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GateWorld
June 28th, 2008, 02:17 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s4/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/413.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border:1px solid #000;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO SERIES 30</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s4/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">JOURNEY'S END</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 3013</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
The Doctor and his friends must stop Davros and the new Dalek empire from destroying reality itself, knowing that it may cost one of them their life.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s4/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Flyboy
July 5th, 2008, 11:50 AM
Until the official one is opened up.


Just to clarify, this is a discussion of the finale of S4 Doctor Who

THERE WILL BE SPOILERS!!!!! BUGGER OFF IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE SPOILED!








Overall, awesome episode. Loved to see all the companions and their interaction, I thought it kicked major ass. Although I could have done without Jack's quip about the three doctors. I also loved the use of music in the episode and towing the earth to safety. Here's hoping Davros survived to menace the universe again.



However. WHY WHY WHY was there a Doctor-Rose kiss? Did they REALLY have to do that? *sigh* how did ruin a mysterious and enigmatic character who's lasted generations - hook him up with a dozey twenty year old. Grrrr.

Still. I will continue to argue that it was only the human doctor who could love her. The time lord psyche could never allow him to love someone so young, considering the doctor considered himself a kid until he was 90 years old.

Anyway.


Discuss.

valen_sinclair
July 5th, 2008, 11:59 AM
I'm still humming over this episode.....agree with OP about the kiss, it was defiently something I could have done without, it was so not needed, but hopefully that will finally see the end of rose cause I really dislike her as a character.
ANYWAY....threefold man was interesting, we were all wrong on that one, although in a way even though Donna didn't fall in love with the doctor I am glad she has gone, but she did have one hellva part in that!!!
Shame we didn't get a what what WHAT at the end, but I am guessing it wouldn't have really been in keeping.....and again with those huge silver words...please sack the man who still thinks thats a good idea!
Glad K9 had a small part, and also glad gwen survived, cause life just wouldn't be the same without her.....
Hope we haven't seen the last of the daleks, although the Doctor2 wiped them out, it just wouldn't be Doctor Who without the daleks...
Overall it was a good episode with nearly the right ending, The most faithful compainon turned out to be the Doctor himself...odd but no one saw it coming lol....

mmmmmm

Blitz
July 5th, 2008, 12:06 PM
To be honest I LOVED the episode, but I still feel let down - and I'm not sure why.

THere just seemed parts that, even by DW standards seem a bit "erm" like the towing of the Earth - The Key was a let down as well :(

BUT! I nearly cried (I wud have but parents in same room) over Donna. You can tell how she had changed when you see here right then and there and I think that symbolises so much!

Cudda done without the kiss as well - BUT

Wasnt the Dr already half-human?

Hulabaloo
July 5th, 2008, 12:11 PM
Awesome, awesome, awesome! I don't know what to do with myself now, building it up over the week. Now what to do? :D (I've spilled lemonade over myself :P) At least Rose is happy and Donna part time lord! :D Satisfying in every way... *hums*

Jonzey
July 5th, 2008, 12:22 PM
Everlasting death for the most faithful companion... turns out to be an exaggeration yet again.

Flyboy
July 5th, 2008, 12:25 PM
No one died though....

That leaves me concerned...


Actually I'm surprised the Doctor is willing to talk to Martha after the key shinigan.

Risem
July 5th, 2008, 12:27 PM
I suppose in essence Donna did die. At least the Donna we loved. :(

Very good ep though.

Stricken
July 5th, 2008, 12:31 PM
Excatly its the Donna who had travelled through Time and Space who died. It makes me wonder if Jack, Marth and Mickey know that they have to avoid Donna?

Teddybrown
July 5th, 2008, 12:33 PM
This has to have been THE BEST SEASON FINALE EVER!!!
:lol:

Another nice crossover with everyone coming together to fight the Daleks

Need to rewatch it to take it all in. Luckily I got Sky Plus so i cant record over it or anything

Everyones back where they belong
Was kinda expecting the Doctor to regenerate into himself, knew the hand would have something to do with it
But wasnt expecting the bit with Donna becoming partial timelord
But now theres two time lords, one in roses dimension and one in ours
Glad the Tardis didnt get destroyed
Thought Donnas fate was a bit harsh though, forgetting her time with the Doctor

Dalek Caan betrayed the Daleks??? Finally a Dalek doing something right!

Why did they have to include the kiss??? Not very Doctor Who like
:lol:

Is it me or did the Dalek Crucible remind people of the Death Star?
No more Doctor Who Series till 2010 :(
Glad its still DT though and the Doctors all alone again
German Daleks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:lol:
When Donna and Doctor2 were in the Tardis together and when Donna was stopping the Daleks on the Dalek Crucible... Very funny. Also, when the Doctor told Jackie not to touch anything, that was a classic and was also very funny

The question now stands... Are the Daleks all gone??? Or will they make a miraculous comeback???

Mamid
July 5th, 2008, 12:38 PM
spill!!!!

I just read somewhere that donna's a partial time lord. which side of her family? mother's or father's?

Teddybrown
July 5th, 2008, 12:39 PM
spill!!!!

I just read somewhere that donna's a partial time lord. which side of her family? mother's or father's?

She gets it from the Doctors hand in the Tardis
No family link
But she not a Time Lord anymore
If she finds out about the Doctor, she will die

scarimor
July 5th, 2008, 12:40 PM
I'm desperate for sustenance so my first post will be real quick and easy - just cut'n'paste my posts from last week's thread:


The Threefold Man is coming. Do not be afraid! :) (that was for all those afearing the loss of David Tenant :))

and


Oh poor Donna: to lose so much to become what she must. Donna - "... the most important woman in all creation."
*howl of anguish*

Oh, and watching this episode was enhanced by the close proximity of a CRACKING thunderstorm here at the time :D

Stricken
July 5th, 2008, 12:40 PM
W00t First Post on what has to be the BEST SEASON FIANLE EVER!!!
:lol:
Everyones back where they belong
But wasnt expecting the bit with Donna
But now theres two time lords, one in roses dimension and one in ours

Y did they have to include the kiss???
:lol:
Is it me or did the Dalek Crucible remind people of the Death Star?
No more Doctor Who Series till 2010 :(

The one in the other parallel world (or Pete's World as it should be called :p) is only part Timelord, and it seems he is mostly human hence the one heart and the ageing.

Alipeeps
July 5th, 2008, 12:41 PM
Freaking awesome episode! So much awesomeness that I don't know where to start! Every character was used and all the storylines tied together and it was all so complex and I kept looking at my watch and thinking "But it's got over half an hour to go yet - what's ELSE is going to happen?!!" And it really rather felt like RTD's swansong - there was something for everyone, like he was trying to give something to all the fans. including the Rose/10 shippers!!

So many awesome moments that had me exclaiming at the TV! Daleks speaking German - Exterminieren!! :lol: Freaking awesome! Actually, on that point, I love that they don't translate or subtitle the foreign stuff - if you can understand it, it's an extra level of enjoyment but it's not vital to the plot and it just adds some lovely colour and realism. Anyway, other awesome moments - K9! Donna sparking the regeneration of the second Doctor (naked Doctor! Woot! :lol:) from the hand! DoctorDonna kicking Dalek ass! :D K9! TARDIS full of companions! :D Donna pulling Sarah-Jane aside to hug Jack! :lol:

So much more my brain is melting. Must re-watch and remind myself of all the other fab stuff!

Minor quibble with the plot, while I think - if the Daleks had detonated the reality bomb and made themselves the only race in existence... where would they have gone? There would have been no planets, nothing!! :confused:

GodAtum
July 5th, 2008, 12:42 PM
The Doctor didnt change :eek: and nothing to do with parallel worlds. We were so wrong :P

A very good episode. I feel very sorry for the Doctor now that he's lost everybody and he's on his own.

I wonder of the Master will make a return.

Teddybrown
July 5th, 2008, 12:42 PM
The one in the other parallel world (or Pete's World as it should be called :p) is only part Timelord, and it seems he is mostly human hence the one heart and the ageing.

But hes still part Time Lord so he is a Time Lord Kindof

Anubis69
July 5th, 2008, 12:42 PM
To be honest I LOVED the episode, but I still feel let down - and I'm not sure why.
Same. I think it was the fact that despite all the hype there really was no extreme peril. There wasn't that one moment where you believed any of them would die. Saying that... It was a fantastic episode. The bit I enjoyed most being Donna's noble sacrifice.* It's ... really quite horrific. I've always enjoyed bitter-sweet endings. I think that was one of the most potent.

*Someone on here said that weeks ago (Shadowmaat seems to springs to mind but don't quote me on it) and they are, quite frankly, awesome for predicting that. *hat-tipping action*

Stricken
July 5th, 2008, 12:44 PM
But hes still part Time Lord so he is a Time Lord Kindof

I guess its a grey area, the only part of him thats TimeLord is his memories other than that he's pretty much human.




Minor quibble with the plot, while I think - if the Daleks had detonated the reality bomb and made themselves the only race in existence... where would they have gone? There would have been no planets, nothing!!

I wonder that, the daleks live to exterminate everything that isn't Dalek with nothing else in the Universe what would they have done with their time :lol:

GateGipsy
July 5th, 2008, 12:44 PM
WOW THAT WAS BRILLIANT!!

First off Mamid - neither side. She gets it in a sort of timelord accident. You will have to watch and see!

I'm sure that after repeated viewing I'll be able to pick this apart, but what amazing pacing. It just took my breath away. And it was so lovely having everyone there. Mickey is back in our universe, yay!! He just gets hotter with each episode - maybe there's a Torchwood future? Hee hee I loved that line 'that's enough hugging'.

Three doctors!! They need to have given a bit more Doctor2 and Rose time though, to have set that up better because that's the one area I had to suspend my disbelief. There's just no way that Rose would have chosen Doctor2 over Doctor1 just on the basis of what happened on the beach, however I accept that within the confines of the TV show they couldn't do it any other way, so I'll just mentally fill in that gap for them :)

And after all the amazing events that happened the one thing I kept thinking after the episode was finished was:

The Daleks speaking German! How freakin cool is that!

Alipeeps
July 5th, 2008, 12:53 PM
The Daleks speaking German! How freakin cool is that!

I know! That one thing alone makes the entire episode awesome! :lol: I was still chortling and clapping my hands over that half an hour later! :D

And Freema's German pronunciation wasn't too bad either (in the episode anyway, if you watched Doctor Who Confidential, it was pretty awful in the initial script read-through! :lol:)

Steve_the_Wraith
July 5th, 2008, 12:53 PM
Actually I was dissapointed with the episode unfortunately

First and foremost I hate what they did with Donna.
I disliked Donna when she first appeared in doctor who but over the course of the season she's grown to being the best of all the companions in the new show. In one episode they ruin that, from giving her a personality transplant so she wasn't herself anymore (it became Catherine Tate playing Doctor Who) to erasing all the very good character development she's had.
And how exactly was she the most important woman in creation?

Other than that there was a alot of sloppy writing, especially in resolving the cliff hanger (time bubble defense in Torchwood?, Mickey just hapening to jump next to Sarah Jane?), Sarah Jane's Warp stone was also very hastly introduced.

The Ostehagen key was a big let down from the suspensful build up last week.

I won't touch the rose doctor disasterwith a ten foot pole.

Reefgirl
July 5th, 2008, 01:02 PM
I saved my 9000th posting for this special occasion

Where to start? With all the speculation here during the week

The Doctor regerating into himself - Correct
Two Identical Doctors - Correct
Donna being a timelord - Correct-ish
Donna dying - Correct-ish
Rose and the Doctor living happily ever after - Correct-ish

This was miles better than last year's finale, although I did get a little Deja Vu when Martha landed in Germany, carrying a backpack and dressed in Black. German speaking Daleks :lol: I said to my Mum, "That's not something you see every day, Dalek's speaking German".

Catherine Tate has been brilliant throughout this series and I'm really sorry that she's not in it anymore but boy did she make this episode worth watching and Bernard Cribbens has be fantastic too, I really hope we see Wilf again in the future.

What a twist in Khan seeing the distruction of the Daleks and setting up everything just so it would happen.

I could really have done without all that 'Love Story' stuff in Norway and the kiss, thank God Rose is finally gone and she's finally got her Doctor and RTD has gone so we get no more of this shipping tripe.

It's great to see Mickey back in our universe after the death of his beloved Gran, who wants to bet him and Martha replace Tosh and Owen in Torchwood, or better still he joins Sarah-Jane in her adventures, after all "Smith's stick together"

And it's finally on record that Gwyneth and Gwen are related.

What was with all the shot's of Donna's ring? will that and The Master's ring play a big part in the Specials for next year?

Is it me orWas that Fraiser Hines in the Christmas Trailer?

Sealurk
July 5th, 2008, 01:03 PM
Actually I was dissapointed with the episode unfortunately

First and foremost I hate what they did with Donna.
I disliked Donna when she first appeared in doctor who but over the course of the season she's grown to being the best of all the companions in the new show. In one episode they ruin that, from giving her a personality transplant so she wasn't herself anymore (it became Catherine Tate playing Doctor Who) to erasing all the very good character development she's had.
And how exactly was she the most important woman in creation?

Other than that there was a alot of sloppy writing, especially in resolving the cliff hanger (time bubble defense in Torchwood?, Mickey just hapening to jump next to Sarah Jane?), Sarah Jane's Warp stone was also very hastly introduced.

The Ostehagen key was a big let down from the suspensful build up last week.

I won't touch the rose doctor disasterwith a ten foot pole.

Agree with pretty much everything there. Still enjoyed it, but I felt the whole episode revolved around ridiculous (for Who!!) plot contrivances. Osterhagen was tame and pathetic, could have been much better; since when does Torchwood have time technology?; and what a terrible, awful, unforgivable ending for Donna! Inexcusable! Best companion ever, though a little loud and, well, Catherine Tate-y every so often, and they do THAT to her? C'mon - Astrid got a better send off!! Better for her to retain the knowledge and spend her last few days, weeks, months or whatever loving what she did and passing it on to her family.

Naonak
July 5th, 2008, 01:14 PM
An awesome finale (with the exception of the craptacular Bad Wolf Bay scene).

David Tennant, Catherine Tate and Bernard Cribbins put in exceptional performances.

Donna’s fate was really heartbreaking - probably worse than if she had actually died, in a way… And I loved it. Brilliant.

Davros - Julian Bleach was great again, by the way - talking about what the Doctor does to his companions was really poignant.

Slightly disappointed we never got any more on the “arrangement” between Davros and the Supreme Dalek…

Considering that Catherine Tate never realised there were people inside the Sontarans, I’m amazed she managed to spout out all that technobabble! :D

Random ‘squee’ moments:
German Daleks! “Exterminieren!” :D
“I can’t tell you what I’m thinking right now…” :D
The Gwen/The Unquiet Dead reference.
K9!
Donna pushing Sarah away to hug Jack! And the “No, really, you can hug me” line at the start… Actually, that’s it - I’m a Donna/Jack shipper. ;):D

I’m pretending the whole Bad Wolf Bay scene never happened (except for the Doctor/Jackie exchange, that was nice). It was just… bleurgh.

But then the brilliance of those last scenes… David Tennant and Bernard Cribbins were just amazing. Fantastic. Brilliant. They almost had me going… http://www.thescifiworld.net/img/smilies/stargate/mckay/mckay51.gif God, I hope the Moff finds some way of bringing Wilf back for an episode.

GodAtum
July 5th, 2008, 01:15 PM
And it's finally on record that Gwyneth and Gwen are related.

What was with all the shot's of Donna's ring? will that and The Master's ring play a big part in the Specials for next year?


Who's Gwyneth? I really hope the Master's ring makes an appearance.

Alipeeps
July 5th, 2008, 01:17 PM
Who's Gwyneth? I really hope the Master's ring makes an appearance.

The character Eve Myles (who plays Gwen) originally played in the Season 1 episode The Unquiet Dead. :D

Naonak
July 5th, 2008, 01:18 PM
Who's Gwyneth?
The psychic girl from The Unquiet Dead (the Dickens episode), who was played by Eve Myles.

EDIT: Dammit, Ali! :p

GodAtum
July 5th, 2008, 01:23 PM
Oh OK! Thanks :)

I do wish the Osterhagen key was something slightly more ingenious instead of just some nukes. They built it up too much I think.

kirmit
July 5th, 2008, 01:33 PM
Oh OK! Thanks :)

I do wish the Osterhagen key was something slightly more ingenious instead of just some nukes. They built it up too much I think.

I think the build up was justified by the result of the Osterhagen key, effectively destroying the entire planet, not actually what it was.

I'd give this episode 10/10, coupled with last weeks makes incredible viewing. I know many people won't be happy about this but imo stargate needs to take a page out of Doctor Who's book on how to do season finales, it's literally mind blowingly good.

Sealurk
July 5th, 2008, 01:39 PM
I think the build up was justified by the result of the Osterhagen key, effectively destroying the entire planet, not actually what it was.

I'd give this episode 10/10, coupled with last weeks makes incredible viewing. I know many people won't be happy about this but imo stargate needs to take a page out of Doctor Who's book on how to do season finales, it's literally mind blowingly good.

In the hands of UNIT, with Jack and Harriet getting so upset over it, I thought the Key would unleash some kind of advanced, untested alien tech, or that it might well be a doomsday weapon...just an advanced, untested, alien one. Nukes in the ground? Meh. Why not say it tapped into the Racnoss vessel at the planet's core and unleashed hell that way?

Mickey and SJS escaping with Daleks surrounding them? Rubbish. I thoroughly enjoyed the episode for the ride, for the plot twists and such, but I did think it was very poorly written. A few alterations (Torchwood timelock? Blind Daleks? Donna's end?!?!) would have instead had me smiling, not seething.

Stargate can't hold a candle to Who.

Lils
July 5th, 2008, 01:42 PM
with the re-regeneration and channeling all the energy into the hand after healing himself does it mean that the Doc is on his 11th regeneration? is DT the 10th and 11th Doc?

Naonak
July 5th, 2008, 01:49 PM
I thoroughly enjoyed the episode for the ride, for the plot twists and such, but I did think it was very poorly written. A few alterations (Torchwood timelock? Blind Daleks? Donna's end?!?!) would have instead had me smiling, not seething.
Did you think that Donna's fate was actually bad writing, or did you just not like that happening to her?


Although, speaking of fates, they never did explain why it was that the Doctor and Donna kept getting drawn together, did they? (although, really, she was trying to find him in Partners in Crime, so I'm not sure what the fuss is about that one)

Alipeeps
July 5th, 2008, 02:17 PM
The psychic girl from The Unquiet Dead (the Dickens episode), who was played by Eve Myles.

EDIT: Dammit, Ali! :p

Nyah nyah! :lol: :p


with the re-regeneration and channeling all the energy into the hand after healing himself does it mean that the Doc is on his 11th regeneration? is DT the 10th and 11th Doc?

That's a darn good question and one DT himself said in Doctor Who Confidential he's sure will be cause for a lot of discussion in the future.


Did you think that Donna's fate was actually bad writing, or did you just not like that happening to her?

The more I think about it, the more heartbreaking it is what happened to Donna and I think RTD's right, it is like a death. Death of the Donna we knew. Worse than death, maybe? I love that the show went there though, that it did something so different and so kinda dark and sorrowful.



Although, speaking of fates, they never did explain why it was that the Doctor and Donna kept getting drawn together, did they? (although, really, she was trying to find him in Partners in Crime, so I'm not sure what the fuss is about that one)

I'm not sure they ever did explain that properly. They said something about a someone or something working to bring them together and allow this to happen? Maybe they meant Dalek Caan? He admitted at the end that he facilitiated all of this... but how could he have affected Donna and the Doctor and brought them together? I thought he couldn't manipulate time or anything (he merely manipulated Davros and the Daleks)?

Naonak
July 5th, 2008, 02:44 PM
Nyah nyah! :lol: :p
*angry incoherent mumblings*

The more I think about it, the more heartbreaking it is what happened to Donna and I think RTD's right, it is like a death. Death of the Donna we knew. Worse than death, maybe? I love that the show went there though, that it did something so different and so kinda dark and sorrowful.
Yeah, I thought it was great writing. Even Wilf, who completely loves her to bits, said she was "better" with the Doctor, but now she probably never will be again. So, so tragic.

I'm not sure they ever did explain that properly. They said something about a someone or something working to bring them together and allow this to happen? Maybe they meant Dalek Caan? He admitted at the end that he facilitiated all of this... but how could he have affected Donna and the Doctor and brought them together? I thought he couldn't manipulate time or anything (he merely manipulated Davros and the Daleks)?
Oh, yeah, Dalek Caan... Somehow...


Davros - Julian Bleach was great again, by the way - talking about what the Doctor does to his companions was really poignant.
Oh, as was Dalek Caan talking about all the people who die for him...

Sealurk
July 5th, 2008, 02:44 PM
Did you think that Donna's fate was actually bad writing, or did you just not like that happening to her?

Um...

Alright, I admit it. I just thought that was a particularly bad ending for a character I had grown to love, and thought was the best companion the Doctor's had since he was Peter Davison.

Then again, this being Science Fiction, and Doctor Who in particular, maybe series five or six will open with the TARDIS landing in London and the Doctor (still Tennant, hopefully) racing out towards Donna's house with a chunk of alien technology that will allow her to remember safely, giving her the happy ending I think she deserves!

But towing Earth? Awesome. All companions flying the Tardis? Brilliant. K9's cameo? Great. The whole episode?

Fantastic!

Matt G
July 5th, 2008, 02:51 PM
OK...

1. The non-regeneration. Don't make us freakout like that!

2. German Daleks. Cool but would the Daleks really have bothered switching through all the languages of Earth. Have we ever heard the Daleks say "Exterminate" in an alien languages before?

