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MaglorAnarion
February 23rd, 2008, 11:44 AM
This was one of the only episodes that I really felt like the Atlantis expedition were the bad guys. Working with the Wraith against the Asurans was one thing but now it feels much more questionable.
Having those almighty 304's that even though in this episode were a little clumsy just makes us way too powerful.

I just wonder, is the 30% that would die from the Hoffan drug really more than those who would die at the hands of the Wraith if they could develop an antidote and resume their never ending cullings?
Of course it's kind of the end of the show if the Wraith are exterminated and I know no one wants that, but still.

I sympathized with Michael the entire episode, I knew there was some good in him, he could just have killed all the Athosians as revenge but as I suspected he wanted nothing more than to belong somewhere again and wanted Teyla to know what it was like to be seperated from ones people, both biologically and physically.

Also, I loved Michael and Kanaans new appearance, the Wraith has been done to death, the Humanized Wraith is in my opinion the perfect new race!

dasNdanger
February 23rd, 2008, 12:20 PM
The Lanteans have been the 'villains' from the beginning - ever since The Rising. You could call them flawed heroes...but they have caused more problems than they have solved.

1. They woke the Wraith. It was the Lanteans fault - and everything that has resulted since is on them. Waking the Wraith threw off the entire balance of the Pegasus Galaxy - a balance that had existed for thousands of years. They did the same thing the Ancients did, and made just as big of a mess.

2. Poisoning the Well - just because a being is not 100% human doesn't mean anyone has the right to use them as a guinea pig. Taking samples from Steve against his will, then using him as a test subject - is morally wrong on every level. IF it had been the Wraith doing the same thing to humans - just imagine the outcry! But because the roles were reversed, it somehow seemed okay (well, except for Kavanaugh - it's the one and only time I agreed with him). And so now, because of the Lanteans meddling, we now have humans being poisoned the galaxy over.

3. Michael. Oh dear god! Talk about the moral issues his case raises! The man was psychologically and biologically raped - and Teyla has the gaul to call him insane??! Of COURSE he is!! The Lanteans stripped him of his identity, of his mind, of his family...of his very self and being. I feel very sorry for him - he could have been someone like Todd, had they stopped after the first time they tampered with him - but no - they continued, and now he's become their Frankenstein's Monster. And I don't blame him at all (though I will not defend his determination to annihilate the Wraith - the Wraith acted instinctively to his alteration; the humans, on the other hand, are a much different story).

4. They have determined that it is okay for them to kill in order to survive, while condemning the Wraith for doing the exact same thing. The difference? The Wraith 'must feed to survive' - whereas the Lanteans can simply go back to where they came from, and let nature restore the balance they so horribly upset. Why don't they? Pride, and the determination to control another part of the galaxy, much like the Europeans did when conquering the world 300 years ago, without regard to the indigenous peoples or species that called those places home.

There are other instances, but when you look at the Lanteans through a mirror, you can really see how bad they have made things in the Pegasus Galaxy. And their solution? To kill off a species that - technically - are NOT responsible for where they are right now. The Lanteans, however, are totally responsible...and should have kept their fingers out of the pie a long time ago.



das

gopher65
February 23rd, 2008, 12:26 PM
I just wonder, is the 30% that would die from the Hoffan drug really more than those who would die at the hands of the Wraith if they could develop an antidote and resume their never ending cullings?
Of course it's kind of the end of the show if the Wraith are exterminated and I know no one wants that, but still.

Also I sympathized with Michael the entire episode, I knew there was some good in him, he could just have killed all the Athosians as revenge but as I suspected he wanted nothing more than to belong somewhere again and wanted Teyla to know what it was like to be seperated from ones people, both biologically and physically.
Few things:

They gave the Hoffan Drug research to Todd because they figured that he'd develop a bioweapon from it, and then use that bioweapon to completely eliminate all Wraith that weren't allied with him. The Wraith are a feudal society, so they have no allegiance to each other outside of their own little group. If Todd destroys all the other Wraith then his small group of them could conceivable feed forever without killing as large a percentage of the population as the Hoffan Drug would. Remember that this is a drug, and the effects most likely aren't passed on. Which means that you'd have to keep giving it to children as long as there were any Wraith around anywhere. If you stop giving it to people the Wraith could just hibernate for 100 years then come back and start the cycle all over again.

