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GateWorld
April 10th, 2008, 01:29 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/4061.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">BATTLESTAR GALACTICA SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">FAITH</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 406</FONT>
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With the Demetrius crew at each other's throats, Kara takes Leoben to the wreckage of a Cylon base ship to follow the only lead she has left. During her cancer treatment President Roslin meets a fellow patient who is also dying.

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Pharaoh Atem
May 9th, 2008, 07:03 PM
well kara finalyl got her answer .....but i wonder how she will deal with it.

loved the roslin adama moment at the end. me think geata is going to ever sdie or lose his leg
and why didn't sam touch the control panel ......he seems to be the only one that is accepting that he is a cylon and wants to be one with his culture

Lady Snow
May 9th, 2008, 07:03 PM
Dammit, Gaeta better not lose his leg.

Trek_Girl42
May 9th, 2008, 07:05 PM
Best episode of the season. :D

I absolutely adore Nana Visitor and the cancer humour and discussions. Absolutely lovely. *sniffle*

And Gaeta! Yikes! I had to set my dinner aside after that opening. Yuck! :S And the body count! Four deaths! :eek:

And absolutely loved the hybrid talk, as always. And Leoben. And Anders trying to stick his hand in the watery computer controls. Wonder if the base star would have gone berserk had he.....

And the philosophical chat in pajamas at the end was adorable. :D

And next week's ep looks insane. :D

Trek_Girl42
May 9th, 2008, 07:06 PM
Dammit, Gaeta better not lose his leg.Poor Gaeta. If he does he and Tigh can wander around like pirates together. :P

daniel9
May 9th, 2008, 07:06 PM
lol gaeta losing his leg seems like another version of tigh losing his eye. hm bald rosslins, sixs kissing sixs, the ship of lights, jupiter at last, more of the hybrid prophecy. i wonder if the hybrid could tell anders was one of the finale five?

Lady Snow
May 9th, 2008, 07:07 PM
I also loved Sam's expression when the others were all "The Final Five MUST know the way back to Earth, right?!"

Priceless.

Pharaoh Atem
May 9th, 2008, 07:09 PM
I also loved Sam's expression when the others were all "The Final Five MUST know the way back to Earth, right?!"

Priceless.

the 5 might know the way and not know it yet until all 5 are together ... .another switch perhaps

daniel9
May 9th, 2008, 07:09 PM
im guessing the 3 which will lead them to the 5=tigh, tyrol and anders.

Lady Snow
May 9th, 2008, 07:11 PM
im guessing the 3 which will lead them to the 5=tigh, tyrol and anders.

I'm guessing it's D'Anna.

Arative
May 9th, 2008, 07:11 PM
Big revelation that the final 5 came from the 13th colony? So what does that make them and the other 7? What does that make the 13th colony?

Am I the only one that wanted to rub Roslin's bald head?

Pharaoh Atem
May 9th, 2008, 07:11 PM
im guessing the 3 which will lead them to the 5=tigh, tyrol and anders.

3 D'anna

5 tory,sam,tigh,galen ..???

Trek_Girl42
May 9th, 2008, 07:11 PM
lol gaeta losing his leg seems like another version of tigh losing his eye. hm bald rosslins, sixs kissing sixs, the ship of lights, jupiter at last, more of the hybrid prophecy. i wonder if the hybrid could tell anders was one of the finale five?Interesting how Anders is continually flirting with being "outed" gotta wonder if he just wants everyone to know for once and for all, but he's not quite able to push himself over the edge by actually saying it.....yet. I would like it if that were to happen though. But from here it looks like D'anna will have to be the one to spill the beans.....I do think that Anders being a cylon is a positive thing for him- that when he's out he'll accept it similar fashion to Athena.

And seeing Roslin without the wig was a shocker. :eek:
I also loved Sam's expression when the others were all "The Final Five MUST know the way back to Earth, right?!"

Priceless.Hah! Yes! I absolutely love Michael Trucco this season- he's gotta be having so much fun with this stuff.

Pharaoh Atem
May 9th, 2008, 07:12 PM
i wonder if mary really cut her hair????

Berg417448
May 9th, 2008, 07:14 PM
Big revelation that the final 5 came from the 13th colony? So what does that make them and the other 7? What does that make the 13th colony?

Am I the only one that wanted to rub Roslin's bald head?

I have suspected for quite some time that the name of the 13th Tribe was Cylon. It is the only tribe that we have not been told the name of.

Trek_Girl42
May 9th, 2008, 07:15 PM
i wonder if mary really cut her hair????Doubt it. She did have her normal beautiful hair in the dream scene.

And I love that next week, judging by the previewwe have more opera house visions! :D:D:D

daniel9
May 9th, 2008, 07:18 PM
lol no comments about jupiter and the ship of lights?

DigiFluid
May 9th, 2008, 07:18 PM
Poor Gaeta. If he does he and Tigh can wander around like pirates together. :P

Hahaha....I laughed :D




Great episode, loved every minute of it. The only spot where it dragged a little was the gun-to-Six's-head standoff, but the scene wasn't terribly long anyway so it's forgivable. I'm also getting generally annoyed with the death-a-week business. I'm quite literally going into each episode every week trying to guess who will buy it this time. Point is....it's becoming an extremely predictable plot point, something that Galactica's never been known for and really doesn't suit.

The hybrid stuff was pretty terrific. Nice to have some clarification from her, 'the missing Three will lead you to the five whose home is of the 13th' or however it was exactly. Can't wait to see Xena again, I was disappointed when she got boxed. I wonder if she'll know who all five are, or if she'll only out the one she apologized to in the Temple of Five (since that's the only one she seemed to recognize). Also very cool that this hybrid repeated the message of the one in Razor. I wonder how they'll treat it, as a serious danger or as Cylon bull****?

I was very happy to see more of Anders for a change too. We've seen so much of Saul and the Chief for the last few weeks and near-zero screen time with Anders. I don't know why he'd be so hesitant to put his hand in the watery controls.... I'm sure every colonial who's been on a Basestar has stuck their hand in the water to see if anything happens. And if the ship went berserk, who cares, he could just say the ship is damaged and has no idea what he touched.

Nana Visitor's guest appearance was nice too. As usual she played her role to perfection, and the teeth prosthetics she was wearing were fabulous as well. Besides that, she provided a very nice plot point for Roslin to start coming around re: Baltar. Previously, I couldn't even conceive of any kind of reconciliation there.


Can't say I have any love for children or child actors in general, but I can't wait for next week. How will the old man react when a crippled and half-wrecked Basestar jumps into the vicinity of the fleet?

Lady Snow
May 9th, 2008, 07:18 PM
I have suspected for quite some time that the name of the 13th Tribe was Cylon. It is the only tribe that we have not been told the name of.

That's curious - haven't the RTF called it "Earth," based on Pythia, since the miniseries? Maybe they came up with a different name for themselves in the millennia since then or something.

DigiFluid
May 9th, 2008, 07:20 PM
lol no comments about jupiter and the ship of lights?

Good point, I forgot about that.

Regarding the ship of lights, I can't remember when she first mentioned that. Was it when she arrived back at the fleet, before this whole Demetrius (mis)adventure? Her having painted really doesn't mean much though, if Leoben had just come from there and was then helping her paint it. Means something if she'd mentioned it before, but like I said I can't remember.

Was the gas giant Jupiter? I know she'd said gas giant before, but as far as we know (in RL I mean) gas giants are pretty common...

Berg417448
May 9th, 2008, 07:20 PM
That's curious - haven't the RTF called it "Earth," based on Pythia, since the miniseries? Maybe they came up with a different name for themselves in the millennia since then or something.

They called the planet Earth but the tribe has never been named.

Pharaoh Atem
May 9th, 2008, 07:21 PM
lol no comments about jupiter and the ship of lights?

kinda cool that the cylons might guide the fleet to earth

kharn the betrayer
May 9th, 2008, 07:21 PM
Anders Shot L!... ok he shot L's english voice actor thats almost as bad!

I quite liked this episode alot for reasons people have already discussed

im surprised the 8's didnt bring up what happened with Boomer to Athena when they confronter her

also the whole painting/base star was very ship of lightish more so than anything else in the season so far...

Pharaoh Atem
May 9th, 2008, 07:21 PM
They called the planet Earth but the tribe has never been named.

you know i never thought of this before. we really don't know the name ...

Berg417448
May 9th, 2008, 07:23 PM
lol no comments about jupiter and the ship of lights?

I thought the "ship of lights" was the damaged cylon base ship.

Arative
May 9th, 2008, 07:24 PM
I have suspected for quite some time that the name of the 13th Tribe was Cylon. It is the only tribe that we have not been told the name of.

Does that mean that the 13th tribe was all Cylon (as in robotic) and created the 5 to infiltrate the 12 tribes and it just so happens that the humans had created their robotic version of Cylon's who in turn created 7 skin jobs?

I just don't see how the final 5 can be from Earth and be part of the 12 models of skinjob Cylon's.

hellrasinb
May 9th, 2008, 07:26 PM
Well.... where to start

[1a] We get the conclusion to the Demetrious arc
[1b] We get an Roslin arc that deals with her and another person suffering
terminal cancer

But onto the review

This week's episode is chock full of surprises, resolutions and revelations

Starbuck, Leoben, Sam, Athena and one other officer jump to the location of the base ship - Remember all the paintings Kara's been makin well it seems she sees things before they happen. Parts of the hybrid from Razor are continuing to fall into place for the human race and the Cylon. The hybrid on
the damaged base ship hits Kara and the viewer with a massive revelation.
"You are the Harbinger of Death Kara Thrace you will lead them all to their end" is a direct quote from Razor. And the grand father of wtf is: The 5 are from the 13 Colony that the fleets been lookin for since day 1.

The cancer story in the episode that centered on Roslin and another women
suffering through the last stages of her life was handled well I thought. Which makes it all harder I thought given that my opinion is that Roslin's coming passing is what might unhinge the Admiral.


The 13 colonies were expelled from Kobal

- 12 formed the 12 colonies of man
- The 13th colonied Earth
- The 12 colonied created the 1st Cylon generation 40+ years ago
- The Humanoid Cylon's were created at some point before or during CW 1
- The Ice planet that Husker crashed on during the last day of the war was possibly where experiments were conducted to create the Navigational center
for future base ships {Hybrids}

Final Thoughts: If The 5 are from Earth and as Ron Moore has said in an article and the like that the 5 are fundamentally different from the 7 then
that means....

Trek_Girl42
May 9th, 2008, 07:29 PM
Nana Visitor's guest appearance was nice too. As usual she played her role to perfection, and the teeth prosthetics she was wearing were fabulous as well. Besides that, she provided a very nice plot point for Roslin to start coming around re: Baltar. Previously, I couldn't even conceive of any kind of reconciliation there.


Can't say I have any love for children or child actors in general, but I can't wait for next week. How will the old man react when a crippled and half-wrecked Basestar jumps into the vicinity of the fleet?
Nana Visitor just plain owns. :D I only wish she could have a appeared more, but she was a wonderfully developed character for such a brief role- that could have been simply a plot device. And the fact that I buy Roslin starting to question Baltar's teachings.....I certainly wouldn't have believed that possible last week. I just continue to be extremely fascinated by this whole religious belief storyline. :zelenka25:

Regarding children- was there a child in next week's preview? I don't recall one. :P
That's curious - haven't the RTF called it "Earth," based on Pythia, since the miniseries? Maybe they came up with a different name for themselves in the millennia since then or something.What's "RTF"? :o



I can already tell that this is going to be one of those episodes that I'm going to get hung up on the DVDs when they come out and just keep going back to rewatch..... :P

Arative
May 9th, 2008, 07:29 PM
lol no comments about jupiter and the ship of lights?

Was that Jupiter? I didn't really recognize it as Jupiter. My first thought when they flashed on the painting is that the Cylon's were tricking Kara by staging the scene she painted.

Berg417448
May 9th, 2008, 07:30 PM
Does that mean that the 13th tribe was all Cylon (as in robotic) and created the 5 to infiltrate the 12 tribes and it just so happens that the humans had created their robotic version of Cylon's who in turn created 7 skin jobs?

I just don't see how the final 5 can be from Earth and be part of the 12 models of skinjob Cylon's.

The 13th might have been both human and cylon. The final 5 are likely part of a previous cycle of Cylon. "All of this has happened before and will happen again".
Remember back in season one when boomer said that the Cylons know more about the human's religion than they do? I think the Cylons have some limited knowledge about the existence of the 5 from the previous ages. This might explain why the Cylons decided to find Earth themselves and make it their new home.

DigiFluid
May 9th, 2008, 07:32 PM
Does that mean that the 13th tribe was all Cylon (as in robotic) and created the 5 to infiltrate the 12 tribes and it just so happens that the humans had created their robotic version of Cylon's who in turn created 7 skin jobs?

I just don't see how the final 5 can be from Earth and be part of the 12 models of skinjob Cylon's.

I don't think we've got enough info on this to speculate with yet... As best I can tell, the only pieces of Cylon evolutionary history we know are:

- the Five are from the 13th tribe ('Faith')
- the Colonies created the Cylon machines, who in turn rebelled and then left (miniseries)
- the Cylons were experimenting with genetics and other fleshiness ('Razor') for evolutionary paths
- 40 years later the Cylons showed up, with the machine models deferring to flawless human models (miniseries)

Could it be that the Five were sent from Earth to seek out the rest of the human race? Perhaps they in turn created 7 more models so as to have one of each model assigned to the twelve colonies, and the 'merging' with the machine models was just an accident of history? The seven don't know about the Five, and are programmed not to think about them, so it stands to reason that if this speculation were fact, they wouldn't be aware of the mission of the original five.



And yes, I did just discourage speculation and then go on to do so, all within the same post. Sorry :o

Pharaoh Atem
May 9th, 2008, 07:33 PM
the cylons themselves have just as much riding on finding earth as the fleet does.

and i think that why they said that the 2 great races would join as one" or something like that

Trek_Girl42
May 9th, 2008, 07:35 PM
The 13th might have been both human and cylon. The final 5 are likely part of a previous cycle of Cylon. "All of this has happened before and will happen again".
Remember back in season one when boomer said that the Cylons know more about the human's religion than they do? I think the Cylons have some limited knowledge about the existence of the 5 from the previous ages. This might explain why the Cylons decided to find Earth themselves and make it their new home.Good hypothesis. That would be pretty sweet if the human/cylon alliance arrived at earth and found humans and Cylons alike living in relative peace. Of course there'd be a twist..... :D

*shivvers* But I both love and hate that we're they're getting closer. :D

Arative
May 9th, 2008, 07:37 PM
The 13th might have been both human and cylon. The final 5 are likely part of a previous cycle of Cylon. "All of this has happened before and will happen again".
Remember back in season one when boomer said that the Cylons know more about the human's religion than they do? I think the Cylons have some limited knowledge about the existence of the 5 from the previous ages. This might explain why the Cylons decided to find Earth themselves and make it their new home.

I suppose that is possible but every thing we know of Colonial history is that they left Kobol for the 12 colonies and earlier a 13th tribe left Kobol for Earth.

So did the cycle take place just on Earth and the 5 cylons then travel to the colonies on a mission, start a rebellion among the robotic cylons and create the skinjobs to start another cycle?

daniel9
May 9th, 2008, 07:37 PM
I don't think we've got enough info on this to speculate with yet... As best I can tell, the only pieces of Cylon evolutionary history we know are:

- the Five are from the 13th tribe ('Faith')
- the Colonies created the Cylon machines, who in turn rebelled and then left (miniseries)
- the Cylons were experimenting with genetics and other fleshiness ('Razor') for evolutionary paths
- 40 years later the Cylons showed up, with the machine models deferring to flawless human models (miniseries)


lol you forgot

all this has happened before, and it will happen, and again, and again, and again...

Pharaoh Atem
May 9th, 2008, 07:37 PM
wasn't to big on what they gave Nana Visitor for a role

Trek_Girl42
May 9th, 2008, 07:41 PM
Could it be that the Five were sent from Earth to seek out the rest of the human race? Perhaps they in turn created 7 more models so as to have one of each model assigned to the twelve colonies, and the 'merging' with the machine models was just an accident of history? The seven don't know about the Five, and are programmed not to think about them, so it stands to reason that if this speculation were fact, they wouldn't be aware of the mission of the original five.But if they're "assigned" to each of the twelve colonies why wouldn't the seven be allowed to think of the five? If you start assigning each cylon a colony Caprica, for example, might wonder who the Aerelon (sp?) cylon is if it's one of the "he who shall not be named" cylons.

Which is the remaining hang-up that I have of cylons having some sort of relation with each colony. Why wouldn't it all be an equal playing field type deal where everyone knows who everyone is?

Arative
May 9th, 2008, 07:41 PM
I don't think we've got enough info on this to speculate with yet... As best I can tell, the only pieces of Cylon evolutionary history we know are:

- the Five are from the 13th tribe ('Faith')
- the Colonies created the Cylon machines, who in turn rebelled and then left (miniseries)
- the Cylons were experimenting with genetics and other fleshiness ('Razor') for evolutionary paths
- 40 years later the Cylons showed up, with the machine models deferring to flawless human models (miniseries)

Could it be that the Five were sent from Earth to seek out the rest of the human race? Perhaps they in turn created 7 more models so as to have one of each model assigned to the twelve colonies, and the 'merging' with the machine models was just an accident of history? The seven don't know about the Five, and are programmed not to think about them, so it stands to reason that if this speculation were fact, they wouldn't be aware of the mission of the original five.



