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GateWorld
April 23rd, 2008, 10:04 PM
<DIV ALIGN=CENTER><TABLE WIDTH=450 BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=7><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial" SIZE=2 COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s4/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/406.jpg" WIDTH=160 HEIGHT=120 ALIGN=RIGHT HSPACE=10 VSPACE=2 BORDER=0 STYLE="border:1px solid #000;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#888888">DOCTOR WHO SERIES 30</FONT>
<FONT SIZE=4><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s4/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE DOCTOR'S DAUGHTER</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE=1>EPISODE NUMBER - 3006</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH=1 HEIGHT=10 ALT="">
After the TARDIS pulls the Doctor, Donna, and Martha to a war-ravaged world, the human soldiers use a tissue sample to create a genetic offspring of the Doctor to join them in their unending fight.

<FONT SIZE=1><B><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/doctor-who/s4/">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >></A></B></FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

The_Carpenter
May 10th, 2008, 12:39 PM
in a word WOW, awesome episode... Though I am disappointed that Jenny wasn't his daughter from long ago, but this works out just as well if not better (no need to explain how she survived or reuse the FoB watch from last year).

The Haff were interesting and utterly alien which is a nice change from most sci-fi out there :)

And the ending well I was waiting for her to regenerate but her returning to life from the terraforming gas was unexpected. I wonder does Jenny possess a full regeneration cycle or does she not have one because she didn't go to the Academy?

And was that final scene setting up a spin off or what? :cool:

Reefgirl
May 10th, 2008, 12:58 PM
I very nearly didn't bother watching this episode but boy oh boy am I glad I did as it's one of the best so far. the thing that stands out most for me is the calibre of acting from David Tennant and Freema Agyeman they were absolutly wonderful, Martha's reaction to the Hath sacrificing himself for her was something else and the Doctor's reaction to Jenny's death was heartbreaking, I admit I was yelling "Regenerate, regenerate" at the TV, I have to admit I was slightly put off by the fact that Gerogia Moffatt is the spit of Baby Spice, I kept expecting her to launch into Wannabe. She was pretty unspectacular as Jenny and Jenny herself was nothing special but the story was better than it has been for a few weeks.

I didn't spot any Cascade/bees/Rose connections, but was this an attempt to bring destroyed planets back to life?

lirenel
May 10th, 2008, 01:04 PM
I thought it was a great episode, but a bit choppy at places. Especially the end when Jenny came back to life. Though when she died and the Doctor's reaction? I had to turn away to keep from crying.

I also utterly fell in love with the Haff (sp?). They were adorable! So alien, but still real, kinda like the Ood.

Hulabaloo
May 10th, 2008, 01:08 PM
I just have to say, Yes she's alive! This is now probably one of my favourite episodes. :D Admitably it was weak at the begining though. I thought that the way she was 'created' was rushed. But overall, I liked her. :D Loved Tennant's acting in this ep. He was fantastic!

P-90_177
May 10th, 2008, 01:14 PM
This was an amazing episode. I wasn't expecting it to be but it was just utterly amazing! Jenny was great. Her and the Doctor played off eachother beautifully. She even had his mannerisms down. I can't wait to see her again. esspecially to see the Doctors reaction. I was really wanting her to regenerate in his arms when she died. It was incredibly emotional. I also loved the scene where the doctor put the gun to that guys head. You could really feel what he was feeling in that scene. A part pf him wanted to pull that trigger. I think that could be an insight as to how the doctor was in the Timewar perhaps.

The_Carpenter
May 10th, 2008, 01:15 PM
I just have to say, Yes she's alive! This is now probably one of my favourite episodes. :D Admitably it was weak at the begining though. I thought that the way she was 'created' was rushed. But overall, I liked her. :D Loved Tennant's acting in this ep. He was fantastic!
Well from the commentary, it seems RTD and the writers were going to leave Jenny dead, but Steven Moffat made them resurrect her :)

Once again thank heavens Steven Moffat is involved in Who :)

knowles2
May 10th, 2008, 01:15 PM
I love this episode. Obviously we are going to see the doctor daughter again in the future ep, either in a spin off of from doctor who or , perhaps they will kill off the doctor and she will be his replacement.

But apart from the daughter moment and twist with the war only actually be 7 days old The daughter going through the lasers was cool.

The ending was good through I so knew was going to be regenerated. who do not bring the doctor daughter back and kill her in the same ep.

Aliens were weird and I like the way they did not speak and ounce of English for once.

And the assistance figuring out something that was key to the mystery makes a change. He was so ignoring those number like they were nothing to do with the story.

overall 9 out of 10 for the ultra cool doctor daughter.

wise one
May 10th, 2008, 01:19 PM
WOW david got some quality acting there when jenny died

martha was good

jenny was WOW

Mr Prophet
May 10th, 2008, 01:31 PM
Well, that was... pointless.

The seven day, multi-generational war was pretty good - if predictable - but what the hell was all the actual Doctor's Daughter stuff about? I mean, apart from stretching the range for our principals, it was just so rushed that there was no substance. I reject you, I can't bear to accept you, I think you're brilliant, I've lost you. So it goes.

If he'd at least asked them to base their society on her rather than himself - not on a man who never would, but on a girl who chose not to - there might have been some purpose; some unique structure to the episode and a reason for the character to actually exist. As it was, her sum total achievement was to snog a guard and stop a bullet, which again would have had just that smidgen more impact if she'd actually died, but no, she's cute and cool so she has to survive.

Overall not a terrible episode, but I resent every backflip that took time out of Henry the Happy Hath's death scene, which effected me far more than Jenny's, even before she came back to life.

pbellosom
May 10th, 2008, 02:08 PM
That episode was much more like it. And yet despite all the things I loved about this episode it still feels slightly off like all the series four ones have. I'm not the only one with this feeling am I?

Surely if they go through twenty generations a day Jenny is not going to live that long?

When it was revealed how long the war had been going and why it happened, I looked at the fact that the general was the only old one along with his insistence on winning and instantly thought that he was actually one of the people who'd stepped up to fill the power vacuum at the start of the war. This was never actually denied so I shall continue to think this.


Henry the Happy Hath

If that's not an official name then I move we make it one, in the same way that all the Wraiths have fan names.

Talking of the Hath, why could Martha not understand them? The TARDIS should be translating.


Well from the commentary, it seems RTD and the writers were going to leave Jenny dead, but Steven Moffat made them resurrect her :)

Once again thank heavens Steven Moffat is involved in Who :)

And there goes my ingenious theory that she'd be returning in the finale.

Mr Prophet
May 10th, 2008, 02:19 PM
Surely if they go through twenty generations a day Jenny is not going to live that long?

I don't think they were big on natural causes, except in as much as it's natural to die when you've been shot a whole bunch.