3. Two Doctors...or rather a non-Doctor, he sounded off from the first second but he did the business well enough!

4. One very crowded TARDIS. And a very cool return home sequence.

5. Bummer about Donna. Meh about Mickey. I suppose the Doc 2 going to live in the alternate reality was inevitable but the smooch was...hmmm.

One hell of a finale though! :)

MerryK
July 5th, 2008, 03:16 PM
Gah, I loved and hated this episode! Loved it way more than I hated it, but Rose has become intolerable to me. I loved her in the first season, and she was okay in the second season, but ever since she's been a selfish mess. Did not deserve Doctor #2! That one scene could have ruined the episode for me.

Thankfully, it was followed by the brilliant Doctor/Donna ending, which had me bawling and depressed, even as I am in awe at how amazingly well-written it was. I've adored Donna ever since Partners in Crime, and I am heartbroken that she is leaving, but what a way to go! I love a good tragic ending, and this ranks up with the best of them. I hope we get to see her and/or her family again...

The story in the rest of the episode was slightly confusing, but there were a lot of good bits. The German Daleks were awesome! I muttered a bit at the result of the regeneration, but it wasn't so bad after I think about it.

8.5/10

GateGipsy
July 5th, 2008, 03:39 PM
OK...

1. The non-regeneration. Don't make us freakout like that!

Worst week ever! Read an article in the Times today speculating on whether it was the end for Tennant. Totally heart stopping! Makes for absolutely brilliant TV. That's a REAL cliffhanger.


2. German Daleks. Cool but would the Daleks really have bothered switching through all the languages of Earth. Have we ever heard the Daleks say "Exterminate" in an alien languages before?

It wouldn't make any difference to them what language they spoke, I imagine they're programmed to just switch between all of them. They probably don't even realise - it is just an automatic switch. No idea if we've heard them speak another language before.


3. Two Doctors...or rather a non-Doctor, he sounded off from the first second but he did the business well enough!

Doctor 2.0? New though but not improved. Doctor Vista?


4. One very crowded TARDIS. And a very cool return home sequence.

ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!


5. Bummer about Donna. Meh about Mickey. I suppose the Doc 2 going to live in the alternate reality was inevitable but the smooch was...hmmm.

One hell of a finale though! :)

Oh what a companion ending that was! It was a total roller coaster of a double-episode. Tonight took us up (yay he didn't change, they were all saved) down, then up again, then down, then way way way up (everyone driving the Tardis, well except poor Jackie) and then oh boy what a big trip down. How heartbreaking! I didn't warm to Donna the way I loved Martha (and also Rose but Martha is my fave), but I still really liked her and thought it was refreshing to have a different perspective on the doctor. I'm still traumatised by Adric's end. Don't know if I'll get over this one but at least she's still alive and with the change in attitude her mum will have, things will be better.

Alipeeps
July 5th, 2008, 04:09 PM
OK...

1. The non-regeneration. Don't make us freakout like that!

I know! I've been in a state this week - thankfully I've been so busy I've not had much time to dwell on it but I'd reached the point where I'd convinced myself this was it and DT was leaving, just to attempt to cushion the blow if it did happen! :lol:

Oh btw, I loved his slightly smug little, "I didn't want to change. Why would I? Look at me!" :D :lol:


2. German Daleks. Cool but would the Daleks really have bothered switching through all the languages of Earth. Have we ever heard the Daleks say "Exterminate" in an alien languages before?

Probably not. But then, have we ever seen the Daleks interacting with non- English speaking humans without the Doctor around? The TARDIS translates - but if the Doctor's not there (as he wasn't in Germany) then no translation.


Worst week ever! Read an article in the Times today speculating on whether it was the end for Tennant. Totally heart stopping! Makes for absolutely brilliant TV. That's a REAL cliffhanger.

Oh heck, yes. This week has been hell! :lol: The whole freaking country has been speculating on whether Tennant is leaving! I bet the viewing figures for this ep will be IMMENSE!



Doctor 2.0? New though but not improved. Doctor Vista?

BWAH!!! :lol:

GateGipsy
July 5th, 2008, 04:13 PM
Probably not. But then, have we ever seen the Daleks interacting with non- English speaking humans without the Doctor around? The TARDIS translates - but if the Doctor's not there (as he wasn't in Germany) then no translation.

Very good point.

Still German Daleks, totally cool. I can't imagine that they'd sound so cool speaking Italian or French. It needs to be a hard, gutteral language. Maybe Russian? Or Polish?

I was so totally caught up in this episode, that by the time they got them onto the Crucible and the Dalek shot Captain Jack, I leapt off my seat shouting No! as I'd completely forgotten that he couldn't die!

ThePope
July 5th, 2008, 04:36 PM
I dont know what it is about dr who, but i just cant get into it:confused: I watched most of the 1st new series some realy odd eps in that one, like the gas mask one realy freeked me out!!!!! But i tuned into tonights finale to catch a glimbse of Davros who i saw many many years ago in one of the old eps, just to see if he was still as creepy as he was back then. And after watching the finale i realised why i couldnt get into it, its rubbish!!

I will admit i did like some of the story, like the weapon, very cool, and i do agree that if the Daleks wanted to be the only life forms in the universe why would they build it, they would have nothing to do, a totaly boring place, absalutely pointless........kinda like Belgium in a way.

I think the main problem is is that i find it unbalieveable, and there are a few reasons for this. When you watch sci-fi shows like startrek and stargate you think to yourself " yeah that could happen, faster than light travel on a starship" or "traveling to another planet through a wormhole" and then you have " a tiny time traveling phone booth wrapping some kind of magicle rope around a planet with the help of a robot dog made from a shoe box and 14 year old boy so that Earth can be dragged across space at warp speed with the only affect being a small shower of rain" It doesnt seem to me like there is any sort of science fact behind the show what so ever, could the BBC not spare any boffins from one of there documentaries to give a few ideas across?!

The casting is also a big problem, i dont feel that i can connect with any of the characters apart from the doctor, played very well by David tennant, and rose. There are just to many comedy actors, it doesnt feel like a serious sci-fi show like startrek and stargate do, comedy actors in sci-fi just dont work. Tate, Kay and that captain jack used to be a childrens tv presenter!!!!!! Was there a shortage of non comedy actors when they were casting the roles?? And its not only dr who that has suffered from comedy actors, stargate and the unfortunate Atlantis eps with Lucius!!!!

Also, the Daleks, a very cool villain, one of the best in sci-fi ill admit that. They seem to hate Earth an awfull lot but they seem to be aproaching the whole "exterminate" the human race thing all wrong. If they are surposed to be so advanced, the most powerfull and evil beings in the universe, couldnt they just wipe us all out from space?? Would save alot of time and money on rubbish props, and there would be no stares to tackle either!

Some things that could help out the show is some American sci-fi writers jumping over and giving our guys some tips. More money from the £2 billion that us generous Brits kindly give to the BBC every year to make these shows. I know ive said this before and people have told me that this is the way Dr Who has always been filmed, but before the new series popped up the budget for Dr Who was 10p and a box of drumstick lollys, the box being recycled to make the very convincing K9 robot dog! This show has so much potential and we just seem to be ruining it, as a Brit i sooooooooo want to love the show but in its current form its totaly dissapointing.

One last point, did anyone else notice the bit at the end with donna dieing? Of course you did. Why was she going to die again? All the doctors knowledge, the knowledge of the universe, was overloading her brain and killing her.........sound familiar?! Is there no such thing as an original idea any more??

ThePope

Sealurk
July 5th, 2008, 05:06 PM
Of course, it just occurred to me (always in the wee small hours) exactly why the Doctor removed his mind from Donna's head - I don't doubt he could find a 'cure' for her if he wanted (travelling through time and space, moving planets back into their correct positions, what's a little genetic manipulation?), I just think he removed his mind to try and spare her remembering the Time War, the loss of Gallifrey and the other things he's done and seen that he knows no-one else should.

Oh, and I reckon the Doctor is still #10 regeneration-wise, but he essentially used up a regeneration making Doctor Two, so he's shortened his life.

As for The Pope's comments...I can see your points, but I (politely!) disagree. British SF has always stood out from US and Canadian, and Doctor Who at its best (I don't think Journey's End counts, but it was good) really shows why. Can you see Stargate pulling off something like Blink (Who Season 3 ep with the weeping angels)? Frankly, while I like a great deal of US SF (SG-1, BSG, but not ST, SW), I place it in a totally different league. Much as I love scientifically accurate, believable SF, I also like the stuff that doesn't even pretend to be accurate, and says the story is more important. Notice the technobabble in Who is always tongue-in-cheek.

Doctor Who sits alongside Farscape and B5 for being daring and original to me, and actually trying to break conventions, not feature cliche devices like SGA does. If American writers had a crack at Doctor Who, the Tardis would quickly end up with weapons, shields, a cloaking device, the Doctor would carry a gun (and use it without hesitation) and every episode would hit the cosmic reset button right at the end. Sure, Who has adopted a few US-isms, but if Who writers took a crack at SGA...well. THAT would be worth seeing...

Willow'sCat
July 5th, 2008, 05:34 PM
I love this show so much I want to marry it! :D

OK I have not read anyone else's comments on this finale, I find other's thoughts can dampen my own happiness *funny that* so here goes...

Well no surprise that DT stayed, no real surprise that the hand was involved, I was a little disappointed in how RTD went about making all that happen, but then, well I got what I wanted:

An end to Rose/The Doctor shipping on Doctor Who (as we know it) and Donna goes out as the BEST COMPANION OF ALL TIME (bar ACE whom I still adore to death ).

On the companion dying... is it Rose dying before The DoctorII in the AUverse... then River Song meets him when he is old? They were working on a TARDIS of sorts in the AUverse right? I mean seriously we now have two DT versions of The Doctor out there and if one *ours* can for a brief moment end up in an AUverse then DoctorII can end up here? Right? In the future, which could also be in the past and stuff like THAT! :S:P I am going with Rose dying, in many years but still she is the one who dies.

I think. :P

OK story wise this was a bit too much to take on board all at once, unlike last week this one seemed to me to be a little too squished, a bit jam packed with tech talk all of a sudden. Not that I mind so much as I am not about the tech talk myself, don't watch for the sudo-science of scifi... I watch for the adventure! lol

Anyway...

Rose, not as important as I thought she would be, basically in this part she stood around and then went back home. Maybe that is the way it should have been as really Donna was the focus and she is the current companion. I didn't not like the way RTD ended the shipping but I also felt it came down once again to having to except *faux* as real and I am sorry, so sorry but I can't handle clones, I can't handle copies, we, people, Time Lords are all unique we cannot be just copied and replaced like some rich women's pet dog... sorry but morally and ethically I just have a hard time accepting that kind of stuff AND I KNOW it is only a show but it asked a little too much from me there, if it was anyone else... well it is The Doctor and he is totally 100% unique not to be copied or replaced. *shrugs* Just how I feel.

Oh but two DTs in one ep is better then one!
LOL I know what Jack was gonna say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :p:D:D *fanfic heaven*

Martha, Mickey (& Jackie) only there so RTD can set up them going off and ruining Torchwood next series. NO! OK I am trying to think about all those folks who were pissed off about CT being on DW and how wrong they were... :P But bloody hell! We lose Tosh and Owen for them?!?!? :( It will only work if RTD writes the dam series... he better write at least part of it anyway.:P Also Jack better stop saying Martha has the voice of a nightingale! He also better kiss Ianto again. There that's all I want. :P:D

SJS, well I liked her here but she seems a bit tacked on, I did like the Davros moment though *yay for Genesis of the Daleks* :)

Gwen and Ianto... well nice they didn't die, but not unexpected. Also nice to see The Doctor and Rose recognise Gwen as a relation of Gwyneth. :) RTD is really tiding up the loose ends ain't he?

The Doctor/Donna :D Well brilliant is all I can say. David is truly a wonderful actor, the part with Catherine where he talks like her must have been such fun to film, I imagine a lot of laughing going on that day. :P

Both David and Catherine acted their collective butts off in this one, in the whole series actually. I hope the people who were filled with hatred or at least malice towards the casting of CT found her performance to be every bit as capable and brilliant as I did in the end. Donna will be missed by me, I cried! Yep, they made me cry again. *******s! :P

David Tennant, David Tennant, bless the world for David Tennant.

We are so lucky to have had two wonderful actors in this new series taking on the role of The Doctor. Chris was great and David has been so wonderful at moving from the more angst feeling of Chris's Doctor to the more compassionate and dare I say human feelings of this Doctor. Honestly I am not sure another actor could have done that, not this convincingly anyway. Yay for more years of DT in Who! :D

I don't know if I would say this is a better finale then PotW (well I wouldn't) but as a tying up of loose ends and reaching for fresh starts, not bad at all.

I will come back with my "I can't believe they did that and we are ment to go along with it" comments later. I haven't even had my morning cup of coffee yet! :eek: And this post is long enough as it is.

insomniac8400
July 5th, 2008, 05:37 PM
Now we wait until the doctor figures out how to go back to the time war and lead the time lords to victory.

Willow'sCat
July 5th, 2008, 05:49 PM
As for The Pope's comments...I can see your points, but I (politely!) disagree. British SF has always stood out from US and Canadian, and Doctor Who at its best (I don't think Journey's End counts, but it was good) really shows why. Can you see Stargate pulling off something like Blink (Who Season 3 ep with the weeping angels)? Frankly, while I like a great deal of US SF (SG-1, BSG, but not ST, SW), I place it in a totally different league. Much as I love scientifically accurate, believable SF, I also like the stuff that doesn't even pretend to be accurate, and says the story is more important. Notice the technobabble in Who is always tongue-in-cheek.

Doctor Who sits alongside Farscape and B5 for being daring and original to me, and actually trying to break conventions, not feature cliche devices like SGA does. If American writers had a crack at Doctor Who, the Tardis would quickly end up with weapons, shields, a cloaking device, the Doctor would carry a gun (and use it without hesitation) and every episode would hit the cosmic reset button right at the end. Sure, Who has adopted a few US-isms, but if Who writers took a crack at SGA...well. THAT would be worth seeing...
Green! Also I would love for RTD to do just one ep of SGA. I actually might want to watch it again.;)

*goes off to pour coffee*

aschen
July 5th, 2008, 05:54 PM
I was right, I was right!!! :D

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=8522610

GRRREAT EPISODE! :D :D :D

Col.Foley
July 5th, 2008, 06:34 PM
A number does not exist that is high enough for the wonders of this episode. And I would be here till my arms fell off talking about it. And this makes me say something that I never thought I would say. Russel, I'll miss you.

ShadowMaat
July 5th, 2008, 06:52 PM
Hmmm. Right up until the whole Rose/Doctor crap I was loving this ep and thinking it was one of the best finales ever. I'm working hard to scrub that whole sequence from my memory and pretend the Doctor just dumped his other self in the AU as an extra layer of protection or something and so that Rose could help him clean up his act. In a strictly platonic and not vomit-inducing way.

I'm also not happy with what happened to Donna. It seems like a cheap way to dispose of someone who was, IMO, an absolutely brilliant character. I think I'd rather have her die honestly than through some cop-outy "the Donna we've all come to know died." It put me instantly in mind of Rose again and her whole "death" which was nothing more than her getting booted to another reality. However, I have a feeling we may see her again anyway given that ring on her finger. And just in case anyone had any doubts about whether or not it was really the Master's ring or not, they had to have that little scene where the ring goes GL(H)INT GL(H)INT GL(H)INT. :rolleyes:

One question, though: how in the holy hells are Mum and Wilf supposed to explain the massive amount of time Donna's lost? If her memory of the Doctor is completely wiped, he'd have to dig all the way back to the wedding to do it. And she spent, what, weeks? Months? Afterward poking around and whatever, egged on by her encounter with the Doctor until she finally met him again during the Adipose thing. Even if you pick up from that incident on it's gotta be a good chunk of time. At the very least a few days. Donna isn't the type to accept that kind of loss without a fight. And a lot of questions. Or in addition to wiping her memory did he implant false ones? Kinda tricky, that.

I did love most of the ep, though. The Osterhagen Key as a global suicide pill of sorts was interesting. And Sarah Jane's Necklace of Doom. I think Davros was right about the Doctor turning people into weapons. At least partly. Their willingness to commit genocide in order to stop even greater destruction is definitely a Doctory sort of thing... but likewise they also saw fit to WARN first. Also Doctory.

LOVED LOVED LOVED Donna in this ep. Her whole interaction with the hand (which is finally resolved and can't be used again) and the result of that interaction. Another Doctor! Woohoo! And him channeling Donna had me LMAO. :D I think the waste of a regeneration (and his explanation of why) was a bit of a cop-out, but at least it was put to brilliant use.

Does this mean that Mickey and Martha will be joining Torchwood? I feel bad for him. He was so kickass in this ep (and in general) and it was wonderful to see him again, but I hope he manages to find someone who will love him for being HIM 'cos he sure as heck deserves it. Even Jackie managed to be pretty cool and has obviously learned a few tricks from her daughter. ;)

The hint of the Christmas Special actually left me cringing. I take it RTD is writing that, too, right? Please, dear merciful gods, ENOUGH WITH THE EFFING DALEKS AND CYBERMEN!! If it isn't one it's the other. Or both. ENOUGH, I say. Both have already been over-used and this is just making it worse.

I pray that SM will have a bit more originality in him and won't keep falling back to all that. :rolleyes: Seriously. I think this is the first time I've ever NOT looked forward to the Christmas ep. And that makes me sad. *sigh*

Willow'sCat
July 5th, 2008, 08:47 PM
Now I have had my coffee and a while to think things over.;)

So...? Is the death of Donna Noble as we know her the death of the companion? 'Cause I have to say I missed that bit. :p After watching the Confidential it does seem that is what RTD was getting at.

While I hate what they did to Donna and I think RTD knew most fans would hate it, I see why they did it. It not only adds a lot of angst to The Doctor for the coming specials/series *again* it means Donna has to be brilliant all in her own time and off her own bat. :) Although given what The Doctor did for Martha I am sure their is a top notch career just waiting for Donna out there. ;) She can have that job, that man and those children she seems so desperate to have. I don't think that is a bad thing at all. If she stayed with The Doctor *forever* she wouldn't have that, which is fine as well in its own way but, well Donna would probably have far too many regrets in the end. *I could be projecting there* :P OK, yes you can argue that being such a great companion that Donna deserved so much more. I don't disagree. I just think that as SJS found out... you need more then just time/space travel to live a life. Especially if you are human and dare I say it female. Martha and in some ways Jack have come to similar conclusions. I think regardless of her words Donna would have also left eventually.

It is sad and frustrating that they took her memories of The Doctor but that is scifi TV for ya! At least the door is open. I mean she isn't actually dead, I don't mind doors being left open in this case. ;)

Now as far as Rose goes? Well as I said in my long(winded) post, I am glad the shipping has had some kind of final chapter. I was never a fan of *our* Doctor being in love with Rose, not just 'cause it was Rose but 'cause it was The Doctor. I don't think The Doctor should ever be seen falling in love with anyone, not until he is at least on his last legs in his last regeneration. It just isn't fair to ALL those other companions who fell for him and who he pretty much ignored. I think it puts Rose in a position as companion that she doesn't deserve (within the show). That is just my opinion of course. I know others think they are perfect for one and other and all that shippy stuff... I get that, I really do but Doctor Who has never been that blunt and forward with this kind of thing before and as a show I never want to see this happen again. EVER! :cool:

Billie said in the Confidential that she thinks Rose could come back one day... I just hope she doesn't or if so I hope she is madly in love with DoctorII and all thoughts of *our* Doctor, in that way, are a thing of the past. ;) I can see the show now leaving Rose behind. I can see RTD not wasting time in the specials on her, on mentioning her and I can definitely see SM not having anything to say on the matter when he takes over. So, without being mean.;) Happy days! :)

Alright, two things... er... three things RTD does that piss me off! One he puts The Doctor in situations where it is almost impossible for him to be a hero. Two, he then turns around and calls him on it.

I don't think The Doctor as a character has ever been a saint. He is closer to an anti-hero then anything else, BUT he is also not the only reason his companions do stupid things like wanting to kill billions of humans.

I don't think Martha was going to blow up the Earth 'cause The Doctor wanted her to, it was because she could see the (stupid) logic in that plan (UNIT plan by the way not The Doctor's). I also think Jack has always been willing to kill himself (even before he was immortal, as proven in Empty Child/Doctor Dances) for the greater good. Actually you could argue that in Jack's case in Doctor Dances, it was The Doctor that encouraged him to risk his life to save millions of people. Yes it was Jack's fault in the first place but it was The Doctor's words and look that made Jack do what he did in the end.

I guess that is where I stand on whether The Doctor is a bad, bad man/Time Lord or pure as the driven snow. He does more good then bad and he only really does bad when he cannot see a way out of it... Time War for example. IMHO evil is when you do something knowing there are other options and you still chose the one option that will get everyone killed... er... something like that. :P

As for the actions of The DoctorII, I liked the explanation at the end that he is like the 9th was after the Time War. That makes sense, it even redeems some of what RTD wrote around the last two Doctors.

However it is also like having your cake and eating it too. :cool: Have one Doctor commit genocide (that so isn't going to come back and bite *our* Doctor in the arse :rolleyes:) while the other Doctor can be shown to save the Earth (and be good) as it wasn't really him but it was, but it wasn't... blah!

I can't believe I agree with Davros! Arh! How has it come to this!?!

*shakes fist*
*dam you Russell!* :p

Earthgate Ricky
July 5th, 2008, 08:58 PM
with the re-regeneration and channeling all the energy into the hand after healing himself does it mean that the Doc is on his 11th regeneration? is DT the 10th and 11th Doc?