And yes, I did just discourage speculation and then go on to do so, all within the same post. Sorry :o

See now you got me speculating. If the 5 came from Earth, where a cylon/human cycle occured, they arrive at the colonies and see the toasters had rebelled, create the other 7 models, who then rebel themselves and take over and the 5 still have some control program the 7 not to think about them and forget them and the 5 integrate into human society to await the coming cylon war?

DigiFluid
May 9th, 2008, 07:47 PM
lol you forgot

all this has happened before, and it will happen, and again, and again, and again...
I didn't forget, I couldn't figure out how to fit it in and was hoping no-one would notice the omission ;) That said though, there's something to be said for cyclical conceptions of existence. "All this has happened before, and all this will happen again" doesn't necessarily need to be taken literally, it could be a philosophical statement.



But if they're "assigned" to each of the twelve colonies why wouldn't the seven be allowed to think of the five? If you start assigning each cylon a colony Caprica, for example, might wonder who the Aerelon (sp?) cylon is if it's one of the "who who shall not be named" cylons.

Which is the remaining hang-up that I have of cylons having some sort of relation with each colony. Why wouldn't it all be an equal playing field type deal where everyone knows who everyone is?

Well, Tory seems to be under the impression that they in particular are literally perfect creations. Possibly, if they somehow made the seven themselves, they regarded their creations as less perfect and decided to maintain control somehow?

As far as "the one who shall not be named" business, I think personally that they're referring specifically to the divine there. Each of the gods has a name (Zeus, Artemis, etc), whereas God itself is nameless. We've previously heard from the colonials' scriptures that the Temple of Five is for the priests of "the one who shall not be named," which to me says that this one is not one of the unknown models.

God(s) I love this show.

Lady Snow
May 9th, 2008, 07:49 PM
What's "RTF"? :o

Rag-Tag Fleet. :)

I'm excited for the second showing, which starts in ten minutes or so. I'll have more reactions later, maybe even tomorrow.

marielabbott
May 9th, 2008, 07:53 PM
I found last week's episode underwhelming--this week's was overwhelming. ;) So much happened I can hardly take it all in.

The opening minutes were intense, and I hope poor Felix survives, and survives intact. He looked like death in a few of the later shots.

There was just so much going on...the Final Five are from Earth? :eek: Starbuck--what do those cyrptic words of the hybrid mean to her? What was Athena thinking when she turned away from her dying model-sister? Why are they killing someone in every ep this season? :p

I loved Nana Visitor as the dying cancer patient. A brief friendship through the agony of shared suffering. I'm still unsure of Baltar as a religious figure; I'll have to see where this goes.

Anders has really become a main focus for me this season, and he had an incredible range of emotions this ep. Shooting Felix in loyalty to Kara, almost touching the basestar's computer interface, nearly killing a Cylon in retribution, giving comfort to a dying one, learning he was supposedly from the lost colony and should know the way there. What a day. :p

A nice quiet scene to end an action packed episode. Adama and Roslin pledge to find Earth, together.

Xicer
May 9th, 2008, 07:54 PM
Well an interesting episode indeed!

Loved the way the Demetrius arc went and we got a ton of revelations. The Roslin side-story was good too and I liked Nana Visitor's guest appearance, but I felt the story in general dragged on a bit.

Well now, the final five are from Earth. I'm not really sure what to make of this but everyone else's speculations sound interesting.

I'm loving Anders this season. He seems to keep trying to act like any normal human being, calmly trying not to draw attention to himself but at the same time it seems hes the one thats being most affected. Tigh and Tyrol haven't really showed much change, and Tory has gone a bit insane. But for Anders, he stalled when he was chasing a Cylon raider during the season's first episode, and was scanned and his eyes actually turned red. Then just during this episode, anyone else notice how much Anders stalled when he was trying to shoot the Six model in the head? He just couldn't do it, Natalie had to do it for him. And then of course the Cylon console in the hybrid room was drawing him in. Anders definitely seems like the one who has the strongest connection to the other Cylons.

DigiFluid
May 9th, 2008, 07:55 PM
See now you got me speculating. If the 5 came from Earth, where a cylon/human cycle occured, they arrive at the colonies and see the toasters had rebelled, create the other 7 models, who then rebel themselves and take over and the 5 still have some control program the 7 not to think about them and forget them and the 5 integrate into human society to await the coming cylon war?

Holy run-on-sentence Batman

So the general idea of the quoted text is that the phrasing simply means that a similar sequence of events happens over and over? I find that hard to come to terms with, since the Cylons seem to know exactly who Kara is and what she's all about. I have a really hard time believing that events would play out so similarly that they'd be able to peg a role down to a single person quite so easily.

daniel9
May 9th, 2008, 07:57 PM
I didn't forget, I couldn't figure out how to fit it in and was hoping no-one would notice the omission ;) That said though, there's something to be said for cyclical conceptions of existence. "All this has happened before, and all this will happen again" doesn't necessarily need to be taken literally, it could be a philosophical statement.


lol its starting to seem very literal as time goes on. ig uess we have to wait til the end of the series to see how it all plays out

Trek_Girl42
May 9th, 2008, 08:00 PM
I didn't forget, I couldn't figure out how to fit it in and was hoping no-one would notice the omission ;) That said though, there's something to be said for cyclical conceptions of existence. "All this has happened before, and all this will happen again" doesn't necessarily need to be taken literally, it could be a philosophical statement.




Well, Tory seems to be under the impression that they in particular are literally perfect creations. Possibly, if they somehow made the seven themselves, they regarded their creations as less perfect and decided to maintain control somehow?I'll buy it. Perhaps the final five get a little too big for their britches, re-program the seven for some purpose.....like deleting whatever relevant "files" they had regarding the five but didn't fully delete those "files" from the recycle bin. Hence why they retain knowledge of the existence of the final five, but can't access who they are. Probably a very bad analogy, technically speaking, but..... Then perhaps the final final cylon decided it was superior to the other four, and wiped their minds and gave them special programming? Perhaps the final final cylon believed that he/she was divine. Bah.....talking myself round in circles. Love it. :P
As far as "the one who shall not be named" business, I think personally that they're referring specifically to the divine there. Each of the gods has a name (Zeus, Artemis, etc), whereas God itself is nameless. We've previously heard from the colonials' scriptures that the Temple of Five is for the priests of "the one who shall not be named," which to me says that this one is not one of the unknown models.

God(s) I love this show.Heh, typo on what was intended as a little Harry Potter reference.....I'm typing too fast. I'm now very confused as to where you're going with that. :P


Rag-Tag Fleet. :)

I'm excited for the second showing, which starts in ten minutes or so. I'll have more reactions later, maybe even tomorrow.
*headdesk* Thanks. :o

Major Fischer
May 9th, 2008, 08:01 PM
Given the degree that I did not like last weeks episode I was rather dubious about this one, though I had more hope for it knowing that we were going to come back to the cylon storyline which in all honesty is what I've found most compelling about the entire season.

So I guess I will start with the cylon plot, which I would say was the A plot of this episode. The lead in scene from last weeks episode and this week's opening scene feel very different. I don't know if it's the quality of the writing or different writers or what. It was as if Starbuck suddenly became more sane, and while I can buy that the shooting of Gaeta was something that would snap her out of it, the entire turn of events if watched back to back would seem odd.

If the raptor plan was plausable to start with, why hadn't it been brought up before? Why hadn't Kara brought it up? It's pretty clear that everyone including Kara thinks Anders is a little batty after he shoots Gaeta, so why are they so eager to take him into a potentially difficult and touchy situation on the cylon baseship? Was he a really nessecary character for that mission or did the writers just want to put him there.

Speaking of the writing, Gaeta's leg and health I think were an unnessecary addition to emphasizing the jump clock. Too much of the muchness. The stakes were already high and adding Felix to that mix just deminished his character.

The burning basetars and wounded remaining one are Kara's vision. Didn't see that coming. I guess that ends the fan discussions about the Ships of Light since we now know they were cylon ships all along. Does this mean we've come to the end of Kara's visions because she didn't have any other visions to earth.

I would like to comment about how amazing the visual effects are this season. They are doing some very special stuff in being reductive, in going down to the small detail. The voyage through the destroyed and burning basestars was pretty amazing stuff. I loved how they were bleeding. Not sure the explosion was nessecary, much like Gaeta's leg it seemed like a false note in the script. Like the writers didn't kow how to get form seeing the basetar to having the raptor land so they decided to make a minicliffhanger and jump to the basetar landing bay.

Athena is a hero to the Eights. I love how they are such sheep and she hates them for it. Pick a side and stick with it. It's a turn of plot I didn't expect and I like that it gives Grace a chance to prove that she can really differentiate those characters in a way I don't think she's been entirely successful in doing before. She is so caught up in being human that it seems almost unfair to ask her suddnely to be a cylon again.

Six and Red Head Chick who's name I can't spell off the top of my head. I found that scene endlessly fascinating on a number of levels. Has Natalie never been killed that she thinks that the other Six should be able to get past what was clearly a pretty horrific death. Drowning in a septic tank is got to be the worst way I can think of to go, and Boothbey seems to have had a certain sadistic streak about killing cylons on New Caprica. I'm glad they paid that off. I found her death to have a bit more impact than Mathias' last week in part because it was bound to happen.

You couldn't have brought those people togeather and expect there not to be ill feelings. It's said that the most dangerous time for a soldier is the time right after the firing is supposed to stop. The first few minutes after surrendar, the first few hours after a cease fire. You can't have thrown togeather two races of people who have been hell bent on killing each other and not expect someone to die.

On a film production level I'd love to know how they handled the intimate dialogue between Six and Natalie, and the kiss, though I suppose the fact that the six was bent over by handers and her hair was in her face means they could have used a double. Except Tricia's face is not exactly one you could double that easily. Oddly enough the scene had a lot of the same feelings to it that Tigh and Ellen had, though admittedly much faster and not as deeply. You can tell how much working with the humans is eating at Natalie. I wonder if she really thought through her comment about not needing the Raptor crew. How was she going to make peace with the Colonials if she had just killed a bunch of them to staal a raptor?

I still love Natalie. She's still Six and Laura Roslin's love child. I want to have Tricia Helfer's internet babies. I'm just in awh of her.

Starbuck did not annoy me for once this season. I was getting very tired of the bug eyed crazy look and I rather sympathized with her in the hybrid scenes. It seemed a little strange to me that no one else seemed to ract to "Kara Thrace will be the harbringer of death" bit given they discussed the rest of the sentence preceeding it. If they take the hybrid's statement on face value as they appeared to, shouldn't they take all of it?

Again, I love the damaged basehip vfx, and rather liked the scene between Helo and Athena when they show back up again, but it leads me back to the same question the fans have been asking for a while. Why are these two not talking about their kid? You know, the shape of things to come? We're still dealing with the fighting Agathons being out of character in this reguard.

The Roslin B plot... it was so shocking to see Mary with no hair. Though the bald cap wasn't the best fitting one I've ever seen. You can tell she's got so much hair under it. It just made her have a very strange shape to her head. The scene with Tory would feel more touching if whe hadn't been watching Tory betray Roslin with Baltar for the last three episodes. It's difficult to come back to the idea that Tory is such a good aide to Roslin given we haven't seen Roslin with Tory in a while.

Speaking of not seeing people, while I was happy to do without Baltar, anyone wondering where Lee is given that RDM kept saying how much Lee came into his own when they took him out of the uniform? At least when they lost Lee in the second half of season 2 and three... they didn't physically misplace Jamie Bamber.

The scenes between Roslin and Emily were really touching, and this is yet another example of RDM proving that the actors from Star Trek were often so much better than the material they were given. The conversation and the end reminded me a great deal of what I've seen in cancer deaths and it had a ring of authencity. When my mathmetician stepfather was at that stage of his cancer he woke up from a dream all euphoric and told my mother that they were going to let him be a complex number in the next life. It was a very sweet and very nerdy moment.

I love the idea that this is what Roslin needed to find some truth back to her path again, and it coincided nicely with the prophecy from the hybrid about the truth of the opera house. I wounder if Athena is going to tell anyone that she's been in that opera house and with whom.

The one thing I wish we'd seen this week was the reaction of the colonial fleet when that basetar jumps in, but i suppose that was a bit too much to ask and that's going to be a big thing next week. Or I hope it is, because if they don't show that I'll be unhappy.

DigiFluid
May 9th, 2008, 08:07 PM
I'll buy it. Perhaps the final five get a little too big for their britches, re-program the seven for some purpose.....like deleting whatever relevant "files" they had regarding the five but didn't fully delete those "files" from the recycle bin. Hence why they retain knowledge of the existence of the final five, but can't access who they are. Probably a very bad analogy, technically speaking, but..... Then perhaps the final final cylon decided it was superior to the other four, and wiped their minds and gave them special programming? Perhaps the final final cylon believed that he/she was divine. Bah.....talking myself round in circles. Love it. :P
lol no worries, any proud geek would have understood the recycling bin analogy :D


Heh, typo on what was intended as a little Harry Potter reference.....I'm typing too fast. I'm now very confused as to where you're going with that. :P

Ah well, now you've gone and lost me ;) I can't stand Harry Potter and avoid it like the plague so your reference went right over my head :p

Trek_Girl42
May 9th, 2008, 08:10 PM
I found last week's episode underwhelming--this week's was overwhelming. ;) So much happened I can hardly take it all in.

The opening minutes were intense, and I hope poor Felix survives, and survives intact. He looked like death in a few of the later shots.

There was just so much going on...the Final Five are from Earth? :eek: Starbuck--what do those cyrptic words of the hybrid mean to her? What was Athena thinking when she turned away from her dying model-sister? Why are they killing someone in every ep this season? :p

I loved Nana Visitor as the dying cancer patient. A brief friendship through the agony of shared suffering. I'm still unsure of Baltar as a religious figure; I'll have to see where this goes.

Anders has really become a main focus for me this season, and he had an incredible range of emotions this ep. Shooting Felix in loyalty to Kara, almost touching the basestar's computer interface, nearly killing a Cylon in retribution, giving comfort to a dying one, learning he was supposedly from the lost colony and should know the way there. What a day. :p

A nice quiet scene to end an action packed episode. Adama and Roslin pledge to find Earth, together.
I find Anders's reactions to being a cylon the most intriguing at the moment. Most human, most curious (I'd say even more curious than Tory). The reactions of the others are a little more straightforward. Tigh = denial, Tory = embracing her nature, Chief = suicidal. I love that Anders, while having these moments of panic is rationally calm about it (I don't think shooting Gaeta had anything to do with his being a cylon- I think that's just purely Anders). And not scarily so. He's grown on me as a character constantly since he appeared, and this ep just pushing him into the category of my favourite characters.

And I love the quiet scene at the end. After so much death and action, give us something light and hopeful. RDM did say in one of the podcasts that the Adama and Roslin cancer storyline is one of the strongest parts of the season. And I tend to agree so far. It feels quite peaceful. Strange saying that a CANCER storyline is the "light" part of the show. But at the moment it is. It does have it's emotionally draining elements (and will obviously become more so)- I was on the verge of tears this week AGAIN. :P But it's still "light" (for lack of a better word), probably due to the simple human fact of it.

Arative
May 9th, 2008, 08:18 PM
Holy run-on-sentence Batman

So the general idea of the quoted text is that the phrasing simply means that a similar sequence of events happens over and over? I find that hard to come to terms with, since the Cylons seem to know exactly who Kara is and what she's all about. I have a really hard time believing that events would play out so similarly that they'd be able to peg a role down to a single person quite so easily.

Well the first season they did repeat the mantra that all this has happened before and it all happen again. Once you know the archetypes that you need to complete a story, you can find the characters that fit those archetypes.

I'm going to be thinking on this one all week. It kind of blew my mind that the final 5 came from Earth because I can't think of a reason that the 7 would know about the 5. If the 5 came from Earth, they have to predate the 7 by a long time. Why would there have been a satellite that had a virus that killed skinjobs that appeared to come from Earth?

Trek_Girl42
May 9th, 2008, 08:28 PM
lol no worries, any proud geek would have understood the recycling bin analogy :DContinuing it, lets say if Anders had indeed stuck his hand in the cylon water computer, and that potentially could have done the equivalent of hitting the "restore files" key. Suddenly everything concerning the final five comes available to them, everyone is outed and they have one big cylon party meeting after de-boxing D'Anna..... Damn you Anders for being hesitant! :P:D

GateTrek2004
May 9th, 2008, 08:48 PM
I'm guessing it's D'Anna.

That was my understanding of the "The 3 will give you the 5." The Model 3 is the D'Anna's! So i'm assuming they might eventually unbox her Line possibly to find the Final 5.

Corona
May 9th, 2008, 09:33 PM
Maybe its just me but there is so much quiet whisper dialog I just can't make out. Military related tinnutis and hearing loss will do that.

Tonight I HD'd the first run and watched the second with the closed caption on. WOW! That has improved and is killer accurate. It's also great to 'hear' every little whisper, like what Gaeta was telling Helo. Am I alone in finding some of the talk TOO soft and mumbled?

Just a note, data doesn't go through an HDMI cable so there's a trade off.

