... and the smile on the Wraith made me want to slap him upside the head. :lol:

The scenes with Shep and the team rescuing Ronon, and Ronon punching Shep on the noes and Tyre's 'betrayal' I loved the expressions in this, and the continuity of finding a Satedan to help them find Ronon. Brilliant.

I would have loved to have seen more scenes between Ronon and Shep to be honest. While I adored the ones we had, I was kinda hoping for more, and that pleading look Shep gave Ronon. :sheppardanime32:And Tyre giving up his life to repay a debt of gratitude... with that simply head nod, you knew what Tyre's intentions were.

What can I say about Ronon's withdrawl scenes apart from the fact that I think I missed half of them by crying. :lol: The team luff, character moments, and caring, this is for me what it's all about. Jason did a fantastic job of playing strung out and on withdrawl, you could tell that he put his heart and soul into this eppy, and he really knocked it out of the park!! Kudos to Jason for that. And the scene with Rodney talking to him about nothing, bless his little cotton socks... who says they're not friends. ;) But the end scene with Shep and Ronon and the laying of the sword... ok so I cried again. No words were necessary, just a simple look and gesture said so much. Loved loved loved it. :D Did I mention I loved it? :P

Great jokes in here, great continuity, character moments. Fabby job, and the scene with Shep and the coffee cup? :lol: I nearly peed myself laughing... ok too much information there, but you catch my drift. I'm enjoying Woolsey, and liked the little bit of conflict we saw in this, i'm hoping for more, or dare I say, much more... Oh I knew i'd forget something!! Opera. :lol: I don't know if that's an RP thing, although he does sing opera. ;) Or was that a nod at Voyager fans? :D

Amalthea
July 26th, 2008, 04:22 PM
Another fantastic season 5 ep! I am thrilled! I loved it!

I am so glad they showed Teyla's uncertainty as to what to do about working to staying home with the baby. It's the problem faced by so many working mothers, I applaud the writers handing it with such consideration. I think Kanaan will make a lovely househusband!

I loved angry, defiant Ronon. He was so fantastic in this one, my hat is of to Jason. From how he struggled to stay himself to the fight scene against Tyre to his rehab stint in isolation, he was brilliant and believable.

Tyre getting a little redemption is nice, too. It's too bad the other Satedans didn't have the same opportunity.

Concerned McKay was also wonderful to see. He didn't say much, but his body language spoke volumes about how much he cares for all the members of the team. Of course, he was classic McKay when he ran away fast from the upcoming Shep-Teyla confrontation, but I couldn't blame him and Keller there.

Last, there is Woolsey. I adore him. I love how he made John ask for permission to go, since I have often felt it has been too understood that the team just goes and does whatever on Atlantis without consulting a superior. It was better with Sam in charge, but only just barely. There was much more asking of permission of Hammond in SG1. And of course, Woolsey's suit being "more comfortable" is classic. However, I have to say, I really think he did look more comfortable! Especially compared to when he was in Atlantis gear holding the baby or trying to make those doors open! LOL

Bring on next week! :)

Ugly Pig
July 26th, 2008, 04:41 PM
We've established that Ronon was never immune, it was an inaccurate assumption on the part of the fans if anything.

It's been established alright... About a million times already, right here in this thread. And still people keep missing that point. How??

Shan Bruce Lee
July 26th, 2008, 05:01 PM
it makes a difference. If ronon cut off his hand, then his later devotion to the wraith makes no sense. he wouldn't kill the holder of his 'fix'. If it was tyre, then it supports what we later found out, that tyre was redeeming himself for the good

I didn't watch it that closely, but one of the folks i watch with thought that it was ronon who'd cut off the hand.

That's the part I don't get. I didn't see anything to suggest it was Ronon.

kot815
July 26th, 2008, 06:04 PM
I just got back from vacation today and couldn't catch this ep. Can someone please give me a short run-through of what happened?

SG-Lover-SL
July 26th, 2008, 06:22 PM
Liked the episode...

Ronon episodes are generally good. This was no exception.

Ronon's horror,...Real horror :eek:
Tyre's arc
Teyla + Baby + Kanan and the decision with team
Woolsey ummm.......oh well... :D

Wraith episodes bring a bit of horror/spookiness...Symbolized SGA in Season-1.

All in all decent ep...

Killdeer
July 26th, 2008, 06:26 PM
Overall, I enjoyed this episode much more than last week's, even though I went into it with pretty low expectations. It dragged in places, and I have a few nitpicks, but...overall a solid team episode. I made notes the second time I watched, so here they are. Although I still think I missed some things. Anyway.

I loved the beginning scene with Ronon and Teyla walking in the woods. I always enjoy these two together, and their playful teasing of each other. It was very cute Ronon wanting to harass Kanaan, and Teyla having none of it. And I loved her comment about him stunning Dr Garrett at his surprise birthday party. :lol: I can just see that. And Ronon, no breaking my boyfriend, or I will hurt you! :D

I didn't so much like Teyla standing there helplessly while Tyre took Ronon down. She didn't have a weapon with her? And even if not, we've seen this woman make weapons out of sticks before. But she just stands there and lets Tyre stun her. Argh. *headdesk* I hate it when they do something like this to advance the plot. On the bright side, she did look very pretty in her closeup.

Woolsey's comment about the Daedalus scanning for Ronon's transmitter. Either it's been around six weeks since The Seed, or the Daedalus never left, which makes John's crash and burn solution to last week's problem even more questionable.

Interesting note - Teyla (and maybe Ronon) did apparently 'fess up about at least some parts of their mission in Trinity.

I loved Woolsey's cough when they all jumped up and started leaving. Sheppard obviously doesn't like it, but he chokes the request out finally. :D And Woolsey lets him hang a moment before letting him off the hook. That was very well played.

Teyla hasn't asked to return to the team, and Woolsey isn't going to let it go. It has to be by the book. Nice reactions from both Sheppard and Rodney here.

I loved Woolsey getting locked in the conference room! I have to wonder if this was Sheppard's little payback for making him ask.

The part with Ronon and Tyre and the wraith dragged for me. Jason put in a great performance, but this just wasn't all that interesting. :S

Teyla and Woolsey's first conversation - it must not have been that long since Woolsey arrived, if he's still unpacking. Teyla's look when Woolsey mentioned his Yorkie. :D I wonder if pets are a concept very well understood in Pegasus.

Nice scene with Rodney and Sheppard (Rodney's so worried he's skipping food! :eek:)- and yay for Lorne. Poor Lorne, he's having to break in a new team. :S (remembering S&R) And the "I'm not taking a bath with you" comment - *snerk*

Another great scene was the walkandtalk with Sheppard, Keller, and McKay, with Teyla running up. And I loved Rodney and Jen suddenly deciding to check out lunch! :lol: John's facial expressions through this whole scene are very very interesting. I'm completely in sympathy with John here, although I'm not unsympathetic to Teyla's situation. But it's not fair for her to lay into John because she hasn't made up her mind. John's not a man to crawl, and he's not going to go begging to Teyla every time they go on a mission. He swallowed his pride and did it once in SoW, but it's not fair to keep expecting that of him.

I loved the scene with Teyla and the baby and Kanaan. Which surprised even me because the Teyla&baby scene in The Seed didn't do much for me. One of my wishes last year was that both Kanaan and the child would survive and live on Atlantis with Teyla, but I never ever expected it to happen. I fully expected them to kill Kanaan off in S&R, so many points to the writers for completely surprising me here. And dezombified Kanaan is surprisingly sweet - I can see why Teyla would have fallen for this guy, and he seems like someone who might be good for her, if he can find his place.

One of the things they've never done with a Stargate main character is to let them have a family. Many other shows have characters with husbands or wives who are mostly-offscreen but appear now and then to give us a better picture of the character's homelife. But Stargate's never done that. Even with Teal'c, he and his wife were essentially divorced from S2 onward. So I applaud this effort with Teyla and Kanaan, I like it so far, and I hope the writers continue to go this direction with them. And I like the concept of Kanaan being the one staying home taking care of the baby and Teyla being the working mother going off to battle. :) That's a concept totally unique to sci-fi shows in my experience (and indeed even to most mainstream shows), and if they can pull it off and not kill Kanaan off here in a few episodes in a fit of cliche, I think it would be wonderful for the show and for Teyla's character. I think seeing her with someone from her own people, someone not from the team, helps give some more insight on who she is as an Athosian, and not simply as a member of Sheppard's team.

I'm not sure how John was so sure that Tyre wasn't leading them into a trap - I thought Woolsey had a good point. Teyla handing her baby off to Woolsey and then running to gear up was a great scene - she made her decision at that point I think. Woolsey with the baby was great! I loved this scene, with him first trying to talk to the baby, and then getting lost in the halls.

Why didn't Sheppard end up with any marks from the punch in the nose?

"What would be really creepy and unexpected is if you knelt instead." :D I was actually kind of expecting a scene where the Wraith try to force Ronon to kill one of his team, though. And was a little disappointed that it didn't happen.