Talking of the Hath, why could Martha not understand them? The TARDIS should be translating.

I think they were just... muffled.

pbellosom
May 10th, 2008, 02:24 PM
Also if she's not dead then surely the Doctor can sense that there is now another Time Lord roaming the galaxy?

Flyboy
May 10th, 2008, 02:36 PM
Also if she's not dead then surely the Doctor can sense that there is now another Time Lord roaming the galaxy?
She could simply be Gallifreyan.

Matt G
May 10th, 2008, 02:52 PM
1. OK, the daughter part got explained pretty quickly, not what I expected but works well enough.

2. That many people killed in seven days?

3. Martha didn't do badly out of this, didn't expect the Haff to get scratched!

4. Jenny...was OK, gave the Doctor an interesting mirror to look into. Her problem is that the spaceship she's got isn't a TARDIS. Even if the Doctor can detect her, at most we won't see her till he swings by that time period again. Not worth doing a spinoff but we certainly haven't heard the last of her!

Nice stuff!

Billz
May 10th, 2008, 02:55 PM
Talking of the Hath, why could Martha not understand them? The TARDIS should be translating.

The Hath, as from this episode, would appear to not communicate verbally at all. I summize that Hath communication is based on how that green liquid stuff reacted with every breath. Then again, it could be telepathy on some level. This would be why the TARDIS wasn't translating. Simply because, there was no new verbal 'signals' to translate.


Also if she's not dead then surely the Doctor can sense that there is now another Time Lord roaming the galaxy?

Having 2 hearts does not make a character a Time Lord.

PS: The modified P90's were used again. Yay! :jack_new_anime25:

Tracy Jane
May 10th, 2008, 03:20 PM
The regeneration issue.... I thought that was covered in the "she's too like me" comment, then I remembered how to count. Even counting Jenny's creation as a regeneration then she'd only have used ten and still have two more, so that couldn't answer it.

I liked Jenny, but wish she'd got to travel with the others for one or two episodes before they did the kill and revive thing.

huntress
May 10th, 2008, 03:39 PM
I was really skeptical about this episode but it surprised me in a positive way.

The story was clever and thankfully Jenny wasn't too much of a Mary Sue (though a weird mix between a Spice Girl and Veronica Mars) The only drawback was, that she sort of regenerated at the end or at least came back to life. I I honestly think she should have stayed dead. Georgia Moffats acting didn't impress me at all, but the trio (David, Catherine and Freema) certainly did a great job. I loved it, when Donna showed again her skills as super temp and also when she made the doctor realize that Jenny is not just some clone but that she is very much a part of him. There were three scenes that particularly squeezed my heart

- when the Hoff, that had become Martha's friend, gave his life to save Martha from the bog. I loved Martha in this episode so much. She was lively and just plain wonderful
- when the doctor told Donna about his family and that a part of him died when they died. A part that can't be retrieved. I loved it when Donna told him that he is wrong and she was. In the short timespan that he was able to spend time with Jenny he really started to care for her and I guess even to love her and then....
- She died. God, when the doctor cried over her body...that broke my heart. Why does he always have to suffer so much? Both Donna and Martha looked on helplessly and felt so very, very sorry. It reminded me a bit of Rose and her family, when they had to watch helplessly while the heart from Rose broke and she cried at that wall. There was nothing they could say to make the pain any less painful. Really intense was the moment, when the doctor stood enraged over the general and ready to kill the man but then didn't and said that he would never, ever do that.

The Hoffs were interesting. The creature make-up was pretty bad but better then the Slitheens. Doctor Who has some great effects to boast but creature FX is not one of them. The aliens often look rather cheesy (I did like the Ood though) The story was interesting and came up with was really fascinating and the resolution of it unexpected. Who would have thought that this was had started only a week ago after the spaceship had crashed because of a power vacuum.

The ending between Martha and the doctor was also nice. How she said to Donna, that a time will come when she will also leave the doctor and Donna doesn't believe her of course and says the same thing that Rose has said, that she would stay forever but as we all know forever is an awfully long time....


BTW what was the hint this time around. The mentioning of Jenny being a paradox or simply the word paradox?
The episode was unexpected pleasant surprise.
Next: Agatha Christie and the gigantic wasp. Sounds a bit like Queen Victoria and the Werewolf. We will see how this will turn out.

Jonzey
May 10th, 2008, 03:41 PM
I had mixed feeling about this episode, so much so that I'm actually gonna talk about them even though I don't usually bother and just lurk around seeing what other people thought.

Basically my opinion when watching went like this:
Bad
Alright
Good
Confused
Really good
Bad
Alright

I thought the opening part was crap. Turns out his daughter suddenly existed cos someone made him put his hand in the machine. And those guns were really really terrible. Did they fire anything or just shoot little bits of flame? Anyway after that I started to enjoy it. I'm not sure why Martha was there, the episode could have been done without her, but I liked her in it- her reaction when the fish guys were all patting her on the head was funny. I liked the fish guys too- they were really different and cool.

I liked the Doctor and his daughter interacting and how his opinion changed. I thought the same as him at the start- she was built in a machine so she's not really his daughter, which felt like a massive cop-out given the previews- but I liked her in the end.

That whole 7 day thing was cool and weird but I'm not sure how it worked- surely really old general guy wasn't built really old yesterday- maybe I just missed something about that.

Jenny's death was powerful but I couldn't help thinking 'seriously?! They're gonna bring her in and kill her off in the same episode?!' So I thought that was pretty stupid. I did like the scene where the Doctor held a gun at the general- I thought he was gonna shoot him, he looked crazy.

The ending improved when she came back to life, so we'll probably (hopefully) see her again cos I liked her character (also she was cute). But it reminded me of Ace Rimmer from Red Dwarf for some reason, so it seemed a bit silly.

Overall I did like it though. And next week's preview looks interesting.

Jonzey
May 10th, 2008, 03:48 PM
The Hoffs were interesting. The creature make-up was pretty bad but better then the Slitheens. Doctor Who has some great effects to boast but creature FX is not one of them. The aliens often look rather cheesy (I did like the Ood though)
I agree, the creature make-up isn't great, and sometimes they do look cheesy (I thought the Hoff looked pretty cool though) but I do like how they try to do something different. One of the things that bugs me about Stargate is how every race is pretty much human. In the entire Stargate history I can think of two 'alien' alien races- those dude from Foothold and the invisible bug guys. Doctor Who comes up with an original and different looking species on almost a weekly basis, and never (to my knowledge) had one cliched looking alien species.

Willow'sCat
May 10th, 2008, 05:52 PM
I don't know, seems a lot of nothing to get to nowhere. I found the episode while fast paced was basically pointless, I just get this feeling all the episodes so far are leaving little markers for the finale, rather then being brilliant or necessary in their own right.