I didn't even catch Nana the first run through. Just that sense of something. Then I caught the post here and paid better attention the second viewing.

Damn, this show demands a board, it has so much going on!

hellrasinb
May 9th, 2008, 09:49 PM
"Soon their will be four glorious in awakening struggling with the knowledge of their true selves
The pain of revelation bringing new clarity."

- Refers to how Tigh, Tyrol, Sam, and Tori are either in denial of their true selves or their acceptance of what they are

"I can see them all the 7 now 6 self-described machines who believe themselves without sin
but in time it is sin that will consume them. They will know inemity bitterness the renching
agony of the one splintering into the many"

- Refers to the 6 humanoid Cylons who have brought Civil War upon their race

And the 5th still in Shadow will claw towards the Light seeking redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible sufferring.

{The Hybrid}
Battlestar Galactica Razor

Zamboni
May 9th, 2008, 10:38 PM
Best episode of the season. :D

I absolutely adore Nana Visitor and the cancer humour and discussions. Absolutely lovely. *sniffle*

Holy frak that was Nana Visitor? The NV from DS9?! OMG she has not aged well...

But I guess that's just cancer makeup...

Detox
May 9th, 2008, 11:55 PM
Wow. FINALLY a good season 4 BSG episode.

I can't wait to see what happens when the Basestar jumps smack in the middle of the colonial fleet.

metabog
May 10th, 2008, 12:25 AM
So the Six that perma-died was Caprica Six?

And the eight that died was the original sharon (boomer)? Or what... I still can't figure out which sharon Athena is.

Sci-Fi
May 10th, 2008, 12:47 AM
Kara described a trinary star system with a gas giant. HD 188753 is only 149 light-years away in the constellation Cygnus and has a gas giant.

Alpha Centauri could be another candidate and only 4.37 light-years from Earth. Possibly close enough to see the same star patterns as the ones in the Tomb of Athena.

Polaris, the northern star, is also a trinary star system in the constellation Ursa Minor, and 431.42 light-years from Earth.

Seems like Kara was shown or remembered a signpost to Earth from what was shown in this episode. Unknown if she really visited Earth. Since Leobin called her an "angel" as opposed to an agent of "God" in the previous eppy, Kara may have encountered the 'Beings of Light'. Interesting twist from the original "War of the Gods" arc where the BoL gave Apollo, Starbuck, and Sheba the actual coodinates, but RDM only gave Starbuck 'feelings' to where it is.

The destruction of the Colonials if they follow Starbuck could mean a lot of things. Cavill's fleet may be following them, patiently waiting for the Colonials to find Earth and then wipe out all humans in one stroke. That would break the "circle of time" theme and history will not repeat itself. OR it could mean a merging/cross-breeding of the Human and Cylon race and that would mean the eventual end of both races as separate and unique species as they breed over several generations.

In any case, it is interesting that RDM is revisiting the mysticisms of the Colonial (and Cylon) universe and is reintegrating it back into the story line as well as having fans guess where the RTF is in relation to Earth.

Trek_Girl42
May 10th, 2008, 12:50 AM
So the Six that perma-died was Caprica Six?

And the eight that died was the original sharon (boomer)? Or what... I still can't figure out which sharon Athena is.Nope and nope. Caprica Six is in Galactica's brig, last we saw spending a lot of time with Tigh. And last we saw of original Galactica Sharon (Boomer), she was having an icky affair with one of the Cavils and had sided with the Cavils, Simons and Dorals against the rest of her model, the Sixes, and Leobens.

So the ones that died were just a random six and eight.

That's not complicated at all. ;)

Major Fischer
May 10th, 2008, 03:05 AM
Kara described a trinary star system with a gas giant. HD 188753 is only 149 light-years away in the constellation Cygnus and has a gas giant.


I'm not quite getting why so many people seem to be unwilling to accept the explaination delivered on screen that Kara's visions weren't of a trinary star system but that the three flashing stars were in fact the three burning basestars, especially when the VFX people were so blatent and the dialogue so pointed that the gas giant and damaged basestar were the commet of her dialogue.

Major Fischer
May 10th, 2008, 03:07 AM
Holy frak that was Nana Visitor? The NV from DS9?! OMG she has not aged well...

But I guess that's just cancer makeup...

Cancer makeup. She's aged just fine....

peragrin
May 10th, 2008, 03:28 AM
I'm not quite getting why so many people seem to be unwilling to accept the explaination delivered on screen that Kara's visions weren't of a trinary star system but that the three flashing stars were in fact the three burning basestars, especially when the VFX people were so blatent and the dialogue so pointed that the gas giant and damaged basestar were the commet of her dialogue.
exactly. Kara painted the wreckage scene with the basestars literally months ahead of time. also who is to say the final five are from earth? Maybe they traveled to earth and returned during the 12 year cylon war. Actually I think i just figured out the missing piece.

Kara thrace isn't a human, she is a hybrid like Hera. kara's mother is the fifth cylon, and fell in love with a guy on earth. Is that weird enough to work? She has part of her mother's memories of the previous trip to earth.

maybe not. definitely a good episode, and next week looks to be good as well.

fatarse
May 10th, 2008, 04:11 AM
I have suspected for quite some time that the name of the 13th Tribe was Cylon. It is the only tribe that we have not been told the name of.

What's the possibility of earth not populated with humans? And bam, hera and nick becomes adam & eve

GateofDOOM
May 10th, 2008, 04:12 AM
Yikes!
An episode in season four I actually...enjoyed?
Perhaps because there was limited Tori, and no Tyrol or Tigh. :P
I guess I was feeling inundated with all their melodrama.
Some moments did drag for me and others felt like they were missing something but all in all its got me feeling good about next weeks episode.

Nice to finally see the other missing member of the four, Anders. The look on his face while all the others were discussing the final five and their relationship to earth was indeed priceless. I was surprised at the lack of fuss made over Anders shooting Gaeta in the leg, surely he'll get some flack for that in the future then?

I'm sure why, but after this episode I felt that Gaeta couldn't be the final cylon. I couldn't say what made me drop him out of the running, but now I am convinced that he is not a Cylon.

Pic
May 10th, 2008, 06:41 AM
Starbuck did not annoy me for once this season. I was getting very tired of the bug eyed crazy look and I rather sympathized with her in the hybrid scenes. It seemed a little strange to me that no one else seemed to ract to "Kara Thrace will be the harbringer of death" bit given they discussed the rest of the sentence preceeding it. If they take the hybrid's statement on face value as they appeared to, shouldn't they take all of it?

In the beginning of all the excited chatter about unboxing the 3's to find out about the 5's who know the way to earth, Leoben (I think it was Leoben) mentions "Kara will lead us to our end" or some such thing. Yes, rather glossed over, but sorta mentioned.




Speaking of not seeing people, while I was happy to do without Baltar, anyone wondering where Lee is given that RDM kept saying how much Lee came into his own when they took him out of the uniform? At least when they lost Lee in the second half of season 2 and three... they didn't physically misplace Jamie Bamber.


Amen to the Baltar thing.
I'm sure we'll see more of Lee, we just have to.

P-90_177
May 10th, 2008, 10:03 AM
exactly. Kara painted the wreckage scene with the basestars literally months ahead of time. also who is to say the final five are from earth? Maybe they traveled to earth and returned during the 12 year cylon war. Actually I think i just figured out the missing piece.

Kara thrace isn't a human, she is a hybrid like Hera. kara's mother is the fifth cylon, and fell in love with a guy on earth. Is that weird enough to work? She has part of her mother's memories of the previous trip to earth.

maybe not. definitely a good episode, and next week looks to be good as well.

Ooooh........I hadn't thought of that. It makes for a much better story than her being a Cylon. But I odn't think her mother is the final cylon. I reckon Leoban might just be her father. I know it's gross and they've already mentioned her father before (he was a painist or something right?) But you know.....he could have just been someone that kara believed was her father.


EDIT: wait wait......I'd like to add to that theory. It could also be Tigh.........I mean they quite similar in a lot of ways and they sometimes seem to have a sort of Father/Daughter relationship.........albeit quite a disfunctional one.

Trek_Girl42
May 10th, 2008, 11:40 AM
Ooooh........I hadn't thought of that. It makes for a much better story than her being a Cylon. But I odn't think her mother is the final cylon. I reckon Leoban might just be her father. I know it's gross and they've already mentioned her father before (he was a painist or something right?) But you know.....he could have just been someone that kara believed was her father.


EDIT: wait wait......I'd like to add to that theory. It could also be Tigh.........I mean they quite similar in a lot of ways and they sometimes seem to have a sort of Father/Daughter relationship.........albeit quite a disfunctional one.Ew. Tigh? Leoben????? (please no to that one) That would be weird. But it would be interesting if her mother was a cylon, her father was a cylon and she was the only child born of two cylons.....and perhaps it had some reason for the final five separating from the significant seven- if she was the child of Tigh and her mother, rather than Leoben. Which no. Ew.

An-Alteran
May 10th, 2008, 11:43 AM
.........I mean they quite similar in a lot of ways and they sometimes seem to have a sort of Father/Daughter relationship.........albeit quite a disfunctional one.

Yeah... the whole stabbing to death 5 times thing might put a damper on the father/daughter bonding...

Trek_Girl42
May 10th, 2008, 11:49 AM
Yeah... the whole stabbing to death 5 times thing might put a damper on the father/daughter bonding...Not to mention his sexual fascination with her.....and her white paint dream. Yeah. That's just gross. Leoben is not going to pull a Vader.

peragrin
May 10th, 2008, 11:54 AM
Not to mention his sexual fascination with her.....and her white paint dream. Yeah. That's just gross. Leoben is not going to pull a Vader.
I do hope that never comes to pass. of course kara's mother does fail one test of the last cylon. she is dead and not with the fleet.

Though Kara's father being a cylon is a possibility still, as long as it isn't leobon or cavil.

Admiral Mappalazarou
May 10th, 2008, 11:56 AM
Poor Gaeta. If he does he and Tigh can wander around like pirates together. :P

I'd pay to see that. :cameron: Anywho, loved this episode after last weeks quite slow ep. Liked more or less, everything about it.

blazertrek50
May 10th, 2008, 12:39 PM
Loved this episode. Easily the best of season 4. I am wondering if it was so good in part due to the absence of Lee (I do not like his new "political" character), Tigh, Baltar (minus the voice in box) and limited Tori. They have become my least liked characters, since the end of season 3. Oh yeah and throw the Chief into that group. His total insanity mode has me gagging:S.

That being said the storylines in this episode were awesome. Very intense and very touching (the cancer line).

I can honestly say that coming into this weeks episode I was not very excited, that is to say my expectations had been subdued to the point where if my guild in WoW needed me to help out in a raid or BG premade, I might have gone and then watched BSG on TIVO.....

Now however I am very excited for next week's eppy:)

Hypochondriac
May 10th, 2008, 12:56 PM
Ok episode but somethings don't make sense. Sam shot a guy and there's no punishment for it? If he's walking around scot-free next, I'll be more pissed.

Poor Greta, Why couldn't they jump to the RTF drop him off and then comeback? They had 14 hours.

The 6, I never did nothing to them and all that. Your race nearly annihilated them, and you expect them not to hold a grudge?

hoof
May 10th, 2008, 01:35 PM
Good episode. We're finally seeing some payoff for 5 episodes of setup.

I must admit, I didn't recognize Nana Vistor. But looking at the boat scene again, that's definitely her. According to a web search, she's 51, and looks pretty good for a 51-year-old!

My pet theory is that Earth and the 12 colonies were part of the previous cycle, and that the Earthlings lost (and were driven far away, like the RTF is now). The conflict devastated Kobol, which is why the 12 colonies left. The Earthlings (who I'm now guessing are the previous cycle's cylons) devised a plan to rid themselves of their foe. However, it would take far too long and be too risky to simply build themselves up, and destroy the 12 colonies themselves. Thus they made the final 5 (or maybe they were volunteers). These headed out to Colonial space, integrated themselves into the society, then set about to create the cylons. The idea was to get the colonials to be destroyed by the cylons (who would then destroy themselves in a civil war). Their first attempt failed (the first Cylon War), so they created the humanoid cylons, who succeeded. But, as they realized, this just means there is another power who could be a threat (the cylons), so they programmed them in a way to self-destruct once the colonials were defeated (the civil war we're now seeing). But even this wouldn't get all of them, thus the whole idea of finding Earth. The survivors of the colonials and the cylon civil war would be led to Earth, following the markers left by the 5 millenia ago

The cylons are very worried about the colonials rising up again and hunting them once more. This could be a direct result of the Earthling's fear of having done to them what they were doing to the colonials, thus programming the need to steer the survivors to Earth for final dispatching, or to destroy them in-place. Of course, that could prove risky, as the colonials/7 cylons might catch wind of what's really happening and attack Earth in force. Better to use a planet like Earth as a trap instead, making the colonials/cylons think that's where the 13th tribe went when they really went somewhere else (and are waiting for the RTF/Cylon survivors to reach Earth)

An interesting tidbit, was the bioweapon from season 3 the Final 5's first attempt to wipe out the colonials? But it failed, making the colonials immune, thus why they weren't affected when the probe was found? Could it be related to why it took the Colonials to build up their industry/fleet again? After all, a species that can go from Kobol to Caprica would need something very nasty to happen to it to "forget" all that know-how and require thousands of years to reach Cylon-making capability again.

If any/all of my theory is correct, then what is Kara and how does she fit in? What is the meaning of the two Human/Cylon children? Are the Earthlings actively involved in the final stages of the plan (thus providing Kara with the new Viper)? Is anyone really "human", or are they all simply bioengineered constructs that figured out how to reproduce? Did the "plan" take too long to execute, and the Earthlings might not be expecting them to arrive? How did the Final Five propagate themselves over thousands of years?

Actually, if the Final Five are from Earth (and left the markers on the way), then that implies that they are thousands of years old, how would they ensure no one caught on that they didn't age? Or do they get old and download themselves into a younger body periodically to avoid suspicion?

One final thought: If Helo is a Final Five member, then the human/cylon children could be how the Final Five propagate themselves. The two kids could be the first of the next generation of the Final Five. Just a thought!

Mongoletsi
May 10th, 2008, 01:48 PM
I'm sure every colonial who's been on a Basestar has stuck their hand in the water to see if anything happens.
Did Baltar, actually? Dunno about Bulldog obviously.

Trek_Girl42
May 10th, 2008, 01:52 PM
Did Baltar, actually? Dunno about Bulldog obviously.About 80% sure that he did.....it actually might have been in one of the deleted scenes though.

Mongoletsi
May 10th, 2008, 01:53 PM
also the whole painting/base star was very ship of lightish more so than anything else in the season so far...
According to RDM (probably) there will be no Ship of Light shizzle.

Mongoletsi
May 10th, 2008, 02:28 PM
What's the possibility of earth not populated with humans? And bam, hera and nick becomes adam & eve
I thought that. But in practical terms it's impossible they be the sole progenitors of this cycle of "humanity".

Mongoletsi
May 10th, 2008, 02:30 PM
EDIT: wait wait......I'd like to add to that theory. It could also be Tigh.........I mean they quite similar in a lot of ways and they sometimes seem to have a sort of Father/Daughter relationship.........albeit quite a disfunctional one.
Now that's a particularly appealing twist and would explain why she's a bit "different" but isn't actually a Cylon!

However we'd be back into the realms of sharks and motorbikes. It'd be one revelation too far me thinks.

Lady Snow
May 10th, 2008, 02:30 PM
I did this a few episodes ago, and I wanted to do it again. So I present to you lot Lady Snow's List of Things She Thinks She Thinks:

1. Felix Gaeta is NOT a Cylon.


I'm sure why, but after this episode I felt that Gaeta couldn't be the final cylon. I couldn't say what made me drop him out of the running, but now I am convinced that he is not a Cylon.

Well, I spent a while thinking about it, and here's why: "They will not harm their own." The Final Five, according to the Hybrid, cannot and/or will not harm fellow Cylons. Sam shot Gaeta, therefore Gaeta is not a Cylon. If we extend this even further, very little interaction of the Four with the humanoid Cylons has been directly violent - the closest thing to harming is through the indirect agency of bombs (Anders on Caprica, Anders and Chief/Tigh [through Duck] on New Caprica). Heck, we've never even seen Anders shoot a humanoid Cylon. The closest he's come is when Natalie pulled the trigger (after trapping his finger) on the Six that Barolay killed - and he was shocked. Just flabbergasted. In summary: Gaeta is not a Cylon, because Sam wouldn't have shot him otherwise. In other news, that was a seriously sick shot, and if Gaeta loses his leg, I'm going to be very upset. *prays for a Doc Cottle miracle*

2. I think I regret jumping on the "Blanders" bandwagon. Mostly.

Let's face it, for a long time, Anders was just sort of there. He was Starbuck's booty-call-husband and didn't do a whole heck of a lot. Ever. He was, for lack of a better term, bland. Extremely good-looking, yes. But bland. He didn't grow, he didn't change, and he didn't even have much to do. He was just in the RTF doing whatever waiting for Starbuck to call. Then Kara dies - and we see a bit of emotional development. Then we find out - he's a Cylon. And all of a sudden, Anders comes into his own. The writers had a lot of different directions they could have taken the final five, each with an enormous amount of potential, but I'm very happy with the way Anders has come into being a Cylon. He's resigned to it and he's somewhat accepted it but it still makes him panic. He didn't shoot Gaeta out of love for Kara or some misguided notion of duty - he shot Gaeta because he needed to get to that basestar, too. He needs to know what it means to be a Cylon; since he doesn't have Baltar's "wisdom" to guide him, the only immediate means for him to try to come to grips with his new identity is to be with those who already have said identity. He needs this, possibly moreso than Kara. I've also seen (on various blogs) that his reaction to Barolay (often misidentified as Seelix) getting shot was OOC - but that's just nonsense. Let us not forget - Jean made it through the original Resistance on Caprica with him, made it through the second Resistance on New Caprica - all to die at the hands of an emotionally-scarred Six. Jean was one of the few people who (probably, I'm assuming here) knew Anders, but her means of death also (still assuming here) freaked him out, because he could turn on someone like that, too. This is not a good thing, and Anders knows it. In summary: Michael Trucco is one heck of an actor.