Second: Michael isn't good. His goal isn't to help humans eliminate the Wraith. His goal is to use humans as a weapon to eliminate the Wraith, then to brainwash and zombify all the humans in the galaxy to serve him. That doesn't sound like a good guy to me. It sounds like a monster far worse than the Wraith. At least the Wraith only kill people because they have no choice in the matter. Michael does it for his own glorification. The Wraith are just hungry, while he is evil.

Mitchell82
February 23rd, 2008, 12:44 PM
The Lanteans have been the 'villains' from the beginning - ever since The Rising. You could call them flawed heroes...but they have caused more problems than they have solved.

1. They woke the Wraith. It was the Lanteans fault - and everything that has resulted since is on them. Waking the Wraith threw off the entire balance of the Pegasus Galaxy - a balance that had existed for thousands of years. They did the same thing the Ancients did, and made just as big of a mess.
I don't see that as causing us to be the villain. Also what we did is far from what the Ancients did. We woke them from hibernation, the Ancients created the Wraith. Both circumstances were accidents however and I don't see that as making them the enemy. Flawed yes but not as much as you see them.


2. Poisoning the Well - just because a being is not 100% human doesn't mean anyone has the right to use them as a guinea pig. Taking samples from Steve against his will, then using him as a test subject - is morally wrong on every level. IF it had been the Wraith doing the same thing to humans - just imagine the outcry! But because the roles were reversed, it somehow seemed okay (well, except for Kavanaugh - it's the one and only time I agreed with him). And so now, because of the Lanteans meddling, we now have humans being poisoned the galaxy over.
Yes it is morally questionable however they did what they had to do. As a former military I can tell you that in situations like this you have to throw the rules and morals out the window in order to serve the greater good. The resulting effect on the Wraith was unforeseen and they tried to stop it then and there. What happened after was not our fault.


3. Michael. Oh dear god! Talk about the moral issues his case raises! The man was psychologically and biologically raped - and Teyla has the gaul to call him insane??! Of COURSE he is!! The Lanteans stripped him of his identity, of his mind, of his family...of his very self and being. I feel very sorry for him - he could have been someone like Todd, had they stopped after the first time they tampered with him - but no - they continued, and now he's become their Frankenstein's Monster. And I don't blame him at all (though I will not defend his determination to annihilate the Wraith - the Wraith acted instinctively to his alteration; the humans, on the other hand, are a much different story).
Again I will use the desperate measures argument. While I do understand Michaels frustration the attempt to reverse the mutation was a good idea in theory. Yes it turned out to be a huge mistake however I do not blame Atlantis for doing what they did in an effort to even the odds.


4. They have determined that it is okay for them to kill in order to survive, while condemning the Wraith for doing the exact same thing. The difference? The Wraith 'must feed to survive' - whereas the Lanteans can simply go back to where they came from, and let nature restore the balance they so horribly upset. Why don't they? Pride, and the determination to control another part of the galaxy, much like the Europeans did when conquering the world 300 years ago, without regard to the indigenous peoples or species that called those places home.
First that would effectively end the show. Second are you really trying to compare the situation on Atlantis to the British Inquisition? The situations don't even compare. Yes both the Wraith and us kill for a reason. However the Wraith are nothing more than a parasitic species. We also stay because we fight for the entire galaxy not just our own lives.


There are other instances, but when you look at the Lanteans through a mirror, you can really see how bad they have made things in the Pegasus Galaxy. And their solution? To kill off a species that - technically - are NOT responsible for where they are right now. The Lanteans, however, are totally responsible...and should have kept their fingers out of the pie a long time ago.



das

I disagree.

