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elbo
March 1st, 2008, 01:56 PM
Every time they encouter a duplicate they start to act paranoic about it. Yes, i mean Shepp, Rodney, Ronon, Teyla, Sam, Keller, everybody: they have difficulties expressing a coherent speech, throw up funny/scared sights, they are always suspicious, place few armed guard excorts to make the guest feel like a prisoner and unwelcome.

Finding Beckett was oviously an accident so coundn't be a wraith trojan horse, but they still follow their paranoia and throw dirty talks behind him ... 'leading them into an ambush' that's crazy. If everything were to be premeditated, the Wraith would have sent an infected clone to spread an airborn virus, game over. It's not like they are very hard to capture; all it takes is 1-2 darts with beaming technology.

But what will happen if they find a cure for Carson's condition? The fact that he is a clone, make him less real? Would he be allowed to the same rights like the original? Or the black suits will throw him in a A51 small cells under constant observation?

At least this litlle episode proove few points i made for 'Outcast'. A biological entity can be subject to the same treatment and reprogramming like a technological one. There is a little science called genetics that work wonders same as the programming base codes, especially in sci-fi.

Anyway it seems curious their reaction to this type of artificial life forms, who happen to be, without a choise of their own. It would seem that technological we advance very fast, few hundred of years, but the writers have difficulties to make the same advancement in our philosophical/moral code, ledding to some 'hard to belive situations'. They mentained the short-sightness and intolerance of the 20 and 21 cencturies, Earth and added some very nice weaponry to protect that intolerance and short-sightness. In this scenario it only take a power-hungry politician, Kinsley type to maipulate the situation and to take control and start a crusade in the galaxy.

This seem harsh i know, but in my opinion they reached a point when there is no sense in keeping all this 'life on other planets' a secret and it is also dangerous. People from Earth have the right to know and to choose, for example learning advance astro-phiscs rather than doing other lauzy jobs or tasks (maby this way, they wouldn't look to a cone or a replica like to an abomination). Didn't you find strange that people who hunt and fish for a living get to travel on other planets and to eventualy explore ancient outposts and on Earth people who came close to the truth are killed by strange vehicles and threaten with imprisonment and treason (electic chair?)? I see how this can be necesarely at the begining, but we are nearly at the end. We have strong hold in 2 galaxies and no offence but Atlantis is no 'hail mary in the Eart's history', if the people who has the right to decide the scentists to study it is Weir or Woolsey or another office dork. So as i see it the Earth look more and more like a prison and its inhabitans like prisoners or tax payers whatever, both phisically and mentaly. If the news would be out, i had a feeling that many people would want out both phisically and mentaly.

metabog
March 1st, 2008, 02:32 PM
What you are describing is a century old science fiction concept (wether or not clones are the same people as the originals), and also a century old dillema over cloning in real life.

Willow'sCat
March 1st, 2008, 02:32 PM
I assume your point is that they should have immediately trusted Carson and all he had to say, despite the fact he was dead?

If that is not your point you are going to have to clue me in as I couldn't make sense of your post, sorry. :o

If the first part is correct: They are a military base, Carson turned out to be a risk, lead them into an ambush, he is controllable by Michael (wonder if he told them that when he got back to Atlantis?) and he is NOT CARSON anyway.

That thing is not Carson. :rolleyes: They may as well have made him a Replicator 'cause I will never except him as anything but second rate and not to be trusted. :cool:

Aurora24
March 1st, 2008, 02:36 PM
Actually I was a bit surprised about the lack of trust too, or more accurately I was surprised that Rodney who is usually really suspicious was the one to automatically accept Carson even after it was revealed that he was a clone. I guess I would have liked to have seen some more close interaction with Carson and Sheppard or Ronon. I didn't like the distance although I suppose it was understandable since he wasn't technically the "real" Carson.

Willow'sCat
March 1st, 2008, 03:29 PM
The weakest part of this whole episode, and there were oodles of weak parts, was Rodney's blind acceptance of Carson as Carson. That goes against all we know about Rodney and it made me wonder if tptb even cared about that, I think they just wanted to get this out of the way... have Carson back and have us as an audience just shrug off any of these little inconsistencies in characters.