3. All BSG religions are the same, in the end. Except Billy's atheism, which may or may not be a religion after all.

Yup, I said it. They are all the same. It's the river imagery that did it for me, particularly in relation to dying. There's been this theme of "the river that separates this world from the next" running through the Cylon/monotheistic POV from the moment we met Leoben in "Flesh and Blood;" this was finally picked up by the human/polytheistic POV with the River Styx. Well, okay, maybe the Styx wasn't mentioned per se. It was Laura's reference to the Elysian Fields, which one can (traditionally) only reach by crossing the River Styx. Nonetheless, there is something, be it a black abyss or a river, that separates this life from the next, and something funky happens there. We can make the case that one religion has somehow derived from the other (see the speculation [mine included] on the Jealous God, whose name cannot be spoken as the Thirteenth Lord of Kobol and the One True God), but I'm not sure about that anymore. It makes a lot of sense and ties together quite neatly (the derivation theory, that is), which is why I was such a proponent of the theory in the first place, but I think I need to think about concurrent belief systems being the same a bit more. No summary here, just food for thought.

4. I think I'm glad Helo and Athena remembered they have a daughter.

No summary here either, just a simple statement of fact. :)

---

I may bring more later, after I listen to the podcast. Yay for podcasts being up!

Trek_Girl42
May 10th, 2008, 02:37 PM
I may bring more later, after I listen to the podcast. Yay for podcasts being up!Sadly not this week's and last week's yet. :( I've checked a dozen times today already. :P

Great list. :zelenka25: And agreeing on Gaeta not being a cylon. But really, that's just a gut feeling more than from any evidence in the show. I really hope he doesn't lose his leg either..... :(

Does anyone have a hybrid-speak transcript from this ep?

Jumper_One
May 10th, 2008, 03:21 PM
this was definitely one of the better eps this season. some nice character moments: Roslin in the infirmary, Six and of course at the end with Adama. once again someone dies :S on the bright side there was no Baltar, at least not in person. so who's the final Cylon? the missing three will give you the five who have come from the home of the thirteenth. oh and I didn't even recognize Nana Visitor until the very end :eek:

omgpix
May 10th, 2008, 04:50 PM
The 6, I never did nothing to them and all that. Your race nearly annihilated them, and you expect them not to hold a grudge?

Of course grudges are to be expected, but there's a bit more than a simple grudge isn't it? She was brutally slaughtered and the perpetrator was rather unrepentant.

Now, I'm not arguing whether it's right or wrong for her to have been killed, truth is I can't remember from the episode if she was a legitimate obstacle in the way of the mission or not, (from her account she was more of a bystander), but when you're on the receiving end justification is entirely irrelevant when it comes to suffering. The other side being right, or having a motive doesn't diminish it one bit.

So it's entirely understandable. Put it this way, if a German woman was raped by Soviets at the end of WW2, would you say "grudges are to be expected"?

P-90_177
May 10th, 2008, 05:06 PM
Now that's a particularly appealing twist and would explain why she's a bit "different" but isn't actually a Cylon!

However we'd be back into the realms of sharks and motorbikes. It'd be one revelation too far me thinks.

I dunno. I now have a very funny image in my head of her finding out, getting back to galactica, seeing Tigh and just going "Hey Dad.." Followed by the patented Tigh "What the Frak?!" look. :P

MmmmMcKAy
May 10th, 2008, 05:28 PM
Wow! "Faith" was an incredible episode. The acting was top notch and boy was there a lot going on.

The scenes with Roslin and Emily were extremely gut wrenching. My love for Roslin, which has dimmed since the first season, got a little brighter watching this episode.

I can't wait to see how all the threads come together over the next few weeks(and next year;)).

madk99
May 10th, 2008, 07:41 PM
I nearly LMAO when I saw the 'volunteer' go with Kara to the base ship. I can't wait to hear RDM's podcast. I'll bet he calls out that the new face (who is then immediately killed) was an homage to Star Trek.

"Captain Trace!! Over here. I've found something....
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhh.........."

dec55
May 10th, 2008, 08:07 PM
Grace was excellent in this eppy, she gives all her different Sharons different
little characteristics that are so believable. She really deserves a Emmy for her work here. :ronan:

Plus getting to see a room full of Sharons again was great...:)

Now the Galactica has a whole crew of Sharons on their side...:)

I guess the Chief may have a chance to marry Sharon again, though it won't
be Boomer, I am sure at least one Sharon model may be willing to take Boomer's place.
Hopefully a happy ending for him too.

Trek_Girl42
May 10th, 2008, 08:31 PM
I nearly LMAO when I saw the 'volunteer' go with Kara to the base ship. I can't wait to hear RDM's podcast. I'll bet he calls out that the new face (who is then immediately killed) was an homage to Star Trek.

"Captain Trace!! Over here. I've found something....
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhh.........."That "volunteer" was Barolay- who has been around since the first half of season two- she was in Anders's group on Caprica (she did have longer hair then), she was also in the group that was conducting those secret airlockings after New Caprica, and she was in the resistance. :)

Dusk
May 10th, 2008, 11:32 PM
RIP Barolay - this week's victim.

Great episode, has me excited again after recent dead ends.

So happy Natalie is alive, and that D'Anna is on her way back.

Next time... "Guess what's coming to dinner?"

Darth_Bicyclist
May 11th, 2008, 12:24 AM
I thought it was strange that everyone seemed to ignore the part of the Hybrid's speech where she said: "You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end." They were all like, oh well, harbinger of death, leading us all to our end. Well, forget about that, no big deal. Hey, what was that she said about the Three and the Five and the Thirteenth? Let's all go find Deanna! Yay!

Nobody else found that strange? I mean, in Razor, Kendra is so shaken by this news that she tries to contact the fleet to warn them. Here, everyone just ignores it. What the frack?

SoulReaver
May 11th, 2008, 04:36 AM
Was the gas giant Jupiter? I know she'd said gas giant before, but as far as we know (in RL I mean) gas giants are pretty common...extremely doubtful - impossible actually. this would mean that the baseship was right next to Earth (on a galactic scale anyway, especially for space travelers with FTL tech) which means the colonial fleet would subsequently know where earth is and would logically get there by next ep by jumping to Jupiter then executing one small teeny weeny mini-jump - which of course doesn't happen since we're only mid-season. the fleet is still supposed to be a long way from earth, not at its doorstep

SoulReaver
May 11th, 2008, 04:39 AM
btw why did they unplug the hybrid ? :tealcanime49: (did they know this would kill her & if so why did they do it ? must've missed something)

interesting how that centurion opened fire on one of the eights (though the cylons should've seen this coming). this means the centurions value the hybirds more than the rest of the cylons

Pharaoh Atem
May 11th, 2008, 04:41 AM
btw why did they unplug the hybrid ? :tealcanime49: (did they know this would kill her & if so why did they do it ? must've missed something)

interesting how that centurion opened fire on one of the eights (though the cylons should've seen this coming). this means the centurions value the hybirds more than the rest of the cylons

they unplugged the hybrid so there could jump

and i think the centurions will play a big role later in the season now that they can think for themselves

DigiFluid
May 11th, 2008, 05:02 AM
extremely doubtful - impossible actually. this would mean that the baseship was right next to Earth (on a galactic scale anyway, especially for space travelers with FTL tech) which means the colonial fleet would subsequently know where earth is and would logically get there by next ep by jumping to Jupiter then executing one small teeny weeny mini-jump - which of course doesn't happen since we're only mid-season. the fleet is still supposed to be a long way from earth, not at its doorstep

Yes...all this I know, which is why I was a little puzzled at some people suggesting it was Jupiter...

somedude
May 11th, 2008, 05:55 AM
Great list. :zelenka25: And agreeing on Gaeta not being a cylon. But really, that's just a gut feeling more than from any evidence in the show. I really hope he doesn't lose his leg either..... :(


You would think that a civilization that can build FTL drives and massive spaceships, they would have better medical technology. Hope Gaeta gets a nice cybernetic leg. =)

Arative
May 11th, 2008, 07:40 AM
As far as Kara being the harbinger of death. In some religions, death is considered a time of a change. Could the hybrid be saying that Starbuck is going to lead the humans to their deaths as in changing from pure human to a human/cylon mix?

Of course given the tone of the show, it could just be that she is leading them all to their deaths.

Stormtrooper
May 11th, 2008, 07:45 AM
Well, I gave up trying to solve BSG. I'm just gonna watch the show, and hope for the best. Luckily, the solution to the puzzle will be neat, so BSG can wrap up on a well deserved high note.

Garbo
May 11th, 2008, 09:29 AM
(have not posted in here, but I had a nerdy question)

The scene with the Sixes was absolutely gut wrenching and how on earth did they do that kiss??

I won't go into how much I loved Roslin after this episode (give the woman an Emmy already!), but I will ask this question:

How many people had a Tolkien moment during Roslin's dream/vision about the river? (not from the films, but from the trilogy and The Silmarillion) Granted, I haven't read the books in years, but the crossing over scene made me really think of the Afterlife that Iluvatar created.

Maybe my mind just goes a little too far with the literary references, but I just completely thought of that.

Trek_Girl42
May 11th, 2008, 09:30 AM
I thought that it was weird that no one commented on teh Harbinger of Death thing as well- might have to go re-watch- did she say it quieter to Kara? Or was there some other distraction at the time? I want to hear the RDM podcast on this one.....

and i think the centurions will play a big role later in the season now that they can think for themselvesIn one of the podcasts RDM said that they scrapped most of their ideas regarding a storyline on that- they didn't want a whole new storyline in the air. So it'll come into play, but it won't be a major thing or anything like that. Just kinda soemthing that's there.....But who knows. :P

jenks
May 11th, 2008, 12:46 PM
Now that was an episode worth watching.

Agent_Dark
May 11th, 2008, 01:49 PM
The scene with the Sixes was absolutely gut wrenching and how on earth did they do that kiss??
one of them was kinda obscured by hair and lighting, so it was a probably a body double. Well, lip double technically...

Stormtrooper
May 11th, 2008, 02:19 PM
I thought it was strange that everyone seemed to ignore the part of the Hybrid's speech where she said: "You are the harbinger of death, Kara Thrace. You will lead them all to their end." They were all like, oh well, harbinger of death, leading us all to our end. Well, forget about that, no big deal. Hey, what was that she said about the Three and the Five and the Thirteenth? Let's all go find Deanna! Yay!

Nobody else found that strange? I mean, in Razor, Kendra is so shaken by this news that she tries to contact the fleet to warn them. Here, everyone just ignores it. What the frack?


I thought that it was weird that no one commented on teh Harbinger of Death thing as well- might have to go re-watch- did she say it quieter to Kara? Or was there some other distraction at the time? I want to hear the RDM podcast on this one.....
In one of the podcasts RDM said that they scrapped most of their ideas regarding a storyline on that- they didn't want a whole new storyline in the air. So it'll come into play, but it won't be a major thing or anything like that. Just kinda soemthing that's there.....But who knows. :P

Didn't Starbuck have to die in Maelstrom to find Earth for the others? So there you go: harbinger of death. "You will lead them all to their end" probably means Starbuck will lead Colonials and Cylons to Earth. But yeah, it was strange nobody mentioned it. Maybe next week. :)

Hypochondriac
May 11th, 2008, 04:01 PM
Now, I'm not arguing whether it's right or wrong for her to have been killed, truth is I can't remember from the episode if she was a legitimate obstacle in the way of the mission or not, (from her account she was more of a bystander), but when you're on the receiving end justification is entirely irrelevant when it comes to suffering. The other side being right, or having a motive doesn't diminish it one bit.

So it's entirely understandable. Put it this way, if a German woman was raped by Soviets at the end of WW2, would you say "grudges are to be expected"?

Thats not a fair comparison. Rape is never justified. She also didn't really die the first time either. I'll try to answer your question If that German woman was the leadership then yes she's a valid target for killing. The Cylons all agreed to wipe out the colonies. so her claim of being innocent doesn't hold water. If this was real life aren't war crimes punished by death?

LegendZero
May 11th, 2008, 04:39 PM
As far as Kara being the harbinger of death. In some religions, death is considered a time of a change. Could the hybrid be saying that Starbuck is going to lead the humans to their deaths as in changing from pure human to a human/cylon mix?

Of course given the tone of the show, it could just be that she is leading them all to their deaths.


Like in Tarrot cards. The death card usually is a positive. It signifies the end(death) of one part of your life and the beginning of another. If their ultimate end is to reach Earth, that's not a bad thing.

peragrin
May 11th, 2008, 05:00 PM
How many people had a Tolkien moment during Roslin's dream/vision about the river? (not from the films, but from the trilogy and The Silmarillion) Granted, I haven't read the books in years, but the crossing over scene made me really think of the Afterlife that Iluvatar created.

Actually i am confused. the river styx is what came to my mind which is a big part of greek mythology.

Baltar is more like Zeus than anyone else. Arrogrant and likes his women.

and harbringer of doom can mean any number of things.

Garbo
May 11th, 2008, 05:24 PM
Actually i am confused. the river styx is what came to my mind which is a big part of greek mythology.

Baltar is more like Zeus than anyone else. Arrogrant and likes his women.

and harbringer of doom can mean any number of things.

I definitely think that your thoughts are more accurate than mine (since they're pulling a Milton and combining Judeo/Christian theology and mythology). My mind just completely went to Lord of the Rings though (and Milton, but I can make every reference go back to Milton).

ToasterOnFire
May 11th, 2008, 06:24 PM
Far better ep than last week's, thank goodness.

-Interesting how they have been focusing on Roslin's hairstyles. First she had the Cain-style wig. Then she was bald in front of Tory to portray her vulnerability and fear. And later I thought her headshawl looked a lot like a nun's as she cared for Nana's character.

-Wait, did Baltar quote Shakespeare in his radio address? I could have sworn I heard something about a mortal coil.

-I loved the end where Roslin stated to Adama with such confidence that they'll find Earth. Finally, some hope is back in this show! :) And it came about indirectly from Baltar of all things.

-I wonder what would have happened if Anders had touched the basestar's interface.

-Natalie killing the 6 was a great scene, as was Roslin on the boat.

-What are we supposed to assume activated the hybrid? An 8's blood dripping into the bath, physical proof of the centurion's independence, or close proximity of Starbuck? The immediate assumption of the hybrid's comment was that following Starbuck would lead to the humans' demise. But could the death refer to someone else (the cylons) or could "death" be more philosophical than actual?

-Gaeta is so losing his leg.

-Looking forward to unboxing the 3s and jumping the basestar into the RTF, heh. I wonder who 3 is going to recognize first, and if she's going to tell everyone or keep it to herself.

m57lyra
May 11th, 2008, 06:45 PM
im guessing the 3 which will lead them to the 5=tigh, tyrol and anders.

No, the missing 3 is D'Anna.

The dying leader will know the truth of the opera house (Rosyln)

The missing 3 will give you the 5, who have come from the house of the 13th (D'Anna, the Final 5 - who she saw in the temple, the opera house is where the 6 and gaius saw the 5 light-people)

m57lyra
May 11th, 2008, 07:34 PM
Anders definitely seems like the one who has the strongest connection to the other Cylons.

Respectfully disagree...

Tyrol to Sharon
Tigh to Six

kharn the betrayer
May 11th, 2008, 07:56 PM
-Wait, did Baltar quote Shakespeare in his radio address? I could have sworn I heard something about a mortal coil.

yes he was quoting Shakespeare

I distinctly recall him saying

''The undiscovered country, from whose bourne no traveler returns'' which is from hamlet at one point

m57lyra
May 11th, 2008, 08:06 PM
A harbinger is a forerunner. Kara is the forerunner of death. Perhaps she will "lead them all to their end"

But who are the "them" that the hybrid was referring to? Is it the Final Five, who were meant to shepard the two races together? Is it the 7 models, who kara will somehow imbue with more humanity and bring their race to the point of inevitable deaths instead of resurrection?

Or... does the "end" not equal death, and instead mean an end to the separate races an the BEGINNING of a new race? The death of the endless cycle of war between the two races...

When they made the river styx analogy, I figured this must mean that humans left earth (meaning *us*) after creating the cylons, and religion and scholarly pursuits (greek mythology, etc) got mangled after 5 millenia.