Cutting the hand off - I always wondered what would happen to a wraith if you did that. Actually I'm still wondering. Theoretically, had he lived, would he have grown another hand, or would he have died because he couldn't feed?

The sword fight was great, and Sheppard shooting two handed on his knees. ;) I liked that Teyla seemed to be leading the rescue charge, stunning Ronon (3x) before ordering Lorne's team forward.

I liked the reference to the hive rivalries.

The moment when Tyre gave the sword to Sheppard was a strong one - Sheppard knew exactly what he was going to do. And the music, and Tyre flipping the switch.

I think one of the reasons I liked this episode is that it didn't exactly have a traditional structure. Usually once the team wins the fight and flies away, the episode's pretty much over. Here it isn't. They still have to go through Ronon's withdrawal, and these scenes were some of the best. Jason did a great job here. I know a lot of people have said that this reminds them of Teal'c's brainwashing, but actually it reminded me more of Daniel's sarcophagus addiction in Need. I loved it that the team was always there with him, either watching from above, or sitting by his bedside. I wish a little bit that we'd seen Rodney make referance to coming down off his own enzyme addiction in The Hive, but having Ronon wake up with him there was still awesome. And I liked the reference to Rodney's early piano ambitions. :) I loved how happy he was that Ronon was better. :)

Loved Sheppard's coffee grimace, and Woolsey's hesitancy with the doors. :lol:

Woolsey's quarters are pretty nice! This last scene with Woolsey and Teyla was very well done. Teyla's made her decision, and she's at peace with it. I like how Woolsey handled it. And relaxed for Woolsey is a nice suit, a glass of wine, and classical music. I like the music, and that they played it through the entire last montage. Which was great, Teyla returning home to Kanaan and their baby-very sweet, Rodney falling asleep in the tub and waking inspired :lol:, John visiting Ronon, and giving him Tyre's sword. Very effective.

I think overall it was a good episode. But it did drag for me in parts, which I've already noted. And I thought Tyre's conversion was a little too quick and convenient. But my biggest problem with the episode is something that I worried about when it was first announced. Ronon's hatred of the wraith is so deeply established and so much a part of who he is that I said back then that they would have to take it pretty far to convince me that he'd been broken. And I don't think they did. Addiction and brainwashing aren't necessarily the same things, and while Ronon could have become addicted to the enzyme through the reverse feeding, I find it harder to believe that he would get over his hatred and swear loyalty to the Wraith so easily. Maybe if we'd seen a few scenes of the Wraith working on him by withholding the feeding, and eventually breaking him to where he begged for it, it would have been easier to buy - I don't know. It was a pretty packed episode, so I can see that they might not have had time for it, but still. That part didn't work for me as far as believability, in spite of Momoa's fantastic performance.

One thing I want to add - I think Robert Picardo is doing a fantastic job, and I'm loving his character a lot more than I thought I was going to. Carter grew on me over the course of last season, and I thought she did a great job in S&R, but many times, especially in the first half of the season, I thought she ended up coming across as Weir-lite. Woolsey is such a completely different character from both of them, and I'm enjoying that (not that I don't still miss Elizabeth). It doesn't feel like someone's simply sliding into the same role and saying the same lines.

Oh and my last note (I think) - I really really wish they'd let Jason go without the wig. I think Ronon without the dreads would have been fine, and I wish we could have seen that scene of him cutting his hair.

kymeric
July 26th, 2008, 06:27 PM
Forgot to add: I love the interiors! The set guys are really earning their paycheck. Every room looks fresh and different. Did they build more room sets? I like how theres earthling tech everywhere. Kinda like a office in the not too distant future.

Rac80
July 26th, 2008, 06:36 PM
The episode would've been better served if it was a two parter.

Even though it was pretty predictable the story was interesting enough that they could have stretched it out for another forty minutes without the story looking like it was...stretched.
As it is all the real character drama in regards to Ronon and Tyre is watered down because there wasn't enough time to explore this subject properly. In a two parter we could've seen even more from Teyla as well.


And that wraith guy was just not the greatest ever.

The guy who played Tyre would've blown me out of the water if he'd had more screen time (and didn't have to play off that horrible wraith guy).

ITA, a two parter could have had more depth to the "A" story, which I felt it needed.

Skydiver
July 26th, 2008, 07:46 PM
the question has still nto been answered

DEX: I was captured during a culling on my planet. I was taken to a
ship. A Wraith started to feed on me.

FLASHBACK. As the Wraith stands with its hand plunged into Dex's
chest, its _expression changes and it looks perturbed. It looks down
to its hand.

DEX: Something made him stop.

--

what made it stop? was it wraith self control or was there a biological reason?

there is also the track record of these writers, who have been known to rewrite canon to facilitate an episode.

JohnDuh
July 26th, 2008, 08:02 PM
"But, umm... can someone explain to me how they got around the fact that the whole reason Ronon was a runner was because the Wraith can't feed on him?"
It's called "I've got a great story idea, so let's throw continuum out the window!" . Or they have really bad plot-editors that couldn't catch that.

Actually it's called "fans making up things never said"

Amalthea
July 26th, 2008, 08:14 PM
the question has still nto been answered

DEX: I was captured during a culling on my planet. I was taken to a
ship. A Wraith started to feed on me.

FLASHBACK. As the Wraith stands with its hand plunged into Dex's
chest, its _expression changes and it looks perturbed. It looks down
to its hand.

DEX: Something made him stop.

--

what made it stop? was it wraith self control or was there a biological reason?

there is also the track record of these writers, who have been known to rewrite canon to facilitate an episode.

Wow... I have no recollection of that what so ever. Time for a rewatch to assess all facial expressions!

Lord batchi ball
July 26th, 2008, 08:39 PM
the question has still nto been answered

DEX: I was captured during a culling on my planet. I was taken to a
ship. A Wraith started to feed on me.

FLASHBACK. As the Wraith stands with its hand plunged into Dex's
chest, its _expression changes and it looks perturbed. It looks down
to its hand.

DEX: Something made him stop.

--

what made it stop? was it wraith self control or was there a biological reason?

there is also the track record of these writers, who have been known to rewrite canon to facilitate an episode.

I thought of that, and remember everytime the Wraith stopped feeding he looked at his hand, like what the hell, so my guess is that somehow in that process of making him old then young again the Wraith never gains anything so its not really feeding, just pumping massive amounts of that enzyme through your system.

Which brings me to anther thing, enzymes are not broken down in the body they never break down they just act as a catalyst, so there would be no withdrawl. It's all very confusing.

freyr's mother
July 26th, 2008, 08:49 PM
I've found a plothole that i dont believe has been addressed. How did tyre know what planet ronon would be on if that was indeed the objective?

jelgate
July 26th, 2008, 08:52 PM
I've found a plothole that i dont believe has been addressed.?* How did tyre know what planet ronon would be on if that was indeed the objective?*sigh* We know nothing about the planet Ronon was on. Maybe someone alerted Tyre to his presence. Maybe Ronon was being followed much like the Geni do. Maybe the planet is a common trading partener with the Athosians.

Landers
July 26th, 2008, 08:52 PM
the question has still nto been answered

DEX: I was captured during a culling on my planet. I was taken to a
ship. A Wraith started to feed on me.

FLASHBACK. As the Wraith stands with its hand plunged into Dex's
chest, its _expression changes and it looks perturbed. It looks down
to its hand.

DEX: Something made him stop.

--

what made it stop? was it wraith self control or was there a biological reason?

there is also the track record of these writers, who have been known to rewrite canon to facilitate an episode.

Exactly. TPTB have never said the Wraith could or could not feed on Ronon. This scene has NEVER been explained. I assumed the Wraith couldn't feed on him and made him a runner instead. There is nothing in canon one way or the other. Another hole left by our illustrious writers.

. . and what was Teyla's father's name anyway, oh mighty writers? No one has bothered to step up to the plate and explain that one either.

JohnDuh
July 26th, 2008, 08:54 PM
The implication has always been that Ronon is immune to the regular Wraith feeding process



Not in anything you quoted.

JohnDuh
July 26th, 2008, 09:01 PM
Teyla asking him if he has children and him telling her he had a yorkie, he divorced from his wife and she got the dog! How... not that fun.

Wasn't meant to be... fun.

Rockhound
July 26th, 2008, 09:19 PM
I loved this episode. Jason was awesome. his best episode yet. The actor
that played Tyre was great also. Too bad he can't stick around. He was much better that his last appearance.

I was not too sure about Woolsey coming in. I wasn't crazy about him in
The Seed, but he was awesome in BT. Very funny. I actually loved him in
the scenes with RDA in The Return.

I loved Teyla in this episode, but I cannot stand seeing her with Kanaan!!!
This is just so hard to swallow. The baby, yes, but there is just no connection at all with K> There is more chemistry between J&T when they are mad at each other. I really hope that Kanaan is gone soon and Teyla can realize who she really loves.

The intense concern on John, Teyla, and Rodney's faces when Ronan was going through his withdrawal was awesome. It really shows how much the 4 of them really feel about each other. We all know how John & Teyla feel about Ronan, but seeing Rodney so concerned was really really touching.