No, It's clone Doctor, not 11th Doctor ( half-human and half Time Lord); he had all of original Doctor's memories, just one heart and one life. He can't regenerate himself but can age to be with Rose until natures of their deaths. The original Doctor punished clone Doctor to stay in paralled world with Rose and her family for exterminating Dalek race as Original was shocked. Doctor asks Rose to help clone Doctor to be better person like she did with 9th Doctor. Now TARDIS' gone, as Rose started a new life with her human Doctor. I believe that they will get married and have children soon.

Willow'sCat
July 5th, 2008, 09:26 PM
Master's ring or not, they had to have that little scene where the ring goes GL(H)INT GL(H)INT GL(H)INT.I noticed that ring but are you saying it is The Master's or that it was just like the way they showed The Master's ring? *needs to re-watch some eps*

One question, though: how in the holy hells are Mum and Wilf supposed to explain the massive amount of time Donna's lost? Wondered that myself. Then again they could just say the finance was a ******* and ran off, or that she had amnesia... or some other LIE! :cool:


Donna isn't the type to accept that kind of loss without a fight. And a lot of questions. Or in addition to wiping her memory did he implant false ones? Kinda tricky, that.Have to say this is par for the course in Who. He loves 'em dumps 'em and leaves others to sort things out. He is a right ******* sometimes. :P:D



they also saw fit to WARN first. Also Doctory.
Exactly! Even Martha said she had to do what The Doctor would do first. ;)

Another Doctor! Woohoo! And him channeling Donna had me LMAO. :D I think the waste of a regeneration (and his explanation of why) was a bit of a cop-out, but at least it was put to brilliant use.I don't think it is a regeneration. Even DT wasn't willing to be drawn on that in the Confidential. I am hoping they don't use it as a regeneration anyway.


Does this mean that Mickey and Martha will be joining Torchwood?Um... yeah. At least that is why I am worried. :P



The hint of the Christmas Special actually left me cringing. I take it RTD is writing that, too, right? Please, dear merciful gods, ENOUGH WITH THE EFFING DALEKS AND CYBERMEN!! If it isn't one it's the other. Or both. ENOUGH, I say. Both have already been over-used and this is just making it worse.
I kind of see your point but back in the 70/80s they use to tag team each other at who would kill The Doctor first.:D It is traditional for one to follow the other. :P

We need a new tradition! lol

I pray that SM will have a bit more originality in him and won't keep falling back to all that. :rolleyes: Seriously. I think this is the first time I've ever NOT looked forward to the Christmas ep. And that makes me sad. *sigh*I wasn't looking forward to last years and I was SO right not to, it was bad. Well bad for a Doctor Who special anyway. Are the days of good specials numbered maybe?

RTD better get the 4 next year bloody right then. :D

ShadowMaat
July 5th, 2008, 09:49 PM
I noticed that ring but are you saying it is The Master's or that it was just like the way they showed The Master's ring? *needs to re-watch some eps*
I dunno. Someone else was saying it was and I wasn't buying it until they made such an ostentatious show of it. ;) Will have to re-watch the relevant ep myself, but I'm thinking the ring has to have SOME kind of significance. Either that or the someone needs to smack the gaffer upside the head. And the director for keeping the shot. :P

EDIT: Hmmm. Took a look. The Master's ring is NOTHING like the one Donna was wearing.

Scoobing
July 6th, 2008, 12:12 AM
EDIT: Hmmm. Took a look. The Master's ring is NOTHING like the one Donna was wearing.

Maybe its The Rani's? :P

memnarch
July 6th, 2008, 12:19 AM
I'm not fond of this phrase, but there's really no other way to describe this episode: it was an emotional roller coaster. I went from dread, at the realization of the Dalek's plan and Donna's near death at the core of the Crucible, to joy at the heroes' success and for the long awaited kiss, and finally to absolute heartbreak at Donna's fate. For her to lose that experience is just heartrending. And when Wilfred said he would watch the sky every night for her to the Doctor in the pouring rain, I freaking cried! They just keep piling the angst on the last Time Lord...I sincerely hope that he can find someone to travel with that'll make him happy again.

As for the future, it's pretty hard to say. I'd like to see both Martha and Mickey involved in Torchwood. I'm pretty sure Martha will, but Mickey is anyone's guess really. I'm a little concerned about River Song being a companion in the future. I mean, yeah, I like her, but she can't die in any episode she's in. She's invincible. Can't be vinced. We know her future, so there's very little peril for her...mind you, it's a very interesting plot device. Of course, with Steven Moffat, who wrote the episodes that introduced her, now helming the show, it's very likely that we'll see her again eventually. I don't really mind though, since Moffat tends to write brilliant stuff (Blink anyone?).

Finally, I predict that we haven't seen the last of the Medusa Cascade. It's tied to the Doctor's name and River Song learns the Doctor's name somehow...Also, the whole thing with the Doctor and Donna being drawn together isn't adequately explained either...

Willow'sCat
July 6th, 2008, 12:20 AM
I dunno. Someone else was saying it was and I wasn't buying it until they made such an ostentatious show of it. ;) Will have to re-watch the relevant ep myself, but I'm thinking the ring has to have SOME kind of significance. Either that or the someone needs to smack the gaffer upside the head. And the director for keeping the shot. :P

EDIT: Hmmm. Took a look. The Master's ring is NOTHING like the one Donna was wearing.Hmmm, maybe when they do bring back The Master, which they will :P the ring/s might be linked some how. Oh, who knows. Sometimes a huge great ring that glints in the lights is just a huge great ring that glints in the lights. :D:P

I had a thought about Mickey. Other then to put him in Torchwood; why did he need to stay in this Universe? :S What was the reason? Also did Jack say UNIT was gone or is he just saying they are useless?

Torchwood1 and 3 was/is pretty useless too at times. Pot calling Kettle. :P

Trek_Girl42
July 6th, 2008, 12:32 AM
Just finished the ep, my brain's going crazy, all I'll say is that I HATE the Doctor for what he did to Donna. I know it was the only way. But I really don't like him right now, at all. Absolutely awful to see her go back to that after she finally realized that she is someone special- it has me in a mess of tears. Especially seeing her as it dawned upon her what he was going to do- she would rather have died while knowing who she was and who she could be than go back to her old insecure life. :(

Brilliant ep, except for the beach scene. (what the frak was RTD thinking?) But I'll save the rest of my comments for tomorrow when I've processed it all. :P

scarimor
July 6th, 2008, 01:34 AM
The more I think about it, the more heartbreaking it is what happened to Donna and I think RTD's right, it is like a death. Death of the Donna we knew. Worse than death, maybe? I love that the show went there though, that it did something so different and so kinda dark and sorrowful.
You're not wrong. Donna's fate is tragedy. It's great drama, because it's exactly what the Doctor would do with/for her. On thematic, character and prosaic levels (the three great tests of well-written drama) it makes absolute sense. It's the Everlasting Death that Caan foretold - not so much Donna's but our's - worse than death for us because we remember. The last we see of Donna she's laughing, and we're crying for her.

Davros was brilliant and insightful and not-quite-mad-but-near-enough to be spine-chilling. A great performance.

I adore the glorious scene when the doctor and his companions fly the TARDIS - the music, the laughter, the sheer excitement; and the joy on the faces of those on the shaking ground in Torchwood. Party! That was the orgasmic climactic moment of the narrative, the skin-tingling, earth-moving (literally!) pay-off.

And then the human tragedy. Wow.

Mr Prophet
July 6th, 2008, 02:46 AM
Alas, poor Donna. We knew her, as she no longer knows herself. I suppose that qualifies as Dalek Caan's revenge on the Doctor, like the destruction of the Crucible was his revenge on Davros for ever creating the Daleks. I do like the idea that a Dalek would make up for the crimes of its race by destroying billions of lives; it fits well.

And Dalek Caan as the Bad Wolf. Neat.

huntress
July 6th, 2008, 03:24 AM
I just saw the series finale of Doctor Who. THIS was the best finale I have seen since the fifth season finale of "Buffy". Gawd that was good!


Haa! Caroline was right. The hand was used and RTD was a big meanie for making us worried.

So they really meant Osterhagen as in Osterhagen in Germany. Sometimes we all think way too complicated. It was a bit amusing but also unnerving. Why the hell Osterhagen. There was a minor concentration camp there in WWII. BTW The German was really pretty good and gramattically correct. I always laugh my socks off when I watch triangle from X-Files because the German from Mitch and David is just terrible but Freema did a good job (then again most Brits I know speak pretty decent German and not a single American does. My dads best friend (okay he also lives near Düsseldorf speaks the cutest German)

So the rumours were right: Mickey and Martha will join Torchwood in the next series =) I know that some fans grumble and growl about that but I always liked Mickey and he seems like a tougher guy now and of course there is wonderful Martha so I am happy.

They gave Rose a proper happy ending and I could only laugh and cheer. She gets her own mortal Doctor. Someone she can be with with the rest of her life, grow old with together, have children. Everything the doctor ever wanted! I cried happy tears. Especially when they returned to the beach and she asked both doctors what he wanted to say to her and he whispers into her ear that he loves her and for once just this once the doctor kisses someone not for some weird purpose but out of love. =) The whole story was just wowowowowow and K-9 was also there. The plot twist of Donna becoming a Timelord hybrid and thet Dalek Kaan was actually the most loyal companion because through all the ages he was the one who worked together with the doctor to destroy the Daleks was one hell of a plot twist. The music by Murray Gold was incredible - especially the music while the Earth travelled bag to our solar system piggybacked on the TARDIS was just gorgeous! These two episodes were truly a dream come true for all loyal fans.

Now you probably want to know why I am also very sad and mellancholy at the same time:

Donna. That hurt me more then I can tell. I have come to love Donna very much. From all the companions she has become the one I truly enjoyed. Alaways enjoyed. Yes I loved Rose but Donna was funny, witty, not in love with doctor and simply wonderful. That all of her travels were erased at the end, that all the character growing and maturing was taken away from her and she became the same annoying and ignorant Donna from "Runaway Bride". That hurt and it obviously hurt the doctor too. Donna had become a good friend and he had seen the hidden potential of that woman and now everything was taken away and though she lives, he has lost a friend and he is alone again.

Rose. No more Rose. Ever. Yes she has her own doctor minus TARDIS now but he doesn't have Rose and even though that was him who at the end got Rose, the real doctor, the time lord, was the looser at the end. What did he gain? Only a knowledge that he already had in a way - that he doesn't just save lives, that he is the destroyer of worlds too.

The simple fact that this was the last series with RTD and that there won't be another series for two whole years. Okay there will be three or four one hour specials but that is nothing. It almost feels to me like the end of the Harry Potter series. It is hard to explain.

So this me. Sitting here with a laughing and a crying eye.

Guest750
July 6th, 2008, 03:57 AM
K-9's friends with the Asgard!!!

P-90_177
July 6th, 2008, 04:29 AM
Now this was fantastic. Just the whole thing. There was not one bad bit. Not one little "that just ain't right" moment in the whole thing. It was just perfect.

Davros was just as mad and insane as he ever was. The Daleks are back to being incredibly scary.

The Doctor had a really sad ending. Incredibly sad. He's all alone again. Yes Donna lost out on all those amazing things she's done but at least she's got her family and her friends and she'll live her life as she always did fairly happily.

Speaking of Donna. She was fantastic in this. I mean really amazing. Cathrine Tate is a great actress. I had great doubts when she started and I didn't like her in Runaway Bride but she was serriously good. And the way she left leaves it open for a future storyline that they'd be mad not to exploit. Afterall. The knowledge in her head is merely surpressed as I understand it. So if Davros or the Master or any other bad guy comes about they could easily capture her and exploit all the knowledge.

As for everyone else.....

Rose gets her happy ending at last which is great. Still a bit of sadness there since she can't see all those wonderful things in the TARDIS but she has her very own doctor which is just human enough to love her the way she wants.

Jack, Martha and Mickey all heading off to Torchwood. I think they'll make a good team with Ianto and Gwen.

Sarah Jane, Great to see her again. I can't say I watch the Sarah Jane adventures but still great to see her again in the show. Hope we do again at some point.

While we're on the subject....K9!!!!


So anyway I do have to say that i was amazed by this. it had me feeling loads of emotions all the way along. Anger at Davros. Joy and Amazement at three doctors. Shock and Horror at everyone getting captured. And Sadness at the Doctor being all alone again. I have to admit that I did actually cry at the end. All the way through the End with Rose and Donna I was holding it back but I couldn't help but let a tear slip when Wilfred said his line at the end and saluted the Doctor.

Willow'sCat
July 6th, 2008, 05:07 AM
I'm a little concerned about River Song being a companion in the future. I mean, yeah, I like her, but she can't die in any episode she's in. She's invincible. Can't be vinced. We know her future, so there's very little peril for her...mind you, it's a very interesting plot device. Of course, with Steven Moffat, who wrote the episodes that introduced her, now helming the show, it's very likely that we'll see her again eventually. I don't really mind though, since Moffat tends to write brilliant stuff (Blink anyone?). As I wrote in one of my earlier posts, I really think River meets and maybe falls in love with DoctorII... I don't think The Doctor looked different to her only older to her. Rose said that in the AUverse they were working on a kind of time machine, well if you have a time machine you might be able to travel in dimensions like the TARDIS does, also they now have a Time Lord (part there of) to help refine it.

I honestly think River met and maybe married the half human version of The Doctor... he is part human but part Time Lord there is no saying how long he could really live for is there? He could have out lasted Rose in the end. We may never know... but if we never see or hear from River again I will not be surprised. ;)

The only thing that I can't remember was if River's Doctor had two hearts... *shrugs* :P

Dusk
July 6th, 2008, 05:40 AM
First and foremost I hate what they did with Donna.

I agree most profusely. What a horrible fate! Worse than death. And speaking of "death" as in the "death" of a companion... was there a scene I missed, or did no companion actually "die"? Unbelievable.

The ending was exactly the same as the one at the end of seasons 2, 3, and 4... namely, the Doctor, sad, in the TARDIS, alone... it's a record being played over and over again, stop it!

In fact, it's lucky they are taking a break for a bit, because the series has not only found it's groove, it's now stuck in a groove, and cannot get out. The formula of the Doctor+female companion+TARDIS+Earth in unrelenting peril = ... oh sorry, I just nodded off. They are going in circles and it's all becoming a bit old frankly.

The Children of Time all looked like they couldn't get out of that TARDIS soon enough and run away from the Doctor man. How horrible.

Still, of course I cannot deny the episode did have it's moments of wonderment. Yes I loved the German Daleks and the group coming together to fly the TARDIS and even worried the TARDIS was about to die (actually I wished they had trashed it more to give them an excuse to reconstruct the set for next year)... but, all in all, a very anti-climactic season finale. With no cliffhanger. Just a lame ass Cybermen Christmas teaser that had us all groaning in disapproval.

If the Daleks are gone for good I will happily say nicer things about the episode.

Madeleine
July 6th, 2008, 05:42 AM
An awesome finale (with the exception of the craptacular Bad Wolf Bay scene).

David Tennant, Catherine Tate and Bernard Cribbins put in exceptional performances.

Donna’s fate was really heartbreaking - probably worse than if she had actually died, in a way… And I loved it. Brilliant.

Agreed on all counts. I'm more upset about Donna having the best memories of her life excised from her mind than I was about Adric (and I loved Adric).

From my own PoV it's incredibly frustrating to know that the best companion ever (well, I think so anyway) is still alive, still wanted to travel with the Doctor, still would want to if given a chance; but doesn't even know that she did once travel space, and didn't even get fussed when "John Smith" said goodbye to her. She's the only companion or guest actor who can't ever be re-used, in a show where practically everyone gets to come back sooner or later.

Osterhagen: anagram of Earth's Gone, right? But funny that it's a real place too.

The line-up of returning companions was even bigger than I'd expected, with Mickey and Jackie turning up and even K9 having a cameo. I think it was a good move to limit Luke, Ianto, Gwen and Mr Smith to one or two scenes each, because any more people involved in the main story would have made it too crowded. As it was, it was just right, everyone had something to do in the plot (except poor Jackie, but at least that made her unique ;)) and it was fun seeing all the old faces again.

As for CT and DT, it was uncanny the way they managed to each bring elements of the other into their acting. They must've worked on that for ages, I can't believe it can have been at all easy, but it was a joy to watch. The second time around, Donna's "where shall we go next" speech was heartbreaking; first time around it seemed OTT until you started to see that something was wrong, but second time when you know all along that she's only got a few seconds left, and it's so similar to the Doctor's motormouth equivalent to Martha just before she left, when he knew that a goodbye was imminent. Crikey it hurt, more than a TV show ought to.

Rose... always selfish but I'd hoped she'd grow out of it. She gets given a perfect version of the man of her dreams, and she's still trying to chase after a 'better' one. Meh.

Jack got all the funny stuff this ep. LOL at Mickey calling Jack 'Captain Cheesecake', and at Donna's "no really, hug me". And Jack's line about not being able to say what he was thinking? :D:rolleyes:;) etc

I liked the Daleks better in this than I have in ages - the looney Caan and the not much less bonkers Davros were excellent foils for the Doctor. But even so, I hope to goodness that it's a good few years before we see anything resembling giant pepperpot with whisk & plunger again. Every time the Daleks turn up it makes the previous year's effort in getting rid of the Daleks once and for all seem a bit, er, cheap. Some (all?) villans should be used sparingly. Familiarity breeds contempt, less is more, and all that. I want to be SURPRISED by the Daleks again one day. But anyway, the Daleks were pleasingly ambitious this time, no pansying about trying to take over a skyscraper or even a planet, just destroying the whole flippin' universe.

Mr Prophet
July 6th, 2008, 05:56 AM
As I wrote in one of my earlier posts, I really think River meets and maybe falls in love with DoctorII... I don't think The Doctor looked different to her only older to her. Rose said that in the AUverse they were working on a kind of time machine, well if you have a time machine you might be able to travel in dimensions like the TARDIS does, also they now have a Time Lord (part there of) to help refine it.

I honestly think River met and maybe married the half human version of The Doctor... he is part human but part Time Lord there is no saying how long he could really live for is there? He could have out lasted Rose in the end. We may never know... but if we never see or hear from River again I will not be surprised. ;)

The only thing that I can't remember was if River's Doctor had two hearts... *shrugs* :P

I still think that there isn't any proof that River song married the Doctor, and certainly not that it was anyone but the original. Doctor II is stuck in the AU and if that door opens again then we're going to get stuck with Rose coming back, so I really hope not. As to the Doctor II significantly outliving Rose, since I can't see them ever killing off Rose, that would mean he had to live sufficiently monger than her that the whole 'I only have one life' thing would have been an utterly outrageous lie.

Plus she specifically mentioned not just his time machine but his TARDIS, and even if they build Doctor II a time machine, it wouldn't be a TARDIS.

Pitry
July 6th, 2008, 05:58 AM
Ackackackackack. I love this show. I really do. :)

Regeneration - aaack! I do think they missed a trick there cos if DT really was leaving it coul have been the perfect way to hide it - but I'm not complaining! not at all! May we have a lot more Tennants. :)
Donna. So sad. My heart broke. I think in a way, what happened to her was worse than death. Because had she died there and then, she would have died acheiving things, being someone, realising her potential. Now she lives on, but she lives on as someone who's been told all her life she's worthless and really does believe that - like the Doctor commented at Sylvia, she should tell her she's the most important woman in the world every once in a while... and all her amazing experiences are gone. I know the Doctor angsts about people dying etc... but I don't think he had the right to take that from Donna. :( Donna Noble, you will be badly missed. Catherine Tate, you are one hell of an actress!
That scene on the beach... sigh. I'm not sure it's fair towards Rose. She got her happy ending, but, looking at Donna etc - she's never given the chance to get over the Doctor, to become her own woman.. so she spent some time alone in the parallel universe, but all she's done was to try adn get back with the Doctor, and now she's got her half-Doctor and can sort of pretend he's the real thing... and she'll never get past that. It was a touching scene and it's nice as a superficial happy ending for the character, and it's a good way to close her story froever, but it's a shame they define this marvelous character by her need for the Doctor - all the other companions were allowed to find their defining moments elsewhere, especialy if we look at Martha and Jack who defined themsevles by leaving the Doctor.
Tardis full of companions! Two Doctors! Donna acting like the Doctor and the Doctor acting liek Donna! K9! Gwen is related to gwynyth! Tardis full of companions! Jack and Donna flirting! Mickey and Jack! the Doctor not letting Jackie fly the Tardis! JACKIE!(I was so horrified there for a second when she didn't make it out with Mickey adn Sarah Jane). Daleks speaking German!! hear me squee. :)

And it looks like MArtha and Mickey are joining Torchwood?

My only complaints (other than the Rose bit) is that the rumours aboutb the MAster turned out to be wrong. Hell, everyone else showe up, even the Judoon! :'(
I'm completely in lvoe witht his show and can't bel;ieve I have to wait almost two years til regular episodes resume. What will I obsess about now! :(

huntress
July 6th, 2008, 06:19 AM
I agree most profusely. What a horrible fate! Worse than death. And speaking of "death" as in the "death" of a companion... was there a scene I missed, or did no companion actually "die"? Unbelievable.


Donna died. No not physically but the Donna we knew and cherished died. She doesn't even remember anymore the woman she has become. She is back again in being the shrill woman who shouts at the world and that is a realy tragedy.

huntress
July 6th, 2008, 06:22 AM
I'm completely in lvoe witht his show and can't bel;ieve I have to wait almost two years til regular episodes resume. What will I obsess about now! :(

Don't even remind me of that. Just think happy thoughts: We still have four specials and five Torchwood episodes. That is a pityfull amount of episodes I know but at least we won't be left with nothing for the next two years. Also there are those audio books (of which I own four) and fanfics...though i ahven't found any real decent ones yet =( I am out to hunt those books that are out of print that were written by RTD and Stephen Moffat.

