PDA

View Full Version : Ark of Truth plotholes & Continuity errors (with Spoilers)



AscendedThor
March 5th, 2008, 08:40 PM
Morgan says that it's enough to turn just one Prior and it would effect all the Priors because they're all connected telepathically.

But in season 9 Teal'c convinced Garak (when he was a Prior) to turn against the Ori. it didn't effect any other Priors. Also Garak burst into flames, and it was said it was because the Priors' brains were programmed by the Ori to do that so that a Prior would die if he ever turns against the Ori. It didn't happen in the movie either.


Another plot hole is Tomin's story. Tomin already turned against the Ori in season 10, so it seems strange that in the movie they have to again convince him to turn against them.
he already betrayed his Prior to save Vala. It is highly unlikely the Prior would not know about this and would put Tomin as a commander in the army again.

Jeffala
March 5th, 2008, 09:51 PM
Tomin didn't turn against the Ori, he believed that the one-eyed Prior was mis-interpreting the Book of Origin.

mickhhh
March 6th, 2008, 09:43 AM
Garak was in another galaxy.

wolverine_nl
March 6th, 2008, 09:53 AM
Tomin didn't turn against the Ori, he believed that the one-eyed Prior was mis-interpreting the Book of Origin.

He didnt turn indeed, and it wasnt the prior with the one eye who mis-interpreted the book of origin, it was the same prior that was normal in the beginning of S9 and that was leader of the village Vala was burned in (when in another persons body)

Ladyinred
March 6th, 2008, 10:05 AM
Morgan says that it's enough to turn just one Prior and it would effect all the Priors because they're all connected telepathically.

Using the Ark. Usage of the Ark is the key here. As you saw in the movie, it was the light from the Ark which went through all the Priors' staffs.

david2708
March 6th, 2008, 12:48 PM
The first prior snuffed out in the film early on is suddenly seen manning the bridge of an Ori ship firing on the Deddy toward the end of the film when all the priors suddenly 'see the light'. He's arisen, i suppose.

Jeffala
March 6th, 2008, 07:15 PM
He didnt turn indeed, and it wasnt the prior with the one eye who mis-interpreted the book of origin, it was the same prior that was normal in the beginning of S9 and that was leader of the village Vala was burned in (when in another persons body)

I thought it was the one-eyed one since he was always so pissy.

JohnRico
March 6th, 2008, 08:14 PM
When Teal'c convinced Garak to turn his back on the Ori the Ori were alive to take Garak away. But when Daniel used The Ark Of Truth on the Priors the Ori were dead & Adria was kept busy that is why none of the Ori in The Ark Of Truth burned into flames. It is not a plot hole & it is quite simple really

AscendedThor
March 6th, 2008, 10:37 PM
The first prior snuffed out in the film early on is suddenly seen manning the bridge of an Ori ship firing on the Deddy toward the end of the film when all the priors suddenly 'see the light'. He's arisen, i suppose.

You're right! but maybe it was his twin Prior brother

Mister Oragahn
March 7th, 2008, 06:59 AM
When Teal'c convinced Garak to turn his back on the Ori the Ori were alive to take Garak away. But when Daniel used The Ark Of Truth on the Priors the Ori were dead & Adria was kept busy that is why none of the Ori in The Ark Of Truth burned into flames. It is not a plot hole & it is quite simple really

So you mean the failsafe was a sort of eye spy camera, enabling ascended beings to monitor what the priors were doing in another galaxy, and when they saw that Gerak's power and decision were used to protect Earth against the Ori, the Ori pressed a kind of button and set him on flames?

JohnRico
March 7th, 2008, 09:58 AM
So you mean the failsafe was a sort of eye spy camera, enabling ascended beings to monitor what the priors were doing in another galaxy, and when they saw that Gerak's power and decision were used to protect Earth against the Ori, the Ori pressed a kind of button and set him on flames?

No I simply mean that in The Ark of Truth the Ori were not alive to "kill" any Priors that betrayed them like they were with the guy from Iron Eagle

Ladyinred
March 7th, 2008, 11:36 AM
No I simply mean that in The Ark of Truth the Ori were not alive to "kill" any Priors that betrayed them like they were with the guy from Iron Eagle

Exactly. Some people seem to completely forget about this "little" fact.

Hypochondriac
March 7th, 2008, 02:38 PM
IIRC the Ori can't affect anything in the MW galaxy. So they weren't directly responsible for the Prior's death. So those Priors should have died. Wouldn't have mattered if the Ori were alive or dead the feature was programed into the Priors

Drax
March 7th, 2008, 07:14 PM
I was wondering what happened to Adria when she just left Vala in the throne room with the Ark. Apparently something important she was up to that I missed?

jenks
March 7th, 2008, 07:32 PM
Morgan was distracting her.

Drax
March 7th, 2008, 08:25 PM
Oh, I see.

Mister Oragahn
March 8th, 2008, 06:17 AM
No I simply mean that in The Ark of Truth the Ori were not alive to "kill" any Priors that betrayed them like they were with the guy from Iron Eagle

Which is why I suggested the Ori spyed on their troops, probably using the staff as a "camera" of some sort.
It would largely help to explain what happens when a Prior disobeys, since a basic machine couldn't make head and tails about the action and intent of a Prior. Only a mind could judge his actions and see what he has done.

Each staff would be like a palantir, if you want.

This would mean the failsafe was not automatic, and just a kill switch system tied to a camera and a transgalactic radio.

jrd231
March 11th, 2008, 02:36 PM
One of the coolest things I noticed, and haven't seen mentioned here yet is when they showed the flashback in the beginning to the Alterans, which was pretty neat by the way, the Alteran who invented the Ark of Truth goes back to get his notebook, then the Alterans turn tail and leave in their ship, presumably for the Milky Way galaxy. He makes reference to a dream he had the night before while picking up the book and if you pay attention and pause it like I did, you see his plans for inventing the Stargate. If it hadn't been invented yet, was invented by him, and he left the Galaxy before he invented it, how are there Stargates in the Ori Galaxy?

Unless I'm mistaken and there aren't Stargates in the Ori Galaxy, although I thought there was. Even still, it was quite a cool tidbit to throw into the movie, letting everybody see the guy who invented the gate.

Oma Yksilo
March 11th, 2008, 02:37 PM
Don't recall seeing any of them.. but I suppose they had to get the plans for the supergate from somewhere!

Mitchell82
March 11th, 2008, 02:42 PM
One of the coolest things I noticed, and haven't seen mentioned here yet is when they showed the flashback in the beginning to the Alterans, which was pretty neat by the way, the Alteran who invented the Ark of Truth goes back to get his notebook, then the Alterans turn tail and leave in their ship, presumably for the Milky Way galaxy. He makes reference to a dream he had the night before while picking up the book and if you pay attention and pause it like I did, you see his plans for inventing the Stargate. If it hadn't been invented yet, was invented by him, and he left the Galaxy before he invented it, how are there Stargates in the Ori Galaxy?

Unless I'm mistaken and there aren't Stargates in the Ori Galaxy, although I thought there was. Even still, it was quite a cool tidbit to throw into the movie, letting everybody see the guy who invented the gate.
There are no gates in the Ori galaxy only a Supergate.

Integrabyte
March 11th, 2008, 02:56 PM
There are no gates in the Ori galaxy only a Supergate.

A supergate built with Ascended being knowledge. I fail to see what the first post is about. I mean clearly in AOT the resistance leader is shocked to be on board a ship. We've seen throughout S10 that the ORI kept their children in the dark with nothing except the book of ORIGIN. No gates, no showers, no nothing.

Mitchell82
March 11th, 2008, 02:58 PM
A supergate built with Ascended being knowledge. I fail to see what the first post is about. I mean clearly in AOT the resistance leader is shocked to be on board a ship. We've seen throughout S10 that the ORI kept their children in the dark with nothing except the book of ORIGIN. No gates, no showers, no nothing.

My point exactly you just said it way better.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 11th, 2008, 03:01 PM
There are no gates in the Ori galaxy only a Supergate.

One wonders how the Priors were made to emerge from the Milky Way stargates then, as in 'Origin'. Perhaps the Ori formed the wormhole on their end with their powers (technically not breaking the Ancients' rules as it would be in their own galaxy), connected to a stargate on the other end, and sent the Priors through. Or there's an unseen stargate on their planet, built with Ori knowledge.

wolverine_nl
March 11th, 2008, 03:57 PM
If they can build supergates, they can also build smaller ones to get here, they can build their own powerdevices to dail from that distance.
I dont get the initial post, no continuity error there :S

peragrin
March 11th, 2008, 05:09 PM
There is however a Continuity error in AOT, while the gates are a mystery there is a error there. There is most likely some form of transport between worlds, possibly even by stargate/rings/something else. Tomin knew the star configurations of at least two different worlds. And the Priors had to have traveled through something.

The real error though is the supergate is no longer orbiting a block hole. Watch the scenes with the supergate, the gate was built in front of a black hole for powering it yet you can see stars very clearly behind it. Something that shouldn't happen near a black hole which can bend light.

s09119
March 11th, 2008, 05:15 PM
We know there are stargates in the Ori galaxy (how else could a rumor spread across several worlds?), we just haven't seen any. The writers probably just didn't feel like making up a whole new gate design.

Integrabyte
March 11th, 2008, 05:18 PM
We know from S10 that the ORI used ring platforms (was it Line in Sand where that scout ship deploys the platform? ). In AOT we see how Daniel, Vala, and Tomin are transported to Celestis. I do not see why the Priors could not use those ships too :P

Integrabyte
March 11th, 2008, 05:20 PM
We know there are stargates in the Ori galaxy (how else could a rumor spread across several worlds?), we just haven't seen any. The writers probably just didn't feel like making up a whole new gate design.

For a show that is called STARGATE, what you said does not make any sense :P.

jenks
March 11th, 2008, 05:23 PM
There is however a Continuity error in AOT, while the gates are a mystery there is a error there. There is most likely some form of transport between worlds, possibly even by stargate/rings/something else. Tomin knew the star configurations of at least two different worlds. And the Priors had to have traveled through something.

The real error though is the supergate is no longer orbiting a block hole. Watch the scenes with the supergate, the gate was built in front of a black hole for powering it yet you can see stars very clearly behind it. Something that shouldn't happen near a black hole which can bend light.

Why wouldn't we be able to see stars just because a black holes gravity can bend light? We'd still be able to see them, they just wouldn't appear in the place that they actually are, if that makes sense...

kymeric
March 11th, 2008, 06:50 PM
Seems like the the humans of the Ori galaxy travel on ships from world to world. They didnt show any planetary gates in the movie or in the show. And why wouldnt they have just gated to celestsis if they had them?

If they had gates i bet they looked just like their rings. Just bigger. White with glowing ancient writing on them.

2ndgenerationalteran
March 12th, 2008, 12:44 AM
Pre-DJ and Vala intervention, either the ori galaxy rings are just insanely powerful and can bring people across stars, the priors used ships, or there were stargates but held far from people and restricted. The nox had knowlege of building gates and they are preascension level of tech, the Ori are ascended beings capable of making stargates 300-400 meters across and powered by a black hole they are certainly capable of making the regular stargates.

2ndgenerationalteran
March 12th, 2008, 12:59 AM
I dont think Tealc had Gerrak entirely convinced, i think he just got him to see that what he is doing is wrong, and not to repeat the path of the Gould. Either way the arc through the individual would make the crystal in the staff link every prior.

Tomin betrayed their trust but he could have covered up his tracks. Hell he could have said she was taken to the surface and killed in the village and the soldiers would be punished but not him directly. Plus the prior may have done some psychic purging (however ineffective it may have been) reclaiming him in some sorts.

The plot hole i have a problem with was the fleet at earth not attacking us for the longest time.

morjana
March 12th, 2008, 01:03 AM
Here's a screencap of the notebook:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/ark/notebook.jpg

And one reversed 180:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/morjana/ark/notebook1.jpg

Morjana

morjana
March 12th, 2008, 01:08 AM
Morgan says that it's enough to turn just one Prior and it would effect all the Priors because they're all connected telepathically.

I think you may have misinterpreted that.

It would only take one Prior, because they're all connected to their staffs. The Ark of Truth message was sent by the ONE prior's staff to the other prior's staffs.



Another plot hole is Tomin's story. Tomin already turned against the Ori in season 10, so it seems strange that in the movie they have to again convince him to turn against them. he already betrayed his Prior to save Vala. It is highly unlikely the Prior would not know about this and would put Tomin as a commander in the army again.

Not so highly unlikely that the Prior would not know this.

The Ori, and their Priors, are NOT divine beings after all. They're not omniscient.

Morjana

peragrin
March 12th, 2008, 02:52 AM
Why wouldn't we be able to see stars just because a black holes gravity can bend light? We'd still be able to see them, they just wouldn't appear in the place that they actually are, if that makes sense...
Because the light is bending away from you and towards the black hole. Look up at the stars. Now look up at the stars through a glass of water. do they look the same when you bend the light funny?

jrd231
March 12th, 2008, 04:23 AM
A supergate built with Ascended being knowledge. I fail to see what the first post is about. I mean clearly in AOT the resistance leader is shocked to be on board a ship. We've seen throughout S10 that the ORI kept their children in the dark with nothing except the book of ORIGIN. No gates, no showers, no nothing.

