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GateWorld
April 23rd, 2008, 10:08 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s4/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/408.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border:1px solid #000;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO SERIES 30</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s4/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">SILENCE IN THE LIBRARY</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 3008</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
The Doctor and Donna find the largest library in the universe empty, and a group of explorers led by a woman with an inexplicable familiarity with the Doctor.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s4/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Madeleine
May 31st, 2008, 12:07 PM
I was almost scared of looking forward to this one because SM's previous three stories had been so brilliant that I was almost certain to be disappointed. From what i've just seen it turns out I needn't have worried: even if it's not as good as the others (that *is* an if - I won't know till it's concluded) it can be his worst to date and still be amazing.

The concept is a neat one. Shadows - urgh, I have one of them! I can't avoid it like I could the stone statues, or venetian masks or gas masks :o

I liked Miss Evangelista and Other Dave, and I'm very intrigued by River Song. I suppose that's the idea. I wonder if she'll be a proper actual companion ever?

The stuff with the little girl is just weird. The little actor impressed, especially when she was told that reality was not real and her nightmare was. That Doctor Moon - is he a part of her psyche, or does he come from somewhere else, part of the library or something?

The concept of ghosting is well creepy. Like Donna said, really horrible. So sad. But a pretty effective way of making the suited swarm even creepier.

Some nice touches here and there. Another 'little shop' :) ... Big wave at fandom: NO SPOILERS :D ... DonnaDoctor's synchronised contract-ripping :cool: ... "I'm a time traveller, I point and laugh at archaeologists" :p ... The "this has been filtered for decency" rider to the final message - "for god's sake run" was probably a paraphrasing of, er, something else ;)

My offspring are refusing to let me leave the room next to theirs and go downstairs, in case a skeleton in a space suit comes to get them. I've had to let them go to sleep with the light on for the first time ever.

Iratus
May 31st, 2008, 12:18 PM
I really enjoyed that episode, creatures that live in shadows and eat anything is just great. I wonder is River Song will be a companion for next season or i think she is actually...
Capitan Jack or Martha Jones because in the trailer for next weeks episode she said they have been to the end of the universe together.

lirenel
May 31st, 2008, 12:52 PM
I really enjoyed that episode, creatures that live in shadows and eat anything is just great. I wonder is River Song will be a companion for next season or i think she is actually...
Capitan Jack or Martha Jones because in the trailer for next weeks episode she said they have been to the end of the universe together.

Yah, but wouldn't she then:recognize Donna? Because Martha has met Donna and I'm willing to bet Jack knows something about her.

I like River Song. It'll be interesting to see who she turns out to be. Did she grab the Doctor's hand when running? I thought I saw that for a moment. She seems to know the Doctor very well, especially if he's giving her a sonic screwdriver, and she obviously was crushed when he didn't recognize her. Of course, the fact that she knows the Doctor when he looks physically older is interesting too, not sure what to think of that.

I haven't read any spoilers (heh) for future episodes, but I don't think Donna is a face forever. Ms. Song seems to know of Donna, and she looked confused more than anything else when she saw face-Donna. Maybe it means that Ms. Song has heard that something different happened to her.

Alipeeps
May 31st, 2008, 01:07 PM
Steffan Moffatt is god. That is all. :D

This episode was brilliant - not as out adn out spooky as Blink but with a real sense of tension to it and SOOOO many questions left unanswered! What has happened to Donna? HOw does The Girl connect to the Library? Just who the hell is River Song and what is her connection to the Doctor? (D'you know during the scene where Donna was asking her about that and River explained she knows the Doctor from the future, the shot was of the two of them together and the camera angle made me think that they actually quite resembled each other (not exactly, obviously, but in terms of face shape and length of nose etc) and I even wondered if River was some future version of Donna! :lol:) Yup, I'm that caught up in trying to work out what the hell is going on that I've moved onto crack theories! :D

Love the idea of the Vashta Narada and that there *is* something to be afraid of in the dark. If you stop and think about it, the idea that the dust motes you see in sunbeams are really tiny hungry killer creatures and that if enough of them swarm they could eat you, is freaking FREAKY!!! :S :D

Great chemistry between DAvid and Alex and generally a good supporting cast in this episode - the little girl was good too. I find the idea of a palnet-wide library fascinating and the further idea of that library being utterly silent and deserted is eerily spooky.

I can't WAIT for next week! :D

Frontastic
May 31st, 2008, 02:31 PM
For some reason I really wasn't looking forward to this one. But how wrong I was, its brilliant! The last minutes reminded me of Event Horizon, one of few movies that still creeps me out when I see it. Acting, superb as ever. Oh, River Song, I love this plot, its the only one so far where I really have no idea where its going to go! And I'm guessing her book is meant to look like the TARDIS. One thing that did come to me. Remember what the Ood said at the end of Planet of the Ood, "your song will end soon", anyone think there could be a link there?
Anyway I can't wait for next weeks!

Matt G
May 31st, 2008, 02:38 PM
Well this was a mind-bender.

1. Dr Moon is clearly the main bad guy here. He's somehow set up a psychic link beteen a 21st century kid and a 51st century planet-wide library and using it for hell knows what purpose and his ID is the biggest unanswered question at this point.

2. River Song is certainly plausible but I can't see her as being an older version of a known companion.

3. The Vashta Narada is certainly a creepy idea, particularly comboed with the ghosting Dave.

4. "Donna Noble has been saved" Saved = ?

Very wierd stuff - I want to see the payoff!

Reefgirl
May 31st, 2008, 02:47 PM
I was worried that I wouldn't like this episode, even though it's been written by SM, thank God I was wrong this is fantastic, real edge of the seat stuff, like everyone else I'm a little frustrated about the cliffhangers but in a good way
What happened to Donna

Who is River Song
She's got some connection to either with Rose, Romana or Capt Jack or all 3, or a manifestation of the Tardis, ATM I'm leaning towards Jack
What has the little girl got to do with all this

Who is Dr Moon
Apart from being a collegue of 007 I think he's been sent back in time to help the Doctor with the Vashta Narada via the little girl

How the hell does River Song know the Doctor from the future? Is she a timetraveller, did I miss a bit of conversation, or
Is she a member of the Time Agency? which brings us back to River and Jack having a connection

I wish Steve Pemberton had a bit more of a part and Miss Evangelista had 'Red Shirt' written all over her

How spooky is that 'Ghosting' thing?

All in all this has been the best so far and like all of SM's stories it's edge of the seat, behind the cushion stuff.

The only whinge I have got is, the evil alien skeleton in the space suit looks like The Stig's Boney Cousin

Alipeeps
May 31st, 2008, 02:47 PM
See I keep thinking of word saved as in digitally stored, like on a computer. Like all the people in the library when it all went wrong - and now Donna - have been somehow stored somewhere, in like data form, to keep them safe from the Vashta Narada?



The only whinge I have got is, the evil alien skeleton in the space suit looks like The Stig's Boney Cousin

BWAH!!!! :lol:

Reefgirl
May 31st, 2008, 02:53 PM
See I keep thinking of word saved as in digitally stored, like on a computer. Like all the people in the library when it all went wrong - and now Donna - have been somehow stored somewhere, in like data form, to keep them safe from the Vashta Narada?



BWAH!!!! :lol:
Some say he's a swarm of flesh eating shadows, and that he can wash down a meal of two 'Red Shirts' with two litres of rocket fuel, he's not The Stig but he is The Stig's Boney Cousin

dosed150
May 31st, 2008, 03:42 PM
the link between river and the doctor isnt it possible theyve met in her past but its the doctors future so say she met the doctor 10 years before this episode, but he doesnt travel to that point in time till say 30 years after this episode

the bit at the beginning about being terrible at not showing spoilers is that meant to be a joke about how there always seem to be leaks about doctor who in the media

lirenel
May 31st, 2008, 03:47 PM
See I keep thinking of word saved as in digitally stored, like on a computer. Like all the people in the library when it all went wrong - and now Donna - have been somehow stored somewhere, in like data form, to keep them safe from the Vashta Narada?



Oh, that actually makes a lot of sense, I like that. And maybe that's why Donna disappeared when she was being transported, because she was already 'data' in a sense being sent over the transporter and the Library (the Girl?) just transfered the data to storage.