All in all, loved the episode - I just wish there was more of Lorne.

JohnDuh
July 26th, 2008, 09:23 PM
Hi,

does anyone know the name off that classical piece at the end?

Thx!

It was composed for the episode by Joel Goldsmith

JohnDuh
July 26th, 2008, 09:27 PM
Sheppard: "I'm not taking a bath with you"


According to Malozzi in the first draft McKay replied:

"I’m both relieved and slightly disappointed."

But the others savagely killed it - tsk tsk ;)

navyflightnurse
July 26th, 2008, 09:35 PM
Ronon's Hair Issue:

I read that the producers did write in Ronon's shorter hair and the network nixed it. The hair he wore in this episode was his real hair...sewn back to his head and then he wore his stunt doubles wig for an episode and then later they bought a different wig.

Did Ronon have his gun with him when Teyla stunned the crap out of him?

I love how Sheppard is more ... um, serious this season. He started getting that way last year after Teyla got pregnant, but still had Carter to be the fall guy. Now he is "the guy" and seems to fit the role more. I loved how he yelled at Teyla to make a decision of whether she was on the team or not ... especially after she was on the fence and didn't share that with him. I dig that love/hate relationship with them and as for Kanan ... he can transfer back to the main land anytime now.

miniglik
July 26th, 2008, 09:40 PM
According to Malozzi in the first draft McKay replied:

"I’m both relieved and slightly disappointed."

But the others savagely killed it - tsk tsk ;)

I'm not McSheppy, but I so wish this had happened, just so I could enjoy it when multitudes of slashy fangirl/boys squeed in unison.

amconway
July 26th, 2008, 09:41 PM
This was exactly what I have been hoping for for years now! Major character development - Ronan just became a much more complicated character as well as one with a much wider range of emotion, the vignettes at the end showed us a little more of who they all are. There was even some philosophical conflict between team members. Okay, it was about the baby (brrrr...), but it was something we haven't seen much of for a long time. Major team building - it wasn't just a statement of intent, we saw them trying everything and how much it meant to them. We saw their reactions to Ronan's withdrawal and recovery.

All terrific, exactly the kind of changes that I hoped they'd make.
There was only one thing missing. The gate. They went through it (and back) at least three times in this episode, and yet we only saw the gate once. even then, we just saw the kawhoosh, not anyone going through it.

I begin to wonder if the whole lack-of-gate is, in fact, a matter of budget. Can they not afford the CGI to show the characters going through the gate? The kawhoosh was probably stock footage-no need to redo it, but if someone walks through it... Or worse, that blasted puddle jumper flies through it -major CGI...

Now I'm not saying they should show it every time they go through it. That would eat up too much time. But there would have been a couple of points where it would have really added to the drama or set the scene. Like when Teyla and Ronan arrive on the world from which Ronan is taken (They could have even been walking! gasp!) and when the team returns with Ronan. Admittedly, a puddle jumper flying in is just not as dramatic as a team running through the gate...

All in all, though, things are really moving in the right direction! I am very pleased.

Jeffala
July 26th, 2008, 09:48 PM
I'm not McSheppy, but I so wish this had happened, just so I could enjoy it when multitudes of slashy fangirl/boys squeed in unison.

You know, that might have been too much for the servers to handle.

diane23
July 26th, 2008, 09:48 PM
as for Kanan ... he can transfer back to the main land anytime now.

I am very much in agreement with you there. They haven't done much of anything with his character, and I'm kinda glad, heh.

miniglik
July 26th, 2008, 09:59 PM
You know, that might have been too much for the servers to handle.

I know. It would have been epic.

And I thought "he said 'John'" was bad.

Jeyla4ever
July 26th, 2008, 10:02 PM
I'm not so thrilled with this episode as I have been with Search and Rescue and The Seed and yet, ironically in all three episodes have had the best moments for Teyla that I really missed in Season 4.

Let's start with the easy part: This seem more of a plot a/ plot b scenario episode than a Ronon-centric episode. I don't know maybe I was so damn spoiled with Sateda that I just compare now all episodes that are meant to be Ronon-centric with that one and just like Reunion, this one was even more poorly executed. Don't get me wrong, Jason was AWESOME, but as far as action and angst, I think Tyre got more of a role here than even Ronon himself, so that was dissapointing.

Rodney...Gosh, I could kiss the writers right now...repeatedly. I am so falling for this guy is not even funny!!!! from being the least favorite on the team to now getting up there with Teyla and John...gosh, that scene with him next to Ronon and then in that bathtub!! Gosh, how freaking cute is he!!!???? LOVE IT!

Woosly, have to say this was really good for him. I"m still not sure about him as a leader overall, but such a different approach for him altogether...but those scenes of him still familiarizing himself with the city, and Teyla giving him the baby!!! That translates to family more than anything. And you know what, now that I think about it, Weir brought in this aspect of a civilian leader and a motherly-worry leader. Sam was all in charge and straight to the point and could do no wrong....Woosly is surprisingly doing what neither Weir nor Sam have been able to do..he's got the civilian padded down even moreso than Weir and he's got the straight by the book too, but at the same time he has this vulnerable side, this soft side, this role-model side to him that I think might work. But still, I'm not sure. Ask me again next episode, I might not like him!

John...gosh I love him in this one and hated him at the same time. He was GREAT! loved how he worked with everything that had to be done. Loved how he was straightforward on what needed to be done with Tyre to save Ronon. Not a pleasant thing, but necessary for someone in his position. Love that he's back as the Military Commander! DAMN, I knew that this side of him was missing since Season 4. But I think where he shined was in his scenes with Teyla. Now, yes, I"m a shipper but bare with me.

These two, they have such great vibe together. I totally understand where he was coming from but I also understand where Teyla was coming from.

They both wanted the same thing. She wanted to be with her team and he wanted her to continue in the team. But they both knew what was at stake and the fact that John knew her decision and was willing to accept it just broke my heart. He was thinking of her just not the way she wanted him to think of her. I keep going back to that Men are from Mars Women are from Venus book. John didn't deliberatly not tell Teyla about Ronon but instead wanted to give her space in addition to he didn't want to think about that now either. And Teyla expected John to tell her about Ronon considering that this was in fact, Ronon!

So, they are both thinking of one another but not in the way they both wanted and in the end, misunderstood each other.

I thought I was going to feel awkward about Teyla going to Woosely but it was very well done. The writers really did great in showing this struggle that Teyla had in making this decision and I love how this was about her child and her role in the team. She loves and cares for them both, and I think that what she needed was to hear from Kanan that he would be there when she was not.

Makes sense. And this depth into her character was fantastic and very well done.

The angst between her and John was hurtful but extremely well done.

Overall, the Ronon plot was dissapointing but the drama between and the lovely character moments, were priceless!

Mitchell82
July 26th, 2008, 10:08 PM
This was definitely the best ep of the season so far. Not only was it a top notch Ronon centric ep it also was a Teyla centric one! And a damn good one at that. Very cool opening with the stunner way better than Sg-1's constantly overused stock Zat footage. By that I mean this. It got annoying because it was shot in season 2 and the grain got obvious over the course of the show.http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t63/gatefan7882/sg1_914_0159.jpg The scene with Woolsey and the door had me ROTFLMAO! I am loving him more and more. JM said this ep would show his human side and it did indeed. It was great seeing Kanan back in human form and helping her make her decision. Quick question does anyone know if that is actually Rachel's baby? It was great to see Trye again and really loved the twist they put on him. I had a feeling he didn't turn again and his battle with Ronon was great. Loved him giving his life for his friend. This was a great ep and I think Woolsey has been a great choice for the show. Can't wait for next week.

Mitchell82
July 26th, 2008, 10:11 PM
I am very much in agreement with you there. They haven't done much of anything with his character, and I'm kinda glad, heh.

Well he was one of Michael's drones untill recently. This ep really showcased him though and I quite liked him in it.

jayeffaar
July 26th, 2008, 10:43 PM
Even Major Lorne couldn't make it better. Boy that was a quick recovery from a broken leg. Or it seemed like it was anyway. Maybe enough months had passed. Course that's one story detail that I don't care if it's believable or not because I didn't want him gone very long.

It's not that impressive considering that in the same time period, Shep managed to completely recover from two deep abdominal injuries. Not that much time could have passed since The Seed, considering that Woosley was still unpacking boxes in his office.

amconway
July 26th, 2008, 10:49 PM
I don't know how much you can read into boxes. I bought my house 10 years ago and still have boxes that I haven't unpacked. Besides, he was clearly occupied with setting up his rather nice quarters ;)
I think we have to assume that enough time passed for both men to heal - say, 2-3 months?

sarcasmo
July 26th, 2008, 10:50 PM
Credit where credit is due. The episode rocked.

It's a damn shame Sheppard didn't want to get in the bath with McKay though... ;-)

Mitchell82
July 26th, 2008, 10:50 PM
Credit where credit is due. The episode rocked.