I say little but really it is a huge fraking inconsistency for McKay. :cool:

elbo
March 1st, 2008, 03:32 PM
I assume your point is that they should have immediately trusted Carson and all he had to say, despite the fact he was dead?

If the first part is correct: They are a military base, Carson turned out to be a risk, lead them into an ambush, he is controllable by Michael (wonder if he told them that when he got back to Atlantis?) and he is NOT CARSON anyway.

That thing is not Carson. :rolleyes: They may as well have made him a Replicator 'cause I will never except him as anything but second rate and not to be trusted. :cool:

Michael needed both his compassion and expertise to clone him with the exact personality traits of Carson Beckett. He didn't control him, but merely placed a protection block in his genetic code. They should have made him welcome in Atlantis after 2 years of imprisonment and mental torture not treat him like a freak; this is what the original Carson would have probably wanted.

You see things from a very common perspective, a clone is not necesarely a burden or a problem, but can be a second chance, a new Carson's continuity, in the context with his death, an heir, and a extra briliant phisician saving maby more lifes than his predecesor.

I won't go in a 'security risk' debate again as we go nowhere with people who can make from anything a security risk, and the truth is that anything can be a security risk in a sci-fi; even Sam can have a goa'uld implanted as we speak.

There 2 things that bother me though:

1. Earthlings lack of respect for sentient life in general. They are very sensitive when it came to the life forms created by artificial means. You wouldn't think that they fly in spcecrafts in different galaxies where the meet and met hudreds of species and posibilities; their reactions are not sci-fi adjusted, but made from the view point of some 2007-2008 human who know that in his book he is still alone in the universe.

2. Atlantis main characters reactions to these clone/replica encoutres in 'Kindred' and 'Mortal Coil', even with the ones that represent extentions of dead people, close friends are very cold and suspicios and full of prejudicies. The concept of unicity is explored to extrem with no concern for the duplicate feelings, who may not be the original but share his personality and is entitled to use it as a result of his creation.

I don't like the ideea that so many good people (Carson even Ava Dixon) are seen like outcasts just because their different means of creations or nature. There are a lot of Earth's born citizens who have more rights and deserve less.

Willow'sCat
March 1st, 2008, 03:42 PM
Well I totally disagree:cool: Carson IS dead. You might like to invite strangers into your home 'cause they look like a duck but I am less obliging.:rolleyes:

Carson is a freak! If I wasn't an atheist I would call him an insult to God. But as I am an atheist I will just go with freak. :p

Jumper_One
March 1st, 2008, 03:47 PM
Well I totally disagree:cool: Carson IS dead. You might like to invite strangers into your home 'cause they look like a duck but I am less obliging.:rolleyes:

Carson is a freak! If I wasn't an atheist I would call him an insult to God. But as I am an atheist I will just go with freak. :p

but we're glad he's back right? :D

elbo
March 1st, 2008, 03:51 PM
Well I totally disagree:cool: Carson IS dead. You might like to invite strangers into your home 'cause they look like a duck but I am less obliging.:rolleyes:

Carson is a freak! If I wasn't an atheist I would call him an insult to God. But as I am an atheist I will just go with freak. :p

There is no need to exagerate to made your anti-point. :D

BTW, Rodney was probably the coldest of all, despite trying to be very talkative and suportive to the ideea, he didn't had an healty eye exchange with Carson until he got frozen. His behaviour is similar with one he had when Michael was in the converting process. DH, a great actor, but not Rodney. :)

Myles
March 1st, 2008, 06:29 PM
Michael needed both his compassion and expertise to clone him with the exact personality traits of Carson Beckett. He didn't control him, but merely placed a protection block in his genetic code. They should have made him welcome in Atlantis after 2 years of imprisonment and mental torture not treat him like a freak; this is what the original Carson would have probably wanted.

You see things from a very common perspective, a clone is not necesarely a burden or a problem, but can be a second chance, a new Carson's continuity, in the context with his death, an heir, and a extra briliant phisician saving maby more lifes than his predecesor.

I won't go in a 'security risk' debate again as we go nowhere with people who can make from anything a security risk, and the truth is that anything can be a security risk in a sci-fi; even Sam can have a goa'uld implanted as we speak.

