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GateWorld
April 23rd, 2008, 10:09 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s4/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/409.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border:1px solid #000;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO SERIES 30</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s4/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">FOREST OF THE DEAD</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 3009</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
As shadow parasites pick off members of the expedition, the Doctor and his mysterious friend race to save more than 4,000 souls. Donna finds herself living a perfect life, only to be told that it is not real.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s4/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

pbellosom
June 7th, 2008, 01:05 PM
Hey, the threads open!!

Amazing episode, though not as good as part one, and probably Moffat's weakest episode (though still as I said earlier amazing).

It was obvious that CAL was the girl, though I did not see Lux's motivations coming.

The ending when the guy with the stutter leaves was so painful, not in the this is really bad way but in the "Oh no" kind of way.

Well I guess River is going to be a companion during Moffat's time then, or at least I think that's what was implied. Also her referencing of going to the end of the Universe, does Moffat have plans to revisit the Utopia arc? We still need to know what happened to the Toclafane now the paradox is broken.

Edit: First time ever getting first post on an episode discussion, I feel so chuffed

Admiral Mappalazarou
June 7th, 2008, 01:19 PM
I really liked this episode.

...

And that's all I have to say about that. :cameron:

Alipeeps
June 7th, 2008, 01:32 PM
Really good episode. Excellent conclusion to the first part that answered many questions - yet left even more unresolved!! Am terribly intruiged by the whole name thing and River knowing the Doctor's name... and the implication seeming to be that they are perhaps married in the future? (Interesting kind of marriage though where he just turns up from time to time or comes when she calls)

The name thing is very mysterious and intruiging - particularly the way the Doctor phrased it to River, something about there being only one circumstance in which he *could* tell her his name. Like he wouldn't otherwise be allowed to? Like his name is somehow forbidden or something? :confused:

Glad to see I was correct in my speculation from last week that saved meant literally that - saved into the computer/onto the hard drive. Though really, it wasn't too hard to work out last week that the little girl was CAL and CAL was the computer... lovely twist on how that was all explained though and why she was the computer. Another intruiging point there was the Doctor's comment that CAL got confused because she had 4,200 voices in her head all talking at once and it must have been like "being me". Verrrrry interesting. We know the Doctor has psychic abilities, we've seen him use them from time to time... but that would seem to indicate a wider psychic ability and one that is as much a difficulty as a useful thing... like he can't always block out everyone's thoughts? :confused: Hmmm...

Very poignant the resolution of River's story (River's song? Could this perhaps have been what the Ood referred to as the Doctor's song must end soon? ;)) - ahhh I do love my Doctor when he's angsty. :D

Much to love about this episode in general... really must go watch it again! :D

Davidtourniquet
June 7th, 2008, 02:14 PM
Very good episode, a credit to Moffatt as usual.
I think Dr Who will be in safe hands when he takes over.

huntress
June 7th, 2008, 02:53 PM
Okay...I still have no real clue who River Song was but by Jove this two parter ranks even higher then "Blink" in my books. That was just plain AMAZING! I am too tired now but I will write a proper review tomorrow. Suffice to say that my love for Stephen Moffat and his writing skills have grown a hundredfold.

Reefgirl
June 7th, 2008, 03:08 PM
Wonderful, I wonder if Donna and Stutter man will ever meet again and the group all back together in CAL and Moon's little world. Things certainly have been left open. It may have been the end of River's song but will we get to see the beginning, it seems to me that a whole new arc is opening up for Dr 11, 12 or 13, my guess is Dr 13, some how I think she was there at the end, it's the only reason he would have told her his name.

All in all a great story

ShadowMaat
June 7th, 2008, 03:54 PM
The name thing is very mysterious and intruiging - particularly the way the Doctor phrased it to River, something about there being only one circumstance in which he *could* tell her his name. Like he wouldn't otherwise be allowed to? Like his name is somehow forbidden or something? :confused:
I don't think it has to do with marriage, that seems a little too... simple, somehow. Too easy. I thought it might have to do with childbirth, but that's a bit much, especially coming on the heels of the whole Jenny thing.

Maybe it's a last regeneration thing. That could be kind of interesting. Might be worth someone starting a thread to theorize about it. Er... if there isn't one already. ;)


Another intruiging point there was the Doctor's comment that CAL got confused because she had 4,200 voices in her head all talking at once and it must have been like "being me". Verrrrry interesting. We know the Doctor has psychic abilities, we've seen him use them from time to time... but that would seem to indicate a wider psychic ability and one that is as much a difficulty as a useful thing... like he can't always block out everyone's thoughts? :confused: Hmmm...
I didn't take it quite so literally as that, I was thinking more that a piece of everyone he's met "lives on" in him, with a given value for "everyone." Could be just Companions and associates, could be all the other Time Lords, could be something else entirely.

Great ep. Still think Blink is tops, but this was darn good. I was kinda surprised that nothing was made of the whole "the library is made out of the Vashta Narada's forest" stuff as it seemed like another good opportunity for the Doctor to go off on a rant about humanity mucking about with things they don't understand and destroying whole cultures just to make life easier for them. Definitely would have taken away from the emotional impact of River's story, though, so I can understand why it wasn't pursued, but it seems like a point left open. Maybe we'll get back to it some day as we did with the Ood? Or maybe not. *shrug* I just felt like there was more to that angle than what we got.

Yay for the team being saved, even if they are basically ghosts in the machine. ;) I got the impression that the Doctor still came to visit her/them after the upload, would that be correct?

Also, the whole "when the wind blows in the right direction" thing reminded me of Mary Poppins. LOL! I wonder what the children are meant to be. I kept waiting for her to name them so we could have a spoiler hint of things to come. ;)

EDIT: Oooo, and yay on the "Everybody lives!" reference! :D

lirenel
June 7th, 2008, 04:05 PM
I liked it. I was sad that River ended up a ghost in the machine, but was happy she was at least with her friends and the children. I wish we had learned more about her relationship with the Doctor. Whatever it was definitely seemed like she was more than just a companion.

One this I missed or misheard or something: What happened to the Vashta Narada? I got the impression that the Doctor was sending them somewhere, but didn't really get where.

I actually guessed right about the girl being the computer and 'saving' the people. It might have been obvious, but I still usually don't figure out the obvious so yay!

I did like how River's voice over started, making it seem like it would end with the screwdriver on the book, and then the Doctor ran back and there was an entire new sequence. =D

Jonzey
June 7th, 2008, 04:17 PM
TBH I was disappointed. It was a good episode, it was just a little infuriating how they kept going on about spoilers and never actually revealed anything. The only thing we know now that we didn't know at the end of the last week is that she knows his name.

I think it's heavily implied that she's more than just a companion when they meet in the future, and by the sound of it, she won't be always travelling with him.

Thing is, it will probably be another 2 years before we find out.

ShadowMaat
June 7th, 2008, 04:46 PM
I had thought that the Vashta Narada were going to be "saved" into the computer instead, but unless they manifested as the three kids (HA!) I dunno. Or were the three kids Donna's "children" and CAL?

The Doctor didn't say anything about killing the shadows, just moving them somewhere they could graze forever.

I had another question about something but can't remember it now. Maybe someone will ask it for me. ;)

Alipeeps
June 7th, 2008, 05:01 PM
I don't think it has to do with marriage, that seems a little too... simple, somehow. Too easy. I thought it might have to do with childbirth, but that's a bit much, especially coming on the heels of the whole Jenny thing.

Ah well, I certainly got the "future wife" vibe from the whole thing and in the Doctor Who Confidential it was pretty clear that that was the vibe they were trying to give - that the Doctor has an "intimate" relationship with River in the future... and that she "might, possibly, maybe" be his wife in the future (I believe that's how someone (can't recall if it was RTD or Moffat (can we start to refer to him as SM now that we know he's going to be the "new RTD"? :lol:)) phrased it).


I had thought that the Vashta Narada were going to be "saved" into the computer instead, but unless they manifested as the three kids (HA!) I dunno. Or were the three kids Donna's "children" and CAL?

The Doctor didn't say anything about killing the shadows, just moving them somewhere they could graze forever.


My understanding was that he was leaving the Library to the Vashta Nerada. Get all the people out and let them "graze there" forever. There was no mention of moving them - he just got a day to get the people out.

ShadowMaat
June 7th, 2008, 05:55 PM
Ahhh, OK. Kind of a sad waste of a library, but OK. Better than getting devoured while trying to read Shakespeare or something. lol

And yes, there was a definite wifey vibe coming from River, but I don't buy marriage as the only time the Doctor could/would reveal his name. Then again, maybe sometimes the simplest answers ARE the right ones. ;)

Gate-builder
June 7th, 2008, 10:33 PM
Now THAT was what i call an awesome episode!