It's a damn shame Sheppard didn't want to get in the bath with McKay though... ;-)

Thanks for that image.:mckay:;)

starfox
July 26th, 2008, 10:50 PM
Well he was one of Michael's drones untill recently. This ep really showcased him though and I quite liked him in it.

Plus, he serves kind of a necessary function. Considering the fact that all the expedition members are probably to busy to be full-time babysitters, Kanaan's got to be there to watch the kid, unless Teyla brings someone else from the mainland to do it. The boyfriend and kid are there; having Kanaan on the city and taking care of Torren means that the writers don't have to focus as heavily on Teyla's family and can instead focus on her relationship with the team.

Mitchell82
July 26th, 2008, 10:52 PM
Plus, he serves kind of a necessary function. Considering the fact that all the expedition members are probably to busy to be full-time babysitters, Kanaan's got to be there to watch the kid, unless Teyla brings someone else from the mainland to do it. The boyfriend and kid are there; having Kanaan on the city and taking care of Torren means that the writers don't have to focus as heavily on Teyla's family and can instead focus on her relationship with the team.

Hmm good point.

diane23
July 26th, 2008, 10:57 PM
Plus, he serves kind of a necessary function. Considering the fact that all the expedition members are probably to busy to be full-time babysitters, Kanaan's got to be there to watch the kid, unless Teyla brings someone else from the mainland to do it. The boyfriend and kid are there; having Kanaan on the city and taking care of Torren means that the writers don't have to focus as heavily on Teyla's family and can instead focus on her relationship with the team.

I'd never thought of it Kanaan like that. Very good point though.. I'd rather have him there and Teyla out with the team.

Shan Bruce Lee
July 27th, 2008, 01:17 AM
*sigh* We know nothing about the planet Ronon was on. Maybe someone alerted Tyre to his presence. Maybe Ronon was being followed much like the Geni do. Maybe the planet is a common trading partener with the Athosians.

yeah, Teyla and Ronon were both carrying supplies when they saw Tyre so I just figured it was a world they trade with.

PG15
July 27th, 2008, 01:22 AM
Haha, Satedan revenge thing. :D

This was an intense episode! Both Jason and Mark hit it out of the park as far as I'm concerned in expressing the utter pain and desperation when dealing with the addiction to the gift of life. Meanwhile, I found myself pleasantly surprised at how much I enjoyed Teyla's ongoing story arc, and Woolsey continues to prove me right on how absolutely awesome he is.

No, I'm not saying "I told you so" to all those posters I defended Woolsey against when he was announced to be the leader. Nuh uh. No way. No "I told you so" here. ;)

As some others have said, this, along with the past 2 episodes this year, has been very evenly spread out, in terms of screentime for the characters. I love that, as, even if 1 character is the one in danger and being put through the ringer, the other characters should still get screentime, as they'd be reacting to that, and that's exactly what we got here. Ronon's ordeal was horrible to watch (but in a good way), while we also get to see the concern on the other team members' faces. I'm glad they're doing this. I'm also glad that they've laid off on the "green-blue" color filter that seemed to have permeated every episode last year. It started off cool, but got old as a lot of the vibrant colors of Atlantis got blurred out. This change really caught my attention in the initial conference room scene in this episode, as I was amazed by the beautiful contrast of the orange conference doors and the green walls of Atlantis opposite them across the gateroom. Nicely done, TPTB.

But enough aesthetics, let's talk character. As I said before, Jason blew me away. His acting was just so nuanced and detailed in this episode; he got to explore so many facets of Ronon in such a short time. Again, I loved that. At the beginning, he was carefree and gently ribbed Teyla about Kanaan. After his capture, he showed anger towards Tyre, but nothing out of the ordinary for an agitated Ronon. He even joked a bit. However, when he noticed that his fellow Satedan was shaking and looking like he hasn't slept in weeks, he grew concerned, and I saw genuine caring in his face as he tried to convince Tyre to let him go so they can find him some help. Of course, that all changed when the Wraith entered the picture. Again, there is nuance. Ronon's face showed fear as the Wraith arrived; it was subtle, but it was there. The brooding hulk that is Ronon just got a lot more human as he faced the creatures that has terrorized the entire galaxy without any means to defend himself. Why shouldn't he be afraid?

And then the first feeding. I gotta say, SciFi screwed up here, as an intense moment was ruined by an ad for one of their stupid original movies. Still, I winced for him; I mean, really, even though he's gone through hardship, Wraith feeding is one thing he has never experienced. Still, he didn't scream or shout, but just grunted in pain, and that's just...soooo Ronon. Then, as his life is given back to him, he still managed to be defiant towards the Wraith, but it's clear that he's shaken, that he's disturbed and hurt. Once more, this is new ground for Ronon. Pushing someone out of their comfort zone is always good, and this is exactly that. The faltering of Ronon's hard exterior was just painful to watch as he tries to comprehend the level of horror he is about to experience, over and over again. Then, he is fed on again, and even though there was an initial few seconds where Ronon held back a scream of pain, he couldn't hold on. He roared in pain as the Wraith took the years from him.

Ronon was breaking.

Then came one of the most moving, disturbing, and awesomenest scenes in the episode. Ronon, close to tears, is trying to be convinced by Tyre to accept it and move on. But it's more than that. It's more than the physical pain he's gone through, it's the emotional pain. Yeah, that's right, Ronon's emotional pain. His voice was barely a whisper (aaaaand I'm tearing up), his voice contorted in anger mixed with sadness, and it's all because of one thing: he was betrayed. Oh, but this wasn't just some random betrayal. He was betrayed by someone he risked his life for, someone who, along with himself, was the last of his race, one of the only ones capable of continuing the traditions and ethics of the Satedan race: honor, strength, and all that other good stuff that Tyre abandoned when he captured and sold Ronon out. It's all in Ronon's words:

"You were not the man I risked my life for; you are a traitor to the memory of our people."

It's all there (and a transcript of the line has nothing, NOTHING on the actual effect of seeing Jason Momoa deliver it in the way he did in this episode. Absolute brilliance); not only did Ronon now see his past risks as worthless, but also useless, because the man he tried to save has effectively died. Also, he was a traitor to the memory of his people; once again reminding us that they were some of the only ones left, and this one's gone off the deep end.

My God I'm good with reviewing.

From there, Ronon gets tortured over and over. He is defiant, using the names of 2 of his dead comrades that never gave into the Wraith...only to find that the truth (or maybe the Wraith was lying, who knows) was much much worse than he had hoped. Then, he is fed on again, only this time he screams from the beginning, showing that his restraint is no more.

I'll skip the montage, as I want to talk about it later when I go through Tyre's development. For now, I'll just say it was awesome. Really, really awesome.

At the end, Ronon receives his last gift of life, and his expression is blank. No more defiance, no more anger...just acceptance and enjoyment at his life's return. So Ronon's broken now. It was disturbing seeing him accepting the Wraith's terms so easily...but that was all it was. I think this part would've been more effective had there been an 1-on-1 scene between Shep and Ronon as the former tries to convince the latter to see the truth, and having the latter totally reject the former. As is, there was no real indication that Ronon was with the Wraith as opposed to be pretending to be with the Wraith. A shame.

But it all returned in full force as Ronon attempts to recover at episode's end. Again, I can only tense up as Ronon's pain and suffering radiated off the screen. I haven't seen any real withdrawl symptoms like this in real life, so I can't vouch for the authenticity, but it sure as hell felt real to me. The thrashing, the no-blinking, the screaming, the shouting, and the indescribable expression of pain on his face all through this...it was tough to watch, but man, was it awesome because of that. There was also that brief moment where he was struck by the news of Tyre's death, but the Wraith programming still kicks in. Still, the fact that he hesitated meant that our Ronon was still in there, shocked and saddened at that moment. As he was going through all this pain, we saw his friends looking at him...and they didn't need to. I mean, why would a friend watch another suffer like this?

Because it's what true friends do. By watching Ronon's pain, they themselves share in it a miniscule bit...and it's something. Remember Bra'tac's words in Orpheus:

"Do not look away. Be strong for him. What better way for Teal'c to die that to be looking upon the face of his son?"

Ok, obviously that entire quote doesn't all apply here, but it's the first part, the being there, the being strong for him that mattered. Despite the uglyness of the scene before them, they stay there by his side, no matter what; because they're a team.

And I loved the continuity nod of Rodney talking to Ronon about his childhood proficiency in piano playing that was first revealed in Redemption. Wonderful stuff.

Phew...so that's Ronon. Then there's Tyre, whose journey was similarly as disturbing and impressive.

The way he started out was plenty disturbing already: eyes sunken, speech slightly impeded, and of course, he was shaking. Then, he jumped to another level when he said those few words: "I've saved us."

Soooo many meanings in those words, and excellently uttered. He saved them? How is that? One interpretation could be that, by turning Ronon, both of them may survive forever, feeding off the gift of life; or, that by sticking with the Wraith, they won't be culled like the rest. Whatever the meaning, it was creepy, and added a whole new meaning of warped to Tyre; he no longer understands that living the way he was wasn't really living at all; it was stealing; stealing life from the Wraiths' victims.