It's true we never see any, but I'm assuming in order for Priors to travel to different worlds from Celestis, they would use Stargates.

Mister Oragahn
March 12th, 2008, 05:11 AM
There are no gates in the Ori galaxy only a Supergate.

Yes, that has to be stupid as well.

Not only have the staffers missed a formidable opportunity to show a stargate, but Ori style (seriously, what a letdown, just like the whole Ori part in fact), but there's no way they could have sent a Prior to the Milky Way through a standard stargate, before building a super one, without having a standard stargate on their side.

There's also the obvious fact that to make a new stargate, you need to precisely know the dimensions of the standard stargate, unless you're an ascended being and don't care about atomic dimension.
But any matter will be at pain with an smaller or bigger stargate connected to a standard one.
Either you may end smaller or bigger, and probably die because no matter how formidable a stargate is, it can't suddenly rewrite a species's entire DNA. Or if your own stargate was too big, you may come out in the Milky Way with a leg stuck in the lower segment of a standard stargate, which has to suck somehow. And so, when you pop out of the event horizon, you're either one legged, or without feet, or missing an arm, or missing your head... or you're stuck inside the stargate, and you die when the wormhole disconnects.

It's very simple. The Ori had to know the EXACT schematics of a stargate.
The Ori not having stargates of their own was just a sad decision, and that **** having drawn such a naive schematic on his notebook... did they really need to put that in? I mean, screwing with stargate's coolness even more?

Couldn't just they keep the mystery? Nooo... that's the problem with fat handed twats, they can't keep think they can add more to the canon, enforce their own view, kill mystery for more fanboy material, and in the end, it has 50% chances to suck.

Thank you guys, just thank you.

Mister Oragahn
March 12th, 2008, 05:14 AM
We know there are stargates in the Ori galaxy (how else could a rumor spread across several worlds?), we just haven't seen any. The writers probably just didn't feel like making up a whole new gate design.

Yeah, just like they didn't feel writing a decent plot for a $7 million budget TV film.
As for communication, maybe the resistance uses ancient stones to communicate, or something. We know they have "caches" of ancient stuff.

peragrin
March 12th, 2008, 06:23 AM
It's very simple. The Ori had to know the EXACT schematics of a stargate.
The Ori not having stargates of their own was just a sad decision, and that **** having drawn such a naive schematic on his notebook... did they really need to put that in? I mean, screwing with stargate's coolness even more?

Couldn't just they keep the mystery? Nooo... that's the problem with fat handed twats, they can't keep think they can add more to the canon, enforce their own view, kill mystery for more fanboy material, and in the end, it has 50% chances to suck.

Thank you guys, just thank you.The stargates aren't that specific. The Tolloana gate was slightly smaller than a standard gate, yet travel through it was fine. You are right though it has to be close.

Also the plague that wiped out all life that the Dakara Weapon replaced had to have come from somewhere. Since the Ori plague was very close in design to plague Anya carried It is likely the Ori found the Alteran's by ship millions of years ago. In the battle even the ori soldiers were killed by the plague, one of them either sent the message about the gates, or made it home with knowledge of the gates.

The Ori stated that the Alteran's had hid us from them. that statement alone has a large mystery behind it.

kymeric
March 12th, 2008, 07:32 AM
There wasnt a black hole, in beachhead they said the planet collapsed into a singularity to power the gate indefinately. Maybe they just used a blackhole in a unrelated location to form the MW gate. Both super gates should have a self contained powersource.

Weapons To Maximum
March 12th, 2008, 07:37 AM
They have stargates in the Ori Galaxy. In the Ark room at the end of the Movie there are two paintings on the wall. One is of a Prior and some humans and the other is of a group of humans exiting a stargate. It looks to be similar to one of the Milky Way Gates.

PegasusGalaxy
March 12th, 2008, 07:50 AM
I noticed two problems that I at least think are Continuity errors. One was Vala told Daniel that she saw seven symbols light up on the Ark of Truth. Origon, however, is only six.

Also, Vala was directly facing the Ark when she briefly saw it light up so how did she see the lights on the opposite side from where she was? It seems she might have walked over there but as I recall the lights were already out by the time she got there so how'd she see the opposite side?

Anyway, that's all I noticed. I thought the movie was fun overall, very Lord of the Rings in the opening scene which they were probably going for and it was fun how the Prior at the SGC seemed to be channeling Emperor Palpetine for a bit. :)

jenks
March 12th, 2008, 08:23 AM
They have stargates in the Ori Galaxy. In the Ark room at the end of the Movie there are two paintings on the wall. One is of a Prior and some humans and the other is of a group of humans exiting a stargate. It looks to be similar to one of the Milky Way Gates.

Isn't it a painting of the Ori conquest in the Milky Way?

Weapons To Maximum
March 12th, 2008, 09:25 AM
It's possible that's what it is. It's hard to tell. I tried zooming in on it and the picture was garbage. I had assumed the artwork in Celestis would pre date the war with Milky Way. Could be wrong though.

Zevan
March 12th, 2008, 10:31 AM
One of the coolest things I noticed, and haven't seen mentioned here yet is when they showed the flashback in the beginning to the Alterans, which was pretty neat by the way, the Alteran who invented the Ark of Truth goes back to get his notebook, then the Alterans turn tail and leave in their ship, presumably for the Milky Way galaxy. He makes reference to a dream he had the night before while picking up the book and if you pay attention and pause it like I did, you see his plans for inventing the Stargate. If it hadn't been invented yet, was invented by him, and he left the Galaxy before he invented it, how are there Stargates in the Ori Galaxy?

Unless I'm mistaken and there aren't Stargates in the Ori Galaxy, although I thought there was. Even still, it was quite a cool tidbit to throw into the movie, letting everybody see the guy who invented the gate.

That scene doesnt neccesarilly mean the Stargate was created after the Alterans left their home galaxy.. The "great idea" Amelias had could've been something else entirely, the drawings on the notebook could have been done long before that..

All that scene established was that Amelias is the creator of the Stargate~


Also, I checked back.. on Season 9 Episode 19 (Crusade), the one where Vala gets in Daniels body and explains the Ori situation.. She said Tomin found her near the "RINGS".. Whether its the smaller rings or the Stargate is anyones guess though..

TheGreatLordGeorge
March 12th, 2008, 12:09 PM
i only noticed two foul ups, and one was just more of an irk.


1) The bridge of the odyssey. It used to be on the front on the ship, now it looks like cannons there. Also, there is now a tower, where i believe the bridge is. that could just be an upgrade though.

2) This on really irked me. According to the description ,the Sangraal didn't kill the Ori, it just inhibited there power to interfere with the lower levels. if that were the case they would not be dead just powerless. If that were the case and the Sangraal was still working, wouldn't Morgan Le Fay and Adria also be affected?

Great movie though

Shan Bruce Lee
March 12th, 2008, 12:19 PM
I noticed two problems that I at least think are Continuity errors. One was Vala told Daniel that she saw seven symbols light up on the Ark of Truth. Origon, however, is only six.


But not when it's spelled in Ancient :)

Shan Bruce Lee
March 12th, 2008, 12:22 PM
i only noticed two foul ups, and one was just more of an irk.


1) The bridge of the odyssey. It used to be on the front on the ship, now it looks like cannons there. Also, there is now a tower, where i believe the bridge is. that could just be an upgrade though.

I don't remember the bridge ever being at the front of the ship.


2) This on really irked me. According to the description ,the Sangraal didn't kill the Ori, it just inhibited there power to interfere with the lower levels. if that were the case they would not be dead just powerless. If that were the case and the Sangraal was still working, wouldn't Morgan Le Fay and Adria also be affected?

Great movie though

I don't remember that either. But it sounds like you're talking about the anti-prior device.

Mister Oragahn
March 12th, 2008, 04:01 PM
The stargates aren't that specific. The Tolloana gate was slightly smaller than a standard gate, yet travel through it was fine. You are right though it has to be close.

No no, it has to be exactly the same. Nothing proves the tollan one was different. At best, the ring was slimmer, but the inner diameter has to be exactly the same. It's a question of particle size, really.


Also the plague that wiped out all life that the Dakara Weapon replaced had to have come from somewhere. Since the Ori plague was very close in design to plague Anya carried It is likely the Ori found the Alteran's by ship millions of years ago. In the battle even the ori soldiers were killed by the plague, one of them either sent the message about the gates, or made it home with knowledge of the gates.

No, the Ori knew jack about the Milky Way until Vala and Daniel screwed up.
For one of the few positive things in the film, these two ones are actually having a moment about how they'd have to assume the weight of being responsible for bringing the Ori in "our" galaxy.


The Ori stated that the Alteran's had hid us from them. that statement alone has a large mystery behind it.

Not much. The Ori were hellbent on killing the Alterans/Lantians/Others/people ascended by Oma since then.
The minute they knew where they were, they mounted their crusade and built ships.

Vala_M
March 12th, 2008, 04:05 PM
But in season 9 Teal'c convinced Garak (when he was a Prior) to turn against the Ori. it didn't effect any other Priors. Also Garak burst into flames, and it was said it was because the Priors' brains were programmed by the Ori to do that so that a Prior would die if he ever turns against the Ori. It didn't happen in the movie either.

I don't think that Teal'c convinced Gerak turn against the Ori but more along the lines of to help them. And I believe the reason that the priors and the Doci didn't go up in flames when the Ark was used was because they didn't act against the Ori like Garek did, they just stopped believing. Maybe the priors will use some kind of DNA machine to revert back to regular humans and get on with their lives at some point because inevitably, one or more of them would probably use their powers for self-gain and end up in flames.

Vala,

Dark lord me
March 12th, 2008, 04:18 PM
1) The bridge of the odyssey. It used to be on the front on the ship, now it looks like cannons there. Also, there is now a tower, where i believe the bridge is. that could just be an upgrade though.
Great movie though
that bridge was always there ..... :mckay:

TheGreatLordGeorge
March 12th, 2008, 04:26 PM
Your right, My mistake, never noticed beofore that lol

Jeffala
March 12th, 2008, 04:46 PM
Maybe the priors will use some kind of DNA machine to revert back to regular humans and get on with their lives at some point because

We've seen two instances where someone besides the Ori themselves created Priors.

Gerak: His mind may have been in Celestis, but his body was on Dekara. His body was probably modified by the Prior's staff.

Daniel: He was transformed by Adria's pendant which contained a piece of Celestis and he was able to return to his normal form so we know that it is possible.

It's possible that the Doci could devolve the Priors and return them to their prior lives, so to speak.

jenks
March 12th, 2008, 05:23 PM
No no, it has to be exactly the same. Nothing proves the tollan one was different. At best, the ring was slimmer, but the inner diameter has to be exactly the same. It's a question of particle size, really.

No no, it doesn't. Remember this? (http://www.stargatecaps.com/sg1/s5/503/html/5x03%5F546.html)

Shan Bruce Lee
March 12th, 2008, 06:49 PM
No no, it doesn't. Remember this? (http://www.stargatecaps.com/sg1/s5/503/5x03%5F547.jpg)

that page won't load for me. Is it a picture of Orlin's toastergate?

jenks
March 12th, 2008, 06:50 PM
It was indeed.

BigR
March 12th, 2008, 07:22 PM
One mistake I noticed (sort of):

When Teal'c is walking on the mountain, one shot is flipped, making his gray hair on the wrong side.

Also, when Teal'c gets shot in the back, he falls on his side, then in one shot, he's on his stomach, and ion the next on his side again

Mitchell82
March 12th, 2008, 09:59 PM
Yes, that has to be stupid as well.

Not only have the staffers missed a formidable opportunity to show a stargate, but Ori style (seriously, what a letdown, just like the whole Ori part in fact), but there's no way they could have sent a Prior to the Milky Way through a standard stargate, before building a super one, without having a standard stargate on their side.
The Ori wouldn't have needed a gate, to send the Priors here. They would have used their Ascended abilities to do so.

Vala_M
March 12th, 2008, 10:48 PM
that bridge was always there ..... :mckay:

The bridge of the Daedalus is definately in the center of the ship where the neck connects to the main part of the hull, why would the Odyssey's bridge be in a different location?

Vala,

peragrin
March 13th, 2008, 04:38 AM
The Ori wouldn't have needed a gate, to send the Priors here. They would have used their Ascended abilities to do so.The prior arrived by stargate, they would need at least one to travel by. They needed space gates to send their ships here afterall.

second as others have pointed out Orlin's Toastergate connects to a full sized stargate and allows travel even though they don't match in size.

http://www.stargatecaps.com/sg1/s5/503/html/5x03%5F530.html

Vala_M
March 13th, 2008, 11:49 AM
The prior arrived by stargate, they would need at least one to travel by. They needed space gates to send their ships here afterall.

second as others have pointed out Orlin's Toastergate connects to a full sized stargate and allows travel even though they don't match in size.

http://www.stargatecaps.com/sg1/s5/503/html/5x03%5F530.html

They will probably just destroy the Ori ships. They want to go back to living simple lives afterall.

Vala,

Mitchell82
March 13th, 2008, 01:05 PM
The prior arrived by stargate, they would need at least one to travel by. They needed space gates to send their ships here afterall.

second as others have pointed out Orlin's Toastergate connects to a full sized stargate and allows travel even though they don't match in size.

http://www.stargatecaps.com/sg1/s5/503/html/5x03%5F530.html

It's possible that there is a gate in Celestis.

