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What exactly does the Ark of Truth make you believe?

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    What exactly does the Ark of Truth make you believe?

    I think that instead of making you believe something, it makes you become a rational person. That's why it "can only be programmed to make people believe what is true" and why Adria can't use it to convince everyone to follow her. The Ark can't be limited to indoctrinating only that which is true (how would it determine whether its own contents are true?). And people who think rationally would realize that it's wrong to forcefully convert people and that even if the Ori were as powerful as gods, it would be wrong to support them.

    It's not so much that it makes you believe in something but that it teaches you to reason and think like the original Alterans, who were scientists and believed in free will. Of course, that's why it's ironic: by using the Ark, you technically subvert free will to think irrationally (and irrational people are free to dismiss the importance of free will) but at the same time, it makes the target respect free will.

    The Ark has to change your attitude rather than just make you not believe in the Ori. Otherwise, the Doci and the priors would still be sadistic *******s, just ones who didn't believe in Origin. The fact that the Doci was sorry for what he did shows this. He could have just as easily reasoned that because he had thought the Ori were gods, he was doing the right thing at the time by converting everyone. Instead, he asked for mercy since he realizes just how wrong his actions were.

    If the Ark truly works this way, it should be hooked up to a TV station and broadcast to everyone on Earth, after which time the Stargate program can be revealed without causing mass panic.
    Last edited by 1138; 16 March 2008, 01:10 PM.

    #2
    Watch the movie again.

    I just saw it for the first time yesterday, and if memory serves one of the characters said the Ark actually causes a person to know whatever is real and true.

    Once exposed to it, none of the Ori followers could continue, because the Ark made them aware of the simple fact that the Ori were corrupt liars and not in any way gods.

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      #3
      Originally posted by Niddle View Post
      Watch the movie again.

      I just saw it for the first time yesterday, and if memory serves one of the characters said the Ark actually causes a person to know whatever is real and true.

      Once exposed to it, none of the Ori followers could continue, because the Ark made them aware of the simple fact that the Ori were corrupt liars and not in any way gods.

      do you think that radical fanatics will stop their crusade?? There has to be something different. Fanatics won't stop their crusade if you simply tell them that their gods are liars or even don't exist.
      Stolen Kosovo
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        #4
        Originally posted by Niddle View Post
        Watch the movie again.

        I just saw it for the first time yesterday, and if memory serves one of the characters said the Ark actually causes a person to know whatever is real and true.
        Not quite, that would mean they were given all of the knowledge of the universe, as they'd be given "whatever is real and true".

        A more likely explanation is that it corrects misconceptions held by those exposed to it; ie, the belief that the Ori are gods is a strong, firmly held misconception. The Ark provides knowledge which contradicts that lie, and the person exposed to it "sees the truth".

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          #5
          Does anyone else question the morality of the ark? A devise makes one believe in something... What happened to free will?

          What if Baal had it and turned it into the ark of Baal Oh the damage he could do...
          Stargate Revival Please!

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            #6
            Originally posted by Dev Corvin View Post
            Not quite, that would mean they were given all of the knowledge of the universe, as they'd be given "whatever is real and true".

            A more likely explanation is that it corrects misconceptions held by those exposed to it; ie, the belief that the Ori are gods is a strong, firmly held misconception. The Ark provides knowledge which contradicts that lie, and the person exposed to it "sees the truth".
            Exactly as I see it.

            I believe that Amelius programmed the Ark with the "evidence" that the Alterans had collected that proved that ascension doesn't make one a god. They never mentioned the word "ascension" in the Alteran council's conversation, neither did they indicate how far along the evolutionary path these people were. I think that oversight or omission made the whole idea of what the "truth" that Amelius programmed into the Ark too vague.

            According to what Orlin said, both the Altera and the Ori were advanced humans on the evolutionary path toward ascension. They must have been aware of this fact and wrote the Book of Origin as a way for one to deal with the "revelation of your destiny". I think that the Ori added to this "user's guide to ascension", if you will.

            During the entire time that Daniel was ascended he continually insisted that ascension didn't make one all-knowing or all-powerful, that it was the beginning of the journey, and that he had no right to play God but had a great responsibility that came with his knowledge and power. This is reflective of the Alteran's philosophy that ascension doesn't make one a god.