Then, in that awesome scene where Ronon realizes just how far-gone Tyre is, you can see the absolute denial in him as he shakes his head and utters plainly "no" to Ronon's statement that he sold him out so he can get back into the Wraiths' favor. But, at the end, as the Wraith returns, you can see Tyre straining to hold onto his convictions, but failing; Ronon's words have seemingly moved him, made him realize the man he has become. The Wraith's betrayal of him just reinforces that, especially as it comes after him shouting at the Wraith. He was beginning to see reason.

And then that montage. What can I say...I loved it soooooo much. I mean, this was pure-whump. Not just physical, but mental and emotional as well, and that's something I cherish in my shows. TPTB did a wonderful job cutting this sequence, as the camera was always moving, closer and farther away as Tyre and Ronon writhed in absolute pain. Shep's cold-hearted, but pragmatic "no sedative" (another indication of his darkness and his willingness to give up ethics to save a friend) starts off the sequence, and right away we have the magnificent choral music accompanying the two Satedans as they are tortured in the worst ways. I mean...my God, this goes down in Stargate history as one of the best montages as far as I'm concerned. Disturbing on so many levels.

Now Tyre, having gone through all of that, seems to have suffered through a karmic redemption. All that pain for the bad stuff he's done. And yet, he still wants to help. And as if it wasn't clear that this was actually a team episode, this part, in the Shep-Woolsey scene following that:

"Pure and simple, this is about a desperate guy who's willing to do anything to help his buddy"

"How can you be so certain of that, Colonel?"

"Because I've been there."

...Just hammers it home. This is EXACTLY the effects events like this should have on our characters! Just because Tyre is a character in Ronon's story doesn't mean there shouldn't be some influence of him on other characters. I was impressed that the writers went there, very impressed indeed. I love how they're solidifying Sheppard's story like this. We know he's "the guy", but in this season they seem to be consciously reinforcing that, and I love it.

What follows is one of the more tragic redemptions of a Stargate character. Others may scream "predicable", but Tyre's eagerness to help did seem strange; and then he held a knife at Teyla's throat. Yeah. Of course, the moment he led Shep and the Wraith down another passageway I knew he was the good guy now, and the ensuing hand-cutting and sword fighting was just freaking badass! I loved it, though I do have to agree with some that a lot of the action took place in settings of way too little light. I could barely see what was happening.

I can't wait to see the entire sword fight on the DVD. That was intense.

And of course, with all this analysis in this review, it would overflow. Let's me just say...

To be Continued...

Shan Bruce Lee
July 27th, 2008, 01:22 AM
Exactly. TPTB have never said the Wraith could or could not feed on Ronon. This scene has NEVER been explained. I assumed the Wraith couldn't feed on him and made him a runner instead. There is nothing in canon one way or the other. Another hole left by our illustrious writers.

. . and what was Teyla's father's name anyway, oh mighty writers? No one has bothered to step up to the plate and explain that one either.

Well even if you go by the logic that it's never been explained, then this episode is the sign pointing to it not being that he was immune.

The same thing goes for the name of Teyla's father and baby. We only assume that her father was Tegon (sp?)

You can't base accusations of plot holes on assumptions...

sarcasmo
July 27th, 2008, 01:26 AM
Thanks for that image.:mckay:;)

Hey, I'm enjoying it ;)

PG15
July 27th, 2008, 01:36 AM
And now, the conclusion.

And then...well, I didn't think they'd do it, but they did it. When Tyre offered to stay behind I thought we'd get an ambiguous ending, but nope. Still, I think it was the right choice. His character arc, though only lasting 2 episodes, was a prime example of redemption, and ending it by ways of saving our heroes, including Ronon, and maybe-crippling that Wraith's hive was just heart-breaking, yet you can't help but cheer for the guy as he flips the switch, and looks at the Wraith defiantly while he takes his last breath.

Tyre was redeemed, and I'm going to miss him.

There were other plotlines in the episode, of course; chiefly Teyla's and Woolsey's.

I had prophecied that Teyla's newborn would give her new layers, and IMHO I was right. I'm always up for seeing characters needing to choose their path in life (cue Avatar: The Last Airbender reference), and it was natural that Teyla would have one of those moments; it's also something pretty new to her character, as many have said in the past; she's always been decisive. But this was something much more important than past decisions, for this was very personal. Yes, she was waffling, but I can't really blame her. While she was contemplating the safety of Torren and his need for a mother, one of her best friends was missing, and you can see how she was slowly being torn apart by it. Shep saw this too, and issued her an ultimatum (very awkward scene, that one; loved Shep's "making up an excuse" face and McKay and Keller's quick exit. Yay McKeller! ;)), which tied perfectly back to last season. Again, character arcs on Stargate. I love it!

The highlight of her story this episode was in the scene with Kanaan. Like some others, I was luke-warm on the character, seeing him as kinda bland in his previous appearances. Well, it's amazing how a simple smile could change that. The human-fied Kanaan was warm, inviting, caring, and obviously wants what's best for Teyla; to make her happy. As someone said, their relationship was built on a life of friendship, trust, and devotion. It's not the "OMG THEY SO HAWT TOGETHER!!" type of romance, which I hate, but a more idealistic version of love that I think we all want. Kanaan's words to Teyla, that which finally helped make up her mind, was just sweet, and they came from someone who understood her perfectly. I especially loved his last line, "just promise me that you'll be careful out there"; it's fairly typical...for someone who cared about her very, very much. If was as if, all of his previous words were to objectively make up her mind, but this one was him personally hoping her to stay well; just the way he said, it was a very "husband" thing to say.

They're a good couple. I hope to see or hear more about them. :D

And that paves the way for Teyla's decision later on to join in the rescue mission, but that's not the end. You can just sense the higher-than-usual level of apprehension in her the moment Tyre "betrayed" them. Similarily, Teyla was uncharacteristically reflective and silent in her prison cell, and I loved that. The fear that must've enveloped her, to know that she may have made a huge mistake (Rodney didn't help XD)...it was palpable. But she survived, and Ronon made it through thanks, in part, to her efforts, and at the end, her arc goes full circle, and she rejoins the team. Great stuff.

Finally, we have Woolsey, who is awesome. I loved the humorous moments he got, which clearly exploited Robert Picardo's comedic talents. The none-too-subtle cough at Shep's omission in the conference room was in perfectly-keeping with the bureaucrat, and though I didn't think of it until I read it here, I'll take the explanation that the doors won't open because Sheppard made it so. :D I loved that scene.

Then came his scene with Teyla. It really is the character quirks and eccentricities that make a character relatable and likable because, well, we're all a little weird in that way. We all have strange rituals and priorities sometimes. Seeing him being so warm to Teyla was strange at first, and I was wondering if it were an act (Shep's news that Woolsey had been pressuring him to get a replacement for Teyla just reinforced that), but I guess it turned out that he was just that warm that day. Heh. I also loved his "intensely-emotional" moment when he talked about his Yorkie. Poor Woolsey; I took that as being a comedic moment, as he's being overdramatic when Teyla's problem is far more important (a child vs. a Yorkie?). Even if it weren't supposed to be funny, it still added another layer to his character, that he had emotional ties after all, and again, I loved that.

And of course, the baby scene. Loved his attempt at comforting Torren, which fails immediately, and his inability to find the cafeteria afterwards.

There was also a tiny moment in the last conference scene that I loved. As Woolsey goes up to the doors, he hesitates, and looks utterly bewildered when they open for him (but really, it was for McKay and Keller, I think). So subtle, and yet so brilliant.

And yes, Sheppard's "ugh, coffee" face was hilarious. ;)

Fast forwarding to the end, and we have the final joke that his relaxing-clothes are a suit and a tie. I laughed my ass off at that, as it's just...sooooo Woosley. From there, we go to yet another wonderful montage that wraps everything up very nicely: Woolsey enjoys a wine, some nice music, and a nice view as he congratulates himself on thinking that maybe, just maybe, his words to Teyla helped her make up her mind; Teyla and Kanaan share a loving moment with Torren as they ponder their futures together; McKay has a brilliant idea in the bath, brilliantly paying off the humorous character moment earlier between him and Sheppard (that was a great scene too; the slash thing was a nice shoutout to the slashers out there, and I loved that Shep referenced someone having a crush on Teyla; who wouldn't?! ;)); and finally, a highly-emotional moment (i.e. I teared up again) as Shep gives Ronon Tyre's sword and leaves without saying a word, all the time looking bleak. It was a wonderful place to end the episode; in those few seconds we got so much character work done. Shep was feeling the loss as well, as he can relate to Tyre; but Ronon...my God, just the absolute sadness in his expression as he looks at the sword and holds it to his chest; he looked close to tears...it was heartbreaking. He has lost a good friend from Sateda who lost his way, but ultimately redeemed and sacrificed himself for them all. It was a heavy loss, to be sure.