Shan Bruce Lee
March 13th, 2008, 02:32 PM
I don't remember who originally posted the thing about Teal'C's stripe but it's true lol. It's only for about 5 seconds but it's definitely on the wrong side.

J_schinderlin56
March 13th, 2008, 03:43 PM
One of the coolest things I noticed, and haven't seen mentioned here yet is when they showed the flashback in the beginning to the Alterans, which was pretty neat by the way, the Alteran who invented the Ark of Truth goes back to get his notebook, then the Alterans turn tail and leave in their ship, presumably for the Milky Way galaxy. He makes reference to a dream he had the night before while picking up the book and if you pay attention and pause it like I did, you see his plans for inventing the Stargate. If it hadn't been invented yet, was invented by him, and he left the Galaxy before he invented it, how are there Stargates in the Ori Galaxy?

Unless I'm mistaken and there aren't Stargates in the Ori Galaxy, although I thought there was. Even still, it was quite a cool tidbit to throw into the movie, letting everybody see the guy who invented the gate.

The Ori were ascended, they probably figured out themselves. Or ripped off the alterren Tech. They probably ripped off the rings too.

Mitchell82
March 13th, 2008, 06:05 PM
I don't remember who originally posted the thing about Teal'C's stripe but it's true lol. It's only for about 5 seconds but it's definitely on the wrong side.

Minor makeup boo-boo IMO. What's funny is I didn't notice it on the "leaked" copy.

Jeffala
March 13th, 2008, 06:09 PM
Minor makeup boo-boo IMO. What's funny is I didn't notice it on the "leaked" copy.

What would be funny (in a totally stupid way, of course) is if the stripe is CGI or something and they paid a huge sum to add it instead of just doing it in makeup for cheap.

Mitchell82
March 13th, 2008, 06:10 PM
What would be funny (in a totally stupid way, of course) is if the stripe is CGI or something and they paid a huge sum to add it instead of just doing it in makeup for cheap.

It's not though watch the behind the scenes and there is a point where Michael has to fix his stripe.

Jeffala
March 13th, 2008, 06:43 PM
It's not though watch the behind the scenes and there is a point where Michael has to fix his stripe.

Oh poo. There goes my one bit of random stupid for the day.

Pharaoh Atem
March 13th, 2008, 06:50 PM
One mistake I noticed (sort of):

When Teal'c is walking on the mountain, one shot is flipped, making his gray hair on the wrong side.


that's the only error that really stuck out to me

Shan Bruce Lee
March 13th, 2008, 08:52 PM
that's the only error that really stuck out to me

I didn't even notice it until I saw it posted here and took the time to look for it the next time I watched the movie. It's really a "blink and you'll miss it" thing. Kinda like the Stormtrooper hitting his head in A New Hope.

Mister Oragahn
March 14th, 2008, 11:08 AM
No no, it doesn't. Remember this? (http://www.stargatecaps.com/sg1/s5/503/html/5x03%5F546.html)

He was an ascended being, pure energy. He doesn't give a damn about how big or small he's coming out on the other side, energy has no volume.

And sincerely, the less they use dwarf or giant stargates connected to standard ones, the better.

jenks
March 14th, 2008, 11:15 AM
He was an ascended being, pure energy. He doesn't give a damn about how big or small he's coming out on the other side, energy has no volume.

And sincerely, the less they use dwarf or giant stargates connected to standard ones, the better.

No he wasn't, he was a flesh and blood human.

Jeffala
March 14th, 2008, 11:53 AM
No he wasn't, he was a flesh and blood human.

Exactly. If not, why else would the Others need to help him re-ascend when he died on the planet?

Liam Kincaid
March 14th, 2008, 11:55 AM
When Teal'c convinced Garak to turn his back on the Ori the Ori were alive to take Garak away. But when Daniel used The Ark Of Truth on the Priors the Ori were dead & Adria was kept busy that is why none of the Ori in The Ark Of Truth burned into flames. It is not a plot hole & it is quite simple really
But the way Gerak explained it was that the bursting into flames thing waas programmed into them when they were made into Priors, so the direct intervention of the Ori would not be necessary. If Gerak was right, then this is a plot-hole indeed. It is possible, I suppose, that Gerak was mis-informed. I guess that is what we have to assume if we want to hold on to continuity.

Mister Oragahn
March 16th, 2008, 06:55 PM
No he wasn't, he was a flesh and blood human.

Ah, yes, I remember now. He gave up his powers.
So that leaves only one possibility: you must not make a stargate bigger than the standard ones, only a smaller one.
When Orlin got rematterialized, the disc area, representing the event horizon from the toastergate built in Sam's basement, was centered on the larger disc of the receiving stargate.
You have to make sure both event horizons share the same center, and are concentric, and that the dialing stargate must never have an event horizon larger than the one on the arrival side.

It still doesn't solve at all the problem about how they sent the Priors over there.
Anyone has a picture of the painting featuring an Ori stargate or something?

Konman72
March 16th, 2008, 08:08 PM
So that leaves only one possibility
Actually there is one other possibility...can you guess what it is?

...you're wrong

RepliVeggie
March 16th, 2008, 09:13 PM
But the way Gerak explained it was that the bursting into flames thing waas programmed into them when they were made into Priors, so the direct intervention of the Ori would not be necessary. If Gerak was right, then this is a plot-hole indeed. It is possible, I suppose, that Gerak was mis-informed. I guess that is what we have to assume if we want to hold on to continuity.


Maybe it was only programmed into Gerak cuz the Ori didn't have that much trust in him. They didn't want him to go back to fighting the Ori and have prior powers.

Mister Oragahn
March 19th, 2008, 11:39 AM
Actually there is one other possibility...can you guess what it is?

...you're wrong

Being open to argumentation, this is clearly a possibility, but you'd also have to show me where I'm wrong.

g.o.d
March 19th, 2008, 12:54 PM
it's a plot hole, nothing more. One day when Gerak turned against the Ori, he bursted into flames and in another day when Daniel turned against the Ori, nothing happened.

SG teached me one thing. Do not ever try to find logic here.

Zamboni
March 19th, 2008, 02:47 PM
Let's just assume that turning people into Priors takes a lot of power, and Ori like their power. When they first created the Priors, they thought "here's a fail safe, but since we're so powerful and there are no more people left to turn, we'll never use it and waste another ounce of our Ori powers".

But then, they found MW and Priors started bursting into flames due to excitement, and the Ori are like "Oh WTF let's just remove the fail safe the hell with the flaming Priors"!

So there you go. The Ori are as stupid as the IOA. Both have really bad backup plans.

Maedhros_Sea
March 19th, 2008, 04:18 PM
The Priors exposed to the Ark weren't acting against the priors, just learning new information. So they shouldn't have burst unless Adria chose to hit the ignite button.

Gerak acted directly against the Ori.

As for the device that ended the Ori, it was probably disengaged before Adria returned. It was aboard one of their ships, and I assume a Prior recovered and salvaged the vessel.

the error I was annoyed by was the Od cloaking upon arrival at Celestis and then being visible when the Ori arrived. Why? Did the the replicaters do this and would it not make more sense to wait until they had secured the ship.

I assume the Od used the dimensional cloak that made the undetectable and invulnerable to weapons fire in the past. Right?

g.o.d
March 20th, 2008, 07:05 AM
Let's just assume that turning people into Priors takes a lot of power, and Ori like their power. When they first created the Priors, they thought "here's a fail safe, but since we're so powerful and there are no more people left to turn, we'll never use it and waste another ounce of our Ori powers".

But then, they found MW and Priors started bursting into flames due to excitement, and the Ori are like "Oh WTF let's just remove the fail safe the hell with the flaming Priors"!

So there you go. The Ori are as stupid as the IOA. Both have really bad backup plans.

the Ori had no backup plans. Their only plan was Adria. They should have continued only with priors and simply chose one of them to became a leader of their armies. They didn't realized that Adria will have strong bonds with her mother. And that was the biggest problem.

Or one of them should have descended a lead their armies instead of Adria. And later the other Ori will help him to ascend again. Or he could ascend on his own for second time.

Konman72
March 20th, 2008, 08:42 AM
Being open to argumentation, this is clearly a possibility, but you'd also have to show me where I'm wrong.

Actually you need to show me why you are right. So far you have not put forth any evidence, merely stated your opinion as fact and said that the show was wrong. If you must have evidence that shows that you are wrong then I can merely point to the instance that you are calling a plothole and say that it is not, that would be my evidence.

We already know that a smaller gate can dial into a bigger gate, this has been shown on three separate occasions: Orlin's home-made gate, the Tollan gate (it was marginally smaller) and the Pegasus Project. The Tollan gate also shows that a larger gate can dial into a smaller gate as that is how SG-1 arrived. Considering the intelligence of the Ancients I'm sure they programmed in safeguards, one easy fix for the problem I am assuming you are fearing (an object that is larger than the receiving end stargate) I would assume that the object would be returned to the dialing gate and not allowed through. This, however is an assumption, neither one of us knows how it would work, but we do know that it does work since we have seen it.

Ruffles
March 20th, 2008, 06:33 PM
I think you may have misinterpreted that.

It would only take one Prior, because they're all connected to their staffs. The Ark of Truth message was sent by the ONE prior's staff to the other prior's staffs.

I understood the quoted part above. Once the Doci learned the truth, he communicated it through the staff weapons to the Priors in the Ori galaxy, and they learned the truth.

My understanding was the Ori needed the worship of their human followers to gain power. Once they were destroyed by the Sangraal, Adria took their place and was made powerful by the worship. When the Ark was used, her powers were gone (because of unbelief) and Morgan was now able to fight her.

Here's my question....

Why would the Priors' sudden unbelief affect the worship of the humans? True worship from the humans wouldn't be changed just because the Prior stopped believing. And someone who doesn't believe was never truly worshipping.

Did I miss something?

Mister Oragahn
March 21st, 2008, 10:53 AM
Actually you need to show me why you are right. So far you have not put forth any evidence, merely stated your opinion as fact and said that the show was wrong. If you must have evidence that shows that you are wrong then I can merely point to the instance that you are calling a plothole and say that it is not, that would be my evidence.

We already know that a smaller gate can dial into a bigger gate, this has been shown on three separate occasions: Orlin's home-made gate, the Tollan gate (it was marginally smaller) and the Pegasus Project. The Tollan gate also shows that a larger gate can dial into a smaller gate as that is how SG-1 arrived. Considering the intelligence of the Ancients I'm sure they programmed in safeguards, one easy fix for the problem I am assuming you are fearing (an object that is larger than the receiving end stargate) I would assume that the object would be returned to the dialing gate and not allowed through. This, however is an assumption, neither one of us knows how it would work, but we do know that it does work since we have seen it.

They are one way trips. Yet the stargates allow a connection.

If hole A is bigger than hole B, and if you enter hole A while moving close to the edge of hole A, what will happen when you'll get through hole B?
What will happen if, say, you fly a ship through a supergate (hole A) and try to get it through a standard gate (hole B)?

Outcomes:

1. Shrinked ship. Most stupid.

2. Reintegration forbidden, so you're stuck in the buffer. Hell, it's not even sure the standard stargate's buffer would be as big as a supergate's one.

3. You walk through the event horizon, but nothing happens. We know EHs can let light pass through (as we can see through an EH when we look at a stargate from behind).

4. You get through, but only the piece of the ship that fits through the standard stargates moves forth. Basically, you cut a 22 feet wide cylinder out of a kilometer long and multi hundred of meters wide space ship.

5. Som'thing explodes, aka Something Bad Happens.

None of which are acceptable outcomes, of course, since they're all failures.
So how do you tell me you'd get something positive out of such a premise, exactly?
How do you prove me wrong on the idea that a bigger gate could still work and allow transport to a small gate?
It doesn't even work at the theoretical level.


Again, as I retracted, the Orlin case is not grave, in the sense that gate A was smaller than gate B, so gate A's event horizon's diameter fits inside gate B's one.
As long as they're concentric, Orlin would then pop out from the middle of gate B's EH.

Stargate on Tollana: never proved to be any different. Just an impression from O'neill looking at it from an inappropriate angle. Again, it would be stupid to have such a stargate's EH be bigger or smaller than a standard stargate's EH.

Pegasus Project: They only established a connection. Never sent anything through the supergate to Pegasus.

Konman72
March 21st, 2008, 11:29 AM
They are one way trips. Yet the stargates allow a connection.

If hole A is bigger than hole B, and if you enter hole A while moving close to the edge of hole A, what will happen when you'll get through hole B?
What will happen if, say, you fly a ship through a supergate (hole A) and try to get it through a standard gate (hole B)?

Outcomes:

1. Shrinked ship. Most stupid.

2. Reintegration forbidden, so you're stuck in the buffer. Hell, it's not even sure the standard stargate's buffer would be as big as a supergate's one.

3. You walk through the event horizon, but nothing happens. We know EHs can let light pass through (as we can see through an EH when we look at a stargate from behind).

4. You get through, but only the piece of the ship that fits through the standard stargates moves forth. Basically, you cut a 22 feet wide cylinder out of a kilometer long and multi hundred of meters wide space ship.

5. Som'thing explodes, aka Something Bad Happens.

None of which are acceptable outcomes, of course, since they're all failures.
So how do you tell me you'd get something positive out of such a premise, exactly?
How do you prove me wrong on the idea that a bigger gate could still work and allow transport to a small gate?
It doesn't even work at the theoretical level.