You can argue that it was the same with "Bad Wolf" and "Torchwood" but really this throwing out cheap tricks just to end no where? Getting boring, tired and unoriginal.

Yes David acted his arse off, but he always acts his arse off that is why we love him so much. :D Donna was underused, and again with the "we are not a couple" ARH!

Martha was pointless, she was the main reason I think these eps are just leading to the finale, there was ZERO reason to have her there, Donna could have been the one to get dragged off at the start and then The Doctor could have spent more time coming to terms with Jenny by himself, he didn't need a women (Donna) to tell him how to be a father, or that he should be one. :cool: I am not sure on Jenny being out there somewhere... although if they wanted to stick her on Torchwood for a few eps I wouldn't say no. :D

While I am happy the clone thing wasn't as black and white as it is in other shows, and we actually got The Doctor and Donna being upfront and unsure about how to receive Jenny as a Time Lady, as his daughter, it still felt like a bad fit coming straight out of another episode that used cloning.

Enough with the clones! :rolleyes:

I am also grateful that The Doctor was allowed to be The Doctor and not some killing machine, although I still have problems with demonising him to fit RTD "Time War" story line. I can live with it but I don't have to like it. :cool:

Better then last weeks episode, maybe the best so far this series, but I am still waiting for the "OMG!" reaction I have experienced in previous series. A girl needs an "OMG!" moment or two. :p

Anyway next week... I am a huge fan of Mrs Mallowan's so I think I will be happy no matter what.:)

The_Carpenter
May 10th, 2008, 06:20 PM
While I am happy the clone thing wasn't as black and white as it is in other shows, and we actually got The Doctor and Donna being upfront and unsure about how to receive Jenny as a Time Lady, as his daughter, it still felt like a bad fit coming straight out of another episode that used cloning.

Enough with the clones! :rolleyes:


Just thought I'd point out the fact that Jenny isn't a clone. A clone is a identical copy which Jenny clearly isn't (She's a she for starters ;)). The process that Jenny was conceived by is more akin to Parthenogenesis.

Of course not that many people would bother to make that distinction, but thats no reason not too :cool:

ShadowMaat
May 10th, 2008, 07:45 PM
For some reason, Jenny really reminded me of Sally Sparrow and I liked her for it. ;) The story was a bit wobbly, though, and felt a bit too crammed in. The whole Seven Days War thing would have been enough on its own and I wish that info could have been presented to them along with Martha reading them the riot act over Henry the Hath's sacrifice and how it proves that the two groups can get along. Or something. Cloning method aside, I'm not sure this was the best place to introduce a daughter for the Doctor. Some of the right points were touched on, but I think it all went a little too fast to really do it justice. Her living means there may be a chance down the road for more development, but it was still a bit wobbly.

I wonder how the genetics are supposed to work out in regards to the new population breeding. How do you tell who's an offshoot of whom? Or do you just keep cloning and forget natural childbirth? ;)

I'm thinking maybe the paradox thing was the clue of the week and I half expected the Doctor to comment on it maybe being an aftereffect of the Master's tampering with the TARDIS in last year's finale. But then, he also didn't comment on his hand wound looking like the hand wound on the Empty Child and that was the first thing I said when I saw it. :P I think that was probably just a genuine coincidence though.

Willow'sCat
May 10th, 2008, 08:55 PM
Of course not that many people would bother to make that distinction, but thats no reason not too :cool:Still cheap and tricky to me. If they had to introduce a "daughter" why do it like this? It just seems tacky.

Cheap, tricky and tacky. :P

Elinor
May 10th, 2008, 11:52 PM
OK episode...had some nice little moments. Blimey! That Georgia Moffatt is a little bundle of enery isn't she? I thought she was quite good. It was interesting to read in my TV guide that she's the daughter of former Dr Who Peter Davison. Awww!

I loved the alien landscape they designed for this one. The temple looked a bit like the Atlantis tower I thought! :D


That episode was much more like it. And yet despite all the things I loved about this episode it still feels slightly off like all the series four ones have. I'm not the only one with this feeling am I?



No, you're not the only one! Apart from Planet of the Ood, I'm just not getting a WOW! feeling this season. I'm not quite sure if it is any one thing in particular. I know I'm not too keen on the funked up theme music. I haven't warmed to Donna. When she gets a strop going I feel like I'm watching an episode of Eastenders. :lol:

I think the main reason is, I just feel the stories don't seem to have too much depth this year. Far too much running around and shooting guns! It feels like they're aiming more for the kiddie/teen market. Don't know...hope I get a WOW! feeling again soon. I really want to!


I agree, the creature make-up isn't great, and sometimes they do look cheesy (I thought the Hoff looked pretty cool though) but I do like how they try to do something different. One of the things that bugs me about Stargate is how every race is pretty much human. In the entire Stargate history I can think of two 'alien' alien races- those dude from Foothold and the invisible bug guys. Doctor Who comes up with an original and different looking species on almost a weekly basis, and never (to my knowledge) had one cliched looking alien species.

Yes I agree...the aliens on Dr Who are always so original and quite fascinating. The producers get full marks for that. Heh! I'm always thinking "Flip! It must be really uncomfortable in that costume!"

:D

Hulabaloo
May 11th, 2008, 01:08 AM
No, you're not the only one! Apart from Planet of the Ood, I'm just not getting a WOW! feeling this season. I'm not quite sure if it is any one thing in particular. I know I'm not too keen on the funked up theme music. I haven't warmed to Donna. When she gets a strop going I feel like I'm watching an episode of Eastenders. :lol:

I think the main reason is, I just feel the stories don't seem to have too much depth this year. Far too much running around and shooting guns! It feels like they're aiming more for the kiddie/teen market. Don't know...hope I get a WOW! feeling again soon. I really want to!


Same. They just don't seem to make me all excited and jumpy as I used to be... I think your right about the kiddie teen market. Which is a shame.

Mr Prophet
May 11th, 2008, 01:36 AM
For some reason, Jenny really reminded me of Sally Sparrow and I liked her for it. ;) The story was a bit wobbly, though, and felt a bit too crammed in. The whole Seven Days War thing would have been enough on its own and I wish that info could have been presented to them along with Martha reading them the riot act over Henry the Hath's sacrifice and how it proves that the two groups can get along. Or something.

I felt this. I was just waiting for Martha to stand in front of the General and tell him that a Hath gave his life to save hers, and I feel really strongly that the inspiration for the new colony should have been Henry and Jenny, not the Doctor doing his Space Messiah act again. I don't recall any other Doctor - okay, maybe the Sixth - being quite so 'me, me, me' all the time.


