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GateWorld
April 10th, 2008, 01:27 PM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD STYLE="border:0;"><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/"><IMG SRC="http://www.scifistream.com/wp-content/uploads/4041.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid;" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">BATTLESTAR GALACTICA SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.scifistream.com/battlestar-galactica/s4/" STYLE="text-decoration: none">ESCAPE VELOCITY</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 404</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
After suffering a major loss and slipping up on the job, Chief Tyrol goes through a major personal crisis. Baltar's sanctuary is assaulted, leading him to protest against the Colonials' gods. Tigh begins to see his dead wife in the face of the Cylon prisoner.

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Trek_Girl42
April 25th, 2008, 07:44 PM
Finally!

Anyone else as disturbed as I was when the Chief freaked out in the bar? And what he said about Cally! Yikes! :S

DigiFluid
April 25th, 2008, 07:57 PM
That made me sad.

Pharaoh Atem
April 25th, 2008, 07:58 PM
I can't believe that there are only six more episodes this year. :S
but we get to discover who the final cylon is within those eps :D
after watching tonight i still can't figure out who it is

daniel9
April 25th, 2008, 07:59 PM
we discover who the final cylon is in the last eps of the season. which is not this yr probably

DigiFluid
April 25th, 2008, 08:04 PM
In case the other thread doesn't get copied into this one, my other post:


I love the Baltar story more every time I see it. He was great as the crazy scientist, interesting as a politician, fascinating as a criminal, and now just downright captivating as a prophet. I don't know what to be more grateful for, the terrific writing for the part or James Callis' acting chops.

Interesting to see Tory becoming more involved with Baltar, I thought. She seems to be spending more time with him, and in his sermon at the end he seems to have embraced the idea of divine love and perfection in its creation (though, with his own take).

I kept thinking of the Temple of Five last season, and the five priests of 'the one who shall not be named'. Tory spending more time with Baltar's sect, Saul seeking absolution in Caprica Six, Tyrol losing it and (presumably at some point soon) needing peace of mind. Anders wasn't hardly there this week, so I'll have to reserve judgement on him and this "trend".

Nice also to see Lee as being more useful. Last week he seemed like a bad pawn of Tom Zarek (speaking of whom, where was he this week?) but this week he actually seems to have made a difference. Interesting to see his reaction to Baltar's sermon as well, wouldn't that be a hell of a twist if he came to believe in monotheism.

Every week I grow less and less sympathetic to Roslin...which is kind of sad, I used to like her so much. These days though, I find myself not really caring that she's going to die. The only sadness I feel in it is her fear of dying an empty death. Beyond that, her increasingly selfish and dare I say, totalitarian tactics are making her far more of a hazard to the fleet as a whole than anything Baltar could be doing.

Trek_Girl42
April 25th, 2008, 08:04 PM
Can someone tell me what happened during the first minute or two after the second commercial break? I missed a bit and my vcr has been taken over so I can't check. :S

marielabbott
April 25th, 2008, 08:13 PM
Finally!

Anyone else as disturbed as I was when the Chief freaked out in the bar? And what he said about Cally! Yikes! :S

That was rather disturbing. I wonder if it was his grief and anger talking, or how he really feels? :S

I liked the funeral at the beginning--very different from the military type funerals we've seen before. Also liked Adama's comment about how he never finished his favorite book, because he didn't want it to end. Little wink at the fans, maybe? ;)

Tory really is disturbing, with her claim to be perfect and encouraging the Chief to accept he is. And her complaining that the funeral was at dawn? Sorry to get your murdering butt out of bed so early. :S

Tigh and Six? :S And :S for good measure. More disturbing than Cavil and Boomer last week.

I don't think the religious service Gauis interrupted would explode into violence immediately like that. And I don't like the "you are perfect as you are, look into yourself and see the spark of god" religion Gauis seems to be promoting. It was interesting to see him practically forced by Six to stand against the guards...what are we to make of that?

Next week--Leoben and Starbuck, and mutiny! :D

Trek_Girl42
April 25th, 2008, 08:27 PM
That was rather disturbing. I wonder if it was his grief and anger talking, or how he really feels? :S
I don't want to know.....well, yes I do, but I don't. You know what I mean. :P

I liked the funeral at the beginning--very different from the military type funerals we've seen before. Also liked Adama's comment about how he never finished his favorite book, because he didn't want it to end. Little wink at the fans, maybe? ;)
That was beautiful. Though when Roslin said that she liked it and that sh e wanted Adama to know what she liked.....they just have to hit us over the head with her impending demise every episode don't they..... :( :P

Tory really is disturbing, with her claim to be perfect and encouraging the Chief to accept he is. And her complaining that the funeral was at dawn? Sorry to get your murdering butt out of bed so early. :SShe's gone real scary.....the fact that she goes to Baltar and has no problem.....servicing him, after all her previous opinions about him is just.....yuck. It's like she's trying to convince herself that she's perfect, but she really has no value for herself any more. I actually find that more creepy than Boomer/Cavil, Tigh/Caprica.


Tigh and Six? :S And :S for good measure. More disturbing than Cavil and Boomer last week.

I don't think the religious service Gauis interrupted would explode into violence immediately like that. And I don't like the "you are perfect as you are, look into yourself and see the spark of god" religion Gauis seems to be promoting. It was interesting to see him practically forced by Six to stand against the guards...what are we to make of that?

Next week--Leoben and Starbuck, and mutiny! :DLeoben.....yes! I really want to see where their whole thing is going, easily one of my favourite relationships on the show. Looks like Starbuck might be returning to her "Flesh and Blood" role.

Major Fischer
April 25th, 2008, 08:39 PM
So I started my standard commentary post and have abandoned it because I lost the ability to write coherently about this episode as I watched it. I was not anticipating liking it. I wasn't expecting much from it at all really, the spoilers had looked uninteresting, the episode description was transitional.

And it was transitional and I adore it anyway. I am sure that there are people out there who do not like this episode because nothing happened. I adore it because nothing happened. Battlestar Galactica is at it's best when it focuses on character, and that is entirely what this episode was. Wonderful, glorious, ugly, beautiful, character. People in transition as the world speeds up the closer we get to the middle.

So the episode.

Cally's funeral brings me back to one of those things about Battlestar Galactica that I have always loved. Today we tend to think of the Greeco-Roman pantheon as something silly. Campy television shows haven't helped this. What Battlestar does wonderfully is makes it a real faith, and the people who believe in it have real and abiding faith. It also brings out a deliciously difficult problem that such societies have with mystery religions. I once had to read a book for a class, The Christians as the Romans Saw Them and Roslin's delima really speaks volumes of the problem that arrises when a monotheistic religion pops up in a pluralist pagan society. A new god can always be absorbed into the pantheon, but one God forces both believers and non-believers to seperate themselves from each other. Something the Colonials really can't very well afford to do. Tricky question.

I'm not sure I like Roslin's dictatorial bent recently, but really when we are honest she's always had those tendencies for the last year or two and we just haven't seen the push back. Is Lee right? Is Roslin right? Or is it as in most things in governemtn the tragic case where they are both right, and wrong at the same time.

Is democracy a luxery when there are only 39,000 people left? It is recieved canon (to use religious terms) for Americans to say that democracy even in wartime will work. We had an election in the middle of a civil war (though few today seem to remember how flawed the presidential election of 1864 was). We had an election in the middle of World War II (though few of us seem to think about the social pressures on anyone who would have voted against FDR). But we have never been in the position the colonials are in. It seems ot me a bit presumptious for us to say that democracy is always the right solution.

And the fact that this show can make me think about when and under what circumstances I would support a dictatorship is one of the things I love. Because before tonight I'm not sure I'd have said I'd ever support one. I've said that I thought Roslin was a dictator before, and that while I love her as a character she'd scare me if I lived in her society. Tonight I think I have to change my answer. I would be scared of her if I lived in that society, but I think I would chose her over chaos.

Sign me up for a brand new brown shirt.

Roslin attends all the funerals in the fleet? Or just the military? Or is she just "shopping around" for what she likes. I see Adama still hasn't accepted that she will die and doesn't want to hear it. On the subject of Roslin and Adama they are being rather open about it these days it seems. I'm rather meh on the wig, but I think it's almost important to show a stripping away of her identity as a human being.

I once said (in a fic of all things) that I thought it was possible that the dying leader prophecy wasn't a litteral one. That Roslin was the dying leader and what was dying was her soul. If you had pulled Laura Roslin aside the day before the attack and asked her what she thought about laws and rules and democracy I think she'd answer every last question in exactly the opposite way that she is answering them now. The Laura Roslin who stepped onto Galactica in that horrible violet suit is dead, or at the very least dying.

So now we know what Kate Vernon was filming. I can not communicate how much I adore Kate Vernon, Tricia Helfer, and Michael Hogan. Those were some of the most amazing scenes in the entire series. I have often wondered what Caprica thinks about when she thinks about the genocide. The fact that she feels profoundly guilty somehow gratifies me. The fact that she regrets, despite what the Colonials have done to her. The fact that from the start of the series where she snapped a baby's neck to becoming the most sympathetic character on the entire series... just makes it all the more delicious.

