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GateWorld
April 10th, 2008, 01:28 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/4051.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">BATTLESTAR GALACTICA SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">THE ROAD LESS TRAVELLED</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 405</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
Tensions mount on board the Demetrius when Kara picks up Leoben adrift in a damaged Cylon ship, adding to the crew's distrust of her. Tyrol investigates Baltar's growing cult.

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somedude
May 2nd, 2008, 07:20 PM
How dare they kill off Gunny Matthias. They should've just killed off that pistol-whipped Viper pilot dude instead.

nckzvnbr
May 2nd, 2008, 07:22 PM
The whole Tyrol and Baltar thing was just too strange for me, doesn't make sense in light of their characters. I wonder if Tory will confess to Baltar that she killed Cally. I do not understand Baltar's interest in Tyrol unless it was the result of Tory's manipulations. The way "Gonzo" went down I thought Helo had taken him out for good.

daniel9
May 2nd, 2008, 07:46 PM
i cant believe they ended it with a dang blasted mutiny! what a waste. they couldve jumped and been on the basestar and ended it with that. but noooooooo we have another waste of time mutiny on our hands. and now one really has to wonder if the chief really did hear baltar's speech last week at the end of the ep, since we know its being broadcasted. so i guess baltar is going to be helping the chief get over his loss? hm 2 of the final five are now in baltar's religion. i wonder how tigh will get dragged in?

Major Fischer
May 2nd, 2008, 08:08 PM
Review written as the episode aired...

- I'm not a huge fan of Starbuck so I'm not terribly looking forward to this episode. I've seen a lot of fans saying how we are being shown how Roslin was never the dying leader/prophet to begin with (espeically in the camps who didn't like the character to start with), but I have to wonder why those same fans don't face the fact that we're being shown as much doubt in Starbuck as we are in Laura.

- I have hesitated to say this for the last few episodes, but I find the Baltar plot massively offensive. I have never found the monotheistic one god plot to be so from the cylons, but within the context of Baltar with so many pointed references to Jesus Christ I find this particular plot thread to be blasphamous. BSG often makes political points I am uncomfortable with, but if they do not stop equating Gaius Baltar to the son of God I will seriously come away from the series with a very nasty after taste. Hollywood is at its worst when it assumes that their audience doesn't take faith seriously. I am their audience. I take faith seriously, and using the villin-oversexed-comic relief as a representation of one of the world's major religions is taking things too far. I am a hard core fan and MY patience is growing very thin with this RDM.

- "How does she go from antidepresents to suicide?" Obvious the Chief knows nothing about antidepresents. They often give people just enough energy to carry through on their plans before they are well enough to get better.

- Tory is creepy. Is this going to be the road of redemption for the sinner after all?

- Is Anders growing a backbone? Maybe he borrowed Helo's since Helo seems to have lost his. An XO's job is not just to follow orders, it's to judge if the captain has gone over the bend and put other's lives in danger. Kara has now demonstrated that she is a threat to the lives of everyone on that ship and she needs to be relieved of command.

- Sharon has a better understanding of cylons than anyone on that ship, Helo should listen to his cylon wife.

- "If there is a god he's laughing his ass off."

- Oh no, they killed Mathias! *******s!

- I wonder if the final four have anti-suicide programming. This isn't the first time he's not carried through when he clearly had intent.

- Oh yes Starbuck, you are leadership material.

- This is not reasonable for Helo to be taking this position. He's not this dumb. He is loyal to a fault, but he is also a moral pillar in the show and I do not believe he would injure a crewman who was voicing legitimate and reasonable doubts. We already know that within the context of this world it is a military officer's duty not to obey an illegal order and Starbuck has now exceeded her orders from Adama, gotten someone killed, and is now threatening to condemn them all to being lost in space on a sewage scawl. It is not a mutiny to relieve a clearly mentally impared commander.

- Just because a man reforms does not mean that he may be the savior of other men's souls. At least they had him apologize for the presumption, but that doesn't change the fact that Baltar is still arrogant and smarmy and is not the mouth that salvation should be heard.

viper27
May 2nd, 2008, 08:11 PM
you make a good point of how two of the finale five are in baltars camp, and how tigh will end up there too. i could possiably see him following baltar but then again its not tigh, but then hes been acting not the same since hes been visiting six. the munity i thought was a good point to end the ep, makes you wonder how she'll get out of all the mess, and what the crew will do. this weeks ep just set more stuff up, and it was good, but i just enjoyed last weeks more then this weeks, but know next week will be one of this seasons best looking from the preview.

hoof
May 2nd, 2008, 08:44 PM
- I have hesitated to say this for the last few episodes, but I find the Baltar plot massively offensive. I have never found the monotheistic one god plot to be so from the cylons, but within the context of Baltar with so many pointed references to Jesus Christ I find this particular plot thread to be blasphamous. BSG often makes political points I am uncomfortable with, but if they do not stop equating Gaius Baltar to the son of God I will seriously come away from the series with a very nasty after taste. Hollywood is at its worst when it assumes that their audience doesn't take faith seriously. I am their audience. I take faith seriously, and using the villin-oversexed-comic relief as a representation of one of the world's major religions is taking things too far. I am a hard core fan and MY patience is growing very thin with this RDM.


While I personally dislike the Baltar-turned-religious-figure plot, I'm not so sure that RDM is trying to equate Baltar with Jesus. He's actually closer to Muhammad, since Baltar is more of a prophet than any son of a diety. What I find fascinating (and I think the point RDM is making) is that people assume he's a Jesus allegory. But, just like the suicide bombing on New Caprica wasn't intended to be based on either Iraq or the French suicide bombings of WW2, I don't think RDM is trying to portray Baltar as Jesus.

What I think RDM is trying to show is Baltar becoming a religious figurehead. That is a theme you see many times in many religions. The closest allegory I can think of, as I said earlier, is Muhammed. For various reasons, Baltar sees himself, despite every attempt to convince himself as otherwise, as the spokeman of a God. In that sense, I think he's hit it right on the mark.

But I see again and again that people assume that RDM is doing a Jesus thing with Baltar. What is it about the portrayal that evokes such a reaction? Why is it specifically Jesus, and not a generic prophet? And if RDM isn't trying to do a Jesus with Baltar, what's the basis for being upset with him?

That said, I'm not a big fan of the religious aspect of BSG. While I understand its central role in human life, and thus it really does have a place in the BSG universe (since RDM is holding a mirror to ourselves with much of his BSG work), I'd rather not focus on that. I'd rather see the other aspects of the BSG universe, the story, the characters, etc. Unfortunately (for me), RDM has chosen to make religion a part of the BSG story. And, as I can see, it causes hot-button reactions, just like the suicide bombings, and the occupation theme at the beggining of season 2 (where many people were convinced it was a statement on Iraq and the US leadership).

kharn the betrayer
May 2nd, 2008, 09:02 PM
While I personally dislike the Baltar-turned-religious-figure plot, I'm not so sure that RDM is trying to equate Baltar with Jesus. He's actually closer to Muhammad, since Baltar is more of a prophet than any son of a diety. What I find fascinating (and I think the point RDM is making) is that people assume he's a Jesus allegory. But, just like the suicide bombing on New Caprica wasn't intended to be based on either Iraq or the French suicide bombings of WW2, I don't think RDM is trying to portray Baltar as Jesus.

because atleast when he has the beard he bore a striking resemblance toward Jesus..

although his coat gave me Joseph and the Technicolour dream coat vibes this week for some reason

Im more interested in Tyrol and Leoban... Iv always liked Galen and honestly his whole plotline this season is quite depressing and Im really hoping he gets his act together because there is only so much angst I can take

and Leoban... well Iv always found him amongst the most interesting characters in the series and his relation ship with Starbuck is just interesting to me I really wonder whats going to happen with him and how the feth he knows so much crap about her and her destiny

DigiFluid
May 2nd, 2008, 10:05 PM
- I have hesitated to say this for the last few episodes, but I find the Baltar plot massively offensive. I have never found the monotheistic one god plot to be so from the cylons, but within the context of Baltar with so many pointed references to Jesus Christ I find this particular plot thread to be blasphamous. BSG often makes political points I am uncomfortable with, but if they do not stop equating Gaius Baltar to the son of God I will seriously come away from the series with a very nasty after taste. Hollywood is at its worst when it assumes that their audience doesn't take faith seriously. I am their audience. I take faith seriously, and using the villin-oversexed-comic relief as a representation of one of the world's major religions is taking things too far. I am a hard core fan and MY patience is growing very thin with this RDM

[mod snip]

I disagree entirely that they expect their audience not to take faith seriously. Entirely the opposite, I think. I think that they're writing to an audience assumed not to be bogged down by dogma and the closemindedness that the quoted paragraph seems (emphasis there, seems, I'll be happy to be wrong) to be expressing.