This was a great episode, but it's not without faults. There are 2 things that I thought detracted from the episode: the beginning was a little slow, and Rodney didn't reference his own withdraw symptoms from The Hive. But you know what? Looking over this review...I don't think I care. Loved the episode.

Score: 9.5/10

Though I rated S&R 9/10, thinking about it afterwards raised it to 9.5 as well. The Seed was a bit average though. Still, I think this season is off to a great start!

Lahela
July 27th, 2008, 01:39 AM
Well even if you go by the logic that it's never been explained, then this episode is the sign pointing to it not being that he was immune.


Precisely! Perhaps we should be thanking the writers for answering a question that has bothered some sections of fandom for three years instead of berating them for not having answered it sooner :rolleyes:

Libre
July 27th, 2008, 02:25 AM
Atlantis is back baby!
*This* is what I love about this show - when it's good.... it's fantastic!

This week, Atlantis had that 'old school' feel about it. All the little details about city life and the real spread of characters and sets used (and getting to see more of Atlantis and it’s daily life- they're still serving a hot breakfast at 10am!? Does every room in Atlantis come with a bath like Rodney’s? Is everyone allowed a veritable wine cellar in their quarters or just the leader?)...it made me like it again. TBH, that's why I loved this show in the first place - all these weird individuals (and you do have to be a certain kind of person to agree to what was potentially a one-way trip) and how they reacted to this entirely unfamiliar city and galaxy.
It's nice to see *all* the characters getting moments. Obviously, this was a little more of a Ronon vehicle (and wow, that detox scene!) but when the writer's get it right, like they did here, the character development and interaction is of a very high standard. Rachel and Jason hit it out of the park with their respective scenes. Jason so far has been *way* underutilised and it was so good so see what he can do. So far, they seem to be handling Teyla's storyline very nicely - they managed to convey that internal conflict without it being over the top or even worse, preachy.
The final montage was probably my favourite scene: between the gorgeous music, and the scenes of the various characters being so *themselves* - this could really be the season that Atlantis both returns to its roots and finds its feet.

Woolsey is.... in my view, a better character for this position than Carter (And I am iin now way a Carter-hater). With Woolsey they have the chance to really explore him and flesh him out - let him fail and see how he grows. He's almost 'the audience' - totally new, totally out of his element. From what I see, he's a brilliant bureaucrat and perhaps, is better suited to evaluating leaders than actually being one and so, having to take that position will really help him to grow as a character and *that's* what great storytelling is all about. Poor kid, the doors wouldn't even open for him!
It's also kinda refreshing to see people have to ask for permission, it seemed as though, for a while, there was no leadership, no 'checks and balances' and that tension between 'why can't I just go if I think it's a good idea' and 'sometimes, those rules aren't going to work here' will hopefully play out really nicely. (It doesn't hurt that I think Robert Picardo is a very talented actor).
I do, however, miss the old semi-circle table. It was interesting. The new one reminds me too much of my day-job. Oh well, the new shots of city life are almost an acceptable trade-off. The pretty-pretty-pretty black/gold of the night scenes made me sigh a little.

Hoping for more wicked-good episodes - this could be a very, very good season.

Nusku
July 27th, 2008, 04:05 AM
My review of "Broken Ties" doesn't meet the requirements for the review thread.


Ronon gets captured and turned by a wraith. Unsuprisingly, by the end of the episode he has been rescued and unturned. Yawn.

Teyla makes the unshocking decision to rejoin Shepards team. Yawn.

Ronon's pal eventually did the right thing and sacrificed himself; I didn't see that coming. Yawn.

What would have been way more interesting, and unpredictable, is if Ronon didn't get unturned and had stayed a wraith worshipper for a good number of episodes, thus becoming Atlantis' nemesis.

Keller's voice and persona were as grating as usual. Woolsey had no real reason to be featured in the episode and did not appear to be a leader in any way, shape or form.

This episode was as dull, predictable and boring as the other two offerings from this season. Quite annoying really as it's the only current TV show I watch. Based on what I've seen so far this season I'm expecting SGA to get cancelled.

I'll give it 1/10 for Ronon's sword work.

ykickamoocow
July 27th, 2008, 04:08 AM
My review of "Broken Ties" doesn't meet the requirements for the review thread.


Ronon gets captured and turned by a wraith. Unsuprisingly, by the end of the episode he has been rescued and unturned. Yawn.

Teyla makes the unshocking decision to rejoin Shepards team. Yawn.

Ronon's pal eventually did the right thing and sacrificed himself; I didn't see that coming. Yawn.

What would have been way more interesting, and unpredictable, is if Ronon didn't get unturned and had stayed a wraith worshipper for a good number of episodes, thus becoming Atlantis' nemesis.

Keller's voice and persona were as grating as usual. Woolsey had no real reason to be featured in the episode and did not appear to be a leader in any way, shape or form.

This episode was as dull, predictable and boring as the other two offerings from this season. Quite annoying really as it's the only current TV show I watch. Based on what I've seen so far this season I'm expecting SGA to get cancelled.

I'll give it 1/10 for Ronon's sword work.

If you hate SGA so much why watch it.

Jedi_Master_Bra'tac
July 27th, 2008, 04:20 AM
He'd cut off his feeding hand... how would you feel if someone cut out your stomach?

Nusku
July 27th, 2008, 04:22 AM
why watch it.

Because I enjoyed Season's 1-4. Season 5 has been utter tripe so far and therefore I feel annoyed.

ykickamoocow
July 27th, 2008, 04:24 AM
Because I enjoyed Season's 1-4. Season 5 has been utter tripe so far and therefore I feel annoyed.

Season 5 has been received quite well so far by most SGA fans so maybe its you with the problem.

ussrelativity
July 27th, 2008, 04:26 AM
Because I enjoyed Season's 1-4. Season 5 has been utter tripe so far and therefore I feel annoyed.

Perhaps you will like "The Daedalus Variations".

TBA
July 27th, 2008, 05:05 AM
It's too early to tell s5 is bad - S&R was mediocre and TS was awful, but I quite enjoyed BT. From the looks of it, DV is gonna be awesome though.

marty2006
July 27th, 2008, 05:08 AM
Because I enjoyed Season's 1-4. Season 5 has been utter tripe so far and therefore I feel annoyed.

Lol aye ok.

Jonzey
July 27th, 2008, 05:09 AM
Wow that sounds like... every single episode of Stargate ever.

Also apparantly if they don't resolve and explain every problem within an episode it's bad/sloppy/lazy writing with no continuity.

This is the way Stargate's always been. Maybe you've outgrown it.

Sometimes I wish TPTB wouldn't pay so much attention the the fans.

pjt
July 27th, 2008, 05:23 AM
I do, however, miss the old semi-circle table. It was interesting. The new one reminds me too much of my day-job.

Wow, you work at the SGC? :eek:

KindlyKeller
July 27th, 2008, 06:07 AM
I love when people break out the "yawn," especially when their connected complaints about how things like Sheppard's hunch being right are what they took issue with.

If you loved S1 - 4, then you should know that the things you're unhappy with happened in pretty much every episode of each of those four seasons.

But nevertheless, I'm sorry you didn't like it. I thought it was easily the worst of S5, but it's not like it was offensively bad for me or anything. There were some good points, including Teyla's b-plot. On that point, by the way, what were you expecting? "Yawn" for Teyla returning? She had to unless she was going to be written out of the show.

Anyway, next week's looks good. Hope you enjoy that one.

xtremixt
July 27th, 2008, 06:26 AM
i thought the wraith couldn't feed on ronan, isn't that why they made him a runner? thats the impression i got when he was introduced. or maybe he got chosen to be a runner because he was so strong?

Jedi_Master_Bra'tac
July 27th, 2008, 06:27 AM
The latter

Libre
July 27th, 2008, 07:00 AM
Wow, you work at the SGC? :eek:

Lol, I *wish* - do you think they hire lawyers or analysts? ;).
Sadly, it's just an ordinary law firm (which....off topic, I'm leaving soon!).

FireCat
July 27th, 2008, 07:30 AM
Well even if you go by the logic that it's never been explained, then this episode is the sign pointing to it not being that he was immune.

I read on JM's blog that Cooper always "intended" for Ronon to just be a strong dude that the Wraith wanted to play with. But what's in a writer's mind and what shows up on screen can be two different animals. All this time I felt the Wraith couldn't feed on Ronon so this episode appeared to be another mistake on the part of the writers. Now it is canon, but it took THREE YEARS to make it so?


The same thing goes for the name of Teyla's father and baby. We only assume that her father was Tegon (sp?)

You can't base accusations of plot holes on assumptions...

"I'm Teyla, daughter of Tagan", and that's how we are introduced to Teyla, but JM admits there is no show "bible" and he was not the show runner at that time, so I'd bet money "Torrin" is a name they came up with because no one could remember "Tagan". Can't you just see them in the writer's room:

"Uh, what was Teyla's father's name?"

"I don't know, um, something that started with a T I think"

"Hey, "Torrin" sounds good, and no one will remember anyway."

