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**Skydiver** · 04 November 2004, 02:46 AM

And that's a relatively cheap con

I wonder if anyone will put together that one contributing reason for 'dwindling' attendance (although i do think the internet does have some thing to do with it) is that they're being priced out of existence??

What started as a fan run 'let's get together' is now becoming a corporation run 'let's make as much money as we can off these gullible folks'

I mean heck, when it costs folks up to 300 dollars just to walk in the door, who can afford to go to many or even more than one in a year?????

Unless folks have really good jobs or like to rack up thier credit cards, people have less and less disposible income each year.

**prion** · 04 November 2004, 03:46 AM

Originally posted by Skydiver

And that's a relatively cheap con

I wonder if anyone will put together that one contributing reason for 'dwindling' attendance (although i do think the internet does have some thing to do with it) is that they're being priced out of existence??

What started as a fan run 'let's get together' is now becoming a corporation run 'let's make as much money as we can off these gullible folks'

I mean heck, when it costs folks up to 300 dollars just to walk in the door, who can afford to go to many or even more than one in a year?????

Unless folks have really good jobs or like to rack up thier credit cards, people have less and less disposible income each year.

Yes, that's a very big point. Creation's lifeblood exists because of fans who will pay ANYTHING to see their idol. I'm sorry to be blunt, but that's the way it is. It's those fans who brought about the stupid paying outrageous fees to get a front row seat becuase fans were too lazy to just sit through panels till their panel came. Creation ala cartes everything, at high prices.

It's the cost that keeps most fans away, but they're right in that many fans are only interested in seeing their favorite actors and paying an arm and a leg for an autograph that once was free.

Of course some fans are 'loaded for bear', so to speak, so cost is no issue, but most have to save.

**Madeleine** · 04 November 2004, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by Skydiver

I mean heck, when it costs folks up to 300 dollars just to walk in the door, who can afford to go to many or even more than one in a year?????

Too right. I just went to a Starfury-run Angel/Firefly con in London and it was great value at £65 for three days including an autograph with each guest - and the guests were good, really good. There were nearly 700 people there. Meanwhile down the road another Angel con with 'bigger' guests was charging £300 for three days and if you wanted the guests to sign something for you it was an extra £25 each item, no chatting. Rip off.

The Starfury organiser had been asked about getting certain guests to a con, and basically said No Way. He can't compete with the events that charge £300 per person, or with the Memorabillia-style thingies where the guests simply sit for eight hours signing an autograph every twenty seconds at £15 - £25 a pop.

I wouldn't know about declining attendances, cos this was my first proper con. What I do know is that most of the people at the con seemed to be Starfury regulars. I think if you experience a really good, friendly, efficient and fun con, you'll go back for more. (I certainly will once I've stopped being skint.) And I only discovered the existence of Cons in the first place *because* of the internet. There are so many in the UK though that even if the market collapses by 50% there'd still be several different SF & Fantasy events each month.

**prion** · 04 November 2004, 04:11 PM

One thing I have discovered while on the internet, and this happened about 8 years ago, is that some internet fans - who are new to fandom - actually looked DOWN on fans who did fanzines and attended conventions that, god forbid, did not have actors. No joke. It was just a handful of fans, but they definitely tainted that fandom's list when they made that judgement call.

**Skydiver** · 04 November 2004, 04:43 PM

I found my first con via the internet. and i went to gatecon the first time after Lems went and said 'you HAVE got to come'

This one is, yes, more expensive. it's roughly 200 dollars for thu - sunday....but, with the exception of the pictures, includes everything. autos, cocktail party, whatever the heck they decide to do on friday night, celebrity auction, all the talks....everything.

And i don't mind paying a bit since all the proceeds go to charity.

That's why i will not do a 'professional' con. I will spend money that helps a charity, but i will not help to line executive's pockets. They want to add more to thier 7 figure incomes, they can use someone else's money

**terraatlantus** · 04 November 2004, 05:18 PM

RAM is cheaper. and who wants the illusions they create thru the characters they portray to be spoiled by meeting the real them? they can have alien babies, sordid affairs, profligate lifestyles, and prima donna attitudes for all I care as long as the science fiction they create continues to be enjoyable and inspiring.

