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View Full Version : The Ark of Truth Alteran/Ancient Discussion thread



Annubis' hitman
March 12th, 2008, 04:28 PM
So i decided to start a thread about likes/dislikes of basically the opening alteran scene of them fleeing the ori and the ancient involvement throughout the movie.

Discuss the "village ship", the decision to leave, Morgan, ext.

~Likes~

I was personally glad that the ship they left in was not atlantis as many thought it would be. That would show that the ancients have been stagnant for millions of years. I loved the village ship idea.

I like that they didn't use the ark on the ori. It really fits with the ascended ancient rules and extreme pacifist behavior that we have come to expect of the ancients.

I liked that the writers had enough sense to show the ancient communcation device used in previous seasons in the movie. It showed plot continuity which they sometimes forget we care about.

Morgan pwned Adria straight up and decided to help us. Its nice to see that the ancients (at least some) know the right thing to do. I think the ancients have the best intentions but are extreme pacifists and hate war kinda like the nox, perhaps not to that degree though. (I attribute this attitude to why the wraith pwn the lanteans).

~Dislikes~

I really don't understand the primative village on top of the mountain. Are they the ori? are they the ori's followers and the ori have already ascended?
Are they alterans living in disguise to fool the ori or their followers(Like the Geni)? I really think they should have elaborated more on that.


Any other thoughts about the alterans/ancients in the movie?

Jeffala
March 12th, 2008, 04:59 PM
I was personally glad that the ship they left in was not atlantis as many thought it would be. That would show that the ancients have been stagnant for millions of years. I loved the village ship idea.

I'm not sure that even an Alteran ship would be able to survive the 50+ Million years that it's been since they left the Ori galaxy.

Of course, the minimum age of Atlantis is "several million" years but I don't think a 50+ million year old ship would still be viable.

(The oldest known stargate is 50 million years old ["Frozen"] and it was "thousands of years" before that when the Alterans left the Ori galaxy ["Avalon, Part 2"].)

Annubis' hitman
March 12th, 2008, 05:08 PM
I guess your right about that.

I was glad it wasn't atlantis because that would mean the ancients have been stagnant for a long time and i enjoy when the writers actually show a progression of ancient technology over time.
edit: A progression over time like it actually would be if stargate was real.

the fifth man
March 12th, 2008, 05:20 PM
I thought what we saw of the Alterans in AOT really gave us a lot about who they were before they ascended. I really enjoyed what we got to see of them.

Annubis' hitman
March 12th, 2008, 05:23 PM
I thought what we saw of the Alterans in AOT really gave us a lot about who they were before they ascended. I really enjoyed what we got to see of them.

agreed.

im interested to see how you/others interperted the villagers though.

Ltcolshepjumper
March 12th, 2008, 05:26 PM
So i decided to start a thread about likes/dislikes of basically the opening alteran scene of them fleeing the ori and the ancient involvement throughout the movie.

Discuss the "village ship", the decision to leave, Morgan, ext.

~Likes~

I was personally glad that the ship they left in was not atlantis as many thought it would be. That would show that the ancients have been stagnant for millions of years. I loved the village ship idea.

I like that they didn't use the ark on the ori. It really fits with the ascended ancient rules and extreme pacifist behavior that we have come to expect of the ancients.

I liked that the writers had enough sense to show the ancient communcation device used in previous seasons in the movie. It showed plot continuity which they sometimes forget we care about.

Morgan pwned Adria straight up and decided to help us. Its nice to see that the ancients (at least some) know the right thing to do. I think the ancients have the best intentions but are extreme pacifists and hate war kinda like the nox, perhaps not to that degree though. (I attribute this attitude to why the wraith pwn the lanteans).

~Dislikes~

I really don't understand the primative village on top of the mountain. Are they the ori? are they the ori's followers and the ori have already ascended?
Are they alterans living in disguise to fool the ori or their followers(Like the Geni)? I really think they should have elaborated more on that.


Any other thoughts about the alterans/ancients in the movie?