Is Tigh projecting Ellen? Perhaps. Is the Chief projecting? Perhaps. I don't know what is going on with the final four, but it is interesting. It is interesting to see them struggle and fight and love and coem to terms, or refuse to come to terms.

Has Tigh been punishing himself his entire life to feel? Has he needed real unselfish love? And what the frak does Caprica think is going on in this conversation, because she clearly doesn't know he's a cylon.

Tory and the one true god. Or Tory and sex. Or oh frak where to start with Tory. Okay, so I find Tory really compelling and damn sexy. Yes, I'm a freak. I love how her sad little robot frequencies seem to be messed up, but at the same time she was still on the same theme of intentional infliction of pain that the Chief and Tigh were. I wonder if Roslin knows she's attending those meetings. I wonder if she was among the women who charged the temple.

I want to see Roslin's reaction when she finds out.

If Tory and Head!Six are the angel and devil on Baltar's shoulders now... which is which? Damn you writers for making me care about Gaius Baltar, I've never lied that character.

The Raptor Crash. All I can say about this is how spectacular the special effects were. I was certain that Racetrack had died in that crash and I'm wondering if the effects people didn't know that the pilots lived because... I don't see how they could have...

No cylons this week... damn I want to know what's going on...

Almost no Starbuck this week... thank god. Or gods.

marielabbott
April 25th, 2008, 08:39 PM
I don't want to know.....well, yes I do, but I don't. You know what I mean. :P

Yeah, I think I do. :p



That was beautiful. Though when Roslin said that she liked it and that sh e wanted Adama to know what she liked.....they just have to hit us over the head with her impending demise every episode don't they..... :( :P


They really do. :( I thought it was interesting--and kind of disturbing--for Roslin to talk about how her impending death has kind of made her not care so much for conventional morality...kind of explains some of her recent decisions.


She's gone real scary.....the fact that she goes to Baltar and has no problem.....servicing him, after all her previous opinions about him is just.....yuck. It's like she's trying to convince herself that she's perfect, but she really has no value for herself any more. I actually find that more creepy than Boomer/Cavil, Tigh/Caprica.

That scene was yucky. :S There was a theme of pleasure/pain through this ep, with her and Baltar and Six/Tigh. Probably fitting for a season that is really blurring the lines between human/Cylon.


Leoben.....yes! I really want to see where their whole thing is going, easily one of my favourite relationships on the show. Looks like Starbuck might be returning to her "Flesh and Blood" role.

I'll just say--yay! :D

hoof
April 25th, 2008, 08:47 PM
Another episode that raised a bunch of questions. I wonder when we're going to start getting answers.

So was Tyrol we saw in the bar the Cylon Psyche emerging for a brief period? Wass that the "real" Tyrol, who for whatever reason decided to live with the humans, but now feels its time to emerge?

Is Ellen and the 6 series related? Did they put a 6-wig on Ellen? Is it just in Tigh's mind or was Ellen really related to the 6-cylon in some way? Is 6 going to realize who/what Tigh really is?

I'm getting concerned that the first half of the season is just going to give us a bunch more mysteries, then we have to wait that year before we finally get some answers during the 2nd half of the season. It feels like RDM has tossed a bunch of juggling pins in the air, but none have come down yet. After a while, adding more mysteries to the show just doesn't have the same impact. It's time to start actually have stuff happen, answer some questions, give us some story to follow. The stage has been set, the prelude has gone on for 4 episodes, let's see something actually happen!

Trek_Girl42
April 25th, 2008, 10:09 PM
Is Ellen and the 6 series related? Did they put a 6-wig on Ellen? Is it just in Tigh's mind or was Ellen really related to the 6-cylon in some way? Is 6 going to realize who/what Tigh really is?I think it was just in Tigh's head.....emotional damage and all.

But it was very eerie, how much like an aged Six Kate Vernon looked with that wig on. Positively creepy. :D

Trek_Girl42
April 25th, 2008, 10:14 PM
They really do. :( I thought it was interesting--and kind of disturbing--for Roslin to talk about how her impending death has kind of made her not care so much for conventional morality...kind of explains some of her recent decisions. Yup. I love her in her non-political scenes, but when she sits in that quorum and makes the decisions.....she's frustrating! Have to wonder if all of her choices have been like this, as we haven't seen much of the quorum before now, or if it's just since her the impending-ness of her death has increased. Definitely leaning toward the latter, but as we haven't seen much of this side, I think some of it had to have been there before.

I missed Zerak baning the gavel this week.


That scene was yucky. :S There was a theme of pleasure/pain through this ep, with her and Baltar and Six/Tigh. Probably fitting for a season that is really blurring the lines between human/Cylon.

I'll just say--yay! :D
Talk about the pleasure/pain theme continuing next week.....

AutumnDream
April 26th, 2008, 12:41 AM
Holy eff that was weird. :S

GateofDOOM
April 26th, 2008, 04:20 AM
I'm glad that we got a little less of Roslin and her ultimate power to hold grudges this week. I actually felt a little bit of the old Roslin somewhere in there today, tempered by her dying paranoia of course. ;)

I'll agree that the whole Roslin/Adama stroll time bit is really showcasing their personal relationship to the crew. They're starting to act like an old married couple everywhere these days, not just in private conversations. I guess since she's dying it doesn't matter anymore what the crew thinks or sees.

Baltar being held up six made me laugh.

MmmmMcKAy
April 26th, 2008, 05:01 AM
Another bizarre and intense episode....bit I loved it.:)

Chief's outburst was very upsetting. I think it was more than grief talking. I think he just decided "to hell with it", I'm going to say what I really feel. And he is right. With so few people left, I'm sure a lot of folks are settling for someone they are not necessarily in love with or meant for.
I also think Chief said those terrible things to provoke Adama. Tyrol was looking for punishment or reprisal or judgement. He screamed at everyone in the hangar to tell him that he frakked up. He wanted that judgement.
Is Tyrol giving up his old identity(ie the viper mechanic) in order to embrace his new one? He was watching Baltar's display at the end too, wasn't he?

The whole Tigh, Six, Ellen show was weird too. And yes, Ellen does look a lot like an older Six in that blonde wig.

Tigh and Chief are really struggling while Tory is so calm and accepting. We need to see more of Anders and how he's doing.

Boy, Roslin can't go a minute without mentioning that she'll be dead soon.;)
I don't like her as much as I did during the mini series and first season. She used to be my favorite, but I find her more scary now than anything.

Looking forward to next week and the Leoban/Kara interaction.:):)

peragrin
April 26th, 2008, 06:33 AM
There are times when a benevolent dictator is far superior to a democracy. things can get done faster and with less debate. There is a reason why Monarchy's last like they do, it is because kings can defend their countries faster than others. Stalin was violent, and treated people very badly. but because of it he was able muster an army of peasants to fend off the German invasion of Stalingrad. A Democracy there would have failed, That region overrun, and the USA's D-day would have never have happened, as the German's wouldn't have fought a war on two fronts.

A wise king in times of peace switches back to democracy. Wise kings though are hard to find.

For the episode I was left feeling confused. i really want tigh, to release Six into Baltar's care. That way Tory, Six, and Baltar can keep each other occupied stabbing each other in the back.

omega431
April 26th, 2008, 07:16 AM
Has Tigh been punishing himself his entire life to feel? Has he needed real unselfish love? And what the frak does Caprica think is going on in this conversation, because she clearly doesn't know he's a cylon.


Yes, you have to be pretty masochistic to be married to Ellen, but in what ever that meant to them they did love each other. And the general idea, you hurt the ones you love or pain is love or something, is shown quite a bit. Kara/Momma Thrace, Kara/Anders, Saul/Ellen, Tyrol/Cally. The fact that if you still care you'll hurt or be hurt by those you love(ie "good to know you still care" after 1 hits the other). Kara/Adm. Adama(6 of 1), Saul/Helo, some others maybe just what the obvious I could think of.

And I agree with Galen in the bar, it may have been different when they were on New Caprica(but the situation was too) but once back on Galactica she was in nagging shrew mode big time. Whether she had some inherent sense of entitlement, or thought due to their violent beginning that she was owed some obedience by him.

That was some demotion Tyrol got from Chief Petty Ofc to Specialist? Am I mistaken? Guess Adama didn't like the reminder that he would have killed 10 Callys if he had too.

Pic
April 26th, 2008, 07:23 AM
Chief's outburst was very upsetting. I think it was more than grief talking. I think he just decided "to hell with it", I'm going to say what I really feel. And he is right. With so few people left, I'm sure a lot of folks are settling for someone they are not necessarily in love with or meant for.
I also think Chief said those terrible things to provoke Adama. Tyrol was looking for punishment or reprisal or judgement. He screamed at everyone in the hangar to tell him that he frakked up. He wanted that judgement.
Is Tyrol giving up his old identity(ie the viper mechanic) in order to embrace his new one? He was watching Baltar's display at the end too, wasn't he?


I don't think Tyrol was watching Baltar, I think they just cut to a scene of him watching his son while Baltar was talking about how everyone's made 'perfect' and 'God loves them'.
His outburst to Adama was fantastic! Mean, nasty (boiled-cabbage-smell -- poor Cally) and showed just how pissed off his is. And, yes, I think he feels like someone should be angry with him or blame him for something (being cylon? he mentions Boomer in his tirade).