My 2 cents...

wiseowl777
May 11th, 2008, 08:10 PM
now was that really jupiter? bc if it was... shows over next week :)

wiseowl777
May 11th, 2008, 09:17 PM
-theories are great so far... heres mine:

-we may have a while for d'anna to recognize the 5 bc... who knows if they could just throw in and say- well the boxing fraked with her memory... plus yes she knows who tigh is... but whos to say that her particular model ever met the other 3? she may know what they look like and now anders and the rest may just be advised to steer clear...

-i do like the idea that tigh is kara's father, as mentioned by some1 b4... it would explain the visions and her connection to it all. plus tigh is the appropriate age and character to have messed around with some random woman on caprica 1 nite

-this theory is 2 part... some1 in another thread listed the cylons in order. from caval being a 1 to sharon as an 8... that order seems to increase in just how human they are and act (kinda like 5th in the replicators on sg1)... but no matter what they are still flawed and hold jealousy's... anders i think is the most human of all of them so far.
--now having said that -in my opinion... roslin is not the dieing leader. that would be too much of a not suprise w/o a real twist. i really do think its gonna end up being Lee. hes no in a gov position, and as soon as roslin kicks it, could easily end up coming into office. -

--(crazy no basis theory time)--perhaps its not a slow death as we are made to assume, but maybe he's simple just shot.- we see kara slipping away from anders, and his actions with felix just show hard hes trying to hold onto her, and how lopsided his feelings are. when all is revealed i think kara flips to lee and drops anders bc he's a cylon. -perhaps the dieing leader is lee, but is taken out over just love/jealousy by anders at the end.

-but thats just my opinion, i could be wrong... :)

Darth_Bicyclist
May 11th, 2008, 10:21 PM
A harbinger is a forerunner. Kara is the forerunner of death. Perhaps she will "lead them all to their end"

But who are the "them" that the hybrid was referring to? Is it the Final Five, who were meant to shepard the two races together? Is it the 7 models, who kara will somehow imbue with more humanity and bring their race to the point of inevitable deaths instead of resurrection?

Or... does the "end" not equal death, and instead mean an end to the separate races an the BEGINNING of a new race? The death of the endless cycle of war between the two races...


Well, like a lot of prophecies, it's pretty vague. But the First Hybrid was a bit more specific in Razor:


Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her.


And I also agree that "death" could be an allegory for a lot of different things. But I still think it's strange that nobody (in the show) seemed to be worried about that statement. Well, Kara seemed to be taken aback for a second, but after that, it was just "Let's go find Deanna" and everyone seemed to ignore a pretty powerful statement. Hopefully RDM will talk about this in the podcast, if not come back to that line in the show.

Positively Kanyon
May 11th, 2008, 10:51 PM
What's the possibility of earth not populated with humans? And bam, hera and nick becomes adam & eve

That's the theory I've been toying with for a while... Humans and Cylons make it to Earth but wipe each other out and somehow Nick & Hera are the only ones left and repopulate the Earth as Adam & Eve... Glad I wasn't the only one thinking of this.

Think of it as a sci-fi version of Blue Lagoon... :p

hoof
May 12th, 2008, 12:36 AM
Well, like a lot of prophecies, it's pretty vague. But the First Hybrid was a bit more specific in Razor:


Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end. She is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death. They must not follow her.


And I also agree that "death" could be an allegory for a lot of different things. But I still think it's strange that nobody (in the show) seemed to be worried about that statement. Well, Kara seemed to be taken aback for a second, but after that, it was just "Let's go find Deanna" and everyone seemed to ignore a pretty powerful statement. Hopefully RDM will talk about this in the podcast, if not come back to that line in the show.

Actually, I think the more relavent question is who is really human? My theory is that none of the characters we currently know are human, but are cylons (or the descendants of their equivelant of cylons) from the last cycle, and that the "humans" referred to were the Earthlings, soon to be destroyed as the RTF leads the current Cylons to them.

Of course, that was my theory until we found out (or the Hybrid suggested) that the final 5 were from Earth.

Either way, until it's established *who* are human (we just assume the Colonials are), we cannot know who the Hybrid was referring to.

CellarDwellar
May 12th, 2008, 03:26 AM
As everything I would say has already been previously stated, all I'm going to say is:

Tory, Tigh, Anders, and Chief better come out of the closet soon, or I'm going to become very sick of their story. All I ever hear from their side is whine whine whine whine whine, oh I'm a cylon, boo hoo, woe is me; it's getting very tiring, very repetitive, very stupid. I liked Anders' development this time around, but geeze, drag it on much?

The lack of Jesus Baltar in this episode probably pleased me the most. Down with Jesus Baltar, more final cylon revealing. (If it's Dee, I will fall off my chair laughing during that episode.)

Playing the cancer card a third time, now, didn't please me; sure, the scene was well played, but we went through all of this before. We've seen the pasty white, I'm about to die Roslin beforehand, and in reality, I'm sick of it too. =( She got my pity once, but twice is pushing it.

Loveboat Galactica is nonexistent at the moment! Good thing? Bad thing? I don't know yet. I still want proper closure on Apollo/Kara, if they're done or if they're continued (considering their last scene together), and I'm going to say that Anders is going nutso over him being a cylon so he has no time for Loveboat. Tory is already all over Baltar, so she's on my "no thank you" list, Adama is obviously <333 with Roslin, Tigh is most def. with that Six in my books, Chief is going waaaay too crazy about Cally to be an elective...blah blah...>_>;;

Helo development! <3
Leoben is finally important again! <3
We may ACTUALLY get rid of Roslin this time! :O



I'm done. XD

Next episode looks interesting. Any speculations?

Skydiver
May 12th, 2008, 04:16 AM
the 'the missing 3 will give you five' means that d'anna knows who the other 5 are. and if they can 'rescue' her and unbox her (i'm gonna presume that they need to infiltrate cavil's groups to do so) then they can find out who the five are.

and, i'm guessing, once those 5 see each other and know who each other are, something in their programming will click and they'll know how to get to earth

peragrin
May 12th, 2008, 07:36 AM
i just remembered a point.

# After sensing something strange one time too many, Tyrol leaves the harvest camp and begins a trek to a mountainous area. He discovers a door--not a naturally-carved one, but a rectangular door, apparently constructed by human hands.
# Tyrol enters the door and walks through a passageway into an immensely large domed room, carved from within the mountain. In the center of the room is a center spire that reaches high into the structure. The spire is surrounded by five pentagonal obelisks. The center spire has ancient tribal carvings at the bottom, as well as illuminated crystalline pillars atop it. Tyrol, the son of a priest and an oracle, has a fair idea of what he has discovered: The Temple of Five. Did Galen remember the temple's location? or is it something else. One point I am confused on is that human cylons age like humans do. Tigh has lived a long life inside the colonial fleet. How can 3 of the 4 been younger than 40 while still being cylon's without resurrection tanks? The only answer I can think of is that Anders, Galen, and tori are in fact hybrids. Tigh and possibly the mystery cylon are the only ones with direct memories.

Dusk
May 12th, 2008, 08:09 AM
Ooh ooh... has anyone mentioned that this was the first time in the series that we've seen a FTL jump from the cockpit's perspective? I was wondering when we were gonna see that!

peragrin
May 12th, 2008, 08:32 AM
Oooh good point about the FTL jump.

Continuing on the four of five theme running rampant in my head.

Four of the final five cylons were activated when they arrived in the ionian Nebula. The Temple of Five was a pointer for that nebula. Someone is going to have to go back to the nebula and figure out which way to go next.

So the final five know the way to Earth. The ionian nebula pointed the way. Maybe Kara's purpose is to take them back to the nebula to find the way there?

nckzvnbr
May 12th, 2008, 09:46 AM
I do believe that part of Kara's destiny was to find Leoban so that he could take her to the Hybrid so they could have there little chat. I don't think they will have to go back to the nebula, but I could be wrong. During that chat, the Hybrid told Kara that the way to Earth would be via the Five.

There are spoilers at patriot resource and battlestargalactica-wiki that suggest they will find Earth before the second half of the season and that it is abandoned. Further, they will find ruins. There are some pictures of a Raptor parked by some ruins, which according to rumor is on "Earth."

Mongoletsi
May 12th, 2008, 11:54 AM
Anders definitely seems like the one who has the strongest connection to the other Cylons.
Respectfully disagree...

Tyrol to Sharon
Tigh to Six
Not to mention Helo to Sharon, and in fact Adama to Sharon. Or Baltar to 6.

Mongoletsi
May 12th, 2008, 11:57 AM
... Nick & Hera are the only ones left and repopulate the Earth as Adam & Eve... Glad I wasn't the only one thinking of this.
Erm. It's totally a genetic impossibility for a single pair to repopulate a planet*. You need something like 50,000 people (according to Baltar)

* Do they teach that in Kansas now? ;)

Mongoletsi
May 12th, 2008, 12:00 PM
Ooh ooh... has anyone mentioned that this was the first time in the series that we've seen a FTL jump from the cockpit's perspective? I was wondering when we were gonna see that!

I thought it was a bit too "Startrek". Not being a hardcore geek, I kinda like the BSG anti-technology approach. I though it was meant to go "fwwwwip" not "woososhoosooohooooossh" if ye ken what am sayin?

Mongoletsi
May 12th, 2008, 12:03 PM
Coupla my own questions...

- Somebody else already asked this; why is Anders not locked up for shooting Gaeta?

- Why didn't other Centurions respond when the one in the Hybrid room was shot up?

- Why didn't the Centurion(s) recognise Anders, as the Raider did?

- WTF is gonna happen when they jump back to the fleet? How the hell are Adama/Roslin going to explain it, and also prevent hysteria?

That'll be all :)

m57lyra
May 12th, 2008, 12:45 PM
Coupla my own questions...

- Somebody else already asked this; why is Anders not locked up for shooting Gaeta?

- Why didn't other Centurions respond when the one in the Hybrid room was shot up?

- Why didn't the Centurion(s) recognise Anders, as the Raider did?

- WTF is gonna happen when they jump back to the fleet? How the hell are Adama/Roslin going to explain it, and also prevent hysteria?

That'll be all :)

1. Why would they when are the crap that kara pulled never got her locked up, CAllie wasn't locked up for killing Sharon, etc.

2. Maybe it was the only one left?

3. It took a bit of "handshaking" fo them to sync up. That opportnity wan't presented... ?

CellarDwellar
May 12th, 2008, 12:48 PM
- Somebody else already asked this; why is Anders not locked up for shooting Gaeta?

Because Anders is a mudpuppy?

Kidding.

Take a look at the context, and why he shot him; I don't remember the episode right now, so I can't give a completely...detailed...explanation...bleh. Too much academics going through my brain right now.

If I remember right; he shot him to gtfo. So really you can't lock him up, because Anders is well-respected and always been sane despite the fact that his girlfriend is a slutty nut case. I'd give him respects for just THAT, I'd give him a little leeway for an outburst of WTF.

- Why didn't other Centurions respond when the one in the Hybrid room was shot up?
Because they didn't want to.

They all have free wills on that ship, right? So, they don't WANT to do something, they don't do it.


- Why didn't the Centurion(s) recognise Anders, as the Raider did?

The raider may not have actually recognized Anders, it's all speculation right now. They may have backed off by order of one of the cylons thinking that the final five are on the fleet and didn't want them destroyed, and was receiving the orders at that time.

In reality, speculation is all that says "Hey, remember that raider ship? It recognized Anders as a cylon."


- WTF is gonna happen when they jump back to the fleet? How the hell are Adama/Roslin going to explain it, and also prevent hysteria?

All of this is in my opinion!

I think Adama is gonna be all WTH YOU DOIN', and Kara's going to explain with Athena, Leoben, and Anders backing her up. Since Athena is babbling, I'm sure Helo will join in, and I'm not so sure about Gaeta, but still. So once it's explained, Roslin's going to have the usual NO, NO, NO, YOU CAN'T DO THIS, THEY'RE CYLONS, YOU'RE CRAZY.

As for general panic, they're going to have to let themselves out of the bag and state that these cylons are with Kara Thrace, and they're the opposing side of the cylon civil war currently coming out. I mean, I could understand that; siding with the side that is pro-human sounds a lot nicer than getting stuck dead in the middle of a civil war, or losing the opportunity for REAL harmony and peace.

It's a big leap for both sides, so don't gimme no "Cylons have it easy" or "humans wouldn't understand" junk. Because in all honesty, I'm very sure most people would rather look for co-existence rather than fighting EVERYTHING, AND have to find earth.

Roslin always freaks out, Kara always flips someone off in her Kara way, and Adama is always angry as hell. I want some Apollo though!

Just speculation. /flex

Mongoletsi
May 12th, 2008, 01:06 PM
In reality, speculation is all that says "Hey, remember that raider ship? It recognized Anders as a cylon."
I'm almost entirely certain that the skinjobs have agreed that the reason the Raider stopped is because it recognised another Cylon?

I agree with your prediction for jumping back with the Basestar. It's the only way it can go but it will be pretty chaotic!

nckzvnbr
May 12th, 2008, 02:52 PM
So is Anders going to face any consequences for shooting Gaeta, a superior officer? Ander's conduct was not the result of an order given by Kara, the ship's CO, lawful or unlawful, he did it on his own initiative. If I were Adama, I would pull an Andrew Jackson, who shot a soldier for sleeping on watch.

Lady Snow
May 12th, 2008, 03:04 PM
So is Anders going to face any consequences for shooting Gaeta, a superior officer? Ander's conduct was not the result of an order given by Kara, the ship's CO, lawful or unlawful, he did it on his own initiative. If I were Adama, I would pull an Andrew Jackson, who shot a soldier for sleeping on watch.

He definitely should - though it might be better (read: 'funnier') if Peg-Leg Gaeta goes after Anders. :D

entil2001
May 12th, 2008, 03:06 PM
As anticipated, this episode effectively ends the “introductory” phase of the season arc, bringing Kara’s initial search for the path back to Earth to a close. It also takes the Cylon civil war into an unexpected direction, and Roslin receives an interesting challenge to her perspective from another dying cancer patient. Whether in active practice or quiet discussion, faith is at the center of the story.

Previous episodes had the more “human” side of the Cylon civil war decimated without the presence of a resurrection ship, so as the weakened army, it makes sense that they would find a potential alliance with the Humans a viable option. It’s also worth noting that the models in question have been represented by individuals with a particular brand of “love” (even if Boomer is playing for the other side now).

From the pragmatic perspective, they need help to survive, and if the hardliners among the Cylon are taking control, the Humans could also use all the help they can get. From a metaphysical perspective, both sides are searching for the “Final Five”, so there’s a common cause. The lethal scene between a Six and Barolay is more than enough to remind the audience that it’s still a tense and potentially disastrous arrangement. The wounds of New Caprica are evident on both sides.

Of course, that is in and of itself intriguing. How many of the Humans have had the opportunity to realize that the Cylons are not all mindless copies? They may come from the same template, but their personalities derive from a mixture of shared and individual experience. Exposure to Humans has unlocked, at least for some models, Humans traits. It’s been acknowledged in individual cases (as demonstrated by the trust given to Athena), but how will the Human masses, who were still isolated from most Cylons on New Caprica, deal with constant exposure? (Certainly Tigh, Tyrol, Tori, and Anders will have some interesting reactions.)

The hybrid’s jabbering to Kara ties in nicely with the final moments of “Razor”, and seems to give a direction for the new alliance to follow. In fact, much of what is happening in this episode fits the prophetic words of the very first hybrid: “The denial of the one true path, played out on a world not their own, will end soon enough. Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening, struggling with the knowledge of their true selves. The pain of revelation bringing new clarity and in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing. Enemies now joined as one. The way forward at once unthinkable, yet inevitable. And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering. I can see them all. The seven, now six, self-described machines who believe themselves without sin. But in time, it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of one splintering into many. And then, they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an angel. Not an end, but a beginning.”

The sleight of hand regarding the ringed planet and the comet was clever, lending far more question to the nature of Kara’s memories than I had suspected. I still don’t think Kara is the final Cylon, but she may be something apart from that entire discussion. After all, the Temple of Five on the algae planet (“Eye of Jupiter” and “Rapture”) was dedicated to the five priests (analogues to the Final Five, or so it seems) who worshipped “The One Who Cannot Be Named”. The natural assumption is that this “One” is the Cylon God, but what if it’s something very different? Is it possible that, like the thirteen Human colonies with one quite apart from the other twelve, there is a being above and apart from the twelve Cylons?

If the Final Five “come from the home of the thirteenth”, then the theory that the Final Five are genetic descendants of the previous cycle’s merging of Human and Cylon is further supported. If that process is possible, then Kara’s genetic legacy might be connected similarly to this “One”. The mandala, carried over the ages, could be a meme carried down through the genetic memory, bringing “death” in the sense of “change/renewal”.

The first hybrid’s words seem to be following a chronological path. The “world not their own” could easily be the New Caprica situation, as “denial of the one true path” could have been the decision not to pursue Earth. The four, of course, are the four newly revealed Cylons. Kara certainly appeared to be in the “midst of confusion”, after which Leoben found her. At this point, the enemies have indeed been “brought together by impossible longing”. It would seem that the path forward is soon to be defined, and it will not be pleasant.

As seemingly obvious as it seems, the one clawing “toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering” could certainly apply to Baltar. It could technically be Roslin, though she has always been in the role of the “dying leader”. Of course, since these are obvious connections, it’s likely that the revelation will involve someone else.