Cloning method aside, I'm not sure this was the best place to introduce a daughter for the Doctor. Some of the right points were touched on, but I think it all went a little too fast to really do it justice. Her living means there may be a chance down the road for more development, but it was still a bit wobbly.

The seven day war was an episode on its own; the Doctor's daughter was at least an episode on its own. Cramming them in together made it all seem even more rushed than usual, even without the gratuitous laser backflips.

RogueSeven
May 11th, 2008, 01:44 AM
this serious is amazing, never ceases to be so fantastic

was a little surprised whent the doctor pulled the gun on the general but was relieve when he explained it "the man who wouldnt do it", LOVE IT, the doctor, doesnt use a weapon but is more powerful then anything, you cant NOT love it :D

Mr Prophet
May 11th, 2008, 01:54 AM
I can't help feeling there was a little hypocrisy from the man who ended the Time War with an act of double genocide (albeit a slightly incompetent one) and flushed the Racnoss brood down the world's biggest plughole. The Doctor may not carry a weapon, but he does fight and he has killed, and he has certainly enabled others to do the same. While he might be appalled by the stupidity of this particular war, he's supposed to be ice and fire and all that kind of thing. He's not a murderer, but he's not safe either.

This series, even more than previous ones, seems unsure how to depict the Doctor's attitude to fighting and killing. While he has always tried to give people a chance to change, he has also been shown to be incredibly destructive and frightening, yet now he says he never would? Truth is, we know he would, if it were a satsuma not a gun, and now I'm left feeling that the Doctor is a flaming hypocrite and I don't want that.

And apparently the Hath was called Peck, although how Martha knew that I can't say. Maybe Peck is short for Henry?

Madeleine
May 11th, 2008, 02:13 AM
Lovely ep. DT fab as ever, aliens wonderfully alien, Jenny perky and YAY she lived.


Truth is, we know he would, if it were a satsuma not a gun, and now I'm left feeling that the Doctor is a flaming hypocrite and I don't want that?

I think the "I never would" wasn't "I'd never kill", but "I'd never aim a gun at a harmless, unarmed person, AFTER the peace has been made, and pull the trigger as a wanton act of petulant revenge in the manner that the General did." No hypocrisy in that, I reckon.

No bees, no medusa cascade... but again with calling attention to the Doctor's lack of name.

Reefgirl
May 11th, 2008, 02:28 AM
I had to laugh at Donna's comment about Hounslow Library, I used to live in Hounslow and have been to the library, it's a dump.

I'm really looking forward to next week, I'm a big fan of Agatha Christie, it's such a shame Joan Hickson is no longer with us, I'd loved to have seen her in a guest role

Mr Prophet
May 11th, 2008, 02:34 AM
I think the "I never would" wasn't "I'd never kill", but "I'd never aim a gun at a harmless, unarmed person, AFTER the peace has been made, and pull the trigger as a wanton act of petulant revenge in the manner that the General did." No hypocrisy in that, I reckon.

Perhaps so, and fair enough then, but my worries started earlier where he's going on about genocide. This is the man who destroyed Skaro, who killed the last of the Krillitane and the Racnoss, who burned his own world and the Daleks with it, so he isn't even someone who won't kill on a massive scale when he's pushed to it. Actually, the same thing gave me pause when he wouldn't push the button on the Sontarans. We know he'll do this kind of thing, so is it just that he can't look them in the eyes and kill them, or is he afraid of his own death? Either way that scene weakens him as a character, far more than the end of The Parting of the Ways, because whereas the Ninth Doctor accepted that he couldn't do that again, certainly not at the cost of Earth, the Tenth blustered about it and now I don't like him so much.

I guess they're trying to keep the issues fairly simple for a family show (fire bad, tree pretty, slaves and killing wrong) but surely the point is less that he wouldn't kill or that he wouldn't fight, but that he would think about it first. What makes him different from the progenated soldiers, and what ultimately makes Jenny different, is that he never just accepts the received wisdom of a situation; he tries to find out what's happening before he chooses sides and he looks for every other option before he kills.

Dusk
May 11th, 2008, 03:07 AM
The gaping loopholes in the genetics of Jenny's creation pained me. Progenation? Haploids into diploids and then recombined in a different arrangement? And a young adult in seconds? Hardly conceivable! And she comes out with clothes on? A swathe of mascara and lipstick? Hair tied back and ready to go? I'm sorry, but she looks like she just stepped out of a beauty salon, not a progenation capsule. :mckay:

LeaE
May 11th, 2008, 03:28 AM
David Tennant is fantastic. That is the first and very prevalent thought of many mixed ones after seen this episode.

However, fantastic David was this episode just didn't hit the spot for me. As a lot of you have mentioned, it was too big of a story for one episode, or two big stories crammed into one. I loved the seven day war thing and thought it would have been stronger if not tied up with the whole Doctor's daughter thing.

It's weird, I've never seen Georgina Moffat in anything but loved her after this but I'm so not fussed on Jenny. She seemed very contrived and movie of the week style character. I think that may have been a product of too much in 45 minutes though.

Watching this episode made me realise why I'm not enjoying this series as much as I thought I would (although I do prefer it to series 3 - mostly because I love Donna and I'm not a Martha fan). Its because each episode feels like it is just going through the motions to get the clues for the finale in under the radar instead of being a romp packed full of jam that even though the clues are obvious you totally missed them due to the entertainment factor. I want that. I miss the focus on where we are now rather than where we are going. I really can't wait until Stephen Moffat's episodes now, he never fails to impress.

Janus
May 11th, 2008, 04:24 AM
I think this episode was great. It was a good story, but indeed rushed. I think they should go back to the planet some day and do another episode on it. (Maybe a two-parter.) Then we can do a better exploration of the war and Hath. I also hope Jenny and the Doctor get back together, the guy has suffered enough. Also....me thinks that the phrase 'She is coming back'....which rumor has it is floating around, is not just about Rose, but also about Susan and Jenny.

Gate-builder
May 11th, 2008, 05:40 AM
Nice episode, but I got the feeling they tried to jam too much into one episode. The Doctors toy mouse made me laugh, and I liked the way Jenny had the Doctor lost for words, that doesn't happen very often.

I must say that the 'temple' reminded me of Ancient architecture, it looked a bit like the main tower on Atlantis.

I hope the Doctor runs into Jenny again, hopefully this season, she could become a really good character, she bought out a side in him that we haven't really seen before.

I was a bit annoyed about how Jenny came back to life after the Doctor had left, hasn't the poor guy suffered enough? Why can't something good happen to him for once?

pizzadude
May 11th, 2008, 06:10 AM
This series, even more than previous ones, seems unsure how to depict the Doctor's attitude to fighting and killing. While he has always tried to give people a chance to change, he has also been shown to be incredibly destructive and frightening, yet now he says he never would? Truth is, we know he would, if it were a satsuma not a gun, and now I'm left feeling that the Doctor is a flaming hypocrite and I don't want that.