He told her his name! Not just 'The Doctor' but his actual proper name! I hope we hear more about this, specifically the reason why he told her.

Did anyone else find the veiled lady really creepy? before we found out that it was Evangalista.

And the Doctor can work the TARDIS doors by clicking! what the hell!

I hope we see more of River Song in later episodes. It was almost as if Moffat was setting himself up for when he takes over RTDs job.

Mr Prophet
June 8th, 2008, 02:04 AM
And yes, there was a definite wifey vibe coming from River, but I don't buy marriage as the only time the Doctor could/would reveal his name. Then again, maybe sometimes the simplest answers ARE the right ones. ;)

I still hope not wife, because I have problems with 'special' companions. If one of them is special then the others aren't; I don't like that idea.

Very, very impressed by this episode, although I did better than usual in calling the conclusion of the two-parter. Miss Evangelista's super-genius woman in black was fantastically creepy. I did wonder about her 'brilliant and unloved' line. Is this implying that the Doctor sees the truth, so he must be unloved, or that he is loved and therefore biased, I wonder?

LiliJ
June 8th, 2008, 03:00 AM
Oh wow! How great was that episode! :D

So who do you guys think River Song is?

pbellosom
June 8th, 2008, 03:00 AM
I did like how River's voice over started, making it seem like it would end with the screwdriver on the book, and then the Doctor ran back and there was an entire new sequence. =D

I really don't get how the memory thing got inside the screwdriver, where did the future Doctor get it? Because surely it would have been on river's suit until the end?

also, did he really leave a book containing detailed information on his future just lieing around for anyone to find it? That seems really really stupid of him given the amount of enemies he has.

LiliJ
June 8th, 2008, 03:04 AM
I don't think it has to do with marriage, that seems a little too... simple, somehow. Too easy. I thought it might have to do with childbirth, but that's a bit much, especially coming on the heels of the whole Jenny thing.

Maybe it's a last regeneration thing. That could be kind of interesting. Might be worth someone starting a thread to theorize about it. Er... if there isn't one already. ;)

From what he said about "there's only one time I could [tell you my name]" I got that they went to the time war... Maybe that's going to be the grand finale of the entire series? (Not this one, I mean the ending of ALL Dr Who series.)

LiliJ
June 8th, 2008, 03:06 AM
My understanding was that he was leaving the Library to the Vashta Nerada. Get all the people out and let them "graze there" forever. There was no mention of moving them - he just got a day to get the people out.

Yeesh that's creepy! And a bit out of character for the Doctor... I was a little confused as to what he did with the Shadows too. Hmph! I don't like being confused! :D

LiliJ
June 8th, 2008, 03:07 AM
I really don't get how the memory thing got inside the screwdriver, where did the future Doctor get it? Because surely it would have been on river's suit until the end?

also, did he really leave a book containing detailed information on his future just lieing around for anyone to find it? That seems really really stupid of him given the amount of enemies he has.

Sometime in the future he must have gone back in time to just before she died (or just after) and taken away the nureol relay thing to put in the screwdriver.

Mr Prophet
June 8th, 2008, 03:28 AM
I really don't get how the memory thing got inside the screwdriver, where did the future Doctor get it? Because surely it would have been on river's suit until the end?

also, did he really leave a book containing detailed information on his future just lieing around for anyone to find it? That seems really really stupid of him given the amount of enemies he has.

I presumed that was a different chip; a better one which, being linked to the screwdriver, held her entire mental print, rather than just a ghost, for a good long time. There were clearly plenty of the chips and it woudl be easy enough for the Doctor to get hold of one. He couldn't have gone back for the one in his suit, because he was already there.

The book is not just spoilers, it's also a hazard to the Web of Time. If he had the information, he couldn't use it for fear of the damage he might cause (as in Father's Day), so knowing it would be pure torture to him.

There was nothing he could do to move the Vashta Nerada - like he said, with the Vashta Nerada you just run - so he made a deal to stop the destruct sequence and save the planet; in exchange he had a day to take all of the people away, before the Vashta Nerada started feeding again. He'd already told Lux that when they left he needed to put a quarantine on the Library for ever and ever.

huntress
June 8th, 2008, 04:28 AM
I am so tired today but i slept well and enough. Dunno why but it is annoying :yawn: Need to more tea I think.

Anyway, I wanted to write down my thoughts on "Forest of the Dead" which I just loved, loved, loved. Stephen Moffat is simply a wonderful writer though he seems to have two tendencies:

1. Leave the doctor broken hearted (The Girl in the Fireplace , Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead)
2. Create fascinating and loveable new characters that make the short-list of future companions (Madame de Pompadour, Sally Sparrow, River Song)

I was happy to see that I was basically right with all my assumptions. The world of the girl was virtual and that saved literally meant saved to the main computer system. Maybe it was obvious but at least for me it was a satisfying "told ya!" moment. I was also sort of right with my assumption that the little girl must be the main program, the only thing I couldn't have guessed is that she is actually a little girl for real. That bit reminded me a bit of THE OTHER from "Otherworld" except that THE OTHER had lost all humanity and was not there out of his own free will.

The idea that the Vashta Nerada were actually created on that world and that they hatched from all the books was brilliant. It made the title even more fascinating. The huge library = the forest of dead trees, turned into pulp and then books.

I had hoped for a clear answer who River Song was but unfortunately we didn't get one. Just tantalizing bits and pieces. I don't think that River was married to the doctor and if she had been, then it was the weirdest marriage ever. The doctor turning up whenever he wants to or when she calls him but everything she said made me wonder. She knew his name. The name we even do not know and it seems to be very, very special. I wonder on what very special occasion that name is uttered. Maybe childbirth but that seems so far fetched. Can anybody think of an occasion when the doctor would give away his real name other then marriage and childbirth because I can't think of any. It certainly has nothing to do with sex I think, because I do believe that the doctor gets some, sometimes ;-) River was a wonderful character and IMHO whoever will be in charge of the doctor in the future is now forced to bring the storyline back though I doubt that Alex Kingston will play River again. I think it would be a wonderful storyline for the last doctor aka doctor number 13. Since we all love the doctor too much and the Beep has no interest in killing off a character that has been on air for fifty years I doubt, that the end will come any time soon. I think fanfic authors are called to action here to spin the story of the 13th doctor and River Song. I felt so sorry for Donna. The virtual reality life showed that, despite her constant assurances that she wants to travel with the doctor forever, all she truly craves is a normal life with kids and a loving husband. I do hope that Donna and her stuttering husband will find each other again. The scene with Donna and the doctor - both heartbroken was touching.

Donna: How are you, doctor?
Doctor: Me...alright. I'm alright.
Donna: Is that special timelord code for actually not being alright
[the doctor looks at Donna]
Donna [quietly] : ....because I am also alright

Neither of them is alright and in this library both have left behind more then just memories.

One more word about River. I think the main reason why she was such a fabulous character was because Alex Kingston made her one. She is a fabulous actress. She brought River alive in the same way that Carey Mulligan brought Sally Sparrow alive. Stephen Moffat was lucky that his wonderful strong creations were played by equally strong women (okay all except Madame de Pompadour who left no impression on me because I don't dig Sophia Myles)

I adored Alex Kingston's voice-over at the end, so I transcribed it:


When you run with the doctor, it feels like it will never end but however hard you try, you can't run forever. Everybody knows that everybody dies and nobody knows it like the doctor but I do think that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark if he just for one moment accepted that. Everybody knows that everybody dies but not every day. Not today. Some days are special. Some days are so, so blessed. Some days nobody dies at all. Now and then. Every once in a very long while. Every day in a million days, when the wind stands fair and the doctor comes to call - EVERYBODY LIVES.

Was that beautiful or what? ^_^

I just loved how the doctor stood in front of the TARDIS and did indeed open it with a snap of his fingers. Just like River said his future self could do. It seems there are a lot things the doctor doesn't know about himself either. We know that he is a telepath and the way it looks his powers in general grow over time.

One last word about the music. It made me almost weep. Murray Gold totally outdid himself again. It was sweeping, epic and at the end of the episode had the most beautiful and powerful rendition of the doctors theme. I hope that lots of music from that two parter will be on the next album.

Naonak
June 8th, 2008, 04:42 AM
Hehe, for a good chunk, the little girl was basically just watching Doctor Who... :D

I don't really think I need to talk about David Tennant and Steven Moffat's awesomeness. ;)

Anyway, even though a lot of people guessed some of it, there were still plenty of twists in store - the "doctor moon", Cal being a real girl, and the Vashta Nerada having hatched in the library...

Loved how the Vashta Nerada looked the Doctor up and then decided not to mess with him...!