MaglorAnarion
February 23rd, 2008, 12:58 PM
3. Michael. Oh dear god! Talk about the moral issues his case raises! The man was psychologically and biologically raped - and Teyla has the gaul to call him insane??! Of COURSE he is!! The Lanteans stripped him of his identity, of his mind, of his family...of his very self and being. I feel very sorry for him - he could have been someone like Todd, had they stopped after the first time they tampered with him - but no - they continued, and now he's become their Frankenstein's Monster. And I don't blame him at all (though I will not defend his determination to annihilate the Wraith - the Wraith acted instinctively to his alteration; the humans, on the other hand, are a much different story).

4. They have determined that it is okay for them to kill in order to survive, while condemning the Wraith for doing the exact same thing. The difference? The Wraith 'must feed to survive' - whereas the Lanteans can simply go back to where they came from, and let nature restore the balance they so horribly upset. Why don't they? Pride, and the determination to control another part of the galaxy, much like the Europeans did when conquering the world 300 years ago, without regard to the indigenous peoples or species that called those places home.

There are other instances, but when you look at the Lanteans through a mirror, you can really see how bad they have made things in the Pegasus Galaxy. And their solution? To kill off a species that - technically - are NOT responsible for where they are right now. The Lanteans, however, are totally responsible...and should have kept their fingers out of the pie a long time ago.


I fully agree that what was done to Michael was horribly wrong, and that he has been able to keep any sanity at all is a miracle, I know I wouldn't.

But I do not however agree with you concerning the balance the "Lanteans" disturbed, they are human and as humans sympathise with other humans being culled by an agressive hive-based species, and they choose to work for their own species well-being.

That's life sometimes, you can philosophize all you want about choice and conciousness but even if another food source could be found and the Wraith could "turn vegetarian", I very much doubt that they would choose regular food over human life-force and immortality.

Michael has seen the perspective of both sides, the transformation of his very being by humans and questioning how their act could be one of compassion, then he returned to the Wraith only to find that his Wraith brethren saw him as an "unclean thing" and agressively rejected him.

Mitchell82
February 23rd, 2008, 01:00 PM
I fully agree that what was done to Michael was horribly wrong, and that he has been able to keep any sanity at all is a miracle, I know I wouldn't.

But I do not however agree with you concerning the balance the "Lanteans" disturbed, they are human and as humans sympathise with other humans being culled by an agressive hive-based species, and they choose to work for their own species well-being.

That's life sometimes, you can philosophize all you want about choice and conciousness but even if another food source could be found and the Wraith could "turn vegetarian", I very much doubt that they would choose regular food over human life-force and immortality.

Michael has seen the perspective of both sides, the transformation of his very being by humans and questioning how their act could be one of compassion, then he returned to the Wraith only to find that his Wraith brethren saw him as an "unclean thing" and agressively rejected him.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

MaglorAnarion
February 23rd, 2008, 01:10 PM
Few things:

They gave the Hoffan Drug research to Todd because they figured that he'd develop a bioweapon from it, and then use that bioweapon to completely eliminate all Wraith that weren't allied with him. The Wraith are a feudal society, so they have no allegiance to each other outside of their own little group. If Todd destroys all the other Wraith then his small group of them could conceivable feed forever without killing as large a percentage of the population as the Hoffan Drug would. Remember that this is a drug, and the effects most likely aren't passed on. Which means that you'd have to keep giving it to children as long as there were any Wraith around anywhere. If you stop giving it to people the Wraith could just hibernate for 100 years then come back and start the cycle all over again.

Second: Michael isn't good. His goal isn't to help humans eliminate the Wraith. His goal is to use humans as a weapon to eliminate the Wraith, then to brainwash and zombify all the humans in the galaxy to serve him. That doesn't sound like a good guy to me. It sounds like a monster far worse than the Wraith. At least the Wraith only kill people because they have no choice in the matter. Michael does it for his own glorification. The Wraith are just hungry, while he is evil.
Do you seriously think Todd is that selfish and disloyal to the other Wraith?
Even if they are a hive-based species they have shown that they are willing to unite against common enemies and issues that concern them all.
I believe that he is be smart enough to realize that it would be a great victory for Earth and the Pegasus humans for that matter if the Wraith took their civil war to the next level, also I don't think he considers all other Wraith hives out there his enemy, he would only use the protein-weapon against a handful of feeding grounds for a few Hives, not the entire Wraith race.