Tigh's loss of sanity is much less interesting, although I like Caprica Six's responses - kinda funny how she doesn't know he's a cylon even though she said before that she can "feel they are near".

Tory's loss of sanity goes into the Baltar storyline somewhat and is the least interesting of the three to me in this episode. She was the most interesting final-cylon last week, close behind was Anders, who didn't really have much this week - other than about 2 seconds of catering to Kara.

Roslin's political machinations are annoying me as well, as I think they're intended to ~ her wavering popularity before dying gives Lee a firm purpose on maintaining balance politically. Puts him in a clear position to take the reins instead of Zarek when Roslin dies or becomes unable to perform her duties.
Yes, she reminds us every episode that it will be soon. I thought her reminder this time ~ mentioning to Adama that she liked Cally's funeral ~ was touching. I also like the book club scenes.

Still not much of a fan of the Baltar storyline, but at least he wasn't frakking some new chic this week.

somedude
April 26th, 2008, 07:51 AM
I'm confused, did Adama actually say to the Chief "half-breed Cylon, etc...", or did the Chief imagine it?

rufus789
April 26th, 2008, 08:07 AM
Alright, so i'm going to go out on a limb here but am I the only one that thinks that the prophesied dieing leader could NOT be Roslin? I mean just for arguments sake, Baltar could fill that role also. He was responsible for figuring out the roadmap that Roslin is now following as well as the fact that now TWICE he has become a leader of the people. Granted he isn't dieing yet, but thats the beauty of prophesies, they're so vague that they can be interpreted numerous ways. Head-Six's predictions about her and Baltar's child turn out try, in a sense. Theres no reason why they would throw a loop for us like that, and in a way it would work well with the whole Jesus/Redemption thing going on w/ Baltar right now, although it might be too much of a parallel for the writers.

One other thing, I don't remember where but I remember where I heard this, but I remember that the Cylons themselves are each supposed to represent a part of human nature. Just something to think about when pondering the last Cylon.

My money for the final Cylon is on Zarek. Like I said just above, he is a very strong representation of a part of human nature, both the self serving character he played at the beginning, and the direction he's going now, which I think really has the best interest of others in mind.

rufus789
April 26th, 2008, 08:11 AM
I'm confused, did Adama actually say to the Chief "half-breed Cylon, etc...", or did the Chief imagine it?

pretty sure he imagined it. The admiral didn't have a drink in front of him when he first sat down, and didn't get a drink until after what he said, yet had a drink in his hand when he said "half-breed Cylong"

rufus789
April 26th, 2008, 08:24 AM
One last thing, the prophesy states that the leader will be suffering from a wasting disease. In my book Baltar's insanity (especially if you're looking at him and didn't know about head-six) would constitute a wasting disease.

nckzvnbr
April 26th, 2008, 10:32 AM
I think Tyrol's outburst was part of the mourning process. That being said, I don't think he "settled" for her because Tyrol and Cally had a child together. This is significant because the cylons said they could not reproduce with a human unless there was love involved. So, I think to say that he really hated her simplifies the issue way too much. He is going through the stages (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance).

tgmd
April 26th, 2008, 10:35 AM
One last thing, the prophesy states that the leader will be suffering from a wasting disease. In my book Baltar's insanity (especially if you're looking at him and didn't know about head-six) would constitute a wasting disease.

Baltar is not insane, Head-Six and Head-Baltar are NOT figments of his imagination. That much we know for sure. He's not insane, he's possibly the most normal character in the series.

daniel9
April 26th, 2008, 10:59 AM
how in the world did the chief hear everything baltar was saying? are baltar's services now being broadcasted to the fleet? was that part of lee overturning rosslin's orders? broadcast rights being put in also? least for the galactica

hm wont be soon til baltar gets crucified lol i wonder how rdm's reimagining of that will turn out

omega431
April 26th, 2008, 11:06 AM
how in the world did the chief hear everything baltar was saying? are baltar's services now being broadcasted to the fleet? was that part of lee overturning rosslin's orders? broadcast rights being put in also? least for the galactica

Baltar probably just arranged for it to broadcast. Attention would be draw by the legitimacy he gains having that exec order overturned, seemingly for him. Or it was just a voice over.

----
This is probably just a stupid nitpicky thing but Tigh was show with admiral rank insignia when the 3 were talking in tyrol's quarters. Only seems possibly significant because of their coming into projection abilities. Tyrol looks to Tigh as their leader due to their human world relationship?

nckzvnbr
April 26th, 2008, 11:11 AM
Crucifiction in BSG is probably tying someone to something in a launch bay then slowly depressurizing the bay.

Jumper_One
April 26th, 2008, 12:07 PM
this ep was...strange. I still don't care for Baltar's storyline, the people remind me of the telepaths in s5 of B5 and I hated those guys. Lee is a lot more annoying than I expected him to be but I did like his disgust with Baltar's speech. the scene with the Admiral and the Chief in the bar was a little distubring, why would he talk about his dead wife like that? I was hoping to see the Cylons and Kara but that'll have to wait until next week I guess. overall a mediocre ep imo

anotherquestion
April 26th, 2008, 12:40 PM
Today we tend to think of the Greco-Roman pantheon as something silly. Campy television shows haven't helped this. What Battlestar does wonderfully is makes it a real faith, and the people who believe in it have real and abiding faith. It also brings out a deliciously difficult problem that such societies have with mystery religions. I once had to read a book for a class, The Christians as the Romans Saw Them and Roslin's dilemma really speaks volumes of the problem that arises when a monotheistic religion pops up in a pluralist pagan society. A new god can always be absorbed into the pantheon, but one God forces both believers and non-believers to separate themselves from each other. Something the Colonials really can't very well afford to do. Tricky question.
This excellent observation is only undercut by the splintering and factions we have already seen among the Colonials. They appear to be most human when they are most divided, a fact that Roslin observed in an offhand comment to the Admiral. They have already shown strong divisions when the more fundamentalist Geminese spoke up against allowing one of their own to have an abortion, an incident that Roslin later supported by statute, but made an exception to for the particular individual that sparked the incident. We have seen traces of other factions divided by class, the Tylium ship refiners, for example. Whatever happened to the "compromise" scheme that Roslin was supposed to have accepted from Tyrol ? I don't remember seeing any evidence of the "rotation of duties" among the working class. It has never been referred to again.


I'm not sure I like Roslin's dictatorial bent recently, but really when we are honest she's always had those tendencies for the last year or two and we just haven't seen the push back. Is Lee right? Is Roslin right? Or is it as in most things in government the tragic case where they are both right, and wrong at the same time?

Is democracy a luxury when there are only 39,000 people left? It is received canon (to use religious terms) for Americans to say that democracy even in wartime will work. We had an election in the middle of a civil war (though few today seem to remember how flawed the presidential election of 1864 was). We had an election in the middle of World War II (though few of us seem to think about the social pressures on anyone who would have voted against FDR). But we have never been in the position the colonials are in. It seems to me a bit presumptuous for us to say that democracy is always the right solution.

This continues the slip from Democratic rule made explicit, once again, in the episode about the Tylium ship, where Adama threatened to stand Cally up against the bulkhead and have her shot if Tyrol didn't end the strike, a fact that the Chief sandwiched into his tirade against Cally and Adama in the bar. That episode ended on a very sour note for both Adama and Roslin, and I, for one, am glad to see it being re-examined.
Adama said once that we cannot escape the consequences of the decisions we have made, and that we have to ask ourselves sometimes if we deserve to survive.
Democracies and strong faith-based constituencies clearly aren't the best or most efficient ways to eliminate sectarian violence. Iron fisted dictators like Tito in the old Yugoslavia, or Sadam Hussein in Iraq had their respective populations so afraid of them that the incompatible component factions were held together for decades. When freed from the totalitarian oppressor, long buried hatreds quickly arose, with the inevitable violence and ethnic cleansing that followed.
Nevertheless, it is still hard for me to accept Roslin's proposition that democratic principles are "luxuries" in times of extreme stress. Individual rights and liberties ought to be in place precisely for those times, if they are to have any meaning at all. It is easy to allow full rights to those who agree with you about everything, it only becomes challenging, and very necessary, when you are upholding the rights of someone you vehemently oppose during the times of extreme duress (to ensure that his faction will do the same if the power shifts another way).


Is Tigh projecting Ellen? Perhaps. Is the Chief projecting? Perhaps. I don't know what is going on with the final four, but it is interesting. It is interesting to see them struggle and fight and love and come to terms, or refuse to come to terms.

Has Tigh been punishing himself his entire life to feel? Has he needed real unselfish love? And what the frak does Caprica think is going on in this conversation, because she clearly doesn't know he's a cylon.


Lots of references to the relationship of pleasure and pain in this episode, from Tory's simultaneous plucking and stroking of Baltar, to Saul Tigh's S&M encounter with Caprica Six in the brig. I'm not sure what to make of it. Tory seems to clinging to a Nixonian interpretation of what it means to be a Cylon ("if the President authorizes an action, it cannot be illegal"/If a perfect Cylon throws someone out an airlock, it must be a perfect thing to do).
Caprica Six asserts that pain brings increasing understanding (she must be brilliant by now, having suffered the pain of death and resurrection at least twice (once on Caprica shielding Baltar, and once on New Caprica taking a bullet to the head from Doral)). This, to me, smacks of a flimsy justification for the predilection of the whole Six line toward sadism (as seen from the beatings another Six gave Boomer on Caprica, and the obvious relish the Six model partook in the beatdown of Starbuck in the museum).

nckzvnbr
April 26th, 2008, 12:59 PM
If pain makes something more clear; does death make it perfectly clear. Assuming of course, that death finds its ultimate expression in death.

