Wraith Threat? Very Real!!

[Tekken Lord]

Wraith Threat? Very Real!

Introduction

Lately with the introduction of the Asgard uber fanwank beam of death and its three shot kill of a Hive (ridiculous by the way) the threat the Wraith possess has been disregarded by the wider community. However the Wraith are the most terrifying of all races in the stargate universe, and with a recent revelation it was revealed to myself that the Wraith could easily defeat any known stargate race even now in their weakened state. All it would take is the writers making the Wraith use their resources wisely. To realise just how powerful the Wraith are we must compare the Hive a carrier and the Cruiser a warship. I have titled them such because that is what they are and it will soon become apparent. The sheer almighty power of the Wraith is an accident that I doubt the writer intended for the Wraith but it easily explains why the Ancients lost the war and why we should fear them (plot and budget will prevent us from ever seeing their true power).

The Hive Ship

The Hive is one of the most impressive ships in stargate, its size bigger than a mountain, however the Hives sole purpose is as a carrier a giant flying city for the Wraith. The fact that the ship is formidable in battle is a non-issue however it is important that we all know what a Hive is capable of achieving.

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=38304&highlight=wraith+hive+dimensions

The link tells you everything you need to know about the Wraith Hive. As I said Hives are carriers and it’s not beyond reason that they can carry tens of thousands of darts. That is one of many points of note, the sheer length of a Hive 11km is truly amazing and the devastating power of its weaponry is the strongest pulse type weapon in the stargate universe. The size of a Hive cannot be stressed enough and to add the fact that they are heavily armoured and it’s not unreasonable for the armour to be quite resilient. For all intensive purposes it is acting as a Hives shield and should be capable of taking a hell of a beating. Unfortunately this is not supported by canon as a Hive is easily destroyed in three shots by instant win Asgard hero beams. As much as this is canon it is ridiculous however it is canon and therefore it cannot be argued with no matter how ridiculous it is (sorry but it is). Regardless of a Hives literal submission to the Asgard death rays it is still an impressive ship however it is an ineffectual Wraith vessel when it comes to war, after all it is a carrier and not a battle cruiser.

Cruisers

Widely underestimated vessel, done injustice by the show, this is the Wraith’s key to winning any war. The Cruiser has half as many plasma cannons as a Hive so it’s only capable of dealing out half the damage of a Hive at maximum, but this is an assumption so let’s assume a Cruiser can only deal out a tenth of a damage a Hive can. We could get lower but this already seems below a Cruisers capabilities and by this assumption 10 Cruisers equals one Hive in terms of firepower. Now lets examine the defensive capabilities of a Cruiser, one missile means instant death a Hive can survive many so not so impressive however lets assume one hit by the Asgard plasma beams will destroy it. Considering that a Hive was destroyed by three this seems more than reasonable that a Cruiser wouldn’t survive one direct. But we determined under the assumption that 10 Cruiser equalled a Hives worth of firepower we have now determined that it would take ten shots by the Asgard plasma beams to kill this Hive equivalent. It seems that under these assumptions Cruisers are far superior to Hives in combat.

Now this is the end of the assumptions their purpose was to paint a picture in your mind. A Hive is 11km by length and 8km by width, a Cruiser is 1200m by length and 700m by width. By these measurements a Cruiser is dwarfed by the Hive which is approximately a hundred times bigger, I have ignored the height of both vessels but that is unimportant as a Hive is 1000m thick and a Cruiser is barely that long let alone that thick. Of course because I have not included the height it must be realised that a Hive is definitely more than a hundred times bigger than a Cruiser. Using this simplified math and pretending that both are two dimensional rectangles a Hive is 88km^2 and a Cruiser is 0.84km^2, this means a Hive is 104.76 times bigger than a Cruiser. This math is of course over simplified and in fact both the Hive and Cruiser would be less than the numbers given, that however is unimportant as the purpose of this math was to determine the ratio in size which it has. From this math we can easily say that the resources used to make a single Hive could be more wisely used to create 100 Cruisers. And from the picture I painted before a Hive is inferior to 10 Cruisers, however this used assumptions so let’s compare the actual facts. It would take 100 shot of the Asgard plasma beams to destroy the resource equivalent Cruisers but only three to destroy the Hive (which is ridiculous). We don’t know the kind of firepower a Cruiser can dish out however we can say the exact minimum 100 Cruisers could wield in firepower would be that of a single Hive, which is simply a massive underestimation of Cruisers firepower. However even if this underestimation were true the equivalent resource of a Hive spent in Cruisers is far superior to that of a Hive, the difference being 97 hits of the Asgard beam weapon. To fully grasp the horror of what the Wraith are capable of which I don’t doubt you already have, in The Last Man the Phoenix instead of facing 4 Hives could have been facing 400 Cruisers, same result but far more terrifying.