Did Dr. Moon remind anyone else of Morpheus from the Matrix? The whole 'Your reality is not real' thing and all.

Anyway, my new theory is this: the Girl is actually the Library, or maybe the Library's computer core, but when the Vash ta' Narada invaded and the Computer 'saved' the data of all the people, she overloaded or something and some of her 'memory' got wiped. 'The Girl' is the computer conscious stuck in a virtual scenario. Dr. Moon is a program that started running when Dr. Song and her team broke through the shields, kinda like a backup system to bring the computer conscious fully back online.

I don't know, is that plausible?

Naonak
May 31st, 2008, 03:59 PM
Steven Moffat's too bloody clever for his own good... :p

Not as good as Blink, but possibly his second best ep so far IMO (although it's been a while since I've seen The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances). He did another of making something so ordinary (first statues, now shadows and freaking dust...) into such an effective and creepifying monster.

My theory on the little girl is that her world really isn't real, and it's just some kind of program in the Library's computer.

River Song said that this was the youngest version of the Doctor she'd met, so I don't think it's somebody we already know. Odds are it's gonna be pretty huge, though. She's... his wife, or something... :p Hey, that actually fits with the X on the psychic paper, and calling him Sweetie and stuff.

Having a biography of the Doctor right there is just... unnerving.

Nice little trick in the trailer for next week, not showing any clips of Donna... ;)

EDIT:
Anyway, my new theory is this: the Girl is actually the Library, or maybe the Library's computer core, but when the Vash ta' Narada invaded and the Computer 'saved' the data of all the people, she overloaded or something and some of her 'memory' got wiped. 'The Girl' is the computer conscious stuck in a virtual scenario. Dr. Moon is a program that started running when Dr. Song and her team broke through the shields, kinda like a backup system to bring the computer conscious fully back online.

I don't know, is that plausible?
Totally. :D

Gregorius
May 31st, 2008, 04:02 PM
See I keep thinking of word saved as in digitally stored, like on a computer. Like all the people in the library when it all went wrong - and now Donna - have been somehow stored somewhere, in like data form, to keep them safe from the Vashta Narada?

That was my first guess the moment I read that message and heard no survivors were found. And Donna was being transported, so she had been stored in the system so her molecules could be reassembled in the Tardis, but she got saved by the girl.

So my idea is that the girl, Doctor Moon, etc... are the 4022 people that were saved and stored as VR images, with their moleculair coding inside the database of the library (Biggest harddrive in the universe, as the Doctor said), and living there as normal people, never aging but over time forgetting who they are and what they should be doing.

Anyway, good episode and I can't wait until next week.

padr49904
May 31st, 2008, 04:24 PM
OMG I'm so mad I flipped to the channel right after it went off, literally like 10 seconds later.

Anyone post a full review for me? Please

Reefgirl
May 31st, 2008, 04:26 PM
Having now seen Confidential, I'm wondering if the Little Girl and River are connected? It was the way she called the Doctor, Sweetie and then the Little Girl's father calling her Sweetie.

The Little Girl/Library Computer Core theory is plausible but IMO I think it's all got something to do with the Tardis

If the Little Girl is the library or the computer, is Dr Moon the Vashta Narada?

pbellosom
May 31st, 2008, 04:42 PM
The concept is a neat one. Shadows - urgh, I have one of them! I can't avoid it like I could the stone statues, or venetian masks or gas masks :o

ROFL.




and I'm very intrigued by River Song. I suppose that's the idea. I wonder if she'll be a proper actual companion ever?


I can't help wondering, did Moffat know that he would become show runner at this point? Has he even now begun setting up threads for his tenure?

Well this was a mind-bender.

1. Dr Moon is clearly the main bad guy here. He's somehow set up a psychic link beteen a 21st century kid and a 51st century planet-wide library and using it for hell knows what purpose and his ID is the biggest unanswered question at this point.


Nah it seems to me that Dr Moon is the actual computer core's personality like Lirenal speculated. I am fairly certain that the people's "ghosts" have been stored inside a Matrix-esque virtual reality and the girl is in there.

jonno
May 31st, 2008, 05:16 PM
... "I'm a time traveller, I point and laugh at archaeologists" :p ...

Hehe - I told that line to my archeologist friend and big doctor fan who missed it today. She was NOT happy :p

Tracy Jane
May 31st, 2008, 07:15 PM
RE the identity of River Song / Planet of the Ood

Firstly, I think it quite likely that the "song" that is going to end, referenced in Planet of the Ood is River Song. We know that Tennant is back for more, so it can't be his song or regeneration. And the idea of River Song being the song does sound perfect.

Secondly, with regards to her identity. Someone mentioned a human manifestation of the TARDIS. Firstly, we've heard of this before in who, so it's not an entirely new concept. Secondly, who else would the Doctor trust with his screwdriver? Thirdly, did you notice the book? The book even looked like the TARDIS. We're assuming it's the Doctor's book, but what if it's River's book and looks like the TARDIS because she is? And, of course, the TARDIS was present in Utopia.

The other theory that I've read and I really like is the idea that River Song is actually a villain who is manipulating the Doctor. She's keeping him away from the book so that the truth won't be revealed, and manipulates him with these "memories" which conveniantly happen in the future. She's actually using him to get to the core and to CAL, so that she can harness the library's power.


I think whatever the outcome, it's not going to be as clean cut as the trailers and the tabloid spoilers make out. I'll be incredibly disappointed if it is.

ShadowMaat
May 31st, 2008, 09:38 PM
My thoughts, let me show you them:

1. KILLER SHADOWS!! W00T!! *pwns everyone* :P
2. The people "saved" are almost certainly saved in the computer system, and I'm betting Donna isn't the only live face in there.
3. Dr. Moon definitely had a Morpheus vibe to him and I think that's meant to emphasize the fact that the "reality" around her isn't the real one... although I bet all the people in her world are "saved" people. She herself may be a saved person with the computer mind projected into it. Sort of.
4. Gotta say, it's kinda cool to meet a little girl who ISN'T a hideous monster. So far. :D I like her lots.
5. River Song rocks the casbah. I just hope she lives or I will have to kill SM multiple times.
6. Of course, even if she DOES die we'll still hopefully get to meet her again in the future.
7. SPOILERS! LMAO!
8. Proper Dave and Other Dave. LOL!
9. I am deeply ashamed of myself because Obnoxious Twit kept reminding me of McKay. *sigh* I blame this on me not having seen SGA (and thus McKay) for a long while and also on me knowing DH is a Whovian.
10. Loved the li'l shop. Loved Donna trying to stop and gawk.
11. HOLY SCOOBY DOO FLASHBACKS, BATMAN!! (http://mantiseye.com/img/gallery/sargasso/scooby01sm.jpg) Seriously. Kept weirding me out.
12. River Song better not die. And I hope the Doctor resists the urge to peek at the spoilers. RESIST THEM, DOCTOR!
13. Whoever she is, we'd better meet her again before DT leaves because she knows that face.
14. The intervening week is going to suck bilge. WHY ISN'T IT SATURDAY ALREADY AGAIN?!

EDIT:

15. Also, I didn't get an evil vibe off Moon. I thought he was trying to help her. Toss her a breadcrumb sorta thing.

EDIT 2:

16. What are thoughts on River knowing about Donna? Just the generic sort of Doctor-talking-of-former-Companions stuff or something specific? I almost expected her to say something about Donna having something on her back. ;)

Gate-builder
June 1st, 2008, 01:10 AM
Awesome episode! Can't wait for next week! Did I see the Doctor going through the vortex with the sonic screwdriver in the preview? I hope we get a glimpse of what is inside that book that looks like the TARDIS as well.

The_Carpenter
June 1st, 2008, 01:47 AM
Awesome episode! Can't wait for next week! Did I see the Doctor going through the vortex with the sonic screwdriver in the preview? I hope we get a glimpse of what is inside that book that looks like the TARDIS as well.
well

from what I've heard, Donna reads a book and finds out about her future children, she also reads something in a book about Rose returning...

pbellosom
June 1st, 2008, 02:22 AM
4. Gotta say, it's kinda cool to meet a little girl who ISN'T a hideous monster. So far. :D I like her lots.