There 2 things that bother me though:

1. Earthlings lack of respect for sentient life in general. They are very sensitive when it came to the life forms created by artificial means. You wouldn't think that they fly in spcecrafts in different galaxies where the meet and met hudreds of species and posibilities; their reactions are not sci-fi adjusted, but made from the view point of some 2007-2008 human who know that in his book he is still alone in the universe.

2. Atlantis main characters reactions to these clone/replica encoutres in 'Kindred' and 'Mortal Coil', even with the ones that represent extentions of dead people, close friends are very cold and suspicios and full of prejudicies. The concept of unicity is explored to extrem with no concern for the duplicate feelings, who may not be the original but share his personality and is entitled to use it as a result of his creation.

I don't like the ideea that so many good people (Carson even Ava Dixon) are seen like outcasts just because their different means of creations or nature. There are a lot of Earth's born citizens who have more rights and deserve less.


Well I totally disagree:cool: Carson IS dead. You might like to invite strangers into your home 'cause they look like a duck but I am less obliging.:rolleyes:

Carson is a freak! If I wasn't an atheist I would call him an insult to God. But as I am an atheist I will just go with freak. :p

Jeez. You both have ideas that are way extreme, but on opposite sides of things.

Carson is dead. There's no doubt about. Not taking precautions would be negligent. Once they were ambushed after he told them a location they had every right to be more suspicious. They had no idea what Michael had done to him. If he could imprint safe-guards into his makeup then who knows what else he could do and Atlantis was completely right not to accept him without question or doubt.

On the other hand, being a clone doesn't mean he needs to be treated like a freak or locked up or something. And it isn't his fault that he was cloned in the first place, so it's just plain wrong to act like he's some kind of monster. He obviously only wanted to help, and is basically the same Carson from before. Just because he's a clone doesn't mean he's not human.

Mardius
March 1st, 2008, 06:54 PM
diddnt the fact that micheal could "compel" carson to not shoot him proof that they were right in their caution?

Willow'sCat
March 1st, 2008, 08:15 PM
but we're glad he's back right? No :cool:

I am not happy at all about it. I think it is the single worse thing SGA has done... besides putting Weir in the leadership role of course.:cool: I am anti-Carson coming back, more now then I was before.:cool:

And again I have to say it... Carson is still dead. This is not Carson. :P He is human in a freak kind of way, but he is not Carson Beckett. I think Carson would have been appalled myself. I know I wouldn't want a clone running around taking over from where I left off... that is just creepy. :S

desh
March 1st, 2008, 09:11 PM
I prefer to think of him as Carson 2.0: The new and improved formula. Now available in several exciting new citrus-fruit flavors.

Or we can say that Michael invented New Carson, better tasting but with a calorie-free yet slightly carcinogenic aspartame substitute.

butchinharriman
March 1st, 2008, 09:31 PM
Why do you call him a freak? To an athiest, a clone with all the same memories and experiences would make him the same person. Only someone that believed we had souls would say it was not Carson, in one form or the other.

In Farscape, which John was real after he was copied? No test could find any differences between the 2. Making them the same person. I would say the same applies to any clone if the clone had all the same memories as the original. If the clone had no memories of the original then the clone would be a completely new person.

Willow'sCat
March 1st, 2008, 10:04 PM
Why do you call him a freak? To an athiest, a clone with all the same memories and experiences would make him the same person. Only someone that believed we had souls would say it was not Carson, in one form or the other.According to who?:cool: You can be an atheist and still believe a clone is an abomination to nature. You can believe in a god and still think he is not, you can be gay and a Christian! :D;) Welcome to the year 2008! :P

This Carson is not the real one so he is a feak. :P

Detox
March 1st, 2008, 10:07 PM
Well, isn't this the whole beauty of Stargate?

These people act in exactly the same way we would act. I mean, how would you feel if your best friend died, and two years later, you find a clone of him?

Would you just be all cool with it?

AutumnDream
March 1st, 2008, 10:36 PM
Carter was the only one acting appropriately. Atlantis is effectively a military base at this point. Its security is crucial in many, many regards. It was actually extremely sloppy of them to allow the clone to leave his "cell" at all, or even keep him on Atlantis.