Roslin’s own journey through mortality seems to confirm her role as the “dying leader” (who, apparently, will soon learn the truth about the “opera house”). Considering how long the series has drawn the distinction between the Humans’ “Lords of Kobol” and the Cylon “God”, it’s about time they had a deeper discussion on the subject. The interesting thing here is the underlying imagery that Baltar continues to utilize, which seems to connect to the collective unconscious of both Human and Cylon. More evidence, perhaps, that he is the final Cylon after all.

In terms of Roslin herself, the discussions with Emily have actually led her to wonder if Baltar is not as nutty as he seems. Given her absolute disgust with Baltar and distrust in every word that comes out of his mouth, it’s realistic for something like this, a confrontation with her apparently inevitable fate, to consider his words outside of that context. It would be a stunning turn of events if Roslin were to admit, on any level, that Baltar is right. Then again, with a basestar full of Cylons coming to visit, she’ll likely have other things on her mind.


John Keegan
Reprinted with permission
Original source: c. Critical Myth, 2008
All rights reserved
Link: http://www.criticalmyth.com

m57lyra
May 12th, 2008, 07:09 PM
Oh... Just had a thought.

The dying leader COULD be Baltar. Since he has fashioned himself as a *religious* leader. And he certainly needs redeeming...

Hmmm... how will he die?

m57lyra
May 12th, 2008, 07:19 PM
As seemingly obvious as it seems, the one clawing “toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering” could certainly apply to Baltar. It could technically be Roslin, though she has always been in the role of the “dying leader”. Of course, since these are obvious connections, it’s likely that the revelation will involve someone else.

Sheesh... I need to catch up on posts before *I* post again.

Baltar has been in the opera house with the Six as well as Roslin. That couped with the fact that Natalie is now on board, as well as Caprica Six, and Hera is apparently gravitating toward Caprica. I think there is an awful lot to be played out there...

I have a hard time believing the story is going to unfold in such a predictable manner as to have Rosyln turn out to be the dying leader, "as expected." Even a newbie watching for the first time this season could guess that one. Every part of the series has had very serious twists, coming out of left field. Baltar as the dying leader is a good candidate for season 4.

Now, will someone PLEASE answer me two questions;

1. Why hasn't Roslyn simply done another injection of Hera's blood? Why hasn't this been addressed?

2. Why did Kara not siply start by returning to the Ionian Nebula, where she could "hear" it clearly?

Ok, 3:

3. Wo the heck has been taking care of Hera?

Amakusa
May 12th, 2008, 07:26 PM
1. Why would they when are the crap that kara pulled never got her locked up, CAllie wasn't locked up for killing Sharon, etc.


Just a little nit, but they did lock her up.

An-Alteran
May 12th, 2008, 08:55 PM
Erm. It's totally a genetic impossibility for a single pair to repopulate a planet*. You need something like 50,000 people (according to Baltar)

* Do they teach that in Kansas now? ;)
No it is not immpossible. It is just very unlikely, unless their lifespans were somehow increased so they could have more children.

They would also need to have genetic errors that DON'T OVERLAP.

If they had overlapping genetic errors, the mutations from their children's children could be very bad.

wiseowl777
May 12th, 2008, 08:58 PM
Sheesh... I need to catch up on posts before *I* post again.

I have a hard time believing the story is going to unfold in such a predictable manner as to have Rosyln turn out to be the dying leader, "as expected." Even a newbie watching for the first time this season could guess that one. Every part of the series has had very serious twists, coming out of left field. Baltar as the dying leader is a good candidate for season 4.

Now, will someone PLEASE answer me two questions;

1. Why hasn't Roslyn simply done another injection of Hera's blood? Why hasn't this been addressed?

2. Why did Kara not siply start by returning to the Ionian Nebula, where she could "hear" it clearly?

Ok, 3:

3. Wo the heck has been taking care of Hera?


-have u considered lee as a candidate for dying leader?- after all hes in the gov now

1. and 2. i think its just more of an assumption that thats what occured. like she probably tried that or discovered it wouldnt work again... like she built up and immunity or tolerance for that treatment.......... 2. im sure she either went back there 1st or went in that general direction of where it would help her to "hear" it better

3. good point... maybe... ummm... a cousin? -haha

Dusk
May 12th, 2008, 09:58 PM
Hell, I would've shot Gaeta too, the whiny girl. Tell you who I really hate though, and that is Seelix. What an arrogant, narrow-minded harpy. She'll be next to bite the space dust.

Trek_Girl42
May 12th, 2008, 10:35 PM
Hell, I would've shot Gaeta too, the whiny girl. Tell you who I really hate though, and that is Seelix. What an arrogant, narrow-minded harpy. She'll be next to bite the space dust.A "whiny girl" and an "arrogant narrow-minded harpy"? (I'll leave those, because that is an unrelated rant all in itself, and if you can't figure out what's derogatory about your labeling, well.....I'm not going to change your mind)

First of all, Gaeta. From his perspective. The guy wants to jump them back to the fleet because they are about to go on a stupid foolish mission that looks like a trap led by a woman who tried to have him jettisoned out an airlock just so she could feel better about herself, and now from his perspective looks like she could very well be a cylon. And he's a "whiny girl"?

Seelix. From her perspective. Again, she sees a woman who looks like a cylon who wants to follow a known cylon who she has been influenced by in the past into what looks like a trap that will kill them all. We as viewers don't see that because we like Starbuck- she's the hero of the story. But from Seelix's perspective, Gaeta's perspective, anyone who isn't her close buddy, that's not the case. Yet somehow she's a harpy? For having a sense of self preservation? These characters are reacting the way they are because all of their lives are at stake. And frak following orders when the orders are coming from someone who isn't fit to be in command.

Sgt. Mattias was just killed by Leoben's heavy raider. Why wouldn't they complain and fight against the orders especially since Kara's situation is so suspicious as it is? She was not acting like a commander in sound mind and judgment during the two months aboard Demetrius, and honestly, if I were in that position I'd rather go back to Adama as a mutineer then go on the half-baked basestar hunt walking into a cylon civil war that may or may not exist and either way is likely to get me killed (and it did get both Barolay and Mattias killed).

salmidach
May 13th, 2008, 07:07 AM
This line from the hybrid will have strong meaning surely

"the children of the one reborn, shall find their own country"

Children of the one reborn, surely this is the children of the cylons, both hera and the child of tyrol will find their own country?

could it be that the only 2 too find earth will be the two children (adam and eve) and these two will start the whole process off again.

maybe there is an agreement by both sides that neither can settle on earth and agree that only the two children could

Dusk
May 13th, 2008, 07:10 AM
Haha, calm down Trek_Girl42, I didn't mean for my comments to be taken so literally. I completely see the logical characterization of Gaeta and Seelix, and really only passed harsh judgment on the two because I dislike them in general. That, and I wanted to be a tad facetious. I have no doubt an explosive round to the leg would be immensely painful, and maybe Seelix was experiencing a little PMS in this episode. Hell, who knows. It's all part of the fun I guess.

Pic
May 13th, 2008, 07:12 AM
First of all, Gaeta. From his perspective. The guy wants to jump them back to the fleet because they are about to go on a stupid foolish mission that looks like a trap led by a woman who tried to have him jettisoned out an airlock just so she could feel better about herself, and now from his perspective looks like she could very well be a cylon. And he's a "whiny girl"?

Seelix. From her perspective. Again, she sees a woman who looks like a cylon who wants to follow a known cylon who she has been influenced by in the past into what looks like a trap that will kill them all. We as viewers don't see that because we like Starbuck- she's the hero of the story. But from Seelix's perspective, Gaeta's perspective, anyone who isn't her close buddy, that's not the case. Yet somehow she's a harpy? For having a sense of self preservation? These characters are reacting the way they are because all of their lives are at stake. And frak following orders when the orders are coming from someone who isn't fit to be in command.

Sgt. Mattias was just killed by Leoben's heavy raider. Why wouldn't they complain and fight against the orders especially since Kara's situation is so suspicious as it is? She was not acting like a commander in sound mind and judgment during the two months aboard Demetrius, and honestly, if I were in that position I'd rather go back to Adama as a mutineer then go on the half-baked basestar hunt walking into a cylon civil war that may or may not exist and either way is likely to get me killed (and it did get both Barolay and Mattias killed).

Stressing comments in bold by me... I agree. Seelix and Felix were voicing concerns, albeit in a frustrated, I-have-no-authority, sort of way. Um, because Starbuck was frakkin' nuts?!?!

Not until Anders shot Gaeta and Helo attempted to relieve her of command did she seem to snap out of it. It's like a switch went off and she decided not to risk the entire crew listening to the reservations her XO and managed a compromise.

Pic
May 13th, 2008, 07:16 AM
maybe Seelix was experiencing a little PMS in this episode. Hell, who knows. It's all part of the fun I guess.

uhh... Pretending to be a Macho Stud???
I didn't see any of that from Seelix. Now, Anders...

TameFarrar
May 13th, 2008, 07:39 AM
YAY :D

Finally an episode that is moving things along IMHO.

One thing I have noticed in all the reading I have done in this Seasons folder :)...MYSELF included...if a person likes a character...we can justify any action they take :)


So anyway. I was very happy with the Demitrius aspect of this episode. Things moved along, the story line moved along we had some new questions pop up BUT we also got some answers as well. THAT is what I have been looking forward to from BSG.

To be quite honest after the first scene with Roslin and the lady with cancer...I picked up my book and read through every single one of their scenes. I was bored after that first over the top scene. I did try to get back into their by play when things came back around to them but ....nope ended up being more interested in what was going on in the book I was reading...until the Kara/Demetrius/Basestar story came back.

Sharon was great. The eye opening moment for the Eights when Sharon told them that the fact that they didn't stick when things got bad and instead they constantly *flipped from side to side* was thier downfall was priceless.

Anders wanting so badly to place his hand in the goo.... great moment
Kara and the Hybrid...so good.... the Hybrids words...is Kara the harbinger of death for the humans....or the cylons??? mmmmm

Kara being Kara was nice to see again. Anders being Emo (boring) and yet finally being curious about the cylons was interesting. The Main Six willing to accept that they too have flaws mentally and killing the other six.... intriguing to say the least. Geata...meh....his character lost my respect the day he sat on the witness stand and lied about the death list. If a character always acts as if he *deserves* the respect...rather than tries to earn it...meh. Geata has become that in my eyes. regardless of his good deeds...he was willing to do whatever he could to kill a person ...he was no better than those he refused to plead with to spare him in the airlock. The fact he wouldn't plead....makes an even bigger mockery of human life. He thinks himself above things because he made the sacrifice and he stated his case calmly no need to be irrational. He ...meh ;) So that kept it very interesting :D

Overall I sat there and just said outloud after it was all over...FinallY!!! :D

Trek_Girl42
May 13th, 2008, 09:03 AM
Haha, calm down Trek_Girl42, I didn't mean for my comments to be taken so literally. I completely see the logical characterization of Gaeta and Seelix, and really only passed harsh judgment on the two because I dislike them in general. That, and I wanted to be a tad facetious. I have no doubt an explosive round to the leg would be immensely painful, and maybe Seelix was experiencing a little PMS in this episode. Hell, who knows. It's all part of the fun I guess.:rolleyes: And it continues. When a the girl gets frustrated she has "PMS"? Try "SPS" (self preservation syndrome). Dusk, could you please look at the words you're using? There's nothing wrong with expressing distaste for the characters you mentioned, but when you don't like a male character and call him a "whiny girl" as insult, frankly you're insulting girls. When you don't like a female character you're calling her a "harpy" you're still insulting girls. (and yes, a LOT of people do it, I'm sure unintentionally, but it's not right) It takes away from your initial point and yes, made me very mad. :mad: ;) /OT rant

Pic-CollSwan- :lol:

And back to the ep at hand.....
Stressing comments in bold by me... I agree. Seelix and Felix were voicing concerns, albeit in a frustrated, I-have-no-authority, sort of way. Um, because Starbuck was frakkin' nuts?!?!

Not until Anders shot Gaeta and Helo attempted to relieve her of command did she seem to snap out of it. It's like a switch went off and she decided not to risk the entire crew listening to the reservations her XO and managed a compromise.Exactly. Shame it took a bullet for her to get the picture- I hope she actually realizes this if Gaeta loses his leg.....she'd better not just ignore the whole thing. But then we saw Happy "Boss I Found Earth" Starbuck when she spotted the "comet" and it's easy to forget that's what it took to get to this point..... :P

Also, regarding the whole no punishment for Anders, they're probably just waiting to get back to the fleet to let Adama sort them out- frankly they have ALL done things on this mission that could potentially earn a little R&R in Galactica's brig (I don't get why going to the brig sounds like such a bad thing at this point- it's their equivalent of vacation! :P), so Adama will probably hand out one of those little pardons that have been flowing so freely.....though still with a possible exception to Anders. However Adama is going to be more than a little busy with "What's Coming to Dinner". ;)

Skydiver
May 13th, 2008, 09:36 AM
This line from the hybrid will have strong meaning surely

"the children of the one reborn, shall find their own country"

Children of the one reborn, surely this is the children of the cylons, both hera and the child of tyrol will find their own country?

could it be that the only 2 too find earth will be the two children (adam and eve) and these two will start the whole process off again.

maybe there is an agreement by both sides that neither can settle on earth and agree that only the two children could
or, children of the one reborn....roslyn 'dies' of her cancer and is resurrected, probably by cylon tech, and she and 'dad' (adama) lead their 'children' (the fleet) to a new life on earth

An-Alteran
May 13th, 2008, 10:17 AM
... Don't forget what the Razor Hybrid said: "...not an end, but a beggining."
So, the Harbinger of death who will lead them to their end... may be rather, the harbinger of hope who will lead them to their begining!

DeltaWhiskey
May 13th, 2008, 11:27 AM
I've just skimmed over most of this thread, and seen this issue tossed back and forth. I don't know if anything definitive has been reached, but I thought I would throw in my $0.02.

The planet is not Jupiter. Not even close. For a variety of technical reasons I will gladly get into if anyone pokes me about it.

Nor is it any other body in Earth's Solar System.

Lady Snow
May 13th, 2008, 11:48 AM
I've just skimmed over most of this thread, and seen this issue tossed back and forth. I don't know if anything definitive has been reached, but I thought I would throw in my $0.02.

The planet is not Jupiter. Not even close. For a variety of technical reasons I will gladly get into if anyone pokes me about it.

Nor is it any other body in Earth's Solar System.


Don't worry - you're absolutely right. :)

AeronPrometheus
May 13th, 2008, 12:27 PM
You would think that a civilization that can build FTL drives and massive spaceships, they would have better medical technology. Hope Gaeta gets a nice cybernetic leg. =)

You'd think that a country with more nuclear firepower than the rest of the world, one that practically owns outer space, has been to the moon, sent probes beyond the known limits of space, has computers that can out think humans, has science equipment that can create micro black holes... that we, America, would have cured cancer, AIDs, etc. by now. Let's face it, medicine is not our priority right now. I guess the colonies had the same vice.

nckzvnbr
May 13th, 2008, 12:50 PM
Most characters on this show have been whiny at one point or another. For god's sake, Kara threw a temper tantrum until she got her way. Better get rid of anyone that is human then, toss 'em out the ole airlock.

salmidach
May 13th, 2008, 12:54 PM
or, children of the one reborn....roslyn 'dies' of her cancer and is resurrected, probably by cylon tech, and she and 'dad' (adama) lead their 'children' (the fleet) to a new life on earth

i've had another thought on this line and it's importance.

looking at the christian religion right now, Jesus was reborn and by doing so enabled his children to enter the kingdom of heaven.

now is it me or is Balter being reborn into something of a religuous leader and his children will be his followers and only they will be allowed onto earth

Mongoletsi
May 13th, 2008, 01:12 PM
The dying leader COULD be Baltar. Since he has fashioned himself as a *religious* leader. And he certainly needs redeeming...
I agree. There has to be a twist depriving Roslin of her "destiny". Although in the final episode it'll probably twist back again of course.

Mongoletsi
May 13th, 2008, 01:18 PM
1. Why hasn't Roslyn simply done another injection of Hera's blood? Why hasn't this been addressed?

2. Why did Kara not siply start by returning to the Ionian Nebula, where she could "hear" it clearly?

Ok, 3:

3. Wo the heck has been taking care of Hera?

1. I'm assuming the parents won't allow it? I'd have thought they'd rise above what'd happened and show the president some real compassion.

2. Seems such a simple question doesn't it? I'm surprised it's not been mentioned before.

3. Again that's a top question. There was absolutely no reason for Helo to go when Gaeta was going too. Although Adama was probably relying on Helo to keep Starbuck in line. As for Athena; there's no reason she needed to go. In Adama's place I'd prevent her from volunteering.

Mongoletsi
May 13th, 2008, 01:20 PM
Hell, I would've shot Gaeta too, the whiny girl. Tell you who I really hate though, and that is Seelix. What an arrogant, narrow-minded harpy. She'll be next to bite the space dust.
Whiny girl? Harpy? I frakin love Aussies ;)


... and maybe Seelix was experiencing a little PMS in this episode.
You were doing well up to there mate ;)

Mongoletsi
May 13th, 2008, 01:26 PM
[Gaeta, Airlocked]
Heh, I really really don't like the idea of Gaeta being The Fifth, and I think it's unlikely anyway. However do remember that it was Tyrol who ultimately stopped Gaeta being flushed... the final five can't hurt another, I'm sure the Hybrid said?