Mongoletsi
April 26th, 2008, 01:01 PM
...prophesied dieing leader could NOT be Roslin? I mean just for arguments sake, Baltar could fill that role also.
Really good point!

Mongoletsi
April 26th, 2008, 01:06 PM
Whatever happened to the "compromise" scheme that Roslin was supposed to have accepted from Tyrol ? I don't remember seeing any evidence of the "rotation of duties" among the working class. It has never been referred to again.
I was wondering about that too; where are the crew of the Prometheus? Surely they're not flying Vipers on some kinda exchange scheme ;)

Btw, is Helo not CAG now? I take it Tigh is officially EX-O again? Seems a bit weird that Gaeta is there with Helo too, as he'd be EX-O if Tigh went loco again.


Baltar is not insane, Head-Six and Head-Baltar are NOT figments of his imagination. That much we know for sure. He's not insane, he's possibly the most normal character in the series.
He's not insane, but he's far from the most "normal" character in the series!!

Pic
April 26th, 2008, 01:22 PM
how in the world did the chief hear everything baltar was saying? are baltar's services now being broadcasted to the fleet? was that part of lee overturning rosslin's orders? broadcast rights being put in also? least for the galactica

hm wont be soon til baltar gets crucified lol i wonder how rdm's reimagining of that will turn out

Are you referring to my earlier post? I didn't see that Tyrol heard Baltar at all, just that they showed Baltar talking and then switched angles to show Tyrol in his quarters watching his son. We (being the "all-knowing" audience) still heard Baltar speaking because we quickly had the camera angle focused back on Baltar.

Make sense?

Lee didn't overturn Roslin's orders, a vote of the Quorum overturned an executive order which she had written regarding the right of groups to assemble.

SoulReaver
April 26th, 2008, 05:13 PM
Lee is a lot more annoying than I expected him to beow...???
he seems to embody whatever trace of humanity is left in the colonial fleet. perhaps not a paragon of integrity & virtue but manifestly he comes closest. if Baltar's trial didn't suffice, that last scene in the Quorum made it quite clear : while Roslin was pulling another Cain & ranting on about freedom being a luxury whilst basically trying to browbeat Lee with that condescending schoolteacher's tone of hers (that could be summed up into something like "ok kid, I'm the prophet with the coloured snake visions, I've been thru this before & I've like 10000 years experience over you, plus I'm dying so I ain't got time for yer bulls**t"), he understood that the basic tenets of democracy & justice only have a meaning precisely when in the kind of circumstances where they are likely to be compromised. back in the pilot Adama sr. made that speech about the necessity of being "worthy of surviving" yet evidently junior is one of the few who appears to have caught on better than anyone else, even the author himself

to paraphrase the nox, Roslin is "younger" than he is
on the other hand she is being treated for cancer. maybe I'll put it down to the chems and frustration arising from the fact that she has to wear a wig :|



That was rather disturbing. I wonder if it was his grief and anger talking, or how he really feels? :Sit's how he feels deep down, and tbh I wasn't really surprised, all the more so than it was his [future] wife who shot his [real] g/f
in fact I was far more surprised when Tyrol & Cally got married. Cally ? poor choice mate, poor choice. oh well, Tory fixed this (<- ok, that last part was a troll -)

"the best of limited options", lol


There was a theme of pleasure/pain through this ep, with her and Baltar and Six/Tigh.meh, for the Caprica/Tigh part at first I simply put it down to payback for Tigh's "interrogation" techniques back in s3 when he was trying to wrest some intel from her. then I realized it may have been simpler than that, it was just Caprica being bats**t insane ^_^

OfF3nSiV3
April 26th, 2008, 05:38 PM
did Baltar just discover that Tori is a cylon?
in the end, HeadSix looks down on Tori, and Baltar has this shocked look

Zamboni
April 26th, 2008, 05:55 PM
Tigh and Six? :S And :S for good measure. More disturbing than Cavil and Boomer last week.Next week it'll be even more disturbing... It'll me me and Roslin! That's right, move over Admiral! Is it just me or does Roslin look hotter with the new hair? She's too sexy for a cancer patient...

Seriously though, I wonder if the Tigh / Six / Ellen thing has more than just the face value... Is Tigh seeing Ellen because of grief or is there some other reason why Ellen is "projected" onto Six...? Hmmm...

LoneStar1836
April 26th, 2008, 06:26 PM
Interesting episode. One of those that needs more than one viewing in order to be able to glean all the little nuances from it...and one that I will definitely be listening to the commentary.


I wouldn't say that Baltar's story has ever been my favorite, but I do find his transformation over the seasons intriguing. And this episode made for another interesting addition to his evolution.

Course I had to laugh at how HeadSix was manipulating him like a puppet and "holding" him up like that. That poor Marine only following orders was prolly like 'wtf'.




I'm not sure I like Roslin's dictatorial bent recently, but really when we are honest she's always had those tendencies for the last year or two and we just haven't seen the push back. Is Lee right? Is Roslin right? Or is it as in most things in governemtn the tragic case where they are both right, and wrong at the same time.

Is democracy a luxery when there are only 39,000 people left? It is recieved canon (to use religious terms) for Americans to say that democracy even in wartime will work. We had an election in the middle of a civil war (though few today seem to remember how flawed the presidential election of 1864 was). We had an election in the middle of World War II (though few of us seem to think about the social pressures on anyone who would have voted against FDR). But we have never been in the position the colonials are in. It seems ot me a bit presumptious for us to say that democracy is always the right solution.

And the fact that this show can make me think about when and under what circumstances I would support a dictatorship is one of the things I love. Because before tonight I'm not sure I'd have said I'd ever support one. I've said that I thought Roslin was a dictator before, and that while I love her as a character she'd scare me if I lived in her society. Tonight I think I have to change my answer. I would be scared of her if I lived in that society, but I think I would chose her over chaos.

Sign me up for a brand new brown shirt.Well I suppose you could have signed me up for a brown shirt at the end of season one. :D Except I was on the side of Adama and the military.

I really disagreed with Roslin (and Lee) when she played her part in splitting the fleet. I was of the mind that I would rather live under the rule of the military rather than live with democracy and without the military at that point in time in the story. Democracy and freedoms are grand and all, but when you all end up dead, what's the point?

Course like you said, that's one of the things I love about this show...making you evaluate/question your beliefs in certain circumstances...even though circumstances like this are almost unfathomable but interesting to ponder nonetheless.

Roslin's talk with Baltar really laid out her thinking at this phase of her life/political career. I really liked that scene. She knows she is becoming a dictator...which most likely disgusts her...but from her point of view, it has become a necessary evil, and she is going to be a ruthless one in the time she has left.

I can't say I really hate her for doing what she is doing. I don't think she is a bad person doing this for her own gain. I know she has real hatred for Baltar so that hate colors her decision making where he is involved, but she does have a larger goal in mind.

Though I do have to disagree with this particular attempt to curtail the right of assembly. I know she did it with a wink and a nod to everyone else that it would only unofficially apply to Baltar and his followers, but it just seemed like an impractical order to hand down. I agree that a religious war is the last thing the fleet needs, but there has to be another way to go about keeping the peace.


Tory and the one true god. Or Tory and sex. Or oh frak where to start with Tory. Okay, so I find Tory really compelling and damn sexy. Yes, I'm a freak. I love how her sad little robot frequencies seem to be messed up, but at the same time she was still on the same theme of intentional infliction of pain that the Chief and Tigh were. I wonder if Roslin knows she's attending those meetings. I wonder if she was among the women who charged the temple.

I want to see Roslin's reaction when she finds out.I doubt that she knows what Tory is doing but it will be a showdown when she does find out.

I wonder if she will find out through Lee. Lee seemed to notice her there at the end when Baltar was giving his "perfect" speech. Could he think she is there spying on Baltar for the president?




I'll agree that the whole Roslin/Adama stroll time bit is really showcasing their personal relationship to the crew. They're starting to act like an old married couple everywhere these days, not just in private conversations. I guess since she's dying it doesn't matter anymore what the crew thinks or sees. I think at this point in time what's the point in hiding it. People like to gossip and he is the boss so people are really going to gossip about him on his own ship.

Is it an appropriate relationship? In normal circumstances, I'd say no because of the positions of power that they hold, but they aren't exactly facing normal circumstance...facing the end of human existence and all...

Laura is dying, and she really has no one else to share her last days with.

The scenes they have together are touching yet so heartbreaking, especially when they throw in lines like this: "I want you to know what I like". :(:( It's rather depressing. EJO and MM do such a wonderful job.