Couldn't help but grin at the Doctor's "I'm very good!" and smiling at Cal... :) Once again, "everybody lives..." (kinda)

And it looks like we could be getting more Doctor/Companion shipping at some point in the future, then... :rolleyes:

kirmit
June 8th, 2008, 04:49 AM
There were so many aspects of this episode I liked, coupled with last weeks it makes a brilliant 2 parter. I don't think we'll be seeing river again to be honest, the impression I got is that she's from way into the doctors future, hence her constantly calling him young. The bit that I loved the most though was what she said about 'her' doctor, whole armies running from him etc, this gave me chills because no matter how great the doctor is now he's only a fraction of what he'll be in the future.

Jonzey
June 8th, 2008, 04:52 AM
I personally hope we never find out his real name. There is no way it could be anything but an anticlimax. I mean, remember Mr Bennett in season 1 of Heroes, how we only found out his name in the season finale, then it was just like ''ok, so what?'' I don't expect a much better response from when (if) we find out the doctor's name. All it would do is remove some of his mystery.

And yeah, marriage seems like the most likely future to me.

And I wonder how long SM has known he'd be taking over, because he's certainly sown a few seeds for future story arcs -not just River Song, but wasn't he also the one who ((The Doctor's Daughter spoilers)) insisted that Jenny wasn't killed off?

Matt G
June 8th, 2008, 05:09 AM
1. Boy did I make a bad call in the last ep.:o Yes the computer was screwed up, but then again, it was being controlled by a kid! A bit irresponsible by the Lux family to leave such a big time computer in a kid's hands, even with "Dr Moon" as a safety net!

2. Miss Evangilista in VR behind the veil looked freakier than the skeletons! :eek: Got caught completely off guard there!

3. OK, I'm an IT guy and I didn't get the "saved" thing :o but I was way ahead of the Doctor in terms of forests = trees = paper = books!

4. River. She had an interesting chemistry with the Doctor - why he gave her his name I'm not sure. I can't see him marrying and there's no history of him having that kind of relationship with his companions.

5. "Everybody lives". Yes and no. I can think of a lot worse ways to do life after death than in VR but this wasn't quite a rerun of "The Doctor Dances".

Very solid two parter though.

Alipeeps
June 8th, 2008, 05:14 AM
I really don't get how the memory thing got inside the screwdriver, where did the future Doctor get it? Because surely it would have been on river's suit until the end?


I assumed it was a different chip - obviously the technology is widely available at that time, so he's simply found a way to integrate it into the screwdriver. It's not the one from her suit but a different one and it would still pick up/save her neural energy etc because she had it with her all the time.

There's no way he could go back in his own personal timeline to get the chip from River's suit - and it wouldn't have worked anyway if he did because then that chip with her neural energy saved in it would have been in the screwdriver, degrading and fading, the whole time they were in the Library (and before that, the time between when he gave her the screwdriver and she came to the Library). So it had to have been a different chip that he hid in the screwdriver so that it would save her neural energy at the moment she died.


From what he said about "there's only one time I could [tell you my name]" I got that they went to the time war... Maybe that's going to be the grand finale of the entire series? (Not this one, I mean the ending of ALL Dr Who series.)

Oooh now there's an interesting idea! Maybe! Although, as I said above, from watching Dr Who Confidential, the possible future wife thing seems to be what the writers/producers etc were trying to hint at.


I personally hope we never find out his real name. There is no way it could be anything but an anticlimax. I mean, remember Mr Bennett in season 1 of Heroes, how we only found out his name in the season finale, then it was just like ''ok, so what?'' I don't expect a much better response from when (if) we find out the doctor's name. All it would do is remove some of his mystery.


Definitely. They talked about that in Doctor Who Confidential too - about the fact that the mystery of it is what's fascinating and they'd never be able to give him a name because nothing would ever be good enough to live up to that mystery. If you found out his name was Keith or something, then it would be such an anticlimax! :lol:

LiliJ
June 8th, 2008, 05:33 AM
I had hoped for a clear answer who River Song was but unfortunately we didn't get one. Just tantalizing bits and pieces. I don't think that River was married to the doctor and if she had been, then it was the weirdest marriage ever. The doctor turning up whenever he wants to or when she calls him but everything she said made me wonder. She knew his name. The name we even do not know and it seems to be very, very special. I wonder on what very special occasion that name is uttered. Maybe childbirth but that seems so far fetched. Can anybody think of an occasion when the doctor would give away his real name other then marriage and childbirth because I can't think of any. It certainly has nothing to do with sex I think, because I do believe that the doctor gets some, sometimes ;-) River was a wonderful character and IMHO whoever will be in charge of the doctor in the future is now forced to bring the storyline back though I doubt that Alex Kingston will play River again. I think it would be a wonderful storyline for the last doctor aka doctor number 13. Since we all love the doctor too much and the Beep has no interest in killing off a character that has been on air for fifty years I doubt, that the end will come any time soon. I think fanfic authors are called to action here to spin the story of the 13th doctor and River Song. I felt so sorry for Donna. The virtual reality life showed that, despite her constant assurances that she wants to travel with the doctor forever, all she truly craves is a normal life with kids and a loving husband. I do hope that Donna and her stuttering husband will find each other again. The scene with Donna and the doctor - both heartbroken was touching.


The time war!!! :lol: I just think that's the only time he could EVER say his name - marriage and childbirth seem too tame to me. I mean, he's a timelord - he must have been to heaps of those (maybe even his own :P).


I personally hope we never find out his real name. There is no way it could be anything but an anticlimax.

Yeah, me too, to be honest. I mean with such an advanced species like that a name isn't just going to be a label we use to define ourselves - "The Doctor" is his. In a series of book I once read, a person's proper name was a sound, a feeling, and an image all at once. If the name was ever uttered it had a deep and powerful link to the person's soul - I think the Doctor's name has got to be something like that.

I don't like the whole wifey thing to be honest. It seems too tame for the Doctor, and I don't think he'd ever let himself make that kind of a commitment to a human as they won't live as long as him - it wouldn't be fair to them. Also they could never understand him completely (which I think he thinks is a good thing). But River did seem to be a pretty amazing woman! I hope that we get to see her again. :D


I assumed it was a different chip - obviously the technology is widely available at that time, so he's simply found a way to integrate it into the screwdriver. It's not the one from her suit but a different one and it would still pick up/save her neural energy etc because she had it with her all the time.

That's a possibility.

Jonzey
June 8th, 2008, 05:38 AM
I doubt it would be the grand finale of the entire series because
a) that could be years away, if ever
b) she would have to be familiar with what the current doctor looks likes
c) by that time, the actress would probably look older or theyd have to get someone else
d) its a long way in advance to plan the end of the series

of course, im talking about 10 or more years in the future- given how the series is not limited by actors or showrunners it doesn't need to have an end. at least, not anytime soon.

LiliJ
June 8th, 2008, 05:40 AM
Yeah, I know, I just thought they'd put something that big right at the end - it would be hard to follow up. I'm personally thinking that the younger River will be played by someone else and the Doctor will give her one of his regenerations (I got told at some point that that's possible - something in the older series I think).

Willow'sCat
June 8th, 2008, 05:52 AM
Hmm, I am a bit *meh* on this episode. I really did love the first part but this one just seemed out of step. Trying to tell or say too much in a short space of time. Last week seemed better paced, this week just seemed rushed.

River Song, could be anyone, we only have her own words to go on. Is she really 'just' an archaeologist? Did she really have a deeper relationship with him? What about the end of the Universe? We don't get two surely? As for her (the actor) turning up in the future, well that is where this all falls down for me, as I said last week I couldn't buy her turning up say in two or three series and playing her age as she is now. I think about Angel (David) and the amount of times I had to shut out the thoughts about him (David) really looking older then he did in season one of Buffy... he was playing a vampire he shouldn't be aging! :P

Maybe by then it won't matter, if then ever comes. Or maybe they (tptb) intended for this to be another one of those things we are told about but we never get to see... Time War. If it is the latter then I am wondering what the point is... unless Donna reads the book. We never saw what Donna did after The Doctor up and ran away with the sonic screwdriver, maybe Donna took the book? Maybe the book is part of the finale? I have to say given human nature I would be neither shocked nor surprised if Donna did take the book. ;)

What's in a name? Who cares? I have no idea why I am meant to care about this, when were we told his name was so important? Is is just another thread through the series "Bad Wolf" style?

"Click". Well I certainly hope they keep the clicking to a minimum or it will get old real soon.

Overall there were some creepy moments, some funny moments (Donna getting married, never saw that coming! :p) and some frustrating moments, some moments where my heart broke for Donna; but was this anything more then a stand alone (2 part) episode? I hope not as so much just didn't need telling unless they do follow through.