Again, as I retracted, the Orlin case is not grave, in the sense that gate A was smaller than gate B, so gate A's event horizon's diameter fits inside gate B's one.
As long as they're concentric, Orlin would then pop out from the middle of gate B's EH.

Stargate on Tollana: never proved to be any different. Just an impression from O'neill looking at it from an inappropriate angle. Again, it would be stupid to have such a stargate's EH be bigger or smaller than a standard stargate's EH.

Pegasus Project: They only established a connection. Never sent anything through the supergate to Pegasus.
All great points but they mean nothing. My whole point was that we don't know if it is possible or what would happen. You were claiming that this was a plothole or continuity error, I am saying that it is not since nothing has been shown either way.

Unless something is shown to contradict established continuity then it is not a plothole, it is merely a question to be answered.

You are still acting like you know the answer here and that the show is the one in the wrong. Why would it be stupid for the Tollan Gate to be smaller? In saying this you are assuming that something bad would happen and that there isn't some type of failsafe against the above problems. We do not know, and therefore we cannot comment, only speculate. Thus, not a plothole.

Lt. Col. Mcoy
March 21st, 2008, 12:06 PM
1. McKay says in 'Pegasus Project' that the diameter of the gate is important, not random. He doesn't, however, define what is so important about it.

2. The Sangraal was a pulse device, 1 hit and boom. Also, it does indeed kill ascended beings. You do know what happens to canceled waves, right?

3. The 'burst into flames' thing was programmed into Gerak specifically in case he turned. They aren't worried about the other Priors, so they didn't put it in them.

Mister Oragahn
March 23rd, 2008, 03:12 AM
All great points but they mean nothing.

{mod snip}


My whole point was that we don't know if it is possible or what would happen. You were claiming that this was a plothole or continuity error, I am saying that it is not since nothing has been shown either way.

You still really don't get it.


Unless something is shown to contradict established continuity then it is not a plothole, it is merely a question to be answered.

It's called logic. There's no reason what someone or something could be allowed to travel from a bigger stargate to a smaller one, unless the Alterans were extremely dumb.


You are still acting like you know the answer here and that the show is the one in the wrong. Why would it be stupid for the Tollan Gate to be smaller?

It would be stupid because anyone coming from a bigger gate (any random standard gate) would have problems. It can't get any simpler.


In saying this you are assuming that something bad would happen and that there isn't some type of failsafe against the above problems. We do not know, and therefore we cannot comment, only speculate. Thus, not a plothole.

[mod snip} absolutely no idea about why it would actually work despite all evidence and theoretical principles that it would fail, or cause severe problems for travellers.

Konman72
March 23rd, 2008, 10:28 AM
You still really don't get it.

Right, I don't get it :rolleyes:



It's called logic. There's no reason what someone or something could be allowed to travel from a bigger stargate to a smaller one, unless the Alterans were extremely dumb.
There's no reason they couldn't since we know how extremely smart they truly were. However I must point out yet again that I am merely saying that we do not know since it has not been shown, you continuing to argue that this is a plothole just shows how truly arrogant you are.



It would be stupid because anyone coming from a bigger gate (any random standard gate) would have problems. It can't get any simpler.
But why would they necessarily have problems, that is merely your opinion. You have already been wrong once so why not be open to the possibility that you are wrong again? The Ancients were extremely intelligent and programmed in multiple safe guards into their technology so why not allow for one more...this is fiction you know? Perhaps you forgot that in fiction anything is possible. (please not how this entire time I have not said that I think you are wrong, if you don't understand why then please refer to my first response in this post)



[mod snip} absolutely no idea about why it would actually work despite all evidence and theoretical principles that it would fail, or cause severe problems for travellers.
The key word here is "evidence". You have none...move on. Theoretical principles? Of what...Stargate technology? Are there books on Stargate theory? And even if there were, which would be hilarious, it is THEORY. Your theory there is a reason you cannot call it fact, so please stop arguing as if it were.

Seriously, if you haven't gotten what I am saying by now then just drop it. I am, in no way, saying that you are wrong. But you need to be open to that possibility. Nothing has been shown to contradict this, thus it is still possible.

Here, let me show you one scenario where you are wrong...

Carter: So, we have dialed this Supergate into Earth, let's send the Puddlejumper through.
*Puddlejumper flies throught he Supergate and comes out on Earth*

THE END

If that happened in the show you would be wrong and they would be right...you know why? Because it is fiction, anything is possible. Do I think this would actually happen? That is for you to figure out.

1138
March 23rd, 2008, 03:17 PM
Again, as I retracted, the Orlin case is not grave, in the sense that gate A was smaller than gate B, so gate A's event horizon's diameter fits inside gate B's one.
As long as they're concentric, Orlin would then pop out from the middle of gate B's EH.


Or the gate determines what's possible based on the size of the object that is being sent through. If the object can be re-integrated at the destination gate, then you're good to go. If it can't, then any number of unfortunate things can happen to you. The gate system isn't a perfectly safe way to travel and never has been. All the Ori have to know to send people over is that the gates in the Milky Way allow a person to fit through it. Then they can send anything that is person-sized, regardless of what size their source gate is.

Your whole point hinges on the fact that it's impossible for the Ori to know the exact specifications of the Milky Way gates since Amelius invented them just before he left. Since we see that the Ori can send things to the MW gates, then either a) they know the specifications or b) the gates work differently than you think. Neither of which constitute plot holes. The fact that the Ori have Stargates that are fully compatible with the MW and Pegasus gates means that Amelius' invention couldn't have been completely kept from them, so option (a) works (and there are many plausible scenarios that enable the Ori to learn about the gates). And option (b) works because there is no evidence for claiming that the gates work only a certain way.

gwangung
March 23rd, 2008, 10:45 PM
Your whole point hinges on the fact that it's impossible for the Ori to know the exact specifications of the Milky Way gates since Amelius invented them just before he left. Since we see that the Ori can send things to the MW gates, then either a) they know the specifications or b) the gates work differently than you think. Neither of which constitute plot holes. The fact that the Ori have Stargates that are fully compatible with the MW and Pegasus gates means that Amelius' invention couldn't have been completely kept from them, so option (a) works (and there are many plausible scenarios that enable the Ori to learn about the gates)

Um, aren't the Ori smart enough to reverse engineer a device made by unascensed beings? Before they Ascended, they were roughly in the same league as the Ancients, so why couldn't they be able enough to reverse engineer them for their benefit (i.e. worshipers)?

Jezzalinko99au
March 24th, 2008, 02:22 AM
Sorry if what I say has been said already, I scimmed over the last 3 pages.

Point 1 - AoT with Priors

May I throw in that it was also the Doci that looked into the AoT, which being the pope-like figure, would have more effect on the rest (Possible)

Angelgrinder
March 24th, 2008, 03:26 AM
I assume the Od used the dimensional cloak that made the undetectable and invulnerable to weapons fire in the past. Right?


No. The Oddy used the standard cloak that Daniel installed whilst being a prior, which requires a ZPM to work.

Mister Oragahn
March 24th, 2008, 09:00 AM
There's no reason they couldn't since we know how extremely smart they truly were. However I must point out yet again that I am merely saying that we do not know since it has not been shown, you continuing to argue that this is a plothole just shows how truly arrogant you are.

The only way it could work is, again, if the gate analyzed if the thing to pass through was big or small enough. Energized matter travelling one way only. A bright system would therefore forbid an unsuitable object from even being sent to a smaller gate, and therefore, my point 3.
Or my option 4, you're allowed through, only because you fit within inside the diameter of the destination gate.

See, it's not because something is not shown that we can't know what would happen. I've explored most simple possibilities thus far (besides more exotic effects which would be written for the sheer one shot purpose of some random episode).
You'vep roviding none, and all you're saying is we don't know.
I just don't know what to tell you beyond that point. Do you need to crash a car into someone to know that eventually, that someone would suffer greatly from the impact?
See, it's the same logic applied here.
We know what can happen, even within the realm of SF.


But why would they necessarily have problems, that is merely your opinion.

*sigh*
Because, for frakin sake, if the stargates are all made of a given size, it's precisely because it makes sense to have a standard size.



You have already been wrong once so why not be open to the possibility that you are wrong again?

Been wrong on a wrong memory. We're not talking memories here.

Again, instead of evading the question, explain why it would work, and what would actually happen. Provide a simple case which is different from those I have listed, or just don't bother.
That "circling the point" game is tiring.


The Ancients were extremely intelligent and programmed in multiple safe guards into their technology so why not allow for one more...this is fiction you know?

Oh, yes, then remind me why you arguing with me then.
Of course it's fiction ... what a shock!


Perhaps you forgot that in fiction anything is possible. (please not how this entire time I have not said that I think you are wrong, if you don't understand why then please refer to my first response in this post)

Absurd copout. It's not because it's fiction that all rules are thrown away. If someone throws a stone in a stargate show, there's more than 100% chances sure the stone will fall, unless you insert some divine intervention event.
Same here. You have a given sized object to pass through a given sized disintegration/reintegration threshold, and this happens to the particle scale. Even if it's exotic, which it is, there are simple facts in terms of logic, which you cannot evade.


The key word here is "evidence".

Again, do you need empirical evidence to know that if you create a cube which is 1m wide, and try to fit it through a hole which is 1m wide, you're going to have a slight problem?


You have none...move on. Theoretical principles? Of what...Stargate technology?

No, mere volume concerns. It's not very hard you know.


Are there books on Stargate theory? And even if there were, which would be hilarious, it is THEORY. Your theory there is a reason you cannot call it fact, so please stop arguing as if it were.

You're just avoiding replying to the question I asked. Provide alternatives or stop bothering me with your nonsense.


Seriously, if you haven't gotten what I am saying by now then just drop it. I am, in no way, saying that you are wrong. But you need to be open to that possibility. Nothing has been shown to contradict this, thus it is still possible.

No. The only thing which will remotely "work" is option 4, and this still means that you better squeeze yourself as much as you can before getting through the inadequatedly sized stargate, and hope the sketches weren't wrong, otherwise you may end being going through a mouse sized stargate on the other end, and then you shouldn't expect anything else but your eye globe and skull and brain matter located behind making it through.
Of course, at this point, you are dead, but I suppose that in your book, it still qualifies as good. Or, somehow, you actually try to think about an outcome beyond shrinked/dilated, explosed, truncated, forbidden or stuck in buffer.

My ears are wide open, but it's already, what, second or third post of yours and there's still nothing to see.


Here, let me show you one scenario where you are wrong...

Carter: So, we have dialed this Supergate into Earth, let's send the Puddlejumper through.
*Puddlejumper flies throught he Supergate and comes out on Earth*

THE END

If that happened in the show you would be wrong and they would be right...you know why? Because it is fiction, anything is possible. Do I think this would actually happen? That is for you to figure out.

Bravo, that's my fourth option. It's nice to see you don't read much of what I say though. So yes, as I thought, nothing new here.

As you don't recall, it's a favourable scenario within option 4, where, somehow, your object is already small enough to get through the destination stargate.

Eventually, allow me to speculate that the stargate might reposition said object, relative to its EH's center, to be sure that everything fits, even if the object in question doesn't pass through the middle of the supergate's EH. But it's still option 4, with an extra.

EH = event horizon (even if it's not a true event horizon but that's another issue).

It's also very convenient of you that you picked the case of less problems. Now try to do this with a 302, and try to come with working solutions which have nothing in common with what I suggested.

Mister Oragahn
March 24th, 2008, 09:29 AM
Or the gate determines what's possible based on the size of the object that is being sent through. If the object can be re-integrated at the destination gate, then you're good to go. If it can't, then any number of unfortunate things can happen to you. The gate system isn't a perfectly safe way to travel and never has been. All the Ori have to know to send people over is that the gates in the Milky Way allow a person to fit through it. Then they can send anything that is person-sized, regardless of what size their source gate is.

Which are options I already listed.
Does anyone actually read what I type or what?
I mean, just trying before quoting me, it helps.


Your whole point hinges on the fact that it's impossible for the Ori to know the exact specifications of the Milky Way gates since Amelius invented them just before he left.

At best, and that's just oh so very convenient.
Why would the Ori even think the Alterans used Stargates?

What? They scanned Daniel and Vala's brains? They know everything they know? Funny how the Ori seemed fairly ignorant of several key things about our galaxy. But let's just don't insist on that too much.

So now the Ori know that there are stargates in the MW.

Of course, there's only one wormhole technology, and of course, the one they came with is just so compatible with the one Amelius and else invented after leaving their original galaxy. And of course, protocols are compatible as well.

It's not because you possess a seemingly vast knowledge from the upper planes that you can assemble into the very unique fashion that would result with the proper wormhole technology used in the MW.
Especially since the ascended beings are not all knowing.


Since we see that the Ori can send things to the MW gates, then either a) they know the specifications or b) the gates work differently than you think.

Or the solution you exclude: it's a mistake from the writers' part. Considering how they got some basic science principles wrong (just look at the premise for SGU), it's not surprising they'd get mere concerns about consistency (which has been very loose lately) and volumes messed up.


Neither of which constitute plot holes. The fact that the Ori have Stargates that are fully compatible with the MW and Pegasus gates means that Amelius' invention couldn't have been completely kept from them, so option (a) works (and there are many plausible scenarios that enable the Ori to learn about the gates).