Dusk
May 13th, 2008, 05:43 PM
when you don't like a male character and call him a "whiny girl" as insult, frankly you're insulting girls. When you don't like a female character you're calling her a "harpy" you're still insulting girls.

Etymology was never my forte. But come on, you might as well say that if I call a character a bi*** then I'm insulting dogs. And engendering words that are used as derogatory is not recommended. Anyone can be a dick head, but that doesn't take a potshot at men in general. Perhaps I tread a fine line, but I know my limits.

As for the PMS comment, no doubt a clichéd male chauvinistic expression on my part. Then again it is a natural physiological occurrence in all women, marked by irritability, tension, and unhappiness. So it's not as if my speculations are baseless. Nor are yours, as I have pointed out. So here's where we draw the truce line. And I apologize sincerely if I have offended yourself or any other forum poster on here. I will do well to curb my flagrant use of words in future.

My bottom line is, though, Gaeta can lose a leg, an eye, or even a life, and I wouldn't miss it. And Seelix... let's just say I believe there are many other female characters on the show that garner greater respect than her.

Chev's Ron
May 13th, 2008, 05:45 PM
I thought that. But in practical terms it's impossible they be the sole progenitors of this cycle of "humanity".

Not quite, If they are anywhere near the creationist theory of human decent, then supposedly Nick and Hera have a very complex strain of DNA. Being cylons and the new generation of gods children, it is quite possible that their cylon DNA is sufficient for their decedents to "procreate" without the usual DNA degradation/mutation from incest. (In fact DNA degradation from Incest actually didn't happen until about 2000 years ago, before then most family's that married "in" supposedly went without many physical issues their entire lives.

That would explain the blood platelets of the colonials being different from the round ones that we know of. perhaps we ourselves are part machine. ;)


My Leading theory is that the humans and cylons find an empty earth, and as a result from mixed interbreeding or a virus, they "devolve" into cavemen and lose all form of sanity. It would be natural for all forms of technology if left unattended to degrade, rust then perish over the years. (Anyone remember the story about the Myan battery?)

The only other outcome besides finding a star trek type earth is a galactica 1980-esque earth or at least 1920. That way the colonials could secretly integrate their technology with earth and stuff like that. If not, then I am looking forward to seeing Lee Adama in a suit and tie meet the President in his suit and tie and wonder if they were spying on the colonials and adopting their way of dress.

((PPS, The suit and tie deal along with the WWII era microphones on galactica leads me to believe that we will NOT find earth as it is today.)) Either that, or make way Christianity and Islam, the Lords of Kobol are coming...

-------
Originally Posted by DigiFluid View Post
Was the gas giant Jupiter? I know she'd said gas giant before, but as far as we know (in RL I mean) gas giants are pretty common...
-------------------
That is impossible, our solar system doesn't have a binary star system.

However, after seeing the gas planet in the zoom to earth, I can reasonably assume that by looking at the planet we the viewers know where earth is. (Sorta like the constilations)

An-Alteran
May 13th, 2008, 06:37 PM
...looking at the christian religion right now, Jesus was reborn and by doing so enabled his children to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Errr... no.

Jesus died on the Cross, conquering sin by taking the punishment destined for those who believe in Christ- that is: Humiliation and separation from God (Jesus is a personal aspect of God in Christian theology, meaning that God himself humiliated and shunned Himself so as to take the punishment established for those who would have otherwise been lost).

Jesus in doing this fulfilled every type and shadow, every prophesy involving the Messiah saving the sinners and fulfilling the Covenant between God and man unto a new Covenant.

The Resurrection was the final stroke. The final note in the salvation chorus.

In Resurrection, Christ proved Himself God the Messiah.
He conquered death, establishing that death is of no concern for the believer.
He became the example to assure each believer of their own pending resurrection.

People are said to be able to enter heaven because of the sacrifice and death of Jesus Christ on the Cross as the act of taking the punishment the believing sinner deserved.

Just needed to clarify the theology here...

Chev's Ron
May 13th, 2008, 07:25 PM
[Agreed, thankfully all of us BSGers can voice our opinions on the subject of spirituality Like I said earlier, I enjoy the constant deep theology questions both for and against God on the show. It still hasn't shaken both my faith, personal experiances, etc. Neither are my secular friends bothered by the religious aspect of the show, they just see it as a great fantasy. Sometimes the best fantasy is reality mixed with the imagination, and that is "BS"G lol. DRM is the best scifi writer that I can think of.

Heh, I got science and evidence that points to the one we both know... and some clam vice versa...
---------------------------
Anyway..., since the Lords of Kobol are probialy more on the minds of those surfing the forums, I thought I would add a couple of things to my previous post.


1. Kara being the harbinger of Death I take as her being the bringer of death to the cylon-colonial cycle.

2. Leoben and Kara will present a continuing problem for anders. (Although when Anders is outed Kara might go balistic.) Though not as much since she is actually looking forward to meeting the 5 to lead her to earth..

((Anders... Sweetie. Is there any secrets that you have been keeping from me.. I am your wife you know.))

3. With Adama's "sudden" belief in the god(s), does that mean that we will see a less... shall we say gloomy adama? Does he now have more hope for humanities future?

4. With the hybrid spouting off... The Light of Gods flame... or something like that before she started talking fluently, was she talking about kara being the light of gods flame... and the harbringer of death, or Six-Baltar?

5. I wonder if the "sixes" are the only lesbian cylon models. Despite various personality differences we have seen, some traits are common and almost an unchangable fact among models. Just a thought.

6. I doubt the fleet will enjoy looking out their windows and seeing raiders flying parol with their vipers. (No one would forget new caprica)

Dusk
May 13th, 2008, 08:02 PM
5. I wonder if the "sixes" are the only lesbian cylon models. Despite various personality differences we have seen, some traits are common and almost an unchangable fact among models. Just a thought.

I believe the Cylons are not as rigid in their sexuality as we, or even the Colonials, are. I doubt they would think in terms of gay or straight. For them, the thrill is in the sensual experience, regardless of social stigmas. Perhaps this is a philosophy we can all aspire to.

pristinaheather
May 13th, 2008, 09:20 PM
I didn't read most of this thread, so please forgive me if this topic has already been brought up and discussed to death.

What did Leoban say to Anders in the raptor right after Starbuck said they where in the right place and she could hear the noise? Because to me it sounded like Leoban said if Anders heard it too, than Starbuck was like him. Am I insane?

Trek_Girl42
May 13th, 2008, 10:30 PM
[Agreed, thankfully all of us BSGers can voice our opinions on the subject of spirituality Like I said earlier, I enjoy the constant deep theology questions both for and against God on the show. It still hasn't shaken both my faith, personal experiances, etc. Neither are my secular friends bothered by the religious aspect of the show, they just see it as a great fantasy. Sometimes the best fantasy is reality mixed with the imagination, and that is "BS"G lol. DRM is the best scifi writer that I can think of.

Heh, I got science and evidence that points to the one we both know... and some clam vice versa...
---------------------------
Anyway..., since the Lords of Kobol are probialy more on the minds of those surfing the forums, I thought I would add a couple of things to my previous post.


1. Kara being the harbinger of Death I take as her being the bringer of death to the cylon-colonial cycle.

2. Leoben and Kara will present a continuing problem for anders. (Although when Anders is outed Kara might go balistic.) Though not as much since she is actually looking forward to meeting the 5 to lead her to earth..

((Anders... Sweetie. Is there any secrets that you have been keeping from me.. I am your wife you know.))

3. With Adama's "sudden" belief in the god(s), does that mean that we will see a less... shall we say gloomy adama? Does he now have more hope for humanities future?

4. With the hybrid spouting off... The Light of Gods flame... or something like that before she started talking fluently, was she talking about kara being the light of gods flame... and the harbringer of death, or Six-Baltar?

5. I wonder if the "sixes" are the only lesbian cylon models. Despite various personality differences we have seen, some traits are common and almost an unchangable fact among models. Just a thought.

6. I doubt the fleet will enjoy looking out their windows and seeing raiders flying parol with their vipers. (No one would forget new caprica)
1. I like it, and agree.

2. Wouldn't it be weird if after all this time, with Lee, and Anders, if Starbuck ended up with Leoben- and I don't necessarily mean in a sexual or romantic sense (though there is a certain level of that) so much as spiritually and emotionally, he was the one she "chose"(yes, I hate it on shows where the character "chooses" who she/he's going to be with, but I'm not sure how else to phrase this), rather than the other two who she thinks are human right now. That certainly looks like the direction she's headed in at the moment. Right now I'm getting (more than ever) that she and Leoben are made for each other in so many ways, though not talking in a "shippy" sense, as such.

3. I don't think Adama believes believes. I think that at this point he believes in the possibility of there being something more, which he was never open to in the past. He went along with Roslin's visions because there was indeed evidence supporting her beliefs. I think he's at the point now where he'd go along with it without evidence. But he's doesn't truly firmly believe in anything beyond in the sense that so many of the other characters do, not yet anyway that we've seen any evidence to.

5. I think we can pretty much assume that none of the models hold any reservations in terms of sexuality- they don't box* themselves in to certain categories. D'Anna slept with Six, Boomer is sleeping with Cavil (presumably), which looks icky to us, but they don't care.



I didn't read most of this thread, so please forgive me if this topic has already been brought up and discussed to death.

What did Leoban say to Anders in the raptor right after Starbuck said they where in the right place and she could hear the noise? Because to me it sounded like Leoban said if Anders heard it too, than Starbuck was like him. Am I insane?I've watched the episode three times now, rewound that particular scene probably six, and I'm still not sure what he's saying. :P Hoping the podcast will clarify- or if anyone here knows!


*Edit: that was unintentional :P

Matt G
May 14th, 2008, 03:34 AM
1. Insanity on the Demitrius. Is shooting each other on the bridge really a good idea?

2. Messy stuff on the base ship, old grudges die hard but that's halfway understandable though still annoying.

3. "The missing 3 will give you the Five". I filed that down as they'll need the help of Caprica Six, Athena and one other Cylon infiltrator yet to be found to ID the Final Five. Forgot about D'Anna but that works as well.

4. The Final Five can find Earth? Er...it's the first they've known about it!

5. Surprised Roslin's taking Baltar's ramblings halfway seriously but as has been said before, the Admiral will have bigger fish to fry soon enough!

m57lyra
May 14th, 2008, 05:51 AM
I didn't read most of this thread, so please forgive me if this topic has already been brought up and discussed to death.

What did Leoban say to Anders in the raptor right after Starbuck said they where in the right place and she could hear the noise? Because to me it sounded like Leoban said if Anders heard it too, than Starbuck was like him. Am I insane?

I wodered about that too. That is on my agenda to figure out when I go back and watch tomorrow night.

omega431
May 14th, 2008, 08:17 AM
I wodered about that too. That is on my agenda to figure out when I go back and watch tomorrow night.
Few not you.

<something> struck music vibrates in all of us. Few can hear it, Kara is one of the few.

Mongoletsi
May 14th, 2008, 09:11 AM
1. Insanity on the Demitrius. Is shooting each other on the bridge really a good idea?
In the BRIDGE? Ouch! I thought he got him in the leg?!

I'll get my coat...

An-Alteran
May 14th, 2008, 10:01 AM
I believe the Cylons are not as rigid in their sexuality as we, or even the Colonials, are. I doubt they would think in terms of gay or straight. For them, the thrill is in the sensual experience, regardless of social stigmas. Perhaps this is a philosophy we can all aspire to.
A philosophy we can all aspire to?

Nay, rather, shrink back in terror of...


Sexuality is the most intense and deep element of humanity save only spirituality.

To take such a deep and core element of our life for granted... to treat it shallowly and loosely... without boundaries, temperance, or care, can only bring about shame and destruction.

peragrin
May 14th, 2008, 10:48 AM
To take such a deep and core element of our life for granted... to treat it shallowly and loosely... without boundaries, temperance, or care, can only bring about shame and destruction.
Given the cylon willingness to slaughter humans without care or remorse, and then have problems when humans fight back in a similar way I must say i agree with you.

You can't slaughter billions of humans and then hold it against us when we drown just one of you.

I hate double standards. take responsibility for your actions. It is the difference between Athena and the other 8's.

An-Alteran
May 14th, 2008, 05:09 PM
Given the cylon willingness to slaughter humans without care or remorse, and then have problems when humans fight back in a similar way I must say i agree with you.

You can't slaughter billions of humans and then hold it against us when we drown just one of you.

I hate double standards. take responsibility for your actions. It is the difference between Athena and the other 8's.

Indeed.

Remember what did the Razor Hybrid said?

"...they will think themselves without sin... but their sins will consume them."

pristinaheather
May 14th, 2008, 07:43 PM
well i rewatched it.... over and over again. and im still not sure, but i do think thats what he said. what the hell.

Albee
May 14th, 2008, 11:25 PM
Thinking about how the cylon-human mythology fits in with recent events on BSG. We know that the cylons believe that "All of this has happened before...all of this will happen again"....so what do we know has happened before from the colonial scriptures.....

(1) There is the Tomb of Athena.

Athena was a deity among the Lords of Kobol whose tomb was located on the planet Kobol. According to legend she threw herself off a mountain due to sorrow about mankind's departure from Kobol aboard the galleon.

(2) The Gates of Hera

The Gates of Hera is a mountain pass between two peaks on the planet Kobol. It leads the way to the Tomb of Athena. It is also said that the leaders of the Twelve Tribes of Kobol passed the pass on their way off-planet.

(3) The Arrow of Apollo

The arrow points the way to Earth after it is placed in the bow of the statue of Sagittarius. This sets off a chain of events that seals the tomb's door, and seemingly "transports" those inside the tomb to a grassy hill surrounded by megaliths engraved with zodiac symbols representing each world of the Twelve Colonies. This room is a star-map which gives the positions of celestial objects from the viewpoint of someone actually standing on Earth itself.


So how will it happen again ....... well we have all the correct character names in place this generation / cycle.......so will Athena die somehow before the end of the show?

More interestingly, hasn't Appollo become a representative for Satittarius (might be wrong on this point) which would fit in nicely will the Arrow of Appollo being the thing that needs to be set in the statue.

nckzvnbr
May 14th, 2008, 11:32 PM
Apollo is the representative for Caprica.

Albee
May 14th, 2008, 11:43 PM
Apollo is the representative for Caprica.

Dammit - that blows my theory out of the water! :D

*Note to self - don't get drunk and then think about BSG as you come up with stuff that doesn't make sense!*

Mongoletsi
May 15th, 2008, 03:37 AM
Sexuality is the most intense and deep element of humanity save only spirituality.
Disagreed. It's a basic function of all mammals so why attach deep meaning to it? Sure it can intensify a bond, but also it's nice just to get yer rocks off sometimes innit. Off topic, again...

AeronPrometheus
May 15th, 2008, 09:27 AM
I believe the Cylons are not as rigid in their sexuality as we, or even the Colonials, are. I doubt they would think in terms of gay or straight. For them, the thrill is in the sensual experience, regardless of social stigmas. Perhaps this is a philosophy we can all aspire to.

Agreed, cause if I recall all those Eights were getting pretty friendly with Boomer when she first stepped aboard a Base Star at the end of season one.


A philosophy we can all aspire to?

Nay, rather, shrink back in terror of...


Sexuality is the most intense and deep element of humanity save only spirituality.

To take such a deep and core element of our life for granted... to treat it shallowly and loosely... without boundaries, temperance, or care, can only bring about shame and destruction.

No it is not, it is a core part of instinct; Reproduce. Because we're sentient we try to make it special for us by attaching emotion and meaning to it that wasn't there to begin with. I think that's a good thing, sex can ignite a whole range of emotions, hell even a passionate moment between two people can be just as amazing. But giving one's sexuality or inhibitions more freedom doesn't cheapen it.

I think that Cylons regard any degree of sexuality with great respect. Six kissing Six was a prime example, the peaceful Six felt it necessary for New Caprica Six to understand just how she felt about her in light of using Ander's gun to kill her seconds later. Also think about Boomer's dancing, her relationship with Cavil (As gross as that is for a completely different reason), Cylons are innocently and/or intentionally exploring human sexuality and for genuine reasons, why leave something out because real humans consider it a taboo or "cheap"?

Six: "Have you ever had sex five-way on a bridge during a lightening storm with a jumbo pack of beef franks and strawberry ice cream?"

"No..."

Six: "Let's try it!"

^_^

SoulReaver
May 15th, 2008, 10:18 AM
Sexuality is the most intense and deep element of humanity save only spirituality.http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/ouch.gif an attempt to place carnal pleasure on the same level as religion ?

heresy ! blashpheme ! http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/mad.gif

recant & repent ! http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/images/perso/macce.gif

(in nomine patris et filii et spiritus sancti etc.)

An-Alteran
May 15th, 2008, 07:13 PM
Getting Off-topic:


Disagreed. It's a basic function of all mammals so why attach deep meaning to it? Sure it can intensify a bond, but also it's nice just to get yer rocks off sometimes innit. Off topic, again...

If you wish to degrade humanity to the state of 'nothing more than an animal', that is your prerogative.

But you can't deny that it is a core a deep part of the human being.

It is the most potent element of our being.

