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View Full Version : We had to destroy their entire civilization for making a bioweapon!



Ouroboros
February 23rd, 2008, 03:26 AM
The actual bioweapon research though.... nah I guess we don't need to destroy that.

Are you ****ing kidding me?

melfan
February 23rd, 2008, 03:39 AM
The actual bioweapon research though.... nah I guess we don't need to destroy that.

Are you ****ing kidding me?

:lol:

peragrin
February 23rd, 2008, 04:39 AM
what do you mean? our copy of the data, or the Hoffman's copy that they insisted on giving to every single one of their people even with 50% causality rates.

Keeping our research notes makes sense as long as no samples are kept. It gives you something to work from later in case you ever see it again.

That's why you have a giant database of that kind of information to begin with.

The_Carpenter
February 23rd, 2008, 05:04 AM
The actual bioweapon research though.... nah I guess we don't need to destroy that.

Are you ****ing kidding me?

Assuming that other people knew about the research and had the scientific know how to recreate the experiments and that said people also had the will to kill 50% of their population.

Seeing as how most of the residents of the Pegasus galaxy live in tents and wooden shacks there's little chance of that, plus the Atlantis expedition would never use the bioweapon as quite rightly so 50% fatality rate is unacceptable and the Wraith now we feel that way.

jds1982
February 23rd, 2008, 06:16 AM
You know for having their civilization wiped out, the city looked suprisingly intact. I would have thought the Wraith would have leveled everything only stopping short of annihilating all life on that world, instead it looks like a half-assed bombing attempt. Sort of a shock and meh campaign.

dasNdanger
February 23rd, 2008, 07:18 AM
The information on the bioweapon was gone. The Wraith obviously took it when they wiped out the infected Hoffans for their own research, and it's likely that Michael was able to get his hands on it sometime later. He's been a very busy Wraithman, methinks.


das

MerryK
February 23rd, 2008, 10:40 AM
The actual bioweapon research though.... nah I guess we don't need to destroy that.

Are you ****ing kidding me?

Didn't we just leave the Wraith to destroy it? In other words, we let them destroy themselves, and assumed that the Wraith would get rid of something that was bad for them. Unless you're talking about something other than the Hoffans.

gopher65
February 23rd, 2008, 12:03 PM
Didn't we just leave the Wraith to destroy it? In other words, we let them destroy themselves, and assumed that the Wraith would get rid of something that was bad for them. Unless you're talking about something other than the Hoffans.
The OP was speaking from the Wraith point of view. "We had to destroy their entire civilization for making a bioweapon! The actual bioweapon research though.... nah I guess we don't need to destroy that."

(S)He's saying that the Wraith were silly for not destroying the research.

However, I think the since the whole point of the Hoffan society was to build a number of separate hidden bunkers which contained the whole of their Knowledge the Wraith would have had a hard time of it.

Jeffala
February 23rd, 2008, 12:06 PM
Sort of a shock and meh campaign.

Brilliant!

Mitchell82
February 23rd, 2008, 12:14 PM
The OP was speaking from the Wraith point of view. "We had to destroy their entire civilization for making a bioweapon! The actual bioweapon research though.... nah I guess we don't need to destroy that."

(S)He's saying that the Wraith were silly for not destroying the research.

However, I think the since the whole point of the Hoffan society was to build a number of separate hidden bunkers which contained the whole of their Knowledge the Wraith would have had a hard time of it.
They probably didn't know where to look for the actually research notes.

gopher65
February 23rd, 2008, 12:19 PM
They probably didn't know where to look for the actually research notes.
That's what orbital bombardments are for:D.

Mitchell82
February 23rd, 2008, 12:23 PM
That's what orbital bombardments are for:D.

:lol:

garhkal
February 23rd, 2008, 04:20 PM
The information on the bioweapon was gone. The Wraith obviously took it when they wiped out the infected Hoffans for their own research, and it's likely that Michael was able to get his hands on it sometime later. He's been a very busy Wraithman, methinks.


das

They could have taken it, so they could research a work around...

jenks
February 23rd, 2008, 05:13 PM
The actual bioweapon research though.... nah I guess we don't need to destroy that.