Still, I see your point and that there could be some wisdom in Sheppards act, but I still think it's too risky.

dasNdanger
February 23rd, 2008, 04:59 PM
I don't see that as causing us to be the villain. Also what we did is far from what the Ancients did. We woke them from hibernation, the Ancients created the Wraith. Both circumstances were accidents however and I don't see that as making them the enemy. Flawed yes but not as much as you see them.

Well, I did say 'villain' - by putting it in those little quotey things, I was using the term loosely, and not not so much literally. ;)

But still, the mess in the PG is due to the Lanteans. They stirred a species that was not ready to wake, and their solution (for the most part) is to destroy that species. They have no right to do that - even the Wraith do not have their heart set on the total annihilation of all humans, so what gives the humans the right to totally annihilate the Wraith? So...yeah, we can argue this round and round, but I will still see the problem as one created by the Lanteans, and compounded by their further actions.


Yes it is morally questionable however they did what they had to do. As a former military I can tell you that in situations like this you have to throw the rules and morals out the window in order to serve the greater good. The resulting effect on the Wraith was unforeseen and they tried to stop it then and there. What happened after was not our fault.

The Lanteans invaded their turf - not the other way around. They disturbed the balance, and each time they try to fix it, they make it worse - for both Wraith, and human.

As far as the greater good - you are only looking at it from a human standpoint. The Wraith are living, breathing intelligent beings - have they no rights simply based on the fact that they are a different race? Is there not a 'greater good' for them, too?


Again I will use the desperate measures argument. While I do understand Michaels frustration the attempt to reverse the mutation was a good idea in theory. Yes it turned out to be a huge mistake however I do not blame Atlantis for doing what they did in an effort to even the odds.

Totally blame them...they tampered with someone's body against his will.

Turn it around - what would you do if suddenly the government took you captive, and...let's say...removed your reproductive organs - 'for the greater good' - because they determined - for you - that you should not be allowed to have offspring. Now - would your anger be justified? If you went psycho because of it - would not the government be to blame? I think so - just as I think the Lanteans are totally to blame for creating their very own Frankenstein's Monster.

They violated both Michael's mind and body - against his will, against his wishes. They determined it was better for him to be human than to be Wraith. They passed a judgment that humans deserve life more than Wraith. Guh - I really hate the whole 'let's play God' thing that happens in Sci Fi - and this is a perfect example of that. What they did to Michael is like forcing a person to change the color of his skin so that he'd be more acceptable. We are not talking about an animal here - the Wraith are intelligent beings who have a right to determine what they want to be...the right to choose for themselves.

Yeah - the whole Michael episode really angered me...to think that someone could just decide for me what I should be, even if I don't want to be that thing. Almost like forcing your religion on someone...and nobody likes that.


First that would effectively end the show. Second are you really trying to compare the situation on Atlantis to the British Inquisition? The situations don't even compare. Yes both the Wraith and us kill for a reason. However the Wraith are nothing more than a parasitic species. We also stay because we fight for the entire galaxy not just our own lives.

Of course it is the same. Exploration is exploration - whether at sea, or in space. These are explorers, and their actions are having affects on the societies they come in contact with. Already the Lantean interference has lead to the near-extinction of Teyla's people (or maybe the complete extinction) by Shep activating that beacon in The Rising. Seems to have led to the destruction of the Hoffans, too...because if they hadn't helped with that experiment, none of what happened afterwards would have occurred - at least, not quite as fast - if ever. There are other civilizations that have been damaged - some permanently - simply due to the Lanteans exploration. It is VERY much like what happened when European explorers conquered the world - just ask the indigenous peoples of the islands, the Americas, Australia...and so many other places where cultures and lands where destroyed in the name of 'king and country'. No different than what the Lanteans are doing, except they are doing it in the name of science.