Besides that they've never even hinted at the idea of Baltar as being the son of god, not once to my recollection. He's preaching and spreading the word, which seems entirely more akin to figures like Abraham, Moses, Jesus (in Islamic tradition), or Muhammad. In other words, prophets, not divine saviours.

Just because he happened to have a beard and fit into medieval and post-medieval Western European imagery of 'white man with long hair and beard' doesn't make him a Jesus figure. His beard started in Cylon captivity, continued through his trial, and was shaved off when the religious business started.

Comments on them supposedly associating Baltar with Jesus are far more telling about the poster than they are about the show's writing.

Trek_Girl42
May 2nd, 2008, 10:08 PM
I can't believe they killed Sergent Mattias! She was awesome! :(

But Leoben was back this week! About time. I want to see this whole special destiny plot play out. :D

Night Marshal
May 2nd, 2008, 10:39 PM
Does anyone else get the feeling that this is two parter not called a two parter. The We end at what feels like act 3 of a five act play we are JUST starting to get to the high point of the drama and boom come back next week.

As set up goes this was boring and they have done a much better job of it in the past. But will wait for the Pay off before I give full judgment.

A few thoughts Athena seems way under used in this episode. She spent years living with the Cylons before joining the Fleet she still knows more about them than anyone and she had all of 5 lines. I would have expected her to play a much more active role. Rather than just pulling on Halos shirt tail whispering to him from time to time.

I think it also interesting that of the four new cylons that the least developed character before the revel is now the one thats the most cylon I guess it takes a while over write 3 year of character development...oh wait almost everything likable about the chief is almost gone already I guess it doesn't take that long. This is quickly becoming Battlestar Cylon. And while I liked it at first the final four are just dragging this show down now.


Additional: for being all "ballazy and willing to do anything" we sure are seeing a lot secondary characters die. I guess this is how the show will end no one overly important dying each week. but they don't kill red shirts....

Chev's Ron
May 2nd, 2008, 11:09 PM
Of all the episodes that I have watched, this one seems the most realistic, and actually boring one. I wouldn't think it as bad if the one before it was aired with this one as a two-parter, but waiting a week to see this is kinda dull.

Anyway, enough with the complaints.

Kara finally showed some of her humanity and military background when she punched Leoben for the death of her subordinate. This reminds me that Kara is still human... or at least the pre-viper-incident kara.

-----
Baltar and Tory... Well the love of Sex can cause strange alliances... and bedfellows. It isn't that suprising for me to believe that Tory will side with this anti-christ based figure. I do believe that Baltar is intended to be portrayed more as a religious figurehead somewhere between Islam and the traditional vision of an Anti-Christ.

As always, As a Messianic Jew I use the science and "fake-religions" of the Series and compare it to my own. I actually like the occasional questioning of a God's existence or something like that. I can look at the RL questions poised by the series and give them serious thought. At any-rate this series hasn't convinced me that there isn't the God whom I and Christianity believe in. Well anyway. This isn't a religion board. Back to my Battlestar.
----------------
Anders... You really love your wife don't you..? That man... Achem... Cylon... Is ready to support his wife to her bitter end. The previews for the next episode really make me wonder by his actions if his "programming" activated.

Kara, I don't really know what to make of you, just that I believe you are the same girl... at least physically. Mentally... (Did Anders shoot Geta to protect you because he is programmed to protect the final five?)

Now as for Tyrol, He had better shapen up. Going from a mechanic who lost his wife... to a supporter of Baltar. (Out of the frying pan). I wonder why he didn't just resign his commission and go Lee Adama on his shipmates. If he is that worried about fracking up, he doesn't need to be near any heavy ordinance.:S

Darth_Bicyclist
May 2nd, 2008, 11:33 PM
- I have hesitated to say this for the last few episodes, but I find the Baltar plot massively offensive. I have never found the monotheistic one god plot to be so from the cylons, but within the context of Baltar with so many pointed references to Jesus Christ I find this particular plot thread to be blasphamous. BSG often makes political points I am uncomfortable with, but if they do not stop equating Gaius Baltar to the son of God I will seriously come away from the series with a very nasty after taste. Hollywood is at its worst when it assumes that their audience doesn't take faith seriously. I am their audience. I take faith seriously, and using the villin-oversexed-comic relief as a representation of one of the world's major religions is taking things too far. I am a hard core fan and MY patience is growing very thin with this RDM.

Well, here's an interview with RDM himself discussing this very topic:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/166/story_16650_1.html

From reading this, I get the impression that he does indeed take the religious aspects of the show, and the faith of its fans, very seriously, although perhaps not as seriously as you do.

DB

daniel9
May 2nd, 2008, 11:41 PM
tyrol seems like the apostle paul. if one equates baltar to being jesus. hm who does tory seem like of the disciples? and who would tigh be? anders definitely would easily fall into being part of the baltar religion

Wayston
May 3rd, 2008, 01:17 AM
A few thoughts Athena seems way under used in this episode. She spent years living with the Cylons before joining the Fleet she still knows more about them than anyone and she had all of 5 lines. I would have expected her to play a much more active role. Rather than just pulling on Halos shirt tail whispering to him from time to time.


I had a similar thought when I was watching the episode but then I felt it makes sense. There'll always be a sense of suspicion around here when it comes to her loyalty between the humans and the cylons so she deliberatly chose not to impose her on the whole situation. There are some scenes where she is quite prominently in the picture as if she's going to do something without anything really happening with her character, which gave me the impression that her character genuinly considered intervening at times but decided against it. Which was undoubtedly the smartest move considering how touchy everyone is with the cylons.

Night Marshal
May 3rd, 2008, 01:35 AM
I had a similar thought when I was watching the episode but then I felt it makes sense. There'll always be a sense of suspicion around here when it comes to her loyalty between the humans and the cylons so she deliberately chose not to impose her on the whole situation. There are some scenes where she is quite prominently in the picture as if she's going to do something without anything really happening with her character, which gave me the impression that her character genuinely considered intervening at times but decided against it. Which was undoubtedly the smartest move considering how touchy everyone is with the cylons.

you make a fair point, but I guess I just don't know why she is there is she isn't there to guild Starbuck and to help with these kinds of things. When she was on Kolbal Athena talked quite a bit about how the cylons understood The history of the gods better than the Humans did. If her goal are the same as the fleets then it her responsibility to speak up and let her voice be heard. She has proven her loyalty otherwise she wouldn't be there.

huntress
May 3rd, 2008, 01:46 AM
This episode reminded me a bit of lat weeks Doctor Who, which was also a two parter and while not bad it wasn't up to the previous two episodes. This episode of BSG was unfortunately rather dull. Very little really happen in this season and while some of the plot lines are good, I can't say that I am sitting on the edge of my seat as with the previous three seasons. The problem with this weeks was probably also that it was mainly about Starbuck and her floating trashcan and I am so not interested in her. I did like the scene between Kara and Leoben though because it is such a frakked up relationship (or whatever is going on between them). Leoben is still one of the most fascinating Cylons. Athena was criminally underused in this episode. She is the one with the best understanding when it comes to Cylons, she lived most of her life with them before she turned her back on them, yet all she does in this episode is whisper to her husband about what she thinks about all this but it is fascinating to see that she stands up for the principles of the fleet and is the one who basically tells Helo that he has to do something regrading Kara. The whole Galen and Balthar thing is just weird because there has never been any real contact between the two. Balthar now suddenly being interested in Tyrol is something that I have some trouble buying. We will see how next weeks episode is but this weeks was a bit of a disappointment.

Dusk
May 3rd, 2008, 01:58 AM
Ugh...! Where the frak is this going? I have found the show incredibly drab and monotonous these past few eps. Now it really does look like the writers are making this shiit up as they go. If I hear Baltar's preachy sermons one more time I might just scream. Bonus points to Tyrol for having a squeeze at Baltar's slimy neck, points revoked and pushed into the negative for Tyrol's bonding session with the pyjama priest at the end.

I thought that, because this was the final season, we were going to have thick and fast plots and continuous edge of your seat moments through all 20 eps. If we get one more episode like this, then that is going right out the window. Oh and look at the title of next week's installment... "Faith".

:mckay:

Joben
May 3rd, 2008, 02:20 AM
The episode was ok, but when I saw there was 5 minutes left I realised that nothing had really happened. I like character development episodes, even if they're often used as a budget saver in the middle of a season by cutting down on the SFX and leaving out a few characters (I don't think I saw the Adamas, the President or Number 6 at all). This one though seemed like about 60% filler - The roundabout Baltar/Tyrol thing, It wouldn't have been a huge difference if Tyrol had taken his hand in that first scene rather than needing the whole episode to end up there anyway. Nothing really new was gleaned out of the Leoben relationship nor the Demetrius crew subplot, until the end of course. I'd thought we'd at least be able to see part of the basestar plot.