Wraith Threat Very Real

Lately the Wraith have not been considered a threat because of the Asgard plasma beams, however it is obvious that if the Wraith properly pool their resources into the production of Cruisers instead of Hives they will once again become the feared race that defeat the Ancients through unimaginable numbers of Wraith vessels. Now that we can truly appreciate a Cruiser for all it is worth it should be realised that if the writers do the Wraith justice then there is no need for new villains as the Wraith would be more than capable of defeating the Atlantis expedition. And if the Wraith ever made it to the Milky Way they’d be capable of easily over running the galaxy. The Wraith defeated the Ancients and for that they should be respected because if they weren’t made dumb so that our heroes could defeat them they’d be the most powerful race in the stargate universe.

Just so you know Wraith win all stargate universe vs threads from now on because its not unreasonable to think the Wraith could have 60 Hives and 60 Hives equals 6000 Cruisers and 6000 Cruisers equals win

[Dr.Mckay]

How long did you spend typing this out.... o.o
We've killed like 20 or so hives, and they've killed themselve too. They have numbers, we have power, they will lose.

[Tekken Lord]

I think this took an hour to write.

We will only win because of plot, hero shield and fanwank beams of death. If the Wraith fight anything like they could and weren't held back by the afformentioned drawbacks they would win and win easily.

[thekillman]

i am happy with the beams. exept the 3 shot kill, but anyway: michales trap showed the real power of the wraith. but the wraith just dont show it. i am completely for a group of 14 hives or so reaching the MW. they seed terror, and its up to us to try and kill them. that would make a terrific epy, with ronon and tealc together, the deady, apollo, oddy, and phoenix.

[Durgia]

We will only win because of plot

last I checked this was a fictional tv show, everything happens because of the plot.

We got a big space gun. Yep it can kill the wraith real quick. 3 well placed shots take out a hive, so what? 2 well placed drones can take out a Ha'Tak but that does not mean a fleet of jumpers could rule the MW.

The wraith hives until now have fought like old world sailing ships. They pull along side each other and have at it. Perhaps now they might include dodging as one of their tactics. It has been shown the cruisers are maneuverable enough to dodge our beams. Hives are bigger but if they make them move a bit, not exposing their weak areas they will do fine too.

Also remember, the more Wraith we kill, the less they worry about food shortages. Eventually they will stop killing themselves and start killing us.

[ManiacMike]

We will only win because of plot, hero shield and fanwank beams of death. If the Wraith fight anything like they could and weren't held back by the afformentioned drawbacks they would win and win easily.

Then that wouldn't make a good tv show would it?

[Tekken Lord]

^ What i'm saying is, is that if the Wraith are unhampered by plot and instead of creating a Hive create 100 Cruisers which is equal resources Wraith win. 100 Cruisers is far better than a single Hive even if the beam weapon one shot kills them. It wouldn't make a good tv show sure but they don't need the Wraith to go all out, thirty Cruisers would make them as huge threat again.

Originally Posted by thekillman
i am happy with the beams. exept the 3 shot kill, but anyway: michales trap showed the real power of the wraith. but the wraith just dont show it. i am completely for a group of 14 hives or so reaching the MW. they seed terror, and its up to us to try and kill them. that would make a terrific epy, with ronon and tealc together, the deady, apollo, oddy, and phoenix.