The.Road.Not.Taken
March 2nd, 2008, 08:33 AM
Carter was the only one acting appropriately. Atlantis is effectively a military base at this point. Its security is crucial in many, many regards. It was actually extremely sloppy of them to allow the clone to leave his "cell" at all, or even keep him on Atlantis.

he is a exact image of carson though they all have feeling towards him and he was under constant guard at all times

jds1982
March 2nd, 2008, 09:05 AM
Hmm do I think being suspicious of the clone your enemy made and keeping him under guard is wrong? No I do not, it's called being smart and cautious. In that instance suspician is called for. He could have been a programmed enemy agent, and to not be wary of him would be not only stupid but negligent.

desh
March 2nd, 2008, 09:31 AM
Lighten up, people. The writers could not have brought us the real Carson without the whole situation seeming incredibly contrived, much more so than it is now. Obviously they wrote themselves into a dead-end given the very blatant death that they gave him, so Clone Carson is the best they could do to bring him back in any plausible way, and it's what we have to, as always when it comes to Stargate, simply accept the loophole. We wanted Carson back; now we have him and with the added bonus of a potential story arc, so let's just move on.

Mr Prophet
March 2nd, 2008, 09:43 AM
We wanted Carson back; now we have him and with the added bonus of a potential story arc, so let's just move on.

Actually, it's pretty clear that a lot of people didn't want Carson back, which doesn't, incidentally, mean that they didn't like the character.

As for the question of trust, the SGC - and specifically Carter - trusted Replicarter and got burned, badly. Their experience is against trusting someone just because they look like someone you know.

kymeric
March 2nd, 2008, 11:10 AM
The weakest part of this whole episode, and there were oodles of weak parts, was Rodney's blind acceptance of Carson as Carson. That goes against all we know about Rodney and it made me wonder if tptb even cared about that, I think they just wanted to get this out of the way... have Carson back and have us as an audience just shrug off any of these little inconsistencies in characters.

I say little but really it is a huge fraking inconsistency for McKay. :cool:

I think hes a socially awkward nerd whos best friends back from the dead. Im suprised he didnt run over and hug him 2bhonest. My dead friend comes back and u can be darn sure ill be beside myself with happyness even knowing hes prolly a bioweapon or a evil machiavellian scheme, its my bro u kno?

Briangate78
March 2nd, 2008, 11:45 AM
Clones are people too! :S :p

haloplayer
March 2nd, 2008, 12:08 PM
Clones are people too! :S :p

They are but Clone Carson is still not the original Carson. For one thing is that the memory's that the clone has of Carson's parents are not real. Clone Carson also has no parents.

I still believe that he is important but the Atlantis expedition was right to be suspicious of him. For all we know Clone Carson wanted to be good but he was really a sleeper agent (look it up on the wiki) in which Micheal could control him with his mind or give him a special order at the right time to kill the Atlantis expedition (like brainwashing).

ciannwn
March 2nd, 2008, 01:28 PM
Carson is a freak! If I wasn't an atheist I would call him an insult to God. But as I am an atheist I will just go with freak. :p

What about the Asgard? They cloned new bodies and moved their consciousnesses into them when their old bodies died. How did this work? Was there some immaterial aspect of them which literally changed bodies or did the new body get a copy of the 'consciousness information'? Seeing as everything in the Stargate universe seems to have a materialistic explanation, it was likely that 'consciousness information' was copied into the new body's brain. If so, were they freaks as well?

Willow'sCat
March 2nd, 2008, 01:55 PM
What about the Asgard? They cloned new bodies and moved their consciousnesses into them when their old bodies died. How did this work? Was there some immaterial aspect of them which literally changed bodies or did the new body get a copy of the 'consciousness information'? Seeing as everything in the Stargate universe seems to have a materialistic explanation, it was likely that 'consciousness information' was copied into the new body's brain. If so, were they freaks as well?Yep, freaks every last one of them! :P

ciannwn
March 2nd, 2008, 02:10 PM
Yep, freaks every last one of them! :P

This topic is touching on real life philosophical issues related to the transhumanists' dream of copying oneself into a computer. The following article is a good example -

http://futurefire.net/2005.03/nonfiction/consciousness.html

If the transhumanists have their way we'll all be freaks. Or the copies of ourselves will be freaks because they won't be us. Or whatever. :D