Interesting pose that they left us with for Kara in this episode. Her laying there on that table and sweating like that with Anders eying her. Reminded me of how we were introduced to Leoben in "Flesh and Blood" with Kara standing there and remarking to Col. Reynolds that it was interesting that they go through all that trouble to appear human. And then we find out that next week Leoben will show up. At least my favorite Cylon is not dead yet. :D

washi
April 26th, 2008, 06:32 PM
This is my first post on these forums. After lurking these BSG threads for some time to see how other people interpreted or appreciated each episode, it dawned on me that that my views on the show are well outside of the norm. So, given that my opinions appear to be largely unrepresented by the userbase here, I thought I'd chime in and represent myself.

Firstly, it seems almost a general consensus that the Baltar storyline this season is an annoyance and unliked, but I'm finding it truly fascinating, especially after this episode did it justice. I admit being less than enthralled when his new mortal deity job description involved hanging around in a dark room and being amicable to a group of morose hippies. But now that he has accepted his new role and taken to it in stride, his new role as venerated preacher has the potential to step into one of the remaining untapped thematic wells in American television: the link between religion and power in the context of war or crisis. Rather than taking religion for granted as something that humans interact with, BSG continues to represent it murkily as something manifested from human interaction. Furthermore, the growth in Baltar's character is now undeniable, and probably one of the most consistent and gratifying examples of character development in BSG.

And on the other hand, whereas most people seem engaged by the cylon-perspective scenes, I find them to be a completely bland waste of time. I think one of the reasons I enjoyed this episode so much was their complete absence. This final season should be about focus, culmination and convergence - going off on a tangent with the Cylons is just about the worst thing you could do.

And, whereas most people seemed to feel that last week's episode was really good, and yet this episode has received a warm reception, I'm of the reverse opinion. Last week's episode was poorly written, characterised, cheaply directed and wholly unfulfilling. This week's episode, despite the fact that I still resent Jane Espenson for her butchering of Buffy in season 6, was probably my favourite of the season so far. The characters were nailed perfectly there was a good balance of plot development, intimate character scenes, and some good special effects. I agree with most people that Lee's smugness last week wasn't quite right, but this week his character was portrayed as it should be - a steadfast defender of righteousness, with a dangerous niavity. I thought his actions this week, as well as Roslyn's comments regarding him, is the first convincing bit of continuity from the friction seen between them in Crossroads.

And speaking of Roslyn, this was the first episode all season that I didn't find her presence in either redundant or annoying. Although her scene with Adama in episode 2 was profound, her descent into the idealism of control and secrecy was never convincing - until now. In her discussion with Adama, as well as her talk with Baltar, I could genuinely feel her sense of desperation and anxiety - and then I understood that this ideological transformation is not sinister but is born from a weary desire to do good. I believe her when she says the right thing is sometimes a luxury. Lee and his newfound cohorts seem to think they can have political utopia when society is on the verge of ruin.

As you can probably tell, I genuinely appreciate Lee. In a series with so much chaos, it's a blessing to have a character you can latch on to and feel you know. Lee is that person. His firm ethical beliefs have always been present in Battlestar Galatica, but it isn't until now, when other characters are victims to ambiguity, that his unyielding ethicality shines.

Chief Tyrol's confused outbursts were highlights of the episode, and I feel they were portrayed very believably. It would seem that, more than losing Cally, with her death he's lost himself. Just as her identity as a pilot was holding Starbuck together in season 3, I fear that the Chief's (warranted) dismissal from his post will only facilitate his crisis.

This was a really strong episode that did not feel like filler at all - while last week’s did.

wilsan
April 26th, 2008, 06:43 PM
Next week it'll be even more disturbing... It'll me me and Roslin! That's right, move over Admiral! Is it just me or does Roslin look hotter with the new hair? She's too sexy for a cancer patient.

I acually expected Roslin to pass away in this episode, her strenth has been deteriorating for some time now. I suspect that she won't be around that much longer, more than likely in this half of the season.

daniel9
April 26th, 2008, 06:59 PM
what did tyrol project in this ep? everyone is saying he projected something. i know baltar projected head six, and tigh projected ellen, so what did tyrol project?

i wonder which religion this bsg is following? the old one followed mormonism. what about this one? i cant see count iblis making this baltar do evil deeds. or getting in a position to use mindcontrol on dee(apollo's wife), i also dont see baltar getting a fleet to muster against the colonials or the cylons since he loves both of them, i wonder if bsg will follow the comic of when they got to earth and meet adam and eve and a mysterious evil being anubus who is connected to iblis in someway.

baltar seems to be preaching satanism more than christianity. since its lucifer who loves and embraces sin

Briangate78
April 26th, 2008, 07:20 PM
This episode was not as good as last week's episode, but it was still a very interesting episode. I really think the Baltar thing is getting way too deep. They must of dug that rabbit whole straight through Wonderland.

I really like Chief's character. I hope he does not become a bad and evil Cylon like Tory. I hope he becomes more humane like Caprica or Athena. Yes, Caprica is humane, she wants a world where Cylons and humans can co-exsist, Sadly both species are not ready for that and may never be. I think we are starting to see that some Cylons like Caprica want to live with humans and interact, while the other models want to either control the humans or destroy them all.

somedude
April 26th, 2008, 07:31 PM
My feeling is that Tigh is back to being the XO, Helo is the CAG when he's on the Galactica- when he's not on board, maybe Redwing is the CAG?

LoneStar1836
April 26th, 2008, 07:51 PM
Firstly, it seems almost a general consensus that the Baltar storyline this season is an annoyance and unliked, but I'm finding it truly fascinating, especially after this episode did it justice. I admit being less than enthralled when his new mortal deity job description involved hanging around in a dark room and being amicable to a group of morose hippies. Welcome. :)

Well I have to say that until this episode, Baltar's story was not exactly my highlight of the first two episodes this season so I wasn't really missing him in last week's ep.



And on the other hand, whereas most people seem engaged by the cylon-perspective scenes, I find them to be a completely bland waste of time. I think one of the reasons I enjoyed this episode so much was their complete absence. This final season should be about focus, culmination and convergence - going off on a tangent with the Cylons is just about the worst thing you could do. I have to disagree. They have been as integral to the story that is BSG as the humans so some focus does need to be on them. Granted I grew somewhat tiresome of them last season, especially when Baltar was with them on the basestar, but their evolution is just as important to the story so we need some resolution there as well, and this civil war of theirs is an interesting turn for them, imo. Not that I want a lot of time devoted to them, but they need a resolution as well.


I agree with most people that Lee's smugness last week wasn't quite right, but this week his character was portrayed as it should be - a steadfast defender of righteousness, with a dangerous niavity. I thought his actions this week, as well as Roslyn's comments regarding him, is the first convincing bit of continuity from the friction seen between them in Crossroads.

{snip} Lee and his newfound cohorts seem to think they can have political utopia when society is on the verge of ruin.

As you can probably tell, I genuinely appreciate Lee. In a series with so much chaos, it's a blessing to have a character you can latch on to and feel you know. Lee is that person. His firm ethical beliefs have always been present in Battlestar Galatica, but it isn't until now, when other characters are victims to ambiguity, that his unyielding ethicality shines.I've always liked Lee, but I have disagreed with his actions/stances on more than one occasion, while I have agreed with others. He is very principled in his beliefs concerning democracy and freedom. While I can respect him for that and for what his character brings to the show, like you said he has a dangerous naivete in some of his decisions, imo.

Course I can't fault him in this episode. Not too sure I agreed with Roslin's order to limit freedom of assembly, but not necessarily because of her intentions for wanting to limit it. Lee brought his concern to a vote, and evidently others agreed with him.


Chief Tyrol's confused outbursts were highlights of the episode, and I feel they were portrayed very believably. It would seem that, more than losing Cally, with her death he's lost himself. Just as her identity as a pilot was holding Starbuck together in season 3, I fear that the Chief's (warranted) dismissal from his post will only facilitate his crisis.You are probably very right. Tyrol has nothing left to hold onto other than his position as Chief, and now that he has been busted down to Specialist, he'll probably go off the deep end.

I think he just wanted to vent at Adama not really believing that Adama could really afford to loose him and replace him like that. He looked rather shocked to me...though I guess that could also be attributed to his outburst about Cally, yelling at Adama, or both. He just didn't look too relieved about being demoted.


This was a really strong episode that did not feel like filler at all - while last week’s did.I would call this week's episode much stronger, but I don't think last week's was filler. It wasn't all that great, but it did progress the story, imo. This one had some great character introspection.


:)

LoneStar1836
April 26th, 2008, 08:01 PM
I really like Chief's character. I hope he does not become a bad and evil Cylon like Tory. I hope he becomes more humane like Caprica or Athena. Yes, Caprica is humane, she wants a world where Cylons and humans can co-exsist, Sadly both species are not ready for that and may never be. I think we are starting to see that some Cylons like Caprica want to live with humans and interact, while the other models want to either control the humans or destroy them all.That was kind of the whole point of them going to New Caprica. Caprica and Boomer wanted to try to co-exist with the humans, but the others were not having any of that so that experiment failed badly.

And Leoben seems solely fixated on Kara.

dec55
April 26th, 2008, 09:50 PM
Remember it was Boomer that got Caprica 6 to go against the Cylons on Caprica.
But after seeing Athena become a beloved member of the BSG crew, and becoming a mother to Hera, Boomer went hard core Cylon...and didn't want to have anything to do with Humans. I find it ironic that Tyrol finds himself yearning for Boomer. When Boomer finds out that the Chief is a fellow Cylon, it will be fascinating to see if she changes sides again, or gets Tyrol to come with her to join the Cylon empire.