**greytop** · 04 November 2004, 06:48 PM

I have been to one in long time but the reason I do not go is money . I usually cain't get off work to go to one out of town.

I would love to attend one.

**Skydiver** · 05 November 2004, 04:54 AM

Originally posted by greytop

I have been to one in long time but the reason I do not go is money . I usually cain't get off work to go to one out of town.

I would love to attend one.

I know the feeling graytop. and i don't know where in SC kansas you are but i do know that the closest convention is a good 500-1000 miles away (denver or Chicago)

It makes it harder to go when there's folks like us that can't just take the weekend, we have to take off travel days before or after just to get there and back....plus the cost of traveling be it driving or air fare, and all those hotel costs.

It's something that needs to be factored in when a person chooses to go to a con. Your average airline ticket is 200-400 round trip, depending on when and where, plus a hotel that's gonna be close to 100 a night (40 if there's a more generic hotel near by and you commute or if you find a roomie) plus food or gas if you drive it. and there's that little matter of food

Basically, in addition to the 300+ to get in the door with the 'good seats' so that you are guaranteed autos/pictures, etc. it's 500-1000 dollars for a person just to get to the con.

Those that live close, it's easier for them. They can stay at home and drive in each day, but for those that aren't in a con city, the cost can be so prohibitive as to make going to a con a once a year event.

With this sudden influx and almost flooding of the market in cons, it stands to reason that there will be less people going simply because, if there are now 10 cons per year and folks can only afford one, then those other 9 they won't go to.

Instead of every one flocking to one of three main cons, which used to be gatecon, sg whatever and BOBW in australia, now there are, what? a dozen or two scifi cons to go to??? (i know there are tons more general scifi, but there have to be about a dozen stargate ones)

I'm reminded of the comic book business in the 90's. Marvel and DC discovered that there was a huge market out there for comics, so they started to print and print and crank out title after title, multiple covers, variant editions, etc. etc, etc.

they flooded the market with books that, due to teh sheer volume, soon became sub standard and distinctly lacking in quality.

they could ride that floor for a couple of years, but folks got tired of cookie cutter books and the bottom fell out. people got tired of teh rising costs, shoddy stories and art and stopped buying.

**Tok'Ra Hostess** · 05 November 2004, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by prion

One thing I have discovered while on the internet, and this happened about 8 years ago, is that some internet fans - who are new to fandom - actually looked DOWN on fans who did fanzines and attended conventions that, god forbid, did not have actors. No joke. It was just a handful of fans, but they definitely tainted that fandom's list when they made that judgement call.

I've never been/never will go to a con. Money, time and distance are all factors, but, I just don't see the attraction of paying good money to possibly spend a few minutes with the actors.

Via the net I already know all their (pat) answers to all the (same-old) questions. I've seen all the variations on the "Puff&Ruffle" that I can stand and I'll take it on faith that Amanda is amazing and that Daniel is wonderful and
that Don Davis is the sweetest, etc.

I'd much rather go to a con that featured the steak that makes the actors sizzle; I'd love to meet and interview the writers, set designers, producers, and to meet the fans who drive the fandom - the fic writers, the fanzine editors, the site admins, like Darren and David - people who aren't acting at anything - the real deal.

**Skydiver** · 05 November 2004, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by Tok'Ra Hostess

I'd much rather go to a con that featured the steak that makes the actors sizzle; I'd love to meet and interview the writers, set designers, producers, and to meet the fans who drive the fandom - the fic writers, the fanzine editors, the site admins, like Darren and David - people who aren't acting at anything - the real deal.

that's another reason i like gatecon. it's not just the 'stars' that show up. The dude that draws the concept art for atlantis drops by, jan newman shows up and chats with folks, grip #3 is there, etc, etc, etc.

at gatecon, anyone can show up and hang out and if an attendee is paying attention, they can meet the most amazing folks.