Willow'sCat
March 2nd, 2008, 02:35 PM
This topic is touching on real life philosophical issues related to the transhumanists' dream of copying oneself into a computer. The following article is a good example -

http://futurefire.net/2005.03/nonfiction/consciousness.html

If the transhumanists have their way we'll all be freaks. Or the copies of ourselves will be freaks because they won't be us. Or whatever. :DAre these the same peeps who want to build robots they can have sex with? :S Freaks!

ciannwn
March 2nd, 2008, 02:47 PM
Are these the same peeps who want to build robots they can have sex with? :S Freaks!

No. They would like to be uploaded into robot bodies or computers. A lot of them probably still want sex, though, even if it's only the virtual reality sort. If such a thing is possible and 99% of the population gets uploaded in the future, the ones who don't want to be copied would probably be regarded as freaks. :D

The philosophical questions regarding Beckett being real or not also apply to this concept of the future.

beale947
March 2nd, 2008, 04:19 PM
Actually, it's pretty clear that a lot of people didn't want Carson back, which doesn't, incidentally, mean that they didn't like the character.



And alot more people wanted him back. It was the single worst decision ever made by TPTB, and even bringing in the beautiful Jewel Straite didn't made it any better.

I'm glad he's back.

rob_squared
March 2nd, 2008, 04:48 PM
Lighten up, people. The writers could not have brought us the real Carson without the whole situation seeming incredibly contrived, much more so than it is now. Obviously they wrote themselves into a dead-end given the very blatant death that they gave him, so Clone Carson is the best they could do to bring him back in any plausible way, and it's what we have to, as always when it comes to Stargate, simply accept the loophole. We wanted Carson back; now we have him and with the added bonus of a potential story arc, so let's just move on.

I think it was obvious how they could bring back the real Carson, but I don't think people would have liked it. They could have had it be that the Carson who went back to Atlantis and died was a clone meant to distract the team from looking for the real Carson. Though they would have had to change this episode a lot since Carson wouldn't have gotten sick. In fact, they could still bring back Carson. After all, if he had one Carson working on those henchmen, wouldn't it be good to have multiple Carsons (including an original to make backups?)

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 2nd, 2008, 05:25 PM
Actually I was a bit surprised about the lack of trust too, or more accurately I was surprised that Rodney who is usually really suspicious was the one to automatically accept Carson even after it was revealed that he was a clone. I guess I would have liked to have seen some more close interaction with Carson and Sheppard or Ronon. I didn't like the distance although I suppose it was understandable since he wasn't technically the "real" Carson.

Rodney was almost clingy in his accepting-ness, wasn't he? He's just very, very glad to have Carson back in some form. That kind of response could be less than good for this Carson in the long run, though, because it could inhibit his development of his own identity.


They are but Clone Carson is still not the original Carson. For one thing is that the memory's that the clone has of Carson's parents are not real. Clone Carson also has no parents.

Genetically speaking, Carson1's parents are also Carson2's parents. They share the same blood.


I still believe that he is important but the Atlantis expedition was right to be suspicious of him. For all we know Clone Carson wanted to be good but he was really a sleeper agent (look it up on the wiki) in which Micheal could control him with his mind or give him a special order at the right time to kill the Atlantis expedition (like brainwashing).

Or, given that Michael is the one who put in the contents of Carson2's brain, he could have made him evil. He could have made him Dr. Mengele. They were right to have a healthy suspicion until it was clear he was on their side, which it is now is.

jasminaGo
March 3rd, 2008, 06:10 AM
Actually, it's pretty clear that a lot of people didn't want Carson back, which doesn't, incidentally, mean that they didn't like the character.

As for the question of trust, the SGC - and specifically Carter - trusted Replicarter and got burned, badly. Their experience is against trusting someone just because they look like someone you know.