            The Ori saw ascension as godhood. But, then they realized they could get ever closer to being true gods if they posed as gods so that those who worshiped them would give them more power. So, in my opinion, they took the "Book of Truth", that is, the "Book of Origin", and modified it to make themselves the gods of a religion. Tomin and Vala talked about returning the book to its original intent, which was to improve one's self and be good and moral in preparation to handle the greater knowledge and power that ascension would bring. This is the "true path" that the Alterans had taken -- to be secular humanists who knew that they were headed toward something that would make them appear as if they were gods.

            I see that the only "truth" that could be common to the Ori as the advanced humans that they were at the time the Alterans left and to the Priors who believed that they would join their gods upon death by ascending was that "ascension does not make one a god."

            Comment


              #7
              well if its programmable then it suggest you can put anything in it like what the ori really are

              otherwise its a magical device that shines light and you suddenly see the truth even though if you born a child and followed origin and had known nothing but origin , you can see the truth

              well it conviced the priors maybe some of the armies of the ori arnt so beliving so they might need to see the ark
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                #8
                The Ark makes you believe whatever the person who programmed it wants you to believe, proven by adria's response to Vala when asked why she doesn't just use it to convert the milkyway.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by kirmit View Post
                  The Ark makes you believe whatever the person who programmed it wants you to believe, proven by adria's response to Vala when asked why she doesn't just use it to convert the milkyway.
                  The Ark was designed to forcefully make a person believe the truth , as the one Alterrans stated, it removes ones sense of self and deprives you of that choice. Its essentially brainwashing. That is why the Alterrans ultimately didn't use it, it went against their moral code. That was the point Daniel was arguing at the end of the film to the General and the fact that its being studied at area 51 means we could see it again sometime.

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                    #10
                    (SPOILERS)
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                    We know that the Ark was developed before the Ori and Alterans even ascended, and so it almost likely wasn't programmed with something simple like 'The Ori aren't gods' or 'The Ori didn't create you', since the intended targets were the Ori themselves, when they were still unascended religious fanatics who hadn't yet developed the whole flaming god complex deal. If Amelius had done so, it'd be a huge plot hole, as the ascended Ori should've been able to wipe out the Alterans since they were still humans then and there was no treaty in place between ascended beings to keep the Ori from doing whatever they wanted in their home galaxy.

                    My personal theory is that what Amelius programmed into the Ark were the teachings of Origin in their original (no pun intended) and unmodified form, back when the Book of Origin had been intended to be used as a moral guide to teach the Ancients of right from wrong and thus continue and evolve as a civilization, and without being misinterpreted and/or rewritten by certain individuals for their own ends such as the Ori adding in the bits about how they were true gods and how all unbelievers had to be purged.

                    Amelius probably intended to force the Ori to realize just how far they had deviated from the original teachings of Origin, and probably hoped that the two factions would then be able to live together again, but was then convinced against doing so as it would interfere with free will, and the Ori had the right to discover the truth for themselves. Of course, somewhere down the line the Ori themselves ascended and created the second evolution of humanity who became their devout worshippers thanks to the twisted version of Origin, and so the Ark did come in handy as it still carried out the same function, only on a different group of individuals.

                    As it stands right now, it appears Origin is still being preached in the Ancients' home galaxy based on what Tomin said, only in its unaltered and more benevolent form after the Doci and the Priors had their eyes opened to what it actually stood for.
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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Lord of Nightmares View Post
                      (SPOILERS)
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                      We know that the Ark was developed before the Ori and Alterans even ascended, and so it almost likely wasn't programmed with something simple like 'The Ori aren't gods' or 'The Ori didn't create you', since the intended targets were the Ori themselves, when they were still unascended religious fanatics who hadn't yet developed the whole flaming god complex deal. If Amelius had done so, it'd be a huge plot hole, as the ascended Ori should've been able to wipe out the Alterans since they were still humans then and there was no treaty in place between ascended beings to keep the Ori from doing whatever they wanted in their home galaxy.