As soon as she appeared my siblings started screaming "She's evil!!" at the TV

Pitry
June 1st, 2008, 02:35 AM
That was my first guess the moment I read that message and heard no survivors were found. And Donna was being transported, so she had been stored in the system so her molecules could be reassembled in the Tardis, but she got saved by the girl.


Yeah, that's what I figured too, they can all be taken out oftheir psots as the computer and become real people again.
Anyway - bah! I shoudl have waited ti next week. I wanna know how it ends. Another brilliant installment but Steven Moffat, as usual. Creepy and funny and silly and spoilers! ha!
As for River Song, I find it more likely to believe it's gonna end up in a paradox and she'll end up dead and that future - whatever it is - will never happen...

Reefgirl
June 1st, 2008, 02:42 AM
RE the identity of River Song / Planet of the Ood

Firstly, I think it quite likely that the "song" that is going to end, referenced in Planet of the Ood is River Song. We know that Tennant is back for more, so it can't be his song or regeneration. And the idea of River Song being the song does sound perfect.

Secondly, with regards to her identity. Someone mentioned a human manifestation of the TARDIS. Firstly, we've heard of this before in who, so it's not an entirely new concept. Secondly, who else would the Doctor trust with his screwdriver? Thirdly, did you notice the book? The book even looked like the TARDIS. We're assuming it's the Doctor's book, but what if it's River's book and looks like the TARDIS because she is? And, of course, the TARDIS was present in Utopia.

The other theory that I've read and I really like is the idea that River Song is actually a villain who is manipulating the Doctor. She's keeping him away from the book so that the truth won't be revealed, and manipulates him with these "memories" which conveniantly happen in the future. She's actually using him to get to the core and to CAL, so that she can harness the library's power.


I think whatever the outcome, it's not going to be as clean cut as the trailers and the tabloid spoilers make out. I'll be incredibly disappointed if it is.

The Rani?

Willow'sCat
June 1st, 2008, 03:47 AM
As for River Song, I find it more likely to believe it's gonna end up in a paradox and she'll end up dead and that future - whatever it is - will never happen...Ooh that could work but would be a rather cheap way of getting out of it. Mind you if she appears in the future she will be older, sorry to the actress but no make up artist is that good :p so either she is to replace Donna soonish or she magically turns up in the specials and/or the next series. Any later and she can't be realistically played by the same actress in my mind. Also she seemed to be saying one of The Doctor's regenerations is now going to be older? Or seem older? :S

I seriously doubt that will be the case so could she actually be a time traveller of some sort too? A time agent springs to mind. :p Say she has encountered The Doctor as played by Hartnell or Pertwee but in another time line, one that until now this Doctor hasn't experienced... you know how tricky time travel is :p:D

My completely out there suggestion for today is that The Doctor is the Face of Boa!!! :eek: Well we really don't know if it is meant to be Jack and for it to be The Doctor makes sense in a OMG NO! kind of way. :p We know he can be with himself without the world/s ending and The Face of Boa certainly would be old. Something to ponder anyway while drunk :P

I do however like the idea that she is an enemy come to mess with his mind. Maybe The Rani. Although I would prefer someone new to us the audience, as we already have enough from the past coming to haunt him. ;)

As for the ep? Well I do like to wait to see how things work out but I am really enjoying this one, best so far this series. I watched it twice, only ep so far (this series) I have watched twice. :D;)

Alipeeps
June 1st, 2008, 04:24 AM
the bit at the beginning about being terrible at not showing spoilers is that meant to be a joke about how there always seem to be leaks about doctor who in the media

Especially this episode which, I believe, is the one the Sun got hold of a leaked script for and threatened to run a story spoiling the entire plot?


8. Proper Dave and Other Dave. LOL!


Heh. I laughed my head off at this and had to phone my mum afterwards and say, "Look! Doctor Who lives in Dave World too!" :D (My mum and I live in Dave World, whereby nearly everyone we meet/know is called Dave - my hubby is Dave, her boyfriend is Dave, my ex is Dave, my neighbour is Dave, the landlord at her local pub is Dave etc etc etc etc etc!! So we have to give prefixes to our Daves to (e.g. the ex is Dim Dave! :lol:) :D

Reefgirl
June 1st, 2008, 04:51 AM
Another theory as to who River Song is
The hand that picked up the Master's ring in LotTL?

Dusk
June 1st, 2008, 05:30 AM
Alex Kingston! You gorgeous ginger you. I hope she has a big part to play in the future of the series.

I agree with you all. Also, The Library World visuals were beautiful, top notch. Catherine Tate did a superb job in this one too. I was a little let down by Murray Gold's score for this episode, I had hoped for a haunting "Doctor and River" melody or a spine-tingling "Count the Shadows" arrangement.

No doubt this will be one of many fantastic stories by Steven Moffet as he takes over as executive producer of Doctor Who next year.

Tracy Jane
June 1st, 2008, 05:47 AM
Another theory as to who River Song is
The hand that picked up the Master's ring in LotTL?
LOL, have you been reading the Doctor Who Forum as well?

Klenotka
June 1st, 2008, 06:00 AM
4x08 - spoilers :D

I have to say wow. Seriously, I love this episode. It obviously works without Daleks or Cybermen, with simple "shadow".
River was from the future, obviously and knew "another" doctor. Seriously, can´t they stop doing this? It´s complicated :D I loved how Donna and the Doctor are working great together - how they ripped the contracts or how Donna kicked out the door, it was just...great :D
But who is the girl? If the Library is real, how can she dream about it? And the psychiatrist knew, or, more precisely, who is he?
Geez, whole one week of waiting!

Risem
June 1st, 2008, 06:02 AM
Brilliant episode. I got really freaked out, and the ghosting people were really disturbing.

As for being "saved" I think the original library inhabitants realised the only way to escape the shadows was to trap themselves within the transmat buffer or the library computer. I'm thinking Donna's there and perfectly fine.

Sorry if it's already been thought of...

Mr Prophet
June 1st, 2008, 07:06 AM
3. Dr. Moon definitely had a Morpheus vibe to him and I think that's meant to emphasize the fact that the "reality" around her isn't the real one... although I bet all the people in her world are "saved" people. She herself may be a saved person with the computer mind projected into it. Sort of.
4. Gotta say, it's kinda cool to meet a little girl who ISN'T a hideous monster. So far. :D I like her lots.

My theory: The little girl is CAL, some sort of - possibly damaged - central library AI or a 'saved' reader who's been roped in as understudy because CAL is knackered. The world around her is a projection and Moon is a - possibly malfunctioning - emergency protocol bashed together at the time of the initial infestation which took saved rather too literally.

Or something, but she does sound awfully computerish at the end there.



5. River Song rocks the casbah. I just hope she lives or I will have to kill SM multiple times.
6. Of course, even if she DOES die we'll still hopefully get to meet her again in the future.
...
12. River Song better not die. And I hope the Doctor resists the urge to peek at the spoilers. RESIST THEM, DOCTOR!
13. Whoever she is, we'd better meet her again before DT leaves because she knows that face.
...
16. What are thoughts on River knowing about Donna? Just the generic sort of Doctor-talking-of-former-Companions stuff or something specific? I almost expected her to say something about Donna having something on her back. ;)

Thoughts on River Song:

River Song will be important to the Doctor, but the reason she got the sonic is that he knows she'll need it now. The reason he keeps showing up in her life, as recorded in her journal of their encounters, is that he knows exactly when to come to her to help her save worlds. He knows because - and I hate myself for coming up with this - she'll give him the book when Vashta Narada eats her/she chooses to sacrifice herself to become the new custodian of the Library.

I only hope we don't get all of that swept away in a quick montage of the Doctor dropping in on exciting digs at the end of the episode, but get to see her recur a couple of times next season.

I love the fact that the Doctor clearly stops going on about Rose at some point and starts telling people about Donna instead. I hate the implication that something big and pathos-laden happens to her.

Reefgirl
June 1st, 2008, 07:44 AM
LOL, have you been reading the Doctor Who Forum as well?
No, at the end of series 3 there were a lot of theories about who the hand belonged to
The Rani and Lucy Saxon being 2 that came to mind immediatly
River is just another name along with
Romana


<Snip for length>I love the fact that the Doctor clearly stops going on about Rose at some point and starts telling people about Donna instead. I hate the implication that something big and pathos-laden happens to her.
It's been a while since Adric so we're due for a shocking companion exit

ShadowMaat
June 1st, 2008, 09:25 AM
My theory: The little girl is CAL, some sort of - possibly damaged - central library AI or a 'saved' reader who's been roped in as understudy because CAL is knackered.
Yes, yes, yes. Was definitely heading towards the HAL CAL-girl conclusion.