Yeah right.

Toss it in with various fans asking JM for the last three weeks to settle THAT question, and his refusal to answer it, and you get yet another MISTAKE.

The writers have become very sloppy this season and it seems every episode has some huge plot hole or boo-boo that could have easily been avoided with a little research, but what is really irritating is how TPTB seem to think they are as pure as Jesus and make no mistakes. Dudes, if you mess up, just admit it and move on, but making excuses or refusing to acknowledge the errors, just makes it worse and makes you come across as arrogant.

Shan Bruce Lee
July 27th, 2008, 08:07 AM
I read on JM's blog that Cooper always "intended" for Ronon to just be a strong dude that the Wraith wanted to play with. But what's in a writer's mind and what shows up on screen can be two different animals. All this time I felt the Wraith couldn't feed on Ronon so this episode appeared to be another mistake on the part of the writers. Now it is canon, but it took THREE YEARS to make it so?



"I'm Teyla, daughter of Tagan", and that's how we are introduced to Teyla, but JM admits there is no show "bible" and he was not the show runner at that time, so I'd bet money "Torrin" is a name they came up with because no one could remember "Tagan". Can't you just see them in the writer's room:

"Uh, what was Teyla's father's name?"

"I don't know, um, something that started with a T I think"

"Hey, "Torrin" sounds good, and no one will remember anyway."

Yeah right.

Toss it in with various fans asking JM for the last three weeks to settle THAT question, and his refusal to answer it, and you get yet another MISTAKE.

The writers have become very sloppy this season and it seems every episode has some huge plot hole or boo-boo that could have easily been avoided with a little research, but what is really irritating is how TPTB seem to think they are as pure as Jesus and make no mistakes. Dudes, if you mess up, just admit it and move on, but making excuses or refusing to acknowledge the errors, just makes it worse and makes you come across as arrogant.

That's exactly what I meant about making assumptions. The Tegan/Torrin thing may be a plot hole but it's still not clear... unless you've got some insight into what Teyla's mother's name is...

Did JM actually say "No I refuse to answer that question!"? I'm asking because I have to admit I never read his blog.

And how are the writers "very sloppy this season"? It's possible the Tegan/Torrin thing is a mistake (but again, even that isn't clear) and even assuming that it is a plot hole, what other mistakes have they made?

Mitchell82
July 27th, 2008, 09:11 AM
And now, the conclusion.

And then...well, I didn't think they'd do it, but they did it. When Tyre offered to stay behind I thought we'd get an ambiguous ending, but nope. Still, I think it was the right choice. His character arc, though only lasting 2 episodes, was a prime example of redemption, and ending it by ways of saving our heroes, including Ronon, and maybe-crippling that Wraith's hive was just heart-breaking, yet you can't help but cheer for the guy as he flips the switch, and looks at the Wraith defiantly while he takes his last breath.

Tyre was redeemed, and I'm going to miss him.

There were other plotlines in the episode, of course; chiefly Teyla's and Woolsey's.

I had prophecied that Teyla's newborn would give her new layers, and IMHO I was right. I'm always up for seeing characters needing to choose their path in life (cue Avatar: The Last Airbender reference), and it was natural that Teyla would have one of those moments; it's also something pretty new to her character, as many have said in the past; she's always been decisive. But this was something much more important than past decisions, for this was very personal. Yes, she was waffling, but I can't really blame her. While she was contemplating the safety of Torren and his need for a mother, one of her best friends was missing, and you can see how she was slowly being torn apart by it. Shep saw this too, and issued her an ultimatum (very awkward scene, that one; loved Shep's "making up an excuse" face and McKay and Keller's quick exit. Yay McKeller! ;)), which tied perfectly back to last season. Again, character arcs on Stargate. I love it!

The highlight of her story this episode was in the scene with Kanaan. Like some others, I was luke-warm on the character, seeing him as kinda bland in his previous appearances. Well, it's amazing how a simple smile could change that. The human-fied Kanaan was warm, inviting, caring, and obviously wants what's best for Teyla; to make her happy. As someone said, their relationship was built on a life of friendship, trust, and devotion. It's not the "OMG THEY SO HAWT TOGETHER!!" type of romance, which I hate, but a more idealistic version of love that I think we all want. Kanaan's words to Teyla, that which finally helped make up her mind, was just sweet, and they came from someone who understood her perfectly. I especially loved his last line, "just promise me that you'll be careful out there"; it's fairly typical...for someone who cared about her very, very much. If was as if, all of his previous words were to objectively make up her mind, but this one was him personally hoping her to stay well; just the way he said, it was a very "husband" thing to say.

They're a good couple. I hope to see or hear more about them. :D

And that paves the way for Teyla's decision later on to join in the rescue mission, but that's not the end. You can just sense the higher-than-usual level of apprehension in her the moment Tyre "betrayed" them. Similarily, Teyla was uncharacteristically reflective and silent in her prison cell, and I loved that. The fear that must've enveloped her, to know that she may have made a huge mistake (Rodney didn't help XD)...it was palpable. But she survived, and Ronon made it through thanks, in part, to her efforts, and at the end, her arc goes full circle, and she rejoins the team. Great stuff.

Finally, we have Woolsey, who is awesome. I loved the humorous moments he got, which clearly exploited Robert Picardo's comedic talents. The none-too-subtle cough at Shep's omission in the conference room was in perfectly-keeping with the bureaucrat, and though I didn't think of it until I read it here, I'll take the explanation that the doors won't open because Sheppard made it so. :D I loved that scene.

Then came his scene with Teyla. It really is the character quirks and eccentricities that make a character relatable and likable because, well, we're all a little weird in that way. We all have strange rituals and priorities sometimes. Seeing him being so warm to Teyla was strange at first, and I was wondering if it were an act (Shep's news that Woolsey had been pressuring him to get a replacement for Teyla just reinforced that), but I guess it turned out that he was just that warm that day. Heh. I also loved his "intensely-emotional" moment when he talked about his Yorkie. Poor Woolsey; I took that as being a comedic moment, as he's being overdramatic when Teyla's problem is far more important (a child vs. a Yorkie?). Even if it weren't supposed to be funny, it still added another layer to his character, that he had emotional ties after all, and again, I loved that.

And of course, the baby scene. Loved his attempt at comforting Torren, which fails immediately, and his inability to find the cafeteria afterwards.

There was also a tiny moment in the last conference scene that I loved. As Woolsey goes up to the doors, he hesitates, and looks utterly bewildered when they open for him (but really, it was for McKay and Keller, I think). So subtle, and yet so brilliant.

And yes, Sheppard's "ugh, coffee" face was hilarious. ;)

Fast forwarding to the end, and we have the final joke that his relaxing-clothes are a suit and a tie. I laughed my ass off at that, as it's just...sooooo Woosley. From there, we go to yet another wonderful montage that wraps everything up very nicely: Woolsey enjoys a wine, some nice music, and a nice view as he congratulates himself on thinking that maybe, just maybe, his words to Teyla helped her make up her mind; Teyla and Kanaan share a loving moment with Torren as they ponder their futures together; McKay has a brilliant idea in the bath, brilliantly paying off the humorous character moment earlier between him and Sheppard (that was a great scene too; the slash thing was a nice shoutout to the slashers out there, and I loved that Shep referenced someone having a crush on Teyla; who wouldn't?! ;)); and finally, a highly-emotional moment (i.e. I teared up again) as Shep gives Ronon Tyre's sword and leaves without saying a word, all the time looking bleak. It was a wonderful place to end the episode; in those few seconds we got so much character work done. Shep was feeling the loss as well, as he can relate to Tyre; but Ronon...my God, just the absolute sadness in his expression as he looks at the sword and holds it to his chest; he looked close to tears...it was heartbreaking. He has lost a good friend from Sateda who lost his way, but ultimately redeemed and sacrificed himself for them all. It was a heavy loss, to be sure.

This was a great episode, but it's not without faults. There are 2 things that I thought detracted from the episode: the beginning was a little slow, and Rodney didn't reference his own withdraw symptoms from The Hive. But you know what? Looking over this review...I don't think I care. Loved the episode.

Score: 9.5/10

Though I rated S&R 9/10, thinking about it afterwards raised it to 9.5 as well. The Seed was a bit average though. Still, I think this season is off to a great start!

Excellent review buddy. Agree 100%.

Dr Quinn
July 27th, 2008, 09:12 AM
A couple things I don't get about withdrawing from the enzyme:

It seemed like Tyre had been without the enzyme for some time before he captured Ronon, yet he was not going through the violent withdrawal that he did once he was taken to Alantis. More of a slow, painful decline. Ronon also quickly began to have dramatic withdrawal symptoms once deprived of the Wraith feeding/return. Any ideas why?

And although I understand the reasons for not letting Tyre receive sedation and pain meds during his withdrawal as they needed information quickly, why make Ronon suffer the same? For the dramatic portrayal he gave us, I'm kind of glad they didn't, but for humanitarian reasons, it would have been kinder...
Unless his reactions were so pronounced that he was being given sedation but it just had no effect?