And on the other hand, whereas most people seem engaged by the cylon-perspective scenes, I find them to be a completely bland waste of time. I think one of the reasons I enjoyed this episode so much was their complete absence. This final season should be about focus, culmination and convergence - going off on a tangent with the Cylons is just about the worst thing you could do.
.

:lol This eppy was full of Cylons and their point of view....Chief,Tori,Saul and 6.....

anotherquestion
April 27th, 2008, 01:10 AM
Is anyone else getting tired of the Dylan Four's "flashes" of unreality?

First with Saul Tigh's vision of shooting Admiral Adama in the head.

Next with Tyrol's imagined retort from Adama about being the father of a "halfbreed" cylon.

and Finally, Tigh's vision of Caprica Six as Ellen.

What's next, for Pete's sake ? Will Tory flash on flushing Roslin out of an airlock? Will Anders conjure up a Strarbuck/Leoban conjugal vision?

These all seem like "cheap shots" to me, like a hand reaching out from the grave in a slasher movie, something to make the viewers "jump". It's manipulative and for "shock value" only.

As if these visions weren't enough, we still have Baltar stil seeing "inner Baltar and inner Sixes", Caprica Six occasionally seeing "inner Baltars", Roslin intermittently tripping out with visions of the opera house, Lee Adama getting that sinking sensation in an underwater vision (in Resurrection Ship) when suferring from oxygen starvation, D'Anna having epiphanies from her near death experiences, and Starbuck taking a Kubrick trip in the maelstrom. Beyond that we have seen that each skinjob has the inherent ability to "project" a vision of reality to completely mask their "ordinary" surroundings.

Enough is enough. Reality is bleak enough without some of the darker hallucinations appearing to almost every major character in the series.

One of the major subtexts of the series appears to be exploring what it means to be truly human (or truly Cylon). Apparently recurring psychoses make up a major component.

Dusk
April 27th, 2008, 03:24 AM
Meh.

Enough ENOUGH with the religious overtones, I didn't park my ass in front of the plasma to listen to church sermons and holy waffling.

I have truly lost all interest in Baltar now, once the adorable lab geek with a taste for women is now just a self-righteous messiah wannabe. And Lee... Lee Lee Lee, please make your way to the nearest airlock and kindly flush flush flush. These over zealous character changes are shaking the series a little. Forget wondering if they will ever make it to Earth, the question is will they be sane enough to appreciate it in the end?

daniel9
April 27th, 2008, 06:50 AM
lol i wonder why admiral adama hasnt seen any visions

CellarDwellar
April 27th, 2008, 08:30 AM
This episode, by far, freaked me out.

Baltar is now Jesus.
Tory killed Cally and the Chief has blown a circuit.
Chief got demoted.
Sol is losing his mind.
Six was beating the junk out of Sol.
Old Religion > Baltar.

Kind of...crazy, ne? :/

The next episode looks entertaining. Leoben finds Kara, Athena and Helo freak out, nobody wants to do what she says anymore. And it sort of bothers me; I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, merely because she came back from the fraking dead to begin with, so why not keep going along with the crazy train.

I'm going to put my money on Helo trusting Kara's word more than he does Athena's in the end. I mean, there's a huge difference between lovers and friends, and Helo's always trusted Kara's instincts. Which have pulled her through every time, so far. Besides Anders.

Marrying Anders for safe measures from Apollo still makes me giggle.

I still want more Lee/Kara, merely because their relationship had the most depth to it. Athena/Helo is sort of old and distant now, with the baby kidnap and all. D: But I don't think Mistah Apollo has any time for the loveboat crew anymore, since Roslin is dead set on tearing him a new one and shooting him out an airlock before her wig becomes incapable of hiding her cancer.

I actually want Roslin to die now. The whole, CANCER IS BACK! thing drives me crazy. I have my finger pointed dead on her not being a cylon, but a power-hungry scared old woman who's going to die before the end of the season wanting to have a significant death, rather than a meaningless one like the rest of the fleet (in the words of Admiral Adama himself).

You can only use the cancer ploy once. =(

Think they're only releasing 10 episodes this year too. So far as SCI-FI has given hint to, nevertheless; more aggravation on my side, since I had to wait a year to see season 4 to begin with, and now I have to wait another year to see the other half. Not that season 3 wasn't enough of a turn off from the series to begin with. Love it or hate it season, right?

I hated the majority of it. /sigh

Pharaoh Atem
April 27th, 2008, 08:47 AM
i'm so happy racetrack was ok i thought for sure she was dead :(

dec55
April 27th, 2008, 09:54 AM
I'm going to put my money on Helo trusting Kara's word more than he does Athena's in the end.

It may be Athena that starts the mutiny and then stops it. Seeing in the previews that her sisters are on board. Athena and the Cylons that come on board are all pro human. And both want to see earth....


i'm so happy racetrack was ok i thought for sure she was dead :(
It's kinda funny they survived....in the FX....the whole drivers cockpit was crushed and flattened.
Both pilots must have jumped to the back in a split second....:lol

Briangate78
April 27th, 2008, 09:56 AM
Meh.

Enough ENOUGH with the religious overtones, I didn't park my ass in front of the plasma to listen to church sermons and holy waffling.

I have truly lost all interest in Baltar now, once the adorable lab geek with a taste for women is now just a self-righteous messiah wannabe. And Lee... Lee Lee Lee, please make your way to the nearest airlock and kindly flush flush flush. These over zealous character changes are shaking the series a little. Forget wondering if they will ever make it to Earth, the question is will they be sane enough to appreciate it in the end?

It's gone over the top with the religion story arc with Baltar. I am more interested in the road to Earth, the fued between the cylons, what will happen to the four revealed Cylons, and finally who is the last cylon model.

LoneStar1836
April 27th, 2008, 10:41 AM
Is anyone else getting tired of the Dylan Four's "flashes" of unreality?

{snip}

These all seem like "cheap shots" to me, like a hand reaching out from the grave in a slasher movie, something to make the viewers "jump". It's manipulative and for "shock value" only.

As if these visions weren't enough, we still have Baltar stil seeing "inner Baltar and inner Sixes", Caprica Six occasionally seeing "inner Baltars", Roslin intermittently tripping out with visions of the opera house, Lee Adama getting that sinking sensation in an underwater vision (in Resurrection Ship) when suferring from oxygen starvation, D'Anna having epiphanies from her near death experiences, and Starbuck taking a Kubrick trip in the maelstrom. Beyond that we have seen that each skinjob has the inherent ability to "project" a vision of reality to completely mask their "ordinary" surroundings.

Enough is enough. Reality is bleak enough without some of the darker hallucinations appearing to almost every major character in the series. No. :P:)

I've never had a problem with the characters having these kind of flashes. I think they help visually portray what the characters are feeling rather than going into a lot of exposition. I quite appreciate them.

I suppose I don't find them shocking. Like with Tigh shooting Adama, it all seemed dreamlike to me...plus there was no way they would off Adama that early so I didn't go "wow! what was that". I thought it was a great way to portray what kind of fear Tigh was experiencing after his new revelation.




lol i wonder why admiral adama hasnt seen any visionsActually he has. That episode last year that involved his wedding anniversary...talking to the dead ex-wife.

CellarDwellar
April 27th, 2008, 02:53 PM
It may be Athena that starts the mutiny and then stops it. Seeing in the previews that her sisters are on board. Athena and the Cylons that come on board are all pro human. And both want to see earth....

Very true. I guess we'll just have to wait until Friday/Saturday again ;p

Wonder how Sam is going to take Leoben hitting on Kara, and her (most likely) not pushing it off this time. Since, you know, they have sort of a better connection this time around.

wwlh
April 28th, 2008, 04:41 AM
My thoughts on the Chief's outburst (and I'm sorry if I missed it if someone said the same thing already)..

I think that the Chief was doing ANYTHING he could to hang on to who he feels that he is/was. He frakked up the repairs on the raptor, almost killed two pilots, and was patted on the head and told to take it easy - all while begging to be told that he screwed up. He has Tory telling him that anything he does is perfect - which goes against everything he believes to be true. So after the Raptor crash he starts thinking about everything else...especially how Callie stayed with him after he beat the tar out of her. He just wants to be plain old Galen - and now it seems that his life is out of his hands because no matter what he does...he comes out OK in the end. I think he blew up at Adama because THAT is what he couldn't take anymore...and I think he was finally relieved when Adama busted him and kicked him off the ship - it was his way of taking back control of his life..

But, then again, that might just be me.....

entil2001
April 28th, 2008, 04:19 PM
Jane Espenson, the writer for this episode, was on the writing staff of the Joss Whedon cult favorite “Firefly”, a series that is held in high regard among the Galactica production crew. In one of the episodes (“War Stories”), a peculiar philosophy is mentioned. In short, the idea is: by torturing someone to his or her very limits, that person’s true self will emerge. That episode of “Firefly” immediately came to mind while watching the story unfold.