Since it's the last season I keep expecting to see a secondary character die in every scene since they have a free hand. Unfortunately it finally panned out in this episode :( I was half expecting to see Starbuck pull an Admiral Cain on Helo at the end.

Major Fischer
May 3rd, 2008, 03:31 AM
The closest allegory I can think of, as I said earlier, is Muhammed.

That would be equally offensive as it would be an insult to the image of the prophet and I do believe we have all seen in the news that is not taken lightly either. Any even cursory study of the history of Islam would show you that Baltar's role isn't the role of Muhammed either. Muhammed was a wise virtuous man who wasn't using his followers for sex.

As for why people draw the Christian parallel... it's because we're supposed to. The publicity for the show describes the cleansing of the temple as the expelling of the money changers. If you seriously believe that the New Caprica plot was not inteaded to be read as Iraq I have a bridge in Brocklyn to sell you.

Pharaoh Atem
May 3rd, 2008, 03:44 AM
great ep. first ep this season that felt like the old days

now the baseship story line ....this season is getting good now :D

Agent_Dark
May 3rd, 2008, 04:15 AM
That would be equally offensive as it would be an insult to the image of the prophet and I do believe we have all seen in the news that is not taken lightly either. Any even cursory study of the history of Islam would show you that Baltar's role isn't the role of Muhammed either. Muhammed was a wise virtuous man who wasn't using his followers for sex.

As for why people draw the Christian parallel... it's because we're supposed to. The publicity for the show describes the cleansing of the temple as the expelling of the money changers. If you seriously believe that the New Caprica plot was not inteaded to be read as Iraq I have a bridge in Brocklyn to sell you.

Or maybe you're just drawing lines where there shouldn't be any. Maybe you've been goaded into drawing a comparison because you're limited to your own experiences, latched onto a few commonalities and just filled in the rest to suit yourself. Maybe that's the actual message the show is sending.

I mean, come on - why the hell would someone bother trying to make a Real Life political/religious point in a sci-fi show that airs on a small-fry cable tv station. Perhaps people should stop trying to find some big real-life Religious/Political meaning in this fictional show and instead ask yourself why you are doing that. That's what BSG is doing.

P-90_177
May 3rd, 2008, 04:34 AM
Damn this was a fantastic ep. A HUGE improvement on last week.

Ok first of all I am fascinated by what's going on on board the demetrius. I mean it's obvious that kara just wants to do what is right. Yeah she's got this compulsion to find earth that she doesn't quite understand but she's also doing it for the old man and the rest of the fleet. Helo mean while is trying to be loyal to his friend and I'm sure that moment when he releived her of command was the worst thing he'd done in a good long while. I also love the whooping he gave gonzo. People may think that's out of character but I disagree. Remember it was only when Gonzo claimed she was a cylon when helo knocked him down. He was being loyal to his friend and making sure no one else would follow into mutiny.

Meanwhile on Galactica I'm also loving this whole thing with Baltar. In a strange way you have to feel good for him and even I as a viewer is taken in by his sermons. I'm beginning to wonder if this is actually a good thing for the fleet and that. The speech he gave tyrol was also very touching. And of course I feel very sorry for tyrol. Despite what he said last week it seems like he did really love cally. Looks like all he really has to live for is Nikki. Poor guy.

peragrin
May 3rd, 2008, 05:22 AM
I found this episode to be boring. Though I didn't think anyone other than Tyrol actually acted out of character.

Helo defended the cylon loving &&&&& with a pistol whip. The camera angle switching to his wife looking on was good. As the guy apparently forgot that Athena is a Cylon. Helo also offered starbuck a reasonable compromise. Go back to the fleet resupply and then find the basestar.

Starbuck acted like her self a bit, and so did Leoboan. both of them did brought this episode out.

Baltar. I just want him to die. His words not only mean nothing they are contradicted by his own harem. Baltar is closer to Zeus the raper of women(his own words) than any other god. I just wish someone else would point that out. I can even see him heading for tyrol for support. As for the Actor he is fantastic He is playing that role very well.

Galen really needs to stop and think about what he is doing. At the rate he is going when he learns that Tory killed Cally he will be like good job have a cookie, and maybe a frack.

My only hope is that the Cylons have found the next marker but are afraid that it will be "trapped" like the last one. So they want the humans to examine it while they follow.

warmbeachbrat
May 3rd, 2008, 07:13 AM
[snip]


Or maybe you're just drawing lines where there shouldn't be any. Maybe you've been goaded into drawing a comparison because you're limited to your own experiences, latched onto a few commonalities and just filled in the rest to suit yourself. Maybe that's the actual message the show is sending.

I mean, come on - why the hell would someone bother trying to make a Real Life political/religious point in a sci-fi show that airs on a small-fry cable tv station. Perhaps people should stop trying to find some big real-life Religious/Political meaning in this fictional show and instead ask yourself why you are doing that. That's what BSG is doing.

From the interview that Darth_Bicyclist linked to:



Question: The show is paralleling today's political climate and reflecting world events...

RDM: Absolutely. The show is really supposed to be about our society and political structure, the conversations we have today in the culture. Hopefully, the show is able to examine those things from a different perspective without making it as simple as the Cylons are Al Qaeda and Laura Roslin (the President) is George Bush. I don't think the show offers you easy answers on why Al Qaeda does what Al Qaeda does, but I think it gives you an easy reference into how an entire culture, or entire group of people can believe something so fervently that seems so unfathomable at the beginning.

Evidently, the parallels that you pooh-pooh are there intentionally, even if they are not exact or direct.

I thought this was a thread to discuss the episode. I don't think it's necessary to denigrate other people when they choose to discuss aspects of the show that you would rather not discuss or that you think are silly. There's plenty to talk about--not everyone is going to be interested in every detail, but others are.


Anyway, I was totally bored by the episode. I am incredibly tired of Starbuck's angst and Baltar's smarminess. I'm not all that surprised by Tyrol's actions. He's got to be dealing with all kinds of emotions--grief, guilt, suspicion, anger. Am I the only one to find Torry's actions to be more and more disturbing?

I suppose the good thing about BSG right now is that I have no idea where they're going with it. :rolleyes:

ToasterOnFire
May 3rd, 2008, 07:14 AM
I thought this was the most disappointing ep of the season so far, unfortunately. Maybe it was the predictability of everything. Starbuck is nuts, Leoben is mysterious, someone dies, the crew mutinies, Baltar continues to spout his nonsense to his moon-eyed followers. Blah blah blah. And it never really built up to anything either.

One of the things I didn't expect was how Tyrol apparently turned to Baltar's side. While BSG is known for it's unexpected turns, I had a hard time understanding why Tyrol would do such a thing and why Baltar is so persuasive. Though I do find it interesting that the final four have been so malleable by certain people (Tory and now Tyrol by Baltar, Tigh by Six, Anders by Starbuck).

Thank the gods I didn't watch the skiffy preview, I hear it's spoilerific. O_o

huntress
May 3rd, 2008, 07:45 AM
Aaah a newbie. Welcome Joben :) Yeah the episode was indeed 60% filler and it certainly hasn't been the first episode like that. So far nothing really has happened in this season. The development is simply too slow and too laborous.

Night Marshal
May 3rd, 2008, 08:24 AM
Thank the gods I didn't watch the skiffy preview, I hear it's spoilerific. O_o

You got that Fracking right. We go from another high point cliff hanger(that no one believes but thats besides the point I just thank the gods that they didn't have that fracking drum, beating over everything for 3 whole minutes leading up to end of the episode{He That Believeth in Me} at least they found the volume switch this time).

But yeah you can bet that scene with the hybrid coming from the end of the next episode, and we also get to see how she get control back of the ship. That was terrible and also makes it look like they pushed all the drama into next week show just to have a bigger cliff hanger on this one.(which after a week from now isn't going to matter.)

Jumper_One
May 3rd, 2008, 12:46 PM
the beginning of the ep was pretty lame imo. I still don't care for Baltar's storyline, I mean what's he doing? nothing, just making sure his followers still believe in him. meh. his interaction with Tyrol was also strange. he took his hand, does he suddenly trust Baltar? woohoo mutiny on the Demetrius, that was cool. I wasn't sure if Helo would relieve Kara because he's generally pretty loyal. is Starbuck still following her instincts or is she becoming insane, obsessive? I guess we'll find out in the next ep. I also hope to see more of Lee, Roslin and Adama


Aaah a newbie. Welcome Joben :) Yeah the episode was indeed 60% filler and it certainly hasn't been the first episode like that. So far nothing really has happened in this season. The development is simply too slow and too laborous.