No where near as good as "Blink" but better then the previous stories.;):)

Dusk
June 8th, 2008, 06:02 AM
Masterful! Just masterful!


Amazing episode, though not as good as part one, and probably Moffat's weakest episode (though still as I said earlier amazing).

I disagree, this one topples Part I by a parsec, especially because of the final scenes.


It was a good episode, it was just a little infuriating how they kept going on about spoilers and never actually revealed anything.

Haha, which is exactly why they kept gong on about it, to piss off all the spoilerheads out there.


I think the Doctor's name is Ned. Ned the Timelord.

Mr Prophet
June 8th, 2008, 06:05 AM
Just occurred to me is this: What if the one moment that the Doctor could say his name is when he dies. If River is familiar with more than one regeneration (and she clearly knew about the process), and if she met him time and again in an odd order for both of them (her wish to compare diaries suggests that their orders don't remotely match) then maybe the first time - or just a time - is when the Doctor finally dies.

Of course, if this is the case then we will probably never get to see it, but such is life.

It's established that a Time Lord - or more specifically The Master - can steal another's regenerations, but if he could give them away then surely he would have given one of his lives to Jenny.

Willow'sCat
June 8th, 2008, 06:15 AM
It's established that a Time Lord - or more specifically The Master - can steal another's regenerations, but if he could give them away then surely he would have given one of his lives to Jenny.However I always got the impression that although The Master is quite mad, he turned even more insane after he did that. :p I don't think they are meant to take anyone else's lives or regenerations without paying a huge debt.

I think only the council of The Time Lords could do that. They did bring The Master back (twice now?).:S As for Jenny we still don't know if only Time Lords/Ladys can regenerate or if it is all those with two hearts etc. Maybe Jenny isn't a Time Lady so maybe The Doctor could never have given her a regeneration, maybe he sensed that.

pbellosom
June 8th, 2008, 06:20 AM
Masterful! Just masterful!
I think the Doctor's name is Ned. Ned the Timelord.

I thought we agreed somewhere that it was Pete? And that Who was his real surname after all.


Donna reads the book. We never saw what Donna did after The Doctor up and ran away with the sonic screwdriver, maybe Donna took the book? Maybe the book is part of the finale? I have to say given human nature I would be neither shocked nor surprised if Donna did take the book. ;)


That would be cool


I presumed that was a different chip; a better one which, being linked to the screwdriver, held her entire mental print, rather than just a ghost, for a good long time. There were clearly plenty of the chips and it woudl be easy enough for the Doctor to get hold of one. He couldn't have gone back for the one in his suit, because he was already there.


Of course! Thank you.


Hehe, for a good chunk, the little girl was basically just watching Doctor Who... :D


I noticed that, I found it hysterical

Gate-builder
June 8th, 2008, 07:07 AM
Doesn't seem very likely, but maybe he told her his name because he knows that she will reveal to him that she knows it, in order for her to get him to trust her. Kinda hard to explain!

I hope we don't find out what the Doctors real name is, but I really want to know what is so special about it. Why it is hidden and everything.

Reefgirl
June 8th, 2008, 07:16 AM
IMO I think River was there at the end of his last regeneration and that's where she learned his name, he told her as he died


It was a good episode, it was just a little infuriating how they kept going on about spoilers and never actually revealed anything.
Personally I think it was a dig at The Sun, who seem to delight in spoiling episodes for everyone

Alipeeps
June 8th, 2008, 07:31 AM
Just occurred to me is this: What if the one moment that the Doctor could say his name is when he dies. If River is familiar with more than one regeneration (and she clearly knew about the process), and if she met him time and again in an odd order for both of them (her wish to compare diaries suggests that their orders don't remotely match) then maybe the first time - or just a time - is when the Doctor finally dies.


I dunno. I very much got the impression that River specifically knew this Doctor, this regeneration?


Personally I think it was a dig at The Sun, who seem to delight in spoiling episodes for everyone

And particularly these episodes - I'm pretty sure I read that these eps, or one of them, was the one that The Sun got ahold of a leaked script for and threatened to print the entire plot in advance of the eps... :mad:

Naonak
June 8th, 2008, 07:53 AM
I don't think River was there for the Doctor's death - she told that whole story about the last time she saw him, with the Singing Towers and him giving her the sonic screwdriver... Didn't really sound like he died...

This is probably something SM wants to deal with during his time as showrunner, so I don't think it'll be years and years away.

Mr Prophet
June 8th, 2008, 09:58 AM
I don't think River was there for the Doctor's death - she told that whole story about the last time she saw him, with the Singing Towers and him giving her the sonic screwdriver... Didn't really sound like he died...

The last time she saw him, but not necessarily the last time he saw her. I think they must have crisscrossed a lot, so just as he saw her die before he got to know her, maybe she saw him die before she got to know him.


I dunno. I very much got the impression that River specifically knew this Doctor, this regeneration?

Most certainly, but did she know just that regeneration? Remember that when she started comparing notes, she said:

River Song: Judging by your face it's early days.

Looking back, it struck me that it's only later that she starts commenting on how young he is, so maybe rather than lines she's talking about which face he's wearing.

Jonzey
June 8th, 2008, 10:33 AM
Oh, and an interesting thing about next week's episodes. Probably doesn't need to be in spoiler tags since it's irrelevant to the plot (probably) but it guest stars David Troughton- son of Patrick Troughton aka the 2nd doctor.

ShadowMaat
June 8th, 2008, 11:03 AM
I also wondered when she mentioned his showing up with "a new haircut" if that might not be doublespeak for a regeneration. ;) I wonder how many of his faces she's seen?

Reefgirl
June 8th, 2008, 11:41 AM
Oh, and an interesting thing about next week's episodes. Probably doesn't need to be in spoiler tags since it's irrelevant to the plot (probably) but it guest stars David Troughton- son of Patrick Troughton aka the 2nd doctor.

Woohoo, all we need now is

Sean Pertwee guest star

P-90_177
June 8th, 2008, 03:42 PM
Hey did anyone else feel that the music for this episode was particularly amazeing? I mean the music in doctor who is always brilliant but it was just incredible in this ep.

Bray
June 9th, 2008, 02:50 AM
Just watched it on the iPlayer (well last night actually :D) and wow! I thought it was awesome how the Vashda Narada could talk...well kinda.

Poor other Dave, I loved how they did that, I had barely realised that he was shouting the same thing until it was too late.

The preview of next weeks episode unfortunatly looked a bit meh.....but I will be more than happy to be prooved wrong on that point.

I think that this was about on par with blink....if not better actually.

And that poor guy with the stutter! I was like NOOOO!! just yell something! Burp really loud just get her attention!

Alipeeps
June 9th, 2008, 03:32 AM
The preview of next weeks episode unfortunatly looked a bit meh.....but I will be more than happy to be prooved wrong on that point.

Yeah, not the best preview - cos from what I've read in the Doctor Who Magazine, next week's episode sounds really good! So am hoping it's just the promo not doing it justice... Mind you, it's also supposed to be quite different from the usual eps so maybe it's a style/concept that doesn't translate well to promo ads! :)


And that poor guy with the stutter! I was like NOOOO!! just yell something! Burp really loud just get her attention!

Hubby said why didn't he jump off the transport pad - I pointed out that it was about to transport and he might have ended up jumping at the wrong moment and only getting half transported and losing a limb or two! :lol:

Bray
June 9th, 2008, 05:16 AM
lol yeah I was like just jump off! Then I thought...wait no....that might not be a good idea :p

Ah good at least it sounds like it might not be as bad as it first looked.

When I first saw it I was like.....Isn't that Colonial 1 off BSG? :D

AvatarIII
June 9th, 2008, 05:52 AM
ahhhh
so that's how 'the doctor's "song" ended' ;)

Madeleine
June 9th, 2008, 09:10 AM
My Youngest: "I wonder what the Doctor's real name is?"
Firstborn: "Daft boy! We KNOW what it is.
Youngest: "I don't."
Firstborn: "We heard River Song call the Doctor it, she called him it loads"
Youngest: "What is it then?"
Firstborn: "It's - - 'Spoilers', how could you miss that?"

Alipeeps
June 9th, 2008, 09:12 AM
My Youngest: "I wonder what the Doctor's real name is?"
Firstborn: "Daft boy! We KNOW what it is.
Youngest: "I don't."
Firstborn: "We heard River Song call the Doctor it, she called him it loads"
Youngest: "What is it then?"
Firstborn: "It's - - 'Spoilers', how could you miss that?"