He would never take the gun and shoot the general in cold blood or in heat of the moment revenge, i believe he would however if it would save further lives, after they choose their course of action - this doctor seems to want to give people a chance to correct themselves.

Falcon 304
May 11th, 2008, 06:56 AM
Wow, once again, crap. I simply could not stop saying "what the ****" when Martha was crying over the Hath dying. Way to much. Jenny? Rushed, and crap. Catherine Tate? HA! Yah...

StayingOccupied
May 11th, 2008, 08:28 AM
Jenny is hot hot hot

ShadowMaat
May 11th, 2008, 09:41 AM
I didn't think the tower looked Ancient, I thought it looked Gallifreyan. I almost wondered if they were gonna go somewhere with the whole "No more Gallifrey and no more Time Lords" thing since it's been repeated a bit too often (particularly this season) for it to be a coincidence, although if they can throw the "we're so not a couple" joke into every single damn ep I guess they can repeat the "it's all gone" shtick once in a while, too.

Pitry
May 11th, 2008, 10:32 AM
I think this was a bit too soon.

The background - I lvoed it, the concept of a 7-day-war that's being mythed (erm, it's a verb. it is!) by the generations into so much more was brilliant. Also the fact that while we could see the Hath can get along with humans - as Martha shown - we still don't know who the real "baddies" in this were - the humans, Hath, or both.
Also, incredible fantastic acting from all involved, especially David Tennant, who rocks, period. And Donna enjoying him not knowing how to answer Jenny. And Jenny rocked, which is surprising cos I thought she wouldn't, but she does.
And they didn't kill her in the end! Hooray. Although I do hope they have a pretty good explanation on why the Doctor can't sense her and come pick her up knownig she's alive etc (and why she regenerated without, erm, regenerating.).

But the thing is, quite spmoe parts in this episode felt like taking key points out of Utopia/Sound of Drums/ Last of the Time Lords and putting them into 45 minutes instead of 2.5 hours. Jenny's death scene was heartbreaking and beautiful, but erm, we've seen this, 7 episodes ago. I can appreciate them tryign to get as much of Tennant as they could in the time he has left - hopefully a lot of it - but they should have waited longer with this story, or make it radically different. Because there were times I felt "I'v e watched this before".
Still cool episode though. I'm in love with this series.


Perhaps so, and fair enough then, but my worries started earlier where he's going on about genocide. This is the man who destroyed Skaro, who killed the last of the Krillitane and the Racnoss, who burned his own world and the Daleks with it, so he isn't even someone who won't kill on a massive scale when he's pushed to it. Actually, the same thing gave me pause when he wouldn't push the button on the Sontarans. We know he'll do this kind of thing, so is it just that he can't look them in the eyes and kill them, or is he afraid of his own death? Either way that scene weakens him as a character, far more than the end of The Parting of the Ways, because whereas the Ninth Doctor accepted that he couldn't do that again, certainly not at the cost of Earth, the Tenth blustered about it and now I don't like him so much.


Actually they deal witht hem a lot better than most shows - they acknwoledge it's an existing issue! The whole cell scene, Jenny compeltely calls off the Doctor's hypocrisy. Martha did so too in The Snotaran Stratagem. I think it's quite an adult POV actually - acknowledging that there is hypocrisy involved ni a lot of things people do, and that the Doctor might not want to be a soldier and to kill and all but he finds himself again and again doing just that.
The difference is, he's also always lookign for another way. Killing is never his first choice, only the last.

Reefgirl
May 11th, 2008, 10:56 AM
<Snippped for length>
Actually they deal witht hem a lot better than most shows - they acknwoledge it's an existing issue! The whole cell scene, Jenny compeltely calls off the Doctor's hypocrisy. Martha did so too in The Snotaran Stratagem. I think it's quite an adult POV actually - acknowledging that there is hypocrisy involved ni a lot of things people do, and that the Doctor might not want to be a soldier and to kill and all but he finds himself again and again doing just that.
The difference is, he's also always lookign for another way. Killing is never his first choice, only the last.

:lol: Sorry I know this is a typo but it sums up that episode perfectly

Mr Prophet
May 11th, 2008, 11:20 AM
Actually they deal witht hem a lot better than most shows - they acknwoledge it's an existing issue! The whole cell scene, Jenny compeltely calls off the Doctor's hypocrisy. Martha did so too in The Snotaran Stratagem. I think it's quite an adult POV actually - acknowledging that there is hypocrisy involved ni a lot of things people do, and that the Doctor might not want to be a soldier and to kill and all but he finds himself again and again doing just that.
The difference is, he's also always lookign for another way. Killing is never his first choice, only the last.

I think this probably comes down to the essential division of Doctor Who fandom, in which I am decidedly on the other side from Russell T. The one view (which is more or less the one I subscribe to) is that the Doctor may look human, but he is alien and ancient, a powerful, manipulative being and pretty much self-aware. On this line, the Doctor makes mistakes, he misjudges individuals, but he doesn't really have issues because he's nine hundred and some years old.

Russell T., I guess is going more for the school of thought which seeks the humanity in the Doctor, thus his Doctor doesn't just need to be stopped from forgetting that people are people, but from forgetting that he is people. This is all fine and dandy as a direction, except then the Doctor starts coming over all messianic, and I can't get behind the attitude of setting himself as an example to others if he's still struggling to define himself as an individual.

Pitry
May 11th, 2008, 11:57 AM
:lol: Sorry I know this is a typo but it sums up that episode perfectly

Glad to be of service. :P


I think this probably comes down to the essential division of Doctor Who fandom, in which I am decidedly on the other side from Russell T. The one view (which is more or less the one I subscribe to) is that the Doctor may look human, but he is alien and ancient, a powerful, manipulative being and pretty much self-aware. On this line, the Doctor makes mistakes, he misjudges individuals, but he doesn't really have issues because he's nine hundred and some years old.

Russell T., I guess is going more for the school of thought which seeks the humanity in the Doctor, thus his Doctor doesn't just need to be stopped from forgetting that people are people, but from forgetting that he is people. This is all fine and dandy as a direction, except then the Doctor starts coming over all messianic, and I can't get behind the attitude of setting himself as an example to others if he's still struggling to define himself as an individual.