P-90_177
July 6th, 2008, 06:25 AM
Don't even remind me of that. Just think happy thoughts: We still have four specials and five Torchwood episodes. That is a pityfull amount of episodes I know but at least we won't be left with nothing for the next two years. Also there are those audio books (of which I own four) and fanfics...though i ahven't found any real decent ones yet =( I am out to hunt those books that are out of print that were written by RTD and Stephen Moffat.

I'm planning on writing a couple of fanfics now i've seen those last few eps. Hopefully I'll do a good enough job on them that you can enjoy them. :o

Sealurk
July 6th, 2008, 06:29 AM
Seriously, I think it would have been better for Donna to die, knowing what she did and spending her last few hours or days with her family. That is just a really horrible end for such an awesome character (who I initially hated, and now think is the best companion the Doctor's ever had!).

Ah well, at least leaving her alive leaves a tiny little doorway for her return. Remember the surprise finales for previous series: regeneration, donna appearing the tardis, titanic colliding with the tardis...now imagine series five's finale: Donna's return.

P-90_177
July 6th, 2008, 06:33 AM
Seriously, I think it would have been better for Donna to die, knowing what she did and spending her last few hours or days with her family. That is just a really horrible end for such an awesome character (who I initially hated, and now think is the best companion the Doctor's ever had!).

Ah well, at least leaving her alive leaves a tiny little doorway for her return. Remember the surprise finales for previous series: regeneration, donna appearing the tardis, titanic colliding with the tardis...now imagine series five's finale: Donna's return.

Well like I said in my previous post, it is entirely left open for Donna to return. The Doctor didn't erase all those memories, merely surpressed them. Includeing all the knowledge of the Doctor. So the easiest thing to do to bring her back is to have one of the Doctors enemies learning of the knowledge in her brain and kidnapping her to use her for some nefarious circumstance. Afterall. How much damage could be caused with the knowledge of a Timelord like the doctor.

kirmit
July 6th, 2008, 07:00 AM
Having Donna just die would've been too cliche and expected, what they did was a very imaginative way of doing things and still have the fans feel asif the character had died or even something worse than death.

Anubis69
July 6th, 2008, 07:08 AM
Seriously, I think it would have been better for Donna to die, knowing what she did and spending her last few hours or days with her family. That is just a really horrible end for such an awesome character (who I initially hated, and now think is the best companion the Doctor's ever had!).

Ah well, at least leaving her alive leaves a tiny little doorway for her return. Remember the surprise finales for previous series: regeneration, donna appearing the tardis, titanic colliding with the tardis...now imagine series five's finale: Donna's return.
Not to sound harsh but ... I think that would ruin it. That was one of the finest endings to any series i've watched. It was an incredibly potent ending, so bitter (and horrific) that bringing her back two years down the line would ruin everything the last two episodes were about.
...
Much like Rose coming back actually. Doomsday isn't quite as emotional knowing that she comes back 2 years later with almost no character growth. And SGA's Sunday falls into the same column now that I think about it. :S

Kateski
July 6th, 2008, 04:17 PM
I have a lot of conflicting feelings about this episode. It felt like it rushed through certain parts, and then took too long on others. But saying that (plus some plot holes and a wee bit of hokey dialogue) i really enjoyed it! Entertained me greatly.

One question i have, isn't Billie Piper meant to be in one or more of the upcoming specials? If so, how the heck is that gonna work now??

The Prophet
July 6th, 2008, 04:50 PM
When The Doctor was giving his speech to Jack, Rose & Donna about "You've been brilliant", I was hoping he was going to finish it off with "and so have I!" as Christopher Ecclescake said to Rose just prior to regenerating.

Also, I was really hoping the Hand would regenerate into Christopher Ecclescake (some regeneration technobabble would have explained it), instead of Doctor-2. He can't really be last of the Timelords now- what with him having a Timelord Daughter-Clone and a 1/2 Timelord-Clone, it seems to cheapen things.

Also, the Doctor/Rose thing was bound to happen, but using the 1/2 Doctor-2 (:S) as a proxy was just terrible- Rose loves The Doctor, (blatantly for his Tardis :P). She can't seem to grasp that 1/2 Doctor-2 is the same guy, only human... Sorta... It doesn't seem right.

The genocide of the Daleks was also a bad way to tie everything up; they're (unfortunately) bound to make a reappearance, so why stubble into the same trap of having to come up with a ridiculous way of reintroducing them (via a Cult that took refuge in between Universes, etc).

And the Doctor really should have removed the memories from most of the people on Earth, including Donna. He said that any minute detail would bring back her Memories; it seems like the next time she watches the News and has a full report she'll blow a fuse...

Davros wasn't neccessary; he didn't add anything to the plotline; apart from provide a means to resurrect the Daleks once again. Also adding a human-face to the Daleks... The Maniacal Laughter when he started the Reality Bomb was great though.

Not the best of episodes; probably the worst of Season Finales in the new seasons, but good none-the-less.

SaberBlade
July 6th, 2008, 05:17 PM
Personally I think the return of the Dalek's will be done by Caan and Davros. When every Dalek was killed, those two were still alive. Wouldn't be surprised if one or both did an emergency temporal shift.

One thing I am confused about, does this mean we're on the 11th Doctor now? He may not have actually regenerated but the process did begin he just dumped the rest of his energy into the hand.

Overall I really enjoyed the episode, although the technobabble was a bit much. The ending I thought was superb, as although I wasn't found of Donna to begin with her departure from the show was very emotional and a good way for her to exit the show without her actual death as opposed to the death of Donna she became. Bit disappointed with Rose and Doctor² as it just seemed like a cheap way to give her a happy ending and a waste of a possible form since Tennant departing the show in the future for any reason could result in just two more Doctors.

SaberBlade
July 6th, 2008, 05:17 PM
Personally I think the return of the Dalek's will be done by Caan and Davros. When every Dalek was killed, those two were still alive. Wouldn't be surprised if one or both did an emergency temporal shift.

One thing I am confused about, does this mean we're on the 11th Doctor now? He may not have actually regenerated but the process did begin he just dumped the rest of his energy into the hand.

Overall I really enjoyed the episode, although the technobabble was a bit much. The ending I thought was superb, as although I wasn't found of Donna to begin with her departure from the show was very emotional and a good way for her to exit the show without her actual death as opposed to the death of Donna she became. Bit disappointed with Rose and Doctor² as it just seemed like a cheap way to give her a happy ending and a waste of a possible form since Tennant departing the show in the future for any reason could result in just two more Doctors.

tombombadil
July 7th, 2008, 07:24 AM
i thought "DoctorDonna" was important! BAH! i should've spoken up about it when i had the chance.

Mousie
July 7th, 2008, 08:44 AM
Enjoyed the episode very much.

I loved Davros's completely maniacical bit when the final countdown neared the end and then they all heard the Tardis materialising.

I still think that the death of the most faithfull companion related to the Tardis rather than Donna. Despite what they said about her and the Dr being faited to join up with each other I don't see Donna as being any more faithfull than any of the others. I mean Rose found a way to cross realities to rejoin him, SJS continued on for years after she stopped travelling with him! The Tardis has been with him for hundreds of years and Davros did intend to destroy it. They all thought it had been ripped apart in the core.

Anyway does anyone have any idea what the music was as they towed the Earth home? i've emailed the beeb but who knows if or when they will get back to me.

Sealurk
July 7th, 2008, 10:13 AM
I was sure it was going to be the TARDIS as well, which it almost was (and I'm really annoyed at Donna's fate!!), but as for the music, I can't help you. I've never heard it before on Who, but I expect it was another piece by Murray Gold, who as far as I am concerned has done wonders for the new series (I think his Gallifrey theme is amazing). It'll probably turn up on the season four soundtrack CD.

I did think towing Earth was one of the standout moments of the episode, something so jaw-droppingly huge only a Time Lord would even think of it, and positive to boot (rare in TV sci-fi, I think!), what with all the companions and the outcome. The music certainly suited it.

Pitry
July 7th, 2008, 11:20 AM
Seriously, I think it would have been better for Donna to die, knowing what she did and spending her last few hours or days with her family. That is just a really horrible end for such an awesome character (who I initially hated, and now think is the best companion the Doctor's ever had!).

Ah well, at least leaving her alive leaves a tiny little doorway for her return. Remember the surprise finales for previous series: regeneration, donna appearing the tardis, titanic colliding with the tardis...now imagine series five's finale: Donna's return.

I think the ending's a lot stronger this way than it would have been had Donna died. Because... well... dead characters are a tragedy, yes. But it's something that, ridiculously, we've come to expect from science fictino, and drama in general. Someone as brilliant as Donna, who we the viewers know how brilliant she is, but also know she will never know it herself or live to see her potential... that's just really painful. Sob.



Anyway does anyone have any idea what the music was as they towed the Earth home? i've emailed the beeb but who knows if or when they will get back to me.

I think it was a version of the music they wrote for Planet of the ood, too? In the end of the episode? Anyway, Murray gold original I'd imagine, wait for the series 4 sounmdtrack :)

huntress
July 7th, 2008, 01:17 PM
That was definitley an original by Mr. Gold and I can't wait for the release of the soundtrack for series four. I only wonder when that will happen. The Torchwood score isn't due until autumn next year and I wouldn't be surprised if the fourth series soundtrack will also be released late 2009 :(

MerryK
July 7th, 2008, 04:59 PM
I think the ending's a lot stronger this way than it would have been had Donna died. Because... well... dead characters are a tragedy, yes. But it's something that, ridiculously, we've come to expect from science fictino, and drama in general. Someone as brilliant as Donna, who we the viewers know how brilliant she is, but also know she will never know it herself or live to see her potential... that's just really painful. Sob.

I've never understood why people get upset when shows do painful things...isn't that realistic, isn't that good writing? Unless the writers pretend that it's nothing, which the Who writers certainly didn't.

Token
July 7th, 2008, 07:26 PM
The finale was thrilling! My only "cringe" was SJS and Mickey sneaking away from the Daleks without being seen. Ah...don't think so. :confused:

Donna! Didn't like her in "Runaway Bride" and thought it was going to be a looong series. However, I will miss her now. I saw Catherine Tate's skits of Lauren. Brilliant!! Since then, I'm a hugh fan! I want to see more of Donna and Catherine!

After my second viewing, I'm left with wanting more. The strange part is I want to know more about Blue Doctor. I think the blending of Donna makes him a much more interesting Doctor. :o

Rose should have been grateful for the gift she was given. (I know I would have been.;)) Unless, she was just after his blue box. :P No, he isn't the exact same because of the Donna blend; and if anything tore them apart, it would be because she could tell the difference. I hope Rose allows herself to be happy with the only Doctor she will get and is darn lucky to have!

I would like to see new villians. "Blink" was awesome! The entity from "Midnight" could reappear. How much more story is there in Cybermen and Daleks?

Ah well, I do have my books to keep me happy until Christmas. :)

Gabriel_Lecter
July 7th, 2008, 07:58 PM
Davros completely stole the show.

Without him I think I would have shot myself at the tactless happy ending and series of crazy luck that repeatedly saved them from destruction.

I was SO hoping that Davros would detonate the bomb, destroying everything in the universe and setting up next season for the Doctor and his companions to restore things.

I know it wouldnt happen like that but one can only dream.

Davros remided me of Darth Sidious.
My two favourite villians, apart from the Ori.

Imagine Davros and Sidious Ascending haha.

I dont think he's insane at all though. He's worked toward his goal for hundreds of years. It's basically the only thing that keeps him living and going on.

To finally be so close to fulfilling your lifes work would be a feeling far beyond normally happiness, eg. laughing hysterically and feeling empowered by proving wrong all those that doubted you. To others that do not understand what you've been through and how hard you have had to work towards this, they would think you're completely insane.

I hope we'll be seeing more of him.

ohhh and I LOVED the scene between Davros and Sarah Jane!

Trek_Girl42
July 7th, 2008, 09:35 PM
I think the ending's a lot stronger this way than it would have been had Donna died. Because... well... dead characters are a tragedy, yes. But it's something that, ridiculously, we've come to expect from science fictino, and drama in general. Someone as brilliant as Donna, who we the viewers know how brilliant she is, but also know she will never know it herself or live to see her potential... that's just really painful. Sob.
*sigh* Yup. Donna is the best companion ever, had the best journey of a companion, she finally realizes her worth, and wow. I re-watched that episode, that scene where she realizes what the Doctor about to do is SO hard to watch, and then seeing her on the phone in the kitchen at the end was devastating.

And the thing is, the Doctor was so freshly reminded by Davros of all the people who have literally died because of him throughout the series that he couldn't let it happen to her. I think that when he saved her, he lost sight of the fact that there is something worse than death because all of those past deaths had just been replayed for him. The tragedy of Donna Noble is that she will probably NEVER find herself in the way that she did over the course of the series, and that's just heartbreaking- it'll be awful for her Grandad. Because she would rather have lived her last moments happy with herself and who she was and proud of what she had done and seen, but she's really so wonderful, and so smart and brave etc. and now she'll never know it! Argh!

A few other comments.....
Jack! "I can't tell you what I'm thinking." :D And Donna's intrest in Jack was hilarious and good. "You can hug me. No really, you can hug me." (and 'Who's that?" from the previous episode) Loved it.

Mickey! *crossed fingers on him and Martha joining Torchwood*

Towing the Earth! Ridiulously awesomely epic. The companions driving the TARDIS, wow. Exactly how to do a crossover. :D

The two things I didn't like: The beach scene.....ugh. We really didn't need that kiss. That was so completely not Doctor Who. And also as mentioned, Sarah Jane and Mickey's escape. :rolleyes:

Mousie
July 8th, 2008, 12:23 AM
That was definitley an original by Mr. Gold and I can't wait for the release of the soundtrack for series four. I only wonder when that will happen. The Torchwood score isn't due until autumn next year and I wouldn't be surprised if the fourth series soundtrack will also be released late 2009 :(

Thanks for the reply guys, I'll have to keep my eyes out for it, however like I'm going to remember in 2009 that I want it. I'll have to stick a big note somewhere visible.

Alipeeps
July 8th, 2008, 02:21 AM
I had a revelation last night. Donna's fate is even more tragic that we previously thought:

She got to see the Doctor naked... and will never remember it! :lol:

GateGipsy
July 8th, 2008, 02:38 AM
ROFLMAO! Trust you to pick up on that. Yes, indeed, that is a fate worse than death...

Madeleine
July 8th, 2008, 02:50 AM
We'll just have to remember it extra well on her behalf.

Alipeeps
July 8th, 2008, 03:18 AM
ROFLMAO! Trust you to pick up on that. Yes, indeed, that is a fate worse than death...

Whaddaya mean, trust me?!! Just what are you implying?! :eek:

Oi! Mod abuse! Mod abuse! See that?! I'm being repressed! :D

GateGipsy
July 8th, 2008, 03:42 AM
No-one could accuse you of being repressed Alipeeps :)

Mads - oh I know and not even a flag in sight...

Alipeeps
July 8th, 2008, 04:16 AM
I'm not sure... but I think I may just have been insulted... :D :D

For Donna... and all that she has lost: :D

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f260/Alipeeps/Dr%20Who/Season%204/Journeys%20End/NakedDoctor1.png

Gate-builder
July 8th, 2008, 04:33 AM
Not as good as I was expecting, everything seemed to be resolved a bit quick and easy for my liking. Also a lot of un-answered questions.

Things I liked
The Doctor-Donna, brilliant acting from Catherine Tate.

The fully crewed TARDIS pulling the Earth home, probably my favourite part of
Dr Who ever, and some awesome music.

German Daleks

The Gwen-Gwenyth connection

Davros really gave me the creeps when he went all crazy, and when he recognised Sarah-Jane. Awesome stuff!

The Doctor-Wilf scene at the end

Things I didn't like
Shipping! Enough already!

Dalek Caan closing the TARDIS door, wtf, does he have a TARDIS door remote or something? And how was he able to manpulate everything? It just didn't make any sense to me.

Donnas mum being a total dick to the Doctor, would have loved to see her exterminated.

Not finding out what the Daleks new replacement for the plunger tool was for.

Donna trying to hug Jack all the time, it seemed very out of place to me.

Not finding out what was going on regarding Davros being the Daleks pet.

And just don't get me started on the whole beach scene....


The episode had its fair share of good moments, it started off really well with plently going on and then went downhill from there. The mighty Dalek Empire at the height of its power was defeated in about a 30 seconds and the rest of the episode all seemed about saying goodbye to Rose yet again, complete with enough shippyness to make even the most diehard shipper vomit uncontrollably.

In the end it seemed to ask more questions than it answered IMO, an alright episode overall but not one of RTDs best efforts.

GateGipsy
July 8th, 2008, 05:03 AM
Refresh my memory - when did Dalek Caan close the Tardis door?

scarimor
July 8th, 2008, 05:25 AM
I had a revelation last night. Donna's fate is even more tragic that we previously thought:

She got to see the Doctor naked... and will never remember it! :lol:
Have a jellybaby for that one, Ali :)


Refresh my memory - when did Dalek Caan close the Tardis door?
The Red Dalek ordered the Doctor out of his TARDIS upon capture. After a bit of 'Eek, ok then' banter between the Doctor, Rose, Jack and Donna, they all trooped out... except Donna who started hearing the half-Donna version of the Doctor's heartbeat echoing through time and stood trance-like...

That's when Caan shut the door on her.

Pitry
July 8th, 2008, 05:59 AM
I've never understood why people get upset when shows do painful things...isn't that realistic, isn't that good writing? Unless the writers pretend that it's nothing, which the Who writers certainly didn't.

Oh, don't get me wrong. The best compliment I can think of a television show is that it makes me cry, which is something I can say a lot about doctor Who, JE being no exception to that.
It was wonderful writing and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Still, sniff :P


I had a revelation last night. Donna's fate is even more tragic that we previously thought:

She got to see the Doctor naked... and will never remember it! :lol:


ROFLMAO! Trust you to pick up on that. Yes, indeed, that is a fate worse than death...


We'll just have to remember it extra well on her behalf.

We should get together and dedicate some moments for this wonderful, wonderful way of remembering Donna Noble. Oh yes.
:D:D

As for the Door, I kinda thought it was the Hand/Tardis, like it did in The Poison Sky to get them to Messaline? I guess it could be Dalek Caan...

Alipeeps
July 8th, 2008, 06:14 AM
The Red Dalek ordered the Doctor out of his TARDIS upon capture. After a bit of 'Eek, ok then' banter between the Doctor, Rose, Jack and Donna, they all trooped out... except Donna who started hearing the half-Donna version of the Doctor's heartbeat echoing through time and stood trance-like...

That's when Caan shut the door on her.


As for the Door, I kinda thought it was the Hand/Tardis, like it did in The Poison Sky to get them to Messaline? I guess it could be Dalek Caan...

Quite. I don't recall it ever being explicitly stated that it was Caan who did that. The Doctor(s) did talk about someone/thing manipulating events to bring Donna to a position for this to happen to her (although Doctor MkII also mentioned the timelines converging around her because she was so unique - a human with a Time Lord consciousness) and that Caan had been involved in that but Caan himself said something about these events would always have come to pass and he merely helped?

I never did quite understand myself to what extent Caan was supposed to have manipulated things. He trip back to the Time War showed him all of time and allowed him to see the future - so he could manipulate things in terms of manipulating the Daleks by means of what he told them about the future (the prophecy etc) but I don't see how he had any abilities to manipulate anything else (e.g. Donna and the Doctor ever meeting etc)?

But like Pitry I kinda thought the door closing was the hand/the TARDIS at work.

nich959
July 8th, 2008, 06:25 AM
This was a beautiful episode and a spectacular season finale.

I'm one of those strange people who actually likes Doctor+Rose, however I don't mind not seeing rose again.

Donna nearly had me in tears at the end, as did the grandfathers goodbye.

The key was just stupid, we all knew that was never going to happen, though German Daleks was hilarious. I still don't particularly like martha and dislike her even more now.

Anubis69
July 8th, 2008, 06:58 AM
Quite. I don't recall it ever being explicitly stated that it was Caan who did that. The Doctor(s) did talk about someone/thing manipulating events to bring Donna to a position for this to happen to her (although Doctor MkII also mentioned the timelines converging around her because she was so unique - a human with a Time Lord consciousness) and that Caan had been involved in that but Caan himself said something about these events would always have come to pass and he merely helped?

I never did quite understand myself to what extent Caan was supposed to have manipulated things. He trip back to the Time War showed him all of time and allowed him to see the future - so he could manipulate things in terms of manipulating the Daleks by means of what he told them about the future (the prophecy etc) but I don't see how he had any abilities to manipulate anything else (e.g. Donna and the Doctor ever meeting etc)?

But like Pitry I kinda thought the door closing was the hand/the TARDIS at work.
Aye, didn't the cloned Doctor explicitly say that he (his "heart-beat" or something? :S) rippled back in time? There's been a fair few predestination paradoxes being used as random plot explanations recently...

Btw, I was thinking (I couldn't get to sleep last night :rolleyes:) what motivations the doctor's villains have. Daleks, it's not domination, is it just as simple as "extermination"? A purification of the unworthy? The Master was, what, having everyone's obedience? Defeating the Doctor but at the same time not killing him? Davros. Control? Pure lust for power?
...
I drew a total blank at Cybermen. Any ideas?

ETA: God, i'm such a nerd.