I agree with you on both subjects. Especially the second one. You can't in right mind go: oh you died last year, but now that we found your clone created by our enemie, we're happy and you're free to do what ever you want. And their caution was on the spot. Cause Carson did lead them to an ambush, even if he didn't wanted to and he was subjected to Michael's control. Even if it is limited Carson still presents security risk.

desh
March 3rd, 2008, 07:01 AM
I think it was obvious how they could bring back the real Carson, but I don't think people would have liked it. They could have had it be that the Carson who went back to Atlantis and died was a clone meant to distract the team from looking for the real Carson

Ok, but where would Michael have had the time and equipment to produce a virtually identical clone of Carson and to send the clone back to Atlantis with the team? He and the other Wraith were trying to escape the planet, assuming that Carson was cloned during that period.

Also, why does the clone need a new identity? It's not like he had a choice of whether or not to be cloned; he just found himself awake after what he thought was a period of unconsciousness, with no discontinuity or doubt of his own identity. It's not like he's a body-snatcher or a doppelganger (as far as we know).

As far as the mind control thing goes, Carson understands that he is vulnerable to Michael's psychic powers, and thus does not object to being under observation. In fact, if he really is the Carson Beckett we know, he should have no objection whatsoever. Perhaps when Michael is killed (assuming he doesn't pull a Baal and clone himself), Carson will be absolved.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 3rd, 2008, 10:30 AM
It's not like he's a body-snatcher or a doppelganger (as far as we know).

I suppose that by 'doppelganger' you mean 'shapeshifter'. Anyone that looks like someone else can be called a doppelganger.

The thing is, the difference between Carson1 and Carson2 is like that between identical twin brothers. The fact that Carson2 was born artificially and has implants of Carson1's memories confuses the matter, but they are two men. Carson2 is just as worthy of life and respect as Carson1, and I'm okay with his addition to the recurring cast.


Ok, but where would Michael have had the time and equipment to produce a virtually identical clone of Carson and to send the clone back to Atlantis with the team? He and the other Wraith were trying to escape the planet, assuming that Carson was cloned during that period.


Good point. I've accepted Carson's death.

elbo
March 3rd, 2008, 10:41 AM
I missed the part where Carson lead the team into an ambush. An ambush assume premeditation not random occurence of 2 armed parties. Geez!

Anyway Carson only wanted to help finding Teyla and the athosians and the atlanteeans took that little info like their only leed. They weren't fooled by the lead and if that planet was as Carson said visited by Michael in the past it would have prudent for them to be more carefull not all 4 barge in the bar and interogate the barman. This is not how a recon should be made. Or where did they think that Carson's lead will take them? In a planet of Atlantis worshipers? Guys, Sam was wrong, to blame Carson for that incident. Don't take everything for granted, many such lines are incorect. The corect interpretation: the lead which they willingly decided to follow, with information provided by Carson lead them in a little shootout. This should be a lesson for them do be more carefull when entering in enemy teritory. Both Michael and the Wraith have a vast network of worshipers, spies and humans doing their biding.

And in case you missed the point, the source of the coldness against Carson was not the fact that he was created by enemy, but because he was a clone. The prudence is ok, the prejudicies are not.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 3rd, 2008, 11:17 AM
I missed the part where Carson lead the team into an ambush. An ambush assume premeditation not random occurence of 2 armed parties. Geez!

Anyway Carson only wanted to help finding Teyla and the athosians and the atlanteeans took that little info like their only leed. They weren't fooled by the lead and if that planet was as Carson said visited by Michael in the past it would have prudent for them to be more carefull not all 4 barge in the bar and interogate the barman. This is not how a recon should be made. Or where did they think that Carson's lead will take them? In a planet of Atlantis worshipers? Guys, Sam was wrong, to blame Carson for that incident. Don't take everything for granted, many such lines are incorect. The corect interpretation: the lead which they willingly decided to follow, with information provided by Carson lead them in a little shootout. This should be a lesson for them do be more careful when entering in enemy teritory. Both Michael and the Wraith have a vast network of worshipers, spies and humans doing their bididng.

This is true. Sam was wrong to imply an ambush, when it was very likely from the get-go for a planet used by Michael to have some of his armed followers still on it. I'm sure there are various tactical errors in the team's actions compared to the real military. Did they even leave a lookout?