Because this is largely a transitional piece, the key to success was character exploration and, in turn, a philosophical theme. Almost everyone involved in this episode was tested by some kind of pain or strife. Tyrol, for example, was tested by the knowledge that his wife’s “suicide” was anything but (though he doesn’t seem sure), and the real man who emerges is not a pleasant sight. Tyrol’s growing numbness could leave him vulnerable to Tory’s manipulation.

Tory has done a fairly good job of turning herself into an agent of pain, using it to push Baltar’s buttons (rather effectively, I might add). Though it’s not explicitly stated, it wouldn’t be shocking to discover that she’s manipulating Tigh, Tyrol, and Roslin with equal deftness. As noted in the review for the previous episode, she is the one “new” Cylon who has embraced the benefits of her newly-revealed nature. There has always been an amoral aspect to Tory’s character, but the moment of revelation has seemingly stripped away some of her internal checks and balances.

Tigh, like Tyrol, is struggling with the knowledge of his true nature, and his conversation with Caprica Six is revealing. I’m not sure I was completely sold on her actions and reactions in this episode; the characterization felt “off”. Tigh’s guilt and self-loathing came through very clearly, but her dialogue choices were too “perfect” for the occasion. Even so, this provided an interesting parallel between her and Tory; they both act upon others to help them “know themselves”.

In addition to Tory’s possible influence, Roslin’s own recognition of her impending death has pushed her towards an even more fascist mindset. Roslin has always been an interesting character, because she has been willing to subvert the popular masses in the name of their survival. Her decision to stand up to Adama in the first season was all about saving Humanity, and as she says in this episode, as time runs out, she’s less and less concerned about the opinions of others.

So Roslin is more than happy to change the law to frustrate Gaius Baltar and paint Lee Adama as naïve for questioning it. Adama, having a rather flexible definition of morality himself (particularly when it comes to his “family”), doesn’t disagree. The episode itself suggests that Roslin might have been right to be concerned about Baltar, because the result of his trial is a renewed sense of confidence. Even Lee seemed concerned with the consequences of his decision.

Ironically, I’m still convinced that the survival of Humanity is through a blending with the Cylons. Baltar and his monotheistic cult could very likely be a part of that movement, along with Kara’s search for Earth, and that puts Roslin as more of an impediment to survival than a benefit. Yet in very many ways, they never would have gotten so far without her, and it’s quite possible that she’s the final Cylon, acting from unseen and unrealized influences.

The episode gave me enough to enjoy on a philosophical level that the minor character and style choices didn’t bother me as much as I initially thought. From a style perspective, I thought the arrangement of the episode, simply from the editing aspect, didn’t always work for me. Taken with some of the dialogue, it left me feeling a bit bothered in a very vague sense. The transitional nature of the story also didn’t help. But as a fan of shows like “Lost”, sometimes all I need is a good philosophical hook, and this episode had that in excess.


John Keegan
Reprinted with permission
Original source: c. Critical Myth, 2008
All rights reserved
Link: http://www.criticalmyth.com

Stormtrooper
April 28th, 2008, 06:03 PM
It's kinda funny they survived....in the FX....the whole drivers cockpit was crushed and flattened.
Both pilots must have jumped to the back in a split second....:lol

True. I wonder if they changed the script, but didn't have time to change the fx... Very good episode nonetheless. Bring on the revelations! :)

Lady Snow
April 29th, 2008, 12:42 AM
I have truly lost all interest in Baltar now, once the adorable lab geek with a taste for women is now just a self-righteous messiah wannabe. And Lee... Lee Lee Lee, please make your way to the nearest airlock and kindly flush flush flush. These over zealous character changes are shaking the series a little. Forget wondering if they will ever make it to Earth, the question is will they be sane enough to appreciate it in the end?

emphasis mine

I fail to see how these are "over zealous character changes." Lee's always been an idealist and has always stood up for what he believes is right. Baltar's always been a self-serving self-considered-pariah. The series is finally exploring these facets of their characters in different contexts - not for the first time ever.

ToasterOnFire
April 29th, 2008, 08:48 AM
Some things from me:

-Tyrol stole the ep this week, both with his eulogy and his rant in the bar. I saw his rant containing some truth - I do believe that he loved Boomer but settled for Cally. That's not to say that he didn't love Cally, just that it was a more resigned and shallower love. I got the sense that his anger was less over marrying Cally and more over the confinement and lack of choices in the RTF. It wasn't the life any of them had expected, and it's perfectly understandable for them to rant about the unfairness of it all.

-Roslin's wig makes her look like Cain, and I hear that choice was intentional. Scary foreshadowing there. She still knows how to stick it to Baltar. I was touched and saddened to see her talk about her likely funeral with Adama and watch him carry her bag.

-While I agree more with Lee than Roslin this week, I still find his idealism and grandstanding grating. Yes, he just had to be there to save Baltar from the military. Savior Lee, we get it. You're high up on my choice for Fifth, buddy.

-Baltar as Jesus is getting way too blatant for me, especially this week with his take on the moneychangers. I'm somewhat interested in the consequences of his "you're perfect just the way you are" philosophy, but I still find his storyline slow. It doesn't help that I find his followers dumb and malleable.

-Still not sure what dictates Baltar seeing head!Six vs. head!Baltar, and I hope there's a good explanation coming down the road.

-Tory has found an excuse for her apathy in "I'm not bad, I'm just programmed that way." I don't think things are going to end well with her. Did Lee see her with Baltar at the end? I doubt Madam Pres would be too happy with that info.

-Tigh changes diapers, heh.

-The interactions between Six and Tigh were simultaneously touching and scary. Those visions of his wife - creepy as hell. On Letterman Trisha did quip that one reason to watch s4 was to see her naked, followed by Michael saying the same. But I never thought we might see both of them naked...together. :eek: :D

-I'm also surprised that Racetrack and her co didn't bite it after seeing the special effects. I'm half-expecting someone to die in every ep from now until the end.

CellarDwellar
April 29th, 2008, 07:22 PM
Cut some of my replies down, but didn't re-read; really long, enjoy xD
If I repeat something, it's because I'm tired.


Because this is largely a transitional piece, the key to success was character exploration and, in turn, a philosophical theme. Almost everyone involved in this episode was tested by some kind of pain or strife.

Really, it's about time they broke down. I don't know why they haven't already; their families are gone, their home planets are gone, the lives they used to know completely vanished. And when they think it's okay again, that they can start all over again...oh, hey, look, cylons!

I think any human being in their right mind would begin to break down, piece by piece, by the downfalls, and all the death, all the stress, all the tragedy, all the losses, all the sadness. Viper pilots, more so; they risk their lives, every single day, with nawt a thank you or a pat on the back. Just more near death, just more death, just more sorrow.

Don't you think you'd eventually become like them?


Adama, having a rather flexible definition of morality himself (particularly when it comes to his “family”), doesn’t disagree. The episode itself suggests that Roslin might have been right to be concerned about Baltar, because the result of his trial is a renewed sense of confidence. Even Lee seemed concerned with the consequences of his decision.

The consequences of his decision is continuing with the path of what he originally chose when he saved the man from the military: justice. If he wishes to uphold such a justice, he has to keep following the path he chose when he stepped into the court room, full of bravado and mojo.

Quite frankly, the look Lee gave Baltar and his followers when they swarmed over to help Baltar after getting his face smacked in with a gun confirms such a suggestion. Even the one after the grand speech given by Jesus Baltar himself, all just confirms now Lee's conflicting emotions.


Ironically, I’m still convinced that the survival of Humanity is through a blending with the Cylons. Baltar and his monotheistic cult could very likely be a part of that movement, along with Kara’s search for Earth, and that puts Roslin as more of an impediment to survival than a benefit. Yet in very many ways, they never would have gotten so far without her, and it’s quite possible that she’s the final Cylon, acting from unseen and unrealized influences.

Much agreed, although the original efforts were very double edged. It seems the Cylons were unsure of how to go about it, incapable (or just closing their ears to) of finding other paths other than the war headed one they had been trooping down to begin with.

This is almost an obvious choice, but so is so many; people want a surprise, I want proper development. Although I would much rather a Dee Adama coming up from no where, making Leoben a maniacal prophet, being the fifth and final cylon that had been so close the entire time, and even under Lee's skin, or a Zak Adama back from the dead, I can see Roslin pulling off a very good final cylon. If they get the right writer doing the script for that episode, of course; at least, before the put us on a year hold, they'll be telling us who on earth the final cylon is.

Nevertheless! Rambling. The idea of Jesus Baltar, which very much so reflects on the Catholic religion of our own world, seems to be a repeat of history. The Greek and Roman mythology was wiped out, more or less, by other religions; mainly, Catholic, which followers the law of One God. Disregard the fairy tales and all, and think to the tale of Jesus; does Baltar not fit the bill? Wonder how that one will turn out.

My thoughts on Kara's expedition are hardly much right now. After a Leoben brain invasion, and her dying, with Lee's very solemn and emotionless reply to the supposed love of his life dying before his very eyes, I haven't got too much of an opinion on our dear resurrected Starbuck. She came back, she throws a fit, is confused as heck, raises a gun to the dying wig lady, and everyone is angry. Even wig lady is angry at the Admiral for giving whom he considers family a CHANCE. So, how that turns out, who knows; I do believe she will be the one to find earth, not Roslin. And dying inside of your head, is also a case of death; mental suffering. And prophecies are what you make of them; apparently, Kara already died in specific terms. Maybe dying meant to die, one destined to die, with rebirth? Who knows.


emphasis mine

I fail to see how these are "over zealous character changes." Lee's always been an idealist and has always stood up for what he believes is right. Baltar's always been a self-serving self-considered-pariah. The series is finally exploring these facets of their characters in different contexts - not for the first time ever.