:lol: Bless! :D

GodAtum
June 9th, 2008, 09:53 AM
Very poignant the resolution of River's story (River's song? Could this perhaps have been what the Ood referred to as the Doctor's song must end soon? ;)) - ahhh I do love my Doctor when he's angsty. :D

Oh I completely forgot about that reference :)

I thought River was the Doctor's daughter but probably not.

Also can the Doctor still communicate with River in the computer?

wise one
June 9th, 2008, 12:06 PM
what gets me is 4,200 people in the biggest libary in the universe, its a whole planet

shouldnt there be millions of people on it or atleast 100,000 or more

good episode, reminded me of a scooby doo monster

P-90_177
June 9th, 2008, 12:08 PM
what gets me is 4,200 people in the biggest libary in the universe, its a whole planet

shouldnt there be millions of people on it or atleast 100,000 or more

good episode, reminded me of a scooby doo monster

well just imagine how many people the Vashta Narada no doubt managed to eat before CAL got the rest away.

Pitry
June 9th, 2008, 01:46 PM
I really really loved this episode.... up til the last five minutes.

The good - loved Donna's bit. To pieces. Seriuosly - trust Doctor Who to take the "this plot has been done in every science fiction show posible" bit and throw a new angle on it - in this case, instead of being the heroic heroine who knows her mind well enough to know she's being lied to and insisting that her madhouse experience can't eb real, Donna does the exact opposite - up to the point of struggling to hold on to her fantasy even when she is shown absolute truth - and indeed, remembers herself - it's a lie. Loved it.
"You mean this body isn't real? I've been dieting!!!." Did I mention Donna is the best conpanion, ever? :D
Doctor Moon was also brilliant "and then you rememebred, and then you forgot" - such a brilliant delivery.

The library scenes were also quite good. Loved the fact that it took the Doctor a moment to catch himself adn start acting Doctorishly again after River told him his name.
"Drag him when he gets too stupid to love" - brilliant. And shame about Other Dave! Well, they all died, and Anita was completely wonderful in her scenes - but still, sniff sniff about Other Dave.

The not so good - a shame they decided to change the episode's name from River's Run to Forest of the Dead. The whole Vashta Nerada bit was - at least to me - not quite interesting and definiltey not important enough to be referred to by the title. And besides, it sounds like a cheap horror movie :P

The really bad. The last five minutes. Sigh.
Doctor Who is one of the most emotionaly manipulative shows I know. It works, it works beautifuly, and I wouldn't have it any other way - but it also means they have to understand that when the emotional manipulation becomes obvious, it stops working.
And ripping off emotional hights from three(!) different episodes is telling the viewer "you're supposed to be touched". Sorry kids, doesn't work that way. Putting a big neon sign above the emotionally manipulating moment is not a good way to make it work.
I do hope it was just a momentary lack of judgement rather than showing a misunderstanding of why these moments worked in The Doctor Dances, Gridlock and Family of Blood and why they had no chance in hell of working here. Because immitation without understanding makes for a very frustrating ending.

Especialy the everybody lvies bit. Seriuosly. I mean, if it was meant or shown in any ironic way it would have been brilliant - but it was shown in absolute sincerity, as if everyone did live. Hello? From now on, whenever the Doctor sees River he's going to remember exactly how she dies because he saw her die. And it's going to keep on being there as he gets to know her better and better - I mean, even if she's not his future-past-whatever wife, he definietly gets close enough to her to tell her his name. And he's always known how she dies. The whole point of "everybody lives" was some healing from the Time War and the Doctor seeing he doesn't just bring death with him and it's not all so bad. How is seeing her die anything like it - even if she does get some cyber existance somewhere? He's not any less sad about Rose even though she's alive...
Meh.

o, I'l just take Doctor Moon's advice and forget everything after the Doctor and Donna walk away from the Tardis diary. :)

Reefgirl
June 9th, 2008, 02:13 PM
My Youngest: "I wonder what the Doctor's real name is?"
Firstborn: "Daft boy! We KNOW what it is.
Youngest: "I don't."
Firstborn: "We heard River Song call the Doctor it, she called him it loads"
Youngest: "What is it then?"
Firstborn: "It's - - 'Spoilers', how could you miss that?"


Awww bless 'em

Willow'sCat
June 9th, 2008, 08:40 PM
The really bad. The last five minutes. Sigh.
Doctor Who is one of the most emotionaly manipulative shows I know. It works, it works beautifuly, and I wouldn't have it any other way - but it also means they have to understand that when the emotional manipulation becomes obvious, it stops working.Totally agree. I get so annoyed when shows do this. SGA is the top of my list for this kind of thing but with SGA it hardly ever works.:cool:

When it works on Doctor Who, which is most of the time, it works brilliantly :) but here I didn't feel it worked. OK with Donna it did ;) but I think I can related better to Donna's situation, even though I don't want to get married or have kids :p I can still understand her feelings in the end when all that is taken from her. :(

AvatarIII
June 10th, 2008, 05:40 AM
well just imagine how many people the Vashta Narada no doubt managed to eat before CAL got the rest away.

none, because there were no bodies. and because they said 4022 was exactly the number of people in the library when it went silent :P

anyway, what got me is when they all came back, they weren't all spread out. you'd expect them to all be put back where they were found right? but they were all around the entrance.

Alipeeps
June 10th, 2008, 05:48 AM
none, because there were no bodies. and because they said 4022 was exactly the number of people in the library when it went silent :P

anyway, what got me is when they all came back, they weren't all spread out. you'd expect them to all be put back where they were found right? but they were all around the entrance.

Some of them were further out when whatsisname went to look outside... maybe the library shut down just after opening time and people hadn't had chance to move far beyond the entrance...? :D

Reefgirl
June 10th, 2008, 06:00 AM
none, because there were no bodies. and because they said 4022 was exactly the number of people in the library when it went silent :P

anyway, what got me is when they all came back, they weren't all spread out. you'd expect them to all be put back where they were found right? but they were all around the entrance.
Maybe it was a Wednesday and half closing so not many people were there

Are there any shops that still close Half Day on a Wednesday?

Alipeeps
June 10th, 2008, 06:37 AM
Maybe it was a Wednesday and half closing so not many people were there

Are there any shops that still close Half Day on a Wednesday?

Jeesh, don't think so. I remember when every shop used to - my dad had a shop back in the day and closed on Wednesday afternoons. *nostalgic sigh*

AvatarIII
June 10th, 2008, 06:49 AM
Maybe it was a Wednesday and half closing so not many people were there

Are there any shops that still close Half Day on a Wednesday?

no, they normally stay open later on a thursday to make up for it though :D

(wahay, this is my 1969th on topic post, making it my official post of the summer of love http://forum.gateworld.net/images/gw_icons/heart.gif)

Dusk
June 10th, 2008, 07:04 AM
what gets me is 4,200 people in the biggest libary in the universe, its a whole planet

shouldnt there be millions of people on it or atleast 100,000 or more

It was a beautiful Sunday afternoon at the time, and Desperate House Oods was on TV.

Reefgirl
June 10th, 2008, 02:33 PM
Jeesh, don't think so. I remember when every shop used to - my dad had a shop back in the day and closed on Wednesday afternoons. *nostalgic sigh*

Even when it wasn't the done thing to close on a wednesday after noon the local Ironmonger did, just to prove a point

jds1982
June 11th, 2008, 06:30 AM
I think the Doctor's name is Ned. Ned the Timelord.

Well maybe that's the real reason the Doctor doesn't tell his name, because it's horrible and embarrassing.

Pitry
June 11th, 2008, 07:44 AM
Well maybe that's the real reason the Doctor doesn't tell his name, because it's horrible and embarrassing.

Maybe his real name is Angus?
:D:D:D

jds1982
June 11th, 2008, 08:44 AM
Maybe his real name is Angus?
:D:D:D

Angus is an awesome name, especially if your last name is MacGyver! I was thinking more along the lines of Cletus, or Maynard, or Smeghead.

pbellosom
June 11th, 2008, 10:00 AM
Angus is an awesome name, especially if your last name is MacGyver! I was thinking more along the lines of Cletus, or Maynard, or Smeghead.

Why would anyone name their child Smeghead?

Specter
June 11th, 2008, 10:26 AM
Was any one else reminded of the timelord matrix?

There was an awful lot of similarity's between the libary data core and that particular piece of collective timelord knowledge.

As for his name he said "only one time I could (tell anyone)". There are two things that people can only do once in their life, be born, and die (physical condition before regeneration not counted). Since she never seen him any younger; and I doubt he would write his name on a tomb for the universe to see; she must have been with him at the end of his last regeneration.

In conclusion his name is Earl.

Pitry
June 11th, 2008, 12:10 PM
Angus is an awesome name, especially if your last name is MacGyver! I was thinking more along the lines of Cletus, or Maynard, or Smeghead.