And in case you missed the point, the source of the coldness against Carson was not the fact that he was created by enemy, but because he was a clone. The prudence is ok, the prejudicies are not.

I didn't see any coldness because he was a clone in general and not specifically because he was a clone made by Michael, but I don't claim to notice everything.

jasminaGo
March 3rd, 2008, 11:35 AM
I missed the part where Carson lead the team into an ambush. An ambush assume premeditation not random occurence of 2 armed parties. Geez!

Anyway Carson only wanted to help finding Teyla and the athosians and the atlanteeans took that little info like their only leed. They weren't fooled by the lead and if that planet was as Carson said visited by Michael in the past it would have prudent for them to be more carefull not all 4 barge in the bar and interogate the barman. This is not how a recon should be made. Or where did they think that Carson's lead will take them? In a planet of Atlantis worshipers? Guys, Sam was wrong, to blame Carson for that incident. Don't take everything for granted, many such lines are incorect. The corect interpretation: the lead which they willingly decided to follow, with information provided by Carson lead them in a little shootout. This should be a lesson for them do be more carefull when entering in enemy teritory. Both Michael and the Wraith have a vast network of worshipers, spies and humans doing their biding.

And in case you missed the point, the source of the coldness against Carson was not the fact that he was created by enemy, but because he was a clone. The prudence is ok, the prejudicies are not.

Yes ambush assumes premeditation. And in this case there was premeditation. Carson knew only one address of Michael's planets. Once he was rescued is was logical for Michael to expect them there, it wasn't Carson's fault, ne was just a pawn in the game. And Sam didn't blame him for anything, she just said that his information can't be trusted blindly. And I didn't see coldness towards Carson, just akwardnes, which is normal when you see your long dead friend.

elbo
March 3rd, 2008, 12:19 PM
You continue to belive that incident is something Michael planed. I don't agree with that.

- Michael had no knowledge that Carson glimpsed one of his planets addresses, which he was very carefull to conceal, and i state that based on the info we have from the show. Carson said something like: 'I GLIMPSED a address once from one of his soldiers'. Usually Michael transported Carson eye folded.

- Then there was just one man with limited ammo (not even a stunner for capture) against at least 4 that Atlantis could have sent. They could have actually sent more. This is not how an ambush look like, this is how a suicidal would look like and to sent somone who knows his safe-houses under the high risk of being captured, just to kill 1-2 atlanteeans is unrealistic.

I'm sorry but the ambush secnario don't fly. It was just a happy/unhappy depending on the view encouter, for which the team should have been preapared even to deal with more than this. Without this Carson intel, they would have been in a dead end.

Mitchell82
March 3rd, 2008, 04:34 PM
No. They would like to be uploaded into robot bodies or computers. A lot of them probably still want sex, though, even if it's only the virtual reality sort. If such a thing is possible and 99% of the population gets uploaded in the future, the ones who don't want to be copied would probably be regarded as freaks. :D

The philosophical questions regarding Beckett being real or not also apply to this concept of the future.

That would basically make the Matrix a reality and we know how dangerous VR is.

rarocks24
March 3rd, 2008, 07:40 PM
The weakest part of this whole episode, and there were oodles of weak parts, was Rodney's blind acceptance of Carson as Carson. That goes against all we know about Rodney and it made me wonder if tptb even cared about that, I think they just wanted to get this out of the way... have Carson back and have us as an audience just shrug off any of these little inconsistencies in characters.

I say little but really it is a huge fraking inconsistency for McKay. :cool:

I didn't think it was too big an inconsistency. Mckay has had to face the fact that he himself had a clone. Beyond that, Mckay had created a lifeform who at the beginning disregarded her as a lifeform and had only begun to regard her as such before she went off to destroy the Asurans.

It shows character development on the part of Mckay, and for me to say something positive about Mckay, means something.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
March 4th, 2008, 07:35 AM
I didn't think it was too big an inconsistency. Mckay has had to face the fact that he himself had a clone. Beyond that, Mckay had created a lifeform who at the beginning disregarded her as a lifeform and had only begun to regard her as such before she went off to destroy the Asurans.

It shows character development on the part of Mckay, and for me to say something positive about Mckay, means something.

That and/or a desire to believe that his best friend is back.