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VSS
March 8th, 2008, 12:37 PM
We don't leave our people behind-
except of course if they're in the Pegasus Galaxy. Then we give them a half-built ship and say "You're on your own?".

That made no sense to me whatsoever. If the IOA and the military thought it was a losing battle, why didn't they pull the entire Atlantis crew out? That's just crazy.

I guess O'Neill's not in charge of HWS anymore.

reddevil18
March 8th, 2008, 12:47 PM
If the IOA and the military thought it was a losing battle, why didn't they pull the entire Atlantis crew out? That's just crazy.


Ummm...because Atlantis itself is still valuable and it's a defendable base?

jasminaGo
March 8th, 2008, 12:57 PM
Ummm...because Atlantis itself is still valuable and it's a defendable base?

If that is the case then why not give them the resourses they needed?

VSS
March 8th, 2008, 12:59 PM
Ummm...because Atlantis itself is still valuable and it's a defendable base?

No, McKay said the IOA and the military would not send them any extra reinforcements to defend humans in another galaxy. Not that they couldn't- they wouldn't. Then they finally started pulling people out far too late.

PG15
March 8th, 2008, 03:53 PM
"Sam wouldn't take no for an answer".

Pharaoh Atem
March 8th, 2008, 03:54 PM
"Sam wouldn't take no for an answer".
yup she understood that the entire situation was our fault and we had to try to do something

P-90_177
March 8th, 2008, 03:56 PM
Come to think. If sam wouldn't take no for an answer, I wonder if she actually went against explicit orders.

Pharaoh Atem
March 8th, 2008, 03:57 PM
Come to think. If sam wouldn't take no for an answer, I wonder if she actually went against explicit orders.

she had a good teacher :jack:

VSS
March 8th, 2008, 03:58 PM
"Sam wouldn't take no for an answer".

Just looking for a second opinion.;)

Jumper_One
March 8th, 2008, 03:59 PM
she had a good teacher :jack:

indeed, that she had ;)

KindlyKeller
March 8th, 2008, 04:01 PM
My impression was that Sam talked them into giving her the new ship and a crew for it, but couldn't get extra military personnel or supplies beyond that.

jenks
March 8th, 2008, 04:02 PM
No, McKay said the IOA and the military would not send them any extra reinforcements to defend humans in another galaxy. Not that they couldn't- they wouldn't. Then they finally started pulling people out far too late.

They weren't willing to try and protect the human population of Pegasus, not Atlantis itself.

The_Carpenter
March 8th, 2008, 04:06 PM
Come to think. If sam wouldn't take no for an answer, I wonder if she actually went against explicit orders.


she had a good teacher :jack:


indeed, that she had ;)

Indeed, orders are worth nothing if they come from a bunch of a bunch of spineless bureaucratic cowards with no idea of how things work in the real world (Politicians I am looking at you :mckay:)

VSS
March 8th, 2008, 04:23 PM
They weren't willing to try and protect the human population of Pegasus, not Atlantis itself.

Right, but would whomever is running this show is actually risking a brand new ship and the brightest mind in two galaxies (sorry, Rodney) over that population they consider to be indefensible.

I thought we learned that lesson from Pickett's Charge.

EDIT: If you're an American, you did. ;)

The_Carpenter
March 8th, 2008, 04:32 PM
Right, but would whomever is running this show is actually risking a brand new ship and the brightest mind in two galaxies (sorry, Rodney) over that population they consider to be indefensible.

I thought we learned that lesson from Pickett's Charge.

EDIT: If you're an American, you did. ;)
Probably just to shut Carter and O'Neill up :D

Either that or she pulled a Kirk and commandeered the ship :eek:

Myles
March 8th, 2008, 04:35 PM
Probably just to shut Carter and O'Neill up :D

Either that or she pulled a Kirk and commandeered the ship :eek:

Agreed. They gave her a half done ship that took a month to complete working like 24/7. The IOA probably thought it woud take her 6 months to finish it(like it would with them) and by then they would have her out of there.

VSS
March 8th, 2008, 05:00 PM
Probably just to shut Carter and O'Neill up :D

Either that or she pulled a Kirk and commandeered the ship :eek:


Agreed. They gave her a half done ship that took a month to complete working like 24/7. The IOA probably thought it woud take her 6 months to finish it(like it would with them) and by then they would have her out of there.

Ok. I feel better now.

Xaeden
March 9th, 2008, 11:59 AM
Ummm...because Atlantis itself is still valuable and it's a defendable base?


If that is the case then why not give them the resourses they needed?