River Song will be important to the Doctor, but the reason she got the sonic is that he knows she'll need it now. The reason he keeps showing up in her life, as recorded in her journal of their encounters, is that he knows exactly when to come to her to help her save worlds. He knows because - and I hate myself for coming up with this - she'll give him the book when Vashta Narada eats her/she chooses to sacrifice herself to become the new custodian of the Library.
Hmm. Interesting and unpleasantly possible solution. But while it makes it all very tidy it also smacks a little too heavily of Girl in the Fireplace for me.

And for those worried about paradox, it wouldn't happen. Wibbly-wobbly, remember? Her life might be a straight line (leaving out for the moment all the time travel she'll do) but even if this is the end of her piece of string, there's still a whole bit of string left for the Doctor to bounce around, encountering her. Um, right?

I'm a bit curious about the whole "look how young you are" stuff. Obviously some of it was personality-wise since at one point she was talking about the look in his eyes, but undoubtedly it's physical as well. Please tell me that this doesn't mean we're going to be stuck with DT long enough to see him age and that instead it means some future regenerations might skew a bit older. Nothing against DT I love him to pieces, but I'd kinda like a regeneration in the next few years, too. Preferably sooner rather than later before more people become even more irreversibly ingrained into the belief that DT is the only one who can play the Doctor.

P-90_177
June 1st, 2008, 09:34 AM
I love the fact that the Doctor clearly stops going on about Rose at some point and starts telling people about Donna instead. I hate the implication that something big and pathos-laden happens to her.

Well I'm sure he hasn't. I mean she's told Donna about both Rose and Martha. So why wouldn't he tell someone else about Rose, Martha and Donna?

Madeleine
June 1st, 2008, 10:16 AM
Because he never told Rose about Sarah Jane? I don't know, maybe that experience was what started him telling companions about their predecessors. I hope so, because it'd be a better scenario than to imagine that Rose was so special that she merits what none of the others did. (I think he told Donna about Martha because he wanted to, although there remains the not too pleasing possibility that he only did it because he knew they were going to pay Martha a visit.)

Alipeeps
June 1st, 2008, 11:34 AM
I'm a bit curious about the whole "look how young you are" stuff. Obviously some of it was personality-wise since at one point she was talking about the look in his eyes, but undoubtedly it's physical as well. Please tell me that this doesn't mean we're going to be stuck with DT long enough to see him age and that instead it means some future regenerations might skew a bit older. Nothing against DT I love him to pieces, but I'd kinda like a regeneration in the next few years, too. Preferably sooner rather than later before more people become even more irreversibly ingrained into the belief that DT is the only one who can play the Doctor.

Well I just rewatched the ep and in that scene where she says he looks young, he says, "I'm really not, you know", she replies, "No you are. Look at your eyes!" I don't think she was ever talking about him looking physically younger (if she'd met him before when he looked physically older, she'd immediately know/recognise that he looked younger, she wouldn't need to work that out). She's talking about younger in age, in experience, not in physical looks. So I don't think we're ever looking at seeing a Doctor looking older. Also, in previous episodes the Doctor has mentioned (in School Reunion, I think?) "I don't age, I regenerate" and the Master referenced in The Last of the Time Lords how Time Lords don't show their age physically. So I kind of get the impression that they never really physically age within their incarnations (another reason why realistically the show *has* to have a regeneration every so often - the Doctor might not age but the actors do! :lol:)


Because he never told Rose about Sarah Jane? I don't know, maybe that experience was what started him telling companions about their predecessors. I hope so, because it'd be a better scenario than to imagine that Rose was so special that she merits what none of the others did. (I think he told Donna about Martha because he wanted to, although there remains the not too pleasing possibility that he only did it because he knew they were going to pay Martha a visit.)

But he told Donna about Martha right at the start in Partners in Crime, before he knew they would be meeting up with Martha.

Pitry
June 1st, 2008, 12:12 PM
Because he never told Rose about Sarah Jane? I don't know, maybe that experience was what started him telling companions about their predecessors. I hope so, because it'd be a better scenario than to imagine that Rose was so special that she merits what none of the others did. (I think he told Donna about Martha because he wanted to, although there remains the not too pleasing possibility that he only did it because he knew they were going to pay Martha a visit.)

It could be related to trauma - he lost Rose in a traumatic experience, he feels very guilty about Martha, and the look River Song gave Donna when she recognised the name isn't a very positive sign, either.

Then again, we would have expected him to mention Adric by now...

Trek_Girl42
June 1st, 2008, 01:03 PM
Steven Moffat is god. :D

So the official recipe for a Steven Moffat episode would be: "Romanticized Element From The Past" + "Something Very Here And Now" + "Creepy Factor" = "Brilliant Doctor Who Episode"

The thing that makes him that much better is how in touch with the audience is (not necessarily Doctor Who's audience, but audiences in general). He knows exactly what we're thinking. "SPOILERS", the "are the books alive" bit at the beginning, having River Song call The Doctor "pretty boy", actually showing the Red Shirt as indeed being a stupid person, etc.

River Song is the best new character.....ever. From the moment she took her helmet off and introduced herself I absolutely loved her- and when she told the other guy to put his back on. :lol:

The TARDIS notebook was very cute. I want one. And I want the spoilers(spoilers! :D).

The ghosting was creepy and sad. The dust motes thing was REALLY creepy. What's that that Steven Moffat has made us frightened of now? Gas Masks, Clockwork People/Things under the bed, Statues, and Dust Motes. :P The Donna face, again with the creepy. And the skull in the helmet.

And the little girl actress was very good, and agreement on Dr. Moon being very Morpheus-like. And books flying off the shelves!!! :D

I really want to know how all this fits together, kinda now! :P

ShadowMaat
June 1st, 2008, 01:42 PM
I dunno, I'm still partial to Sally Sparrow, but River Song is pretty awesome, too. Part of it, I think, is that it's just too cool to meet someone who's more in the know than the Doctor about something- particularly when the "something" is the Doctor himself! LOL!

RogueSeven
June 1st, 2008, 01:49 PM
great ep, this show never ceases to amaze

Trek_Girl42
June 1st, 2008, 02:10 PM
I dunno, I'm still partial to Sally Sparrow, but River Song is pretty awesome, too. Part of it, I think, is that it's just too cool to meet someone who's more in the know than the Doctor about something- particularly when the "something" is the Doctor himself! LOL!Sally Sparrow just had to be brought up. Now I will be wrestling with this question for.....awhile. :P

The thing that has me worried is that Steven Moffat is so good at creating/introducing instantly likable new characters, that we might very well be overwhelmed by constant awesome when the next season airs. Can we handle it? :P

ShadowMaat
June 1st, 2008, 03:52 PM
My head may very well explode from squee in the next season, whenever it is.

Bray
June 2nd, 2008, 02:00 AM
WOW! What a genius making a monster that you can't see and can be in absolutely any shadow! What a dhilling thought!

Remember if you want to live count the shadows!

Can't wait for next weeks episode.

Also thank god for the iPlayer! I work most Saturday nights and the iPlayer is just so awesome....if only sky would do one like it....oh wait they have...but they expect me to pay for it....I mean it's not like I'm already paying £40+ a month for what I already get!

/rant

Back on topic....yeah the doctor in the vortex with the sonic screwdriver....I wonder how and why?!?!

Alipeeps
June 2nd, 2008, 02:24 AM
Back on topic....yeah the doctor in the vortex with the sonic screwdriver....I wonder how and why?!?!