I've often hear the writers answer, when asked, how come you don't come to con X'....'well, we're not invited. no one wants to see us'

**Rowan Green** · 11 February 2005, 04:46 AM

Firstly, I don't agree that it's the internet that's killed cons. Like many other people here, I only started going to cons when I heard about them on the net.

I do think it's money that's killed cons. But I don't think it's just the fault of commercial companies like Creation, though they've had their part in the trend. I think you've also got to put some of the blame on the actors themselves. Many actors (and/or their agents) are asking higher and higher fees. I know there's some cons will not get certain actors because their fees have gone up. And I know some cons that apparently have been willing to pay those fees (and not just for-profit commercial cons either) and that has been passed onto the fans as a result.

Have the kind of fans there are changed? I'm not so sure. I think it depends on what they've heard of, and had the chance to go to. I know of a few fans only go to one particular signing fair type show. They go on about how much cheaper their show is all the time, because it's free entry. How ever many times you tell them that it's cheap because you pay through the nose for individual autographs and any talks, they don't get it. They don't get that at a traditional con you'll get your talks and autos included in the entry so it generaly ends up a lot cheaper, and you get stuff included that you don't get at a signing show.

I'm not sure that the new fans don't WANT something different, they just don't realise what they are missing.

**GateGipsy** · 11 February 2005, 07:00 AM

The big draw of the cons for me is the people who go. I get to spend some time with some wonderful people, and I have a blast. Many a guest has utterly surprised me too. Neil Dennis, the young lad who played Ryac, was exceptional on stage, and I enjoyed every second of his panel. Garwin Standford and Cliff Simon are two other huge surprises - I'd happily listen to them again. They're both incredibly multi talented people who have a lot to say and more importantly, that is worth listening to.

But I have to admit that if I didn't live in London and had to travel a fair distance to cons, I definitely wouldn't go to so many. I'd love to go to BoBW and GateCon though. Those are on my wish list!

**prion** · 11 February 2005, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by Rowan Green

I do think it's money that's killed cons. But I don't think it's just the fault of commercial companies like Creation, though they've had their part in the trend. I think you've also got to put some of the blame on the actors themselves. Many actors (and/or their agents) are asking higher and higher fees. I know there's some cons will not get certain actors because their fees have gone up. And I know some cons that apparently have been willing to pay those fees (and not just for-profit commercial cons either) and that has been passed onto the fans as a result.

Money is definitely a way to kill a con. Some conventions are so expensive it's ridiculous.

I think fans have changed a bit over the decades. Ages ago, none of them would even dream of paying the astronomical prices cons ask for nowadays; nor did they feel they were entitled to having so much personal tlime with an actor. They went, had fun with each other, saw the actors, talk, etc.
The thing is that Creation isn't the real problem; It's the fans, the ones who are willing to pay anything to get next to their idol. It's the old supply and demand mess: as long as there are a core group of fans who don't care what they spend, Creaton and its ilk will continue to supply. Simple as that.

**Skydiver** · 11 February 2005, 08:09 AM

and it's those folks with either unlimited money or the willingness to max the credit cards perpetually that are making it tough on those of us who live within a budget

now, don't get me wrong, it's your money and you spend it how you want...BUT con companies charge 500 just to walk in the door because PEOPLE PAY IT.

supply and demand works the other way too. if the consumer spurns the con's advances, then the con will have to rearrange how they do things if they want to stay in business

there is also the fact that a few years ago, there weren't many cons, not for stargate anyway

gatecon, bobw, sg whatever...those were pretty much it.

so you could have, let's say, 5000 fans spread out amongst those 5 cons a year (the numbers may not be accurate, just going for example here)

but now we have 12 creation cons a year, gatecon, sg whatever and at least a couple more in the uk....now the fanbase has grown a bit, let's say it's doubled, but instead of 5000 fans going to 5 cons, you now have 10000 fans going to 15 cons

they're gonna keep getting smaller simply because the number of cons are growing faster than the fanbase...and in an effort to make more money, those same growing number of cons are getting more and more expensive....they are simply running themselves out of business

may take 5-10 years before they give up the ghost, but it will happen

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