Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

"Why did everything go to hell just because Sheppard was gone?"

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    "Why did everything go to hell just because Sheppard was gone?"

    I felt the need to make a new thread for this just because I keep seeing it time and time again, including in the most recent fan review. People are complaining that it's unrealistic that Sheppard's disappearance had such a huge effect on the unfurling of events and is the primary reason things went bad.

    It was crystal clear from the episode, however, that Sheppard's disappearance had precious little to do with things going bad -- i.e. not finding Teyla in time. The ONLY reason things are expected to go better after he's returned to the present is because he is armed with specific information provided to him by HoloMcKay.

    I guess it just seemed perfectly obvious to me, making me do a double-take when I see so many people note the same "flaw."
    Theoretically spoilerish:
    Spoiler:
    Sig courtesy of Pandora.

    #2
    I totally agree.
    sigpic

    The New GateWorld Virtual Fleet Database

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by MrMcKayCan View Post
      I felt the need to make a new thread for this just because I keep seeing it time and time again, including in the most recent fan review. People are complaining that it's unrealistic that Sheppard's disappearance had such a huge effect on the unfurling of events and is the primary reason things went bad.

      It was crystal clear from the episode, however, that Sheppard's disappearance had precious little to do with things going bad -- i.e. not finding Teyla in time. The ONLY reason things are expected to go better after he's returned to the present is because he is armed with specific information provided to him by HoloMcKay.
      I guess it just seemed perfectly obvious to me, making me do a double-take when I see so many people note the same "flaw."
      Correct. If Sheppard had been there, Michael would still have taken over the galaxy. The critical point was that they did not have the resources to keep up with Michael. At the end of the episode, they do.
      Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth or easy...

      ... or that any man can measure the tides and hurricanes he will
      encounter on the strange journey.


      Spoiler:

      2 Cor. 10:3-5
      3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
      4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; )
      5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

      Comment


        #4
        Aye. It was not finding Teyla and her baby that allowed Michael to take over.
        I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

        Comment


          #5
          Exactly. Everything Rodney told John was the original timeline, as it was supposed to happen. It was their fate, if you will, as John's disappearance was a natural occurance. It happened because it was supposed to happen. Rodney deciding to help him and John coming back with the information causes a whole new timeline. His disappearance had nothing to do with what happened after that.

          Comment


            #6
            Perhaps when shep disappeared, for some reason they lost their only chance to properly stop michael and recover Teyla before michael did his thing... So when shep went missing that did not happen..

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by garhkal View Post
              Perhaps when shep disappeared, for some reason they lost their only chance to properly stop michael and recover Teyla before michael did his thing... So when shep went missing that did not happen..
              But what evidence is there to support that?
              Theoretically spoilerish:
              Spoiler:
              Sig courtesy of Pandora.

              Comment


                #8
                Correct, Rodney deliberately used Shep as a tool to cheat, not restore, the timeline.

                Sheppard himself would not have magically aquired the location of Teyla in time to save her- she would have died and Michael would have used her baby as the key to taking over Pegasus. By giving Sheppard the exact location of Teyla, which they were never supposed to HAVE, he was able to change the timeline.

                ....
                ...........
                ...............maybe.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I agree - but will also add that it was a little of both.

                  Sheppard is a bit of a ....what would you say? A little bulldog. He doesn't give up easy. Remember what Todd said in Common Ground? He was 'stronger than any human he's ever fed upon.'

                  Part of that strength is his determination to keep on going. It's what saved him when he was nearly sucked dry by Todd. It's what's saved him through that duststorm. It's what's saved him when the iratus bug was attached to his neck. It's what's saved him in so many situations.

                  So...without him there as Atlantis' very own human ZPM, the PTB quickly took over, and - as Rodney said - they didn't have enough resources to search for Teyla.

                  Think about it - it's ALWAYS been Sheppard who went the extra mile to save his Pegasus-born friends. Only Sheppard would push and push and push until Teyla was found, alive and well. But the others from Earth? Nah - they'd consider her 'acceptable losses' since she was - to them - an alien. Sheppard, on the other hand, was able to look beyond where the person was from, to see who the person was - he loves Teyla and Ronon like his own family, and he'll do whatever it takes to save either one of them. Unfortunately, the others from Earth don't share his same dogged determination to save humans from another galaxy.

                  So, in this light it was a cascade effect: With Sheppard not there to fight for Teyla, the earth-based powers would not see the need to make an extra effort to find some alien (and a woman, at that) from another galaxy. Sam and the others would, of course, make an attempt - but they lack the one thing Sheppard has in aces - the ability to break the rules at every turn to save a comrade, and somehow get the resources along the way to succeed. It's the basis on which he was introduced into the series - he's the guy who will not leave a friend behind - at all costs, he will save them. So, without him there to fight to find Teyla, she would be lost forever, and Michael would take over the galaxy.

                  The thing is - even armed with new information from the future, Teyla is still lost to them. So, assuming that John survives the building collapse, he still needs to find her before it's too late. The fact that he's back in the right time will certainly help...and increases the odds that she will be found, and Michael will not gain the upper hand.