Sealurk
July 8th, 2008, 07:01 AM
I drew a total blank at Cybermen. Any ideas?

God, i'm such a nerd.

Upgrade the universe, a twisted version of "it's for your own good". And being a nerd isn't all bad.

Alipeeps
July 8th, 2008, 07:06 AM
Daleks - Ethnic cleansing; anything not Dalek is inferior and must die
The Master - Dominion; total mastery (;)) being in control of everything, making people dance to his whims
Davros - Superiority; proving himself right by crushing those who would oppose him
Cybermen - Religious crusade; our way is the right way and we will convert you by force

Anubis69
July 8th, 2008, 07:25 AM
Fantastic! In hindsight I can't believe I forgot the Cybermen one... :-#

Cheers.

ShadowMaat
July 8th, 2008, 07:39 AM
Pfft! The Doctor has to snap his fingers to get the doors to close, but Doctor Donna just has to LOOK at them! No wonder he wiped her memories, he couldn't stand the competition! :P

Mr Prophet
July 8th, 2008, 09:05 AM
Dalek Caan closing the TARDIS door, wtf, does he have a TARDIS door remote or something? And how was he able to manpulate everything? It just didn't make any sense to me.

Donnas mum being a total dick to the Doctor, would have loved to see her exterminated.

Not finding out what was going on regarding Davros being the Daleks pet.

Dalek Caan was manipulating things because he was the Bad Wolf. His emergency temporal shift showed him the unshielded vortex; presumably just for a moment, or he would have been as powerful as Rose had been and then dead, but enough to make him mad and let him shove things along as well as seeing the pattern.

Or it was the hand.

And Donna's mother was having a go at the Doctor because otherwise she'd have to face the fact that she was responsible for turning her daughter into a horid, cackling monstrosity by constantly treading on her self-esteem. Easier to blame the Doctor for everything. Note her failure to respond when the Doctor suggested she tell Donna how great she is from time to time: she knew that she'd never once done it.

Davros was being kept in the vaults to build stuff for the Daleks. It's well-established that they find it useful to keep an inventive supergenius around in case of similarly linear enemies.

Dusk
July 8th, 2008, 09:13 AM
I think I've just about had enough of getting used to a new female companion, so come next year, let's hope it's a male companion or two companions together, like the good ol' days.

One of my favourite scenes in this episode was the return of the TARDIS at the brink of destruction. The looks of excitement on everyone's faces as their hair is whipped about by some temporal wind and the grinding squeal of the inbound blue box. I think that we need to see more of the TARDIS in coming episodes. Let's explore it for goodness sake, it has hundreds of rooms and hidden features. And notice we miss out on seeing the Doctor repair the ship, but jump into the scene just as he says "All repaired. Lovely!" as if he had engaged some sort of regeneration.

I reckon the Meddling Monk will make an appearance in the future of the series, and he also has a TARDIS - a Mark IV, better than the Doctor's. It would be good to tie him into the Time War storyline.

As for the Specials, all I've heard is that one of them will be a sort of clip show. I would also really enjoy a few more historical trips, preferably outside of the UK. The TARDIS has been to Australia only once on screen, and that was back in 1967! Mind you, the Daleks also had a base in the Opera House at one stage too. Weird.

But yes, more companions, more TARDIS, more places outside the UK. What will Moffat deliver?

Alipeeps
July 8th, 2008, 09:25 AM
Dalek Caan was manipulating things because he was the Bad Wolf. His emergency temporal shift showed him the unshielded vortex; presumably just for a moment, or he would have been as powerful as Rose had been and then dead, but enough to make him mad and let him shove things along as well as seeing the pattern.

Rose became Bad Wolf from looking into the heart of the TARDIS, not the unshielded vortex. She absorbed the energy of the time vortex and that's what allowed her to move things around and affect events through time and space like seeding the Bad Wolf message - to the best of our knowledge, Dalek Caan didn't absorb anything. He simply saw all of time, including the entire past and future of the Daleks.


I think that we need to see more of the TARDIS in coming episodes. Let's explore it for goodness sake, it has hundreds of rooms and hidden features. And notice we miss out on seeing the Doctor repair the ship, but jump into the scene just as he says "All repaired. Lovely!" as if he had engaged some sort of regeneration.


I really, *really* want to see this in future eps. I know it's probably an expense issue as it involves building new sets but in four years of new Who we've NEVER seen anything more of the TARDIS than the control room and a brief glimpse of a wardrobe room. I vaguely recall in the classic series seeing lots of different rooms in the TARDIS and I want to see this explored more in new Who.

Dusk
July 8th, 2008, 09:43 AM
I vaguely recall in the classic series seeing lots of different rooms in the TARDIS and I want to see this explored more in new Who.

Yes, well if they could afford back then, they can surely afford it now.

Jonzey
July 8th, 2008, 10:47 AM
I really, *really* want to see this in future eps. I know it's probably an expense issue as it involves building new sets but in four years of new Who we've NEVER seen anything more of the TARDIS than the control room and a brief glimpse of a wardrobe room. I vaguely recall in the classic series seeing lots of different rooms in the TARDIS and I want to see this explored more in new Who.

Oh, I have some brilliant ideas for that. I'm gonna start writing some stuff for Dr Who... just for fun. If I ever get round to it I'll post them here.

huntress
July 8th, 2008, 10:54 AM
Thanks for the reply guys, I'll have to keep my eyes out for it, however like I'm going to remember in 2009 that I want it. I'll have to stick a big note somewhere visible.

:laugh: I don't have to do that. I know I WILL remember because those two albums are very high up on the list of scores I want in the future. "The Golden Compass" by Alexandre Desplat was also on that list but he totally dissapointed me.

Back to "Journey's End". i read that some of you guys thought that the story with Rose and the doctor was a happy end. Whatever makes you think that. For me that part hurts something fierce. There is the doctor and looses the one woman he loves more then anything to a copy of himself. How totally frakked up is that and Rose - she doesn't get the doctor but a different version of him and the way she looked at the end there is no telling that she will accept him. Deep in my heart I hope so but from the scenes we saw it is not so sure.

I re-watched the finale on Monday and the very last scene made me cry. That hurt so much. The emptines in the TARDIS, almost deafening and the doctor all alone. God that must hurt after having it filled with so much life just a short while before.

Sealurk
July 8th, 2008, 10:56 AM
I wondered if the reason we haven't seen much of the TARDIS's interior, from a plot point, is because there isn't much of one left. It's purely speculation, but the Doctor has said that he was on the frontlines of the Time War, and the TARDIS was obsolete and old when he stole it (apparently), and something as epic as a time war has to have serious repercussions even for the Doctor (it probably caused the 8-to-9 regeneration, after all). So maybe the TARDIS didn't escape the war unscathed.

The TARDIS has lost chunks of itself before - while I never watched much of Old Who, I've looked a lot of it up, and in one of the 5th Doctor eps, a lot of the TARDIS is jettisoned to allow the ship to escape the Big Bang...I think. Let me know if I'm completely wrong.

GateGipsy
July 8th, 2008, 12:48 PM
There wasn't anything to indicate that Caan closed the door, and for me it doesn't fit. I believe that the Tardis kept Donna in there.

rosey_angel
July 8th, 2008, 10:25 PM
things i loved:

*the get-out-of-regeneration-free idea, two doctors! brilliant
*jacquie! mickey! with BIG GUNS!
*doctor/rose back together! they so cute
*rose/jack together again!
*the DoctorDonna! she was so great, so funny
*mickey, jack, martha! two new TW employees perhaps?
*TARDIS with 6 pilots! *faints* so cool!
*doctor and rose recognising gwen
*K9!
... there's prolly more, but i can't remember them at the moment

things i hated:
*loosing donna.

Dusk
July 9th, 2008, 01:53 AM
I re-watched the finale on Monday and the very last scene made me cry. That hurt so much. The emptines in the TARDIS, almost deafening and the doctor all alone. God that must hurt after having it filled with so much life just a short while before.

Oh I know, I know!! It is evil, and awful, and just plain wrong. Here is a man who will come to his final death having touched the lives of so so many, but ultimately be left to fade away into spacedust in solitude and desolation. If the series ends with the Doctor's final hurrah, we're all gonna just be emotional messes. This is why they need to reunite him with his family, or someone, anyone he knew back on Gallifrey. There surely must have been a survivor. It just hurts so much to see him as an eternal drifter with endless friends but finite companionship.

Alipeeps
July 9th, 2008, 03:44 AM
Oh I know, I know!! It is evil, and awful, and just plain wrong. Here is a man who will come to his final death having touched the lives of so so many, but ultimately be left to fade away into spacedust in solitude and desolation. If the series ends with the Doctor's final hurrah, we're all gonna just be emotional messes. This is why they need to reunite him with his family, or someone, anyone he knew back on Gallifrey. There surely must have been a survivor. It just hurts so much to see him as an eternal drifter with endless friends but finite companionship.

Oh but I love that about him. I love my dark and angsty Doctor. :)

ori soldier
July 9th, 2008, 08:01 AM
i hated this ep it reminded me of why i stopped watching doctor who

the thing ive noticed is that in doctor who they are really good at building up the tension giving us an ep like the stolen earth but its like the writers dont know where to go from there so we get an ep like this where humans face the brink of destruction and the writers dont know how to resolve it so they just have a character say some long words that dont make sense press a few buttons and all the bad guys explode. what a load of ****

dont even get me started on rose in this ep

rating: 3/10

Pitry
July 9th, 2008, 08:08 AM
i hated this ep it reminded me of why i stopped watching doctor who

the thing ive noticed is that in doctor who they are really good at building up the tension giving us an ep like the stolen earth but its like the writers dont know where to go from there so we get an ep like this where humans face the brink of destruction and the writers dont know how to resolve it so they just have a character say some long words that dont make sense press a few buttons and all the bad guys explode. what a load of ****

dont even get me started on rose in this ep

rating: 3/10

Mmmmmnope, I would say the thing is about this series, the brink of destructions for humans is the excuse, not the reason.If there ever was a series whose plots are there to serve the characters, it's DW. And frankly, that's one of the reasons I like it better than Stargate Atlantis, for example.

scarimor
July 9th, 2008, 11:18 AM
There wasn't anything to indicate that Caan closed the door, and for me it doesn't fit. I believe that the Tardis kept Donna in there.
Caan decreed, and it was done :)

It was a step to creating DoctorDonna. It was one thread in the pattern. One of several towards the destiny they spoke of when HumanDoctor recongnised all the coincidences that weren't and saw the pattern, not yet complete.

Davros did not blame the TARDIS. He blamed Caan's betrayal. Caan done it :)

Alipeeps
July 9th, 2008, 01:53 PM
Davros did not blame the TARDIS. He blamed Caan's betrayal. Caan done it :)

Davros blamed Caan for lying to him - for misleading him that the end that he foresaw, the end that he had been pushing Davros towards, was the end Davros wanted, the end of everything, rather than the end of the Daleks.

GateGipsy
July 10th, 2008, 02:03 AM
Caan wasn't decreeing - he was saying what was going to happen because he had seen the future.

rosey_angel
July 10th, 2008, 02:22 AM
I don't think it was Caan or any of the daleks who closed the TARDIS door. like the big red one said (damn it i've seen the ep twice and still can't remember his name!), the TARDIS is Timelord technology, nothing to do with the Daleks. It's not the first time, even in this series, that the TARDIS has done something of its own accord to keep the timelines as they should be.

P-90_177
July 10th, 2008, 02:36 AM
I don't think it was Caan or any of the daleks who closed the TARDIS door. like the big red one said (damn it i've seen the ep twice and still can't remember his name!), the TARDIS is Timelord technology, nothing to do with the Daleks. It's not the first time, even in this series, that the TARDIS has done something of its own accord to keep the timelines as they should be.

Caan was effecting the timelines though all through the season. He had turned into a sort of less powerful, Dalek version of the Bad Wolf I guess so closeing a door would be within his influence as long as he saw what was going to happen.

The red Dalek was the Supreme Dalek by the way.

Alipeeps
July 10th, 2008, 03:37 AM
I don't think it was Caan or any of the daleks who closed the TARDIS door. like the big red one said (damn it i've seen the ep twice and still can't remember his name!), the TARDIS is Timelord technology, nothing to do with the Daleks. It's not the first time, even in this series, that the TARDIS has done something of its own accord to keep the timelines as they should be.

Indeed. We've already seen in The Doctor's Daughter the combination of the hand and the TARDIS cause events to happen in order to facilitate events happening... if that makes any sense? :lol:

The event of Donna becoming a human being with a Time Lord consciousness was such a specific and unusual event that it rippled backwards through time (much as clone Doctor explained that his unique nature had caused his heartbeat to ripple backwards in time to affect Donna) and caused the time lines to converge around Donna and make things happen to bring her to the circumstances where she would become a human being with a Time Lord consciousness.


Caan was effecting the timelines though all through the season. He had turned into a sort of less powerful, Dalek version of the Bad Wolf I guess so closeing a door would be within his influence as long as he saw what was going to happen.

The red Dalek was the Supreme Dalek by the way.

It was never stated that Caan was in any way a Dalek Bad Wolf or had any similar abilities to affect time. He SAW time and saw what would happen and he used his knowledge and prophecy to help push the Daleks towards that happening. As he told the Doctor, this was always going to happen - he just helped. I simply can't see, without it being stated that Caan had some kind of Bad Wolf powers to affect time and space etc, how he could have had any kind of ability to influence events outside of the Dalek empire. How could he have possibly influenced the Doctor and Donna's meetings? His influence in bringing events to pass was in bringing the Daleks to that situation at that time.

scarimor
July 10th, 2008, 07:26 AM
Perhaps Jar!Hand snapped his fingers, lol!

huntress
July 10th, 2008, 07:38 AM
"Journey's End" has been ghosting through my mind ever since it has aired and I doubt it will change soon. Some more random thoughts about the episode and everything that is connected to it


Let's start with Donna. I know that her memories have been repressed BUT the doctor didn't take them - just repressed them and the problem is, that none of the other "children of time" (love that moniker - even better then ducklings and scoobie gang) know that. They know and love Donna, they know that she is partially a time lord. Chances are very high that Jack, Martha and Mickey who are now probably all working with Torchood now will run into some serious kind of trouble and scream for the doctor or hope the doctor would be around but know that he is somewhere else in time and space. Can't you all just imagine them sitting and brooding together what to do and the whole lot snips with their fingers and shout "Of course! Donna!" They think of course that Donna is still with the doctor but all three know that the companions call regularly home and they do know where Donna lives. Imagine the surprise when they see Donna at home and how they approach her. I am pretty sure that they would do something that would trigger the release of the repressed memories and DonnaDoktor is back. The question though is - will Donna be able to cope? I am hoping that Torchwood will be able to help her deal with the vast knowledge. Also, Donna basically knows everything that the doctor does. I am sure there are enough villains around (for example The Trickster) who will try to get that information. So one way or another Donna has to be re-activated. She is like Jean Grey as Phoenix. She has a power that is too mighty for her......okay and Jean became the Dark Phoenix mmmmh it would be interesting if Donna would become something like the female version of The Master...mmmmh

You see way too many ideas for Donna and if I - a mere fan- have so many ideas then I am pretty sure that RTD and Stephen Moffat equally have a couple of ideas. Also Catherine Tate was really rather sorry to go She had really enjoyed herself.

The Doctor 2.0. : I do think that Rose will be able to make some more space for a slightly different version of the doctor. After all he is not that different. He still looks like Ten, talks like Ten and has the knowledge of Ten except that he is now mortal, has no TARDIS and no sonic screw driver. HOWEVER. I do believe that even in the parallel universe there had once been a doctor - like in the parallel universe we saw in "Turn Left" were that version of UNIT (or was it Torchwood not sure I have to re-watch the episode) salvaged the TARDIS . Maybe that other doctor died at some point and maybe UNIT or Torchwood have found a TARDIS and the technology in the TARDIS allowed them to build those machines that allowed them jump between universes. We know that the doctor 2.0 had no problems in flying the TARDIS because she accepted him so I am sure that if there is a different version of the TARDIS in that other universe then she will accept him too. So if he wanted to he could travel again with Rose. If there is no TARDIS then I am pretty sure that the doctor will work with and for Torchwood or Unit. Especially Unit always accepted him as a commanding officer. Whatever will happen, I am sure the doctor will keep on fighting aliens and be himself only this time he has Rose as his lover by his side.

Maybe that is too optimistic but I want to believe that.

scarimor
July 10th, 2008, 07:39 AM
Caan wasn't decreeing - he was saying what was going to happen because he had seen the future.
So you didn't believe him? Interesting.

Naonak
July 10th, 2008, 08:47 AM
Let's start with Donna. I know that her memories have been repressed BUT the doctor didn't take them - just repressed them and the problem is, that none of the other "children of time" (love that moniker - even better then ducklings and scoobie gang) know that.
I'm sure that the Doctor would send them a message to tell them.

P-90_177
July 10th, 2008, 09:10 AM
It was never stated that Caan was in any way a Dalek Bad Wolf or had any similar abilities to affect time. He SAW time and saw what would happen and he used his knowledge and prophecy to help push the Daleks towards that happening. As he told the Doctor, this was always going to happen - he just helped. I simply can't see, without it being stated that Caan had some kind of Bad Wolf powers to affect time and space etc, how he could have had any kind of ability to influence events outside of the Dalek empire. How could he have possibly influenced the Doctor and Donna's meetings? His influence in bringing events to pass was in bringing the Daleks to that situation at that time.

The way I understood it is that Caan was manipulating time to make sure Donna was in the right place at the right time. Afterall Doctor 2.0 did say:

"You parked your car right where the TARDIS was going to land! That's not coincidence! Something's been drawing us together for such a long time."

However Caan said that it would have happend anyway. Which probably means that the Doctor still would have met up with the Doctor again but not then, meaning that she wouldn't have had that time to grow as a person and also that possibly it would have meant more lives would have been lost. Certainly Donna wouldn't have been able to help the Doctor the way she did in their travels and be a great friend to him.

Yes he did manipulate the daleks as well, but If caan felt the dalek empire needed to be destroyed then surely there were easier ways than that. The only other thing is that Bad Wolf herself manipulated the time line to make sure Doctor and Donna met like that when Rose looked inside the Heart of the TARDIS, just as she left just one last message out there for the doctor, but if she could do that then why not just wipe out the daleks in the future anyway and save everyone that was killed. Afterall there was no magic reset button like in last season. The Daleks invaded and no doubt hundreds if not thousands of people died.

Alipeeps
July 10th, 2008, 09:39 AM
Let's start with Donna. I know that her memories have been repressed BUT the doctor didn't take them - just repressed them

He said that he wiped her memories, not repressed them. Wiped. Gone.


and the problem is, that none of the other "children of time" (love that moniker - even better then ducklings and scoobie gang) know that. They know and love Donna, they know that she is partially a time lord.

I don't know about love Donna. All of them only met her this once. And I'm pretty sure if the Doctor warned her parents so strongly that they can't EVER tell her anything about him or the TARDIS or what happened, he would think to warn Torchwood etc too.


Chances are very high that Jack, Martha and Mickey who are now probably all working with Torchood now will run into some serious kind of trouble and scream for the doctor or hope the doctor would be around but know that he is somewhere else in time and space.

I don't think the chances are that high. In their own series they have never called on the Doctor and in Doctor Who the Doctor has never called on SJ to help (hadn't been in touch with her, didn't know about Luke etc) or on Torchwood to help. It's only in the extreme circumstances of The Stolen Earth that they have called on him.


Can't you all just imagine them sitting and brooding together what to do and the whole lot snips with their fingers and shout "Of course! Donna!" They think of course that Donna is still with the doctor but all three know that the companions call regularly home and they do know where Donna lives.

Only Rose knows/knew where Donna lives. None of the others have ever been there. I'm sure Torchwood could easily find out, but still...

And if they needed to contact the Doctor - Martha (and now Jack) still has his phone number.


Imagine the surprise when they see Donna at home and how they approach her. I am pretty sure that they would do something that would trigger the release of the repressed memories and DonnaDoktor is back.

But the Doctor Donna wouldn't be back - she'd die. The Doctor made it quite clear. If she remembers, even for a second, she'll burn.


The question though is - will Donna be able to cope? I am hoping that Torchwood will be able to help her deal with the vast knowledge.

It's not a question of learning to/being able to deal with the vast knowledge... her body simply cannot physically handle containing a Time Lord consciousness. It was killing her. Would have killed her if the Doctor had not removed her memories.[/quote]


Also, Donna basically knows everything that the doctor does. I am sure there are enough villains around (for example The Trickster) who will try to get that information. So one way or another Donna has to be re-activated. She is like Jean Grey as Phoenix. She has a power that is too mighty for her......okay and Jean became the Dark Phoenix mmmmh it would be interesting if Donna would become something like the female version of The Master...mmmmh

You see way too many ideas for Donna and if I - a mere fan- have so many ideas then I am pretty sure that RTD and Stephen Moffat equally have a couple of ideas. Also Catherine Tate was really rather sorry to go She had really enjoyed herself.

I can't see any of this ever happening. The whole point of the tragedy of Donna is that this is forever - there is no going back. The knowledge is wiped from her mind and if she ever should remember, even for a second, it would kill her.