I disagree.

No problem. You have every right to have your own opinions, as do I. :)


But I do not however agree with you concerning the balance the "Lanteans" disturbed, they are human and as humans sympathise with other humans being culled by an agressive hive-based species, and they choose to work for their own species well-being.

That's life sometimes, you can philosophize all you want about choice and conciousness but even if another food source could be found and the Wraith could "turn vegetarian", I very much doubt that they would choose regular food over human life-force and immortality.


But that's only looking at it from one side. Now - if the Wraith were not intelligent creatures, the situation may be different. But they ARE intelligent beings, and part human, so therefore it changes things a bit. Just because they are not 'us' doesn't mean they have no rights. It also means that the whole 'greater good' thing must be looked at from both sides, and not just the human one. Everything the Lanteans have done - with only a few, small exceptions - has resulted in disaster, not just for the Wraith, but for humans as well. The Lanteans need to take a step back, and rethink their attitude towards the world they have invaded. This is NOT earth - it's NOT their home. They have invaded another galaxy, forced their will and morals on other species - and yes, in doing so they have disturbed the balance.

For instance, the planet in Condemned. Right or wrong, they had a system that was working for them. By the Lanteans interferring with that system (as unjust as it was), it now created a situation where not just SOME of the population would be culled, but most likely the ENTIRE population would be consumed. The Lanteans passed a death sentence on that entire planet/city. The Lanteans are - directly or indirectly - responsible for what happened at the end of that episode. And why? Because they determined that the system was WRONG. They forced their moral judgment on the inhabitants of that city, and that judgment effectively - and most likely - killed every human inhabitant there.

I am NOT saying the people in Condemned were right - BUT, they had a system that worked for them, and worked for hundreds of years. It would have continued to work as long as the Wraith continued to sleep...but lo and behold, they woke up. So...again, the Lanteans are indirectly responsible for the deaths of those humans.

Every action has its consequences, and by now the Lanteans should be well aware that their actions have created more problems than they've solved, and hurt so many people in the process. Before the humans of the PG only had to fear the Wraith - now they have to fear the Wraith, the Lanteans, Michael, and whoever else rises up because of the void left as the Wraith numbers continue to decline.

So, yes - the Lanteans have made a mess, and continue to blame the Wraith for situations they themselves have created. Remember what Michael said to Teyla once - that he would have fed on her - "it wasn't a choice. It was INSTINCT." THAT'S the difference - the humans have a choice - they can stop meddling, they can leave. For the Wraith, it's much different - they act on instinct - the need to feed to survive. They have no choice in the matter unless an alternative food source is found. So, in this regard alone, the humans bear more of the responsibility because their actions are based on the choices they make, while the Wraith are driven by an instinct to survive.

das

Blistna
February 23rd, 2008, 09:43 PM
The Lanteans have been the 'villains' from the beginning - ever since The Rising. You could call them flawed heroes...but they have caused more problems than they have solved.
das


All I am going to say is that we are human....we make mistakes. But to say we are worse or even compared to the Wraith is like comparing America with Hilter....the Wraith do eat to survive, true, but even if they had another choice...they still would kill humans! They see us as the lower, stupid race that should worship them.

But yes...we are flawed. And thats good, and in some ways, it makes Atlantis a better story the sg-1...because we mess up more then do good.

Sparrow_hawk
February 23rd, 2008, 10:28 PM
The Lanteans invaded their turf - not the other way around. They disturbed the balance, and each time they try to fix it, they make it worse - for both Wraith, and human.

As far as the greater good - you are only looking at it from a human standpoint. The Wraith are living, breathing intelligent beings - have they no rights simply based on the fact that they are a different race? Is there not a 'greater good' for them, too?

They violated both Michael's mind and body - against his will, against his wishes. They determined it was better for him to be human than to be Wraith. They passed a judgment that humans deserve life more than Wraith. Guh - I really hate the whole 'let's play God' thing that happens in Sci Fi - and this is a perfect example of that. What they did to Michael is like forcing a person to change the color of his skin so that he'd be more acceptable. We are not talking about an animal here - the Wraith are intelligent beings who have a right to determine what they want to be...the right to choose for themselves.