I agree, the last few eps seem to be a set up. I'm looing forward to part 2

Bruman
May 3rd, 2008, 12:56 PM
you make a good point of how two of the finale five are in baltars camp, and how tigh will end up there too. i could possiably see him following baltar but then again its not tigh, but then hes been acting not the same since hes been visiting six.

I seem to recall in one of the Eye of Jupiter episodes that Rosslyn mentioned something about the "five priests devoted to the one whose name cannot be...". And then she's interrupted by Adama Sr.. So, cannot be what? The most likely solution is the one whose name cannot be "said," since, if you could say it, it would be "devoted to [name]." Interestingly enough, there are parts of the Abrahamic traditions that point out that God's name should not be spoken, or even written, which is why some writers remove the vowel when writing G-d.

Tyrol mentions that the temple in the Eye of Jupiter looks like "the temple of the 5" and this is also where Diana sees "the final five" cylons. Add to this that the cylons are really the monotheist ones, and it suggests that there is a relationship between the five priests, earth, monetheism, and the final five cylons.

So all this together suggests that if Baltar is preaching monotheism and the Dylan four are part of the final five, it may not be surprising that they are somehow listening to Baltar's schpeel, even if they find it difficult to stomach it coming from that guy.

Detox
May 3rd, 2008, 01:29 PM
Does anyone else think that when the writers realized that this is going to be their last season, they just decided to go **** all and start pulling random crap out of their asses and throw it into the plot.

Honest, I really don't like this season, everything just seems so... so bad. Even the CGI looked terrible in comparison to earlier seasons.

Bruman
May 3rd, 2008, 02:43 PM
Does anyone else think that when the writers realized that this is going to be their last season, they just decided to go **** all and start pulling random crap out of their asses and throw it into the plot.

Honest, I really don't like this season, everything just seems so... so bad. Even the CGI looked terrible in comparison to earlier seasons.


This season isn't as satisfying as I hoped it would be, but it's still good.

I think they did decide that, since it's the last season, they could kill off a large number of major characters. You know they're going to eventually get to Earth, but you gotta wonder who's going to be left when they get there.

As for CGI, one of the things I liked about last week's ep (escape velocity), was just before Racetrack's raptor accident, when the raptor launched and followed a bunch of vipers, the vipers all turned around and suddenly went a different direction. It looked like a school of fish suddenly turning - it was a subtle effect, but I thought that was really neat.

Also, watching people walking in spacesuits in the landing bay was a new shot, kind of interesting.

MarshAngel
May 3rd, 2008, 02:56 PM
One of the things I didn't expect was how Tyrol apparently turned to Baltar's side. While BSG is known for it's unexpected turns, I had a hard time understanding why Tyrol would do such a thing and why Baltar is so persuasive. Though I do find it interesting that the final four have been so malleable by certain people (Tory and now Tyrol by Baltar, Tigh by Six, Anders by Starbuck).

Thank the gods I didn't watch the skiffy preview, I hear it's spoilerific. O_o

I think it has to do with the difficulties, loss, and sense of powerlessness of the past few years coming to a head. When it seems like loss just keeps growing without an end in sight, it starts to feel like the god/s you believe in are impotent so you have nothing to lose in trying something new... what are the old gods going to do to punish you? wipe out your home and family?

I think this is why Baltar is succeeding. And of course there's his message. No one has to feel guilty for not paying enough attention to someone they lost or for leaving someone behind. Even if you didn't believe strongly in anything, it's appealing, because someone is forgiving you for your screwups, and that probably feels pretty good.

I find it both ironic and somewhat appropriate that Baltar is the one leading this revolution. He gets to feel pretty good about being a jackass. No matter the mess he makes, God loves him. It's all good, all the time.

Arative
May 3rd, 2008, 03:01 PM
Bald Tyrol reminded me of that fat guy from Full Metal Jacket. He looks badass though.

As typical of 2 parters in BSG, the first one is all lead up to the big pay off of the 2nd part.

One thing that bugs me is why is Adama allowing all these civvies on the Galactica with Baltar? It seems he's gotten lax in security from the first season. Is it that they just don't have the ships to put them all on or what?

kharn the betrayer
May 3rd, 2008, 03:24 PM
Bald Tyrol reminded me of that fat guy from Full Metal Jacket. He looks badass though.

As typical of 2 parters in BSG, the first one is all lead up to the big pay off of the 2nd part.

One thing that bugs me is why is Adama allowing all these civvies on the Galactica with Baltar? It seems he's gotten lax in security from the first season. Is it that they just don't have the ships to put them all on or what?

I think its because of the lack of room on otherships

the Woman King kind of delt with this though its been a year since I watched it...

Jimmy_J
May 3rd, 2008, 04:13 PM
How dare they kill off Gunny Matthias. They should've just killed off that pistol-whipped Viper pilot dude instead.


I agree. I am tired of them killing off the great secondary characters that I love.

This season has just been annoying. All the episodes are proceeding at a snail's pace and the story arcs are pointless.

Jimmy_J
May 3rd, 2008, 04:15 PM
Does anyone else think that when the writers realized that this is going to be their last season, they just decided to go **** all and start pulling random crap out of their asses and throw it into the plot.



I agree. This season is just badly written.

Apollux
May 3rd, 2008, 04:37 PM
I´m actually preoccupied, this episode marks the middle of the road landmark for this year and I have yet to see a big question answered.

Agent_Dark
May 3rd, 2008, 05:21 PM
Evidently, the parallels that you pooh-pooh are there intentionally, even if they are not exact or direct.

I thought this was a thread to discuss the episode. I don't think it's necessary to denigrate other people when they choose to discuss aspects of the show that you would rather not discuss or that you think are silly. There's plenty to talk about--not everyone is going to be interested in every detail, but others are.

err, read the quote again. He specifically says Cylons != terrorists and Roslin != George Bush. There are no direct comparisons, rather a blank one that could be used to compare to alot of events in history. Everyone (Americans?) seems to be jumping aboard analogies to the War on Terror and Christianity because those dominate their culture. But believe it or not, there are plenty of other similiar events throughout history that could easily be applied as well and that rather nicely fits in with the show's theme of 'Everything has happened before and will happen again'

ArthurKing
May 3rd, 2008, 05:55 PM
It's becoming harder and harder to watch. Really. After 3+ seasons of following these characters, it is becoming painful to watch the 4th season progression.

I don't want to be misunderstood: I feel that I am watching ... very likely the finest show I've ever seen on television. I mean that authentically and sincerely. Nevertheless, it is literally painful to watch it at this point.

They are - with an almost surgical / manical precision - tearing apart characters that we've come to know and love. Dissecting them. Everyone looks ragged. Kara is on the brink. Tigh is a shell. Chief is suicidal. Baltar has gone into religious zealotry mode. Roslin is dying. Adama seems to be on the backburner in terms of being the 'Big Daddy of Command Greatness'. Lee is out of uniform. Mutiny is brewing. Galactica looks torn to hell.

I've never before felt this particular mixture of anticipation, pleasure, and utter pain surrounding a television show. This is television at its brutally finest. I love it for the visceral experience. And I hate Ron Moore for what he is doing.

Wow.

I will say - I don't believe ... it can't can it? can it? ... that this can last for the whole 4th season. There has to be some uplift somewhere. There will have to be a day when Adama unfurls his Lord Nelson sail of command once again, when Tigh stands tall next to his friend and oversees the deck, when Kara jumps into a viper and racks up another 10 kills, etc.

I think these things to myself. And then I think: you know what? The show has been this ballsy before. It may be this ballsy again. We may have seen the last of the roses. This may be another 16 episodes of beautiful terribleness. And then, it ends.

Just ... wow.

warmbeachbrat
May 3rd, 2008, 06:27 PM
err, read the quote again. He specifically says Cylons != terrorists and Roslin != George Bush. There are no direct comparisons, rather a blank one that could be used to compare to alot of events in history. Everyone (Americans?) seems to be jumping aboard analogies to the War on Terror and Christianity because those dominate their culture. But believe it or not, there are plenty of other similiar events throughout history that could easily be applied as well and that rather nicely fits in with the show's theme of 'Everything has happened before and will happen again'

*re-reads quote* Uh...


Question: The show is paralleling today's political climate and reflecting world events...

RDM: Absolutely. The show is really supposed to be about our society and political structure, the conversations we have today in the culture. Hopefully, the show is able to examine those things from a different perspective without making it as simple as the Cylons are Al Qaeda and Laura Roslin (the President) is George Bush.


*re-reads my post* Hmm...