Is that the vortex though? I wondered if that scene is the Doctor going to find Donna... like maybe he works out that the "saved" people are saved digitally, through the transmat things and he transmats himself and uses the sonic screwdriver to track the signal through the transmat beam to the source? Or something? *speculates wildly* :D

The_Carpenter
June 2nd, 2008, 02:59 AM
Is that the vortex though? I wondered if that scene is the Doctor going to find Donna... like maybe he works out that the "saved" people are saved digitally, through the transmat things and he transmats himself and uses the sonic screwdriver to track the signal through the transmat beam to the source? Or something? *speculates wildly* :D
thats my thought as well :)

AvatarIII
June 2nd, 2008, 03:49 AM
oh my glorb that was the awesomest episode EVER!!! better than blink!. and the doctors diary :eek: how cool, i wonder if she will be the companion after donna :eek: so well written, and the concept was amazing :eek: loveitloveitloveit

Bray
June 2nd, 2008, 07:14 AM
oh my glorb that was the awesomest episode EVER!!! better than blink!. and the doctors diary :eek: how cool, i wonder if she will be the companion after donna :eek: so well written, and the concept was amazing :eek: loveitloveitloveit

Oooh I don't know...blink was possibly the best ep ever...I mean statues :eek: but this is damned close...I think the second part may just seal the deal for the most awesome episode ever award!

I hadn't thought about it not being the vortex...but that does sound like a reasonable guess. hmmmm so many questions....I may just hibernate until next saturday.

AvatarIII
June 2nd, 2008, 07:44 AM
Oooh I don't know...blink was possibly the best ep ever...I mean statues :eek: but this is damned close...I think the second part may just seal the deal for the most awesome episode ever award!

I hadn't thought about it not being the vortex...but that does sound like a reasonable guess. hmmmm so many questions....I may just hibernate until next saturday.

blink was good, but this is more epic, and has the doctor in it more, and i love the library, both the style and concept. and the vash narada are a brilliant idea!!!

Alipeeps
June 2nd, 2008, 07:49 AM
blink was good, but this is more epic, and has the doctor in it more, and i love the library, both the style and concept. and the vash narada are a brilliant idea!!!

It's not as spooky as Blink but it's definitely an epic episode with a fantastic setting and a brilliant concept - and a lot of tension. The thrills here are more from tension (especially as you can't see the enemy but they could be anywhere) than spookiness (e.g. when we can see the Angels have moved but Sally hasn't noticed etc).

Bray
June 2nd, 2008, 07:49 AM
Yeah I do like that you can't see the Vash Narada at all until it's too late and you have two shadows!

I still liked the blink one though, especially how all of a sudden you had 4 statues around you....but their attack was a bit rubbish if you ask me, rather than ripping you limb from limb they transported you back in time :S :D

Yeah I think the Vash Narada (Vadhda Narada whatever :p) are an awesome concept.

AvatarIII
June 2nd, 2008, 07:59 AM
Yeah I do like that you can't see the Vash Narada at all until it's too late and you have two shadows!

I still liked the blink one though, especially how all of a sudden you had 4 statues around you....but their attack was a bit rubbish if you ask me, rather than ripping you limb from limb they transported you back in time :S :D

Yeah I think the Vash Narada (Vadhda Narada whatever :p) are an awesome concept.

meh i just guessed the spelling fronm how it sounded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Doctor_Who_monsters_and_aliens#Vashta_Nerada

Bray
June 2nd, 2008, 08:39 AM
lol as did I....and the d in vadhah was meant to be an s :o lol still however it's spelt....pure awesomeness!

huntress
June 2nd, 2008, 09:01 AM
I love libraries more then anything in the world. Lock me in a big library with enough food and I can assure you I will never get bored. I love the smell of books and the smell of libraries is really one of my favourite smells in the world. So the idea of an entire world being a library really appeals to me and the FX department did a great job with that planet. The story itself? Utterly brilliant. It was spooky and kept me on the edge of the seat while Mr. Moffat took us for a ride.

I don't even know where to start. There is this girl, who thinks that the library is in her mind until the psychologist (of all people) explains to her that the world she perceives as the real world is NOT the real world but the nightmare world with the darkness is the real world and she is the only one who can save those people in the library. Who is that girl? Is she a program? A different reality? I love stories like that and that is what I loved about the original Matrix movie and only The 13th Floor.

Alex Kingston's character: Just WOWOWOW! I love the mystery surrounding her and the good doctor is decidedly spooked by her because she knows him so well and also because she has either his sonic screw driver or A sonic screw driver but the way it looks it is his screw driver. Why would he give away his screw driver? He would never do that. He needs that thing like Indiana Jones needs his whip. Was she also a companion or was she even more and where is the doctor himself? She knows Donna and something will happen to Donna - we know that now. Donna seems a tad jealous because of the affectionate way that Prof River Song (what a name) looks at him and how well she knows him (another thing that spooks him and that is why he constantly asks her "What are you to me in the future?") The other question would be: does she know him in this incarnation or in a different regenerated form? I don't know about you, but to me it looks as if she knew a different incarnation of the doctor. The way she looked at his face reminded me of the way that Sara Jane looked at him. It amused me when she called him "Pretty Boy" and the indignant look on his face. Hehe. (sorry for the messed up tenses but when it comes to the doctor and time I am never quite sure what to use : past tense, present tense, future tense?)

The enemy itself: soooo cool! The darkness itself as the enemy. Great idea ...also cheap in regards of creature making. :g: The atmosphere of the episode was spooky in some parts, all around mysterious and the story itself is just darn good. I am really looking forward to the second part. I wonder what happened to Donna and the other people who were saved. Are they maybe the girl's people? Was maybe their matrix saved in a computer and they are now part of the computer system of the library world? Last but not least the question who exactly is Prof. Song River? Stay tuned ^_^

Stephen? That was brilliant and you should write more...well you are forced to do that now anyway in the next series LOL I really, really have no worries any more regarding next series at least when it comes to story quality now the only thing I worries me is David Tennant's possible departure.

stargatefan234
June 2nd, 2008, 10:02 AM
I think she's evil, in the prievew for next episode the doctor was in the time vortex travelling "without a capusle" as he put it in Sound of Drums. I think theres nothing in that book, thats why the Doctor Can not look inside, and that she will steal the tardis, travel to another time and location (followed by the doctor) who will then get his tardis back, loose track of River and return to the libary.

heres a thought, do we know they are romantically linked, could it be a regenerated evil jenny

pbellosom
June 2nd, 2008, 10:36 AM
heres a thought, do we know they are romantically linked, could it be a regenerated evil jenny

Why would Jenny be evil?

stargatefan234
June 2nd, 2008, 10:53 AM
im sure a suitable reason could be written.

my reason is that this episode is set in the future after TDD. and waiting that long to meet the doctor again drove her insane and made her evil

ShadowMaat
June 2nd, 2008, 03:02 PM
im sure a suitable reason could be written.

my reason is that this episode is set in the future after TDD. and waiting that long to meet the doctor again drove her insane and made her evil
It's an interesting theory, but 1) If she was able/going to regenerate, wouldn't she have done it at the end of TDD? 2) She didn't seem the type who'd bother sitting around waiting for her old man to show up, she looked hyped to go on adventures of her own. 3) She's already met the Doctor at an earlier point in both of their timelines, so why would she say she's never seen him any "younger?"

Still, it could make for a good fanfic. :)

Verona
June 2nd, 2008, 09:37 PM
Not as scary as Blink by any means (IMO) but good episode. River Song well she reminded me of Bernice from the novels even without the notebook/archaeologist connection so it will be interesting to see how she plays out.

stargatefan234
June 3rd, 2008, 09:25 AM
It's an interesting theory, but 1) If she was able/going to regenerate, wouldn't she have done it at the end of TDD? 2) She didn't seem the type who'd bother sitting around waiting for her old man to show up, she looked hyped to go on adventures of her own. 3) She's already met the Doctor at an earlier point in both of their timelines, so why would she say she's never seen him any "younger?"

Still, it could make for a good fanfic. :)

But did she really die, as in DEAD, or did the terra forming device some how keep her alive, in the last scene from TDD when Jenny breathed in she expelled some of the energy from the device. suggesting it had kept her alive and hence she didn't regenrate. we've seen time lords refuse to regenerate (Last Timelord) but that took a concious will to do so, and we've seen timelords who have "died" regenrate several hours later, in the DW movie the Seventh Doctor offially died, his hearts stopped beating, and hours later he regenrated. (albiet with side effects)

jenny did not know she could regenrate, and the doctor said nothing of it, suggesting that regenration is a reflex response. however the device kept her alive at least in some small part at first to negate a regenration, and then bring her back completely later on, no regenration.

also, if whilst on her adventures jenny was killed and did regenrate, that regenration could have been unstable, hence her bieng evil and hence her wanted revenge on the doctor for what this new persona persieves as him abandoning her on the hath planet.

also this episode the doctor looks exactly the same as he did in TDD, so jenny has never seen him any younger, or equally as likely SHE IS LYING.