Everyone in the mountains were Alterans. The ones underground (they have a knack for hiding) were merely the scientists and village leaders. I kinda liked how the Alterans were at first. They had a few really good technologies, but their style looked rather antique, especially that power source during the meeting. It showed just how far the Ancients have advanced since their arrival in the MW. Also, they behaved similarly to the Ori underground movement.

the fifth man
March 12th, 2008, 05:29 PM
Everyone in the mountains were Alterans. The ones underground (they have a knack for hiding) were merely the scientists and village leaders. I kinda liked how the Alterans were at first. They had a few really good technologies, but their style looked rather antique, especially that power source during the meeting. It showed just how far the Ancients have advanced since their arrival in the MW. Also, they behaved similarly to the Ori underground movement.

Very much so.

I too think that the villagers above were Alterans as well.

Sauron18
March 12th, 2008, 07:24 PM
Yeah, I agree. Despite the fact that part of me wishes they were Ori because that would mean we saw them, a greater part believes it makes more sense for the Ori to be in a completely different village (or Celestis).

I do wish we'd seen more of what was going on there, if at least in comments and such. And well, that we hadn't seen the stargate sketches.

This I disliked because the Ori had stargate technology, and even if they stole some of the Alteran knowledge at some point they'd have had to use a stargate to get to Milky Way. They certainly didn't steal any knowledge from the Ortus Mallum, since they would've found the Ark, but who knows, since other stuff from in there were found (communications device).

Unless the Alterans had other villages, which could explain how this specific lab could remain sealed while Ori followers found devices and such millions of years later. This might also explain how the Ori eventually learned how to do stargates, if some other sketches were left elsewhere.


There are other explanations, such as the Ori coming up with it on their own through extrapolation. This is my view of their society:




I don't believe they are at a medieval level of technology, in the sense that they didn't "just get there". I believe they DID reach a very high technological point in their history, and that somehow their technology ended up creating great devastation.

This would explain (to me) why the Ori would be so fanatical about the Alterans abandoning technology and focusing on ascension through religious means. I strongly doubt their religion had any gods or was in any way similar to Origin.

Also, I believe the Ori tolerated Alteran technologies for many years because the Alterans might've provided the Ori with some basic technologies. Ring platforms, staff weapons, communications devices. These all seem small enough that the Ori would appreciate how they made their life easier, but they probably wouldn't want anything too big.

If the Ori had a small level of technology (the typical amount you see with their followers), then they might've been able to develop stargates from that, if at least enough to get to some Alteran outpost in MW and steal more info.


This is all theory, but it's my view of the Alteran and Ori society, post-AOT

RepliVeggie
March 12th, 2008, 10:00 PM
I believe that they were Alterans. They were hiding because they didn't want to fight the Ori. RCC said in an interview that the Alterans could have killed the Ori if they wanted but the ancients we know just decided to avoid any bloodshed at all and leave in the village ship. About the Ori level of technology back then I believe they were 100% against technology of any kind. I don't know why but I believe so. About the stargates. Its a good question. If they Ori were totally against technology then I think that after the Alterans left that they went through the old Alteran villages if any others existed. All we really seen before the ships were made to convert MW is rings. Which they could have easily found lieing around that the Alterans used and simply moved them. As for the Ori. RCC made it sound like they were not ascended when the Alterans left their galaxy. So it makes me wonder what was the religion based on/come from before their ascension. Why were the so adamant about the Alterans being wiped out.


Also. The BIGGEST thing I don't think people get is the Ancients don't simply refuse to interfere because they feel that it isn't their place. But I believe they are deadly afraid of becoming like the Ori. I think they don't believe that if they were to help our plain of existence and were worshiped for it that they wouldn't be able to resist the tempation of the power and become what they hate most.

DeRoest
March 13th, 2008, 12:00 AM
My favorite depiction of Ancients were those two from the opening scenes from Rising who didnt say anything but looked strangely powerful and noble and, well, ancient. The idea of them as superior god-like humans is lost when you seem a bunch of peasants chatting in canadian accents sporting 'fros.

Also, were just those half-dozen people the only alterans around? I had always assumed the alteran came to the MW as a mass exodus.

RepliVeggie
March 13th, 2008, 12:35 AM
My favorite depiction of Ancients were those two from the opening scenes from Rising who didnt say anything but looked strangely powerful and noble and, well, ancient. The idea of them as superior god-like humans is lost when you seem a bunch of peasants chatting in canadian accents sporting 'fros.

