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Muh_tuttles
April 20th, 2008, 12:09 AM
Hey all,

This is my first post and I specifically made a user and registered to ask this question: Was anyone else annoyed at how Daniel asked the same questions of Morgan that Jack asked of Daniel when Jack was being killed, brought back to life, and then killed again?

I found it incredibly annoying that he would turn on her for doing the same thing that he did to Jack. Jack was going through such horrible torture (worse than Daniel) and Daniel didn't do much and when he did something, he took his own sweet time doing it.

Honestly:mckay:

I'll go introduce myself now.

Muh_tuttles

g.o.d
April 20th, 2008, 12:21 AM
that's because they can't interfere with lower planes.

this sentence explains everything ;)
(Abyss, 606)

Daniel: "The hardest part of being who or what I am is having the power to change the things I want to change and knowing that I can't..." (Jack gives him a look.) "Even when I'm certain, even when it's...absolutely clear to me, even when it affects the people I care about..." (Jack rolls his eyes and turns his head to the side.) "Because for all I can do...I'm no more qualified to play God than the Goa'uld are."

Muh_tuttles
April 20th, 2008, 12:31 AM
So then why did he bother asking when he knew the answer? He should know better than anyone else.

Cree
April 20th, 2008, 12:37 AM
because he wasasking to help and that in turn would help the ascended so it wouldnt just be saving a lower plane life it would be saving there on asses!

madaboutdanny
April 20th, 2008, 01:33 AM
No, I wasn't annoyed. And Daniel in Abyss helped Jack, even after a while, and helped Teal'c and helped in Full Circle and now he is just asking Morgana to help them because doing that she help her people, is so simple.......

NIKIN
April 20th, 2008, 02:12 AM
Whether he helped Jack or not when he was being tortured by Ba'al, that was not a matter of stopping the goa'uld once and for all, whereas they did have a chance to stop the ori for good there. Besides she did help in the end, she helped Teal'c get better, and knew he would get them out of the cells, Daniel just didn't know that

Also you have to remember that Daniel couldn't remember his time as an ascended being, and so he didn't know he did the same thing to Jack. Also he couldn't read it in a mission report because nobody knew that Jack even saw him until Full Circle, and it doesn't seem the kind of thing to say "welcome back Daniel, oh and by the way you did bugger all when I was held captive by Ba'al and was being tortured again and again"

jdjunkie
April 20th, 2008, 03:19 AM
Hey all,

Jack was going through such horrible torture (worse than Daniel) and Daniel didn't do much and when he did something, he took his own sweet time doing it.



Didn't do much, eh?

Didn't find a way to negotiate his way round the limitations of the Ascended regs to save Jack?

Didn't plant the idea that would give O'Neill "a fighting chance" in Teal'c's kel-no-reeming mind?

No you're right. He was probably off enjoying himself at some Ascended barbecue when he disappeared out of Jack's cell, because rescuing Jack from endless torture clearly wasn't top of his list of things to do. :rolleyes:

And, no. I didn't find his plea to Morgan annoying in light of the above. I found it moving and true and an interestingly conceived character beat.

I did enjoy Ark of Truth a lot. :)

Master_Templar
April 20th, 2008, 03:34 AM
Daniel would be fairly pissed with Ancients by now, he has always sort of had the "Well, it is their way" sort of ethos, but it looked like at the end of the Ark of Truth he had finally had enough and snapped.

Was rather cool.

Muh_tuttles
April 20th, 2008, 03:36 AM
Ok, ok, point well and truly taken. But I still find it annoying;).

And, for that last post, Daniel didn't do much in helping Jack not give up hope. He said things he knew Jack wouldn't understand (he spent long enough with him to know better) and he also didn't give Jack any hope at first. He gave Jack the whole mumbo-jumbo of cooking, fire and meals and rather obviously Jack couldn't understand it. Therefore, he gave irritation, not comfort. I would have said first thing "look, I can't do much, but I am going to try my hardest to find a way to get you out of this". But nooooo, Daniel doesn't do that. He just says he can't do anything, causing O'Neill to lose hope. And hope is almost as important as being rescued. Hope causes people to continue on and to keep fighting. Without it life is nothing.

Said a bit too much a think. But it's just my opinion. Daniel was great to finally come through for O'Neill and to use his power in such a way. However, I still don't think he was very nice before that and didn't meet Jack on his level (being much lower than an ascended being).

FallenAngelII
April 20th, 2008, 02:04 PM
Also you have to remember that Daniel couldn't remember his time as an ascended being, and so he didn't know he did the same thing to Jack. Also he couldn't read it in a mission report because nobody knew that Jack even saw him until Full Circle, and it doesn't seem the kind of thing to say "welcome back Daniel, oh and by the way you did bugger all when I was held captive by Ba'al and was being tortured again and again"
Even though he didn't know it himself, he was still being a pot. If faced with the same situation, he would do (and have done) pretty much the same thing. Try to circumvent the rules to eventually save people.