Now i know that "Timelords always [recognise other regenrated timelords])" but maybe she has sort of technology which negates that ability. the master was able to negate the doctors ability to sense other timelords relatively easy, why cant the same be done with his ability to recognise regenrated timelords

and thanks for saying it would make a good fanfic, i might just do it, Know any good sites to post it?

Alipeeps
June 3rd, 2008, 09:38 AM
^ To be honest, that's pretty random speculation and getting a bit off-topic for this episode discussion thread... it might be better suited to the fanfic forum! ;)

ShadowMaat
June 3rd, 2008, 09:39 AM
fanfiction.net springs to mind. And you'll still have to deal with the problem of why she doesn't at least call him "dad" at some point, since she knows he's already lived through that part of her life.

AvatarIII
June 3rd, 2008, 09:50 AM
^ To be honest, that's pretty random speculation and getting a bit off-topic for this episode discussion thread... it might be better suited to the fanfic forum! ;)

well. i did start a river song specualtion thread for exactly that sort of thing :P

Alipeeps
June 3rd, 2008, 09:54 AM
fanfiction.net springs to mind. And you'll still have to deal with the problem of why she doesn't at least call him "dad" at some point, since she knows he's already lived through that part of her life.

And the fact that River a) doesn't realise who Donna is until the Doctor mentions her name (whereas Jenny has already met Donna) and b) tells Donna that she's already met the Doctor but he hasn't met her yet.


well. i did start a river song specualtion thread for exactly that sort of thing :P

Indeed. :)

ShadowMaat
June 3rd, 2008, 11:21 AM
And the fact that River a) doesn't realise who Donna is until the Doctor mentions her name (whereas Jenny has already met Donna) and b) tells Donna that she's already met the Doctor but he hasn't met her yet.
Also good points. ;) There's so many reasons why she can't be Jenny it's a bit hard to remember (and list) them all. :P

But hey, if folks can talk about the geniusness (or lack thereof) of football stars I figure speculation on the (im)possibilities of River's identity aren't that far off the On Topic mark. :P However, since there is a thread for it that might be a better place to take it and from a fanfic-writing perspective, yeah, that's probably better in fanfic.

Me, I'm still loving the killer shadows bit. :D And I think it's funny that by wild coincidence the book I'm reading also happens to contain killer shadows.

Who wants to take bets on the "aging" of the Doctor's eyes/soul having something to do with the season finale? Or at least that'll be one of the reasons, I'm sure.

Alipeeps
June 3rd, 2008, 01:24 PM
Me, I'm still loving the killer shadows bit. :D And I think it's funny that by wild coincidence the book I'm reading also happens to contain killer shadows.


*reads repeated comments about killer shadows and loving them*

*looks at poster's name*

*has epiphany*

*runs screaming* :D

Reefgirl
June 3rd, 2008, 01:56 PM
Who wants to take bets on the "aging" of the Doctor's eyes/soul having something to do with the season finale? Or at least that'll be one of the reasons, I'm sure.

Or a reference to last series' finale

Alipeeps
June 3rd, 2008, 02:12 PM
Or a reference to last series' finale

No, cos that's already happened when River meets the Doctor in the Library and she's saying his eyes/soul/whatever looks young, younger than she's ever seen him.

Elinor
June 4th, 2008, 09:47 AM
Now that's more like it!! That's what I call a darned good Dr Who episode. It was exciting, a little bit scary and rather intriguing. Leaves you with lots of questions...who, what, where, why, when, how.....??!!! :D

I have been a bit disappointed with the show this year but this was certainly back on form.

Stephen is a writer who comes up with such brilliant and unusual ideas and I'm really looking forward to seeing what he comes up with next!

:)

Alipeeps
June 4th, 2008, 10:29 AM
The sneak peak clip for the next episode is up at the Beeb's website (UK viewers only - sorry :S) and it looks fab!! And the clip ends at an eeeeeeeevil evil evil place just as (it looks like) something important is about to be revealed!

Is it Saturday yet? Is it? Is it?!

lirenel
June 4th, 2008, 11:43 AM
The sneak peak clip for the next episode is up at the Beeb's website (UK viewers only - sorry :S) and it looks fab!! And the clip ends at an eeeeeeeevil evil evil place just as (it looks like) something important is about to be revealed!

Is it Saturday yet? Is it? Is it?!

Dah! Seriously, it needs to be Saturday and not only because that means my exams will be completely over!

Evil, evil, evil. And even worse, this will be the last episode I get to see because, hi, going back to America on the 9th.

pbellosom
June 4th, 2008, 02:04 PM
Dah! Seriously, it needs to be Saturday and not only because that means my exams will be completely over!

Evil, evil, evil. And even worse, this will be the last episode I get to see because, hi, going back to America on the 9th.

Firstly, curse you for finishing your exams long before me.

Secondly, I thought they got Doctor Who in America less than a week after us now?

Alipeeps
June 4th, 2008, 03:06 PM
Firstly, curse you for finishing your exams long before me.

Secondly, I thought they got Doctor Who in America less than a week after us now?

I think they're still 2-3 weeks behind us - when we took a week off for Eurovision (gah!) they also took a week off for Memorial Day weekend. I think it's 3 weeks behind isn't it? Cos although the series started airing 2 weeks after the UK, they started with VotD....

ShadowMaat
June 4th, 2008, 04:06 PM
We're getting Doctor's Daughter this Friday. Got nervous when I saw that Charlie Jade was on instead of SJA, but I guess SJA finished up its run here. I haven't been able to watch because of scheduling conflicts with my roomie. *sigh* Still need to work on getting cable and a TV in my room.

I'd sic the shadows on her, but then I'd have to find a new roommate and that would be SO annoying. ;)

MasySyma
June 4th, 2008, 07:36 PM
I'm facing a scheduling dilema with Who as well. I'm in America, and I'm moving from the Midwest to the East coast and will likely be without SciFi right as the 2nd half of this set airs.

(Please post lots of spoilers in the next thread!!!)

AvatarIII
June 5th, 2008, 01:45 AM
Dah! Seriously, it needs to be Saturday and not only because that means my exams will be completely over!

Evil, evil, evil. And even worse, this will be the last episode I get to see because, hi, going back to America on the 9th.

well... at least you are missing it because you are leaving the country, when i miss the ep after FotD i'll just be in a field... (music fest) then i'll have to wait until friday 20th to watch it :eek:

Alipeeps
June 5th, 2008, 05:11 AM
well... at least you are missing it because you are leaving the country, when i miss the ep after FotD i'll just be in a field... (music fest) then i'll have to wait until friday 20th to watch it :eek:

Or you could watch it online with the iPlayer?

AvatarIII
June 5th, 2008, 05:18 AM
nope.... i can't, don't have net at home, and the only net i have is at work, where i can't watch iplayer :(

pbellosom
June 5th, 2008, 08:13 AM
Well if we're all going to discuss which episodes we miss.I'm going to miss Turn Left and War on Skaro (spoilered because the title does give it all way) due to being abroad. I'm going to record them and have told my brothers that if they spoil anything I will hurt them.

Badwolf2012
June 5th, 2008, 09:37 AM
I think that what the Ood said about his song ending soon was wierd, I thought that it meant that the song was his life, and it is ending.

What if Song is going to Die in the library? I know that Rose is coming back, I've seen it in previews, and they give little clues throughout the series, if she had been cut off the show, they probably would not be able to show her on the show (like her face showing up on the monitor in the Tardis before they crashed somewhere(i can'tremember which episode) and then there is her showing up when Donna told her to tell her mother "that bin" and Just a lot. Also the Daleks will be coming back (they didn't die in the world that rose was in, so they must come through looking fior the Doctor). Also, Donna Nobel has been saved. If everyone that has been saved is living in that little girl's world. How much do you want to bet that Donna will show up in the little girl's world without her memory, and the little girl will recognize her?


I agree that maybe doctor moon might be a program that is supposed to reawaken the library computer. I agree that maybe the girl is the library computer. I think that Maybe this will be a great episode to watch "The Dead Forest"





Have a lot of fun with this guys. !!!