*pats* that was the joke, love. ;)

Alipeeps
June 11th, 2008, 02:53 PM
Was any one else reminded of the timelord matrix?

There was an awful lot of similarity's between the libary data core and that particular piece of collective timelord knowledge.

As for his name he said "only one time I could (tell anyone)". There are two things that people can only do once in their life, be born, and die (physical condition before regeneration not counted). Since she never seen him any younger; and I doubt he would write his name on a tomb for the universe to see; she must have been with him at the end of his last regeneration.

In conclusion his name is Earl.

That depends on how you interpret "only one time" - does that mean, as you suggest, an occasion that happens only once in a lifetime (e.g. birth and death) or does it mean only one specific occasion/set of circumstances in one's life (but not necessarily one that can never be repeated) (e.g. marriage, birth of a child, criminal trial etc etc)?

nx01a
June 12th, 2008, 04:32 PM
The Good:
>Donna and the Doctor both lose love, though the love can potentially return. The guy with the stutter doesn't deserve Donna. If it were Donna on that teleport pad, she would have jumped off, run up and grabbed him.:P It was horrible to think that Donna would have to live with those memories, knowing they're not 'real'. Then again, it's just like Martha and her family and their memories of the year of hell with the Master. I was afraid something like this would happen to Donna. None of these companions come out unscathed like most of the old ones.:(
>The 'cut to scene X' elements of the virtual world. Just like cutting between scenes on tv. The little girl / CAL watching tense moments on tv, being scared by elements that viewing kids were probably scared by. Moffat did a great commentary on the art of making and watching tv in this one. It distanced us a bit from the danger, watching someone else watch it on tv.
>Ms Evangelista! Brilliant! IQ shifted a decimal place.:D
>River Song, or, as I shall refer to her to fit the Doctor, the Professor.:) A smart woman who realizes the dumb martyr complex the Doctor has and takes steps to help/save him and everyone else. It was so sweet that the future Doctor helped save her. Perhaps they were married or life partners or whatever, but they definitely were close and I look forward to seeing the Doctor meet her. I wonder how different she will be from the woman we've seen, with her Doctor-like calm and sensibility.
>The Vashta Nerada coming from the books! If that's the case, then Dame Agatha's a mass murderer, what with being the universe's best selling author and all.
>The Doctor making like Superman, flying around against time to save the woman he 'will' love.:P That was impressive.
>"It's a doctor moon." "Doctor Moon?" :D
>The little girl being the computer. Figured. Teleport vs flesh banks, eh. Still saved.
>The little girl 'turning off' her dad.:D
>Just like the human/Hath complex was an Ancient spire, The Library is Asuras!
>Everybody lives! I was miffed when this happened in the gas mask mommy episodes, but it feels right here.
>The Doctor's name. This is the second(?) time that's been mentioned this season. The last time, it was said to be 'written across the Medusa Cascade'? I smell another season finale plot thread, along with the missing planets and the bees. I assumed he just had to form a true emotional connection with and implicitly trust someone to reveal his true name to them.
>A little over 4,000 people is kinda sparse for an entire planet of knowledge.
>Big business wasn't portrayed as evil! Not sure if that's a good thing or not, but... This time, big business was just portrayed as stupid.:P Naming the business family Lux and having an evil enemy of darkness seemed a bit blatant that they were intentionally connected, but apparently not. Moffat threw me off with that one.
>SNAP! Hey, if Rose can annihilate entire Dalek fleets with the power of the Tardis, then the Doctor can open the door by snapping. The Tardis doors work on a snapper. I wonder what would happen if he clapped?:P

The Bad:
>Why wasn't the Doctor raving about the Professor using a gun? He raves every time someone else pulls one.
>The materialized library users... Why weren't they bewildered? Weren't they under the same virtual illusion as Donna? Or did Ms. Evangelista appear to each of them?
>NOT reading the book! The Doctor knows how much death and destruction follows him around, look in it! See who doesn't have to die needlessly for you to save the universe.

The Verdict:
I greatly enjoyed this episode, even more than the first part.
Definitely more of the same!

pbellosom
June 13th, 2008, 01:09 AM
>Why wasn't the Doctor raving about the Professor using a gun? He raves every time someone else pulls one.

I don't think he minds about the squareness gun, he didn't complain when Jack used it and it wasn't actually used to attack living things, just makes holes in things.

ShadowMaat
June 13th, 2008, 01:13 AM
The squareness gun makes holes in walls, not people. :P The Doctor has no issues with people committing random acts of violence against architecture. ;) Well, maybe if it was pretty architecture, but a boring old wall? Pfft!

nx01a
June 13th, 2008, 11:43 AM
I was wondering why the Professor didn't use the gun against the Vashta Nerada. They're physical beings, I figure they could get squared.:P

Teddybrown
June 14th, 2008, 02:23 PM
Good episdoe all round
Still a bit confused as to who the Professor actually was but we may learn in the distant future
As i said good episode and keeping up the good work of the season

Jeffala
June 28th, 2008, 05:35 AM
Don't hate me, but this ("Silence" & "Forest") is the first time that I've really, really liked the new Doctor Who episodes. It might be because I'm a fan of Alex Kingston from her days on ER, but I actually made it a point to be home to watch these two. I've seen several episodes before, but this one was just brilliant to me.

I looked at the clock at 8:10 and was amazed that only 10 minutes had passed.

LOVED IT!

nx01a
June 28th, 2008, 08:25 AM
:danielanime08:Another convert.:danielanime08:

I avoid spoilers for Who and had NO idea Dr. Corday was in these episodes, so I was pleasantly surprised.

So, the knowledge of the Doctor's future is in a consciousness housed in a living computer on a planet infested by flesh-eating aliens potentially in any shadow? Sounds like a prime target for the Daleks to invade, or anyone with a sealed non-organic hull...

And speaking of the Vashta Nerada, how long can they live / go without food? Without people or animals [I realize it's a whole planet, but I assume it was constructed, like the moon] to eat, how long can they survive? They lived a century between the 'saving' of the library browsers and the coming of the Doctor without food, so they should last at least another one. But the planet will be effectively cut off and quarantined, they won't get any more meat. :(

Jeffala
June 28th, 2008, 08:35 AM
Also, and again don't hate me, but I like Donna Noble better than the two previous companions.

nx01a
June 28th, 2008, 08:40 AM
Bless. Bless.

ShadowMaat
June 28th, 2008, 10:14 AM
And speaking of the Vashta Nerada, how long can they live / go without food? Without people or animals [I realize it's a whole planet, but I assume it was constructed, like the moon] to eat, how long can they survive? They lived a century between the 'saving' of the library browsers and the coming of the Doctor without food, so they should last at least another one. But the planet will be effectively cut off and quarantined, they won't get any more meat. :(

Hibernation. It's why people were OK in the Library at first, too. At least I assume that people were wandering around and browsing and that it wasn't the grand opening or whatever. Then the Vashta Nerada woke up and attacked... and when the food was gone they went back to sleep. Until more meat showed up. :D

nx01a
June 28th, 2008, 11:48 AM
Hibernation. It's why people were OK in the Library at first, too. At least I assume that people were wandering around and browsing and that it wasn't the grand opening or whatever. Then the Vashta Nerada woke up and attacked... and when the food was gone they went back to sleep. Until more meat showed up. :D
The Doctor mentioned that CAL teleported everyone when the Vashta Nerada reached their 'hatching cycle', so I assume that was the first time they emerged. I guess they could hybernate, but that'll be one looooooong hibernation. Then again, as long as there're archaeolgists willing to break quarantines to investigate stuff, they'll have a snack here and there.

ShadowMaat
June 28th, 2008, 02:01 PM
I'm sure I've read of some species of fish or frog or something that can hibernate for years in the mud/dirt after a pond dried up only to "thaw out" years later when there was enough rainfall to restore them. Or maybe bacteria or something. *shrug* Dunno. For me it isn't very high on the scale of Impossible Things. I've seen things on the show I've found MUCH harder to accept, scribble monsters being only one of them. ;)

nx01a
June 29th, 2008, 08:41 AM
Oh no you DIDN'T mention 'Fear Her'! :D Next thing you'll be citing 'Love and Monsters'...