Well, I fully admit to definitely subscribe to the RTD school on this issue. I don't think he's struggling to define himself., not at all. I think he knows exactly who and what he is. If everyone waited til they're perfect to start preaching to others, then the world would have been full of very quiet people... ;) The way they're doing it, the Doctor can teach others and inspire others - especialy in his messianic forms ;) - but he doesn't stand still, he still learns himself and he still depsite all his great knowledge and understanding has to learn a lot.
I guess it is a matter of difference of opinion though :)

Mr Prophet
May 11th, 2008, 12:09 PM
Maybe it's just that I feel that he's being portrayed as extra-issuey this season, and at the same time being given a lot of halo time, much of which belongs to other people.

When he steps out of the glowing light in Fires of Pompei; that's Donna's glowing light. She's the one who persuaded him to go back, so why should he get to be the angel?

In Planet of the Ood, it's Dr Whatsit who did most of the work, but the Doctor who gets to be sung to at the end.

Now he's actually telling people to treat him as their messiah (while at the same time criticising their mythologised understanding of the world), when that was Henry and Jenny's scene and Martha's line to deliver.

I don't know why, but I just feel that Season 4's Doctor is coming across as, perhaps not a hypocrite, but a self-important fraud.

Puddle-Jumper
May 11th, 2008, 12:12 PM
Fantastic Episode! Really really good

Pitry
May 11th, 2008, 01:10 PM
I don't know why, but I just feel that Season 4's Doctor is coming across as, perhaps not a hypocrite, but a self-important fraud.

Oh, I definitely agree! He's both a hypocrite and he's defintiely self important, even if he's not compeltely a fraud - look at last week's episode, both the Key-handing scene when he needed Donna to tell him they can have the sentimentality later when the world's stopped choking and then him saying his goodbyes before finishing to set the air-terraforming-bomb thingie, practically begging for them to go all mushy eyes and miserable and cry and tell him not to do it. ;) He's always a complete attention whore, this year I agree more than ever.

But I don't have a problem with that. I mean, on so many other areas the Doctor is protrayed as self centred, in a veyr conscious manner - and he has been since the original series, since Hartnell himself. The Doctor always thinks of himself as great and wonderful. He knows that's not completely true - especially when he feels emo about time war/genocide/stuff he did to MArtha etc, but he is a self centred attention whore -and always has been, just look at Hartnell, Pertwee and especially Baker.

But I think he doesn't do it in a conscious way. It's not that he has the need to be adored - he has no problem giving credit to other people too, and make them better by giving them credit - and he usually does. Look for exampel a tLast of the Time Lords: as far as he was concerned MArtha saved the world, not him. Even if people did give him th credit. Or Fires of Pompeii, the light was given to him, but afterwards he acknowledges the part Donna did there. How important she was to the family beign rescued.
Production wise, I think sometimes the imagery is stronger when it's the Doctor - for example, the scene you mentioned from Fired of Pompeii: no, I don't think it would have had the same strength had Donna did the "ome with me" line. But it should be mentioned the scene where the Doctor gives Donna the credit comes afterwards, acknowlegding her importance - both the Doctor adn the production team/ viewers acknowledging it.

Maybe that's why it's easier for me to accept him and even like some of his messianic moments - he doesn't do it on purpose, and he woudl probabyl have been appalled at it had he realised. ;)

Mr Prophet
May 11th, 2008, 02:01 PM
I guess my problem is that this season it does seem like he's doing it on purpose. Before he's been dramatic, and yes, he loves the enigmatic man of mystery kudos, but something in the scripting and design this season is that little bit more. It's like he was always telling people how clever he is, but now he's telling them how great he is.

Alipeeps
May 11th, 2008, 02:42 PM
And was that final scene setting up a spin off or what? :cool:

Heh, I couldn't help but (rather cynically) think that too! :lol:


I very nearly didn't bother watching this episode but boy oh boy am I glad I did as it's one of the best so far. the thing that stands out most for me is the calibre of acting from David Tennant and Freema Agyeman they were absolutly wonderful, Martha's reaction to the Hath sacrificing himself for her was something else and the Doctor's reaction to Jenny's death was heartbreaking, I admit I was yelling "Regenerate, regenerate" at the TV, I have to admit I was slightly put off by the fact that Gerogia Moffatt is the spit of Baby Spice, I kept expecting her to launch into Wannabe. She was pretty unspectacular as Jenny and Jenny herself was nothing special but the story was better than it has been for a few weeks.

I didn't spot any Cascade/bees/Rose connections, but was this an attempt to bring destroyed planets back to life?

I have to admit I found Martha a little over-acted this week - the whole mourning the Hath scene felt a bit much for me. And honestly, I'm getting a tiny bit sick of Martha getting herself into peril every flipping episode in both Season 4 Who and her Torchwood eps. She was MUCH more competent in Season 3 and not forever falling down slopes into sinking mud or getting kidnapped and cloned by obviously mind-controlled goons or getting captured and experimented on by the bad guys she's supposed to be investigating... she saved the world FFS! She's a trained Doctor and a clever girl and she was more than able to look after herself *and* the Doctor in Season 3!

David, as ever, kicked ass as the Doctor and was just fascinating to watch. I rather liked Jenny, despite also being dubious about the concept. And her death scene was heartbreaking...


For some reason, Jenny really reminded me of Sally Sparrow and I liked her for it. ;)

D'you know, you're right! She did rather, didn't she? :D


I wonder how the genetics are supposed to work out in regards to the new population breeding. How do you tell who's an offshoot of whom? Or do you just keep cloning and forget natural childbirth? ;)

I think that was the point of why they were so amazed and thrilled to find people with "clean hands". I'm guessing there's a limit to how many samples you can take from each person in any given time (otherwise one could assume bith sides would be frantically progenating around the clock in an attempt to build up superior numbers) and the prospect of new people to sample was much appreciated. With regard to keeping track and to the consequences for natural breeding, I think they'd been so focused on the war that that was the last of their concerns. It's something they may well have to think about in peacetime though.


I loved the alien landscape they designed for this one. The temple looked a bit like the Atlantis tower I thought! :D

Heee! I rather thought so too! :D


No, you're not the only one! Apart from Planet of the Ood, I'm just not getting a WOW! feeling this season. I'm not quite sure if it is any one thing in particular. I know I'm not too keen on the funked up theme music. I haven't warmed to Donna. When she gets a strop going I feel like I'm watching an episode of Eastenders. :lol:

I think the main reason is, I just feel the stories don't seem to have too much depth this year. Far too much running around and shooting guns! It feels like they're aiming more for the kiddie/teen market. Don't know...hope I get a WOW! feeling again soon. I really want to!

I'm enjoying this season but I admit it's not quite grabbing me - that WOW factor - as much as last season did. I don't know quite why. There's just something about the feel of it... it almost felt tonight a little swan-songish (or maybe that's just my mood filtering through) as though we're building up to a farewell or something (which I suppose, in a way, with no full season next year, we are).