No matter how big the action is (saving entire galaxies, saving just one man), rules need to be followed. One exception can lead to another and the next thing we know, we might end up with the Ancients and the Others becoming Ori-like. Remember that short little Jewish man we allowed to do his stuff for a while? Well, he just happened to kill millions of Jews.

The Ancients have rules for a very good reason: The Ori. An old quote reads "Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely".

People keep giving the Ancients grief for not stepping in and magically solving our problems every single time something happens because we're supposedly their 2nd evolution. So what?! What gives us any right to demand they help us? I mean, what gives them the right to deny the antagonists a fighting chance? Because they'll be supressing us? Tough luck, survival of the strongest (or just smartest, I guess).

Mitchell82
April 20th, 2008, 03:56 PM
No, I wasn't annoyed. And Daniel in Abyss helped Jack, even after a while, and helped Teal'c and helped in Full Circle and now he is just asking Morgana to help them because doing that she help her people, is so simple.......

Agreed. The battle with the Ori was coming to a head and he had to try one last time to get them to help especially if it was the last thing he did.

ECN
April 23rd, 2008, 10:03 AM
I've wondered if Daniel even REMEMBERS that conversation he had with Jack.

If not, it's VERY interesting he'd say almost EXACTLY the same thing to Morgan.

Great minds...

Now THAT'S scarey.
(To think Jack's been hiding a great mind all this time. :p )

Mitchell82
April 23rd, 2008, 04:52 PM
I've wondered if Daniel even REMEMBERS that conversation he had with Jack.

If not, it's VERY interesting he'd say almost EXACTLY the same thing to Morgan.

Great minds...

Now THAT'S scarey.
(To think Jack's been hiding a great mind all this time. :p )
I doubt he does. Most of the stuff he did as an ascended being are lost memories.

Zamboni
April 25th, 2008, 10:54 AM
So then why did he bother asking when he knew the answer? He should know better than anyone else.Because Oma erased all his memories and Daniel's brain is totally frakked from all the times he ascended, descended, brain probed by replicators, brain probed by Sam, and brain transfered to another galaxy.

Frankly it's amazing he can still remember his name. Or maybe he can't, maybe that's why Teal'C always calls him "Daniel Jackson", so Daniel knows his full name...

RepliVeggie
April 28th, 2008, 11:13 AM
There is a huge difference between Daniel helping Jack, one person. And Morgan helping Daniel which would in turn help billions of people and ascended beings. Daniel felt the time for their non-interference rules to end for the time being.

Mitchell82
April 30th, 2008, 03:53 PM
There is a huge difference between Daniel helping Jack, one person. And Morgan helping Daniel which would in turn help billions of people and ascended beings. Daniel felt the time for their non-interference rules to end for the time being.

Exactly and they should.

DeltaFlyer
May 1st, 2008, 09:45 AM
Hey there, just spotted this thread.

It may be worth taking in to account that when Jack was captured by Ba'al, Daniel hadn't been that long ascended (in the grand scheme of things) He was still filled with the wonder of what he was experiencing, and this was also the first time he'd actually taken the step to interact with the 'Human' plane of existence. At this point, he had no idea as to exactly how much he could get away with before the 'Others' or Oma would step in and haul him away. If that were to happen, he'd have no chance of trying to help Jack. So he was testing the water, so to speak. He did manage to give Jack that fighting chance, knowing that by doing it the way he did, he'd be in a position to step in again should it be required of him. Remember, Daniel thinks 'outside the box'

In Changeling, he was a little more pro-active, because he felt a little more confident in knowing how much leeway he had. By Full Circle, he was prepared to take even more action, to the point of helping the Abydonians and appearing to his entire team, and challenging Anubis, at which point, he'd way stepped over the line and Oma had no choice to step in to save him from the consequences he'd face had it been the 'Others' who'd stopped him.

In Threads, he had no compunctions regarding challenging the others, and it was only because he wasn't actually ascended at that point (he was between planes and therefore had no 'powers') that he couldn't take on Anubis himself, even though he was quite clearly prepared to do so. Oma realised that the 'Others' were wrong to let Anubis continue unchecked, and stepped in herself.

In the Pegasus Project, he challenged Morgan, and she risked her own position to give him the information, only to be pulled away and banished by the 'Others' at the last second.

Ark of Truth, he'd totally had enough of the attitude of the 'Others' Morgan had been helping him by appearing to him in the guise of Merlin, he was at the end of his tether, both emotionally and physically, he could see no way out, he had nothing to loose by pleading with her, arguing with her to help.

Each time he got bolder in his dealings with the Ancients, learning from prior experience (no pun intended)

Anyway, that just my take on it :)