Why relegate it to some totally irreverent position in the human life?


http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/ouch.gif an attempt to place carnal pleasure on the same level as religion ?

heresy ! blashpheme ! http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/icones/smilies/mad.gif

recant & repent ! http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/images/perso/macce.gif

(in nomine patris et filii et spiritus sancti etc.)

Apparently some people don't have an advanced understanding of the English language.

The phrase: "Save only" means "with the one exception off".

So what I said was: "With the one exception being spirituality".
Thus I was not putting them on the same level, but identifying spirituality as the one more core and deep element of the human experience.

An-Alteran, One.

[email protected], Zero.



No it is not, it is a core part of instinct; Reproduce. Because we're sentient we try to make it special for us by attaching emotion and meaning to it that wasn't there to begin with. I think that's a good thing, sex can ignite a whole range of emotions, hell even a passionate moment between two people can be just as amazing. But giving one's sexuality or inhibitions more freedom doesn't cheapen it.
Simply put, you are looking at reality through atheistic glasses.

I am not, because I am not an atheist.

The reason you disagree is not because I am wrong. Rather, because your assumptions don't allow for anything more than a purposeless physical reality.

Pic
May 16th, 2008, 05:05 AM
Um... to bring it back around to the episode...

Kara's expression when she saw the basestar with the gas giant, etc - basically the scene of her visions -- has been bugging me. Her hysterical laughter still points to drastic mood swings and possible mental unhingement (which isn't even a word, but whatever).

Outside of her "destinty" is anyone else still worried about her mental state? Granted she had some clarity and sense knocked into her with the whole attempted mutiny scene, but is it to be short lived?

(Not the most interesting discussion topic, I'm just trying to move the conversation away from ..... well, back into an area that would be somewhat benign.)

SoulReaver
May 16th, 2008, 07:07 AM
staying off-topic :


Getting Off-topic:

Apparently some people don't have an advanced understanding of the English language.

The phrase: "Save only" means "with the one exception off".

So what I said was: "With the one exception being spirituality".
Thus I was not putting them on the same level, but identifying spirituality as the one more core and deep element of the human experience.

An-Alteran, One.

[email protected], Zero.apparently other people don't have an advanced understanding of the english language, basic logic or humour (although they seem to have an inordinate susceptibility to the latter)

and evidently you're taking my post not to mention this whole issue way too seriously, so heck just for argument's sake & for the fun of it :
by saying that 'sex is above all except spirituality' you are stating that the latter is not below the former, in other words that it's either above or equal to the former (same as in maths see) in other words you still leave open the possibility of placing both on the same level, which alone suffices to constitute blasphemy, and even in the best of cases you're still implying, in both your previous and your present post, that the former - albeit on a strictly lower level - is nevertheless damn pretty close to the latter thereby relegating the latter to a level barely above the former (roughly 3.14%) when the latter should be considered above all other notions including and especially the former by a factor of no less than...infinity, and therefore shouldn't even share the same post as the former let alone the same paragraph let alone the same sentence

so the charges of heresy & sacrilege still stand http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/images/perso/oth.gif

[email protected] + Grand Inquisition, one
an-alteran, zero, pwned, burnt, crucified

Lady Snow
May 16th, 2008, 07:49 AM
Getting back on-topic...


Kara's expression when she saw the basestar with the gas giant, etc - basically the scene of her visions -- has been bugging me. Her hysterical laughter still points to drastic mood swings and possible mental unhingement (which isn't even a word, but whatever).

Outside of her "destinty" is anyone else still worried about her mental state? Granted she had some clarity and sense knocked into her with the whole attempted mutiny scene, but is it to be short lived?

I guess I had forgotten that Kara's still crazy as all get out. Granted, she's always been a bit bipolar (in the way that water's kinda wet), but the obsessive-crazy that she'd been displaying the past few episodes went far beyond that. I don't even know if what happened during the mutiny scene can be called "clarity and sense" (and, FWIW, she didn't back down until after Anders shot Gaeta). Yeah, I don't have much, but the relative sanity of those who are in command is a decent jumping-off point - at least until tonight's episode. :D

Mongoletsi
May 16th, 2008, 07:56 AM
If you wish to degrade humanity to the state of 'nothing more than an animal', that is your prerogative.

But you can't deny that it is a core a deep part of the human being.

It is the most potent element of our being.

Why relegate it to some totally irreverent position in the human life?
I'm going to ignore the religious aspect - as most smart people do* - and say simply this; it's only a "core, deep part" because over time we've made it thus.

Our closest primate relatives** - the Bonobo monkey - loves sex. They really do love it. They use it as a kind of group therapy.

Cylons, like the Bonobos, haven't had millenia of "society" to shape their thinking, so just get down n dirty.

* At least here in Blighty where countless studies show a curve; smart educated people are far less religious than "less intelligent" folk.

** If you believe in Darwin et al vs The Church.

Garbo
May 16th, 2008, 09:10 AM
Sex can be a part of therapy (wait, what?); well I think it can. However, I don't think that comparing our instincts to other animals (I don't want to say less evolved because I'm pretty damn convinced my horse is more highly evolved than most people I meet) is degrading simply because we are driven by sex AND also a desire for intimacy. Animals crave intimacy as well and it's not always sexual; many times they crave it with us. Why do they call a dog man's best friend a horse a girl's best friend? They desire a relationship with us as much as we desire a relationship with them. They know our language must better than we know theirs and if we are intelligent enough to take our time we can learn theirs and gain a very strong bond with them. It's all about being selfless, which in the act of sex or intimacy of any sort, if you are selfless you will find you gain more (okay, now I'm getting all philosophical)
(And bashing religion or any belief system is never cool) If you want I can you some religious poems where sex is merely sex and nothing more. Please understand though that I'm not trying to start anything, but I have many friends who are religious and incredibly intelligent (actually man of them are well respected professors).

Anyhow, that was long and boring and totally not BSG related. However, it's an interesting topic that we used to swing around back when I was a Philosophy major (thankfully I got smart and saw more hope with studying John Donne; hahaha!). The little bit of a sex drive I have is fueled toward academia. Yeah, I'm one of those nut jobs your parents warned you about.

I have yet to re-watch "Faith" because a. I've been too busy (frak I've only ridden my horse once this week; I usually ride at least four times a week) and b. it's such an emotional episode (shoot Natalie killing Six, Emily dying, and Roslin on the verge- cheese!).

One question:

Admiral Atheist (I <3 that name) seems to be coming around to the dark side of believing in something other than nothing. It's not religious, but we are seeing him soften up and this makes me think back to Starbuck calling him Roslin's wetnurse (which I don't think he is, but still). Laura herself is starting to re-think some things and since Bill is becoming more attached to her, do you guys think that the change in thoughts are simply because of his emotional involvement with her? Do you guys think that there could be a drastic change in his belief system at the end and he winds up becoming religious on account of her (especially if she dies and turns out to be the dying leader)? Would this make you like him less?

I hope we get more Bill in the next episode (seems like we do). He's definitely one of the best characters on the show.

And yes I worry about Kara's mental state and I wonder what this is leading us to. Any thoughts?

Hart
May 16th, 2008, 12:53 PM
Hey, I agree with everyone about the meaning of the hybrid's vocal spew, but to nitpick: if the 3 is D'Anna, then, for consistency's sake, shouldn't the 5 be Aaron Doral?; if the 5 are Tyrol, Tigh, Tory, Sam and ?, then shouldn't the 3 be three different characters and not the literal #3? I know it's a mystical mumbo-jumbo new-agey prophecy, but still ... just sayin'.

The Shakespeare thing bothers me. If it's not significant in a "we're near Earth" way, then that'll be disastrous because it'll destroy the show for me (well, a little). If it is significant, then it kinda seems a bit hokey. Why and how would Baltar be quoting Shakespeare? I can't find a reasonable excuse and I'm afraid it'll be left unaddressed which will drive me mad. If it's a subtle additional hint that cultures have clashed and the RTF/Cylons are living in a mish-mash of many, many different time periods' cultures, that might work. They oughta drop in a Xenu allusion - that'd be wacky, no?

I don't think it was Jupiter, but I don't get why people rule it out because of the timing. If it is, presumably they are close to Earth, though we are almost half way done with the last season. Why would finding Earth stop the story dead in its tracks? Does it not seem sensible that there might be quite a bit of storytelling needed (and wanted) to finish the show? Half a season doesn't seem like much to fill when finalizing the stories and themes of this show.

I agree it's way too obvious for Roslin to be the "dying leader." Could be, but I'm betting on a curve ball.

P.S. Please let Baltar die within the next three episodes.

OK, I don't really mean that. BUt I'd be OK with a really grave sickness where he couldn't talk.

MarshAngel
May 16th, 2008, 02:54 PM
The Shakespeare thing bothers me. If it's not significant in a "we're near Earth" way, then that'll be disastrous because it'll destroy the show for me (well, a little). If it is significant, then it kinda seems a bit hokey. Why and how would Baltar be quoting Shakespeare?

I think you may be overthinking this. There are probably as many Shakespeare quotes as there are biblical ones in TV scripts. From a writer's perspective, it may just be a tribute to a great writer, something that sounds good and was used to indicate wisdom in the speaker. Of course I could be entirely wrong but it's so much simpler to take it at face value until proven otherwise.

AeronPrometheus
May 16th, 2008, 03:47 PM
Simply put, you are looking at reality through atheistic glasses.

I am not, because I am not an atheist.

The reason you disagree is not because I am wrong. Rather, because your assumptions don't allow for anything more than a purposeless physical reality.

Nor am I, if you believe that when you "go to heaven" you'll be banging angels in the clouds that's one thing. But if you don't then sex really IS a physical property to life and shouldn't be regarded as something that it's not. Namely spiritual.

I'm a very spiritual person and you're not even in the same city as the ball park if you think I think life is "purposeless". And after all you said, none of it had anything to do with my response.

I don't think discussing it any further will help, looking at how you carry yourself in a debate shows me that you'll never allow for anything that disagrees with what you already hold as fact, regardless whether or not it is.

P.S.

I don't consider this off topic, in fact it's as much on topic as anything else. The purpose of a discussion board, more precisely for a TV episode, is to discuss it at the plot points and the emotions and the revelations, etc. of that episode. Flourishing the sexuality of the show, which is a staple element of Battlestar Galactica, and taking the discussion into how people feel personally about it is a damn fine example of what this forum exists for. Now if the discussion spirals into a flame war that's another thing entirely, at which point I will have no part in it.

Hart
May 17th, 2008, 06:38 PM
I think you may be overthinking this. There are probably as many Shakespeare quotes as there are biblical ones in TV scripts. From a writer's perspective, it may just be a tribute to a great writer, something that sounds good and was used to indicate wisdom in the speaker. Of course I could be entirely wrong but it's so much simpler to take it at face value until proven otherwise.

Totally disagree. If you're a hotshot writer writing a sci-fi show that takes place in a different world from ours and you include Shakespearean quotes, in my book, you're not doing your job at all. You call it overthinking. I call it incredibly lazy-assed writing. It totally cheapens the genre as well as the setting of the show - which we know in sci-fi is often the essence. (BG=West Wing in space, anyone?) Don't set a show in another time and/or other space if you require Shakespeare. Set it in freakin' present-day England or America or whatever. At the least, adapt the gist of the quote and attribute it to a scribe from the culture you're dealing with. At the least!

Now, of course, part of the intrigue of BG is that it's a slightly different deal in that there is an intrinsic connection to the culture and history of Earth. To me, this is all the more reason why the writers should be careful about Earthly allusions.

If "All Along The Watchtower" and Shakespeare have no in-show significance and were put there simply because the writer(s) liked it or felt it was appropriate regardless of the lack of context, quite a few notches are lost in my book in terms of BG's greatness. I can't imagine this is the case ... though it's certainly possible. I'd much rather there be a way within the BG world that makes it make sense.

omgpix
May 17th, 2008, 07:04 PM
Getting Off-topic:
If you wish to degrade humanity to the state of 'nothing more than an animal', that is your prerogative.

There is no degrading, biologically speaking we're classified as animals. Rather than him degrading I think it's a case of you elevating.



The reason you disagree is not because I am wrong. Rather, because your assumptions don't allow for anything more than a purposeless physical reality.

It doesn't make you right either. IMO, considering people aren't born believing in Allah, Buddha, Jesus, etc. it seems they're the ones making the assumptions, a physical view of reality is the default for modern man.

There is nothing inherently special about sex. If there is any significance, it is attached to it by the people doing the deed. Do you think pornstars view getting it on in front of a camera as spiritual?

btw, many religions share this view of sex, I know for instance, Buddhism does not regard it as anything special.

Cinapolada
May 18th, 2008, 06:09 AM
That was my understanding of the "The 3 will give you the 5." The Model 3 is the D'Anna's! So i'm assuming they might eventually unbox her Line possibly to find the Final 5.

Could the "missing three" actually be the three missing models no longer on that baseship? Cavil, Doral, and Simon.

Skydiver
May 18th, 2008, 07:35 AM
the show is going by the interpretation that 'three will give you five' that they need to unbox deanna so she can tell them who the five are, so they can identify them and get the five to tell them where earth is

pristinaheather
May 21st, 2008, 04:23 PM
Six: "Have you ever had sex five-way on a bridge during a lightening storm with a jumbo pack of beef franks and strawberry ice cream?"

"No..."

Six: "Let's try it!"

^_^

hilarious.

daniel9
May 24th, 2008, 02:28 AM
podcast is up and no it wont be any better when its officially up
http://media.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/408/bsg_ep408_FULL.mp3

Trek_Girl42
May 24th, 2008, 10:37 AM
podcast is up and no it wont be any better when its officially up
http://media.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/mp3/408/bsg_ep408_FULL.mp3
Thank you! How did you get this link if it's not "officially" up?

Edit: wow the audio sucks on this one. :S

MarshAngel
May 24th, 2008, 02:40 PM
If "All Along The Watchtower" and Shakespeare have no in-show significance and were put there simply because the writer(s) liked it or felt it was appropriate regardless of the lack of context, quite a few notches are lost in my book in terms of BG's greatness. I can't imagine this is the case ... though it's certainly possible. I'd much rather there be a way within the BG world that makes it make sense.

I think you must admit that this is not a universal interpretation of what the show is or should be, but more likely what your ideal is. I'm not locked into the idea that everything must be meaningful and the writers may not be either. I don't think Shakespeare or All along the Watchtower needs to have Earth-relative meaning. It doesn't bother me if it does or not because the show must still be watchable and meaningful to people not looking for clues. For me, including those details is similar to the use of contemporary music in A Knight's Tale or ' Moulin Rouge . It could just as easily be a stylistic choice not a plot point and I respect that choice. It doesn't do much to alter my view of the show because I don't think those choices add much to the show even if they are relevant to the plot.

daniel9
May 24th, 2008, 07:16 PM
Thank you! How did you get this link if it's not "officially" up?

Edit: wow the audio sucks on this one. :S

lol just by manually go up a number from the last ep's podcast. they used to have podcasts up early all the time throughout season3 before it officially was up

Trek_Girl42
May 24th, 2008, 11:32 PM
lol just by manually go up a number from the last ep's podcast. they used to have podcasts up early all the time throughout season3 before it officially was upIn the website address? Sweet. :D

rarocks24
November 7th, 2008, 09:28 AM
So I rewatched Faith yesterday, and I noticed something. It was small, but very interesting.

Faith was really a followup episode for Anders. It was his coming to terms with what he was. Sure, there was the whole hand in the water thing he was going to try and do... and good lord knows what would've happened if he had. What I found interesting was the whole scene after Barolay was killed. Now I've said before that I don't believe the Final Five can harm each other, and that could be related to:

Warning for potential spoiler
If its true that the Cylons on Earth had it out, they may have programmed themselves never to harm each other.

But what was more interesting, was how he handled the whole situation. At first, he "wanted" to kill her, and was most likely programmed not to. Later though, he reacts verbally to the Six's claims of Barolay's sadism. The interesting thing here to point out is, he was the enabler for Barolay's sadistic tendencies. He was partially responsible of that Six's pain. Had he not suggested that they make their deaths (Cylons) as miserable as possible, that Six would not have attacked Barolay, and Barolay would still be alive. Moreso, that Six would not have drowned in the septic tank.

It was his coming to terms with what he was. And may have explained the later event on the baseship, with the Eights. He was seeking redemption. Which leads me to believe that Anders is perhaps the single most perfect cylon among the twelve.

SoulReaver
April 28th, 2009, 08:40 AM
ok some1 explain why the hell the centurion opened fire on the 8 who was about to unplug the hybrid :tealcanime49:

sure the centurions now have free will but it's not like the 8 was trying to kill the hybrid
(and even if she did try to kill her, does this mean the centurions value the hybrids above the other models ?)


in fact this doesn't even make sense - this is a "cylon vs cylon" thing, why would a centurion intervene ? (especially intervene using lethal force)

rarocks24
June 13th, 2009, 02:01 PM
ok some1 explain why the hell the centurion opened fire on the 8 who was about to unplug the hybrid :tealcanime49:

sure the centurions now have free will but it's not like the 8 was trying to kill the hybrid
(and even if she did try to kill her, does this mean the centurions value the hybrids above the other models ?)


in fact this doesn't even make sense - this is a "cylon vs cylon" thing, why would a centurion intervene ? (especially intervene using lethal force)
They saw the hybrid as equal. They killed the eight because she was attacking the hybrid. Sort of like shooting a rapist attacking some woman.