Evidently, the parallels that you pooh-pooh are there intentionally, even if they are not exact or direct.


The point I was trying to make is that people DO see parallels between BSG and present day politics and religion. I've seen it over and over in news articles, opinion pieces, and reviews of the show. So it seems to me that should be fair game for discussion and not be dismissed out of hand. I'm a little bored with those discussions and tend to skip over them, but I understand why people talk about it.

Having said all that, I don't disagree with your point (QUOTE: "But believe it or not, there are plenty of other similiar events throughout history that could easily be applied as well and that rather nicely fits in with the show's theme of 'Everything has happened before and will happen again'"). There's an old saying that there is nothing new under the sun. Sometimes old sayings have a lot of wisdom to them. And, as you say, it adds another layer to the show's theme. I find it fascinating and wonder if TPTB did it on purpose....;)

TameFarrar
May 3rd, 2008, 07:43 PM
I am trying to determine just how I feel about the show so far. I know that they are doing build up rather than *stand alone* episodes this season, however the build up seems labor intensive with no real productivity to show for it.

I can't say I have liked this episode any better than I have the previous four. I think my first issue is that I am tired of being the only one (the audience) who knows who the Final Four are. I want some pay off happening already that others are finding out. Be it Cylon or Human. So far only the raiders have made it known the Final Five are *Among the Fleet* so I expected more from that this week.

I think I expected Leoben to make some sort of statement to Anders about it since he seems to have a better awareness then any of the other Cylons about the big picture and the whole Kara destiny thing.

I thought it was completely inappropriate for Anders to come into the Capt. Quarters and attack Leoben. Unless Kara has given him leave to act as man and wife regardless of the chain of command he was completely out of line. The crew seemed to placed a great deal of emphasis on the chain of command except for that moment so I take that as writer's license and a poor choice in using it.

The fact that Sharon made no comments, no statements or even talked to Leoben was a glaring error IMHO. She is the only *known* Cylon on board. She should have been talking to Leoben about everything. The fact that she was not being used in this manner was just very odd. When Adama needed conversation and opinions on the Cylons he never hesitated to talk to her. So why not now???
Helo not backing Kara after Adama chose him to be Kara's XO bummed me out completely. I believe Adama chose him because he felt Kara needed at least one person to stand behind her no matter what *just as he was doing with this mission* I feel this change up in attitude on Helo's part was an error. Since having Anders be the one to do it.... again brings a secondary character into the forefront in a way that annoys me. But I am bias at this point about secondary characters.

I was kind of annoyed at the Sci Fi *Ander's moment with the whole *Sam loves Kara so much that he is scared she will find out he is a cylon* I felt that was unneeded and possibly since I am so disgusted with the promotion of secondary characters it was more annoying then it should have been.

I am not a Baltar fan to begin with so having this episode focus more than half of its time on Baltar was a complete waste for me. I made a cake this time instead of just getting coffee :) The story line is redundant and boring IMHO and completely unbelievable.

The fact that once again we were subjected to watching Baltar have sex tells me this story line really hasn't changed much ....and having the Final Four slowly buy into the speeches...well... the stories have sucked so far.... so I actually expected it :)

I am just not really that impressed with the *Darker version* we are getting.

Sure it had a bit more action overall but did it really do much more than move a plodding plot along...nope not in my opinion :(

Corona
May 3rd, 2008, 07:44 PM
Of course viewers see parallels.

Who watches a show they can't relate to?

As far as religion, who's right? If there can only be one, then everyone else is wrong. Someone care to explain that one to me please?

Everybody is right or everybody is wrong.

This season is so boring we are just not inspired.

turtlesstartedit
May 3rd, 2008, 08:11 PM
It seems a lot of posters are less than enthused about this season so far. I hate to pile on, but I have to agree. Did they fire the entire writing staff and hire newbies? BSG, however, has earned my continued tolerance for their suffering senioritis. I am hoping for a big payoff, but am fairly certain that they will leave many questions unanswered.

THE BIG 4 LOSERS THIS SEASON:

#4 (honorable mention): Athena-her Boomer counterpart with the cylons seems to be getting more airplay than her. As mother of the first cylon-human child, you would think she would be more central. This ep in particular was very striking with how little she had to say (though she probably had more lines than all previous eps this season combined).

#3 (bronze): Roslin-the pres is too severe. She always had that no-nonsense side to her, but it seems to have taken over. Her attempt on Starbucks life after Starbuck gave her the gun is unforgivable in my book. All her actions since seem to ring of the kind of desperation that becomes apparent right before a nervous breakdown. Maybe this is the point, but for a character with cancer, she gains no sympathy.

#2 (silver): Lee-has just become plain annoying. He has always been an idealist, but now he seems to fight fights just because he can (not because he believes). His defense of Baltar last season was great due to the backdrop of the father-son relationship, but without that backdrop, all his actions ring hollow. Which brings us to...

#1 (gold): Baltar-now I've noticed that many posters do not like Baltar, and seem to never have. I, however, started watching the show BECAUSE of Baltar. His lucid sexual visions of 6 were always at inconvenient and inappropriate times. He was an incredibly brilliant coward, and made for fascinating TV. Now, he seems rather self-assured and is losing all that nervousness that made him so interesting. Granted, they didn't completely write-off his nervousness this season, but this past ep it was completely missing. I could care less about the religious angle, but to stay true to his character, this "messiah" or "prophet" needs to be filled with and expressing large quantities of self doubt!

warmbeachbrat
May 3rd, 2008, 09:47 PM
Here's an interesting review on the latest episode that perhaps touches on a reason why season 4 has been so disappointing to so many:

http://churchofthemasses.blogspot.com/2008/05/o-bsg-where-is-thy-victory.html


ETA: Don't worry--in spite of the blog name, it's not a religious blog or post....

Night Marshal
May 4th, 2008, 12:41 AM
I have to agree darkness for the sake of darkness doesn't really accomplish anything other than turning people off and I think Galatia has had a good balance of darkness over the years toning it seems unnecessary. I Feel the same way about killing characters. In a show like this people should be killed off, but just killing people off to meet the quota takes away the meaning of the death of characters. I personally feel the death of Cat wasn't handled all that well. I didn't see why they felt the need to write her out other than they felt it was time to kill someone. Also who is the CAG now. All the pilots of note are either dead, retired, or on Demetrius. This seems like there almost writing out the Galatica and her fighters out of the story.

Wayston
May 4th, 2008, 06:10 AM
Any even cursory study of the history of Islam would show you that Baltar's role isn't the role of Muhammed either. Muhammed was a wise virtuous man who wasn't using his followers for sex.

I realise that this isn't a religious debate and I suggest fans of islam don't click the spoiler but

iMohammed's life certainly wasn't the mushy story some people like to think it was. If you study Islam objectively you will notice that Muhammed was a bitter (the pro jew and christian commandements stemmed from the early days of his religion, when he thought he could convert everyone, later attitudes were a bit less tolerant) opportunistic (he carved out privileges for him which allah denied to everyone else) pedophiliac (had sex with an 8 year old, granted sexual morals were a bit different but sexual relations with under 12 year olds were outlandish even in those days) warlord (however you twist it islam was definatly spread by the sword a lot) who used his followers for sex (if he wanted booty, he made sure to tap it regardless of what it was previously married to).

But I agree that baltar isn't definitively based on any one prophetic figure in real life - he's a bit of everything rolled into one.

marielabbott
May 4th, 2008, 10:02 AM
This is the first episode this season that left me feeling slightly disappointed. There were some good scenes, but as a whole it felt kind of unfocused.

The scenes I liked best: Tyrol grabbing Baltar in anger for his inane comments about Cally and Tyrol's later nearly suicidal rage range true. Ander's talk with Leoben seemed almost more intense than Starbuck's.

I'm really not liking the Baltar as religious figure slant. His whole conversation with Tyrol in his quarters seemed odd.

I think a poster last week made a comment about how now is the time to start paying off and answering some questions. Maybe that was my problem with this episode--I was expecting some answers, or at least some solid hints at answers, but didn't really get any.

But I'm still eagerly waiting for the payoff.

Charon
May 4th, 2008, 11:59 AM
I had a mind full of thoughts and rants but it seems Tame got there first. It seems to me that the writers skipped over obvious "meaty" moments of tension in favor of more "diarrhea of the mouth" and "flawed-character building". As irksome as the past few (+) weeks have been, I still tune in, hoping. Now I know how my parents feel; seeing all that potential not being used. :o

Blitz
May 4th, 2008, 12:47 PM
Well - I will break the cycle and say...I enjoyed this episode.

The Baltar parts: I can see why many people don't but, I like the character...threes a lot of mystery and questions still revolving our good doctor and the fact he now believes, and is being thrown into these places amuses me.