The Lanteans need to take a step back, and rethink their attitude towards the world they have invaded. This is NOT earth - it's NOT their home. They have invaded another galaxy, forced their will and morals on other species - and yes, in doing so they have disturbed the balance.

das
das,

I agree with you. You stated your arguments beautifully. Just as there must be room for multiple cultures to co-exist on Earth, there must be room for multiple species to co-exist in the Universe.

Personally, I would love to see SGA explore how co-existance of the two races might eventually be achieved as part of their plot line.

dasNdanger
February 24th, 2008, 12:19 AM
All I am going to say is that we are human....we make mistakes. But to say we are worse or even compared to the Wraith is like comparing America with Hilter....the Wraith do eat to survive, true, but even if they had another choice...they still would kill humans!

But we really don't know that since they've never been given a choice. I would suspect that most Wraith would prefer humans, but if they could survive on both human AND normal food...well...that would give at least some a chance to make a choice. Right now, they act upon instinct (as Michael told Teyla in...Misbegotten, I believe)...it would be interesting to see if instinct could be replaced by choice.


But yes...we are flawed. And thats good, and in some ways, it makes Atlantis a better story the sg-1...because we mess up more then do good.

Oh, I agree here. I hate perfect heroes - that's why I read Marvel comics with their flawed heroes, and not DC. It just seems that a lot of people don't quite see how much of a dog's breakfast the Lanteans have made of things.

If you get a chance, there is an EXCELLENT comment on JM's blog today (well...2/23) - the person brings up points that are much like the ones made here - about the Lanteans answering for the mistakes they've made, and how things (esp. where the Wraith are concerned) have come back to bite them in the butt. Just very good comments, and it was nice to hear someone else on the same page as me - I thought I was the only one.


das,

I agree with you. You stated your arguments beautifully. Just as there must be room for multiple cultures to co-exist on Earth, there must be room for multiple species to co-exist in the Universe.

Personally, I would love to see SGA explore how co-existance of the two races might eventually be achieved as part of their plot line.

Yup. I think it could be done - though I want the Wraith to remain Wraith, and not be turned into something else. Even finding an alternative food source doesn't have to mean they lose their desire to feed on humans - it just means they have to learn to control their instincts. That in of itself could be a very beautiful thing...a Wraith fighting his most basic of instincts because he sees the benefits of living in harmony with humans.

I said - somewhere - that it would be a delight to see a Wraith as a teammate - a Wraith who has the abilitity to gain nourishment from normal food, but who still has the instinct to feed. Imagine a moment where he is sparring with Teyla in the gym (guh - the visual of Steve fighting Teyla by the ruins comes to mind) - and suddenly he stops, looks at Teyla in the most peculiar of ways, and storms out of the room. Teyla immediately assumes he's attracted to her, much like John was when he was turning into a bug. She is both creeped out by this, and somehow strangely flattered. But she MUST set the record straight...so she confronts the Wraith, and says...

Teyla: "I am sorry, but a relationship between us is just not possible."

Wraith (confused look on his face): "I do not understand. Of what do you speak."

Teyla: "Yesterday. In the gym. I saw the way you looked at me, and..."

Wraith (interrupting): "You are mistaken."

Teyla: "You do not have to be embarrassed. Even though we are different species, our feelings..."

Wraith (snarling): "I said, YOU are mistaken. The combat - like the hunt - simply stimulated my desire to feed. That is all. Any other 'feeling' was non-existent. I decided it would be in both our interests to take my leave, and find something more - acceptable - to feed upon."

Teyla (embarrassed): "Oh. I am sorry." (long pause) "If I may ask, what did you find to 'feed upon'?"

Wraith (with a sly smile): "Kavanaugh."