Badwolf2012
June 5th, 2008, 09:49 AM
Also, might I say that some of you people have absolutely no concept of how time travel and time travelers' minds work! The Doctor is in River's past/River is in the doctor's future. All part of the basic time/space relation. That is why one of the basic rules of time travel is not to pass yourself's timeline, and also, do not pass through somebody's timeline who is in your future, but you become their past. etc.

Another rule, not to hold yourself(not that way you pervs!) like if you hold your infant self (like in the episode where rose holds herself in the chuch and it causes a paradox, letting that thing in and making the tardis not be able to finish solidifying.

There are a lot of rules!

stargatefan234
June 5th, 2008, 09:56 AM
I think that what the Ood said about his song ending soon was wierd, I thought that it meant that the song was his life, and it is ending.

I agree, its just too much of a coincidence for the phrase and the character not to be related, or it could be a read hearing.

ShadowMaat
June 5th, 2008, 10:01 AM
I thought of the whole ood/Song connection, but that seems like kind of a cheap trick, IMO. Either way I guess we'll have to wait and see how it all plays out. :)

Reefgirl
June 5th, 2008, 02:21 PM
I'm going to miss this saturday's episode (It's being recorded so I'm not worried) 'cos we're going to see the Indiana Jones film

a6346
June 5th, 2008, 05:14 PM
Ok now i have thought of a strange Song Moon thing but bare with me. Could Song Moon be the Doctors daughter from a few episodes back, Now if they meet in the future again which they probably will she will most likely recognise him from that part in time (Assuming she spends more time with him which wouldn't be hard). She looks similar and has the same kind of attitude just grown up and gotten a little bit wiser so I think it could be. Any thoughts???

ShadowMaat
June 5th, 2008, 07:06 PM
If you mean River Song then yes, the idea has been mentioned/discussed in this thread. There's also a separate thread for specific discussion on who's River Song (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=55452) where the idea has also been suggested.

I think general consensus is that while it makes a good idea for a fic there are too many reasons why it isn't likely from an in-story perspective.

I still like my "River is Rose's daughter" idea, but that's best left for the insanity of the other thread. :D

Bray
June 6th, 2008, 01:07 AM
I'm going to miss this saturday's episode (It's being recorded so I'm not worried) 'cos we're going to see the Indiana Jones film

Lucky you....I'm missing it cos of work!

Thank god for the iPlayer :D

And Reefgirl....is that Chris Atkinson in your avatar?

Reefgirl
June 6th, 2008, 04:01 AM
Lucky you....I'm missing it cos of work!

Thank god for the iPlayer :D

And Reefgirl....is that Chris Atkinson in your avatar?
Yes it is, I've got a bit of a soft spot for the Subaru team, my MSN avatar is Petter Solberg

The new car is bloody horrible to look at, goes like http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/Reefgirl3/Smileys/f_bleep.gif but ugly

Bray
June 6th, 2008, 07:05 AM
The Subaru team is first in my heart along with Suzuki :D

Yeah....

*tries to thing of something good to say about the new car*

....at least it isn't as bad looking as the road version?? :p

I was amazed at how well it did in Greece, good to see Petter back on the Podium after sooo long.

Atkinson was unlucky that same rock that got him took out about 3 other people too :D

How long you been into WRC for?

(and so this post isn't totally off topic....the Vashda Narada seem evil I wonder how he will defeat them, after all he said that they have no weakness)

Reefgirl
June 6th, 2008, 09:55 AM
Spoilered for OT
The Subaru team is first in my heart along with Suzuki :D
With me it's Ford

Yeah....

*tries to thing of something good to say about the new car*

....at least it isn't as bad looking as the road version?? :p
Funny me and my other half were saying it probably won't sell as well as the WRX

I was amazed at how well it did in Greece, good to see Petter back on the Podium after sooo long.
Got a soft spot for Petter too, how can one man be so unlucky


Atkinson was unlucky that same rock that got him took out about 3 other people too :D
Didn't he hit the same rock twice or was that Jari-Matti?


How long you been into WRC for?
Since the days of Juha Kankkunen


(and so this post isn't totally off topic....the Vashda Narada seem evil I wonder how he will defeat them, after all he said that they have no weakness)
I've been thinking that there's something behind the Vashta Narada, something that's using them for it's own purpose

Bray
June 6th, 2008, 10:05 AM
Spoilers for OT :p

Ah so longer than me then :D I've only really got into it in the past two years.

I think it was Jari who hit the same one twice....although thinking about it it might not have been....hmmm I know they both hit it at least once though :D

Tell me about it, did you see Petter in Rally Sardegna? When his car just died....was it a throttle problem?? I can't remember but normally he gets all...not so much angry but at least reacts, this time he just sat there and you could see that he was so annoyed! But at least the crazy guy managed to turn it around in Greece.

I much prefer the old Impreza....but if the new one can win the races then you won't here me complaining that it's saggy arsed and not a true Impreza :D


:eek: I hadn't thought of that! That does sound like a good theory! I'd just had the assumption that they were just there, by accident or something....but come to think of it, the Doctor did say he'd never 'seen' this many on one planet.

Only 24 hours (ish) now :D

Reefgirl
June 6th, 2008, 10:34 AM
OTIt was the WTF??? look on his face that spoke more than any words, he looked so dejected.

The WRX was the only saloon on the grid, now all the cars are hatchbacks

I only thought about it after I saw the trailer on TV today

ShadowMaat
June 6th, 2008, 10:39 AM
At the risk of incurring someone's wrath, there's a whole folder dedicated to OT content where you don't have to spoiler tag stuff just to hide it from uninterested eyes. And PM works well for private convos, too.

I'm still trying to work out what River Song's story is. And figure out what the Doctor's gonna do to defeat the Vashta Narada. Maybe a giant vacuum cleaner... ;)

Bray
June 6th, 2008, 07:37 PM
*shadow incurs my wrath!*

Mailnylt because I'm drunk and it's 3.36 am....and I just got back from work...having started at 7am....and I can hear birds *crys* I want sleep!

Reefgirl
June 7th, 2008, 02:35 AM
*shadow incurs my wrath!*

Mailnylt because I'm drunk and it's 3.36 am....and I just got back from work...having started at 7am....and I can hear birds *crys* I want sleep!

Nighty night

Jonzey
June 7th, 2008, 07:23 AM
I had a crazy thought yesterday. What if
River Song is the Doctor in the future? Like the 11th Doctor or something. I mean, I hope not, but it would explain how she knows the doctor's past and future, how she has the sonic screwdriver, and how she essentially has his diary. I know there's been many a debate on whether or not the doctor can regenerate into a woman.
Either way, we'll find out tonight (hopefully).

Naonak
June 7th, 2008, 10:24 AM
I had a crazy thought yesterday. What if
River Song is the Doctor in the future? Like the 11th Doctor or something. I mean, I hope not, but it would explain how she knows the doctor's past and future, how she has the sonic screwdriver, and how she essentially has his diary. I know there's been many a debate on whether or not the doctor can regenerate into a woman.
Either way, we'll find out tonight (hopefully).
Nope - she didn't know who Donna was. :)

lirenel
June 7th, 2008, 12:42 PM
*glares at bbc iplayer* Stupid thing says that Forest of the Dead isn't available. Last time this happened I was up until 1 in the morning to watch the Unicorn and the Wasp. grrrrrrr.:mckay:

nx01a
June 8th, 2008, 08:16 AM
The Disclaimer:
I was quite terrified this episode would involve an Evil Alien Librarian of Silence, stealing people's breaths/voices or whatever. Then I remembered RTD wasn't writing it, so I felt alot better...