There was much I enjoyed about this episode though - most of them to do with a) David's incredible acting and b) more references to the Doctor's past. Favourites include him talking about the Time War and talking about having had a family in the past and losing them. I *adored* Donna' line about "You're always talking but you never say anything" (not to toot my own horn, but I had Martha say something similar in a fanfic I wrote. :D) and his simple admission of "I know". :)

huntress
May 11th, 2008, 02:46 PM
I also have this swan song feeling which is getting stronger. My fears that this will be David Tennants last turn as the doctor are getting stronger and stronger :( also it is a swan song series since it wil be the last with RTD as the "boss"

Regarding the doctor and his ambigious double standards as well as the fact that the story seemed a bit too much. Both issues are addressed in the Confidential. The writers are all very much aware of it and not quite happy with it either but Russell T Davies says that true pacifism is not possible (true) and that at least the doctor never relishes in the the death and havoc he often has to wreck. He does it out of necessity not because he enjoys it. The writers also admitted that the story was a bit cramped and the reason for that was, that Martha was with them on board and they didn't want to let her tag along with Donna and the doctor but give her, her own little storyline. In a way they admitted, that this was bit too much for an episode.

What still amuses me is that machine as well as Jenny. For one thing - a machine that creates new people, dresses them and gibves them also a good makeup? I want one! Also - Jenny isn't really a Mary-Sue. She is a Buffy-Sue with perfect makeup and hair LOL (it amused me to no end that in the final scene- before she wakes up- we can see that she has liquid eyeliner. Now who applied that makeup on her or is that permanent lookalike liquid makeup courtesy to the machine. Another thing that didn't work for me in the story - why should a machine that creates soldiers, create a perky, little blond teenager? Aren't broadchested GI Joes the standard issue here or did the machine have a hicup because of the complex DNA from the doctor?

So on the scale of one to ten I would give this a six I think.

AvatarIII
May 12th, 2008, 02:36 AM
who's with me in thinking that we'll see Genny again in the last episode, and perhaps whatever occurs in the last episode will some how be her fault because she's gone off galivanting and done something by accident??

GodAtum
May 12th, 2008, 12:01 PM
Did I miss the explanation of why the Tardis brought the Doctor there?

Also anybody catch the date they where in?

dragongirl
May 12th, 2008, 01:43 PM
Did I miss the explanation of why the Tardis brought the Doctor there?

Also anybody catch the date they where in?

The Doctor said it was a paradox the Trdis took them there because of the Doctor's Daughter somehow the Tardis knew that they needed to be there to end the war and get things right and have the "birth" of Jenny. I am sorry if I am unclear I know I understand it enough that I get it just not to fully explain it.

And I don't know exactly that part I missed.

ShadowMaat
May 12th, 2008, 03:17 PM
I thought it had something to do with the Doctor's hand/the TARDIS knowing Jenny was in trouble and rushing to try and save her, but arriving too soon and thus resulting in a situation where Jenny is actually created... which is a paradox. Or something like that. ;)

And if you're any good with dates, all the numbers on the walls marked the dates of completion. I believe the year was first, so go ahead and translate it into a normal calendar for the rest of us. :D

Willow'sCat
May 12th, 2008, 05:48 PM
Maybe it's just that I feel that he's being portrayed as extra-issuey this season, and at the same time being given a lot of halo time, much of which belongs to other people.You know I am the first to admit to my weird hero worship of the character, and I do have problems with him being so contradictory.

Then I think of the previous 29 series of Doctor Who.
It is consistent, at the core of the character is a Time Lord who has always struggled to know what is right and wrong, ethical and moral. He has rarely been humble, I still think he side steps taking credit but only because that usually means having to glad hand folks. He has always made mistakes and found it hard to admit to them.;)

I think where this Doctor differs the most is that the show has allowed him to be more like a human and less like a Time Lord. His scientific mind has been down played in order for him to 'love' those around him. Huge mistake.

I don't doubt The Doctor mark 1 was upset at Susan leaving, and we all saw how badly The Doctor mark 3 was when Jo left... and on it goes, but now due to Rose and the endless shipping that shouldn't have happened IMHO they have now got him to a stage where he is grieving her loss.

I hate to say it but that is what he is doing, that appears to be what Rose is doing regarding him. I have no doubt whatever is coming will be centred around Rose and The Doctor's relationship.

I guess the bright spot there is that we may get this all out of the way once and for all and the new EP who takes over from RTD will be able to start afresh, maybe with a new actor in the role as well.

It's all good, if you really think about it. :)

*was that convincing?* :p

huntress
May 13th, 2008, 12:39 AM
I hate to say it but that is what he is doing, that appears to be what Rose is doing regarding him. I have no doubt whatever is coming will be centred around Rose and The Doctor's relationship.

I hope it is and while I know that there is a big portion in the Who universe who even get squeaminsh when the doctor kisses someone - for shippers it is only perfect ;)

Night Marshal
May 13th, 2008, 02:17 AM
This series, even more than previous ones, seems unsure how to depict the Doctor's attitude to fighting and killing. While he has always tried to give people a chance to change, he has also been shown to be incredibly destructive and frightening, yet now he says he never would? Truth is, we know he would, if it were a satsuma not a gun, and now I'm left feeling that the Doctor is a flaming hypocrite and I don't want that.

Personally I like the doctor having trouble finding his balance. It makes him more him and more assable as a character because who hasn't had those times in there life when they struggle for who you are, and the doctor has lived a very long life. In my mind the Doctor is also coming back to the world. He had been alone since the end of the time war but when Rose joined him it started his life anew. I think thats why there relationship was so much closer than any other companion because it had been so long since he had been close to anyone. But with the lost of Rose and his return to the world has made him a bit unstable thats why he wants people like Donna and Martha around.

Yes he is goofy and odd and smart and all those things that make him the doctor but under that I think we are seeing more the doctor than we had after seen in the old show. Some my not like that but I do:cool:

nx01a
May 27th, 2008, 12:01 PM
Not the daughter I wanted the episode to be about...

The Good:
>"You and your woman..." :P
>The mouse. :P
>Donna's a jane of all trades, temping everywhere. Luv it. And her comments about staying with the Doctor forever... How naive they are in the beginning, even once they hear his track record and meet other jaded companions. Her womanly charms, indeed.:P
>The use of a modified 'This is Gallifrey: Our Childhood, Our Home' as the background music for the Doctor's Time Lord explanation scene. Love that music!
>A literal 7 day war, and there was creation on the 7th day.
>The colonists live in a buried Ancient city ship! I mean, The Tower!:P
>The Doctor being taken down a few pegs about his 'no guns/no war' hypocrisy.
>The daughter was plucky and cute, and looked good in leather pants.
>I'm not sure about the gymnastics through the laser field. I was terrified she would do a Zeta-Jones, but that would be more Torchwood than Who. It was impressive, and something odd I'd definitely expect from a Time Lord, but still iffy.
>We may never know about the Doctor's other family, or his grand-daughter and her parents, but at least he acknowledged they were there, and his, and gone.