Are you ****ing kidding me?

Err wasn't it supposed to have been hidden away in vaults that had survived numerous other Wraith cullings? The only reason Michael found it was because of Beckett...

Aurora24
February 23rd, 2008, 07:49 PM
Even if the Wraith did completely wipe out that information there are still two possible alternatives to how Michael could have come across that information. First he could have been part of the Hive that destroyed that civilization back when he was still full Wraith (we don't know anything about his past prior to be getting captured by our guys) or second, he could have gotten the information about the drug when he was probing Beckett's mind. And then he somehow got the Beckett we saw last night to change it along with developing a new retro-virus.

Apparently knowledge of the original drug is common among the Wraith because Todd knew about it.

Ouroboros
February 24th, 2008, 12:45 AM
The OP was speaking from the Wraith point of view. "We had to destroy their entire civilization for making a bioweapon! The actual bioweapon research though.... nah I guess we don't need to destroy that."

(S)He's saying that the Wraith were silly for not destroying the research.

However, I think the since the whole point of the Hoffan society was to build a number of separate hidden bunkers which contained the whole of their Knowledge the Wraith would have had a hard time of it.

This person has it right. Well aside from the bunkers thing anyway. When SGA gets there they just go looking for the super secret research in a completely normal above ground building.

It's completely idiotic that so much of this episode was centered around trying to find this stupid research when it was known by all that the Wraith had destroyed the planet because of the research. Obviously if they destroyed the whole civilization they did so to prevent any trace of the poison from spreading to any other world they fed from. That and to punish the Hoffans for doing this and make them an example to others. It's absolutely idiotic to think that they would go to all the trouble of wiping out an entire civilzation but also just happen to forget about the whole reason why they're even doing it in the first place.

Despite that fact though everybody in this episode seems to think it's really likely that they're going to find that research on the planet there. Like the Wraith are just going to leave it there for anyone to find once they're done exterminating an entire society just for creating it.

To make it even worse though it's strongly implied that Michael did get his headstart on the virus from the Hoffen research, which is why it was already missing when they got there. I mean it certainly wasn't missing because the entire laboratory responsible for creating it was blasted into a glassed out crater from orbit like it should have been once its location was tortured or mind probed out of the government officials. What are we supposed to think the Wraith did instead if they really did destroy it, sent a single guy down there to search through all the books in the city 1 by 1 until he finds the right one and burns only that, making sure he didn't miss anything? Because you know that's a lot easier and less likely to go wrong than the 1 to 3 seconds it takes to just remove the entire city from existence with orbital blue goo of doom.

Wow, like I said, are you kidding me?

YutheGreat
February 24th, 2008, 06:29 AM
The Wraith destroyed them not us. As to how Michael got his hands on it.

The Hoffman's had numerous storage sites for their knowledge. To make sure the Wraith couldn't destroy them all.

Michael could have also harvested the knowledge from Carson Becket since he obviously has the knowledge of it.

Gibsnag
February 24th, 2008, 08:42 AM
Sort of a shock and meh campaign.

Hahaha. Thats excellent.

PG15
February 24th, 2008, 07:54 PM
I don't see a problem here. The Wraith had no inkling of the bunkers' existence, so why would they be suspicious enough to mindprobe people when, to them, the data was probably wiped out along with the rest of the civilization from their attack?

Pudding
February 24th, 2008, 08:00 PM
I don't see a problem here. The Wraith had no inkling of the bunkers' existence, so why would they be suspicious enough to mindprobe people when, to them, the data was probably wiped out along with the rest of the civilization from their attack?

IMO, they should have been smart enough to realize that the Hoffans couldn't have possibly worked this whole thing out in the time between the last culling and now. Something had to give, some way of passing information onto the next generation after cullings. And anyway, it's not like the Hoffans would just leave their important information somewhere where it would be easy to destroy - any smart person would take all precations possible to protect it.

PG15
February 24th, 2008, 08:08 PM
Well, there is such a thing as going overboard. :p

Perhaps they thought that, by destroying the civilization entirely, there won't be anyone left to carry on that "legacy"? Besides, they were also busy at the time with the civil war (although this could depend on just when the Hoffans were destroyed, obvously).