I agree, it's a minor thing, but it just had me thinking.

wwlh
June 29th, 2008, 08:45 AM
Last night went and saw Billy Joel in concert (sang ALL his old stuff - AMAZING) - however...with all the lighting effects -at one point during the show all there was was a single spotlight beaming down on him - and all was well till i notices all the swirls of smoke and whatever floating around in the beam of light....all I could think was how many Vashta Nerada are here with me right now....hope their not hungry...

nx01a
June 29th, 2008, 09:05 AM
Not every shadow, but any shadow.;)

ShadowMaat
June 29th, 2008, 10:52 AM
Oh no you DIDN'T mention 'Fear Her'! :D Next thing you'll be citing 'Love and Monsters'...
I was going to, but fortunately I worked out this cozy theory where the end of L&M never happened and Elton was just mad with grief and pretending crazy things. ;)

nx01a
June 29th, 2008, 11:05 AM
I was going to, but fortunately I worked out this cozy theory where the end of L&M never happened and Elton was just mad with grief and pretending crazy things. ;)I read your theory. I, too, find it comforting. I have a theory that Chloe's Dad in 'Fear Her' was actually The Beast.:P

I'm quite glad I don't have to delude myself with anything for recent episodes, like this great 2 parter.

Coco Pops
August 26th, 2008, 10:44 PM
So what is the Doc's name?

Anyone have ideas?

Coco Pops
August 26th, 2008, 10:47 PM
Also, and again don't hate me, but I like Donna Noble better than the two previous companions.



I think Donna is the best companion they've ever had on Who

Jeffala
August 26th, 2008, 10:56 PM
I think Donna is the best companion they've ever had on Who

Spoiler for "Journey's End", though I doubt anyone's not seen it by now:
The writers should be flogged for what they did to her at the end of the episode!

Coco Pops
August 26th, 2008, 10:56 PM
What the bleep was it with the names?

"Other Dave" "Proper Dave" I don't get it.

Coco Pops
August 26th, 2008, 10:57 PM
Spoiler for "Journey's End", though I doubt anyone's not seen it by now:
The writers should be flogged for what they did to her at the end of the episode!



Uuumm I totally agree but a lot of people here think that was the only way it could have gone.

ShadowMaat
August 26th, 2008, 11:17 PM
What the bleep was it with the names?

"Other Dave" "Proper Dave" I don't get it.
Proper Dave came first and/or had the higher rank, so he's proper, whereas Other Dave was hired later on or wasn't as important so he's other. ;)

Coco Pops
September 2nd, 2008, 10:16 PM
One thing I didn't get.

How did the Vashta Nerada look up the Doctor in the index when they were inside that space suit talking to the Doctor? He told them to look him up and they recoiled back and didn't attack.


And all that stuff about ghosting didn't make sense if they were just communicators, unless they use some kind of telepathic link.

Jeffala
September 3rd, 2008, 01:12 AM
Perhaps the Vashta Nerada in the suit can communicate with their kind outside of the suit. That still leads to the question of how the other Vashta Nerada could operate a computer system and look him up.

nx01a
September 5th, 2008, 03:09 PM
Perhaps it was simply the way he said it. The force and anger coming from him... It parallels what River Song said about seeing armies flee him.

Coco Pops
September 5th, 2008, 08:54 PM
The Vashta Nerada reminds me a lot of The Gloom in Nightwatch

gateship15
March 16th, 2009, 02:29 AM
i liked this episode it is fantastic i like the Vashta Nerada because it plays on humans fear of the dark i also like they were the piranhas of the air and in just seconds they rip the flesh from the bone. i deferentially be counting shadows

Ishay
April 26th, 2009, 02:54 PM
wow what a two parter and i didn't think i could cry more then i did after doomsday but the ending to forest of the dead beat it. i really want to see what river and the doctor became in a future series.

10/10 perfect

gateship15
April 27th, 2009, 03:42 AM
i agree i want to as well i just hope that they do show us river and the doctors adventures

Coco Pops
July 11th, 2009, 06:17 AM
:danielanime08:Another convert.:danielanime08:

I avoid spoilers for Who and had NO idea Dr. Corday was in these episodes, so I was pleasantly surprised.

So, the knowledge of the Doctor's future is in a consciousness housed in a living computer on a planet infested by flesh-eating aliens potentially in any shadow? Sounds like a prime target for the Daleks to invade, or anyone with a sealed non-organic hull...

And speaking of the Vashta Nerada, how long can they live / go without food? Without people or animals [I realize it's a whole planet, but I assume it was constructed, like the moon] to eat, how long can they survive? They lived a century between the 'saving' of the library browsers and the coming of the Doctor without food, so they should last at least another one. But the planet will be effectively cut off and quarantined, they won't get any more meat. :(



Couldn't they eat CAL

gateship15
July 11th, 2009, 09:25 PM
i don't know altho i think cals mind was downloaded into and she doesn't have body if that is so there is nothing for them to eat

hawkmajor
July 12th, 2009, 04:52 AM
do you reckon whether River Song will travel with the doctor or not?

Coco Pops
July 12th, 2009, 11:51 PM
do you reckon whether River Song will travel with the doctor or not?


Well from the Doctor's POV he met her in the library but in his future he will meet her again when they become friends. So I would say it's a strong possibility they would travel together...

More interesting is that I'd like to know from "POTO" did the Ood sense the passing of the Doctor in his current form? They said "your song will end soon" and in "Journey's end" he mumbles about the Ood possibly sensing the whole DoctorDonna thing that happens to Donna but I think there could have been more to that.

gateship15
July 12th, 2009, 11:56 PM
if i remember correctly she meets him for the first time when he is his future self then after being with him for some time calls the past self by mistake. i can't wait to see her travel with the doctor and see if they were just friends or more then that.

hawkmajor
September 12th, 2009, 09:40 AM
if i remember correctly she meets him for the first time when he is his future self then after being with him for some time calls the past self by mistake. i can't wait to see her travel with the doctor and see if they were just friends or more then that.
2010 series maybe??

Coco Pops
September 12th, 2009, 08:02 PM
if i remember correctly she meets him for the first time when he is his future self then after being with him for some time calls the past self by mistake. i can't wait to see her travel with the doctor and see if they were just friends or more then that.


Well it's fair to say that obviusly they are more then friends... After all he told her his name.. The one thing he can never tell anyone, which I still think is kinda dumb. But then that would ruin the show if we know his name.

gateship15
September 12th, 2009, 08:56 PM
true it was obvious they were more then friends and i think him telling her his name was meant to be a show of great trust since there must be a reason he tells no one his name. i also agree it would ruin the show if we knew his name.

hawkmajor
September 13th, 2009, 11:31 AM
Well it's fair to say that obviusly they are more then friends... After all he told her his name.. The one thing he can never tell anyone, which I still think is kinda dumb. But then that would ruin the show if we know his name.
yesyesyesyesyes!!!!
the whole point of the doctor is to hide his name and seem mysterious

gateship15
September 13th, 2009, 07:12 PM
i agree i want to know it but at the same time i would rather not because i like not knowing but curious to what it is.

hawkmajor
September 14th, 2009, 09:34 AM
i agree i want to know it but at the same time i would rather not because i like not knowing but curious to what it is.
who isnt curious of his name??
apparently its very hard to pronounce

gateship15
September 14th, 2009, 09:56 PM
true. i think all time lords/ time ladys names are hard to pronounce like Romana's full name Romanadvoratrelundar i can't even pronounce that.

hawkmajor
September 17th, 2009, 02:15 PM
true. i think all time lords/ time ladys names are hard to pronounce like Romana's full name Romanadvoratrelundar i can't even pronounce that.
i see what you mean...

gateship15
September 17th, 2009, 09:57 PM
:) i can't imagine what the doctors woulds be

hawkmajor
September 18th, 2009, 09:16 AM
same hear...
its possible it could be really easy to pronounce

Coco Pops
September 18th, 2009, 09:50 AM
same hear...
its possible it could be really easy to pronounce


Anything as long as its not "Bob" :D

hawkmajor
September 18th, 2009, 09:59 AM
Anything as long as its not "Bob" :D
i've just replied (http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=10615130&postcount=238) to bob the goa'uld
i'm not doing bob the time lord

gateship15
September 19th, 2009, 05:39 AM
lol true plus its not long enough :). i don't think it would be bob isn't he a builder

hawkmajor
September 19th, 2009, 05:56 AM
lol true plus its not long enough :). i don't think it would be bob isn't he a builder
some say thay his last name is actually "who"

gateship15
September 20th, 2009, 12:04 AM
hmm interesting i never thought of that.

hawkmajor
September 20th, 2009, 10:05 AM
hmm interesting i never thought of that.
just occured to me

gateship15
September 20th, 2009, 10:28 PM
i'm glad it did now i have something to think about.

hawkmajor
September 21st, 2009, 09:05 AM
same here... i am very bored atm

gateship15
September 21st, 2009, 07:22 PM
lol i am to very very bored

Coco Pops
September 21st, 2009, 07:49 PM
Well if the Doctor's last name really is "who" can we guess what the first name might be?