Starbuck: Well I understand the mutiny, if they dont re-align with Galactica their presumed dead. Who wants that?
But I can see Starbucks madness, her quest, what shes for...She feels as if she knows where Earth is...and she is trying to get there FOR the fleet...

The show, in my opinion (I dnt care what the writers say, or reviews or nething else says) the show, for me is about people, the places their put in. The situations they have to live through - the choices.

LoneStar1836
May 4th, 2008, 07:12 PM
I suppose I found the episode underwhelming upon initial viewing. Haven't seen it a second time yet. Didn't pack much of a punch first time around.


Starbuck: Well I understand the mutiny, if they dont re-align with Galactica their presumed dead. Who wants that?
But I can see Starbucks madness, her quest, what shes for...She feels as if she knows where Earth is...and she is trying to get there FOR the fleet...Agreed. Helo is being the rational one. They do need to make that rendezvous point. The others (except for Anders) are just *****ing and complaining probably because they got stuck with this detail in the first place...as well as having to deal with Kara's behavior for two months so them wanting to mutiny is no surprise, but Helo is the loyal friend who wants to believe in Kara. That's why Adama had him go as her XO...Helo more than anyone else is able to get along with Kara and is still able to keep his cool. But he also has to be the voice of reason as Kara is in no condition to think rationally so I can't fault him for his decision to ultimately not back Kara in the end.

Secondly, the matter of dealing with the basestar needs more planning and consideration. I'm sure Kara is afraid that Adama wouldn't let her return, but Helo has no real reason to believe Leoben about the intent of the Cylons on the basestar. He can't chance it.

I'm not sure what's up with Sharon. She needs to be more vocal. Maybe her silence has got to do with her mindset that she has to be as human as she can possibly be in order to fit in, but she has to have some kind of relevant input. Granted she has been out of the Cylon loop for some time but she is still a Cylon. That fact still has to be of some benefit to the humans. Course I can see her wanting to go back to Galactica as much as anyone considering she left Hera behind. (Something completely out of character, imo. There is no way she would have done that.) There has to be something that this character is going to contribute in the upcoming episode otherwise her going along is a waste of the character other than the fact that it gave the actress some face time.



The show, in my opinion (I dnt care what the writers say, or reviews or nething else says) the show, for me is about people, the places their put in. The situations they have to live through - the choices.Agreed. While I love the story that BSG tells, I love the character struggles and triumphs the most. Obviously we are getting a lot of struggle this season and practically zero triumph, but so far it's not a turn off for me. I suppose the actually story story part could move along a bit more, but the people part of the story is still fascinating.

I do think it will pay out in the end. *crosses fingers* The light will eventually break through this heavy darkness. Though at this point I'm not quite sure if I can consider Baltar's story that steeped in darkness any longer. He's reached somewhat of a turning point. Now whether this new side of him is genuine or not, I guess is still to be determined. I'm not sure I'm completely convinced yet. His character appears to have reached a point of having found hope in the darkness which is absent in many of the others at this point.

I think the ultimate ending to the story will be one of triumph but at a heavy cost and not before a great deal of pain and struggle. Darkness before the dawn.

anotherquestion
May 4th, 2008, 08:22 PM
First of all the entire series does not have to have a "Hollywood Ending" to remain an honest show. In fact, all that really needs to happen is to actually find Earth and come up with a coherent explanation of its place in the Cylon/Colonial "Cycle of History" (this has all happened before, yadda, yadda, yadda). All the secondary characters and most of the major ones can expire along the way, but winding up those two threads are the sine qua non of the series exposition (notice how I covertly worked in the title of a future episode in a way that it is almost certainly not a spoiler).

I think it says a lot about the effectiveness of a series that so many of the characters are unlikable, even obnoxious, but the faithful followers keep tuning in regardless. BSG has become the dramatic Seinfeld in this sense.

I agree with AuthurKing and other posters about this being the nadir of each of the characters holding on to what seemed to make them act like "themselves" earlier in the series. Adama's mission statement to Kara was unjustified militarily, Tyrol's growing infatuation with Baltar's snake oil undermines his upbringing as the son of an Oracle, Roslin's growing hardline position is a dramatic reversal of course from her earlier politically liberal philosophy, and, most of all, Baltars adherence to his new faith undermines what he has always been about in the past: Betrayal for its own sake.

It seems that the closer the fleet comes to Earth the more each major character loses his/her own way. By the time they actually reach Earth, perhaps no one will be recognizable anymore.

Kara's "finger painting" (as hilariously alluded to by my new favorite Viper pilot) can be no substitute for serious navigation. This is one of many reasons for dissatisfaction with the current string of episodes. As pointed out by many posters, there has not been enough payoffs for all the setups. Athena should have at least scanned the Heavy Raiders internal log files to verify Leoban's story (simultaneously reinforcing her Cylon-ness and her utility to the Colonials).

Since every character is not acting like themselves, the same discord should apply to Leoban. For once he should speak clearly, and not equivocate and be as obfuscating as an experienced U. S. Senator.

Sisko197
May 4th, 2008, 10:39 PM
I like the religious undertones because it gets me thinking. I think this story was a bridge story that will take us from action plot to the next action plot and, because of that, it is necessarily slower and more talky than ...say, the death of significant characters in airlocks. For which, there are so many.

That said, I think equating Baltar to Jesus Christ is misguided. He has black hair. He grew a beard. Yes, that was a Christ image and it was done at the end of last season to foreshadow the path he was to take. Certainly. But that doesn't make him Jesus Christ. In fact, his background as a prophet is not like Jesus Christ's. It's more like Paul the Apostle.

Think about it. In the mini-series, Leoben does some hypotheticals with Adama about the soul, God, and the idea that God (or the gods) might have decided to give another being a soul. The Cylons seem to have no homeworld or none that they stay on for very long. And if I remember correctly, the Xena cylon says that they are looking for Earth to make it their homeworld. A race in diaspora. They believe in rebirth from death (not the afterlife mythos of Christianity) and they have come into a situation where they are warring over the meaning of their religion, some believing that the revelation of the Final 5 can restore to their people what they've lost for all their bloodlust over the last few years and some believing that the religion is a last bit of pointless programming that needs to be overcome to finally comfort themselves with what they really are.

In that, I think the Cylons are the Chosen of God and they have gone astray. The Christian myth is based around that very idea. Jews, back in the day, weren't really quick to say, "Yeah, Jesus is the Son of God and the coming of God that we were waiting for." Despite there being signs (or not depending on who you believe), the Jews refused, to a large degree, to believe that Jesus Christ was the coming of God to Earth that they believed would come. So after the Apostles had difficulty converting Jews to the faith of Jesus Christ, Paul twisted things around and began converting the non-Jews to Christianity, who took it much more quickly because they were tired of the many gods that were fickle and really not at all reliable to pray to.

So the original theory of the Jews was that God would come down. Non-Jews everywhere would see God in all His glory and convert after the Chosen of God went to be with Him. But the early Christians thought God had come in the form of Jesus, but many Jews didn't believe this. So Paul said, "Hey, let's just switch it."

So God came down, Paul began converting non-Jews en masse and hoped that those conversions would bring the Jews in large back over once everyone else was converted.

I see this as the same thing. There is no Jesus Christ. But the One God used Baltar, the very symbol of the most broken, most sinful, most twisted human being, to be the living message of the faith of the One God and bring it to all corners of the fleet. Converting mankind because the Chosen, the Cylons, have fallen from favor.

Remember. These humans never had the Puritanical ideal that made sex to be a sin. This does color *our* perceptions of the act and makes it have a stigma, but in this universe I've seen no hint that this is the case or was ever the case in this world. Sex just is. Probably a healthy way to look at it. So talking about Baltar having lots of sex, even now, is just attaching your distantly Puritan-derived sexual discomfort to characters who never had the cultural event to cause them to feel the same.

Baltar is nothing like the rapist of Zeus myth. And Baltar having sex is just his way. Like Six. In fact, it makes them perfect for each other and reflective of the fact that sex for both races, Cylon and Human, has no stigma at all.

So yeah. I like watching Baltar convert the people to his religion. I don't know if the One God has their best interests in mind just like I don't know if Starbuck really is leading the fleet to life or death.

I do know that religious movements like the one Baltar is leading rarely wind up ending well for the figure who is guiding the movement and that such fundamental shifts in religious belief often lead to war. Already, the Cylons have fallen to war. How long before the Fleet, too, fights over this?

Mongoletsi
May 5th, 2008, 11:27 AM
How dare they kill off Gunny Matthias. They should've just killed off that pistol-whipped Viper pilot dude instead.
I always thought she was pretty good, whenever she got scenes. Shame.