The Bad:
>Didn't we all see the daughter's death coming a mile away, exactly in that same fashion?
>The daughter didn't even know she had two hearts, how could she know she could survive Death and regenerate? The Doctor said nothing! The Master consciously suppressed regenerating, is there a willful psychological component to it? Did she know she had that option?
>So, the guy with the breathing apparatus died after going underwater? Bah. I assume it was toxic. Poor Martha.
>And isn't her man in Africa? Why was she looking at her ring happily and running inside? To use the satellite phone and call him?
>How many times will the Doctor be separated from the Tardis? How many ways can the writers achieve this episode after episode?

The Ugly:
>'The Search For Spock' plot rehash. Genesis Device. Dead character resurrected by that Device's effects. The energy vapour in her mouth was the same one as in the terraforming mist, plus she didn't change form, so...
>I expected her to die due to some incompatibility with the Doctor's DNA and the machine or some accelerated life cycle, not in the cliche fashion she bought it. I certainly didn't want her to live at the end. I hope her plot thread is wrapped up at the end of the season. Maybe she can go to Rose's reality. They seem like the type who'd need a militant Time Lord around. Just give her a piece of Tardis coral, and she's set!

The Verdict:
Ok episode. Less of the same.
Not so happy with this episode, especially how it seems to be screaming ANOTHER SPINOFF! I wanted this episode to fill in some holes I had with the Who backstory about his grand-daughter, but nope. Next week: Agatha Christie and giant wasps!

MasySyma
June 7th, 2008, 10:11 PM
I enjoyed this episode. It wasn't perfect, but it has many good moments.

The Good:

The Doctor: I liked him this week. I enjoyed seeing him hesitantly open up to the idea of being a father again, and I felt bad for him losing Jenny so soon after meeting her. Her death was a new wound, plus salt in all the other ones.

Donna: She was amazing. She uses her brain, and because she's only friends with the Doctor, she feels free to tell him the truth when he needs it.

The Ok:

Martha: I liked that she had some purpose unlike her visit to Torchwood; I did find her presence in the episode underused though. Donna shows why we should all want to travel with the Doctor, but Martha's part of the episode showed why sometimes we should want to stay at home. I just wish the writers (RTD) had balanced it. Martha gets the Doctor pining, the universe threatening her family, and horrific trips in the Tardis. I can see why she'd look at that ring as a great reason to stay. Her Tardis trips weren't as pleasant as the other companions.

The Bad:

Jenny. I like Jenny, but I didn't like the spinoff feel of the ending, and I agree that her death was super cliche. I also found her a bit too perky, especially at the end. I half expected her to find the Tardis and begin a cheerleading chant "Two, Four, Six, Eight"! I would like to see her again, and I can even handle the idea of her as a new companion, but I'd like her toned down just a bit.

The Hath. I liked that we saw more "alien-looking" aliens again, but I didn't like the fact that they gurgled. That got old quick. I also agree with another poster. It's odd that a fish-like alien would die that quickly in quicksand. It rushed in like it didn't have issues with quicksand and then just died. The episode also never explained how the Hath and the humans communicate. They seemed to have the same funeral ceremony, which is odd for two waring groups where the only survivors has no memories of a time of peace. I agree that this plotline really needed two hours.

The Time War references: The only ugly moment of the episode for me was yet another mention of the Time War. I wouldn't mind them if the lines varied or if we learned knew information, but we don't. We get. "There was a war. Everyone died. It was big. The Doctor lost everything. He is really sad and lonely." We've been getting that every week this season. Just once, I'd like a "and the Doctor didn't want to fight at first" or "and the Doctor's daughter (Susan's mother) died at the battle of whatever" or "the final explosion fused all the universes together at one set point, Gallifrey, which is why the Doctor can never return." A bit of change would be nice.

It was a decent episode but not my favorite: 7/10.

Coco Pops
August 11th, 2008, 04:11 AM
Am I the only one that yelled "Doctor Jenny" at the end of the episode when she flies off in her own ship? I liked Jenny a lot and wish we would see her again.


I don't get the paradox thing. Why hasn't the Doctor got rid of that hand thing? How did that cause the paradox of Jenny?

Gate-builder
August 11th, 2008, 06:04 AM
I don't get the paradox thing. Why hasn't the Doctor got rid of that hand thing? How did that cause the paradox of Jenny?

I'm guessing you haven't seen Journey's End yet? The hand plays a part in that episode. I'm guessing the Doctor wanted to keep it safe in the TARDIS so it couldn't be used against him like the Master was able to do.

I'm not really sure about the paradox in this episode, thinking about all that timey wimey stuff for too long gives me a headache :S

nx01a
August 11th, 2008, 11:53 AM
The hand goes 'ding' when there's stuff.

gateship15
August 20th, 2008, 03:21 AM
the paradox thing always gives me a headache to i reckon that his Daughter coming back to life at the end is important and will be used in another episode

MmmmMcKAy
November 27th, 2008, 06:19 PM
Doctor Who has become my "weep" show. I find myself crying during almost every episode of this fourth series. Of course, The Doctor, with a "daughter" he eventually comes to accept as his really had me going. Glad she survived and has plans to be just like dad.

gateship15
November 27th, 2008, 10:42 PM
i agree i was also crying during this episode because when ever the doctor gets something good he seems to lose it. i just can't wait until he finds out that she can regenerate like her father that will be one fantastic episode

Coco Pops
November 27th, 2008, 11:07 PM
Maybe Jenny returns and becomes the next Doctor



On a totally unrelated note hasn't DT had his way with the ladies. Quite a few he has had his wicked way with :p

I don't think any of the past doctors apart from #4 have done this.

gateship15
November 27th, 2008, 11:32 PM
i don't know if she will become the doctor because she may be from his dna but the doctor has always been male and had the memory of the last doctor. it is true that he has a way with the ladys tho

maneth
May 1st, 2013, 07:12 AM
Yikes, almost 5 years since anyone's posted to this thread! Loved the episode, and the daughter's arc. I do hope we'll see her again.

Coco Pops
May 1st, 2013, 07:21 PM
I would love Jenny to be in the 50th

pjt
December 28th, 2013, 05:07 PM
Unfortunately, she wasn't. But that would have been David Tennant having his wife cast for the show. Or Peter Davison having his daughter in the episode.
Gorgia Moffet being the Doctor's daughter playing the Doctor's daughter, and at the same time being the Doctor's wife made things a bit too complicated.

Well, to be honest not that much, I'm just having a bit of fun here. :D