Woosley explained their logic when he said that the IOA believed that if that Michael wouldn't lanch an unprovoked attack (this was said after the Phoenix was destroyed). It does make sense. After the Wraith got done fighting with each other, he got done fighting with them, and after Sam's attacks, Michael probably didn't have enough ships to take Atlantis given that it probably still had a full supply of drones and it was protected by an Earth ship at all times. On top of that, he might not have even known where the city was and they kept a ship there just incase. Meanwhile, though, Atlantis still had a lot to offer them scientifically and unlike the Wraith who needed the city to get to Earth, Michael just wanted to conquer the galaxy so if Earth stopped getting in his way he would have no real reason to waste his resources going after a heavily defended base like that which probably would've been the end of him right then. Where as Earth either felt that they couldn't defeat him by sending all of their limited ships into an all out war in the Pegasus galaxy or weren't willing to risk the potential losses. Given that Atlantis was abandoned and not destroyed, it seems that their plan of not confronting Michael while still working to discover Atlantis' secrets worked out for them.

As for giving Sam the ship, it seemed they didn't lose all hope of defending the Humans of the galaxy until after she died. Atlantis was still giving out medical supplies and trying to help as best they could. However, once the Phoenix was lost they completely pulled back. Maybe they thought Sam had a chance and although they weren't willing to risk the Daedalus and Apollo they might've been willing to reconsider as time went on. As others have mentioned, Sam has friends in high places so her voice probably kept them going as much they did. Anyway, one thing that isn't really clear is if they gave her the Phoenix to complete by themselves or if Mckay, Zelenka, and herself were helping them if it could get done faster. Some people seem to go for the former, but the latter seems more likely to me.

reddevil18
March 9th, 2008, 12:08 PM
No, McKay said the IOA and the military would not send them any extra reinforcements to defend humans in another galaxy. Not that they couldn't- they wouldn't. Then they finally started pulling people out far too late.
What does that have to do with what I said? They effectively ended their incursions into the galaxy, but they stated their intention of staying on Atlantis, believing that Michael wouldn't attack if unprovoked. The fact that the city is still there after all that time seems to prove that. For all we know, the Tau'ri might have remained in the galaxy for a few more decades, only limited to Atlantis. And they wouldn't send resources because they couldn't. You really have to look at it objectively. They really couldn't protect the galaxy anymore, but Atlantis, coupled with a few of our ships in orbit, would still be an almost unbreakable stronghold, that is still valuable to Earth. So, they probably stayed until Atlantis just wasn't useful anymore, regardless of the whole galaxy going to hell around it. That was the whole point of the expedition - Atlantis. They didn't give them resources to help the humans of their galaxy because they weren't their people and it was, indeed, a losing battle. However, Atlantis was not. The city was a defendable base, capable of withstanding direct attacks. Attacks that wouldn't come unprovoked.

GoSpikey
March 9th, 2008, 12:14 PM
From siggy:

What do you want?
To live.
Can't help you out there. That's between you and your God. Oh, wait a minute. You are your God. That's a problem.

Apophis in Serpent's Song, right? We had that ep on telly, today. :D

VSS
March 9th, 2008, 01:34 PM
What does that have to do with what I said? They effectively ended their incursions into the galaxy, but they stated their intention of staying on Atlantis, believing that Michael wouldn't attack if unprovoked. The fact that the city is still there after all that time seems to prove that. For all we know, the Tau'ri might have remained in the galaxy for a few more decades, only limited to Atlantis. And they wouldn't send resources because they couldn't. You really have to look at it objectively. They really couldn't protect the galaxy anymore, but Atlantis, coupled with a few of our ships in orbit, would still be an almost unbreakable stronghold, that is still valuable to Earth. So, they probably stayed until Atlantis just wasn't useful anymore, regardless of the whole galaxy going to hell around it. That was the whole point of the expedition - Atlantis. They didn't give them resources to help the humans of their galaxy because they weren't their people and it was, indeed, a losing battle. However, Atlantis was not. The city was a defendable base, capable of withstanding direct attacks. Attacks that wouldn't come unprovoked.

Sure, I agree with all that, but why let "National Treasure" Carter and the Phoenix go up in flames? She wasn't defending Atlantis. They shouldn't have given her anything at all for the purpose of defending the other humans in the galaxy- OR they should have given her enough to have a chance to win. McKay didn't say there was some big threat in the Milky Way that was taking up all the other resources. They gave her just enough to fight but not win. That's dumb.

Gosh, it reminds me of the US's early days in Iraq.