Mitchell82
July 27th, 2008, 09:16 AM
I read on JM's blog that Cooper always "intended" for Ronon to just be a strong dude that the Wraith wanted to play with. But what's in a writer's mind and what shows up on screen can be two different animals. All this time I felt the Wraith couldn't feed on Ronon so this episode appeared to be another mistake on the part of the writers. Now it is canon, but it took THREE YEARS to make it so?
I guess it's a matter of perspective since I always felt that the scene showed that the Wraith sensed something in him that indicated he could be usefull. Never once did I feel it showed he was immune to feeding.



"
I'm Teyla, daughter of Tagan", and that's how we are introduced to Teyla, but JM admits there is no show "bible" and he was not the show runner at that time, so I'd bet money "Torrin" is a name they came up with because no one could remember "Tagan". Can't you just see them in the writer's room:

"Uh, what was Teyla's father's name?"

"I don't know, um, something that started with a T I think"

"Hey, "Torrin" sounds good, and no one will remember anyway."

Yeah right.
I doubt it. It's possible that it was a mistake but that happens when the head guys on a show change and with so many writers. It is not as big of a deal as some are making it.


Toss it in with various fans asking JM for the last three weeks to settle THAT question, and his refusal to answer it, and you get yet another MISTAKE.
I have never once seen him refuse to answer something unless it was due to a confidential issue.


The writers have become very sloppy this season and it seems every episode has some huge plot hole or boo-boo that could have easily been avoided with a little research, but what is really irritating is how TPTB seem to think they are as pure as Jesus and make no mistakes. Dudes, if you mess up, just admit it and move on, but making excuses or refusing to acknowledge the errors, just makes it worse and makes you come across as arrogant.
I disagree.

rarocks24
July 27th, 2008, 09:18 AM
A couple things I don't get about withdrawing from the enzyme:

It seemed like Tyre had been without the enzyme for some time before he captured Ronon, yet he was not going through the violent withdrawal that he did once he was taken to Alantis. More of a slow, painful decline. Ronon also quickly began to have dramatic withdrawal symptoms once deprived of the Wraith feeding/return. Any ideas why?

And although I understand the reasons for not letting Tyre receive sedation and pain meds during his withdrawal as they needed information quickly, why make Ronon suffer the same? For the dramatic portrayal he gave us, I'm kind of glad they didn't, but for humanitarian reasons, it would have been kinder...
Unless his reactions were so pronounced that he was being given sedation but it just had no effect?

Because the Wraith enzyme was still in his system. You don't mix uppers and downers.

As for Tyre, he may have been further along in the withdrawal process. Also, at the time, Ronon was being pumped over and over with that stuff. Tyre was kind of being weaned on that stuff by the amount of time the Wraith decided to give it to him.

g.o.d
July 27th, 2008, 09:19 AM
I read on JM's blog that Cooper always "intended" for Ronon to just be a strong dude that the Wraith wanted to play with. But what's in a writer's mind and what shows up on screen can be two different animals. All this time I felt the Wraith couldn't feed on Ronon so this episode appeared to be another mistake on the part of the writers. Now it is canon, but it took THREE YEARS to make it so?



"I'm Teyla, daughter of Tagan", and that's how we are introduced to Teyla, but JM admits there is no show "bible" and he was not the show runner at that time, so I'd bet money "Torrin" is a name they came up with because no one could remember "Tagan". Can't you just see them in the writer's room:

"Uh, what was Teyla's father's name?"

"I don't know, um, something that started with a T I think"

"Hey, "Torrin" sounds good, and no one will remember anyway."

Yeah right.

Toss it in with various fans asking JM for the last three weeks to settle THAT question, and his refusal to answer it, and you get yet another MISTAKE.

The writers have become very sloppy this season and it seems every episode has some huge plot hole or boo-boo that could have easily been avoided with a little research, but what is really irritating is how TPTB seem to think they are as pure as Jesus and make no mistakes. Dudes, if you mess up, just admit it and move on, but making excuses or refusing to acknowledge the errors, just makes it worse and makes you come across as arrogant.

don't take Stargate too serious. It's a show where writers don't care about some previous episodes which always end in this way..plot holes.

Mitchell82
July 27th, 2008, 09:19 AM
Because the Wraith enzyme was still in his system. You don't mix uppers and downers.

As for Tyre, he may have been further along in the withdrawal process. Also, at the time, Ronon was being pumped over and over with that stuff. Tyre was kind of being weaned on that stuff by the amount of time the Wraith decided to give it to him.

Agreed.

Mitchell82
July 27th, 2008, 09:20 AM
don't take Stargate too serious. It's a show where writers don't care about some previous episodes which always end in this way..plot holes.

You forgot the IMO part.;):cool:

g.o.d
July 27th, 2008, 09:23 AM
You forgot the IMO part.;):cool:

have you seen a show with continous solid story-arc? I don't mean show where usual story-arc consists of one episode in the beginning, mid-season partner and one episode in the end...

Mitchell82
July 27th, 2008, 09:26 AM
have you seen a show with continous solid story-arc? I don't mean show where usual story-arc consists of one episode in the beginning, mid-season partner and one episode in the end...

Well I feel Stargate has done that several times but personally the only show I've ever seen with a huge season or even series long arc was Enterprise.

g.o.d
July 27th, 2008, 09:29 AM
Well I feel Stargate has done that several times but personally the only show I've ever seen with a huge season or even series long arc was Enterprise.

well, try Heroes, 4400, Invasion (I'm avoiding shows like B5 and BSG in this topic, because further discussion would be very controversial) and you'll find out what I mean by continous solid story-arc

SpelCzech
July 27th, 2008, 09:31 AM
Because the Wraith enzyme was still in his system. You don't mix uppers and downers.

As for Tyre, he may have been further along in the withdrawal process. Also, at the time, Ronon was being pumped over and over with that stuff. Tyre was kind of being weaned on that stuff by the amount of time the Wraith decided to give it to him.

Didn't Keller say, though, that they would have given Tyre something to ease the process during "normal" circumstances? I also wondered why they didn't give that something to poor Ronon. Loved the episode so much, though, so am not complaining.

OT:
Argggggggggg, ants all over the computer keyboard! :(

Amalthea
July 27th, 2008, 09:33 AM
They also time lapsed it with Ronon. We don't know how long it took him to really crash- it could have been weeks for all we know.

Mitchell82
July 27th, 2008, 09:36 AM
well, try Heroes, 4400, Invasion (I'm avoiding shows like B5 and BSG in this topic, because further discussion would be very controversial) and you'll find out what I mean by continous solid story-arc

I don't like those shows. I gave them a chance but don't care for them.

jenks
July 27th, 2008, 09:41 AM
well, try Heroes, 4400, Invasion (I'm avoiding shows like B5 and BSG in this topic, because further discussion would be very controversial) and you'll find out what I mean by continous solid story-arc

A serialized show in other words, a completely different format to what Stargate is and has ever been, and likely ever will be too.

g.o.d
July 27th, 2008, 09:45 AM
A serialized show in other words, a completely different format to what Stargate is and has ever been, and likely ever will be too.

ahd that's a format I like. But I liked SG-1 and SGA S1 and they weren't serialized shows, but at least there were story-arcs (for example S9 had a great story-arc, almost every episode was somehow related to the Ori)

jenks
July 27th, 2008, 09:50 AM
You'll likely be disappointed with SGU then...

g.o.d
July 27th, 2008, 09:51 AM
You'll likely be disappointed with SGU then...

who knows. if there will ber interesting enemies, episodes, I'll like it

Mitchell82
July 27th, 2008, 10:00 AM
ahd that's a format I like. But I liked SG-1 and SGA S1 and they weren't serialized shows, but at least there were story-arcs (for example S9 had a great story-arc, almost every episode was somehow related to the Ori)

I like it too if it's done right. Personally B5 BSG and Heroes didn't do it right.

starfox
July 27th, 2008, 10:17 AM
You're aware that there's an actual episode discussion thread if you're actually trying to talk about the show and not just try and draw attention to yourself, right?

morjana
July 27th, 2008, 10:51 AM
SGA - SciFi Heaven: Review of 'Broken Ties':

http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=8643127&postcount=265

Shan Bruce Lee
July 27th, 2008, 10:52 AM
I like it too if it's done right. Personally B5 BSG and Heroes didn't do it right.

I like Heroes - I think they do a good job with that format, maybe not perfect, but it's pretty good.

As far as this discussion of SGA being nothing but "stand alone" episodes with no drawn out story-arcs... 'Broken Ties' is a continuation of both 'Reunion' and Teyla's story-arc that played out over the course of s4 into s5.

It doesn't have to be a serialized show to do that. They're capable of doing episodes that have a beginning and an end yet still have those continuing elements woven into them.

Avenger
July 27th, 2008, 10:57 AM
With real world addicts, weaning or substituting one drug for another isn't nearly as effective as cutting a person off and having them go through the withdrawal process despite it being very rough for the person.