                      My personal theory is that what Amelius programmed into the Ark were the teachings of Origin in their original (no pun intended) and unmodified form, back when the Book of Origin had been intended to be used as a moral guide to teach the Ancients of right from wrong and thus continue and evolve as a civilization, and without being misinterpreted and/or rewritten by certain individuals for their own ends such as the Ori adding in the bits about how they were true gods and how all unbelievers had to be purged.

                      Amelius probably intended to force the Ori to realize just how far they had deviated from the original teachings of Origin, and probably hoped that the two factions would then be able to live together again, but was then convinced against doing so as it would interfere with free will, and the Ori had the right to discover the truth for themselves. Of course, somewhere down the line the Ori themselves ascended and created the second evolution of humanity who became their devout worshippers thanks to the twisted version of Origin, and so the Ark did come in handy as it still carried out the same function, only on a different group of individuals.

                      As it stands right now, it appears Origin is still being preached in the Ancients' home galaxy based on what Tomin said, only in its unaltered and more benevolent form after the Doci and the Priors had their eyes opened to what it actually stood for.
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                      I agree that there was a preliminary form of the Book of Origin out there long before the Ori and Altera ascended. It would have been interesting if Cooper had given us some clue as to how much the Ori modified the Book and when they did it. I would have liked to have known what sparked the separation. Was there an action done by the Altera that caused them to withdraw into the mountains and live in isolation? They were an affront to the Ori, so they must have done something that set the Ori off in their rampage. Did they make one of their own artificially ascend to prove that it could be done without the spiritual aspects?

                      We've seen hints as to the changes in the Book or belief system -- like it's pretty certain that killing someone for not believing in Origin was never in the Book ("Line in the Sand"). In that case, the Priors had a very extreme twisted interpretation of the passages that Tomin held so dear.

                      There are some passages in the Book that are definitely apparent as Ori add-ins. Specifically, in the movie, the passage concerning Ortus Mallum and where "evil" was driven out and the mountain exploded. The Prior in "The Fourth Horseman" also talked about the rift ("Life and death. Light and darkness. Hope and despair. The rift was created, and on that day, the Ori were born."). In the episode "Avalon Part 2", the Administrator talks about the "evil spirits" being cast out.

                      But, somewhere within those pages was the "truth" -- the Book in its original form. This is what you're proposing that Amelius programmed into the Ark, and I think that's a very good possibility, but of course, we're not given exactly how much was added on to it at that point -- when the Ori and Altera were still human and still living in the same society. The add-ins that I listed above were after the Altera left.

                      The Alterans believed that presenting evidence was the only moral way to change someone's mind. What evidence did Amelius program into the Ark that was so certainly identifiable as being the "truth", that the most devout followers would see it for being true and open their eyes to their wrong-doing? "I was blind, but now I see." What did the Doci and Priors see?

                      Indeed, I think that it was brainwashing and it was "forced indoctrination". The Alteran council saw that what the Ark did was not using reason and they forbade its use. We probably can try to figure out what the "truth" is in this case by applying our knowledge of canon, but I think that ultimately it will be revealed (we can only hope) that the "truth" that was programmed into the Ark is what Cooper said about the Ark in the Official Magazine. "I try to see the Ark as an allegory for television. I kinda see this box that has a light come out of it, and it makes you believe whatever the person who programmed that box wants you to believe. ... Hopefully, it's not too heavy-handed in that regard, but propaganda plays an enormous role in the winning and losing of wars."

                      I'm wondering how much of the teachings in the original Book was what Oma taught on the walls on the temple at Kheb. I still believe that the original Book had something to do with the Path to Enlightenment and ascension, but right now, we can only speculate.
                      Last edited by DeeKayP; 18 March 2008, 01:27 PM.

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                        #12
                        I was reading along at a good pace and then came to your pic of Adria. After I finally managed to snap out of my stupor, I discovered that over an hour had passed and I had filled my shirt pocket with drool.

                        It's just wrong to put up pics of her without advanced warning.
                        sigpic My Twit-name (@fwupow) is the same!

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                          #13
                          SG-1 Ori story arc vs. the Bible

                          What makes the Ori evil?

                          1. They use force to make people worship them.
                          2. They tell lies (i.e.-they don't ascend their followers).
                          3. They and their Priors look evil?