Pudding
February 24th, 2008, 08:19 PM
Perhaps they thought that, by destroying the civilization entirely, there won't be anyone left to carry on that "legacy"? Besides, they were also busy at the time with the civil war (although this could depend on just when the Hoffans were destroyed, obvously).

True. And I suppose, since they never saw this 'bioweapon' on any other world besides Hoff, they thought nobody else knew about it and therefore nobody would go looking for it.

Mister Oragahn
February 25th, 2008, 06:48 AM
People, Stargate is supposed to be fun. Stop thinking, or go watch wrestling.

gopher65
February 25th, 2008, 07:14 AM
People, Stargate is supposed to be fun. Stop thinking, or go watch wrestling.

On something Tolkien said, from Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Fairy-Stories) "...he (Tolkien) emphasizes that through the use of fantasy, which he equates with fancy and imagination, the author can bring the reader to experience a world which is consistent and rational, yet utterly strange as well."

In the same essay Tolkien said that a world has to be internally consistent, or else the reader will get jolted out of the fantasy. The same holds true for all other stories, but especially for science fiction, which, like fantasy, has to create its own little self-contained world. If the reader (watcher) gets jolted out of the story, then they can't fully enjoy it. THAT is why people post about these things. It isn't just a tiny nitpick; these kinks in the flow of the story cost viewers.

In the world of words this has been understood for a long time. Yet for some reason people who write television and movies are too out of it to pick up on this simple truth.

SpinningChevron
February 28th, 2008, 02:05 AM
I actually find it quite odd that the Hoffans thought that making the cure was going to be worth while in the first place, without any real weapons or ships to defend their planet, they must have known that the Wraith once they discover that they can't feed on the Hoffans anymore are going to bombard the planet from orbit.

Ouroboros
February 28th, 2008, 08:41 AM
I actually find it quite odd that the Hoffans thought that making the cure was going to be worth while in the first place, without any real weapons or ships to defend their planet, they must have known that the Wraith once they discover that they can't feed on the Hoffans anymore are going to bombard the planet from orbit.

Yes you would think that wouldn't you, but I don't even recall the team bringing this up when trying to talk them out of it.

"We're willing to let 50% of our population die for this cause!"

"Well.... how do you feel about 100%?"

What they did got them deader than if they'd all just lined up and and thrown themselves at the first Wraith who wanted to feed on them.

What was the message of this story anyway? "See this is what happens when you're a tiny little nobody acting recklessly belligerent toward a gigantic alien empire known for violence without thinking through the consequences. Even the sternest devotion and the most unwavering effort and commitment to a "good" cause can't change the cold hard mathematics of reality. Unless you're from Earth... then by all means belligerate away... with 3 alien empires at once! We'll protect you, we don't care how stupid it looks! "

Well it was almost a good humbling and honest message about the dangers of blind fanaticism, even if for a good cause.

AutumnDream
February 28th, 2008, 02:32 PM
Another fine job by the Stargate writing staff.

Mitchell82
February 28th, 2008, 09:19 PM
I actually find it quite odd that the Hoffans thought that making the cure was going to be worth while in the first place, without any real weapons or ships to defend their planet, they must have known that the Wraith once they discover that they can't feed on the Hoffans anymore are going to bombard the planet from orbit.

Arrogance plain and simple. They thought they found the "Holy Grail" to defend their planet and no matter what we told them they werent going to back down.

jds1982
February 29th, 2008, 08:00 AM
Yes you would think that wouldn't you, but I don't even recall the team bringing this up when trying to talk them out of it.


I actually thought they did, but there's a strong chance I might be misremembering that.