Apophis in Serpent's Song, right? We had that ep on telly, today. :D

Correct you are. One of the best O'Neill jabs ever.:)

reddevil18
March 9th, 2008, 01:43 PM
Sure, I agree with all that, but why let "National Treasure" Carter and the Phoenix go up in flames? She wasn't defending Atlantis. They shouldn't have given her anything at all for the purpose of defending the other humans in the galaxy- OR they should have given her enough to have a chance to win. McKay didn't say there was some big threat in the Milky Way that was taking up all the other resources. They gave her just enough to fight but not win. That's dumb.

Gosh, it reminds me of the US's early days in Iraq. Well, it was made clear that they didn't want to give her ANYTHING. But the girl's got connections. However, I doubt Jack or Hammond or anyone else could get the IOA and the USAF to fully back her with all of their might. They just gave her enough to shut her up, but hoping at the same time the she WILL make a difference. Still, they gave her an unfinished ship, showing that their priority was Atlantis. They wouldn't let the Apollo and Daedalus get used for anything else. If one of them was destroyed, it would have been bad, because the Phoenix wouldn't be completed.
So, it was sort of "Here, your boyfriend pulled enough strings to get you this ship. Do your best to hinder Michael's efforts, because we really CANNOT give you anything else". You really have to look at it objectively. Atlantis is the priority. They need one ship to guard the city, one for resupply and one in the Milky Way. They really gave her everything they could. You might think that they could have just sent 2-3-4 ships all at once, similar to what they did with the Asurans. But they just couldn't risk it. What if they lost all of them at once?

VSS
March 9th, 2008, 01:56 PM
Well, it was made clear that they didn't want to give her ANYTHING. But the girl's got connections. However, I doubt Jack or Hammond or anyone else could get the IOA and the USAF to fully back her with all of their might. They just gave her enough to shut her up, but hoping at the same time the she WILL make a difference. Still, they gave her an unfinished ship, showing that their priority was Atlantis. They wouldn't let the Apollo and Daedalus get used for anything else. If one of them was destroyed, it would have been bad, because the Phoenix wouldn't be completed.
So, it was sort of "Here, your boyfriend pulled enough strings to get you this ship. Do your best to hinder Michael's efforts, because we really CANNOT give you anything else". You really have to look at it objectively. Atlantis is the priority. They need one ship to guard the city, one for resupply and one in the Milky Way. They really gave her everything they could. You might think that they could have just sent 2-3-4 ships all at once, similar to what they did with the Asurans. But they just couldn't risk it. What if they lost all of them at once?

If Atlantis was the priority, then that's what she should have been defending. That's my point. Everything else was just a suicide mission, authorized by the Pentagon. If they didn't care about the rest of the galaxy, why waste the best and brightest and one of only four ships on it? Makes no sense. Play to win or don't play.

reddevil18
March 9th, 2008, 02:13 PM
If Atlantis was the priority, then that's what she should have been defending. That's my point. Everything else was just a suicide mission, authorized by the Pentagon. If they didn't care about the rest of the galaxy, why waste the best and brightest and one of only four ships on it? Makes no sense. Play to win or don't play.What's so hard to understand? Atlantis was the IOA's priority. But Sam wanted to help the rest of the galaxy, so she most likely went crying to Jack and Hammond. They were able to convince TPTB to give her a ship, in order to shut her up. They probably felt that she wouldn't win, but that she'd manage to destroy a few ships, without getting herself blown up(obviously, that didn't work out as planned). A "keep her busy" approach. Seriously, you see this in real life all the time. I actually like that they did this. The IOA doesn't want to risk anything. Sam pulls some strings, but not enough to get a full scale war started. The end.

Xaeden
March 9th, 2008, 02:19 PM
If Atlantis was the priority, then that's what she should have been defending. That's my point. Everything else was just a suicide mission, authorized by the Pentagon. If they didn't care about the rest of the galaxy, why waste the best and brightest and one of only four ships on it? Makes no sense. Play to win or don't play.

Because they didn't entirely stop caring until after the Phoenix was destroyed. As reddevil18 mentioned, they needed a ship to defend Atlantis, they needed one to resupply it, and they needed something in the Milky Way to aid Sg missions and defend Earth should a threat arrise at a moment's notice. They weren't willing or completely able to commit all of their limited resources to fighting an offensive war, but they seemed to think there was still hope for the people of the Pegasus galaxy (or more accurately, they were convinced to go along with that idea). That's why, in addition to the Phoenix, they were still sending people through the gate to help the people out there. That all stopped with the loss of the Phoenix. Giving her the ship wasn't a hopeless situation. She had a chance, just like they had a chance when they sent people through the gate to combat a galaxy full of Goa'uld and Wraith. But they weren't willing to risk everything to back her up as if they lost everything Atlantis would be at risk. You don't fight a war by being all in, you keep things in reserve not just to counter, but to defend your current holdings. After the Phoenix was destroyed, which they obviously didn't want to happen, they had to reaccess the situation and since they never felt they had the resources to do anything to begin with, and any hope of fighting a gorilla war failed, they tried to remove themselves from any conflict so they could continue to utilize Atlantis.