                          What makes ascended ancients good?

                          1. They let people believe whatever they want.
                          2. They tell the truth as they know it.
                          3. They look all holy in their angelic white light?

                          The Bible explains that Satan was an Angel who rebelled and became Satan (Resistor of God). Satan challenged God's right to rule by claiming that intelligent creatures of free will (Angels and humans) would be better off deciding for themselves what is right/good vs wrong/evil.

                          The Bible is all about God's Kingdom and how God is going to restore His authority over all things. It explains how God has let thousands of years pass in order to provide the evidence that neither Angels or humans are better off independent from His rule. Also, it foretells how God Himself (with His son and angelic forces doing the fighting) will FORCEFULLY eliminate all nonbelievers at the Battle of Armageddon, so that those who adore human rule will be wiped out to make way for His Kingdom.

                          It seems to me that, in some ways, the SG-1 message is contrary to the Bible and it presents as being GOOD the very same thing that the Bible identifies as being the WICKED doctrine of Satan and his demon followers, namely-that people should be independent and decide between good and bad for themselves, write their own Holy books and worship whatever, whomever they please. Also it's pretty clear that a parallel is drawn between the Book-of-Origin and the Bible and that we viewers should smarten-up the same way that Tomin did near the end of AOT and reject certain parts of the Bible as being flawed or falsified.

                          In reality everyone is subject to the law-of-the-land which is a body of imperfect laws made by error-prone humans, so free-will isn't entirely free (unlimited). It's more of an imagined freedom and actually just reflective of a general hatred of the idea of having to obey God or whatever they perceive as being God--in-other-words the same disposition as the devil.
                          sigpic My Twit-name (@fwupow) is the same!

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                            #14
                            Not seen the Movie yet, but spoiled anyway...

                            The Ori could be Gods, depending on the meaning of the wold. They are more powerful than standard-humans, have the ability to effect humans, transforming them into Priors/ Doci/ Impregnating them/ etc. Which a Standard-Human couldn't do (minus the Pregnancy-party... although creating an Oracle-being is well out of our capabilities).

                            If the followers of the Ori choose to beleive that these powers is what constitutes divinity and deitiship, them the Ori are Gods. The Ark is incapable of changing that fact, minus changing their definition of the term "God", thereby Brainwashing them, or revealing that the Ori don't ascend their followers, giving them an incentive to defy their "Gods"...

                            However, if the Followers of the Ori beleive the Ori to be on level with an omnipotent, omnipresent, etc Deity, then the Ark could reveal that this is untrue, lowering the status of the Ori and giving their followers another incentive to defy them. However, the idea of omnipotent, omnipresent deities raises all sorts of paradoxes, so sticking with Being of Higher Power might be the best case, thus lowering the bar to Divinity instead...

                            Either that, or the Arc of Truth is a Poly-Logistical Orientation Transposer Device...

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by fwupow View Post
                              It seems to me that, in some ways, the SG-1 message is contrary to the Bible and it presents as being GOOD the very same thing that the Bible identifies as being the WICKED doctrine of Satan and his demon followers, namely-that people should be independent and decide between good and bad for themselves, write their own Holy books and worship whatever, whomever they please. Also it's pretty clear that a parallel is drawn between the Book-of-Origin and the Bible and that we viewers should smarten-up the same way that Tomin did near the end of AOT and reject certain parts of the Bible as being flawed or falsified.
                              Sweet. My respect for SG-1 has now increased.

                              1) It's now a tool of Satan. Combined with the fact that my other favourite franchise is also a tool of Satan, my overall evilness has just doubled. As everyone knows, evil is just damn cool.

                              2) Anything that criticizes how organized religion can brainwash and indoctrinate people is a good thing. If religion were never forced on people, those who find religion on their own have a stronger connection with it since they arrived at it through their own thought processes. The concept of God would be much more personal and meaningful. This is good for the religious. It's also good for the non-religious, because there will be fewer people who blindly follow what some old book says as interpreted by some sneaky human. In turn, this will make people more reasonable as long as they avoid being brainwashed by other things, like corporate interests and fascist governments.
                              Last edited by 1138; 18 March 2008, 05:39 PM.

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