:D

Okay - that's just my dream scenario - sorry, it's 3 am and I SO should be in bed!

das

MattSilver 3k
February 24th, 2008, 02:01 AM
I think a Micheal-ifed (Wraith strengths, but no feeding) Todd would make an excellent member of the team. He, Zelenka and McKay would be the three stooges.

Atlantis isn't techinically the bad guys - they're just morally fracked.

ckwongau
February 24th, 2008, 03:15 AM
I remember in S2 episode "Michael" when the speech Teyla gave Michael when he held her hostage after discover what they did to him.


TEYLA: I would like to be your friend. I would.

MICHAEL: You expect me to believe that?

TEYLA: You may not understand this now but making you human ... I believe this could make your life better.

MICHAEL (sarcastically): Really? Because from what I was told, you made me human in order to make your lives better.

(Teyla stares at him, unable to argue against that.)

MICHAEL: So tell me then: what makes being human better than being a Wraith?

TEYLA: They are evil. They kill us, feed on us, show no mercy, know nothing of compassion ...

MICHAEL: And humans are different?

TEYLA: Yes.


I feel sorry for Teyla 's current situation ,but after that self rightous speech she gave Michael, whatever genetic experiment Michael did or will do to her people and family, it has came full circle,and she can't claim any moral superiority and i hope after this she will lean her lesson.
and she will see true evil from the new wraith species , the evil of humanity .
Wraith mainly kill for food, the new Wraith kill for something else
And i think Teyla hate herself because she has Wraith gene,she is a self hating hybrid.

dasNdanger
February 24th, 2008, 05:48 AM
I think a Micheal-ifed (Wraith strengths, but no feeding) Todd would make an excellent member of the team. He, Zelenka and McKay would be the three stooges.

Hee! Would love to see those three together! But...don't want a Michael-fied Todd - mainly because the whole 'feeding on humans' thing is what gives him his edge. Take that ability or desire away, and he's just some big Goth dude with freaky hair and yellow eyes. Give him an alternative food source - yes - but keep the desire and ability to feed there also.


Atlantis isn't techinically the bad guys - they're just morally fracked.

Agreed.


I remember in S2 episode "Michael" when the speech Teyla gave Michael when he held her hostage after discover what they did to him.



I feel sorry for Teyla 's current situation ,but after that self rightous speech she gave Michael, whatever genetic experiment Michael did or will do to her people and family, it has came full circle,and she can't claim any moral superiority and i hope after this she will lean her lesson.
and she will see true evil from the new wraith species , the evil of humanity .
Wraith mainly kill for food, the new Wraith kill for something else
And i think Teyla hate herself because she has Wraith gene,she is a self hating hybrid.

That speech was horrible. The Wraith are not evil - and soon she will see the difference.

I hope whatever Michael has done actually casts the normal Wraith in a better light - help the humans see the difference between killing for food, and killing for spite and power.

Also, with this new developemnt, and with the Wraith finally seeing their vulnerability, I hope it inspires the normal Wraith to find an alternative to humans - but NOT a replacement (as in the case of Michael). To be able to gain nourishment from something else, while still having the ablility and desire to feed on humans - but suppressing it - would be the best case scenario. It would give the Wraith the ability to co-exist with humans, while not taking away the threat they present, or altering their nature, appearance, or desires. It would simply force them to control their instincts if they want to live in peace with humans, and preserve what is left of their species.

das

ciannwn
February 24th, 2008, 06:10 AM
The expedition leaders are guilty of the same kind of arrogance that we've been told was the Lanteans' downfall.

In 'Trinity' Rodney thinks he can make a failed piece of Ancient technology work when it's creator's were unable to do it. In 'Progeny' Weir learns the history of the Asurans from Niam. There is one very telling line -

Niam: ... When the Ancients concluded that the experiment had gone too far -- that we would never become the weapon they desired to create -- they decided to end it.

In 'Lifeline' Weir was present when Rodney discovered that the Asuran attack code had been deactivated.

WEIR: And how did that happen?

McKAY: Well, I have no idea. Maybe the Ancients did it when they realised they couldn’t control them.