                  So - yes - the rise of Michael is due to Teyla's death (and the loss of her child to Michael), but her death is partially due to Sheppard not being there to drive the others on to find her. But he is there now, and even though they still don't know where Teyla is, at least - with Sheppard on their side - they have a fighting chance to find her before it's too late, again.

                  das
                  Last edited by dasNdanger; 11 March 2008, 09:02 PM.
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Yeah, with respect, I can't agree with any of that at all. That's assigning way, way too much gravitas to him in my opinion. However tenacious Sheppard is -- and I agree he's tenacious -- it's clear that the team continued tirelessly searching until they found her (dead unfortunately). There's no reason to think Sheppard would have had any better ideas on where to look if he were there, which is really the only thing at issue.
                    Theoretically spoilerish:
                    Spoiler:
                    Sig courtesy of Pandora.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                      Stuff
                      He can push as much as he wants, he still won't find her if he has no idea where to look for her and she's well hidden.

                      Also, Teyla's lost to them even now, but that doesn't mean squat if the timeline's changed, now does it? A lot of new things can happen which will help them find Teyla in time. The fact that John's just there might not be the decisive reason.



                      Comment


                        #12
                        And just as a side note, Sheppard's not the "only" one from Earth who cares to find Teyla. McKay cares just as much, and Lorne's and Carter's investment in the search has seemed apparent as well.
                        Theoretically spoilerish:
                        Spoiler:
                        Sig courtesy of Pandora.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by MrMcKayCan
                          Yeah, with respect, I can't agree with any of that at all. That's assigning way, way too much gravitas to him in my opinion. However tenacious Sheppard is -- and I agree he's tenacious -- it's clear that the team continued tirelessly searching until they found her (dead unfortunately). There's no reason to think Sheppard would have had any better ideas on where to look if he were there, which is really the only thing at issue.
                          Yes, the team continued tirelessly, but Rodney says they had limited resources and were not able to cover enough ground. Why? Well, my first guess is that once Sheppard was 'dead', the by-the-bookers immediately stepped in (Caldwell, IOC, etc) and deemed it unnecessary to put additional personnel on the job.

                          Also - and I'm taking a wild guess here because there is absolutely no indication of it, but without Shep to vouch for Todd, I doubt they'd ask him for assistance, which he may have been willing to do - if the price was right. What better way to find Michael than to see what Michael's other enemies know. But after Midway, no way would the IOC/SGC agree to make nice with a Wraith, (though Sam may have some influence, but I don't know if she'd go behind their backs like Sheppard would). Sheppard was the buffer there, and he was gone.

                          And, like I said earlier, the whole 'theme' of Sheppard's character is that he doesn't leave people behind. Yeah, I might be giving him more credit than I should, but this is fiction and this is about heroes, and it's not uncommon for a character to be a sort of 'superman' in a show, and Shep has been used in such a way before. So, yes...his disappearance very well could have been the beginning of the end, and not just Teyla's death.

                          I guess we will know in S5 - if they find her now, after they ruined the opportunity of finding her where she was supposed to be - and if they find her because of Sheppard's help...then I'd say that his disappearance was the catalyst for all the bad that happened in TLM. However, if Teyla is found without any major influence on Sheppard's part, then I suppose it would be safe to say that Teyla's death (and the abduction of her child) was the main catalyst. Personally, I see it as a two-fold deal, both playing a part in Michael's rise - Teyla's sad end directly, and Sheppard's disappearance indirectly.

                          das
                          Last edited by dasNdanger; 11 March 2008, 10:57 PM.
                          sigpic

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I jsut don't think Sheppard was that important. yes he's always had that determination but that determination doesn't change the fact taht they didn't know where to look.

                            They only got the intel about the location after Teyla was dead. Having Sheppard there doesn't make them aware of that planet any sooner.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Fair enough. You're welcome to that opinion (and I don't mean that in the smug smartass sense). I think you're way, way off, and making a lot of wild assumptions that aren't substantiated by anything we saw in the episode, though.

                              The "lack of resources" would seem logically to have much more to do with Atlantis' inherent limitations than outside exertions. Why in the world would Caldwell -- a random ship commander -- step in, and why would he have any influence on the situation? And Sam isn't going to roll over for the IOA. She has infinitely more experience and influence with them than Sheppard. I find it highly suspect that Sheppard would somehow be a buffer to stop IOA influence (which we have no indication was even present in the situation).

                              I don't really understand what you're getting at with the Shep super-hero angle. Was he going to develop telepathy and omniscent galactic vision? Again, we're not talking about Shep being there to blow away bad guys; we're talking about him being there in the search to find her. WHY would he be so vital when he didn't have any more clue where she was than anyone else?

                              As for Shep being helpful in getting her back being a determining factor in whether or not his absence is responsible for the other timeline, that argument doesn't make any sense to me at all. I didn't think there was room for dispute in any way, shape, or form that Teyla's death and the abduction of her child is the main catalyst. That's perfectly clear in the episode. It's Teyla's child that allows Michael to complete his research, which is what casts the galaxy in darkness. Sheppard's being there wouldn't have changed anything after that point.
                              Theoretically spoilerish:
                              Spoiler:
                              Sig courtesy of Pandora.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X