Mongoletsi
May 5th, 2008, 11:41 AM
because atleast when he has the beard he bore a striking resemblance toward Jesus..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:RFJesus.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_of_Jesus)

;)

Mongoletsi
May 5th, 2008, 11:49 AM
Comments on them supposedly associating Baltar with Jesus are far more telling about the poster than they are about the show's writing.
Bingo Gringo!

Mongoletsi
May 5th, 2008, 11:56 AM
This reminds me that Kara is still human... or at least the pre-viper-incident kara.
Starbuck ain't a Cylon, give it up now :D


As a Messianic Jew I ...
Hah! Some of my Jewish friends deny such a thing exists. More to do with an insular nature than denial. At last! Proof! On a frakin BSG forum ;)


At any-rate this series hasn't convinced me that there isn't the God whom I and Christianity believe in.
As a devout atheist/humanist/rationalist/whatever, I'm actually a bit uncomfortable with the religious aspect. Side with the Humans, and you're expected to believe in the colonial gods, side with the Cylons and it's theirs.

Mongoletsi
May 5th, 2008, 12:11 PM
tyrol seems like the apostle paul. if one equates baltar to being jesus. hm who does tory seem like of the disciples? and who would tigh be? anders definitely would easily fall into being part of the baltar religion

Good point. If we do apply Christian dogma, then Mary Magadelen for Tory. Dunno about Tigh; maybe because this wasn't the intent


Any even cursory study of the history of Islam would show you that Baltar's role isn't the role of Muhammed either.
It's more like Muhammed than Jesus.


One thing that bugs me is why is Adama allowing all these civvies on the Galactica with Baltar? It seems he's gotten lax in security from the first season. Is it that they just don't have the ships to put them all on or what?
Agreed. They seem to be all over the place, and integrated with the crew. It's my understanding though that the unservicable pod is home to a load of people though?

entil2001
May 5th, 2008, 02:59 PM
It’s always difficult to review the first part of any multi-part story, because what may seem like a weakness or a plot hole could easily be resolved by the end of the tale. There’s precious little resolution to be found. Most of this episode is devoted to setting up the next turn in the season arc, now that the introductory elements have been put in place.

The title of the episode refers to the famous poem by Robert Frost, in which the road less traveled is the more difficult path, yet ultimately the more rewarding. It’s been a favorite literary metaphor in the arts (almost to the point of cliché), but there’s a reason it works so well. We all want to believe that making the hard effort will grant us the greatest reward. It happens so little in life that it’s cathartic to see it happen on the stage or screen.

In this case, the metaphor applies to three individuals, all at a crossroads: Kara Thrace, Galen Tyrol, and Gaius Baltar. The most obvious example is Kara and her search for Earth. Her “road less traveled” is through the disbelief and disloyalty of her crew; she must find a way to follow her instincts despite the roadblocks thrown in her path. It doesn’t help that the journey may require trusting the one Cylon that has been her personal nemesis: Leoben.

Leoben has always been touched by a certain mystical insight, and his avatar was used in “Maelstrom” to lead Kara into the abyss. In fact, that must be one reason why she’s willing to listen to what he says about her visions and destiny. She’s the only one with that knowledge, however, so her decisions seem completely unhinged. To some extent, they are, but her intersection with reality has been tenuous since her return anyway. Whatever the case, she has internal justification for trusting her instincts.

The interaction between Anders and Leoben is interesting in that Leoben doesn’t seem to recognize that Anders is actually one of the Final Five. Not counting D’Anna (since her model is still boxed), I would have expected Leoben to have some insight. On the other hand, Leoben’s model has been on Cavil’s side of the Cylon Civil War, so why would he even begin to consider that Anders would be one of his own? It’s one of those apparent inconsistencies that will need to get cleared up before much longer.

Back on Galactica, Tyrol is not reacting well to his sudden free time. He’s still trying to get his bearings after recognizing his true nature, and Tigh and Tory have done little to help him find a purpose. He spends most of this episode resisting the urge to give Baltar’s message consideration, but it seems like a lost cause. It would be quite ironic if the newly revealed Cylons all wound up listening and following, overtly or covertly, Baltar’s message about God.

Baltar continues to follow his own difficult path as he begins to believe in the possibility of his own redemption. There are a couple of ways to interpret Baltar’s current arc, both of which would be equally valid based on the character to date. On one hand, Baltar could be living in the most complete example of self-delusion ever encountered. On the other hand, he could have started the journey as an opportunist and found something true and powerful within the message somewhere along the way.

The connective tissue in all cases is the impact that each individual could have on the Colonist society. Baltar’s cult is slowly but surely growing, and as conditions within the fleet continue to degrade, it could begin to catch on with more and more influential members of the government. If Tyrol, a public figure with a very public breakdown, joins the cause in a substantial way, that could be the beginning of the process. Should Kara’s “road less traveled” somehow produce something that ties into Baltar’s new philosophy, it could go ever further. I look forward to seeing if the conclusion of this particular story confirms this suspicion.



John Keegan
Reprinted with permission
Original source: c. Critical Myth, 2008
All rights reserved
Link: http://www.criticalmyth.com

LoneStar1836
May 5th, 2008, 03:10 PM
On the other hand, Leoben’s model has been on Cavil’s side of the Cylon Civil War, so why would he even begin to consider that Anders would be one of his own? It’s one of those apparent inconsistencies that will need to get cleared up before much longer.Actually he is not. He sided with the Sixs and Eights.

Cavil, Doral, and Simon have sided together...as well as Boomer.

GateofDOOM
May 6th, 2008, 01:03 AM
*Yawns*
When is "Guess What's Coming to Dinner" airing?

omgpix
May 6th, 2008, 05:26 AM
Baltar's religion is so generic that you could see it as a parallel to any monotheistic religion, but seeing as how it's so generic, there isn't any reason at all, at all, that a Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian, should take it as a personal attack, to do so wreaks of insecurity.

And if that fails, let's put it this way: You don't see me listening and phoning into religious talk shows, complaining of too much Jesus and backwards social views.

Pic
May 6th, 2008, 10:15 AM
bleh... more Baltar.

As for the whole religion thing, I agree with omgpix --- I think it's ambiguous enough to 'feel' like many religions on earth, but generic enough to not really imitate any of them specifically. This is probably for good reason - plus, doesn't it illustrate how similar many of them are and make our (aka. humans on earth in RL) petty disagreements seem somewhat... well, petty?

Just to throw another one into the fire --- if someone mentioned this and I didn't see it, I apologize --- Baltar is seeming more like a mormon stereo-type in the episode. Polygamy and pot-luck dinners. Was that algae-jello? (too bad my mormon relatives don't watch BSG, they'd probably get a kick out of that scene)

Each episode is showing us the dark side of a character that we probably love to like (Starbuck, Roslin, Lee) vs. a character we love to hate (Baltar). This season is really shaping up to be one about identity and what it means to be who we are regardless of what we are.

Of course, next week will probably make me revise that opinion.

Mongoletsi
May 6th, 2008, 12:23 PM
... but seeing as how it's so generic, there isn't any reason at all, at all, that a Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian, should take it as a personal attack, to do so wreaks of insecurity.
Exactly. But ya know, Christians in the US turned to the courts to propagate their fairytales, whilst Muslims were in uproar over a bear named (BY MUSLIM CHILDREN) Mohammed. I'm surprised RDM isn't in hiding with Rushdie by now ;)

Mongoletsi
May 6th, 2008, 12:24 PM
Just to throw another one into the fire --- if someone mentioned this and I didn't see it, I apologize --- Baltar is seeming more like a mormon stereo-type in the episode. Polygamy and pot-luck dinners. Was that algae-jello? (too bad my mormon relatives don't watch BSG, they'd probably get a kick out of that scene)
RDM is a Mormon.

Skydiver
May 6th, 2008, 12:35 PM
guys, I haven't seen the eps yet, so i don't know the context, but let's keep the real world religion out of the discussion about a fiction show and keep it on the topic of the episode please

Mongoletsi
May 6th, 2008, 12:59 PM
guys, I haven't seen the eps yet, so i don't know the context, but let's keep the real world religion out of the discussion about a fiction show and keep it on the topic of the episode please
With the greatest of respect sah, the comparisons are entirely valid and enlightening, and better than usual shizzle about giving one to Starbuck, or how everybody feels sorry for so-and-so :)

Watch the frakin episode!

Madeleine
May 6th, 2008, 01:16 PM
Mongolesti, it's possible to comment on religious themes or paralels within the show, without bringing actual RL religion into this. Which is a damned good thing, because RL religious arguments invariably become ridiculous very rapidly.