The Doctor 2.0. : I do think that Rose will be able to make some more space for a slightly different version of the doctor. After all he is not that different. He still looks like Ten, talks like Ten and has the knowledge of Ten except that he is now mortal, has no TARDIS and no sonic screw driver. HOWEVER. I do believe that even in the parallel universe there had once been a doctor - like in the parallel universe we saw in "Turn Left" were that version of UNIT (or was it Torchwood not sure I have to re-watch the episode) salvaged the TARDIS . Maybe that other doctor died at some point and maybe UNIT or Torchwood have found a TARDIS and the technology in the TARDIS allowed them to build those machines that allowed them jump between universes. We know that the doctor 2.0 had no problems in flying the TARDIS because she accepted him so I am sure that if there is a different version of the TARDIS in that other universe then she will accept him too. So if he wanted to he could travel again with Rose. If there is no TARDIS then I am pretty sure that the doctor will work with and for Torchwood or Unit. Especially Unit always accepted him as a commanding officer. Whatever will happen, I am sure the doctor will keep on fighting aliens and be himself only this time he has Rose as his lover by his side.

Maybe that is too optimistic but I want to believe that.

The parallel universe in Turn Left was essentially an off-shoot of this universe (the one containing the Doctor). There was still a TARDIS in that universe because it was a reality that branched off after the Doctor in this universe was killed. That in no way means that there are Doctors or TARDISes in other, unrelated, universes like Pete's World.

I do think the Doctor in the universe with Rose will end up working at Torchwood with her cos what else is he going to do? His knowledge would be valuable... and it would give him his required dose of adventure and risk! :lol:

huntress
July 10th, 2008, 11:15 AM
He said that he wiped her memories, not repressed them. Wiped. Gone.

Nope he didn't. That's why he said to grandpa and her mom to never, ever mention him because she would remember again and that would probably kill her.

Well Martha has become close friends with her in matter of minutes, Rose likes her, it is the thing everybody really liked Donna,.

Rergarding calling the doctor: Jack would have loved to call the doctor. When the Torchwood gang asked him what would have made him change his mind and open the rift he said "the right kind of doctor", so if Torchwood is in a really, really tight spot then I am sure that would just hope that the doctor is around somewhere.

Torchwood KNOWS where everybody lives. They can tap in on virtually any computer system. CCTV is their big eye around Cardiff, so if they want to know where Donna lives they will find out in no time.

Anubis69
July 10th, 2008, 11:41 AM
Yes he did manipulate the daleks as well, but If caan felt the dalek empire needed to be destroyed then surely there were easier ways than that.
If he saw all of time, he also saw their demise and hence he really had no choice in the method of killing them as it had, theoretically, already happened.

Dusk
July 10th, 2008, 10:58 PM
OK, I'm coming back to the prophecy that "one will die". Has anyone speculated that this event might occur in the near future? As in the 2009 Specials? It just seems hollow and cheated to hammer this fact the entire episode only to have no one really die. Surely RTD isn't that facetious.

Alipeeps
July 11th, 2008, 01:08 AM
OK, I'm coming back to the prophecy that "one will die". Has anyone speculated that this event might occur in the near future? As in the 2009 Specials? It just seems hollow and cheated to hammer this fact the entire episode only to have no one really die. Surely RTD isn't that facetious.

It meant Donna. To all intents and purposes, the Donna we knew is dead.

huntress
July 11th, 2008, 01:26 AM
It seems quite a few people here have a problem wrapping their minds around that. It was really rather elegant and philosophical.

scarimor
July 11th, 2008, 02:22 AM
It seems quite a few people here have a problem wrapping their minds around that. It was really rather elegant and philosophical.
Yeah. The confusion... confuses me :p I'm also confused as to why some people are confused re. Caan's role. He told us what he'd done.

Madeleine
July 11th, 2008, 05:06 AM
I'm also confused as to why some people are confused re. Caan's role. He told us what he'd done.

I would imagine that Caans trait of flitting from literal to metaphorical language is the source of the dissent about Caan's role: it's hard to assert with certainty that what Caan said on one occasion was literal truth when he's got such a knack of dissembling with his meanings anyway. So if Caan said what he'd done, it doesn't mean that we know how he did it, nor if he did it by design and effort, or just claims credit for it because he allowed it to happen.

wise one
July 11th, 2008, 05:58 AM
the doctor said davros was working with someone like a pet but davros said he has some sort of arrangment

i didnt think he mean caan

maybe someone more powerful???

Alipeeps
July 11th, 2008, 06:19 AM
the doctor said davros was working with someone like a pet but davros said he has some sort of arrangment

i didnt think he mean caan

maybe someone more powerful???

It was the Daleks. The Doctor realised that Davros wasn't in command of the Daleks, they were keeping him in the basement and "allowing" him to help carry out the plan to destroy everything. He had no control or power over them. Davros was trying to save face when he said they had an arrangement - the arrangement was that they were keeping him around and making use of him and his plan but he had no power, no control.

jds1982
July 11th, 2008, 02:41 PM
Anyone have any idea where Rose, Jackie, and Mickey got Dalek eliminating weaponry from? The universe they were in had trouble fighting Cybermen, but now they have guns that can blow up a Dalek. Of course Jack had a gun that insta killed Daleks as well, maybe they got theirs from their version of Torchwood.

Willow'sCat
July 11th, 2008, 10:24 PM
The TARDIS has lost chunks of itself before - while I never watched much of Old Who, I've looked a lot of it up, and in one of the 5th Doctor eps, a lot of the TARDIS is jettisoned to allow the ship to escape the Big Bang...I think. Let me know if I'm completely wrong.
Well it is a living thing, so maybe it can grow new rooms. The T.A.R.D.I.S has loads of room, Tegan got lost when she went looking around it back in Davison's time.

I know it had two control rooms, and it lost it's Zero room during Davison's era. *shrugs* I doubt all that is left is the control room, also we did see DT go into the massive wardrobe (room) to pick out his new threads... :)

Dusk
July 11th, 2008, 11:05 PM
It seems quite a few people here have a problem wrapping their minds around that. It was really rather elegant and philosophical.


I can comprehend the deeper meaning of 'dying' in this sense, but to use the phrase "one of them will die" is grossly misleading and deplorable as a marketing stint. The Oxford dictionary defines 'dying' as to 'stop living'. Clearly, Donna lives on, and I think applying the word to matters of a non-biological sense is inappropriate to say the least. "Oh, the Donna we knew is dead", "Donna died and went back to being her old self", "The death of Donna's memories was tragic"... phrases like this justify my frustrations: Donna didn't die, even her memories didn't "die", they were suppressed. And in fact, it would have been correct for Caan to exclaim that "one of them will be suppressed" or "one of them will be reverted". Haha, does it excite the audience? No. Is it in fact infinitely more correct than saying "she will die"? Oh yes.

Bottomline: falsifying hyperbole! :mckay:

ShadowMaat
July 11th, 2008, 11:15 PM
Well, they did the same thing with Rose, didn't they? The Beast said she was going to "die in battle" or something and- while technically it could still be true at some point down the road- they wrote it off as her "dying" in this universe and being sent to another one.

Mamid
July 11th, 2008, 11:51 PM
it wasn't her ring they've focussed on, it was her hand. Her right hand. The hand that touched the jar as it broke.

And even though her memory is "wiped" she still has some residue like a hard drive. the right "program" or trigger and everything would come back and she'd burn up.

I had a nerdgasm watching the episode.

Mr Prophet
July 11th, 2008, 11:55 PM
Anyone have any idea where Rose, Jackie, and Mickey got Dalek eliminating weaponry from? The universe they were in had trouble fighting Cybermen, but now they have guns that can blow up a Dalek. Of course Jack had a gun that insta killed Daleks as well, maybe they got theirs from their version of Torchwood.

Jack's gun was the souped-up defabricator from Bad Wolf. The Doctor had already upgraded alt-Torchwood's guns to work on Daleks; the Cult of Skaro remodulated their shields, but alt-Torchwood had presumably had a few more months - if not years; what was that about Rose's universe being ahead of the prime? - to upgrade even further.

Alipeeps
July 12th, 2008, 05:42 AM
Jack's gun was the souped-up defabricator from Bad Wolf. The Doctor had already upgraded alt-Torchwood's guns to work on Daleks; the Cult of Skaro remodulated their shields, but alt-Torchwood had presumably had a few more months - if not years; what was that about Rose's universe being ahead of the prime? - to upgrade even further.

Did he? When was that then? I don't remember that....

Mr Prophet
July 12th, 2008, 08:19 AM
Did he? When was that then? I don't remember that....

It's in Doomsday, although... Okay, it might actually have been out of Doomsday and I'm misremembering. There's basically a scene missing from Doomsday which certainly explains why the Cybermen suddenly seem to be working with the Doctor. The bit where he gizmos the blasters to work on bonded polycarbide shells may have been in there as well.

scarimor
July 12th, 2008, 10:12 AM
I would imagine that Caans trait of flitting from literal to metaphorical language is the source of the dissent about Caan's role: it's hard to assert with certainty that what Caan said on one occasion was literal truth when he's got such a knack of dissembling with his meanings anyway. So if Caan said what he'd done, it doesn't mean that we know how he did it, nor if he did it by design and effort, or just claims credit for it because he allowed it to happen.
But he didn't say, "Btw, I shut the TARDIS door on Donna." There isn't really any literal/metaphorical dichotomy to be had. What I'm wondering is, if Caan is not the weaver of the pattern identified by Human!Doctor, who do viewers who think otherwise think is?

Um.. apologies for poor style there :p

Maybe someone else did shut the door at that moment, but I can't think who fits that role given the narrative we have before us. Maybe something else will crop up later to throw a different perspective on it, but atm there isn't one. Given the rest of the shoving and nudging that the weaver is responsible for (those remarkable coincidences re the Doctor and Donna), a bit of bog-standard telekinesis doesn't seem special by comparison in Who lore, really.


It was the Daleks. The Doctor realised that Davros wasn't in command of the Daleks, they were keeping him in the basement and "allowing" him to help carry out the plan to destroy everything. He had no control or power over them. Davros was trying to save face when he said they had an arrangement - the arrangement was that they were keeping him around and making use of him and his plan but he had no power, no control.
Yep. That Red Dalek was the big gangsta :D

Pitry
July 12th, 2008, 12:56 PM
I can comprehend the deeper meaning of 'dying' in this sense, but to use the phrase "one of them will die" is grossly misleading and deplorable as a marketing stint. The Oxford dictionary defines 'dying' as to 'stop living'. Clearly, Donna lives on, and I think applying the word to matters of a non-biological sense is inappropriate to say the least. "Oh, the Donna we knew is dead", "Donna died and went back to being her old self", "The death of Donna's memories was tragic"... phrases like this justify my frustrations: Donna didn't die, even her memories didn't "die", they were suppressed. And in fact, it would have been correct for Caan to exclaim that "one of them will be suppressed" or "one of them will be reverted". Haha, does it excite the audience? No. Is it in fact infinitely more correct than saying "she will die"? Oh yes.

Bottomline: falsifying hyperbole! :mckay:

Which comes back to the question of how do you define life. A version of Donna lived on, that's for sure. But as someone who believes we are the sum of our memories and experience, that version of Donna who survived isn't the Dionna we've been watching for 13 episodes. That Donna stopped living. She wasn't "suppressed". Until further knowledge/ them getting CT for another special guest appearance/ whatever, they were not supressed because this would mean they can be accessed again. They can't. If they are accessed again, no version of Donna will survive.

ShadowMaat
July 12th, 2008, 06:48 PM
re: TARDIS doors- I assumed it was a future echo thing and that the power of what Donna did sent ripples back down the timeline. I think the Doctor hinted as much, but while it's mostly been esoteric stuff I think the slamming doors was just a more physical manifestation of the event. The thing is, they always talk about ripples being sent backward, but what about forward, too? Will we see any echoes in S5 for instance? After all, we still got some "echoes" of Bad Wolf. :)

Madeleine
July 13th, 2008, 01:13 AM
But he didn't say, "Btw, I shut the TARDIS door on Donna." There isn't really any literal/metaphorical dichotomy to be had. What I'm wondering is, if Caan is not the weaver of the pattern identified by Human!Doctor, who do viewers who think otherwise think is?

I reckon the pattern wove itself around Donna, because of Donna. She was 'special' and she had this unique destiny. Rose finding Donna's specialness all over the timeline wasn't about anything Caan did, I reckon, it was about Donna and what she was going to become. And even though her ultimate fate was only one of many possibilities, it was such a big deal that it exerted an influence on the timeline anyway. Sort of like Jenny was only a possibility, at the point that everyone got into the Tardis after the Sontaran thing; but just the possibility of her was such a big deal that the Tardis went to where she would be created, so that she could be created.


Maybe someone else did shut the door at that moment, but I can't think who fits that role given the narrative we have before us.

Probably the Tardis itself. Whether it's conscious in any way or not, it's not just a box, after all; it is psychic enough to know that a snap of the fingers means 'shut', and it does have a tendency to follow its own agenda (viz turning up in Cardiff instead of London, or on the wrong part of New Earth, because 'weirdness' was afoot) and it's even been known to respond prematurely to the necessities of wibbley wobbley timey wimey stuff (viz turning up ready for the Doctor to have his cells turned into a daughter, because the very fact of the daughter existing in the future drew the Tardis there, even though the daughter hadn't happenned yet.)

huntress
July 13th, 2008, 05:11 AM
I also think it was the TARDIS itself that closed the doors. I do think it is conscious. She decided to help Rose instead of rendering her mad as a punishment for looking straight at her heart. It was her way of helpong the doctor or turned the Slitheen back into an egg and gave her a second chance. Even the Enterprise D developed a consciousness so why shouldn't the TARDIS? She is after all much, much older then the Enterprise. Also in the movie the TARDIS revived those people at the end it was certainly not the doctor doing it.

Madeleine
July 13th, 2008, 10:45 AM
I do think it is conscious. She... turned the Slitheen back into an egg and gave her a second chance.

Fair point, you're probably right.

Bob790
July 13th, 2008, 11:35 AM
I just rewatched this episode and something suddenly occurred to me.


one: (pronoun) (...) 3 third person sing. used to refer to the speaker, or any person, as representing people in general.

What if Caan's "One will die" was referring to his own death?

huntress
July 13th, 2008, 11:46 AM
I just rewatched this episode and something suddenly occurred to me.



What if Caan's "One will die" was referring to his own death?

You are not alone there. That also occured to me too but Caan wasn't a companion. Caans role was weird. He is clearly the enemy yet he helped the doctor over time and space to distroy his own kind because he hated what Davros has created but he also still hates the doctor and is gleeful about the demise of a companion.

Bob790
July 13th, 2008, 12:57 PM
You are not alone there. That also occured to me too but Caan wasn't a companion. Caan's role was weird. He is clearly the enemy yet he helped the doctor over time and space to destroy his own kind because he hated what Davros has created but he also still hates the doctor and is gleeful about the demise of a companion.

He didn't say that a companion would die (at least I didn't notice it Journey's end. He said "One will die" which as my dictionary quote made clear, could have been a self referential pronoun, meaning that he was just trying to trick Davros. "The children of time have gathered and one will die," is a great piece of deceptive word play. (I know RTD never uses word play to fool people but...)

Reefgirl
July 13th, 2008, 02:10 PM
Who said that 'The Children of Time' exclusivly meant the Companions, Children of Time could have meant the Daleks too, the phrase covers a lot of ground

Alipeeps
July 13th, 2008, 02:38 PM
He didn't say that a companion would die (at least I didn't notice it Journey's end. He said "One will die" which as my dictionary quote made clear, could have been a self referential pronoun, meaning that he was just trying to trick Davros. "The children of time have gathered and one will die," is a great piece of deceptive word play. (I know RTD never uses word play to fool people but...)

He also sais "everlasting death for the most faithful companion" (back in The Stolen Earth I think) which is pretty unambiguously about one of the companions.

lacourse
July 13th, 2008, 02:43 PM
I was sure it was going to be the TARDIS as well, which it almost was (and I'm really annoyed at Donna's fate!!), but as for the music, I can't help you. I've never heard it before on Who, but I expect it was another piece by Murray Gold, who as far as I am concerned has done wonders for the new series (I think his Gallifrey theme is amazing). It'll probably turn up on the season four soundtrack CD.

I did think towing Earth was one of the standout moments of the episode, something so jaw-droppingly huge only a Time Lord would even think of it, and positive to boot (rare in TV sci-fi, I think!), what with all the companions and the outcome. The music certainly suited it. do you no the title of that track it sent shivers down my spine.

Sealurk
July 13th, 2008, 03:21 PM
Not yet, as I don't think the soundtrack is going to be available for a while. However, if it's of any use or interest, its basically the same as the song the Ood sing at the end of Planet of the Ood, only much more dramatic and orchestral. It's a great piece of music - Murray Gold doing what he does best again.

huntress
July 14th, 2008, 12:28 AM
It sucks that we will probably have to wait a year or a year and half until we will get the new soundtrack. Maybe ...just MAYBE the Beep will be really, really nice and allow a realease for Christmas. That would be grand. Maybe if enough people begged them?

scarimor
July 14th, 2008, 08:44 AM
I reckon the pattern wove itself around Donna, because of Donna.
Aieee! A sentient pattern! *glances warily at my tartan cushion cover* :p


She was 'special' and she had this unique destiny. Rose finding Donna's specialness all over the timeline wasn't about anything Caan did, I reckon, it was about Donna and what she was going to become.
Oh I'm pretty sure that's true. Caan didn't create. In his own words, he helped.


And even though her ultimate fate was only one of many possibilities, it was such a big deal that it exerted an influence on the timeline anyway.
The notion of self-reflexive potentialTM is quite a nice scary one. I think I like it. I mean, the implications - what you could do with that in story-telling terms... *dreams*...


Probably the Tardis itself. Whether it's conscious in any way or not, it's not just a box, after all; it is psychic enough to know that a snap of the fingers means 'shut',...
I have a vague memory of the Doctor describing the TARDIS as sentient.

Anyway, I still say that the Doctor's handy hand snapped its fingers :)

Alipeeps
July 14th, 2008, 09:18 AM
Anyway, I still say that the Doctor's handy hand snapped its fingers :)

His handy spare hand. :D

scarimor
July 14th, 2008, 01:59 PM
His handy spare hand. :D
Hand in vitro :D

P-90_177
July 14th, 2008, 02:05 PM
It sucks that we will probably have to wait a year or a year and half until we will get the new soundtrack. Maybe ...just MAYBE the Beep will be really, really nice and allow a realease for Christmas. That would be grand. Maybe if enough people begged them?

why do we? season 3 soundtrack came out just before christmas as i recall.

beale947
July 15th, 2008, 05:51 PM
Caan was referring to DoctorDonna, not just donna when he meant compainon. And when he bocked/wiped her memories, it technically killed as she no longer existed.

That's what I think anyway :P

tombombadil
July 15th, 2008, 08:18 PM
that episode was amazing. davros has to still be alive.

gateship777
July 16th, 2008, 08:44 AM
Caan was referring to DoctorDonna, not just donna when he meant compainon. And when he bocked/wiped her memories, it technically killed as she no longer existed.

That's what I think anyway :P

exactly he said "a child of time will die" and she is no longer a child of time as she has no knowledge of meeting doctor.

lol the doctor even said that part of donna is dead :P

gateship777
July 16th, 2008, 08:46 AM
that episode was amazing. davros has to still be alive.

yeah no way they would bring a classic character back for just two episodes! i mean even k9 not more airtime lol

maybe caan did another tempal shift? or davaros did...never know

Dusk
July 16th, 2008, 08:50 AM
I'd rather he just die.

Continuously resurrecting supposedly 'dead' characters is SOOO last season...

And to that end, please no more Daleks, no more Master, no more flogging the dead. Except...

SPOILERS for one of the 2009 Specials:

The flashback special should be some sort of tribute to the Doctor's companions, but I am still keen to see how they integrate the First Doctor into the special, given that a) William Hartnell is dead (poor sod), and b) he only ever appeared in B&W. As long as the clips portion of the special is well-balanced by some cool new stuff.

gateship777
July 16th, 2008, 09:00 AM
I'd rather he just die.

Continuously resurrecting supposedly 'dead' characters is SOOO last season...

And to that end, please no more Daleks, no more Master, no more flogging the dead. Except...

SPOILERS for one of the 2009 Specials:

The flashback special should be some sort of tribute to the Doctor's companions, but I am still keen to see how they integrate the First Doctor into the special, given that a) William Hartnell is dead (poor sod), and b) he only ever appeared in B&W. As long as the clips portion of the special is well-balanced by some cool new stuff.

i guess so... just its been what 40yrs and he comes back to be the imperial daleks pet! lol...kinda of of let down even though he was so cool in both episodes... i do believe that "destroyer of worlds" title is gonna be reused alot! either audio of it or flashback clip. maybe doctor gonna be companion-less next season

Master:russel has stated he will not write the master back in

daleks....they a classic but been to over used as cliffhangers or finales now. this like the 3rd season finale they been in!

AvatarIII
July 16th, 2008, 10:03 AM
i guess so... just its been what 40yrs and he comes back to be the imperial daleks pet! lol...kinda of of let down even though he was so cool in both episodes... i do believe that "destroyer of worlds" title is gonna be reused alot! either audio of it or flashback clip. maybe doctor gonna be companion-less next season

Master:russel has stated he will not write the master back in

daleks....they a classic but been to over used as cliffhangers or finales now. this like the 3rd season finale they been in!

Master: RTD is not in control any more, and i want them to bring the master back, i really hated how he was portrayed in s3!! so they need to fix it!!

gateship777
July 16th, 2008, 10:20 AM
Master: RTD is not in control any more, and i want them to bring the master back, i really hated how he was portrayed in s3!! so they need to fix it!!

master: i thought john simms did amazing job! but RTD is apparently going to be back in 2010 when new series begins. tennant is off doing hamlet and odd specials of doctor who. but when he comes back so does RTD. i think master should come back too but i think john simms portayal was great version. the whole woman picking up his ring was a writers way of saying....HE MIGHT be back as master has come back from death sooooooooooo many times!

tombombadil
July 16th, 2008, 10:24 AM
if they should bring back any classic character it should be susan foreman

gateship777
July 16th, 2008, 10:27 AM
if they should bring back any classic character it should be susan foreman

doupt that will happen in "doctors daughter" he said his family is all dead. and in previous ones hes mentioned them.

guess could be good to see his grandaughter again but would she be old lady? or still young?