I've had an afterthought on this too and I know this is probably stretching things a bit but could Romana be the Doctor's long lost wife?

gateship15
September 21st, 2009, 08:26 PM
we could guess it. she could be anything could happen in the world of doctor who and he did say he had a child so who knows if its possible :)

hawkmajor
September 22nd, 2009, 09:59 AM
we could guess it. she could be anything could happen in the world of doctor who and he did say he had a child so who knows if its possible :)
i like the idea...

gateship15
September 22nd, 2009, 05:38 PM
me to :) it is soo possible since she did be a companion to the doctor for a while there and they did get close.

hawkmajor
September 23rd, 2009, 09:10 AM
me to :) it is soo possible since she did be a companion to the doctor for a while there and they did get close.
i cant see that happening now though...

Mr Prophet
September 23rd, 2009, 09:30 AM
The Doctor's family predates the classic series. His first companion is his granddaughter.

hawkmajor
September 23rd, 2009, 09:34 AM
The Doctor's family predates the classic series. His first companion is his granddaughter.
any ideas on her full name?

Mr Prophet
September 23rd, 2009, 10:57 AM
any ideas on her full name?

The only name is Susan Foreman, which is presumably an alias adopted so that she could attend Coal Hill School. Other than that, it's all mystery all the way. I know the Virgin books had their own ideas (in which Susan was the granddaughter of the Other, of whom the Doctor is a techno-enabled reincarnation), but still no names. It's how the Doctor rolls.

hawkmajor
September 23rd, 2009, 12:51 PM
The only name is Susan Foreman, which is presumably an alias adopted so that she could attend Coal Hill School. Other than that, it's all mystery all the way. I know the Virgin books had their own ideas (in which Susan was the granddaughter of the Other, of whom the Doctor is a techno-enabled reincarnation), but still no names. It's how the Doctor rolls.
yes it is... one day a begger, the next the king of belgum

gateship15
September 23rd, 2009, 04:50 PM
hmm interesting. in the books i read about the classic serious they said they didn't know if susan was his real grand daughter. i guess we may never know his real know all we do know is he told River Song it. it may have been out of friendship, love or since he knew she was going to die he gave it to her so she can get past him's trust who knows we just know he has one.

Mr Prophet
September 23rd, 2009, 10:27 PM
hmm interesting. in the books i read about the classic serious they said they didn't know if susan was his real grand daughter. i guess we may never know his real know all we do know is he told River Song it. it may have been out of friendship, love or since he knew she was going to die he gave it to her so she can get past him's trust who knows we just know he has one.

I choose to think that the 'one reason' he'd tell someone his name is that she saw him die for the last time. In fact, I have a theory that he died the first time she ever met him, then met a younger - but still post-Silence in the Library - version, whom she travelled with for a while, then kept in touch after she left the TARDIS.

What a lot of Doctor/River shippers seem not to take into account is that, if they did get married, they're obviously separated by that point in River's history, however amicably, so it clearly wasn't the big happy ever after.

gateship15
September 24th, 2009, 03:31 AM
interesting prospective i like it. something to think about

hawkmajor
September 24th, 2009, 11:19 AM
interesting prospective i like it. something to think about
yeah great... nice theory, took me some time to understand it but good

gateship15
September 25th, 2009, 05:21 AM
same but once u do understand it great theory

Zarius
September 30th, 2009, 09:21 PM
The only name is Susan Foreman, which is presumably an alias adopted so that she could attend Coal Hill School. Other than that, it's all mystery all the way. I know the Virgin books had their own ideas (in which Susan was the granddaughter of the Other, of whom the Doctor is a techno-enabled reincarnation), but still no names. It's how the Doctor rolls.

The Virgin books are not in any shape or form canon anymore.

gateship15
October 1st, 2009, 10:04 PM
oo ok

animallover
October 7th, 2009, 03:07 PM
another great epi!

gateship15
October 8th, 2009, 02:48 AM
i agree with u

PMN1
December 27th, 2009, 01:57 AM
if i remember correctly she meets him for the first time when he is his future self then after being with him for some time calls the past self by mistake. i can't wait to see her travel with the doctor and see if they were just friends or more then that.

On the other hand, she recognised the David Tennant version as being 'her' Doctor. The writers were probably not thinking too much about regeneration at this time but it does open up some interesting possibilities.

gateship15
December 28th, 2009, 01:34 AM
lol true they most prob didn't think he would leave so early and he would have to change. but it does leave it open to some interesting possibilities

mi_guard
September 12th, 2011, 01:02 AM
I loved Donna's line: "Wait no, just— Hang on. This isn't the real me. This isn't my body. But I've been dieting!"

If she only had known that before :D

Coco Pops
September 12th, 2011, 07:20 AM
I loved Donna's line: "Wait no, just— Hang on. This isn't the real me. This isn't my body. But I've been dieting!"

If she only had known that before :D

What?

What?

Is that line in this episode? Where does Donna say that?

mi_guard
September 12th, 2011, 09:36 AM
What?

What?

Is that line in this episode? Where does Donna say that?

yes, that's when Ms Evangelista (the lady in black) talks to her at the children's playground, and Donna realizes that her life there and here children aren't real, that she's only a projection, and she realizes that therefore she wouldn't have had to diet at all :D :lol: love that that was the first thought she had :)

mi_guard
September 15th, 2011, 02:25 PM
"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I liked, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor and you're in the biggest library in the Universe. Look me up."

don't make the Doctor angry!

Coco Pops
September 15th, 2011, 05:42 PM
"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I liked, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor and you're in the biggest library in the Universe. Look me up."

don't make the Doctor angry!

More don't make this version of the Doctor angry.... 10 had some serious arrogance. Mind you I like a Doctor that has a bit of that.

VengefulSpud
September 15th, 2011, 06:31 PM
More don't make this version of the Doctor angry.... 10 had some serious arrogance. Mind you I like a Doctor that has a bit of that.

To be honest its kinda what I miss about the Doctor, I don't see it as much in Smith. Sure you remember David's first proper episode "New Earth" ?

"You want to take this to a higher authority, well there is none. It stops with me !"

Gave me the chills that did !

aintright
September 22nd, 2011, 10:23 AM
This has to be one of my all time fave eps!!! it jarred me to the core.

I could have strangled Moffat for the scene when Lee is 'bout to be beamed off and he sees Donna and then the stutter ... i was ... well .... angst!!! OH MY!!!

love the scene where Donna and the Dr. are discussing if they are alright .... is alright really doctor language for not alright ... to paraphrase!! it was brilliant ... and then he takes her hand.

*sigh* i miss tennant!!

his face when he knows he can save River!!!

and Alex ... she is a amazing as River!! i want much more of her.


teehee!!:jack_new15:


moffat = brilliant love to hate

Cold Fuzz
November 8th, 2011, 06:20 PM
I just finished watching Silence in the Library & Forest of the Dead for the first time in a long while. Watching this again, especially after having seen everything that happens in series 5 & 6, has made me appreciate her character in new ways.

When I first watched this episode, it was more along the POV of the Tenth Doctor, who didn't know her yet--and neither did the audience.

But now, having seen River and her backstory brought to the foreground in future seasons, her heartbreak at the Doctor not recognizing her in this two-parter really comes off as genuine to me. I think Alex Kingston did a fantastic job.

And that last sequence, when the Doctor finds out how to save her, everything was just brilliant: The acting, the shots, and especially the music. Absolutely brilliant. :D

Morgania
December 3rd, 2011, 05:34 PM
One of my favourite episodes.

Coco Pops
October 14th, 2012, 01:25 AM
Was any one else reminded of the timelord matrix?

There was an awful lot of similarity's between the libary data core and that particular piece of collective timelord knowledge.

As for his name he said "only one time I could (tell anyone)". There are two things that people can only do once in their life, be born, and die (physical condition before regeneration not counted). Since she never seen him any younger; and I doubt he would write his name on a tomb for the universe to see; she must have been with him at the end of his last regeneration.

In conclusion his name is Earl.



Why would it matter? He is dead why would it matter if his name is on a tomb?

And I personally think he told her just before heading for the singing towers as that was in my imagination a one way mission and he possibly died there alone..

Girlbot
December 10th, 2012, 09:16 AM
One of my favorite episodes

maneth
May 3rd, 2013, 08:51 AM
"Don't play games with me. You just killed someone I liked, that is not a safe place to stand. I'm the Doctor and you're in the biggest library in the Universe. Look me up."

don't make the Doctor angry!

My favorite line of this episode. The 10th Doctor is really growing on me, I didn't like him at first, as I felt he was too silly. The arrogance I can live with. Very good double parter, and I can't wait to see more of River Song...