Quite frankly, this is true, in it's own dialect. I would have liked to see Lee dissapear somewhere in the seasons, but for a long time he's been, more or less, the face of the show. As I would have liked more Helo, or Felix, development rather than going crazy on a couple characters, I never got it, and became satisfied with the hot-headed two-timer with the call sign after my favorite Roman god.

But it is slightly an over-zealous character change. He never chased after Roslin so harshly, nor do I think it is like him to abandon the pilot seat when their other best pilot is off chasing stars with Helo, Athena, Felix, Anders, and Leoben. Although his method of pursuing this assaults on her hidden changes to the legislature and private conducting of law, I can't see him turning his back on the people to make it better for them amongst the ships. It's just not like Lee.

As for Jesus Baltar. I don't think he's doing it all for himself; if it had really mattered, he would have turned around on the guards and found a new home to stay in to prevent bodily harm. Although Head6 seemed to prevent that transition, I don't think his speech was exactly...how do you say, personal? Too much emotion, too much connection; too much Head6 corruption. He's also dog tagging after the Miss Pres. to investigate on the Sons of Ares, but that could also be for personal gain.

In the end, it's really how you look at it.



-While I agree more with Lee than Roslin this week, I still find his idealism and grandstanding grating. Yes, he just had to be there to save Baltar from the military. Savior Lee, we get it. You're high up on my choice for Fifth, buddy.

I completely, and utterly, agree. There are so many weird things going on with that whole ideology; if only they knew that Baltar had actually caused the original downfall, and that without this Baltar they all know as the lab rat making love to thin air and swooning looks at an imaginary figure, none of it would have ever happened. Nobody would have died. So really, being executed for laying down the resistance and crying on a couch about Cylons being incompetent with co-existance doesn't really support his original stance.

Ahhh, too bad that hasn't popped out of the bag yet. Or at least, not that i know of; correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it has. I do zone out during Baltar parts, and I fell asleep during the whole speech of justice episode.


-Baltar as Jesus is getting way too blatant for me, especially this week with his take on the moneychangers. I'm somewhat interested in the consequences of his "you're perfect just the way you are" philosophy, but I still find his storyline slow. It doesn't help that I find his followers dumb and malleable.

That's how it normally is, with religion. (I'm an atheist, so excuse my blatant bluntness.) I find it sort of sickening to watch them swoon over him and assume he's a god, with one little miracle. Although, I'd be a little curious if a child sick to death with an incurable disease is suddenly okay, but I would not throw away all other possibilities to stand in awe of him.

Getting beat up by followers of the Old Religion is so not worth praying to Jesus Baltar.


-Tory has found an excuse for her apathy in "I'm not bad, I'm just programmed that way." I don't think things are going to end well with her. Did Lee see her with Baltar at the end? I doubt Madam Pres would be too happy with that info.

That sort of info would make me laugh. I would fall off my couch, laughing, much like I have many other times when Roslin has gotten that little tidbit of information then pistol whipped Admiral Adama to get what she wants due to unsettling news. I could say it another way? But hey.

I'm not entirely sure they did. I couldn't put my money on it, as that episode was a little...ehhh at that part. Not too interested in a Tory/Baltar fest. Would have been more interesting if it was Dee/Baltar, and Lee walked in, of course. But otherwise.

As for her excuse: It's a bad one. Tory has always been that sort of off character, disregarding the whole cylon junk. And in reality, there is no programming; all of the cylons are capable of developing different ways, as it is shown between Sharron, Athena, Caprica...you get the idea. So really, it's false-hearted and moronic. I don't like her being one of the four, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone shot HER out of the airlock.


-The interactions between Six and Tigh were simultaneously touching and scary. Those visions of his wife - creepy as hell. On Letterman Trisha did quip that one reason to watch s4 was to see her naked, followed by Michael saying the same. But I never thought we might see both of them naked...together. :eek: :D

That's terrifying. Sol? Naked? With Six? x____x! No thank you!

I found that part a little...hm. How do you say? Bleh. It's hard to explain why I was blinking crazily, as if trying to get rid of it, when she was beating the bologna out of our poor old alcoholic wife-killer, but to go as far as to make him hallucinate that she's Ellen and have her kiss him in the end? Too much for me, too much.

Sol has always aggravated me. But that's just how his character is supposed to be; that drunk who keeps being lugged around by Adama, the slightly useless old man sending off suicide bombers to blow up Jesus Baltar. I like him for that though. Sort of a love/hate there.


-I'm also surprised that Racetrack and her co didn't bite it after seeing the special effects. I'm half-expecting someone to die in every ep from now until the end.

In the graphics, the top got completely flattened, it flipped over, and the front was totaled. Fire was everywhere, it looked like chunks of the raptor went flying every which way and a mass of sparks due to collision pretty much sums up that scene. Not that much damage showed once they flipped to the mid-repair scene, and they were completely, COMPLETELY, untouched, uniforms and all. Which surprised me; even if Racetrack had suddenly been beamed to the back of the raptor, there should have been some sort of damage to them; the inside should have been a bit of a mess, which that much outer damage.

But not a scratch.

Racetrack is just that chick Lee confused with Starbuck; other than that, she's not a major character (so far as we know! :cool:) thusly her death wouldn't strike me as that important, or major.

Mongoletsi
May 1st, 2008, 03:40 PM
head!Six vs. head!Baltar
I wish people would stop writing that.


-Tigh changes diapers, heh.
Aye, funny. But... don't you think (apart from when he's with Caprica 6) he's the most human of the lot? His visits to Caprica 6 just wouldn't happen, wouldn't be allowed to continue, and would have been reported.

Darth_Bicyclist
May 2nd, 2008, 11:53 PM
Great ep, but I have a couple of minor quibbles with Jane's overall excellent writing:

First, the lines from the book, Searider Falcon:

"I wasn't afraid to die. I was afraid of the emptiness that I felt inside. I couldn't feel anything. And that's what scared me."

Is this Adama's idea of something to read to someone facing a terminal illness to cheer them up? Yeesh. Count me out of Bill's Bedtime Story club.

I also have an issue with this line of dialog by Baltar:

"The time has come to make a stand."

Okay, that's a good line. But then it's followed by this:

"And that time is now."

Uh, yeah, not so good. I mean, if the time has come, then the time is now, by definition. When else would the time be, if it's come? Or to paraphrase Hillel, if not now, when?

This post brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department. Now I'm off to use the ATM machine....

DB

Bruman
May 3rd, 2008, 01:09 PM
It was definitely an interesting episode with Tyrol. He's really going through a lot with a) death of wife Cally, b) questioning what he knows about himself now that he's a cylon, c) extra work as a single dad.

As for his role in the raptor crash, he must be wondering if he's freaked out because of Cally, or if his cylon part made him do that. I don't think it's the latter, but *he* might understandably think that.

BTW, I was saying to myself "please don't kill racetrack, please!" as the raptor crashed. I like her a lot, although she's massively underused. I am very happy she's still here, though I must admit that I can't figure out how she could have survived a crash like that.

Did anyone else read the Tyrol-Adama exchange in the bar as perhaps deliberately provoked by Tyrol to get himself thrown off the job so as not to endanger anyone else? I could understand Tyrol's anger, but I thought notching it up like that might have been a deliberate thing to get that result.

And Adama's comments about "cylon half breed child" were pretty obviously imagined by Tyrol as far as I can tell. Adama would have to know that Tyrol was a cylon in order to say that, and even so, it would be out of character for him to refer to Tyrol's son like that - it's not how he refers to Hera, for example.

Finally, there's Tori. It's clear that Tori refers to Cally's death as a suicide, and the implication is that she's covering for herself. But one wonders if maybe even *she* doesn't know her role in the death. Boomer didn't know she was setting explosives in season 1's "Water" episode; maybe Tori doesn't think she killed Cally because her brain deleted the memory. Personally, I think it's more likely she's covering up, but I can't dismiss that possibility.

Matt G
May 5th, 2008, 03:20 PM
1. Interesting...implications of Tory acting rogue last week and Tigh playing nice. Conflicting counsel on how to deal with Cally's death don't mean anything though.

2. I was sure Racetrack was a scratch - apparantly not but I really don't like the idea of the Chief losing the plot to that extent!

3. Lee is being a PITA for Roslin but with mixed results. Now he has to work out how to deal with Baltar!

4. Tigh and Six - what the hell is going on here? It would make more sense if Six knew he was a Cylon!

Very good ep but next week sounds more interesting.

daniel9
May 9th, 2008, 09:49 AM
podcast is up

Dusk
January 5th, 2009, 02:40 AM
The religious drivel really pulled down the episode for me. For a moment towards the end there you'd be forgiven for thinking you were watching Battlestar Jerusalem. In fact, the only thing I have liked Lee do this season is pull that face at the end of the sermon with Baltar.

Six pulling up Baltar is one of the most intriguing moments of the show. I'm itching to know what the story is there.