PG15
February 29th, 2008, 01:10 PM
They most certainly did:


CHANCELLOR’S OFFICE. Druhin is talking with John and Teyla.
DRUHIN: I fail to see cause for alarm, Major. If anything, this development dramatically increases the value of the serum.
SHEPPARD: No – it just takes away any doubt about what the Wraith’ll do when they eventually come here.
DRUHIN: I fail to see the difference.
TEYLA: Once they learn you possess a weapon such as this, the Wraith will wipe your people from existence in retaliation for the Wraith deaths.
DRUHIN: Or they may simply leave us alone once they learn we are ... unpalatable.
SHEPPARD (sarcastically): Cos they’re such an easy-going live-and-let-live kind of race. (Seriously) Y’know, maybe there was half a chance of that when you were talking about this being defensive, but now ...
DRUHIN: You fail to see the larger picture, Major. For the first time we have a way to not just defend ourselves but to strike back.
SHEPPARD: Is this about revenge, or saving your people?
DRUHIN: You can’t hope to understand the generations of suffering ...
SHEPPARD (interrupting): I’ve been in one of their hives and I’ve fought against their ships and, trust me, when the first Wraith dies because of this drug, they’re not gonna simply move on. They’re gonna make their problem go away.
TEYLA: Once your world has been destroyed, they will seek out any who have had contact with you. They will spare no-one.
SHEPPARD: Listen, I know how passionate you are about this – this drug is sort of your Holy Grail, but you’re gonna have to shelve it til we get a better idea ...
DRUHIN (interrupting): No, no.
SHEPPARD: I’m serious – otherwise we can’t help you any more.
DRUHIN: You don’t understand, Major, it’s too late. I have made my recommendation to the Council and they’ve agreed. We have already begun inoculating our people.

Yikes Ouroboros; I thought you usually checked your facts. ;) :p

Ouroboros
February 29th, 2008, 10:24 PM
They most certainly did:



Yikes Ouroboros; I thought you usually checked your facts. ;) :p

Ahh ok seems they did mention it, little to late by the sounds of it though. Gotta love how that worked out.

"How are we going to make these guys seriously too stupid to know that the Wraith are going to bomb them into oblivion for even trying this"

"I know, we'll only let anyone bring it up when it's already "too late" to stop the plan from being enacted, you know as oppossed to like... within the first ten seconds of even thinking up the idea to make this stuff.... you know like would really happen.... with real people planning this."

"Brilliant, when can you have this script ready."

"I'll phone it in tomorrow!"

:D

garhkal
March 3rd, 2008, 05:03 PM
Arrogance plain and simple. They thought they found the "Holy Grail" to defend their planet and no matter what we told them they werent going to back down.

Which like with nearly every other 'arogant race' proved to be their downfall..

Jeffala
March 3rd, 2008, 06:00 PM
Which like with nearly every other 'arogant race' proved to be their downfall..

"...and those who are prideful and refuse to bow down shall be laid low and made unto dust."

Ouroboros
March 4th, 2008, 11:11 AM
Which like with nearly every other 'arogant race' proved to be their downfall..

I wonder when Earth will get theirs.

garhkal
March 4th, 2008, 04:30 PM
"...and those who are prideful and refuse to bow down shall be laid low and made unto dust."

An apt quote if there ever was one.

jds1982
March 5th, 2008, 08:48 AM
Ahh ok seems they did mention it, little to late by the sounds of it though. Gotta love how that worked out.

"How are we going to make these guys seriously too stupid to know that the Wraith are going to bomb them into oblivion for even trying this"

"I know, we'll only let anyone bring it up when it's already "too late" to stop the plan from being enacted, you know as oppossed to like... within the first ten seconds of even thinking up the idea to make this stuff.... you know like would really happen.... with real people planning this."

"Brilliant, when can you have this script ready."

"I'll phone it in tomorrow!"

:D

Well I think before that the AE was just too excited about having a potential defense against feeding for their own people. I also don't think they really cared that it killed Wraith, just that it killed people. Because it killed people the AE wasn't going to help mass produce it and spread it to other planets. Without widespread use of the drug the Wraith wouldn't be affected greatly and the Hoffan's demise was assured. If the drug hadn't killed people, the AE probably would have distributed it galaxy wide, which would have really hurt the Wraith. Sure they might burn a few planets (although burn is most likely too strong a word, maybe knock around a bit), but in the end they're starving to death with only the stores of food they have left on ships, or planets with no stargates.