Weir then asks Rodney if he can reactivate this command code. After the disaster on Doranda you'd think that these people would think twice about trying to use the Asurans as weapons against the Wraith. Instead they just assume that they can succeed where the Ancients failed and caused the deaths of thousands of Pegasus humans as a result.

Sparrow_hawk
February 24th, 2008, 07:06 AM
I said - somewhere - that it would be a delight to see a Wraith as a teammate - a Wraith who has the abilitity to gain nourishment from normal food, but who still has the instinct to feed. Imagine a moment where he is sparring with Teyla in the gym (guh - the visual of Steve fighting Teyla by the ruins comes to mind) - and suddenly he stops, looks at Teyla in the most peculiar of ways, and storms out of the room. Teyla immediately assumes he's attracted to her, much like John was when he was turning into a bug. She is both creeped out by this, and somehow strangely flattered. But she MUST set the record straight...so she confronts the Wraith, and says...

Teyla: "I am sorry, but a relationship between us is just not possible."

Wraith (confused look on his face): "I do not understand. Of what do you speak."

Teyla: "Yesterday. In the gym. I saw the way you looked at me, and..."

Wraith (interrupting): "You are mistaken."

Teyla: "You do not have to be embarrassed. Even though we are different species, our feelings..."

Wraith (snarling): "I said, YOU are mistaken. The combat - like the hunt - simply stimulated my desire to feed. That is all. Any other 'feeling' was non-existent. I decided it would be in both our interests to take my leave, and find something more - acceptable - to feed upon."

Teyla (embarrassed): "Oh. I am sorry." (long pause) "If I may ask, what did you find to 'feed upon'?"

Wraith (with a sly smile): "Kavanaugh."

:D

das

That scene is perfect! I can just imagine it happening -- where DO you get your ideas?!

kymeric
February 24th, 2008, 09:41 AM
What is it with this forum and talking about rape, yeesh.

But i kinda like the idea of killing the wraith all off. Whos to say that would end the show, theres still infinite number of stories to tell on atlantis and in pegasus without the wraith.

I like it when writers type a list of things that everyone says you cant do, and then does em well.

RepliVeggie
February 24th, 2008, 11:55 AM
How can you say the Ancients created the Wraith? And blame them for the Wraith problem? It is not there fault some human worlds were inhabited by the Iratus bug and the people there were turned into Wraith. It wasn't a Ancient experiment or something.

Heaven
February 24th, 2008, 12:43 PM
these new hybrids are such a wasted opportunity
I think they would have been far more interesting as an ally race
like the Tokra of the Pegasus galaxy
there may have been several species variations that evolved from the Iratus bugs

ciannwn
February 24th, 2008, 03:16 PM
How can you say the Ancients created the Wraith? And blame them for the Wraith problem? It is not there fault some human worlds were inhabited by the Iratus bug and the people there were turned into Wraith. It wasn't a Ancient experiment or something.

From 'The Return Part 1' -

WOOLSEY (to Helia): And by your own admission, you are responsible for the emergence of the Wraith as a species.

We don't know the details because we were only shown the last few minutes of the conference. The only other Lantean information we have comes from 'Rising Part 1' -

HOLOGRAM: ... In time, a thousand worlds bore the fruit of life in this form. Then one day our people stepped foot upon a dark world where a terrible enemy slept. Never before had we encountered beings with powers that rivalled our own.

Not realising the Iratus bugs were on a particular planet is one thing. Missing the emergence of the Wraith until they were powerful enough to rival the Lanteans is another.

garhkal
February 24th, 2008, 04:16 PM
Atlantis isn't techinically the bad guys - they're just morally fracked.

That is a polite way to put it..


I hope whatever Michael has done actually casts the normal Wraith in a better light - help the humans see the difference between killing for food, and killing for spite and power.

Same here. heck i hope it makes the entire atlantis group re-evaluate how they do business.


The expedition leaders are guilty of the same kind of arrogance that we've been told was the Lanteans' downfall.

Very true. WE are getting to be as bad as them.