Also, were just those half-dozen people the only alterans around? I had always assumed the alteran came to the GW as a mass exodus.

That was likely their high council or whatever governing body. There was probably a thousand or so Alterans I guess.

wise one
March 13th, 2008, 02:36 AM
when the villiage ship took off it reminded me of rising when atlantis took off from the antartic

so i was thinking maybe they used their ship as a biulding block to which later became atlantis due to ancient population growth

RepliVeggie
March 13th, 2008, 11:16 AM
when the villiage ship took off it reminded me of rising when atlantis took off from the antartic

so i was thinking maybe they used their ship as a biulding block to which later became atlantis due to ancient population growth

I actually think that the village ship was under the mountain of Dakara. Just seemed to me to look like one of those domes on the ship could have been the device they used to seed life.

Annubis' hitman
March 13th, 2008, 12:39 PM
Right now it seems as though the leading theory is the whole village was alteran and i think that would make the most sense for a couple of reasons.

1.) when the ship took off it destroyed the village. It would make sense that all the alterans got in the ship and left because if it was the ori they would have still been in the village. If the ori were still in the village they'd be dead and thats why the alterans left, to not kill the ori.

2.) The ori would notice the alterans hiding a massive village-ship in the mountain right by their village.


So im going with the alterans village theory right now.

RepliVeggie
March 13th, 2008, 10:57 PM
Right now it seems as though the leading theory is the whole village was alteran and i think that would make the most sense for a couple of reasons.

1.) when the ship took off it destroyed the village. It would make sense that all the alterans got in the ship and left because if it was the ori they would have still been in the village. If the ori were still in the village they'd be dead and thats why the alterans left, to not kill the ori.

2.) The ori would notice the alterans hiding a massive village-ship in the mountain right by their village.


So im going with the alterans village theory right now.

Exactly. They would not even kill 1 Ori human to flee.

Annubis' hitman
March 14th, 2008, 11:02 AM
Coopers saying a bunch of stuff about things in the movies so maybe he'll discuss the people in the village.

O and he talked about how morgan helping was like the ancients saying thank you for us kicking ori butt.

Read the article i think it was really cool.

Tenth_Regent
March 16th, 2008, 05:11 PM
A couple things struck me about those scenes and what they imply. One is that the religion came first. It wasn't a deism imposed by the ascended Ori after their ascension; it was an established religion co-opted by them once ascended. (Actually, I'm sure the "imposition" part came later in that galaxy, after the Alteran ascension, in order to feed the Ori's desire for power.)

It seems then that it was the problem of a religious movement that the Ark was created to stem, rather like (if such science had existed) the Romans creating a brainwashing machine to fight off Christianity. (No, I'm not comparing Origin and Christianity; I'm merely drawing an historical allusion.) The Ark was meant to dissuade people -- human(oid)s -- from their religious beliefs. In such a context it seems odd that a race as enlightened as the Alterans would have even permitted such a device to be created. If we mere humans were able to conceive (and generally follow) the notions of the First Amendment, it seems the Alterans wouldn't have let things go as far as they did.

It all makes me wonder about the original version of Origin. Perhaps it was a Luddite response to the science in the Alteran culture. Obviously it would have been transformed over the ages to support the ascension mythos, but was it just an anti-science movement at the outset? Was that the danger and why it needed to be stopped, or was it something else? After the departure of the pro-science Alterans, an Origin-based Alteran culture probably developed, and after millennia of adherence, these people achieved ascension. So where did the “evil” part develop? At some point the Origin believers must have become corrupted in some manner: is this something they took with them into the enhanced state of ascencion? Or was manipulating a religion and forcing worship something they chose to do afterward – in essence, abandoning the teachings that permitted them to achieve ascencion to pursue their own greed of glorification and power?

As implied in the movie, Origin would likely be getting a re-write by its followers. But if the ascended Ori became the malicious creatures they were because of the original (or, over the ages, evolved) version of Origin that they followed, could the religion really be returned to whatever its original inspiration was? And would the followers accept such alterations, even if coming from the Doci and priors? People are rarely homogenous, and it seems that pockets of Origin crusades would continue for generations. The more I think about these things, the more I become convinced that SG1 will never again touch the Ori galaxy. Otherwise, they'd probably have to deal with some of the fallout from a radical change of the de facto state religion.