The Good:
>What wasn't to love?!:D
>This River Song woman... Apart from being the inimitable Alex Kingston, she's an element I can't remember seeing associated with the Doctor before [all you Whovians please correct me]. Someone who knows the Doctor intimiately, like a Watcher from Highlander or Buffy; someone who has knowledge about his future. Most importantly, someone who treats him like he treats everyone else: like they can't handle the knowledge he possesses or simply shouldn't have it.
>Her rusty sonic screwdriver! Oh, the years and monsters that thing must have survived!
>Holding hands! Sure, they were running for their lives, but Dr. Song [Dr Soong. Hmm...] grabbed the Doctor's hand and he didn't let go!
>The uncertainty about Donna's future. A bit heavy-handedly done, but it got the point across. Donna wants to travel with him forever, well, nothing lasts forever. It only depends on how bad the parting of the ways is.
>The concept of a library planet. It fits nicely into the Agatha story, and the references to a room full of wasps.:P
>Another bee reference! I do hope the Vespiforms don't launch an invasion of Earth in the finale.:P Ok. Yes I do!
>The Vashta Nerada. Wonderful concept. Literal evil Shadows. How B5! It sounded Hindu to me, and I wondered if it was an actual mythological monster, from the Bhagavad Gita or somewhere similar. I mean, the Vashta Nerada were definitely the shatterers of this world.
>Silence in the title of an episode about darkness. Blind and deaf in the midst of the knowledge of the ages, a metaphor for ignorance, perhaps on the part of Mr. Lux?
>The ghosting. I must say, that scene with the not so bright girl's skeleton were easily the most disturbing and existentially-unnerving of the series so far for me. Wonderfully done, Moffat!
>Dr. Moon. I could have sworn it was Patrick Stewart's voice at first! After hearing 'Dr. River Song', I got really suspicious about 'Dr. Moon'. When he turned the old 'it's all in your head' talk on its head, I smiled, though I knew there was something hinky about him from the name.
Dr. Moon: Now, listen. This is important. There's the real world and there's the world of nightmares. That's the way it is. You understand that?
The Girl: Yes, I know, Dr. Moon.
Dr. Moon: What I want you to remember is this, and I know it's hard. The real world is a lie and your nightmares are real. The Library is real. There are people trapped in there. People who need to be saved. The shadows are moving again. Those people are depending on you. Only you can save them. Only you.
>Mr. Lux. On a planet consumed by a living darkness? :D I'm having flashbacks of the bald man and the Ood. Big business is bad in Who, obviously.
>The girl. I wonder what her connection to the Library is? I wonder if the flesh banks have something to do with it, or if her mind is the basis for the computer system of the Library, but all will be revealed!
>The flying scenes with the girl. I'm a sucker for flying.
>The 'donated' faces! Wonderful concept. It really highlights some of the differences between human thinking of 'now' and the future. The 'edited' messages! LOL! I wonder if that was a crack at editoriall issues @ the BBC?
>Donna's face! Is that how all the other library-users were 'saved'?
>SPOILERS! Take THAT, fanboys and fan girls! Moffat got all metafictious!
>Scary 'normal' words and phrases. "Are you my mommy?" has taken on a whole new meaning for Who fans, as will "Hey! Who turned out the lights?":D The totally creepy ending with the Shadow Skeleton spouting his "Hey! Who turned out the lights?" and Donnabot spouting her 'Donna Noble has left the Library. Donna Noble has been saved." was genius.

The Bad:
>Dr. River Song: I think the character would have great potential if this were a book or book series, someone who can pop in years down the line without the concern about the actress' availability or a particular plot line. As it is now, this great concept feels to me like it'll just run until the end of the season, or into the specials next year. Everyone in the Doctor's life who isn't a villain is temporary, ephemeral, if you will. One constant person who'll pop in randomly, throw him off his guard and help him out as an equal would be great, IMO, but I feel like she'll only be around for a bit. Time IS in flux and, with New Who's capacity to inflict emotional damage on the Doctor, poor Alex might not survive and that particular future where she and the Doctor become 'close' might never happen.
>Did anyone else notice the boom mic at 19.20?:D
>I'm sad we didn't see one of Agatha's books anywhere.
>ANOTHER group of dumb space explorers?! Running through ANOTHER massive complex?! Chased by ANOTHER evil monster?! Which spouts MORE scary 'normal' words?! Sigh. next thing you know, the Doctor'll run into people who're stranded a 3 hour tour...

The Ugly:
>For once, can't complain about a thing. Even the visible boom mic was a good thing.:D

The Verdict:
>A wonderfully dark sci-fi story with a human element. I can't wait to go for a walk in the forest of the dead! I wonder if that's a reference to the Library's flesh banks?
Definitely more of the same!

ShadowMaat
June 12th, 2008, 01:21 PM
I'm kinda surprised that the BBC site doesn't have "Hey! Who turned out the lights?" as an audio download option. I was thinking of trying it out as a ringtone on my mobile. LOL! Anyone know where I might be able to snag it?

MasySyma
June 20th, 2008, 07:53 PM
Hmmm. Part 1 was ok, if a bit slow at points. I liked RiverSong, but Donna didn't have much to do this week.

It is an interesting premise, but I don't think it will pass The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances or The Girl in the Fireplace as my favorite Who episodes.

wwlh
June 21st, 2008, 12:59 PM
I'm not quite sure who Dr. River Song is...but my guess (and hope) is that she's just what she says she is...an archaeologist - but instead of digging through ruins...maybe she's digging through the Doctor's life? That's why she didn't know who Donna was on sight...but did know her name. I'm up in the air whether her look was of pity/sadness from knowing Donna's fate - or her curiousity coming up...sounded a little like she wanted to interview Donna but didn't get the chance.

I don't know...great episode...I'm trying to resist the temptation to jump ahead in the threads and see what will happen....

nx01a
June 22nd, 2008, 11:56 AM
Hmmm. Part 1 was ok, if a bit slow at points. I liked RiverSong, but Donna didn't have much to do this week.Donna may not have helped solve the problem, but she was put through the emotional ringer, bless. And her story did allow us insight into the world within CAL for those 'saved'.

gateship15
August 26th, 2008, 02:31 AM
i hate that this is in two parts. it was just shown here and its annoying because we haven't got the second part yet

Coco Pops
August 26th, 2008, 10:36 PM
Maybe River Song is The Doctor's wife or something

gateship15
September 4th, 2008, 01:43 AM
yea that would be right lol this was a fantastic episode

Pan
January 14th, 2010, 08:15 AM
This is one of my fav epi!!!

gateship15
January 14th, 2010, 09:23 PM
i still enjoy watching this episode

Spimman
February 27th, 2011, 08:36 PM
Scary aliens rivaling the angels in my nightmares and Dr. River Song - cool episode :)

Cold Fuzz
February 27th, 2011, 09:03 PM
Scary aliens rivaling the angels in my nightmares and Dr. River Song - cool episode :)

This is the truly frightening thing about the Weeping Angels or the Vashta Nerada: It's unclear how to really fight these creatures and win. I don't think it's even possible to destroy them using conventional weapons. The best you can hope for is a stalemate, a truce, or somehow tricking them so you can escape.

iank
February 28th, 2011, 11:56 PM
I don't like most of this season, but this is a great 2 parter that gets better with every viewing.

Admiral Mappalazarou
June 7th, 2011, 01:20 PM
Series 4 was okay, but this two parter was definitely the triumph of the series.

Coco Pops
June 7th, 2011, 07:27 PM
I'm kinda surprised that the BBC site doesn't have "Hey! Who turned out the lights?" as an audio download option. I was thinking of trying it out as a ringtone on my mobile. LOL! Anyone know where I might be able to snag it?


IT IS....... the ringtone on my phone. I made my own.. PM me and I can give you a copy since it was home made off a sound recording off the dvd.

Coco Pops
June 7th, 2011, 07:33 PM
Scary aliens rivaling the angels in my nightmares and Dr. River Song - cool episode :)

Sorry to revisit an old thread but yeah you are right. The scary thing though about them is that with the Vashta Nerada they can be anywhere, and yet everywhere...... And you won't know if they are there when you walk into the shadows until they pounce on you. This makes them one of the more scary villians for me, moreso then the angels since they are stone. A good sledgehammer would fix them.

maneth
May 2nd, 2013, 09:13 AM
Great to finally meet River Song. And the Vashta Nerada are definitely among the most scary sci-fi villains...

Coco Pops
May 2nd, 2013, 06:07 PM
Just on the whole River thing.

With people saying that Clara could be River how could she escape the Library and not be eaten by the Vashta Nerada?

Come to think of it howcome those faces on those pole things don't get eaten?

maneth
May 3rd, 2013, 03:54 AM
I haven't seen part two yet, but my guess is that the faces aren't really there. They're the people in "storage" in the CAL or whatever it was. I haven't seen the episodes with Clara yet.