Despite knowing jack **** about the Milky Way, the survival of the Alterans and where they landed. Or some fan made complicated scenarion where, somehow, the Ori got the exact blueprints of a stargate in the mailbox, not knowing where it come from, and of course, for some reason, only get this information only, nothing else.

This mind brothel would have been easily avoided (and would have opened the gates for more milkable material) if the writers had not attempted to explain the origin of the stargates in such a na´ve and juvenile way, with a scientist drawing a stargate, with the box, six coordinates and even the twirling vortex, of course!
Ah, but, well, since it comes from a real stinky film, that's no surprise, really, that the treatment the stargate mythology got was just so awful.
Approximatively for the same reason that a certain lack of imagination, and understanding of the principle of mystery, you know, prevented those god brillant writers from using those seven million dollars to actually create some new stuff about the Ori.


And option (b) works because there is no evidence for claiming that the gates work only a certain way.

I base this from what was shown in the show. If you think of other positively working solution, be my guest.

Konman72
March 24th, 2008, 05:22 PM
Mister Oragahn, I think we have a communication problem here. Your original point was that you could not have a larger gate connect to a smaller gate (actually your very first point was that all gates had to be the exact same size which you were subsequently proven wrong about). This is what I have been arguing against. Since then you have thrown out ways for it to actually work, thus we are both right here. I merely wanted you to admit that you could be wrong and that a larger gate could connect to a smaller gate, you have done this, though you continued to argue with me since you seemed to be missing my point, so thank you. We both agree that there is the possibility for great disaster if an item larger than the receiving gate were to travel through a supergate, but that is not my point at all.

You were wrong, you have admitted it (in your own way), let's leave it at that. I hope that you learn from this and are more open to the possibility that your opinion could be wrong in the future.

P.S. Your points about the Ori not knowing the exact dimensions of the stargates...


The Ori, after they ascended later on down the timeline, gained the knowledge of how to build the Supergate.
Robert Cooper answers questions (http://stargate-sg1-solutions.com/blog/?p=1192)

1138
March 24th, 2008, 07:27 PM
Which are options I already listed.
Does anyone actually read what I type or what?
I mean, just trying before quoting me, it helps.


Nope. Not part of your options. You say that it's impossible for a larger gate to connect to a smaller gate. That is your argument, stick with it.



At best, and that's just oh so very convenient.
Why would the Ori even think the Alterans used Stargates?

It's already been established that the Ori and the Alterans kept communication devices in both galaxies. How much of a stretch is it that someone could have used one?

Or maybe the fact that the Ori are ascended and once they found out about the Milky Way, did a little snooping.

Use your brain, for crying out loud. It's not a plot hole if it can be explained within the logic of the show.



What? They scanned Daniel and Vala's brains? They know everything they know? Funny how the Ori seemed fairly ignorant of several key things about our galaxy. But let's just don't insist on that too much.

Or any number of other options. Long range subspace scanning. Ascended snooping. This is ridiculous.



So now the Ori know that there are stargates in the MW.

Of course, there's only one wormhole technology, and of course, the one they came with is just so compatible with the one Amelius and else invented after leaving their original galaxy. And of course, protocols are compatible as well.


The fact that they are compatible shows that they know about them and it's not a plot hole. This is stuff a 6 year old can figure out.



It's not because you possess a seemingly vast knowledge from the upper planes that you can assemble into the very unique fashion that would result with the proper wormhole technology used in the MW.
Especially since the ascended beings are not all knowing.

They don't have to be all knowing. That's a logical fallacy right there.




Or the solution you exclude: it's a mistake from the writers' part. Considering how they got some basic science principles wrong (just look at the premise for SGU), it's not surprising they'd get mere concerns about consistency (which has been very loose lately) and volumes messed up.

Right, of all the different options available to explain it, you choose the one that just happens to reinforce your worldview. It's not a plot hole if it can be explained within the internal logic of the story. Get that through your head or at least try. I realize your grasp of logic isn't very good, but I give points for effort. Get enough points and you might earn yourself a gold star.

[snip rest of garbage]



I base this from what was shown in the show. If you think of other positively working solution, be my guest.

I already did, you're just incapable of comprehending it. You made a specific claim that you failed to back up with sufficient evidence but you don't have the self esteem to admit it. You're not even arguing objectively. "Oooh, the movie sucked, there's a plot hole because it sucked so badly!!" Even when it's shown to you that it's not a plot hole, you persist. This is a sign of either insanity or a learning disability. Take your pick.



You were wrong, you have admitted it (in your own way), let's leave it at that. I hope that you learn from this and are more open to the possibility that your opinion could be wrong in the future.


Don't bother trying to appeal to reason. He won't budge. At this point, my response to him is more for the sake of anyone else reading the thread because it shows just how flawed his way of reasoning is.

Mister Oragahn
March 25th, 2008, 03:06 PM
Mister Oragahn, I think we have a communication problem here. Your original point was that you could not have a larger gate connect to a smaller gate (actually your very first point was that all gates had to be the exact same size which you were subsequently proven wrong about).


Yes, I was wrong on the Orlin case. I still maintain that all gates have to be of the same size though, just to minimize the amount of problems.



This is what I have been arguing against. Since then you have thrown out ways for it to actually work, thus we are both right here. I merely wanted you to admit that you could be wrong and that a larger gate could connect to a smaller gate, you have done this, though you continued to argue with me since you seemed to be missing my point, so thank you.


My point is that I believe there's a plothole here, because I find it extremely convenient that the Ori would manage to make a connection to a device, located in another galaxy, which they know jack about, as far as evidence goes.

Some say they did it so that's not a plothole, they knew how. I say it's bull. Of course, we're in the universe where it's easy to plug a Dell laptop into Atlantis' core systems.
Even to make a basic connection between two human made computers using the same language, you have to make a tons of parameters respect protocols in a cooperative manner.


I hope that you learn from this and are more open to the possibility that your opinion could be wrong in the future.

Let's make things clear. I was wrong on Orlin's case, and that's pretty much it. You admit yourself that different sizes would lead to problems, and that only very convenient cases would be lucky to work, in theory.


P.S. Your points about the Ori not knowing the exact dimensions of the stargates...
Robert Cooper answers questions (http://stargate-sg1-solutions.com/blog/?p=1192)

I get a 404. :/
It seems that the answers don't exist anymore.










Nope. Not part of your options. You say that it's impossible for a larger gate to connect to a smaller gate. That is your argument, stick with it.


As you probably don't notice, you're going to argue on a point that's well past me, as the discussion moved on. I explored possibilities, and there's only one way you'd obtain an exploitable connection, where you are lucky to be small enough to fit through the destination stargate... again assuming no bug, resizing or protocol security kicks in, all the more options I listed.
Again, please follow.


It's already been established that the Ori and the Alterans kept communication devices in both galaxies.

Oh, obviously, they were great pen pals, considering how the Ori knew jack crap about the Alterans' destination.
When did you prove that such devices were used previously, and that the Ori managed to exploit the knowledge?
And if they did so, then why nothing happened?


How much of a stretch is it that someone could have used one?

And yet nothing happens? Just who would have done such a thing? The Alterans ran way from the Ori, and within the whole MW galaxy, only a few beings could build a stargate, in comparison to the trillions who don't know how to, or don't even know that they exist?
Or how? When? Why? And why would the Ori conveniently just get the convenient complete blueprints of a stargate, without even being given a reason for it, nor a destination?
It's not Contact you know. The wormholes from stargates can go in any direction, all defined by the dialing stargate.
Why the Ori would just receive the plans of those stargates, and not even know where that signal comes from?
Again, they knew nothing before Daniel and Vala activated those devices.

Even they could not be probed to obtain the coordinates to the Milky Way, because they couldn't tell where they are, they'd have no referent. They couldn't make them up.
Even more, you don't automatically gain the knowledge and memories of the person you swap personalities with, unless you maintain a constant link (as established in that horrible Citizen Joe crapisode). Which is not what happened with Daniel and Vala. They all discovered it all of sudden, and had to explore their new environment. The Ori learned about the Alterans/Ancients when Daniel and Vala spelled it to a Prior, directly, in episode Origin.
The only way the Ori would know where to aim their wormhole would be to get the Milky Way's coordinates, relative to their own galaxy. If they got it from the ancient body swapping connectors, then they'd have got them from the one you claim was used to obtain the blueprints, because there's no way for the Ori to get them from Daniel and Vala, since they simply could not know them at all.
Obviously no one ever used such a communication system before to make a contact with the Ori, from the Milky Way or any place close.


Or maybe the fact that the Ori are ascended and once they found out about the Milky Way, did a little snooping.

They seemed to miss things happening just under their nose. How could they "snoop" a bit since the Others were precisely masking the galaxy to the Ori?


Use your brain, for crying out loud. It's not a plot hole if it can be explained within the logic of the show.

Where's that logic?
It has as much logic as the Ark itself, dropped out of the blue.


The fact that they are compatible shows that they know about them and it's not a plot hole. This is stuff a 6 year old can figure out.

Or the fact that the writers just decided it worked even without verifying if it made sense for the Ori to be able to get a Prior to the MW without having the blueprints of one single stargate made by the Alterans.
I mean, damn, if it's so easy to just invent anything out of the blue, and say it's going to work with anything in the MW, just because it's coming from ascended people, then why bother with stargates, and why not hack all the computers in the Milky Way, for example, from their own galaxy?
After all, loosy hacking is something rather recurrent in Stargate.
Why not broadcast Ori propaganda in subspace, to all sensors in the Milky Way? That's the exact same reasoning.
And why, of course, didn't the Ori get nothing about Pegasus, Atlantis and all that jazz?

You see, your logic pretty much ends where it's very convenient for the writers to have the story move forth without caring about coherency.


They don't have to be all knowing. That's a logical fallacy right there.

So if they don't have to be all knowing, and since we obviously know that before Daniel and Vala saying that they're humans from another galaxy once populated by the Alterans to a Prior, the Ori knew nothing and got no other signal before that, what does that leave?

Huh, plot hole.


Right, of all the different options available to explain it, you choose the one that just happens to reinforce your worldview. It's not a plot hole if it can be explained within the internal logic of the story. Get that through your head or at least try. I realize your grasp of logic isn't very good, but I give points for effort. Get enough points and you might earn yourself a gold star.

[snip rest of garbage]

I already did, you're just incapable of comprehending it. You made a specific claim that you failed to back up with sufficient evidence but you don't have the self esteem to admit it. You're not even arguing objectively. "Oooh, the movie sucked, there's a plot hole because it sucked so badly!!" Even when it's shown to you that it's not a plot hole, you persist. This is a sign of either insanity or a learning disability. Take your pick.


It's called mere logic. I'm simply using the material the writers established themselves, and weren't shy of barely considering for their lousily cobbled film.
You have not provided a single option that works for the moment, and you have even rejected the easy hack "all knowing" magic card.

I also suppose you realize there would be much less problems if the writers had established stargates were already in use in the Ori galaxy well before the Alterans left, right?
That's the problem when the writing becomes fanboy writing, and some people in charge think that they have to spell everything, because in their view, it makes things cooler to know that a damn geek in a cave invented the Ark of InstaWin and the stargates on his school sketchbook.

If at least he drank tea...

Konman72
March 25th, 2008, 03:53 PM
My point is that I believe there's a plothole here, because I find it extremely convenient that the Ori would manage to make a connection to a device, located in another galaxy, which they know jack about, as far as evidence goes.

Some say they did it so that's not a plothole, they knew how. I say it's bull. Of course, we're in the universe where it's easy to plug a Dell laptop into Atlantis' core systems.
Even to make a basic connection between two human made computers using the same language, you have to make a tons of parameters respect protocols in a cooperative manner.



Let's make things clear. I was wrong on Orlin's case, and that's pretty much it. You admit yourself that different sizes would lead to problems, and that only very convenient cases would be lucky to work, in theory.



I get a 404. :/
It seems that the answers don't exist anymore.
I'm going to skip all the other crap since this alone shows you to be wrong again, about your main point...

It was Robert Cooper saying that the Ori learned of the Stargate technology after their ascension. So, yet again you are wrong, please let it go, you have been wrong on so many things now and all of your remaining points hinge on the fact that it hasn't been shown on screen.

(The site is temporarily down, check it again later if you doubt me)

Lt. Col. Mcoy
March 25th, 2008, 04:57 PM
1. McKay says in 'Pegasus Project' that the diameter of the gate is important, not random. He doesn't, however, define what is so important about it.

2. The Sangraal was a pulse device, 1 hit and boom. Also, it does indeed kill ascended beings. You do know what happens to canceled waves, right?

3. The 'burst into flames' thing was programmed into Gerak specifically in case he turned. They aren't worried about the other Priors, so they didn't put it in them.

Don't suppose anyone noticed this bit of help I gave. :mckay:

Mister Oragahn
March 25th, 2008, 08:23 PM
I'm going to skip all the other crap since this alone shows you to be wrong again, about your main point...

It was Robert Cooper saying that the Ori learned of the Stargate technology after their ascension.

Oh, the surprise. :D
The blueprints were just lying on the floor of ascension level 42, with a note about "certain coordinates that might interest you".


So, yet again you are wrong, please let it go, you have been wrong on so many things now and all of your remaining points hinge on the fact that it hasn't been shown on screen.

No, but it's not surprising you're trying to rewrite even that. You haven't got past the point of the mere problem of fitting cubes into cylindrical holes.
All your points were nothing more than "you're wrong because I say so" (which was just so tempting to use that same logic to piss you off), "it's a show", "the writers are right", blah blah blah.


(The site is temporarily down, check it again later if you doubt me)

Oh, I don't doubt you. This sort of behind the scene duct taping is most amusing. This opens a whole new can of worms.

Konman72
March 26th, 2008, 12:29 PM
Oh, the surprise. :D
The blueprints were just lying on the floor of ascension level 42, with a note about "certain coordinates that might interest you".
When the Milky Way was opened to them the knowledge would have been readily available.


No, but it's not surprising you're trying to rewrite even that. You haven't got past the point of the mere problem of fitting cubes into cylindrical holes.
No, you haven't gotten past the point that I'm not saying it would work, just that you don't know what would happen. You can't deny this.


All your points were nothing more than "you're wrong because I say so" (which was just so tempting to use that same logic to piss you off), "it's a show", "the writers are right", blah blah blah.
No, I am the one showing evidence and using stuff from the show. You on the other hand are merely theorizing and saying that your opinion is correct because it follows your logic. It is fiction, anything is possible, unless it has been shown it is not a plothole....get over it.

g.o.d
March 26th, 2008, 01:08 PM
When the Milky Way was opened to them the knowledge would have been readily available.

what? so it's like "visit MW galaxy for supergate technology. Visit the Ida galaxy for the asgard hologrphic technology, etc."

Konman72
March 26th, 2008, 01:23 PM
what? so it's like "visit MW galaxy for supergate technology. Visit the Ida galaxy for the asgard hologrphic technology, etc."
What? What are you talking about?

As ascended beings they obviously have access to information beyond their normal senses. Rob Cooper said that they learned of Stargate technology after they ascended. This takes away the "plothole" that they couldn't have known about Stargates since they were developed after the Alterans left their galaxy.

As far as how they learned about it, that is yet another example of things we can't possibly know unless it is shown. They could have learned of them in the Ida galaxy as the Asgard had them. They could have just learned about them when the Milky Way was opened to them. They could have learned about it from other ascended beings such as the Ancients. I honestly don't see what problem you have here, they were beings of pure enlightened energy...they can learn about things quite easily.

Jeffala
March 26th, 2008, 01:29 PM
what? so it's like "visit MW galaxy for supergate technology. Visit the Ida galaxy for the asgard hologrphic technology, etc."

It's more like, "Hey, Daniel. What's this swirling around in your mind? 'Stargates'. Hmm... I could use that. These symbols are the addresses of planets? I can work with that."

Daniel knows the basic theory of stargates. That means that the Ori did, too. Replicarter also said that Daniel's mind held vast amounts of knowledge from when he was ascended*.


*Does he still have that knowledge after his return from the Ascended Diner?

g.o.d
March 26th, 2008, 01:34 PM
What? What are you talking about?

As ascended beings they obviously have access to information beyond their normal senses. Rob Cooper said that they learned of Stargate technology after they ascended. This takes away the "plothole" that they couldn't have known about Stargates since they were developed after the Alterans left their galaxy.

As far as how they learned about it, that is yet another example of things we can't possibly know unless it is shown. They could have learned of them in the Ida galaxy as the Asgard had them. They could have just learned about them when the Milky Way was opened to them. They could have learned about it from other ascended beings such as the Ancients. I honestly don't see what problem you have here, they were beings of pure enlightened energy...they can learn about things quite easily.

I agree as an ascended you gain more knowledge. But I doubt the Ori learned about supergates from another ascended beings.

Akai
March 26th, 2008, 01:36 PM
Ok, the Stargate was originally invented by an Alteran living in the Ori galaxy. It was also stated (much earlier) in the series that the ring transporters are based on the same technology, just simpler and much shorter range. Yes, he took a notebook with some concept drawings with him when they left. But if he really was doing research on stargates and wormholes and creating devices to allow that sort of travel, do you really think that ALL his research was contained in that little notebook? Don't you think there were any prototypes or anything anywhere else? Yes, he took the notebook with him to make it easier to reproduce the technology elsewhere. But I seriously doubt that little notebook was the only source of information and research. All the Ori would've had to do is scavenge the area after the ship left, and I'm sure they would've found enough info to allow them to build their own stargates and ring transporters.

Also, the Ori KNEW perfectly well where the Alterans went. They caused the Ancient plague, via the stargates. Just send something infected through gates to a few planets, then boom, instant plague. The existence of the Alterans in the Milky Way was never in question in the Ori's minds. They knew they were there, even before either group had ascended. And once they were both ascended, the Ori still knew that the Ancients were there, ascended. The only thing the Ancients hid from the Ori was the fact that they had created a second evolution of humans in the Milky Way. They hid *our* existence from the Ori, not their own. Once the Ori found out there were humans in the Milky Way, they probably said "Ok, fire up the stargates and dial some of their addresses!" They already had gate addresses and knew where to go.

Konman72
March 26th, 2008, 02:20 PM
I agree as an ascended you gain more knowledge. But I doubt the Ori learned about supergates from another ascended beings.
So do I, but you seemed to be implying that there was no way for them to learn about them, I was giving a few examples.

What is it with people thinking that I firmly believe everything that I use as an example? I am pointing out possibilities here people, if you want to know what I actually think then ask but it has no bearing on these discussions.


*Does he still have that knowledge after his return from the Ascended Diner?
There is no reason to think he wouldn't, though I'm sure Mister O has a book on Ascended Theory that says he shouldn't :P

Jeffala
March 26th, 2008, 02:58 PM
There is no reason to think he wouldn't, though I'm sure Mister O has a book on Ascended Theory that says he shouldn't :P

Well it's possible that since Oma Desala was out of the picture, The Others would have actually stripped him of the knowledge when they restored him to life in "Threads" instead of just suppressing it like Oma did.

1138
March 26th, 2008, 04:53 PM
As you probably don't notice, you're going to argue on a point that's well past me, as the discussion moved on. I explored possibilities, and there's only one way you'd obtain an exploitable connection, where you are lucky to be small enough to fit through the destination stargate... again assuming no bug, resizing or protocol security kicks in, all the more options I listed.
Again, please follow.

You've moved on because you were proven wrong. You haven't conceded your idiotic statement.

All the Ori need to know is that a gate can fit a human through and all human sized objects would work. The whole bit about the "exploitable connection" is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Even if the Ori only had a supergate, as long as they sent something that can fit through a normal stargate, it would work fine. You know how the Ori can figure out the maximum size a MW stargate can support? They send a probe.




Oh, obviously, they were great pen pals, considering how the Ori knew jack crap about the Alterans' destination.
When did you prove that such devices were used previously, and that the Ori managed to exploit the knowledge?
And if they did so, then why nothing happened?

I've already proven what I need to prove. Your argument is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Ori to know about the Stargates. The mere existence of the communication device means that it is not IMPOSSIBLE, hence your argument has been disproven. In fact, any explanation that logically flows from the story which allows the Ori to get information from the Milky Way disproves your argument.




And yet nothing happens? Just who would have done such a thing? The Alterans ran way from the Ori, and within the whole MW galaxy, only a few beings could build a stargate, in comparison to the trillions who don't know how to, or don't even know that they exist?
Or how? When? Why? And why would the Ori conveniently just get the convenient complete blueprints of a stargate, without even being given a reason for it, nor a destination?
It's not Contact you know. The wormholes from stargates can go in any direction, all defined by the dialing stargate.
Why the Ori would just receive the plans of those stargates, and not even know where that signal comes from?
Again, they knew nothing before Daniel and Vala activated those devices.


Not my burden of proof. You have to prove that it's impossible for the Ori to know. You made the claim, you prove it. Since you can't, you should concede. If you don't, you're a liar.



Obviously no one ever used such a communication system before to make a contact with the Ori, from the Milky Way or any place close.

Completely unproven. You keep digging this hole you've found yourself in.




They seemed to miss things happening just under their nose. How could they "snoop" a bit since the Others were precisely masking the galaxy to the Ori?

Ascended does not mean infinite knowledge or infinite attention span. You don't even know the process by which the ascended can gain information. So the Ancients hid the humans of the Milky Way from the Ori. That doesn't mean that upon finding this out, the Ori can't: go look at the Milky Way themselves to verify if there are humans there, capture an ascended ancient and torture him for information or even send a spy. All possibilities which cast doubt on your assertion that it's IMPOSSIBLE for the Ori to know about the Stargates without actually violating any of the logic of the show.

Think about it this way. Imagine the Cold War. The US receives intel that the Russians are building a hidden nuclear facility in Siberia. So the US puts resources into finding out what's in Siberia. They instruct their spy satellites to look in Siberia, perhaps activate their assets inside Russia. While they are doing this, they discover that the Russians are also building a new type of rocket there. One of the American spies somehow manages to steal the plans to the rocket and bring it back to the US. Now replace the US with the Ori, the Russians with the Ancients, the nuclear facility with MW humans, and the new type of rocket with the Stargate. Project this onto the Ascended plane. It isn't implausible and certainly isn't impossible. That sort of scenario is basically the plot for a James Bond flick and certainly not considered a plot hole.

I'm not going to bother with the rest, it's the same thing repeated ad nauseam.

Mister Oragahn
March 27th, 2008, 08:05 AM
When the Milky Way was opened to them the knowledge would have been readily available.

What? Make your point clearer please.


No, you haven't gotten past the point that I'm not saying it would work, just that you don't know what would happen. You can't deny this.

Yes I can. You just don't get how simple it is. I've been asking you over several posts to come with reasons why it would work properly, and of course, since I was wrong, reasons that would differ from mine.

Thus far there's nothing from you on that segment. So either you just drop the point or actually make something constructive for a change.


No, I am the one showing evidence and using stuff from the show.

You have shown nothing, and certainly not used any evidence. It took numerous posts to finally pull a possible outcome out of your hole to refute my claim, and it was nothing more than one point I already made posts ago, but which I see you didn't read properly.


You on the other hand are merely theorizing and saying that your opinion is correct because it follows your logic.

As long as you prove your logic better, then yes, I deem it more correct.


It is fiction, anything is possible, unless it has been shown it is not a plothole....get over it.

Most absurd explanation. You can't change standards and retracts saying it's fiction if you're going to place yourself in the context of fictional reality to argue about the technicalities of a made up system.
All I see is babble from you but nothing really solid.
I'll just ignore your next posts until you actually say something new, original, meaningful and constructive.
It's on your side.




what? so it's like "visit MW galaxy for supergate technology. Visit the Ida galaxy for the asgard hologrphic technology, etc."

Yes, it's an universal expo. There's that alteran booth over there, with a showcase of the new iGate. Be sure to check it out!
Of course, you'll notice that somehow, the Pegasus wing of the expo is running private sessions only, where visitors are not allowed in.

Nevermind, Cooper's words have yet to make it into the canon to be valid.





You've moved on because you were proven wrong. You haven't conceded your idiotic statement.

No, I perfectly admited having been wrong on a single point, and continued the discussion with constructive suggestions.
You, on the other hand, seem to enjoy being stuck in the past before the moment I acknowledge my fuzzy memories about Orlin's state.

Oh, btw, let's be clear. Orlin made a one shot mini stargoatse. He could have put any protocols he wanted.
Sure, Earth has ignored a few protocols as well, but they were coating, and not essential to the intrasic working of the stargate.
The point is, the stargates are old, very old, and there are protocols there which are not meant to be changed. Even if you wanted to make a stargate of your own, from the moment you planned a regular use, it would be idiotic to create more problems.
This is particularily evident in the case of the nox-tolan stargate. They would not attempt to make a smaller or bigger stargate, which would cause just oh so many problems, when they're going to use it to connect to standard gates. It's idiotic, notably for purely volumetric concerns (see my four points and the rest).



All the Ori need to know is that a gate can fit a human through and all human sized objects would work.

Sure, after they made sure that they have the right blueprints, they have the right parameters, the right coordinates (just how the hell can they get anything there from ascended planes since the Others mask the galaxy?), etc.
Yes, that simple.

All they need to know is extremely vague to say the least. You probably forget about the fact that they need to know that their stargate is going to work with the stargate the Alterans have made, which at this point they just can't know at all.
Sure, in their little realm, they could make up some fictional stargate, ex-Abydos style, and dial dial dial dial until they get the right parameters.

That said, you're probably happy that Cooper solved the greatest mystery ever.
Of course, since it was just that easy to find the stargate blueprints, because, you know, once you ascend, you have access to unlimited knowledge, you just wonder why the Ori didn't find the blueprints about the weapons that destroy ships in a flash instant over light years, brainwashes a galaxy in a nanosecond, etc. etc. etc.

Yeah, just oh so convenient that they found the stargate and that it stopped there. Even more convenient that they didn't find the blueprints for the little trinklet that destroys all ascended beings of a galaxy at once.


The whole bit about the "exploitable connection" is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Even if the Ori only had a supergate, as long as they sent something that can fit through a normal stargate, it would work fine.

That you don't know.
Technically, we've only seen what smaller gate can do in conjunction with a bigger, standard one.
Empirically, there's no evidence it would work.


You know how the Ori can figure out the maximum size a MW stargate can support? They send a probe.

Yes, this is a good method for trial and error.
Another thing they wouldn't know, despite their ascensed status.


I've already proven what I need to prove. Your argument is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Ori to know about the Stargates.

Because I used logic. Of course, if suddenly Cooper slams the door and says they do because they do, a point that is as smart as the whole Ark of Truth itself, what can I say?
Oh, simple. It's bogus.

See my point above about how it's convenient that they only found the stargate - how would they even know they have to look for stargate blueprints in that infinite pool of data? - and yet didn't find those very convenient Deus Ex Machina that only the good guys seem to be allowed to use.

Most compelling!


The mere existence of the communication device means that it is not IMPOSSIBLE, hence your argument has been disproven.
In fact, any explanation that logically flows from the story which allows the Ori to get information from the Milky Way disproves your argument.

It's not because there's a radio somewhere that it explains all. Thus far, it has explained precisely nothing, and any hopeful resolution requires the ignorance of other elements already established in the show.
Surely, the Cooper card "solved" most of your issues.
Of course, at this point, we move to another level of plothole. Of course, the gist of it is that this plothole existed since the beginning of the Ori arc, and where the writers believed it was better to come with meaner enemies even more powerful than the Goa'uld, Anubis and all his aunts and cousins blah blah.


Ascended does not mean infinite knowledge or infinite attention span.

On the knowledge part, it does. It's, however, the knowledge of an individual that is still limited, though greater than when previously mortal.
On the awareness, yes, it's limited, which is all the more funny then because even if the Ori got some blueprints, you just have to wonder how they knew they were right, how it could connect to the alteran stargates and how they knew where to dial to. The universe is quite vast, especially for beings, ascended or not, with limited attention span.


You don't even know the process by which the ascended can gain information.

Do I even care at this point? We're all waiting for another Cooperism here.


That doesn't mean that upon finding this out, the Ori can't: go look at the Milky Way themselves to verify if there are humans there, capture an ascended ancient and torture him for information or even send a spy.

Ah, this is getting good.
Talking about made up nonsense, we're really getting into something rich here.
Now the Ori can come visit the galaxy, use their powers there, even capture ascended beings, etc.?
From the moment you're going to make some **** like that and even beat Cooper to this game, there's no point talking.
I'm not going to chase you and argue on every single absurd made up bit you make which you think stands as a good argument.
Those above are particularly appaling.


All possibilities which cast doubt on your assertion that it's IMPOSSIBLE for the Ori to know about the Stargates without actually violating any of the logic of the show.

Well, considering the nature of your possibilities, which are not shy of even contradicting two entire seasons of a show...


Think about it this way. Imagine the Cold War. The US receives intel that the Russians are building a hidden nuclear facility in Siberia. So the US puts resources into finding out what's in Siberia. They instruct their spy satellites to look in Siberia, perhaps activate their assets inside Russia. While they are doing this, they discover that the Russians are also building a new type of rocket there. One of the American spies somehow manages to steal the plans to the rocket and bring it back to the US. Now replace the US with the Ori, the Russians with the Ancients, the nuclear facility with MW humans, and the new type of rocket with the Stargate. Project this onto the Ascended plane. It isn't implausible and certainly isn't impossible. That sort of scenario is basically the plot for a James Bond flick and certainly not considered a plot hole.

I think this plot would pretty much stop at the point where the Ori have no spy in the Milky Way, because it was particularily clear that the Ori knew dick about the humans in the Milky Way, nor the presence and survival of the Alterans or even their position in the universe.
Plus the subtle difference that the rocket blueprints just fall from the sky.

The only moment the Ori learned something is when Daniel spoked openly about where he comes from - still, that wouldn't tell how to get there, and where that "from" is - and the Alterans have survived and ascended.

Hey, you know what, I'm tired of this sh1t, so I'm out.

Konman72
March 27th, 2008, 09:21 AM
What? Make your point clearer please.
How can I be any clearer? Once Daniel Jackson entered their galaxy all of his knowledge was open to them. They learned about our galaxy, the humans that live here and very possibly the stargates (he knows much about them already and if they had access to his ascended knowledge then they would know everything).



Yes I can. You just don't get how simple it is. I've been asking you over several posts to come with reasons why it would work properly, and of course, since I was wrong, reasons that would differ from mine.

Thus far there's nothing from you on that segment. So either you just drop the point or actually make something constructive for a change.
I, and you actually, have given ways for it to work. A human enters a Supergate that is dialed into a normal gate. The gate recognizes that he will fit through so he is centered on the event horizon. Is this true? I don't know, neither do you, but it is a possibility. As far as an object larger than the gate. No one knows but it doesn't matter since they never did it thus it is not a "plothole".



You have shown nothing, and certainly not used any evidence. It took numerous posts to finally pull a possible outcome out of your hole to refute my claim, and it was nothing more than one point I already made posts ago, but which I see you didn't read properly.
Actually I am the only one here to have shown something from the show. Orlin's gate, the Tollan gate, Daniel's knowledge being obtained in their galaxy. Where exactly have you mentioned any evidence? Hard facts? Oh, no, only conjecture and opinion.



Most absurd explanation. You can't change standards and retracts saying it's fiction if you're going to place yourself in the context of fictional reality to argue about the technicalities of a made up system.
All I see is babble from you but nothing really solid.
I'll just ignore your next posts until you actually say something new, original, meaningful and constructive.
It's on your side.
My point there is that nothing has been said either way, so the writers still have every possibility open to them. Can you think of even one possible scenario where you would be wrong? If so then it is not a plothole.



Yes, it's an universal expo. There's that alteran booth over there, with a showcase of the new iGate. Be sure to check it out!
Of course, you'll notice that somehow, the Pegasus wing of the expo is running private sessions only, where visitors are not allowed in.

Nevermind, Cooper's words have yet to make it into the canon to be valid.
It doesn't have to be canon! It is one explanation (the fact that it comes from the writer of the movie means that it is the explanation) that proves you wrong. They learned of stargates while ascended. I have given numerous ways that this could have come about. You are wrong, admit it and move on.


Oh, btw, let's be clear. Orlin made a one shot mini stargoatse. He could have put any protocols he wanted.
Sure, Earth has ignored a few protocols as well, but they were coating, and not essential to the intrasic working of the stargate.
The point is, the stargates are old, very old, and there are protocols there which are not meant to be changed. Even if you wanted to make a stargate of your own, from the moment you planned a regular use, it would be idiotic to create more problems.
This is particularily evident in the case of the nox-tolan stargate. They would not attempt to make a smaller or bigger stargate, which would cause just oh so many problems, when they're going to use it to connect to standard gates. It's idiotic, notably for purely volumetric concerns (see my four points and the rest).
Why would it cause problems? You say yourself that they could program any protocols into it that they wanted right? So they could program it to not accept anything that is too large to fit through the EH. It could store it in the buffer and then dial another gate and send it through. Why would they do this? No idea, probably no reason at all it was just fun to have a different looking gate, but it is, yet again, a way for you to be wrong and by your own rules. And with this said how do you know that this protocol wasn't programmed into the current gates. Here's a standard if/then statement that would serve this function...

If object is too large to fit through EH, then store in buffer, dial originating gate and send through.


Again, this doesn't have to be true, only possible, for you to be wrong. So answer this one question: is this scenario possible, yes or no?
Sure, after they made sure that they have the right blueprints, they have the right parameters, the right coordinates (just how the hell can they get anything there from ascended planes since the Others mask the galaxy?), etc.
Yes, that simple.
What about the Ida Galaxy? Who ascended first the Ori or the Ancients? If it was the Ancients have they always shielded our galaxy from them? Did Daniel hold the knowledge from when he was ascended? Did the Ancients place Stargates in any other galaxy? I could keep going but if any one of these seems remotely possible to you then you have to concede that you are wrong. So again, yes or no, is any one of these possible? Even remotely?


All they need to know is extremely vague to say the least. You probably forget about the fact that they need to know that their stargate is going to work with the stargate the Alterans have made, which at this point they just can't know at all.
Sure, in their little realm, they could make up some fictional stargate, ex-Abydos style, and dial dial dial dial until they get the right parameters.
Oh dear God. They are beings of pure energy! I'm sure the information that they gather is a but more intricate than 20 feet high by 20 feet wide...round.


That said, you're probably happy that Cooper solved the greatest mystery ever.
Of course, since it was just that easy to find the stargate blueprints, because, you know, once you ascend, you have access to unlimited knowledge, you just wonder why the Ori didn't find the blueprints about the weapons that destroy ships in a flash instant over light years, brainwashes a galaxy in a nanosecond, etc. etc. etc.
Who says they didn't? The Dakara weapon doesn't serve their purpose (conversion, not death) and the Ark can only make you believe something that is true, thus they could not use it to convert people to worship them (and don't ask how it knows what is or is not true, I don't know. My guess is that this is specific to the Ori thing since that was its purpose).


Yeah, just oh so convenient that they found the stargate and that it stopped there. Even more convenient that they didn't find the blueprints for the little trinklet that destroys all ascended beings of a galaxy at once.
You are assuming that they had access to all information in our galaxy, which is most likely untrue. There are many other ways that they could have learned about the gates though, see above.



That you don't know.
Technically, we've only seen what smaller gate can do in conjunction with a bigger, standard one.
Empirically, there's no evidence it would work.
And, empirically, there is no evidence that it wouldn't.


Because I used logic. Of course, if suddenly Cooper slams the door and says they do because they do, a point that is as smart as the whole Ark of Truth itself, what can I say?
Oh, simple. It's bogus.
So, basically, you have a problem with all of fiction...great.


See my point above about how it's convenient that they only found the stargate - how would they even know they have to look for stargate blueprints in that infinite pool of data? - and yet didn't find those very convenient Deus Ex Machina that only the good guys seem to be allowed to use.
Asked and answered. I like that you will now accept that they could have learned of the stargates but only through the one method that causes problems. I am tired of you now, you want to be right and you want the show to be wrong and you will lie and cheat to make it so.



It's not because there's a radio somewhere that it explains all. Thus far, it has explained precisely nothing, and any hopeful resolution requires the ignorance of other elements already established in the show.
Really? So what has already been established in the show that is being messed with here?


On the knowledge part, it does. It's, however, the knowledge of an individual that is still limited, though greater than when previously mortal.
On the awareness, yes, it's limited, which is all the more funny then because even if the Ori got some blueprints, you just have to wonder how they knew they were right, how it could connect to the alteran stargates and how they knew where to dial to. The universe is quite vast, especially for beings, ascended or not, with limited attention span.
Why do you keep calling them blueprints? As ascended beings don't you think they would have more intricate knowledge than a standard blueprint? They are pure energy they could literally look at it from inside. They would understand how it works, why and anything else just by encountering it. Orlin built one by himself as a normal human using household objects, so I'm guessing that ascended beings could do so as well.


Do I even care at this point? We're all waiting for another Cooperism here.
You mean we are waiting on the writer to come up with a fictional explanation of something? Isn't that what we have been doing for 11 years?


Ah, this is getting good.
Talking about made up nonsense, we're really getting into something rich here.
Now the Ori can come visit the galaxy, use their powers there, even capture ascended beings, etc.?
From the moment you're going to make some **** like that and even beat Cooper to this game, there's no point talking.
I'm not going to chase you and argue on every single absurd made up bit you make which you think stands as a good argument.
Those above are particularly appaling.
While I disagree with the possibilities that he came up they do not violate anything in the show so you have to admit they are possible which would make you wrong again.


The only moment the Ori learned something is when Daniel spoked openly about where he comes from - still, that wouldn't tell how to get there, and where that "from" is - and the Alterans have survived and ascended.
JACKSON: Hello, I'm, uh ...

DOCI: Daniel Jackson.

JACKSON: Right.

DOCI: From the planet Earrrrrth.

He knew before Daniel said anything. His mind was open to the Ori as soon as he connected to the galaxy.


Hey, you know what, I'm tired of this sh1t, so I'm out.
Oh....thank....God.

Mitchell82
March 28th, 2008, 04:38 PM
Morgan says that it's enough to turn just one Prior and it would effect all the Priors because they're all connected telepathically.
With the Arc not just by convincing one without it.


But in season 9 Teal'c convinced Garak (when he was a Prior) to turn against the Ori. it didn't effect any other Priors. Also Garak burst into flames, and it was said it was because the Priors' brains were programmed by the Ori to do that so that a Prior would die if he ever turns against the Ori. It didn't happen in the movie either.
As I just said it had to be with the Ark. Also Garak defied the Ori and the task he was given. By helping us a genetic failsafe kicked in.



Another plot hole is Tomin's story. Tomin already turned against the Ori in season 10, so it seems strange that in the movie they have to again convince him to turn against them.
he already betrayed his Prior to save Vala. It is highly unlikely the Prior would not know about this and would put Tomin as a commander in the army again.
No he didn't. He disagreed with that particular Priors interpretation of the book of Origin.

Skydiver
March 28th, 2008, 05:52 PM
folks, let's try to debate the topic of plotholes, without descending into name calling or dismissive attitudes

1138
March 28th, 2008, 09:36 PM
Ah, this is getting good.
Talking about made up nonsense, we're really getting into something rich here.
Now the Ori can come visit the galaxy, use their powers there, even capture ascended beings, etc.?
From the moment you're going to make some **** like that and even beat Cooper to this game, there's no point talking.
I'm not going to chase you and argue on every single absurd made up bit you make which you think stands as a good argument.
Those above are particularly appaling.

None of which contradict the story, which disproves your assertion that there is a plot hole. Hence, you were wrong. End of story.



I think this plot would pretty much stop at the point where the Ori have no spy in the Milky Way, because it was particularily clear that the Ori knew dick about the humans in the Milky Way, nor the presence and survival of the Alterans or even their position in the universe.
Plus the subtle difference that the rocket blueprints just fall from the sky.


We've seen in Threads that the Ascended plane has clear analogies with the real world, and so anything you can do in the real world can be done in the Ascended plane, including intelligence gathering. At this point, I can only conclude that your viewpoint is completely without logic. I'll leave what I think that implies about your intellect unsaid.



Hey, you know what, I'm tired of this sh1t, so I'm out.

Concession accepted. You have absolutely no proof at all and you've lost the argument. You just won't admit it.




While I disagree with the possibilities that he came up they do not violate anything in the show so you have to admit they are possible which would make you wrong again.



That's exactly the point. I don't intend to figure out what happened precisely, but simply show that there are many possibilities that his theory doesn't account for, which of course disproves everything he's said. He's not arguing logically (otherwise he would have recognized the flaw in his theory and conceded); he's arguing purely from a purely emotional point of view.

1138
March 28th, 2008, 09:37 PM
folks, let's try to debate the topic of plotholes, without descending into name calling or dismissive attitudes

You know, he's flung just as much sh1t my way when you really get down to it. So why did you delete only my posts? BTW, in the real world, anyone who presents an argument without proof or keeps persisting even after being disproven is called a fraud; I don't know why the internet has to be any different. I mean, I can imply exactly the same thing through veiled language, but I prefer to cut the crap and say it directly.

Mitchell82
March 29th, 2008, 11:45 AM
You know, he's flung just as much sh1t my way when you really get down to it. So why did you delete only my posts? BTW, in the real world, anyone who presents an argument without proof or keeps persisting even after being disproven is called a fraud; I don't know why the internet has to be any different. I mean, I can imply exactly the same thing through veiled language, but I prefer to cut the crap and say it directly.
You can debate opinions as much as you want but attacking each other is against the rules. PERIOD.

Ladyinred
March 29th, 2008, 11:50 AM
You can debate opinions as much as you want but attacking each other is against the rules. PERIOD.

Agree, but Sky should have also deleted Mister O posts... 1138 is right.

Mitchell82
March 29th, 2008, 12:20 PM
Agree, but Sky should have also deleted Mister O posts... 1138 is right.

True. She shouldn't have left those and take away the others.

g.o.d
March 29th, 2008, 12:27 PM
Agree, but Sky should have also deleted Mister O posts... 1138 is right.

you should RED her!!!she must be a part of some conspiracy against people who like AoT

1138
March 29th, 2008, 08:24 PM
You can debate opinions as much as you want but attacking each other is against the rules. PERIOD.

The problem is that nobody ever really follows that rule. What happens on moderated forums like these is that people invent an entire subtextual way of insulting others while still appearing to follow the rules. I'm sure everyone here has seen or experienced it for themselves. So in my mind, there's very little difference between that sort of veiled but rule-abiding insult and a direct insult, since it's implying exactly the same thing. And when I sense a veiled insult, I will lose my patience and respond in kind. Since I like to state things directly, I'm usually the first to openly issue an insult. I agree that I should follow the rules (it is the site owner's perogative) but it's difficult because I consider it honest to state what I think directly and I don't like playing the game by responding to someone's post with subtle, hidden insults that the moderators will let slip. It's actually a bit too much like schoolyard-antics for me. Yes, I did spend a lot of time seeing the Vice Principal as a kid precisely because I refused to play the subtleties game.

SylvreWolfe
March 29th, 2008, 08:32 PM
Dernit, did I miss the drama?

Mitchell82
March 30th, 2008, 09:54 AM
The problem is that nobody ever really follows that rule. What happens on moderated forums like these is that people invent an entire subtextual way of insulting others while still appearing to follow the rules. I'm sure everyone here has seen or experienced it for themselves. So in my mind, there's very little difference between that sort of veiled but rule-abiding insult and a direct insult, since it's implying exactly the same thing. And when I sense a veiled insult, I will lose my patience and respond in kind. Since I like to state things directly, I'm usually the first to openly issue an insult. I agree that I should follow the rules (it is the site owner's perogative) but it's difficult because I consider it honest to state what I think directly and I don't like playing the game by responding to someone's post with subtle, hidden insults that the moderators will let slip. It's actually a bit too much like schoolyard-antics for me. Yes, I did spend a lot of time seeing the Vice Principal as a kid precisely because I refused to play the subtleties game.
I know the feeling. I've been in the same boat and I too have lost my temper. I know it's not easy and I've gotten into it with the same poster as you. The trick is to do your best and ignore posters that are just trying to cause trouble.

SylvreWolfe
March 30th, 2008, 11:24 AM
And blatantly insulting and attacking people just because they disagree with you is also against the rules.

Mitchell82
April 2nd, 2008, 11:39 AM
And blatantly insulting and attacking people just because they disagree with you is also against the rules.

Yes it is and I haven't done that.

Coco Pops
April 13th, 2008, 08:03 AM
I'm not sure if this at all counts as a plot hole in the movie, but a couple of things I noticed.

In the beginning piece with the Alterans. They make mention of the Ori assembling armies and such. Did the Ori have those troops we see later on way back then, to quote "millions of years ago?" Did they even have or need spaceships? Another niggle of mine.


That other niggle. The Ori kept telling us in s10 that our use of science and logic is evil. Yet they are comfortable to build silly toilet shaped spaceships and vast armies that must use some kind of technology. The ships aren't run by bloody magic after all.... Did the ascended Ori beings pass down the knowledge to their priors and such to build all these ships and weapons and stuff?. So much for science being evil unless it's the ori showing how to use it.....

Mitchell82
April 13th, 2008, 04:40 PM
I'm not sure if this at all counts as a plot hole in the movie, but a couple of things I noticed.

In the beginning piece with the Alterans. They make mention of the Ori assembling armies and such. Did the Ori have those troops we see later on way back then, to quote "millions of years ago?" Did they even have or need spaceships? Another niggle of mine.
Good question actually. Not necessarily a plot hole more like an omission. My guess is they were still "human" at that point in history and just starting the crusade of that galaxy and without a gate system some kind of ship most likely would be required.



That other niggle. The Ori kept telling us in s10 that our use of science and logic is evil. Yet they are comfortable to build silly toilet shaped spaceships and vast armies that must use some kind of technology. The ships aren't run by bloody magic after all.... Did the ascended Ori beings pass down the knowledge to their priors and such to build all these ships and weapons and stuff?. So much for science being evil unless it's the ori showing how to use it.....
It's not that simple. As far as I know it's not science and logic that they think are evil. It's the Ancients who hide the "wisdom of the ages" from the mere mortals that they find evil.

FallenAngelII
April 16th, 2008, 09:18 AM
When Teal'c convinced Garak to turn his back on the Ori the Ori were alive to take Garak away. But when Daniel used The Ark Of Truth on the Priors the Ori were dead & Adria was kept busy that is why none of the Ori in The Ark Of Truth burned into flames. It is not a plot hole & it is quite simple really
Doesn't add up. Because that would be directly interfering with the Milky Way, which would bring down the wrath of the Others.

No, from what I can tell, Gerak was just convinced of what he thought to be the "right thing". The others, connected to him through the staff, weren't, however.

When the Doci looked into the Ark, he saw the truth. He then shared this truth with the rest of the Priors (their staffs lit up because they were activated in order for the Doci to communicate with them). What the Doci communicated to them was not "I have been told of this and now believe it to be so". He told them the undeniable truth.

The whole "We didn't burst into flames"-thing is questionable, though. I don't know either. Adria is so powerful she should be able to snuff them even while keeping busy with Daniel & Friends. And here's a question: Why didn't she just snuff the Doci or use her telekinesis to move the Ark or throw the Doci across the room?

And we better find out what happens to the Doci and the Priors. They should still retain their powers even after Adria's death.

Mitchell82
April 16th, 2008, 01:54 PM
Doesn't add up. Because that would be directly interfering with the Milky Way, which would bring down the wrath of the Others.

No, from what I can tell, Gerak was just convinced of what he thought to be the "right thing". The others, connected to him through the staff, weren't, however.
I can't believe this but I actually agree with you! YOu are 100% correct. Gerak "saw the light" so to speak but he wasn't connected to the other priors. He burst into flames because he directly defied the Ori but they didn't do it.


When the Doci looked into the Ark, he saw the truth. He then shared this truth with the rest of the Priors (their staffs lit up because they were activated in order for the Doci to communicate with them). What the Doci communicated to them was not "I have been told of this and now believe it to be so". He told them the undeniable truth.
Agreed.


The whole "We didn't burst into flames"-thing is questionable, though. I don't know either. Adria is so powerful she should be able to snuff them even while keeping busy with Daniel & Friends. And here's a question: Why didn't she just snuff the Doci or use her telekinesis to move the Ark or throw the Doci across the room?
For one I don't think she thought that she was at risk. Also I'm not sure if she could do that even in her galaxy.


And we better find out what happens to the Doci and the Priors. They should still retain their powers even after Adria's death.
I don't know about that. They likely are normal humans again.

Jeffala
April 16th, 2008, 02:07 PM
I don't know about that. They likely are normal humans again.

They were genetically altered. An ascended being going poof doesn't instantaneously reverse that.

It's possible that a Prior or the Doci could reverse the process, but, in the end, there would still be one genetically advanced being running around because he probably can't undo himself.

Frontastic
April 17th, 2008, 11:31 AM
There was only one thing that annoyed me. While the whole battle was going taking place on board the Odyssey the Ori ships, four of them, were bombarding it! Now I know the Asgard put all their tech into that ship, but I can't see how they could make a shield that used to be able to only take one direct and still survive to making a shield that could survive almost a half an hour of four motherships firing in turn at it!
Something else I just noticed, at the start with the Alterans. When you see their ship leave it takes off almost exactly the same as Atlantis does at the start of Rising. Did anyone get a good look at it, because at the start of Rising we are told it was several million years ago, perhaps it is Atlantis they leave the Ori galaxy in.

FallenAngelII
April 17th, 2008, 03:13 PM
For one I don't think she thought that she was at risk. Also I'm not sure if she could do that even in her galaxy.
It's her own galaxy. If they're able to impregnate people and genetically alter people, I'd think they have free reign.

Also, remember when Oma killed all those Jaffa? So it's perfectly possible for Ascended beings to randomly snuff people.


I don't know about that. They likely are normal humans again.
Genetically altered people don't change back just like that, though. They better not let the Ori galaxy fall into a plot hole.

JediKnutt
April 17th, 2008, 06:16 PM
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but did anyone else notice that Teal'c's gray streak changes from his right side to his left in one close up on his "mountain walk"?

Mitchell82
April 17th, 2008, 10:09 PM
It's her own galaxy. If they're able to impregnate people and genetically alter people, I'd think they have free reign.
True, however I still contend that there wasn't enough time and she didn't feel she was at risk.


Also, remember when Oma killed all those Jaffa? So it's perfectly possible for Ascended beings to randomly snuff people.
Yes she could do that but a part of her still didn't want to hurt her mother.



Genetically altered people don't change back just like that, though. They better not let the Ori galaxy fall into a plot hole.
You have a point. Most likely they still have their powers but I doubt we will see anymore stories on the Ori.

Mitchell82
April 17th, 2008, 10:10 PM
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but did anyone else notice that Teal'c's gray streak changes from his right side to his left in one close up on his "mountain walk"?

Yeah many, many times. It was caused by flipping the image to mesh with the CG.

Veretax
April 21st, 2008, 06:56 AM
There was only one thing that annoyed me. While the whole battle was going taking place on board the Odyssey the Ori ships, four of them, were bombarding it! Now I know the Asgard put all their tech into that ship, but I can't see how they could make a shield that used to be able to only take one direct and still survive to making a shield that could survive almost a half an hour of four motherships firing in turn at it!
Something else I just noticed, at the start with the Alterans. When you see their ship leave it takes off almost exactly the same as Atlantis does at the start of Rising. Did anyone get a good look at it, because at the start of Rising we are told it was several million years ago, perhaps it is Atlantis they leave the Ori galaxy in.



ActuallY I thought about that too and at the time I was thinking that perhaps the Repliators while they had control had enhanced the ship's shielding to protect their new "nest".

You want to discuss a plot hole? Morgan La Faye revives Teal'c and he runs off into the Ori city. When next we see him he has an Ori Cloak. I wish they'd shown a bit more about what Teal'c did there rather than just have him appear with a cloak.

Claudiafan
April 27th, 2008, 01:28 AM
Speaking of continuity errors, did anyone else notice that when Teal'c is on his little mountain trek, that grey stripe on his hair is clearly shown on the left side of his head - yet in all other scenes, it's on the right? There aren't any mirrors in the wilderness, so it can't be explained away as some kind of reflected image. The closeup shot I'm referring to, where you can clearly see this, is in the extras on the DVD as well as the movie itself.

Actually, I just read an earlier post I'd missed - someone else did notice this. I just can't believe Christopher Judge and all the filmmakers missed it!

Coco Pops
April 27th, 2008, 02:30 AM
What about the fact Teal'c also casts two shadows while walking