You realise 14 Hives translates into 1400 Cruisers, it's quite incredible with that number of Cruisers Hives are obselete their only purpose is a home for the Wraith, Cruisers are meant for battle.

Also i had no problems with the beam weapons until they three shot killed a Hive, it's heavily armoured and 11km long 10 shots would have been fine.

[ijffdrie]

and you realise that they can never use large fleets of cruisers becuase if we take one out it explodes and destroys all other cruisers around, which also explode etc.

[ACharmedAsgard]

I'm afraid I will have to disagree with your idea that the 3 shot kill of a Wraith Hive ship by the plasma beams is stupid - it isn't, not I mean, if those 3 shots were fired well in the right locations. If three well aimed and fired beams hit Hives in the right locations - the secondary explosions would easily destroy a hive (As we saw in Last Man)

However. If those same three shots were fired in not very good places on the Hive - the Hive would receive minimal damage or will not be destroyed. Evidence of this was on last man - each shot on the first hive were well placed so the ship was destroyed however the beam fired on the second ship
was not so well placed so it received as the lieutenant said 'Minimal damage'

This means it is not a case of the 3 shot kill being stupid - it is a case of not only the power of the beams being important but how they are used and where they are fired. Even the weakest and least advanced of weapons can do well and major damage if they are used well.

Now your idea of the cruisers being very powerful and useful for the Wraith against the powerful beam weapons I agree with. Because the cruisers are smaller it means that it is much much harder for the beam weapons to be fired at the smaller hard to get to weak points of the ship, and making it much more difficult to get a 3 shot kill. But also, because the ships are smaller they are faster and more maneuverable meaning they can evade beam shots better and do more hit and run ops.

This is why it was much easier for the phoenix to destroy that Wraith Hive then it was for the daedalus to destroy the cruiser that Michael was using

[Tekken Lord]

One Cruiser exploding is not going to destroy the rest of them, and it would be foolish to bunch them all together when you can have so many and with how huge space is.

I feel the three shots is stupid but it's canon so their is no point in arguing about it as i accept that it's canon.

It wouldn't take much effort from the Wraith in terms of manufacturing of Cruisers and tactically for maybe ten of them to defeat a 304. The Wraith are still a very formidable enemy probably the most in the stargate universe.

[ACharmedAsgard]

Well here is something that may change your mind (Hopefully)

there are 4 men - two with a gun to without.

the two men with guns have only one bullet and both have the intension of killing one of the unarmed men. The first man with a gun fires the bullet at one of the unarmed men and it hits the unarmed man's arm. The unarmed man suffers damage but survives. The goal was met.

Now the other man with a gun fires it at the other unarmed man but thinks first and it hits the unarmed man in the head. Even though he had the same goal as the other man with a gun and only had one bullet like the other guy, in this case the goal was met

This was because the second guy with a gun thought where to fire and the bullet was well placed. This applies to the beam usage as well.

If it's simply canon then wouldn't of carter easily destroyed both hives rather then just the one?

[a6346]

well you cant exactly have that many cruisers the wraith work as pack-family groups 1 hive with escorts = a family, cruisers cant hold as many darts so they wont be able to do so well culling. Also the sheer fear factor of seeing a wraith hive infront of your ship or above your planet would strike fear in youespecialy seeing there darts swarms. There are uses behind both vessels the hive is more of a logistics ship brining food weapons and supplies to its forces along with fighter support were as the cruiser is more of a short range meduim scout vessel and not meant for the long time wraith spend in space wereas a hive is. Then youve got to look at production capabilities building that many cruisers will take longer and more shipyards than a hive a hive might be huge but would only require 1 facility wereas the cruisers would need 100's.

The writers have seriosly dumbed down the wraith the sheer size of a wraith hive shows the only way to destroy a hive is through area of effect weaponry how the hell would a 10 foot wide beam do any damage to a 11km long vessel even if it hits a strutural weak point it wont do enough damage to the ship also we dont know were the weak points are and getting 3 lucky shots on a 11km long vesels is kinda hard. BAMSR screwwed the wraith up the most when a Asuran Aurora took out a hive with only a few drones (bout 20) once again it would take 100's of drones to destroy a hive ship.

There pulse weapons arent as powerful as you make out but seem to do more damage than they should in 'last man' if you look at the episode 'no mans land' the daedalus is takign the fire from a single hive for about 10 minutes before its sheilds go down this is even before the asgard legacy upgrades wereas the phoenix got buggered after a few shots plot device ftl.

[Tekken Lord]

Well here is something that may change your mind (Hopefully)

there are 4 men - two with a gun to without.

the two men with guns have only one bullet and both have the intension of killing one of the unarmed men. The first man with a gun fires the bullet at one of the unarmed men and it hits the unarmed man's arm. The unarmed man suffers damage but survives. The goal was met.

Now the other man with a gun fires it at the other unarmed man but thinks first and it hits the unarmed man in the head. Even though he had the same goal as the other man with a gun and only had one bullet like the other guy, in this case the goal was met

This was because the second guy with a gun thought where to fire and the bullet was well placed. This applies to the beam usage as well.

If it's simply canon then wouldn't of carter easily destroyed both hives rather then just the one?

I understand what you mean, i always considered this even before you said it. It just makes the Wraith and the Ancients seem extremely stupid if Hives have such weak spots. The Wraith for having the weakness and the Ancients for not exploiting it.

[Tekken Lord]

well you cant exactly have that many cruisers the wraith work as pack-family groups 1 hive with escorts = a family, cruisers cant hold as many darts so they wont be able to do so well culling. Also the sheer fear factor of seeing a wraith hive infront of your ship or above your planet would strike fear in youespecialy seeing there darts swarms. There are uses behind both vessels the hive is more of a logistics ship brining food weapons and supplies to its forces along with fighter support were as the cruiser is more of a short range meduim scout vessel and not meant for the long time wraith spend in space wereas a hive is. Then youve got to look at production capabilities building that many cruisers will take longer and more shipyards than a hive a hive might be huge but would only require 1 facility wereas the cruisers would need 100's.

The writers have seriosly dumbed down the wraith the sheer size of a wraith hive shows the only way to destroy a hive is through area of effect weaponry how the hell would a 10 foot wide beam do any damage to a 11km long vessel even if it hits a strutural weak point it wont do enough damage to the ship also we dont know were the weak points are and getting 3 lucky shots on a 11km long vesels is kinda hard. BAMSR screwwed the wraith up the most when a Asuran Aurora took out a hive with only a few drones (bout 20) once again it would take 100's of drones to destroy a hive ship.

There pulse weapons arent as powerful as you make out but seem to do more damage than they should in 'last man' if you look at the episode 'no mans land' the daedalus is takign the fire from a single hive for about 10 minutes before its sheilds go down this is even before the asgard legacy upgrades wereas the phoenix got buggered after a few shots plot device ftl.

Actually the Daedalus shields should have been depleted that was the plot device. Also 100 Cruisers take up the same amout of area as one Hive that's how massive a Hive is, it's well within the Wraith's capabilities to make 100 Cruisers instead of one Hive using the same amount of resources and unite to defeat their external enemy. Cruiser is short for battle cruiser

The Wraith could easily defeat us if not for plot, i'm okay with that but i'd like them to bring a little fear back with a massive and easily created fleet of Cruisers.

[kymeric]

Youre wrong, the wraith are going to kill everyone on the ships, then theyre gonna kill everyone on atlantis. After that theyre gonna get to the milkyway and kill everyone in the galaxy planet by planet before finally getting to earth and killing all 6+ billion earthlings.

lol.

Is this really what you expected?

Of course the Wraith are all going to die. If it wasnt alien beam weapons it would be some kinda ancient device or some other plot device. The basic factor of western scifi is that the good guys will win. If you want something else go make a snuff film with aliens.

Even in aliens we knew ripley would get away (till #3 which was undone in 4)