Naonak
July 16th, 2008, 02:30 PM
but RTD is apparently going to be back in 2010 when new series begins. tennant is off doing hamlet and odd specials of doctor who. but when he comes back so does RTD.
Nope. RTD is still in charge for the specials next year, but for season 5, Steven Moffat's in charge.

tombombadil
July 16th, 2008, 04:12 PM
doupt that will happen in "doctors daughter" he said his family is all dead. and in previous ones hes mentioned them.

guess could be good to see his grandaughter again but would she be old lady? or still young?

her time lord satus was unknown.

P-90_177
July 16th, 2008, 04:20 PM
if they should bring back any classic character it should be susan foreman

still nah.........if they're gonna bring back any more classic companions, certainly timelords or gallifreyans anyway, the first shall be Romana. She is considered one of the most popular afterall, along with sarah jane.

Col.Foley
July 16th, 2008, 04:32 PM
still nah.........if they're gonna bring back any more classic companions, certainly timelords or gallifreyans anyway, the first shall be Romana. She is considered one of the most popular afterall, along with sarah jane.
But then you will just run into the same problem that you have with the Daleks coming back. Unless you invent a good reason why she survived.

P-90_177
July 16th, 2008, 04:34 PM
But then you will just run into the same problem that you have with the Daleks coming back. Unless you invent a good reason why she survived.

Ah yes but Romana wasn't involved in the Timewar...

tombombadil
July 16th, 2008, 04:38 PM
Ah yes but Romana wasn't involved in the Timewar...
In the BBC Books Eighth Doctor Adventures novels, Romana undergoes a second regeneration, and her new incarnation (Romana III, whose appearance was modelled on silent movie actress Louise Brooks) is far less sympathetic and far more ruthless than the other two. This third incarnation pursues the Eighth Doctor in a story arc which results in the obliteration of Gallifrey and the apparent retroactive wiping out of the Time Lords from history. However, it is hinted in Tomb of Valdemar by Simon Messingham that Romana may be one of a few Time Lords who survived this cataclysm, possibly in a fourth incarnation.
are the books considered cannon?

Col.Foley
July 16th, 2008, 04:41 PM
Ah yes but Romana wasn't involved in the Timewar...
But then you get into the whole...he would 'feel' her if she still existed. And I doubt they would try the Chameleon thing twice.

P-90_177
July 16th, 2008, 04:47 PM
But then you get into the whole...he would 'feel' her if she still existed. And I doubt they would try the Chameleon thing twice.

if i remember classic who correctly........wait hang on that's too unreliable. let me look it up.......ah here we go. in her last appearence she goes into a parrallel reality. so there's a good chance she's still there.

Col.Foley
July 16th, 2008, 04:51 PM
if i remember classic who correctly........wait hang on that's too unreliable. let me look it up.......ah here we go. in her last appearence she goes into a parrallel reality. so there's a good chance she's still there.Interesting...what if she went nuts? Could make for a powerful story.

P-90_177
July 16th, 2008, 05:04 PM
Interesting...what if she went nuts? Could make for a powerful story.

Nah. i would much prefer it if they brought back her character as a full time companion again. I mean she can regenerate so no problem there.

Col.Foley
July 16th, 2008, 05:14 PM
Nah. i would much prefer it if they brought back her character as a full time companion again. I mean she can regenerate so no problem there.One of the threads here got me thinking that what the Doctor needs again is another enemy of Master like proportions, but not the Master.

tombombadil
July 16th, 2008, 05:56 PM
One of the threads here got me thinking that what the Doctor needs again is another enemy of Master like proportions, but not the Master.

oooooooo, i like the idea of romana or susan being evil. one of them could be the one that took the master's ring.

Col.Foley
July 16th, 2008, 06:35 PM
oooooooo, i like the idea of romana or susan being evil. one of them could be the one that took the master's ring.no to that.....
and who is Susan?

Naonak
July 16th, 2008, 06:39 PM
and who is Susan?
The Doctor's granddaughter. She travelled with the First Doctor.

tombombadil
July 16th, 2008, 07:47 PM
no to that.....
and who is Susan?

doctor's granddaughter. the first doctor left her in the 22nd century with a dude she loved.

Mamid
July 16th, 2008, 10:49 PM
Romana could be completely nuts. Especially if she was the current president when the Time War happened. All those deaths...

IMO, there is a small colony of non-noble Galifreyans that don't remember because they all chameleon arched. and they are hiding to eventually rebuild.

but that's just a fanfilk that has been running through my brain...

Col.Foley
July 16th, 2008, 10:59 PM
Romana could be completely nuts. Especially if she was the current president when the Time War happened. All those deaths...

IMO, there is a small colony of non-noble Galifreyans that don't remember because they all chameleon arched. and they are hiding to eventually rebuild.

but that's just a fanfilk that has been running through my brain...Write it....PM it to me if you do...I will read it.

Reefgirl
July 17th, 2008, 12:19 AM
One of the threads here got me thinking that what the Doctor needs again is another enemy of Master like proportions, but not the Master.

So that would be The Rani

Dusk
July 17th, 2008, 10:14 AM
I say there's a good chance Susan will be back very soon, considering

That rumours suggest the First Doctor will be featured somehow in one of next year's specials

Jonzey
July 17th, 2008, 12:58 PM
Nah. i would much prefer it if they brought back her character as a full time companion again. I mean she can regenerate so no problem there.

Yes I would like that too. Problem is they could easily make it as shippy thing- the last Time Lord and the last Time Lady. Wouldn't want that really.

nx01a
July 18th, 2008, 04:23 PM
Donna Noble: The Time Lord Who Could Be YOU!

I had to watch the finale twice before I could talk about it. I was choked up about Donna. It was so sad for both her and the Doctor. She was the perfect companion! As for her being the most 'faithful companion'... Perhaps it's that, as Doctor Donna, she WAS him, partially at least. Maybe Martha would have done something like blow up a planet and get kicked out of the TARDIS, or maybe Rose would have simply gotten sick and tired of the Doctor's inability to love her in that oh so human way? Perhaps Donna would have really stayed with him forever, with the Time Lord intellect or not.

The Good:
>'The Children of Time'. Brilliant name for everyone associated.
>Davros forcing the Doctor to face his choices and those who get destroyed [willingly or otherwise] because of them. I enjoyed the montage of those killed, starting with that first sentient tree and ending with the Doctor's daughter... though she really isn't dead, but he don't know that.;) Also, more importantly, the willingness of those touched by the Doctor to destroy in order to preserve. It's something the Doctor does on a regular basis, deciding who's going to live or die in the grand scheme. Thinking about it, the only ones the Doctor's killed this season were 20,000 humans in Pompeii... He's a hypocrite. He was on the Sontaran ship in a position similar to Jack's, though not necessarily Martha's, ready and willing to to the same thing. It's ok when he does it, but not when anyone else does it? Hypocrite. What's braver: being willing to sacrifice yourself without the help of a time sense, or being willing to sacrifice yourself WITH a good sense of how time will turn out because of it?
"The man who abhors violence [...] but this is the truth: you take ordinary people and fashion them into weapons. [...] How many have died in your name? The Doctor, the man who keeps on running, never looking back because he dare not, out of shame. This is my final victory, Doctor. I have shown you yourself."
>Davros and Sarah Jane. :D I wanted to see that interaction.
>Davros is the type of villain I prefer. Not the schizo Master type or the emotionless Daleks/Cybermen. Here was a cold, calculating and genuinely evil individual, out to inflict both physical and mental trauma on his most hated enemy.
>The three-fold man. Interesting. The Doctor/The 1/2 human Doctor/the 1/2 Doctor human.
>The Earth getting towed at warp. Let's see an Enterprise, any Enterprise do that!
>Doctor Half Human and Rose. Perhaps it was too shippy, but I didn't care. I smiled seeing her kiss the 1/2 Doctor. I hope they're all happy over there. And NEVER heard from again. Think of their children of time.;)
>"I named him Doctor." "Really?" "No, yuh plum. Tony." :D
>Caan. A Dalek became a Child of Time. Wow. That Doctor's either very persuasive or the Daleks're mighty evil. My money's on both.
>Everyone helping to fly the TARDIS. That was very touching, though it just made me feel even worse for the 'death' that was to come.
>The episode would have been perfect if Davros HAD accepted the Doctor's offer and gotten in the TARDIS. Honestly, I'd love to see what the Doctor would actually DO with an evil villain who accepted his help.
>The Torchwood time lock. I'm a bit ambivalent about this. On one hand, it's a great safety measure and the Doctor was able to easily use the Rift and the whole time war is time locked, but I doubt even Tosh could effectively control it enough to create a stable time bubble. Jack, sure, but Tosh? Or, rather, humans? It seems to go against everything we know about the unstable nature of the Cardrift. If the Doctor took away Jack's teleporter, isnt a time lock a bit more dangerous?
>Mickey joining Torchwood. Interesting. Hopefully, he'll be more than the black thug guy with the guns.:( It was nice to show that he's matured and moved on from Rose. It's sad that he has nothing left in either world. I've never really liked him before, but I'm hoping his obviously forthcoming alien romp in Torchwood isn't too painful.:P
>"Who invented that?! Well, someone named Osterhagen obviously, but... WHY?!" :P The concept of a doomsday device and the reasons for its creation were nice. I don't watch Sarah Jane's adventures:P, but the warp star was interesting.
>I knew the Osterhagen key had something to do with an appliance that made icecream, just not a series of devices making the world into icecream.:D
>I think Ianto has a crush on the Doctor.:P
>Donna pushing Sarah Jane out of the way to hug Jack. :D
>Finally! The Doctor's healed after his experiences in the time war. He's still alone, but hopefully he won't be lonely.
>Donna. Her entire time with the Doctor has been temporary. Whether it was as the bride who became a Time Lady or the woman with something on her back or the wife and mother, none of it happened... because she's a temp from Chiswick. Seeing her at the very end of her existence as a Time Lady was painful, seeing her at the end of the episode as her old self was... loud. She's the person she was at the beginning of her xmas special, but she has the capacity to become someone better. Not that she was really that bad a person, but she just wasn't... finished yet. Even without the Doctor, we saw what she was capable of in 'Turn Left'. It's also sad she'll never meet her dream man from the Library.
Forget Romana, Donna's my favourite Time Lady, half or otherwise. Rest in peace, Doctor Donna.

The Bad:
>AGAIN the Doctor mucks up Jack's teleporter! WHY?! Without a set of circumstances that had nothing to do with the Doctor, Jack got it working again, and that's the only reason he was able to show up and destroy the Dalek that shot the Doctor. It's dumb.
>So, the Doctor is the destroyer/shatterer of worlds? That's his true name? Geez. We already knew that. I was hoping for something a bit more insightful and profound.
>What exactly would the Doctor have done to stop the Daleks? Leave them spinning for eternity in the Medusa Cascade? Lock them in that same time rift or the time phase pocket they created? And he's angry at the 1/2 Doctor for doing what was obviously necessary? I'd love to see the time war and see how the Doctor 'fought' Daleks? I bet he offered to help them as a ruse to give the Rani time to blow them away...
>The Doctor's reaction to the Osterhagen Key...He destroyed his homeworld and race to stop the Daleks. What's so different about Martha et al doing it? Even better: if it came down to destroying Earth to stop a threat against ALL CREATION!!!!, wouldn't he do it? Oh, he'd stretch it out and make faces, but he'd push the button, blow us up, and TARDIS off all lonely and depressed and emo.
>I really wanted to hear...
Doctor: "Who died?"
Rose: "Harriet Jones. The former Prime Minister."
Doctor: "Yes, I know who she is... was."
It would have killed the serious tone, but it would have been hilaRious!
>"We have... an arrangement.":P When I hear the word 'vault', I think of somewhere that keeps valuables safe, not a dungeon. And why would a dungeon have a device able to control every facet of the crucible as well as the Daleks themselves?
>The Cybermen? The Cybermen?! I'm waiting 6 months for the Cybermen?!?!?!?! The rest of the plot had better be golden, cause the Cybermen are seriously rusting for me.

The Verdict:
The Doctor's a blooming hypocrite sometimes, but he comes through in the end. Donna's situation broke my heart. I was thoroughly satisfied by this episode. I hope the specials and Moffat's run live up to the heights of these last four episodes.

9.5/10
[.5 deducted for the Cyberxmas trailer garbage.]

Col.Foley
July 18th, 2008, 04:36 PM
Donna Noble: The Time Lord Who Could Be YOU!

I had to watch the finale twice before I could talk about it. I was choked up about Donna. It was so sad for both her and the Doctor. She was the perfect companion! As for her being the most 'faithful companion'... Perhaps it's that, as Doctor Donna, she WAS him, partially at least. Maybe Martha would have done something like blow up a planet and get kicked out of the TARDIS, or maybe Rose would have simply gotten sick and tired of the Doctor's inability to love her in that oh so human way? Perhaps Donna would have really stayed with him forever, with the Time Lord intellect or not.

The Good:
>'The Children of Time'. Brilliant name for everyone associated.
>Davros forcing the Doctor to face his choices and those who get destroyed [willingly or otherwise] because of them. I enjoyed the montage of those killed, starting with that first sentient tree and ending with the Doctor's daughter... though she really isn't dead, but he don't know that.;) Also, more importantly, the willingness of those touched by the Doctor to destroy in order to preserve. It's something the Doctor does on a regular basis, deciding who's going to live or die in the grand scheme. Thinking about it, the only ones the Doctor's killed this season were 20,000 humans in Pompeii... He's a hypocrite. He was on the Sontaran ship in a position similar to Jack's, though not necessarily Martha's, ready and willing to to the same thing. It's ok when he does it, but not when anyone else does it? Hypocrite. What's braver: being willing to sacrifice yourself without the help of a time sense, or being willing to sacrifice yourself WITH a good sense of how time will turn out because of it?
"The man who abhors violence [...] but this is the truth: you take ordinary people and fashion them into weapons. [...] How many have died in your name? The Doctor, the man who keeps on running, never looking back because he dare not, out of shame. This is my final victory, Doctor. I have shown you yourself."
>Davros and Sarah Jane. :D I wanted to see that interaction.
>Davros is the type of villain I prefer. Not the schizo Master type or the emotionless Daleks/Cybermen. Here was a cold, calculating and genuinely evil individual, out to inflict both physical and mental trauma on his most hated enemy.
>The three-fold man. Interesting. The Doctor/The 1/2 human Doctor/the 1/2 Doctor human.
>The Earth getting towed at warp. Let's see an Enterprise, any Enterprise do that!
>Doctor Half Human and Rose. Perhaps it was too shippy, but I didn't care. I smiled seeing her kiss the 1/2 Doctor. I hope they're all happy over there. And NEVER heard from again. Think of their children of time.;)
>"I named him Doctor." "Really?" "No, yuh plum. Tony." :D
>Caan. A Dalek became a Child of Time. Wow. That Doctor's either very persuasive or the Daleks're mighty evil. My money's on both.
>Everyone helping to fly the TARDIS. That was very touching, though it just made me feel even worse for the 'death' that was to come.
>The episode would have been perfect if Davros HAD accepted the Doctor's offer and gotten in the TARDIS. Honestly, I'd love to see what the Doctor would actually DO with an evil villain who accepted his help.
>The Torchwood time lock. I'm a bit ambivalent about this. On one hand, it's a great safety measure and the Doctor was able to easily use the Rift and the whole time war is time locked, but I doubt even Tosh could effectively control it enough to create a stable time bubble. Jack, sure, but Tosh? Or, rather, humans? It seems to go against everything we know about the unstable nature of the Cardrift. If the Doctor took away Jack's teleporter, isnt a time lock a bit more dangerous?
>Mickey joining Torchwood. Interesting. Hopefully, he'll be more than the black thug guy with the guns.:( It was nice to show that he's matured and moved on from Rose. It's sad that he has nothing left in either world. I've never really liked him before, but I'm hoping his obviously forthcoming alien romp in Torchwood isn't too painful.:P
>"Who invented that?! Well, someone named Osterhagen obviously, but... WHY?!" :P The concept of a doomsday device and the reasons for its creation were nice. I don't watch Sarah Jane's adventures:P, but the warp star was interesting.
>I knew the Osterhagen key had something to do with an appliance that made icecream, just not a series of devices making the world into icecream.:D
>I think Ianto has a crush on the Doctor.:P
>Donna pushing Sarah Jane out of the way to hug Jack. :D
>Finally! The Doctor's healed after his experiences in the time war. He's still alone, but hopefully he won't be lonely.
>Donna. Her entire time with the Doctor has been temporary. Whether it was as the bride who became a Time Lady or the woman with something on her back or the wife and mother, none of it happened... because she's a temp from Chiswick. Seeing her at the very end of her existence as a Time Lady was painful, seeing her at the end of the episode as her old self was... loud. She's the person she was at the beginning of her xmas special, but she has the capacity to become someone better. Not that she was really that bad a person, but she just wasn't... finished yet. Even without the Doctor, we saw what she was capable of in 'Turn Left'. It's also sad she'll never meet her dream man from the Library.
Forget Romana, Donna's my favourite Time Lady, half or otherwise. Rest in peace, Doctor Donna.

The Bad:
>AGAIN the Doctor mucks up Jack's teleporter! WHY?! Without a set of circumstances that had nothing to do with the Doctor, Jack got it working again, and that's the only reason he was able to show up and destroy the Dalek that shot the Doctor. It's dumb.
>So, the Doctor is the destroyer/shatterer of worlds? That's his true name? Geez. We already knew that. I was hoping for something a bit more insightful and profound.
>What exactly would the Doctor have done to stop the Daleks? Leave them spinning for eternity in the Medusa Cascade? Lock them in that same time rift or the time phase pocket they created? And he's angry at the 1/2 Doctor for doing what was obviously necessary? I'd love to see the time war and see how the Doctor 'fought' Daleks? I bet he offered to help them as a ruse to give the Rani time to blow them away...
>The Doctor's reaction to the Osterhagen Key...He destroyed his homeworld and race to stop the Daleks. What's so different about Martha et al doing it? Even better: if it came down to destroying Earth to stop a threat against ALL CREATION!!!!, wouldn't he do it? Oh, he'd stretch it out and make faces, but he'd push the button, blow us up, and TARDIS off all lonely and depressed and emo.
>I really wanted to hear...
Doctor: "Who died?"
Rose: "Harriet Jones. The former Prime Minister."
Doctor: "Yes, I know who she is... was."
It would have killed the serious tone, but it would have been hilaRious!
>"We have... an arrangement.":P When I hear the word 'vault', I think of somewhere that keeps valuables safe, not a dungeon. And why would a dungeon have a device able to control every facet of the crucible as well as the Daleks themselves?
>The Cybermen? The Cybermen?! I'm waiting 6 months for the Cybermen?!?!?!?! The rest of the plot had better be golden, cause the Cybermen are seriously rusting for me.

The Verdict:
The Doctor's a blooming hypocrite sometimes, but he comes through in the end. Donna's situation broke my heart. I was thoroughly satisfied by this episode. I hope the specials and Moffat's run live up to the heights of these last four episodes.

9.5/10
[.5 deducted for the Cyberxmas trailer garbage.]Can that even be considered a part of the episode? ;)

nx01a
July 18th, 2008, 04:42 PM
Was that a comment on the length of my post? :P

Col.Foley
July 18th, 2008, 05:58 PM
Was that a comment on the length of my post? :P
The last bit about taking off a half point based on the cybermen.

nx01a
July 18th, 2008, 07:00 PM
Ok. Gotcha. ;)
Sorry, but the trailer did detract. :P I would have given the episode a 9.5 regardless. Nothing's perfect, after all.

As for Donna as the most faithful companion... She DIED for him! TWICE! 'Turn Left' and in the finale. I know, I know. Rose and Martha would have, too, given the chance. Maybe.

Col.Foley
July 18th, 2008, 07:03 PM
Ok. Gotcha. ;)
Sorry, but the trailer did detract. :P I would have given the episode a 9.5 regardless. Nothing's perfect, after all.

As for Donna as the most faithful companion... She DIED for him! TWICE! 'Turn Left' and in the finale. I know, I know. Rose and Martha would have, too, given the chance. Maybe.Rose perhaps....but Martha.....I think at the moment she has bigger fish to fry, and bigger things to die for. *coughcoughJackcoughcough* Did I say that out loud?

nx01a
July 19th, 2008, 09:15 AM
Potential Mickey and Martha ship? *Shudder*
Well, if you can't have one companion, might as well have another.:D

And to clarify my 'died twice for him' comment... Donna's second 'death' wasn't so much to save him or help along the main plot, but, had she died because of having his intellect in her head, the Doctor would never have forgiven himself and he'd STILL be running around all angry. Instead, he's obviously hurt by it, but she's still alive and he's gotten some closure.

She died again to save him from... *gasp* MORE guilt!

Coco Pops
July 21st, 2008, 12:14 AM
I just want to say that I think making Donna forget everything was IMHO unforgivable.

Alipeeps
July 21st, 2008, 01:03 AM
I just want to say that I think making Donna forget everything was IMHO unforgivable.

It was that or death. Which d'you think her mum and granddad would prefer?

Coco Pops
July 21st, 2008, 03:09 AM
It was that or death. Which d'you think her mum and granddad would prefer?