VSS
March 9th, 2008, 02:28 PM
What's so hard to understand? Atlantis was the IOA's priority. But Sam wanted to help the rest of the galaxy, so she most likely went crying to Jack and Hammond. They were able to convince TPTB to give her a ship, in order to shut her up. They probably felt that she wouldn't win, but that she'd manage to destroy a few ships, without getting herself blown up(obviously, that didn't work out as planned). A "keep her busy" approach. Seriously, you see this in real life all the time. I actually like that they did this. The IOA doesn't want to risk anything. Sam pulls some strings, but not enough to get a full scale war started. The end.

That part in bold is news to me. McKay clearly portrayed her battle as a lost cause, a noble gesture. The entire ep revolved around that concept, as a matter of fact.


Because they didn't entirely stop caring until after the Phoenix was destroyed. As reddevil18 mentioned, they needed a ship to defend Atlantis, they needed one to resupply it, and they needed something in the Milky Way to aid Sg missions and defend Earth should a threat arrise at a moment's notice. They weren't willing or completely able to commit all of their limited resources to fighting an offensive war, but they seemed to think there was still hope for the people of the Pegasus galaxy (or more accurately, they were convinced to go along with that idea). That's why, in addition to the Phoenix, they were still sending people through the gate to help the people out there. That all stopped with the loss of the Phoenix. Giving her the ship wasn't a hopeless situation. She had a chance, just like they had a chance when they sent people through the gate to combat a galaxy full of Goa'uld and Wraith. But they weren't willing to risk everything to back her up as if they lost everything Atlantis would be at risk. You don't fight a war by being all in, you keep things in reserve not just to counter, but to defend your current holdings. After the Phoenix was destroyed, which they obviously didn't want to happen, they had to reaccess the situation and since they never felt they had the resources to do anything to begin with, and any hope of fighting a gorilla war failed, they tried to remove themselves from any conflict so they could continue to utilize Atlantis.

Re: Your first bold: McKay said the IOA and the military didn't want to waste time on the humans of the Pegasus galaxy.

Re: your second bold, if that's true, (which I agree it was) why send any resources in the first place? Back to square one.:)

EDIT: P.S. I'm done discussing now. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;)

Xaeden
March 9th, 2008, 02:44 PM
Re: Your first bold: McKay said the IOA and the military didn't want to waste time on the humans of the Pegasus galaxy.

Re: your second bold, if that's true, (which I agree it was) why send any resources in the first place? Back to square one.:)

You missed the point in-between. I said that it was no more a hopeless cause to send something in the first place than it was to send ground troops against space fairing races that controlled the galaxy. There was a chance that small numbers could win out and Sam probably championed that cause which was heard because of her background with that in Sg-1. However, they did not have the resources to launch an all out war and defend/supply/backup everything they wanted to. You send everything you have at Michael and Atlantis starves, Atlantis is open to a surprise attack, Sg teams are in greater danger without a ship to come aid them when needed, Earth is less defended should an enemy arrise, and if you ultimately lose that war then you are left with nothing then what hope is there for Atlantis? There is such a thing as spreading yourself too thin and they are already in that situation given that they are in two galaxies when they only have 4 ships. They may not have felt they had the resources to launch an offensive against Michael to begin with, but they tried because there was a chance, a chance that they were convinced into like Earth has been convinced into action for years by Hammond, Laundry, and Weir, but a chance that was ultimately lost when the Phoenix was lost.

reddevil18
March 9th, 2008, 02:45 PM
That part in bold is news to me. McKay clearly portrayed her battle as a lost cause, a noble gesture. The entire ep revolved around that concept, as a matter of fact. And how is McKay's statement in contradiction with what I said? A lost cause, as in she couldn't actually save the galaxy, not that she was doomed herself.


Re: your second bold, if that's true, (which I agree it was) why send any resources in the first place? Back to square one.:) WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? The woman knows people in high places. She pulled some strings, but that still wasn't enough to make people take away the resources needed to protect Atlantis itself.


EDIT: P.S. I'm done discussing now. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. ;)Yes, good strategy. Keep ignoring completely reasonable and plausible explanations...:rolleyes: