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View Full Version : Alteran-Ori Conflict: Impossible? (AOT SPOILERS)



s09119
March 4th, 2008, 12:00 PM
I was just thinking about "Ark of Truth," and how the Alterans created the Ark to convince the Ori's human followers that the "gods" they believed in were not gods at all, just powerful beings... but that makes no sense, no given the time period.

The Ancients didn't ascend until they returned to Earth from Atlantis (at least in mass numbers; some did in Pegasus), many millions of years after their initial exodus from their home galaxy. So that would mean that the Ori, like the Alterans, were nothing more than advanced humans at the time, right? The Ori weren't ascended yet, and wouldn't for thousands of more years (if not millions), so they couldn't be the god-like beings they appear to be now in our time.

Furthermore, how could there even be human followers? Humans as we know them weren't created until the Dakara device created life in the Milky Way, because that was the Ancients seeding life in the best form they knew; themselves. It's possible the Ori did this in their own galaxy, but it would have been after the Alterans fled.

Thoughts? This interpretation may not be right, as it just kind of... well, came to me, but I still think it merits pointing out.

g.o.d
March 4th, 2008, 12:33 PM
Alterans (one of them) created the Ark against the Ori. Do you remember the beginning of AoT? They're talking about Ark and the Ori.


I think that the Ori created humans in their galaxy as well as the Ancients did it in MW.

There's another thing I don't get. SG-1 used the Ark against the Doci and the Priors to tell them that their gods are not gods or whatever.But how did Melius program the Ark against the Ori before he and rest of the Alterans left? What would the Ark tell the Ori? That killing isn't good? or something else?

s09119
March 4th, 2008, 12:35 PM
Alterans (one of them) created the Ark against the Ori. Do you remember the beginning of AoT? They're talking about Ark and the Ori.


I think that the Ori created humans in their galaxy as well as the Ancients did it in MW.

There's another thing I don't get. SG-1 used the Ark against the Doci and the Priors to tell them that their gods are not gods or whatever.But how did Melius program the Ark against the Ori before he and rest of the Alterans left? What would the Ark tell the Ori? That killing isn't good? or something else?

Ah, was it just against the Ori? Maybe I've forgotten that part... I'll re-watch it.

And the Ark was already programmed to tell people that the Ori were not gods when SG-1 found it; they never had time to reprogram it, so that's all it could have been set for. And the Ori certainly knew they weren't gods... so why bother brainwashing them for that?

g.o.d
March 4th, 2008, 12:39 PM
Ah, was it just against the Ori? Maybe I've forgotten that part... I'll re-watch it.

it's in the beginning



And the Ark was already programmed to tell people that the Ori were not gods when SG-1 found it; they never had time to reprogram it, so that's all it could have been set for. And the Ori certainly knew they weren't gods... so why bother brainwashing them for that?

We don't know that. Morgan programmed the Ark and showed it to Vala. I don't buy that this was the "reason" why they suddenly stopped their crusade. There should have been something more in the Ark. It's a shame that RCC didn't bother to explain that:(

oh and btw. when can we expect another part of "higher Planes"? :)

kirmit
March 4th, 2008, 12:53 PM
it's in the beginning



We don't know that. Morgan programmed the Ark and showed it to Vala. I don't buy that this was the "reason" why they suddenly stopped their crusade. There should have been something more in the Ark. It's a shame that RCC didn't bother to explain that:(

oh and btw. when can we expect another part of "higher Planes"? :)

So the inventor of the Ark set a programme, that's was only pressing a few buttons, in it to tell people the Ori aren't gods though when he created it he had no idea the Ori would ascend, create a galaxy of people and get them to worship them as gods lol.

g.o.d
March 4th, 2008, 12:59 PM
So the inventor of the Ark set a programme, that's was only pressing a few buttons, in it to tell people the Ori aren't gods though when he created it he had no idea the Ori would ascend, create a galaxy of people and get them to worship them as gods lol.


yes, but he created it against the Ori (humans) in the first place

knowitall
March 4th, 2008, 01:34 PM
the Ark was not made to be used against ascended beings it was meant to make
the followers of Origin believe something else. Even Daniel doesnt know what that something else is. it is probably used make the followers believe the same things the alterans believed. there would be no need to stop the followers from worshiping the Ori as gods since neither group had reached ascension

Flyboy
March 5th, 2008, 03:10 AM
From what I can gather, the situation between the alterans and the ori in their original galaxy was much like the spanish inquisition. The ori were becoming scaringly fundamentalistic as a religious group. Forcing the alterans into hiding because of their scientific orientation.

Mister Oragahn
March 5th, 2008, 05:34 PM
It's simply bull****.

It supposedly reveals a truth (spades of lolz for you) which the creator of the Ark couldn't even know anything about, since there would be no argument.

- Alteran1: The Ori are not gods.
- Alteran2: They never said they were.
- Alteran1: Ah oh but crap, this will helps humans defeat ascended Ori in a far future, by telling them the truth I programmed.
- Alteran2: Sorry... but... what?

Applause.
1 million dollar game: what was the truth?

s09119
March 5th, 2008, 05:38 PM
the Ark was not made to be used against ascended beings it was meant to make
the followers of Origin believe something else. Even Daniel doesnt know what that something else is. it is probably used make the followers believe the same things the alterans believed. there would be no need to stop the followers from worshiping the Ori as gods since neither group had reached ascension

...but there were no followers yet, remember? Just the Ori themselves.


It's simply bull****.

It supposedly reveals a truth (spades of lolz for you) which the creator of the Ark couldn't even know anything about, since there would be no argument.

- Alteran1: The Ori are not gods.
- Alteran2: They never said they were.
- Alteran1: Ah oh but crap, this will helps humans defeat ascended Ori in a far future, by telling them the truth I programmed.
- Alteran2: Sorry... but... what?

Applause.
1 million dollar game: what was the truth?

Very good point.

Flyboy
March 6th, 2008, 11:43 AM
Maybe some of the Ori and Alterans had already ascended and the followers were original human form Ori, and the resistance movement were pre-ascended alterans.

s09119
March 6th, 2008, 11:45 AM
Maybe some of the Ori and Alterans had already ascended and the followers were original human form Ori, and the resistance movement were pre-ascended alterans.

All evidence points to the Alterans/Ori not having ascended yet at all. If the Ori had, what would the conflict matter, anyways? The Ori would have just reached down and wiped them out.

g.o.d
March 6th, 2008, 11:51 AM
Maybe some of the Ori and Alterans had already ascended and the followers were original human form Ori, and the resistance movement were pre-ascended alterans.

I don't think so. I believe all of the Alterans left the Ori in their big ship

g.o.d
March 6th, 2008, 11:53 AM
All evidence points to the Alterans/Ori not having ascended yet at all. If the Ori had, what would the conflict matter, anyways? The Ori would have just reached down and wiped them out.

the strange thing is, that according to RCC the ascended Ori were only a minority. Which means, there are other ascended beings than the Ancients. RCC also said that the ascended Ori wanted to destroy ascended Ancients. I wonder what would happen with the other ascended beings if the Ori were succesful

kymeric
March 6th, 2008, 12:01 PM
I was just thinking about "Ark of Truth," and how the Alterans created the Ark to convince the Ori's human followers that the "gods" they believed in were not gods at all, just powerful beings... but that makes no sense, no given the time period.

The Ancients didn't ascend until they returned to Earth from Atlantis (at least in mass numbers; some did in Pegasus), many millions of years after their initial exodus from their home galaxy. So that would mean that the Ori, like the Alterans, were nothing more than advanced humans at the time, right? The Ori weren't ascended yet, and wouldn't for thousands of more years (if not millions), so they couldn't be the god-like beings they appear to be now in our time.

Furthermore, how could there even be human followers? Humans as we know them weren't created until the Dakara device created life in the Milky Way, because that was the Ancients seeding life in the best form they knew; themselves. It's possible the Ori did this in their own galaxy, but it would have been after the Alterans fled.

Thoughts? This interpretation may not be right, as it just kind of... well, came to me, but I still think it merits pointing out.

It has already been established that not every ancient/ori was capable of ascension, but could be ascended by technology (ori probably wuldnt do) or by the help of other ascended beings. The entire race wouldnt have all ascended right at the same time. For all we know it could have taken millions of years for the ascension of all the ori.

I would guess that it was in this time that they learned being worshipped can make you more powerful and they started making humans. The role of the priors supports this. They wouldnt have just make priors (poof!) out of nowhere, nor would they have immediatly know how to engineer them. The first priors would have been unascended ori. Until they pulled an adria and ascended themselves.

Darren
March 6th, 2008, 12:32 PM
When we're looking at the original Alteran-Ori feud and the creation of the Ark millions of years ago, you have to put the whole idea of ascension out of your mind. That happened far, far later, independently for both groups.

When the Ark was created they were both offshoots of the same, human-like species. The Ori became fanatical and persecuted the Alterans. The Ark was originally created and programmed to convince them this was wrong.

It's probable that this device would have never worked on the Ori once they ascended. But when they created and started influencing human followers, these mortal beings could be influenced by the Ark. It would seem that the programmed "truth" was not "The Ori are false gods," but more generic, like "It is wrong to persecute others to enforce your religious beliefs."

That sort of message would have been appropriate for the pre-ascension Ori millions of years ago, and would work on their followers today (without completing obliterating Origin as a peaceful religion).

Ripple in Space
March 7th, 2008, 12:11 PM
When we're looking at the original Alteran-Ori feud and the creation of the Ark millions of years ago, you have to put the whole idea of ascension out of your mind. That happened far, far later, independently for both groups.

When the Ark was created they were both offshoots of the same, human-like species. The Ori became fanatical and persecuted the Alterans. The Ark was originally created and programmed to convince them this was wrong.

It's probable that this device would have never worked on the Ori once they ascended. But when they created and started influencing human followers, these mortal beings could be influenced by the Ark. It would seem that the programmed "truth" was not "The Ori are false gods," but more generic, like "It is wrong to persecute others to enforce your religious beliefs."

That sort of message would have been appropriate for the pre-ascension Ori millions of years ago, and would work on their followers today (without completing obliterating Origin as a peaceful religion).

Possible. Or maybe Janus just reprogrammed it between the Alteran split and Daniel finding it.

Mister Oragahn
March 7th, 2008, 05:18 PM
When we're looking at the original Alteran-Ori feud and the creation of the Ark millions of years ago, you have to put the whole idea of ascension out of your mind. That happened far, far later, independently for both groups.

When the Ark was created they were both offshoots of the same, human-like species. The Ori became fanatical and persecuted the Alterans. The Ark was originally created and programmed to convince them this was wrong.

It's probable that this device would have never worked on the Ori once they ascended. But when they created and started influencing human followers, these mortal beings could be influenced by the Ark. It would seem that the programmed "truth" was not "The Ori are false gods," but more generic, like "It is wrong to persecute others to enforce your religious beliefs."

That sort of message would have been appropriate for the pre-ascension Ori millions of years ago, and would work on their followers today (without completing obliterating Origin as a peaceful religion).

It is evident that the message would need to be fitting for both periods.
That said, considering that they were brainwashed, why would their faith in their gods, still there but now pussyfied, disappear?

Would someone stop believing in God just because he decides, one day, not to hurt in the name of his god anymore?

No.

This is setting an awful false dilemna, in that either you have faith in gods but you're a lunatic extremist, or you're not a lunatic extremist, but then you don't believe in those gods at all.

The only way for this to work would be to convince the Ori pawns that they must not, in a way or another, believe in the Ori... faith powers them (an exploitation of Bernard Werber's story iirc, just with much less style and maturity).

The only way to weaken the Ori or Adria is to erase the faith, not to change its ways.

Gibsnag
March 8th, 2008, 08:55 AM
the Ark was not made to be used against ascended beings it was meant to make
the followers of Origin believe something else. Even Daniel doesnt know what that something else is. it is probably used make the followers believe the same things the alterans believed. there would be no need to stop the followers from worshiping the Ori as gods since neither group had reached ascension

That was how I interpreted it as well.

The fact that the Ark of Truth was useful in defeating the Ori was simply a by-product of the fact that the Ori used people's belief to gain power. The Ark was just supposed to stop the followers of Origin from having faith, but to accept what is basically the scientific method.

Once it was used, it didn't kill Adria but made her vulnerable to Morgan's attack because her power was depleted.

The way I've interpreted the whole 'Origin' thing is that when the Ori / Ancient split occurred everyone was human and non-ascended. Origin was simply a religion (named 'Truth', and which religion doesn't claim to be the truth?) which the Ori followed. The Ancients left and the Ori went about their business, eventually (whenever) found out how to Ascend and did so. They then preceded to create human followers in their pre-Ascended images to use as batteries. I may have missed something or got it completely wrong, but it seems to make sense for me.

Mister Oragahn
March 14th, 2008, 11:25 AM
That was how I interpreted it as well.

The fact that the Ark of Truth was useful in defeating the Ori was simply a by-product of the fact that the Ori used people's belief to gain power. The Ark was just supposed to stop the followers of Origin from having faith, but to accept what is basically the scientific method.

Once it was used, it didn't kill Adria but made her vulnerable to Morgan's attack because her power was depleted.

The way I've interpreted the whole 'Origin' thing is that when the Ori / Ancient split occurred everyone was human and non-ascended. Origin was simply a religion (named 'Truth', and which religion doesn't claim to be the truth?) which the Ori followed. The Ancients left and the Ori went about their business, eventually (whenever) found out how to Ascend and did so. They then preceded to create human followers in their pre-Ascended images to use as batteries. I may have missed something or got it completely wrong, but it seems to make sense for me.

The only message that would be atemporal and work both in the past and present can only be this:

Origin is bull.

Formidable eh?

RepliVeggie
March 14th, 2008, 11:38 AM
I was under the impression that there was the Ori the Alterans and humans they had created already. The Alteran said that the Ori were amassing an army to destroy them. This sounded to me that they were calling there followers to fight. That the Ori were just humans manipulating the followers for whatever reason. Witiher pre-ascension the Ori thought Origin was right or they were just using it to manipulate people.

It seemed to me that Morgan might have reprogrammed it to do the new job.

jenks
March 14th, 2008, 11:53 AM
I was under the impression that there was the Ori the Alterans and humans they had created already. The Alteran said that the Ori were amassing an army to destroy them. This sounded to me that they were calling there followers to fight. That the Ori were just humans manipulating the followers for whatever reason. Witiher pre-ascension the Ori thought Origin was right or they were just using it to manipulate people.

It seemed to me that Morgan might have reprogrammed it to do the new job.

The Alterans and the Ori were both part of the same human civilization. The Ori were religious fanatics and were preparing for war, so the Alterans left. The Ori never created more humans to worship them until after they ascended.

-PITBULL-
March 14th, 2008, 12:44 PM
The timeline doesn't add up in this MOVIE at all ...

But this is what i feel it would have been like ...

ORI & ALTERANS - Both where the same race ( Like Humans today ) But over time created there own GROUPS ( Like we have on Earth ) .

ORI - Begin a religious group wouldn't want nothing to do with SCIENCE .

ALTERANS - The group that believed that ever thing could be answered in some way wanted ANSWERS ...

ORI & ALTERANS -At some point these two groups where working together for TRUE enlightenment , One with the Universe . But could have a difference on how to achieve it .

ALTERANS - Could have ben designing a system to let them Ascend with out true enlightenment . Witch they do have some evidence of that on other planets .

ORI - Begin of a faith group wanted nothing to do with it and wanted true enlightenment , but was having a hard time with it cause they had anger in there minds cause of the Atlerans , and there device they wanted to build ...

At some point both groups could have made it , they could have Ascended to this HIGHER PLAIN . But at this point they both found out there weren't the only ones to Ascend and weren't the first to Ascend .

The Others , could have told them the Rules and how it works up in this new world they where living in , but the Hate that the ORI had was still there , and could have gone on there own to try to take over there HOME Galaxy and to take out the rest of the Atlerans that lived in the ORI Galaxy .

This is when the Battle might have started , At the same time this could be where the First Ascended Alteran might have helped out , and told there brothers about the Ori intentions on take over there home galaxy . The Ascended Alterans could have helped there Bothers by Shielding them from the Ori while they built a way to get out of that galaxy .

This is why over the millions of years the ORI couldn't find the Alterans . A few of the Alterans left in the Ori galaxy might have wanted to help there Brothers tha might have falling to the Ori's hands and made them think they where GODS , This might be where the Ark of Truth came from .

ORI - Where trying to take control but couldn't convince everyone that they where GOD , but could convince the ORI that couldn't Ascend that they where gods , and if they believed in them as GODs , one day they would help there Brothers Ascend to the Heavens with them ...

ALTERANS - They knew the truth from there BROTHERS warnings and wanted to help the others see the truth , Might have even talked to them and tried to convince then that they weren't GODs , but the Ori could have been telling them about False truths or something like that . Thats when the Alterans turned to using the ARK of TRUTH , but at the last min had to leave or would have falling in to the hands of the ORI .

Or something like that .. LOL

Sauron18
March 14th, 2008, 01:31 PM
I really do hope we get more official story about the Ori from interviews, there's a lot of stuff that is simply not clear enough:

What were the basics of their religion?

What sort of technology did they have?

When did they ascend?

What sort of society did they have?

How many of them were there?

All these kinds of things and more which are slightly touched upon. We get hints, and we can also tell several things from logic or watching the show, but not much.

JohnDuh
March 14th, 2008, 01:34 PM
It's simply bull****.

It supposedly reveals a truth (spades of lolz for you) which the creator of the Ark couldn't even know anything about, since there would be no argument.


No, its just marketing. It stops them from believing them.

Erak the Lantean
March 15th, 2008, 09:41 AM
And A bigger question: Did the Alterans that were left in the Ori home galaxy start the anti Ori underground?

Did the combined race control other planets other than just celestis?

WHERE IS THE FREAKING ORI GALAXY!?

jenks
March 15th, 2008, 11:31 AM
What makes you think any Alterans stayed behind?

RepliVeggie
March 15th, 2008, 11:48 AM
Theres no evidence one way or another that there were only the Alterans/Ori and normal humans or not. Maybe it will be touched upon in an interview. I don't think there were any ascended Ori or Alterans at that point. As for how far the Ori galaxy is. I think that likely the Alterans weren't extremely far away. We know that Ida is very close to MW. And Pegasus is maybe 10x as far away as Ida. I think the Ori galaxy is likely millions of times as far away from MW as Pegasus. The Alterans would flee somewhere they fought the Ori could never find them. Also the use of a supergate was obviously needed to get to MW. So the distance had to be immense.

jenks
March 15th, 2008, 11:56 AM
Theres no evidence one way or another that there were only the Alterans/Ori and normal humans or not. Maybe it will be touched upon in an interview. I don't think there were any ascended Ori or Alterans at that point. As for how far the Ori galaxy is. I think that likely the Alterans weren't extremely far away. We know that Ida is very close to MW. And Pegasus is maybe 10x as far away as Ida. I think the Ori galaxy is likely millions of times as far away from MW as Pegasus. The Alterans would flee somewhere they fought the Ori could never find them. Also the use of a supergate was obviously needed to get to MW. So the distance had to be immense.

The Ori and Alterans were normal humans.

Sauron18
March 15th, 2008, 01:47 PM
An update on certain questions, from RC's video interviews in the Stargate MGM homepage:

Someone asked about Amelius & the stargate designs, and whether he truly was the Alteran who designed them, as well as how this made sense with the Ori having Stargate technology as well.....

RC confirmed that Amelius was the origin of the stargates (if not the creator, at least the first to go there) and that the Ori gained their knowledge of the stargates when they ascended.

So I guess this implies the Ori had little to no tech before their ascension, and that all their amazing Ancient-level technology comes from knowledge gained from ascension....

Vala_M
March 15th, 2008, 10:24 PM
I don't think the Ori were ascended until about 2000 years ago or so. Otherwise:

1. They would have wiped out the Alterans immediately millenea ago
2. We know that they wanted to destroy the Ancients, why wait millenea when they could have destroyed them as humans since they ascended millions of years ago to 10000 years ago
3. In "The Pegasus Project", I believe Daniel stated that Merlin descended to work on the Sangraal Because he recognized the thread the Ori would one day become. Implying they weren't ascended until after the Ancients ascended and we know that Merlin began work on the Sangraal around 1000 years ago.

Vala,

RepliVeggie
March 15th, 2008, 11:56 PM
I don't think the Ori were ascended until about 2000 years ago or so. Otherwise:

1. They would have wiped out the Alterans immediately millenea ago
2. We know that they wanted to destroy the Ancients, why wait millenea when they could have destroyed them as humans since they ascended millions of years ago to 10000 years ago
3. In "The Pegasus Project", I believe Daniel stated that Merlin descended to work on the Sangraal Because he recognized the thread the Ori would one day become. Implying they weren't ascended until after the Ancients ascended and we know that Merlin began work on the Sangraal around 1000 years ago.

Vala,

1.) A millennia is only 1000 years. They have likely been ascended about 10-20,000 years or so. And by then the Alterans had been gone 30-50 million years or more.
2.) Likely the Ori before ascending had no idea where the Alteran's went or likely that they had even left. I don't think the planet Ortus Mallum was on was inhabited.
3.) I think what was implied was that he recognized the threat they would become to the Ancients if they ever found out they were still around. Not that he realized they would ascend. But it is possible.

Sauron18
March 16th, 2008, 01:36 AM
I think the Ori could've ascended at any time after the Alterans left their galaxy.

Ascension wouldn't allow them to know everything, so while their "sight" would certainly be a lot better, it would still take time for them to find the Alterans in a such a large universe.

As for when they found them, we can guess that this was around the time when they actually did strike at them, with the plague.

After this most Alterans ascended and well.....outnumbered the Ori on the higher planes, making themeselves and those below safe from that threat.

After this, also, is probably when the Ori decided to seed their galaxy with humans (around the same time the Ancients did too, probably), and the rest is history.

Erak the Lantean
March 16th, 2008, 02:17 AM
I think the Ori could've ascended at any time after the Alterans left their galaxy.

Ascension wouldn't allow them to know everything, so while their "sight" would certainly be a lot better, it would still take time for them to find the Alterans in a such a large universe.

As for when they found them, we can guess that this was around the time when they actually did strike at them, with the plague.

After this most Alterans ascended and well.....outnumbered the Ori on the higher planes, making themeselves and those below safe from that threat.

After this, also, is probably when the Ori decided to seed their galaxy with humans (around the same time the Ancients did too, probably), and the rest is history.


But if the Ori actually did find the Alterans, why didn't they record the location of the milky way galaxy? The only thing the Ori said regarding Alteran Exodus so far was that the Alterans fled to the corners of the Avermackis which we can assume is the Alteran name for the universe.

Sauron18
March 16th, 2008, 02:36 AM
But if the Ori actually did find the Alterans, why didn't they record the location of the milky way galaxy? The only thing the Ori said regarding Alteran Exodus so far was that the Alterans fled to the corners of the Avermackis which we can assume is the Alteran name for the universe.
What do you mean?

The Ori knew (from the moment we met them) the location of the Milky Way, and they knew their ascended rivals lived there.

The only thing they didn't know was that there were normal humans there, which is what the Others hid from them. But the they knew where the galaxy itself was.

Erak the Lantean
March 16th, 2008, 02:58 AM
What do you mean?

The Ori knew (from the moment we met them) the location of the Milky Way, and they knew their ascended rivals lived there.

The only thing they didn't know was that there were normal humans there, which is what the Others hid from them. But the they knew where the galaxy itself was.

My apologies,
I was simply wondering why (if the Ori knew that the Alterans had once lived in the milky way galaxy) why they never sent anything else to destroy them. Clearly a plague would weaken them yes but if the Ori had any sort of knowledge regarding genocidal tactics they would have sent an armada of ships hundreds of centuries ago.

However this theory does discount the idea that the plague was a 'natural' phenonemon(sp?) and implies that the Ori did unleash it.

Offcourse it may be that the Ori were far more arrogant than their Alteran brethren and Ascension only accelerated thier ego trip so they believed that their plague could not be defeated.

Sorry if this does not make grammatical sense, Yesterday I had my wisdom teeth taken out and so I'm still abit groggy.

Prior_of_the_Ori
March 16th, 2008, 04:50 AM
Here's what I think about the timeline with the Ancients:
*The Ancients (both Alterra and Ori) live as one society who begin exploring their own galaxy and make great leaps in technology though it takes hundreds of years as they develop.
*At sometime, they discover Ascension; the process of shedding their corporeal forms and living as energy which became a goal for their race to achieve.
*A split occurs in the Ancients society with the race becoming the Ori, who are in majority, and the Alterra, who are in minority. The former see it religiously while the latter just believe in science.
*The division becomes more violent as the more fanatical members of the Ori rouse their people to exterminate the Alterrans. There is also a repression in technology with only the higher 'priests' being allowed access to.
*The peaceful Alterra retreat to a far off world where they decide on what to do and agree to leave the galaxy to find a new home where they can continue their scientific development.
*Amelius develops the Ark and the working idea of the Stargates. The Ark was designed to change the view points of the Ori many of whom were good people but their leaders were twisting the developed religion. Amelius is convinced not to do so as it would be a crime despite the persecution they are facing. They leave the world and head off into the void between galaxies to find their new home.
*The Ori find out that the Alterra have left and decide to leave them to their fate, perhaps thinking that they might die on their voyage. They set up a base of operations on the planet where the Alterran base was located and perhaps use left over Alterran technology for their own ends. The galaxy continues to regress as they seek to naturally evolve and Ascend.
*After thousands of years journeying through the universe, the Alterrans settle in a new galaxy and attempt to rebuild once more.

The rest we know though do note that I am not saying this is canon just my view and speculation. I think the reason why there were more Ori in the beginning yet few Alterra but the opposite happening after Ascension is because the Ori became corrupted by their own power and would not share it with others. While the Alterrans allowed those who knew of Ascension to join their ranks. Plus I think the natural evolutionary process might have meant that many of those Ori who tried to Ascend died in the process leaving even fewer members to have achieved their goal. Its also possible that initially the Ori were quite benevolent to their followers but became twisted even further after recieving energy willingly from their followers.

The reason I say that is because Merlin himself said that the Ori did have the best of intentions at first, similar to Oma did when she started Ascending people. Also remember that technically quite a few points in Origin arent necessarily bad but are twisted by certain followers like the Administrator Prior who changed the story of Markon in order to suit his purpose in destroying the village in "Line in the Sand". I think quite a few points in Origin are good but were twisted for the Ori's use post Ascension and post when they became corrupted.

I also think Ascension and technological development took a very long time for the Ancients because they were the first sentient and advanced race which meant they had no help and had to do everything from scratch. This would explain why Ascension took so long for them to achieve yet second evolution Humans are capable of it through the help of an Ascended being.

RepliVeggie
March 16th, 2008, 10:19 AM
I am still not 100% sure it was the Ori that hit the Alterans with the plague. If it was I don't think they found the Alterans and sent it there somehow maybe they attacked the Alterans with it before they left and it lay dormant for along time or something along those lines.

Sauron18
March 16th, 2008, 12:33 PM
I am still not 100% sure it was the Ori that hit the Alterans with the plague. If it was I don't think they found the Alterans and sent it there somehow maybe they attacked the Alterans with it before they left and it lay dormant for along time or something along those lines.

I don't know, I feel like making the Ori responsible for the plague that nearly ended the Ancients' civilization would explain the attitude the Others had for them, and the intense fear both Merlin & Morgan had for them.

I mean, if we discount that, the only thing we have is the "threat" to them before they left Celestis, which doesn't seem to have been that much, so I think the Ori must've done something much more terrible (plague) to make the Ancients believe they could really wipe them out.

jenks
March 16th, 2008, 12:59 PM
How could the Ori possibly have created a plague?

Sauron18
March 16th, 2008, 01:07 PM
How could the Ori possibly have created a plague?
Well, at this point they would've already ascended.

jenks
March 16th, 2008, 01:16 PM
Well, at this point they would've already ascended.

If they'd already ascended then why not just wipe the Ancients out using their ascended powers?

Erak the Lantean
March 16th, 2008, 02:04 PM
If they'd already ascended then why not just wipe the Ancients out using their ascended powers?

Writers who couldn't look forward eight years ago?

Jenks btw, Your signature ROCKS.

Sauron18
March 16th, 2008, 02:26 PM
If they'd already ascended then why not just wipe the Ancients out using their ascended powers?
The plague would qualify as them using their ascended powers.

I know you probably mean energy attacks and things like we've seen Ascended beings use before, but when you consider the fact that they'd have to strike at a Spacefaring Empire of that magnitude then those types of attacks, although effective at first, would not be as effective in the end.

If the Ori devastate a planet, then the Ancients on thousands of others would just escape and once again be lost to the Ori. If they release a plague, however, they might be able to take out a larger amount of the population before the Ancients realize what's going on. As would seem to have been the case, with only a small group of Ancients leaving for Pegasus.

That's how I see it anyways, but it makes sense to me......

jenks
March 16th, 2008, 03:03 PM
Wouldn't it make more sense if the plague had nothing to do with the Ori all together?

RepliVeggie
March 16th, 2008, 03:21 PM
I don't know, I feel like making the Ori responsible for the plague that nearly ended the Ancients' civilization would explain the attitude the Others had for them, and the intense fear both Merlin & Morgan had for them.

I mean, if we discount that, the only thing we have is the "threat" to them before they left Celestis, which doesn't seem to have been that much, so I think the Ori must've done something much more terrible (plague) to make the Ancients believe they could really wipe them out.

They know what an Ascended being is capable of that is why they fear them.

Xaeden
March 16th, 2008, 11:26 PM
If they'd already ascended then why not just wipe the Ancients out using their ascended powers?

I'm not saying that I think ascended Ori sent a plaque to destroy the Ancients, but one possible explaination for it would be that Ancients had also ascended at this point and would've prevented a direct attack. We know the Ancients ascended 5-10 million years ago to escape the plaque. However, we do not know that no Ancients ascended prior to this. In fact, it wouldn't make sense. If they were at that level when the plaque hit and capable of achieving ascention in the short amount of time that they had before the plaque killed them, then you would think that some people would've achieved it before this. They, as a species, just had a lot of ties to the physical realm so most strived for physical achievements, but they were not the type to restrict people's actions. So if someone wanted to go of to the side and spend their life working toward ascention, it's reasonable to think they would've been able to do so for quite some time before the plaque.

jenks
March 16th, 2008, 11:38 PM
plague :)

Prior_of_the_Ori
March 17th, 2008, 03:38 AM
We will never know about if the plague was Ori made or something else since TPTB never seem to elaborate on it. Its entirely possible it was Ori made during the time when both races were non-Ascended. The great gulf of space between galaxies might have prevented the Ori from attacking the Ancient Alterrans with perhaps the Stargate being used to deploy the plague. I do like the idea of the Ori being responsible which is what prompted Merlin to see them developing as a threat though.

We will never know... unless of course something comes up soon. All we do know is that supposedly the plague struck the Ancient's empire in their new capital Vis Uban which was never completed because of the plague.

Sauron18
March 17th, 2008, 11:35 AM
Well, hopefully we might learn in interviews and such.....

Also, the main reasons why I believe the Ori had to have ascended at the time was that, according to RCC, they gained the knowledge to make stargate tech (and well, all their other tech) when they ascended, so I doubt they had either the resources or the knowledge to build a gate or create a disease unless some of them ascended...

g.o.d
March 17th, 2008, 12:35 PM
Well, hopefully we might learn in interviews and such.....

interviews and such :S what was the point of making this movie? Cooper could have tell that story in a few interviews :S:S: and they could have saved money

Raven_CWG
March 17th, 2008, 08:04 PM
Just some thoughts to consider...

1. The whole point of showing the Alterans MILLIONS of years ago was to imply that these were not the same Ancients we've known from previous episodes. They were not ancient...yet. They had just barely begun to scratch to surface their technological and evolutionary potential.

2. We still do not know for sure that the Alteran/Ori originated (i.e. evolved) on Celestis, but in the absence of any contradictory evidence it seems reasonable to assume that they did. (I am going to assume for the sake of argument that Celestis is the name of the planet, but even that is not entirely certain.)

3. The next obvious question for me is whether or not either the Alterans or the Ori during that time period had even ventured beyond their planet at all, let alone colonized that whole galaxy. During there little meeting, the Alterans alluded to the fact that they had been forced to hide what they were. Clearly they were far more advanced than their little medieval village would imply...way, WAY more advanced. So, if the Alterans were forced to pretend that they were that far behind their actual technological level (in much the same way as the Genii did to hide from the Wraith), then it would seem to imply one of two things...

a) Either the oppression of the Ori and the teachings of Origin had existed for a very long time and that had led to a nearly stagnant society, whereby most of the planet had never been allowed to develop beyond that primitive stage, and that it was only through centuries (or perhaps millennia) of learning and building in secrete that the Alterans were able to reach their technological level.

Or...

b) The Alterans had once had a much higher level of technological and social development, but when the Ori took over, their society fell into a Dark Ages that force their society back to this very primitive kind of existence; and it was only by the efforts of the Alteran underground that any of their science and technology was preserved.

If the first case is true, then it is highly doubtful that either the Alterans or the Ori had spread to any other worlds. Yet it seems highly doubtful that a ship of both the size and obvious level of technology could have been the product of a relatively small number of Scientists and Philosophers studying and building in secret without any resources or previous space travel experience. Look at how much trouble we (the USA) had just trying to figure out how to put a man to the moon, when we had the full resources of one of the most powerful and wealthy nations on earth. And yet, putting a man on the moon using crude, chemically propelled rockets is a far cry from building some huge spacecraft capable of interstellar travel.

If the second case is true, then the Alterans had almost certainly traveled to other worlds, but to what extent is impossible to know. It does, however, open the possibility that there may very well have been other Alterians out there, other than just the inhabitance of that one village on Celestis.

4. Many people have assumed that the Alterans left Celestis and headed immediately for the Milky Way. There is, however, no direct evidence to support this assumption. The ability to travel from one star system to another within a galaxy is a long way from being able to travel between galaxies. Therefore, it is just as likely (and I think more so) that the Alterans simply left Celestis and went elsewhere else within that galaxy, perhaps meeting up with other Alterans on other worlds. It could have been much later indeed before they left to come here. No telling what technologies they might have left behind that the Ori later found and exploited, including (but not limited to) transport rings and Stargates.

5. The exact timetable of events for the Alterans from the time they came to our galaxy the first time, all the way to the present, is also at best speculative. We know that they came here, settled on Dakara, populated the galaxy with life forms patterned after themselves (i.e. humans), established the Stargate network, set up numerous colonies including the Antarctica colony on Earth, built Atlantis, were inflected by a plague which nearly wiped them out, they then left this galaxy for the Pegasus galaxy where they resided for an extended period of time, populated the Pegasus galaxy with humans including on a planet that was home to the Iratus bug, fought a loosing battle against the Wraith, then about 10,000 yeas ago abandoned Atlantis, and returned to Earth, and sometime in the midst of all of this learned to ascend.

6. Other then the fact that it was very similar to the one that was later used by the Priors against Earth and numerous other worlds, there is no evidence that the plague that inflicted the Alterans was started by the Ori. Perhaps the Ori simply learned of this great Plague that nearly wiped out the Alterans so long ago from probing Daniel’s mind, and found it ironic and fitting to use that same Plague to force the humans of this galaxy into submission as part of their ultimate goal to wipe out the Alterans once and for all.

7. Lastly, we really have very little information about the Ori in general. We know that they and the Alterans were originally the same race, and that they (a) did not share the Alterans policy of non-interference and (b) unlike the Alterans, who believed in science and the pursuit of truth, the Ori clung to superstition and religious zealousness. Despite their ideological differences, thought, one would still expect that from an evolutionary standpoint that both the Ori and the Alterans would have advanced along a similar timeline, which is to say, that the Ori should have been learning to ascend at or about the same time as the Alterans (and not millions of years earlier, which would be the case if they had already assended at the time the Alterans left Celestis). Furthermore, the Ori clearly are not totally against using, or allowing there followers to use technology. We seen their followers use both ships and devices that appear to be par with those used by the Alterans. While it is possible that the Ori stole some of their technology from the Alterans, and that some of the technology they possess may have divined sense they ascended, but it is also very reasonable to assume that over the course of several million years that figured out a few things all on their, even before they ascended. For example, they may have stolen the idea of stargates from the Alterans, but they clearly seem to know as much about the way they work as the Alterans themselves.

Delosian
April 27th, 2008, 05:42 AM
Dr. Carolyn Lam noted in "The Powers That Be" (S09E05) that the Prior plague had similar symptoms to the disease Ayiana was infected with, leading Daniel Jackson to speculate that the Ori were responsible for the plague that nearly wiped out the Ancients in the Milky Way.

Sauron18
April 27th, 2008, 08:15 AM
True, there is no factual connection that ultimately proves the Ori created the plague, but you must admit that they would not hint at such an interesting and possibly logical connection just for fun. Sometimes facts are presented to us in vague manners in this show, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did intend to make them responsible......

Again, this also makes the storyline more logical to me. There's little reason why the Ascended Ancients (AA) would be so afraid of the Ori or certain that any animosity remained at this point in their evolution if they hadn't at some point been somehow threatened by the ascended Ori. So while it's not necessarily true, I do think it's hinted at and that it would be rather interesting.

I do agree with the theory that the Altera might've had a more advanced society before AoT, though I don't think it was as advanced as the previous poster made it seem. I doubt they colonized other planets, and I'd say it was probably a very small society. I fancy the thought that it might've been wiped out by Ori, whom I perceive as having their own separate society in the planet at that time.

In any case, I don't think other planets in that galaxy were colonized, though I do enjoy the thought of the Altera landing in a planet within the galaxy and staying there for a while until they managed to build a ship that could carry more of them across a much greated distance. The technology they left there could've served as the Ori's key source once they ascended and were able to move around more, as well as learn more. RCC said they gained stargate tech (and probably most ancienty tech) when they ascended, but I still find the similarity in design suspicious. Them ascending and finding some fo that tech elsewhere close to them solves this problem very easily.

Anyways, these are all theories, but since the writers seem to prefer leaving these aspects of the mythology for the fanbase to theorize I assume it's all we really can do......

Zamboni
April 27th, 2008, 09:39 AM
The scene shown in the movie occurred long ago when Ancients were still humans.

The Ark would simply convert those who believe in Origin into Atheists.

Basically, if you had the Ark today, you can just flash all the Muslims, Christians, and Hindus, and they'd all turn into scientists and put aside their differences and live in harmony.

Also, the Ancients were *always* Ancients. It's only after they split into two that we know them as "Alterans" and the "Ori".

Then when the plague wiped out most Alterans, they left for Pegasus on Atlantis and became known as "Lanteans".

These days they're just known as "ascended beings" if they're good, "Ori" if they're bad, and "naked archaeologist" if it's Daniel.

Delosian
April 27th, 2008, 05:28 PM
Basically, if you had the Ark today, you can just flash all the Muslims, Christians, and Hindus, and they'd all turn into scientists and put aside their differences and live in harmony.I was under the impression that it convinced people that they were not worshiping real Gods but merely their own people who had managed to ascend. Having a religion doesn't mean you actually have to believe in a supreme being or beings but rather that you have faith in something.

I should point out that Atheism is not a scientific position. If you want to take a scientific position you would be Agnostic. Denying that God may exist is not a position a true scientist would take.

Zamboni
April 27th, 2008, 11:34 PM
I was under the impression that it convinced people that they were not worshiping real Gods but merely their own people who had managed to ascend. Having a religion doesn't mean you actually have to believe in a supreme being or beings but rather that you have faith in something.

I should point out that Atheism is not a scientific position. If you want to take a scientific position you would be Agnostic. Denying that God may exist is not a position a true scientist would take.Well if a Christian does not worship Jesus, or in your words, does not believe Jesus to be the "one true god", then isn't he (or she) basically an atheist?

We have no way of knowing whether the Ark simply disillusions a person of religion or the idea of religion. However it is more than likely for a person who believes in no specific dogmatic belief to trust in logic and science.

I mean, they certainly are not going to follow Tom Cruise and convert to Scientology now are they? (well I hope not anyway)

RepliVeggie
April 28th, 2008, 11:11 AM
The Ark convinced people that the Ori were not gods. Not that there is no such thing as gods anywhere.

jamesgilfoyle
April 29th, 2008, 09:23 AM
I can only assume that the 'Truth' that the Ark taught to those who follow, or who are the Ori is the TRUE teachings and meanings of Origin - and not the misguided words of the Priors under the Ori.

THIS truth is the Origin that Tomin began to see - and the Origin that kept him fighting (as he says) when he was being tortured.

I guess this is inferred by the way that Daniel says that TRUTH means ORIGIN in ancient - something he realised when Adria was talking.

So i guess the whole Alteran/Ori conflict was basically based on beliefs - and the belief system of the Ori was wrong and misguided; believing themseleves to be gods because of Ascension and passing this belief onto their followers forcably. The Alterans however believed in and i quote directly from the movie "We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, through argument and debate, but, most of all, freedom of will." which is the TRUTH of Origin, and what is contained in the Ark.

Zamboni
April 29th, 2008, 05:17 PM
Also, I strongly believe that the Ori had very advanced technologies, despite their religious-centered society, for the following reasons:

1. Ori both engineered and delivered the plague across the galaxy.

2. The Alterans escaped to a different galaxy. If the Ori are technologically primitive, then why escape the galaxy when moving to a different planet would have the same effects?

And for those who thinks the Ori created the plague after ascension and had zero technology before, that would mean the following:

1. The Ori managed to achieve ascension hundreds if not thousands of years before the Alterans, without the research and technological aids that Alterans had.

2. The Ori came to the Milky Way, but instead of killing all their enemies, the Ori let some leave for Pegasus.

3. The Ori, instead of creating human worshippers in the Milky Way like they did in their own galaxy, left the Milky Way altogether leaving the Alterans to ascend, reseed the Milky Way, and eventually allowing Merlin to design an anti-Ori weapon.

It is ridiculous to think the Ori would just leave a job half-done if they had the power of a higher plane of existence.

jenks
April 29th, 2008, 05:19 PM
Also, I strongly believe that the Ori had very advanced technologies, despite their religious-centered society, for the following reasons:

1. Ori both engineered and delivered the plague across the galaxy.

Speculation.


2. The Alterans escaped to a different galaxy. If the Ori are technologically primitive, then why escape the galaxy when moving to a different planet would have the same effects?

You could say the same about the plague in the Milky Way, yet they still went to Pegasus.

Zamboni
April 29th, 2008, 05:28 PM
Speculation.A more logical speculation than saying the Ori did not create the plague, the Ori ascended much sooner than the Alterans, or that the Ori felt it necessary to leave some Alterans alive.



You could say the same about the plague in the Milky Way, yet they still went to Pegasus.The Milky Way is a galaxy. The plague was a galaxy-wide plague that "wiped out the galaxy". The Alterans even tried time travel (to no avail), the "escape the galaxy" plan worked better. The plague was *that* bad.

The Lateans created the Dakara device in order to reseed "the galaxy"... So going to a different planet when the entire galaxy is infected does "nothing". The chance of some random infected people traveling through the gates to infect the new colony would be too great.

jenks
April 29th, 2008, 05:39 PM
A more logical speculation than saying the Ori did not create the plague, the Ori ascended much sooner than the Alterans, or that the Ori felt it necessary to leave some Alterans alive.

Where's the logic in assuming the plague was made by the Ori? I makes no sense at all.


The Milky Way is a galaxy. The plague was a galaxy-wide plague that "wiped out the galaxy". The Alterans even tried time travel (to no avail), the "escape the galaxy" plan worked better. The plague was *that* bad.

The Lateans created the Dakara device in order to reseed "the galaxy"... So going to a different planet when the entire galaxy is infected does "nothing". The chance of some random infected people traveling through the gates to infect the new colony would be too great.

First, there's no way the plague would have affected every planet in the galaxy, and second, like you said they had the Dakara device, so why didn't they just wipe out all life and start again in the Milky Way instead of starting from scratch in Pegasus? Because they're explorers, it's what they do.

Zamboni
April 29th, 2008, 06:00 PM
Where's the logic in assuming the plague was made by the Ori? I makes no sense at all.
Indeed. However here's the quote from the show that bridges the connection:


JACKSON: alright…I don't know if this helps or not but we know the ancients were almost wiped out by a similar plague *Lam nods* I'm just bringing it up in case there's something in the research that's already been done.

VALA: You think the Ori gave it to them? *he shrugs*

LAM: I am aware that sg-1 was infected with a virus and then cured by an ancient found frozen down in Antarctica. Now…the symptoms and rate of progression here…are remarkably similar.


First, there's no way the plague would have affected every planet in the galaxy, and second, like you said they had the Dakara device, so why didn't they just wipe out all life and start again in the Milky Way instead of starting from scratch in Pegasus? Because they're explorers, it's what they do.Actually, it's because they built the Dakara device way later, after they returned from Pegasus thousands of years later, when all life in the galaxy have been destroyed. The Lanteans couldn't bear the thought of an entirely dead galaxy, so they built the device.

jenks
April 29th, 2008, 06:11 PM
Nope. They must have used it to recreate life before they left, as by time they got back humans had already evolved.

Zamboni
April 29th, 2008, 06:20 PM
Nope. They must have used it to recreate life before they left, as by time they got back humans had already evolved.Well then, they probably left the galaxy because they didn't want to infect the newly seeded life in the Milky Way.

jenks
April 29th, 2008, 06:24 PM
Well then, they probably left the galaxy because they didn't want to infect the newly seeded life in the Milky Way.

So instead they went to Pegasus and seeded life, running the exact same risk?

Zamboni
April 30th, 2008, 02:30 AM
So instead they went to Pegasus and seeded life, running the exact same risk?It was repeatedly mentioned in the show that the plague wiped out the galaxy, what does it matter for which reasons other than to escape the plague that the Alterans went to Pegasus?

Are you going to argue that the Alterans attempted time travel also for the purpose of "exploration"? And why did the Lanteans came back to Earth? To explore the same planet again? You simply cannot generalize all of the Alterans' motivation on "exploration".

jenks
April 30th, 2008, 09:56 AM
It was repeatedly mentioned in the show that the plague wiped out the galaxy, what does it matter for which reasons other than to escape the plague that the Alterans went to Pegasus?

Are you going to argue that the Alterans attempted time travel also for the purpose of "exploration"? And why did the Lanteans came back to Earth? To explore the same planet again? You simply cannot generalize all of the Alterans' motivation on "exploration".

Why are you purposely taking this argument in circles? I've already said that the plague is irrelevant, they had the Dakara device, so they could have reseeded life in the Milky Way if they had wanted to, but they never, they started again in Pegasus. Why did they do that? They had the means to get rid of the plague in the Milky Way and then start again, why would they bother going to Pegasus at all? What other explanation is there other than exploration?

Zamboni
April 30th, 2008, 10:52 AM
They had the means to get rid of the plague in the Milky Way and then start again, why would they bother going to Pegasus at all? What other explanation is there other than exploration?They DID NOT have the means to defeat the plague. Those who were not infected left for Pegasus to avoid getting the disease. That's why Aiyana was left. They also went to Pegasus because they wanted to ascend in peace. Perhaps they feared that the Ori would soon invade because the Ori plague proved how powerful the Ori are now.

The Dakara device doesn't cure plagues. It functions by resequencing basic atomic / protein structures to create the basis for life. Stop giving Ancient devices powers beyond what was described in the show.

Sauron18
April 30th, 2008, 12:34 PM
The Dakara weapon destroyed the plague when it destroyed everything else, so in that sense it does destroy it, it cleansed the galaxy.

However, any ancient already infected would remain so unless they let the wave hit them which would kill them anyways.

I restate my opinion that the plague was created after they ascended, it just fits more cleanly, in my opinion, with what has been presented.

jenks
April 30th, 2008, 01:20 PM
They DID NOT have the means to defeat the plague. Those who were not infected left for Pegasus to avoid getting the disease. That's why Aiyana was left. They also went to Pegasus because they wanted to ascend in peace. Perhaps they feared that the Ori would soon invade because the Ori plague proved how powerful the Ori are now.

The Dakara device doesn't cure plagues. It functions by resequencing basic atomic / protein structures to create the basis for life. Stop giving Ancient devices powers beyond what was described in the show.

Haven't you been paying attention? The Dakara device is capable of wiping out all life in the galaxy, that includes the plague.

Zamboni
May 1st, 2008, 06:08 PM
Haven't you been paying attention? The Dakara device is capable of wiping out all life in the galaxy, that includes the plague.Read my post *carefully*.

I wrote, and I quote myself, "The Dakara device doesn't cure plagues.". Doesn't cure... "CURE"!!!

What good is wiping out the plague if the patients turn into non-matter? That's like saying "I found a cure for cancer by detonating nuclear bombs beside the infected". Sure that destroys the plague, but ARE YOU FLIPPING NUTS!?

Why else do you think so many people resist chemo therapy when other options are present? Total annihilation is NOT a good medicine!!!

I can't believe I took time out of my GTA4 session to argue with people who don't even understand the basic concepts in life. ARG!!!

*waves arms wildly in anger*

jenks
May 1st, 2008, 06:27 PM
Who said anything about destroying the patients? The device doesn't effect the whole galaxy, only the planet it is on and any other planets that are connected via a wormhole through the Stargate. The Ancients could have easily wiped out the plague using the Dakara device and then reseeded the galaxy, but they never, they went to Pegasus instead. Why do you think that is?

Zamboni
May 2nd, 2008, 05:50 PM
@jenks:
Not gonna point out how ridiculous your claims are. Just watch "Reckoning" again, season 8 episode 17. Listen carefully to the reason why Sam had to adjust the device.

jenks
May 2nd, 2008, 05:58 PM
She had to adjust the device so it would only affect the bonds between the replicators and not all living matter, what's your point?