But why did it have to come to that or death I didn't get that. They've never done that to a companion before aside from Adric buying the farm as the ship crashes into prehistoric Earth

Alipeeps
July 21st, 2008, 03:40 AM
But why did it have to come to that or death I didn't get that. They've never done that to a companion before aside from Adric buying the farm as the ship crashes into prehistoric Earth

Because that's what they chose to do with the character. Because it was a deliberately sad and poignant end to the character. Because it keeps the Doctor angsty and alone. Because they've been building up to it all season with dark hints and forewarnings.

Coco Pops
July 21st, 2008, 03:41 AM
Because that's what they chose to do with the character. Because it was a deliberately sad and poignant end to the character. Because it keeps the Doctor angsty and alone. Because they've been building up to it all season with dark hints and forewarnings.


LOL doesn't mean we have to like it

Sealurk
July 21st, 2008, 03:48 AM
LOL doesn't mean we have to like it

Damn right! Normally I like dark, deep endings, but this was the first time I really wanted a last minute, deus ex machina, cosmic reset ending that goes well...for Donna, anyway. I'm not so bothered about the rest of 'em...

Because the companion functions as a kind of link to the audience, the human observer to the alien time lord, and Donna was the best companion yet (IMO), it felt particularly bad...I feel cheated. I can only hope Moffatt comes up with a clever way of restoring her in a few series time.

Alipeeps
July 21st, 2008, 03:55 AM
LOL doesn't mean we have to like it

No. But that also doesn't mean they shouldn't have done it. :) If anything, your reaction just goes to show how effective that choice was - that people have strong emotions over what happened... We were meant to feel sad and awful and horrified at what happened to Donna.

Madeleine
July 21st, 2008, 05:20 AM
In some ways it's an ideal 'family' ending. For the grown-ups, there's a very sad, dark ending that makes us think about stuff like the nature of personality and its dependance on memory, or like the ethics of 'killing' a person to save their life. For the young children, there's no one really hurt and no one has died in the traditional sense, and the important thing is that within minutes there's a trailer for the Christmas special. They're not going to mind as long as the Doctor himself returns.

Mr Prophet
July 21st, 2008, 10:04 AM
But why did it have to come to that or death I didn't get that. They've never done that to a companion before aside from Adric buying the farm as the ship crashes into prehistoric Earth

Or Katarina blasting herself out of the airlock. Or Jamie and Zoe having all knowledge of the Doctor and their travels together erased from their minds.

nx01a
July 21st, 2008, 03:00 PM
I don't have a problem with Donna losing her memories of being both a Doctor and a companion. I'm incredibly sad about it, watching that was heart-wrenching, but it had to happen and it really was the only possible outcome. I'd rather have a crass and loud Donna Noble with the potential to become so much more [hi, Aeryn Sun] than a very dead Doctor Donna.

I hope we don't see her again. Much like Rose, she's the one who got away, the one who the Doctor could have been happy with [maybe] but the one he can never get. It was due to reality before, now it's life and death for Donna. I'm sure the Doctor'll stop in and be sure she's ok from time to time, much like Jack did with Rose in the past, without affecting anything to her knowledge. The Doctor could be her guardian angel. Don't blink!!

Coco Pops
July 21st, 2008, 06:38 PM
Or Katarina blasting herself out of the airlock. Or Jamie and Zoe having all knowledge of the Doctor and their travels together erased from their minds.


I don't remember Katarina..... Never saw the episodes that were that far back...

But is it the same time period that assistant who wore the skintight catsuit thing.

Gabriel_Lecter
July 21st, 2008, 07:58 PM
I can't believe the lack of Davros posts?

Mamid
July 21st, 2008, 10:42 PM
What if Donna ends up temping for Torchwood? Martha, Jack, Mickey, Owen and Gwen were never told not to talk to her. Nor was Sarah Jane.

What if her memories did come back.

What then?

Coco Pops
July 21st, 2008, 11:11 PM
What if Donna ends up temping for Torchwood? Martha, Jack, Mickey, Owen and Gwen were never told not to talk to her. Nor was Sarah Jane.

What if her memories did come back.

What then?


Wasn't the rule that if they did come back she'd cark it?

Mamid
July 22nd, 2008, 12:29 AM
They weren't told. Her mother and grandfather were told, but not them.

Alipeeps
July 22nd, 2008, 12:52 AM
What if Donna ends up temping for Torchwood? Martha, Jack, Mickey, Owen and Gwen were never told not to talk to her. Nor was Sarah Jane.

What if her memories did come back.

What then?

If she remembers, even for a second, she dies. That's it.

We have to assume that the Doctor would tell Martha and Torchwood and co what had happened and not to talk to Donna (not that she would know who they were anyway).

Mr Prophet
July 22nd, 2008, 08:57 AM
I don't remember Katarina..... Never saw the episodes that were that far back...

But is it the same time period that assistant who wore the skintight catsuit thing.

Katarina was a Trojan handmaiden who believed that her death had been prophesied. She was only a companion for about two episodes, but her death was nonetheless shocking, especially followed by the demise of her immediate replacement, Sara Kingdom, by the end of the same (epic) serial, The Daleks' Master Plan.

nx01a
July 22nd, 2008, 12:10 PM
I can't believe the lack of Davros posts?Davros was nicely updated and well acted.

Dang Daleks! Always killing people!

Sealurk
July 22nd, 2008, 12:33 PM
Davros was nicely updated and well acted.

Probably too well acted, and too popular, for him to stay dead, I'd imagine - in the age old tradition of supervillains, "we haven't seen the last of him".

And yeah, I thought Julian Bleach did an excellent job of bringing him to life. I only have vague memories of Davros from the old series, but something tells me that this incarnation will be perceived as the best by a great number of Who fans.

Mamid
July 22nd, 2008, 12:56 PM
i saw the original davros. this actor has sent chills up and down my spine. he is sooo accurate and amazingly davros that I wanted to hide.

Coco Pops
July 22nd, 2008, 02:53 PM
Katarina was a Trojan handmaiden who believed that her death had been prophesied. She was only a companion for about two episodes, but her death was nonetheless shocking, especially followed by the demise of her immediate replacement, Sara Kingdom, by the end of the same (epic) serial, The Daleks' Master Plan.



Ta thanks sounds interesting.

And who wa the one that wore the skintight catsuit with sparkly things all over it?

Sealurk
July 22nd, 2008, 03:05 PM
Ta thanks sounds interesting.

And who wa the one that wore the skintight catsuit with sparkly things all over it?

Would this be her?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoe_Heriot

Coco Pops
July 22nd, 2008, 07:43 PM
Would this be her?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoe_Heriot


Yes it was Zoe...... She kept the ratings up with male viewers when the show was brand new.

Mr Prophet
July 22nd, 2008, 10:19 PM
Yes it was Zoe...... She kept the ratings up with male viewers when the show was brand new.

See, I had no idea who you were talking about with the skintight catsuit, until you mentioned teh sparkly, probably because I had an Emma Peel moment.

Coco Pops
July 22nd, 2008, 11:02 PM
See, I had no idea who you were talking about with the skintight catsuit, until you mentioned teh sparkly, probably because I had an Emma Peel moment.


Ah, Emma Peel. Another good one from the 60s

JRDTECH
July 23rd, 2008, 12:36 AM
I just watch the episode (couldn't for sci-fi any longer lol),Loved the episode. kinda bittersweet with Rose and the Doctor though, poor Doctor 1.

One thing though, I think Doctor one committed a much more serious offense then Doctor 2's genocide (although in the same position I would of destroyed the Daleks too...them or us...I pick them) Anyways the Doctor 1 crime was taking Donna's memories, our memories and experiences are who we are for the Doctor to take that away from Donna was just wrong. I highly doubt that its what Donna wanted, I'd rather die with my memories intact. I really hope we haven't heard the last of Donna and the Doctor finds a way to restore her memories without killing her.

Reefgirl
July 23rd, 2008, 03:42 AM
Yes it was Zoe...... She kept the ratings up with male viewers when the show was brand new.
While the female viewers enjoyed Fraiser Hines in a kilt

wwlh
July 23rd, 2008, 05:47 AM
I really, *really* want to see this in future eps. I know it's probably an expense issue as it involves building new sets but in four years of new Who we've NEVER seen anything more of the TARDIS than the control room and a brief glimpse of a wardrobe room. I vaguely recall in the classic series seeing lots of different rooms in the TARDIS and I want to see this explored more in new Who.

I agree! Heck - in the classic series there's even a swimming pool in there!!

wwlh
July 23rd, 2008, 06:07 AM
Going to miss Donna..she was truly what the Doctor needed..a friend. The emotion in her eyes and voice when she says "why don't you ask her yourself" as she sees Rose standing behind him...

While I can agree that the "Eternal Death for the Doctor's most faithful Companion" could be mean Donna...I'm still half convinced that it might have refered to Rose..as she's now permanently exiled to the alternate universe. And they did refer to her being there as "this is the story of how I died"...

Daleks speaking German...too funny!

Donna's Grandfather...telling the Doctor that he'll keep and eye out for him..."for Donna" - FANTASTIC!

Please someone...let me know if I'm crazy...but I believe that in the classic series it was made known that the Doctor's Mother is human...from Earth and that is why he is so fixated on the planet. It could be something I read in the books...but it was so long ago...

Also - if that's true..I wish they could explore the Doctor meeting some of his "relatives" on his Mother's side...

OT for a second:

Anyone know if Torchwood is coming back for Season 3 and if the Sarah Jane Adventures was renewed for Season 2??

Alipeeps
July 23rd, 2008, 06:24 AM
Please someone...let me know if I'm crazy...but I believe that in the classic series it was made known that the Doctor's Mother is human...from Earth and that is why he is so fixated on the planet. It could be something I read in the books...but it was so long ago...

I'm by no means an expert but I think that was something mentioned in passing in the movie (8th Doctor)? I know it's something that has been much discussed and the canonicity of it debated.


OT for a second:

Anyone know if Torchwood is coming back for Season 3 and if the Sarah Jane Adventures was renewed for Season 2??

Yes to both - but Torchwood Season 3 will only have 5 episodes!

wwlh
July 23rd, 2008, 06:48 AM
Yes to both - but Torchwood Season 3 will only have 5 episodes!

Do you have any idea why? Are they just wrapping up a story line and then cancelling it?

I'd be crushed.... I think Torchwood has been brilliant (for the most part)

Alipeeps
July 23rd, 2008, 06:50 AM
Do you have any idea why? Are they just wrapping up a story line and then cancelling it?

I'd be crushed.... I think Torchwood has been brilliant (for the most part)

I don't know. I only know the number because there's a thread about it in the Doctor Who forum here... that would be the best place to look for further info. :)

Coco Pops
July 23rd, 2008, 07:06 PM
Why did the Timelords exile the Doctor to Earth for a period? What did he do to pee them off?

P-90_177
July 24th, 2008, 05:57 AM
Why did the Timelords exile the Doctor to Earth for a period? What did he do to pee them off?

Basically to answer for his crimes of stealing his TARDIS and traveling the universe which goes against the TimeLords laws of none interference with less advanced life forms. The Doctor manages to convince the Timelords though that there is evil to be fought in the universe and they decide that Earth pretty well draws trouble to it like a magnet. So they wipe all memory of how to control the TARDIS from the Doctors mind and send him there. Basically it's so that he can still watch over Earth but at the same time he can't make trouble else where in the universe.

Pitry
July 24th, 2008, 07:48 AM
Basically to answer for his crimes of stealing his TARDIS and traveling the universe which goes against the TimeLords laws of none interference with less advanced life forms. The Doctor manages to convince the Timelords though that there is evil to be fought in the universe and they decide that Earth pretty well draws trouble to it like a magnet. So they wipe all memory of how to control the TARDIS from the Doctors mind and send him there. Basically it's so that he can still watch over Earth but at the same time he can't make trouble else where in the universe.

... Unless, of course, there's some sort of urgent emergency that requires immediate Time Lord intervention and they're too hypcrite to do it themselves :)

Coco Pops
July 24th, 2008, 08:02 AM
... Unless, of course, there's some sort of urgent emergency that requires immediate Time Lord intervention and they're too hypcrite to do it themselves :)


You mean like in Genesis Of The Daleks....... "We can't do this but we'll send you instead"




"runs off"

Mr Prophet
July 24th, 2008, 08:32 AM
I don't know about hypocritical. Certainly the Doctor was used as a deniable agent though.

"What? Attempted genocide against the Dalek? That was the Doctor; he just does this stuff."

GateTrek2004
July 24th, 2008, 09:02 PM
No, It's clone Doctor, not 11th Doctor ( half-human and half Time Lord); he had all of original Doctor's memories, just one heart and one life. He can't regenerate himself but can age to be with Rose until natures of their deaths. The original Doctor punished clone Doctor to stay in paralled world with Rose and her family for exterminating Dalek race as Original was shocked. Doctor asks Rose to help clone Doctor to be better person like she did with 9th Doctor. Now TARDIS' gone, as Rose started a new life with her human Doctor. I believe that they will get married and have children soon.



I think whats hes meaning is that at the END of The Stolen Earth, The Doctor Started to Regenerate...To be contunied, Then at the Start of Journey's End, he focused his regenerative power to his hand so he used his old hand template to still be the same doctor just re-regenerate. Im my eyes, The Current Doctor- and not the one in the Parallel world with Rose!, would now be the 11th Doctor, but many might not see it that way. ABout half way thru Journey's Earth, Thats when the Clone Doctor came into existance

delsin2
July 24th, 2008, 10:12 PM
I enjoyed that episodes a lot. but felt bad for Doctor who lost everybody.

Sealurk
July 25th, 2008, 07:58 AM
Im my eyes, The Current Doctor- and not the one in the Parallel world with Rose!, would now be the 11th Doctor, but many might not see it that way. ABout half way thru Journey's Earth, Thats when the Clone Doctor came into existance

I think this is more one of those things where it's just up to each individual fan as to whether he's 10 or 11 now. My personal preference is to keep calling him the 10th Doctor, because he didn't change, he just used up a regeneration 'slot' to heal himself and make Doctor Two.

I'm betting that with those Time Lords for whom regeneration is traumatic (more on this in a minute), it's something to be avoided at the best of times - and the 10th Doctor knew that with the TARDIS surrounded by Daleks, about to be destroyed or taken prisoner, etc, it was not the best of times to be dealing with a new personality, a new face (new teeth) and the standard post-regeneration stress, so he willingly used up one of his few remaining regenerations to heal himself, without the added fuss.

As a consequence, I think he is still 10, because he is in appearance, personality and biology, he just has one less regeneration available to him. That regeneration was instead used to make the clone, even if somewhat imperfectly. He would only be the 11th Doctor if he changed in some way, because he would be distinct from the prior incarnation.

Would I be right in saying that some Time Lords (in the classic series) seem to have effortless regenerations, its almost a casual act they perform to overcome boredom, and some Time Lords (like the Doctor, and apparently the Master) suffer very traumatic, painful regenerations that leave them disoriented and unstable for some time afterwards? If I'm wrong, please correct me!

Coco Pops
July 25th, 2008, 08:14 AM
I think this is more one of those things where it's just up to each individual fan as to whether he's 10 or 11 now. My personal preference is to keep calling him the 10th Doctor, because he didn't change, he just used up a regeneration 'slot' to heal himself and make Doctor Two.

I'm betting that with those Time Lords for whom regeneration is traumatic (more on this in a minute), it's something to be avoided at the best of times - and the 10th Doctor knew that with the TARDIS surrounded by Daleks, about to be destroyed or taken prisoner, etc, it was not the best of times to be dealing with a new personality, a new face (new teeth) and the standard post-regeneration stress, so he willingly used up one of his few remaining regenerations to heal himself, without the added fuss.

As a consequence, I think he is still 10, because he is in appearance, personality and biology, he just has one less regeneration available to him. That regeneration was instead used to make the clone, even if somewhat imperfectly. He would only be the 11th Doctor if he changed in some way, because he would be distinct from the prior incarnation.

Would I be right in saying that some Time Lords (in the classic series) seem to have effortless regenerations, its almost a casual act they perform to overcome boredom, and some Time Lords (like the Doctor, and apparently the Master) suffer very traumatic, painful regenerations that leave them disoriented and unstable for some time afterwards? If I'm wrong, please correct me!



Welll didn't Romana go through 3 or 4 changes before she settled on one that she liked. I distinctly remember that she settled on the form of Princess Astra..... And didn't seem to have any discomfort or such.

Madeleine
July 25th, 2008, 11:21 AM
That's a good way to look at it, cocopops, we all seem to call Lalla Ward "Romana mk II" rather than "Romana mk [2+however many practice attempts she made]".

nx01a
July 25th, 2008, 12:06 PM
I thought Romana just went through possibilities in her head before deciding on an actual form to take?

Mr Prophet
July 25th, 2008, 01:48 PM
I thought Romana just went through possibilities in her head before deciding on an actual form to take?

She tried them out for the Doctor to see, although I would presume that it would have counted as a single regeneration 'incident'; like the Doctor losing his hand and regrowing it as part as a single regeneration cycle.

Xicer
August 1st, 2008, 09:42 PM
Time Ladies such as Romana apparently regenerate differently from Time Lords. Romana wasn't going through different regenerations when she was picking out the bodies, she was just showing the Doctor the different possibilities, that scene was part of her regenerative process. Time Ladies can choose which form they want to regenerate into whereas Time Lords cannot.

Anyway, I loved the episode, I've been waiting for it for a long time. I still need some time to gather my thoughts (I had to watch the late showing since I didn't know this was a 65min ep).

Pitry
August 2nd, 2008, 06:57 AM
Time Ladies such as Romana apparently regenerate differently from Time Lords. Romana wasn't going through different regenerations when she was picking out the bodies, she was just showing the Doctor the different possibilities, that scene was part of her regenerative process. Time Ladies can choose which form they want to regenerate into whereas Time Lords cannot.

Anyway, I loved the episode, I've been waiting for it for a long time. I still need some time to gather my thoughts (I had to watch the late showing since I didn't know this was a 65min ep).

Or, the Doctor just isn't very good at regenerating and never cared to learn how to do it better. He did only pass his Time Lord Acadamy exams the second time round, and even then just barely :)

When I watched Romana's regeneration I assumed the Doctor could have done something like that had he bothered paying more attention.
A bit like regrowing his hand on The Christmas Invasion.

MasySyma
August 2nd, 2008, 07:42 AM
An amazing finale!!! Yeah! Such a turn around from last week!! I loved this episode, and series 4 has been my favorite. The wait for new Who is going to be so hard as is the wait until November for the DVDs.

The Good
The companions: This week they were used well. Everyone served a purpose. I liked the use Sarah Jane in particular, and I realized that I missed Mickey. I liked the hints that he may appear later on in Who or other spinoffs. I wouldn't mind seeing more of him. I enjoyed how the episode showed that each companion has a full life now outside of the Doctor. They travel with him at times, but they have reasons to come home and someone to tell their stories too. I also liked the scene with them driving the Tardis and towing Earth. It helped explain why he can't drive the rest of the time (unless he chooses to).

Donna: CT was amazing, and I loved Donna all series, but I appreciated her here. I laughed so hard at her channeling her Doctor, and the end is perfect, hopeful and sad. I've always liked Donna, so while I didn't want to see her mind wiped, I see her being as strong once she acquires more confidence in her "real" life. I also appreciate that the Doctor couldn't kill her. He cared for his friend, and he also thought of the other people she would leave behind. A wounded Donna is better than no Donna.

The Doctors: When I saw rumors of at least two Doctors, I was worried. I remembered Ripple Effect from SG-1, when the Sams descend into technobabble agony. This didn't happen. In fact, I appreciated the subtlety of each Doctor coming to the same conclusions rather than all bouncing off the walls trying to out talk each other. I also felt so bad for our Doctor. He had a bad day. Yes, Earth was safe, but he was alone with his memories, and many of them weren't pleasant.

The AU Resolution:
Ok. Rose got what she wanted, a Doctor; I didn't mind the solution, but I do want that universe sealed up for good now. I want more series without Doctor/companion ship please.

The Ending:
Yes! Finally, a contemplative Doctor. I despised the What? What? What? at the end of Series 2 and 3. I wanted to see the Doctor's emotions and see him move on in the next episode. Finally we get a proper ending showing that the show is about the Doctor first, then the companions.

The Not So Amazing
Jackie: I like Jackie, but she had no business being in this episode. She isn't a member of Torchwood, and she can't handle Rose being in danger. If this is true, she has huge problems. Rose works for Torchwood in the AU, and if their Torchwood is like our Torchwood, the members risk their lives often and tend to die young. Their Torchwood may change due to having a Doctor now, but we should have heard of but not seen Jackie. If we needed to see Rose's family, we should have seen Pete as he funds Torchwood and is possibly in charge. All Jackie did was nearly get killed. I did like the Tony/Doctor joke though. I also could have accepted Jackie if she hadn't used the Rose in danger card and had said she just wanted to help the Doctor given he gave her Pete, Tony, and Rose.

I stayed up late to see this episode again, and it was worth it. A 12/10, and I suspect it may become my favorite.

nx01a
August 2nd, 2008, 04:45 PM
As much as I enjoyed the finale, I wonder what implications these events will have for Torchwood. The Doctor was able to skillfully manipulate the rift, wouldn't it have made sense for Jack to ask him for help with all the weirdness that usually comes through it? People's lives are destroyed every episode by it so asking the Doctor for help seems like the most logical thing. On the other hand, at the end of s3, Jack should and could have asked the same thing. That's just annoying me, that and the Doctor neutralizing Jack's teleport. It's not like he's a 21st C human with that capability. He's adept at using it, it's his native tech. Downright dumb to take away such an advantage from a supposed ally in the fight against evil. Then again, it's all about plot...