Post about the frackin episode ;)

Night Marshal
May 6th, 2008, 01:28 PM
RDM is a Mormon.

I think your thinking of Glen A. Larson.

As for where Moore stands this is from an interview early in the show on the subject of religion

Gives some insight doesn't really say anything on the Baltar but worth reading
http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=584

Ellison: My next question is about religion. The Cylons are the monotheists; they believe in God and are good Christian folk. And the crew, who are our heroes, are polytheists like the ancient Egyptians or Greeks. It was always interesting, but until recently there was never a third element; now the venue has changed and there’s a supernatural quality. A spiritual force is at work. Can you codify that?

Moore: I sort of felt that as the religious aspects of the show were becoming more common and started to dominate plot lines and certain character attributes, you sort of had to make a choice at some level about whether that was all bull**** or not. Does it mean something? Is all this worship just about talk and about made up religions that don’t mean anything? Or is there the possibility of something greater? These are the existential questions. Is this all that I am? Is there something more? Why am I here?

If all the characters on the show are asking themselves those questions, I felt that on some level I wanted to give a hint that maybe they’re not all fools. That maybe there’s some greater truth that they’re all struggling toward, that none of them can see perfectly. So I started to feather in ideas that could not be explained by rational means. While never really coming out and saying that God is behind the curtain, I wanted to have elements of it.

One of the things that I had noticed working on Star Trek, and in science fiction in general, was that mainstream science fiction tended to shy away from this as a subject. Gene Roddenberry felt very strongly that in the future of Star Trek, religions were all gone; that in 300 to 400 years mankind had evolved beyond it; that religions were all superstitions and were things of the past. It was a very secular humanist idea, which I don’t have a problem with philosophically, but I didn’t believe as a storyteller that in just a few centuries we would discard this fundamental thing that had informed our societies for so long.

So, I just felt that in this world in Galactica, which had nomenclature like Apollo and Athena and all these names of the Greek gods, it beggared the imagination to say that they didn’t really believe in it. And if they did believe it in, I wanted to give it some validity and show that there is something out there.

Edit: thanks Mods for bring this thread back under control I think this is a issue where people on both side get so dug in that it becomes little more than a yelling match.

warmbeachbrat
May 6th, 2008, 01:29 PM
RDM is a Mormon.

According to the interview linked to earlier in this thread, RDM is a lapsed Catholic (his words). The creator of the original series, Glen Larson, is a Mormon.


ETA: Oops! Nevermind--someone beat me to it while I was typing....:o

Matt G
May 6th, 2008, 02:39 PM
1. Please Chief, mate - don't join Baltar!

2. Though him finding out that Tory killed Cally could be interesting.

3. Problem on Starbuck's end is that I suspect she's on the money one way or another...but she's also my bet for the 12th Cylon. Her interaction with Leoben says that much.

4. Which is why I think the mutiny is the wrong thing for the right reasons.

Very interesting set up - let's see where it goes!

m57lyra
May 6th, 2008, 08:51 PM
It wouldn't have been a huge difference if Tyrol had taken his hand in that first scene rather than needing the whole episode to end up there anyway.

I disagree. When Tyrol does take Baltar's hand in private, in his quarters, it is a very humble Baltar. Shaking the showman Baltar's hand in front of a crowd carries a very different meaning for both characters.

m57lyra
May 6th, 2008, 08:59 PM
Bald Tyrol reminded me of that fat guy from Full Metal Jacket. He looks badass though.

One thing that bugs me is why is Adama allowing all these civvies on the Galactica with Baltar? It seems he's gotten lax in security from the first season. Is it that they just don't have the ships to put them all on or what?

Funny, made the exact same connection with the baldness!

I believe Roslyn said she wanted him (and therefor them) close so they can have a close watch kept on them.

Morbius
May 7th, 2008, 09:41 AM
I disagree. When Tyrol does take Baltar's hand in private, in his quarters, it is a very humble Baltar. Shaking the showman Baltar's hand in front of a crowd carries a very different meaning for both characters.

QFT.

Baltar is the only character i think has been handled well all season.

To their credit this episode was a lot better than the first couple, most of the characters behaved as if they still were the same core people.

Even starbuck was mostly watchable.

VSS
May 7th, 2008, 11:30 AM
1. Please Chief, mate - don't join Baltar!

2. Though him finding out that Tory killed Cally could be interesting.

3. Problem on Starbuck's end is that I suspect she's on the money one way or another...but she's also my bet for the 12th Cylon. Her interaction with Leoben says that much.

4. Which is why I think the mutiny is the wrong thing for the right reasons.

Very interesting set up - let's see where it goes!

Okay, here's my second post ever on BSG (though I recognize some of you from That Other Show's forums) so feel free to correct me any time.

I have a feeling you're right on #2. I had to watch the ep on Hulu and ended up watching it twice once DH noticed what I was doing- and Thrace says something like "If I could only hear it." as she was looking at her paintings. Before, she mentioned only "a feeling." This jumped out at me because the others heard music (and of course she was gone then).

And I think that when they get back to Galactica, the Admiral might just blow a gasket because they didn't listen to her, and mutinied. So I agree with your point 4.

I'm sick of the religious angle, but I don't necessarily think its offensive to anyone- Baltar says "God loves you because you are perfect." That doesn't sound like any religion I know, certainly not Christanity. This is the cult of Baltar, and he's saying exactly what a cult leader would say to draw people in. You're perfect. We love you. No one understands you but me. I'll take care of you.

Real religions are demanding. This is Baltar's latest power trip, nothing more. It'll be interesting to see what happens when his followers find that out.

pynapl
May 8th, 2008, 07:19 PM
Ok, this isn’t directed at any post in particular, but reading some of the opinions about the season made me think…(and if someone already touched base on this, I apologize, I just got the spark in my head and wanted to get it out there before finishing the rest of the posts.)
I have this feeling that season 4 will be much more enjoyable on the DVD’s rather than watching week to week. The whole “big picture” thing seems like it’s playing out now, only watching week by week makes it much harder to take in, as it makes the progress seem even slower than it actually is. Thinking of the past episodes, and especially taking in the preview for the next one, I really think the problem is the 7 day wait in between. I’m tempted to wait and watch them after they’ve all aired. (Curiosity will probably get the better of me, but it’s still a thought.)

I don’t really have much new to add about this episode other than I wish I would have waited to watch it until just before the next one aired.

Trek_Girl42
May 9th, 2008, 10:00 AM
3. Problem on Starbuck's end is that I suspect she's on the money one way or another...
That's the great thing- she is, and as viewers we sympathize with that and want her to have her way to find earth. But look at it objectively and it's insane! Going on gut instinct "feelings" and finger paintings? Why would anyone follow that nut-job? So looking at it from that angle I want them all to get the frak away from this. But watching the show, I do really want them to follow and trust Starbuck and her finger painting and find earth because I care so much about the character and the finger painting is very cool. I love that as a viewer I can have two opposing opinions on so many aspects of the show and both are "right". :zelenka25:

Ok, this isn’t directed at any post in particular, but reading some of the opinions about the season made me think…(and if someone already touched base on this, I apologize, I just got the spark in my head and wanted to get it out there before finishing the rest of the posts.)
I have this feeling that season 4 will be much more enjoyable on the DVD’s rather than watching week to week. The whole “big picture” thing seems like it’s playing out now, only watching week by week makes it much harder to take in, as it makes the progress seem even slower than it actually is. Thinking of the past episodes, and especially taking in the preview for the next one, I really think the problem is the 7 day wait in between. I’m tempted to wait and watch them after they’ve all aired. (Curiosity will probably get the better of me, but it’s still a thought.)

I don’t really have much new to add about this episode other than I wish I would have waited to watch it until just before the next one aired.I kinda agree. But I'm someone who loves a good slow build-up- in some ways I dread the "answers"- who the cylon is, where Earth is, when will Roslin die, because it means we're so close to the end. I feel like I could just spend forever watching these characters. :P But we're at the point now where five eps in the viewers are on edge waiting for the payoff, so hopefully we'll get something juicy tonight. ;)

It'll be amazing to watch on DVD- I found that the second half of season three felt slow when it aired because of the standalones, but on DVD I absolutely loved going through them in a couple of days- I couldn't stop. I just find that whenever I put BSG into my DVD player, I can't stick to just one episode- I end up watching two or three.....or more. It just sucks me in no matter how many times I've seen it. :P

Pic
May 10th, 2008, 05:13 AM
I watched the 2nd half of s3 on DVD, too. Being back-to-back (and right before s4) made it flow very nicely.
Holding out on s4 until I can do that.... it's just too hard to resist. Must. Watch. Now.

daniel9
May 13th, 2008, 04:37 PM
podcast for this ep is up