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Tupopoflungo
February 19th, 2008, 10:50 PM
I have been reading posts about why they don't have Irises on the Midway Station. Am I the only one who understands that the McKay/Carter Intergalactic Gatebridge does not create one giant wormhole that connects to all the gates at one time...passing through them as it were. This would be impossible, because then, at each gate, there would be both an Outgoing and an Incoming wormhole...which is impossible.

The wormhole SHUTS DOWN at each gate, Then REDIALS to the next one. Because of this, you cannot send an IDC to the last gate in the system, Unless you dial twice. IF you did have to dial twice, it negates the need for an iris because anyone could then Dial in, and the iris would be open, it would require Immaculate timing...but it could be done.

If you did send the code, you would have to send the travelers through during the same wormhole, The patterns would be stored in the buffer, and all forwarded at the same time, In this event, the people on Midway would have mere microseconds to open an iris or shield before the people impacted against it. This is Physically impossible to do, seeing as no Human being could read that a code had been recieved, and open a metal sliding iris like in the sgc in microseconds. It's beyond our limitations.

Therefore, unless you want to kill off everyone who went to midway, having an iris or shield is just a non-issue.

Now, I realize that the earth gate opened the iris prior to the Wraith device coming through. This is, in my opinion, a very large plothole, because Rodney says, in the "Previously On" in midway "Stores you in it's buffer, then forwards you along to the next to the next to the next..." You step through the Atlantis or milky-way gate, and you do not rematerialize until you reach midway. a code from an iris would do the same, and they would be rematerialized one right after another. Any traveller on there way from midway to earth would not have time between the sending of the IDC and their arrival to allow someone to open an iris. It is just not plausible.

Thank you for your time.

vpk
February 19th, 2008, 11:43 PM
well live communication is possible so why can't they send an idc ahead of a traveller

2ndgenerationalteran
February 19th, 2008, 11:52 PM
i believe i have said that a few times, yes. Unfortunately that Adrift part where there is a dialogue between Ellis and Carter leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth. But it seems that they re adjusted back on track for Midway, i think they will rebuild but make some automatic beam buffer thing that can identify specific things that traveled through the gate.

Has any one ever wondered what would happen if some one in atlantis dials midway and about 5 minutes later some one from midway dials atlantis, what would happen when those two data pass each other or would it automatically fail?

Major_Griff
February 20th, 2008, 12:23 AM
The idc, like the idc sent by midway to the SGC and probably from midway to Atlantis is stored in the gate's buffer like the people and object sent though.

Midway is one of my favorite eps, but you are wrong. It is definitely possible to send an IDC through the gate bridge

Tupopoflungo
February 20th, 2008, 12:31 AM
The idc, like the idc sent by midway to the SGC and probably from midway to Atlantis is stored in the gate's buffer like the people and object sent though.

Midway is one of my favorite eps, but you are wrong. It is definitely possible to send an IDC through the gate bridge

I never said it was not possible to send the code...I said it was impossible to send the code along the bridge and get the iris opened in time to prevent the people from impacting upon the iris. Their is no evidence to suggest that the gate would take into account how long a time passed between things entering the event horizon and forward them in a brand new wormhole in that exact timing.

Gate-builder
February 20th, 2008, 02:19 AM
I have been reading posts about why they don't have Irises on the Midway Station. Am I the only one who understands that the McKay/Carter Intergalactic Gatebridge does not create one giant wormhole that connects to all the gates at one time...passing through them as it were. This would be impossible, because then, at each gate, there would be both an Outgoing and an Incoming wormhole...which is impossible.

The wormhole SHUTS DOWN at each gate, Then REDIALS to the next one. Because of this, you cannot send an IDC to the last gate in the system, Unless you dial twice. IF you did have to dial twice, it negates the need for an iris because anyone could then Dial in, and the iris would be open, it would require Immaculate timing...but it could be done.

If you did send the code, you would have to send the travelers through during the same wormhole, The patterns would be stored in the buffer, and all forwarded at the same time, In this event, the people on Midway would have mere microseconds to open an iris or shield before the people impacted against it. This is Physically impossible to do, seeing as no Human being could read that a code had been recieved, and open a metal sliding iris like in the sgc in microseconds. It's beyond our limitations.

Therefore, unless you want to kill off everyone who went to midway, having an iris or shield is just a non-issue.

Now, I realize that the earth gate opened the iris prior to the Wraith device coming through. This is, in my opinion, a very large plothole, because Rodney says, in the "Previously On" in midway "Stores you in it's buffer, then forwards you along to the next to the next to the next..." You step through the Atlantis or milky-way gate, and you do not rematerialize until you reach midway. a code from an iris would do the same, and they would be rematerialized one right after another. Any traveller on there way from midway to earth would not have time between the sending of the IDC and their arrival to allow someone to open an iris. It is just not plausible.

Thank you for your time.

Finally someone who understands! If the Midway system works as McKay said it does then it should be impossible to send IDCs, and to talk to someone from Midway by using an open wormhole. You have put it better than I ever could. Good post!

MattSilver 3k
February 20th, 2008, 02:26 AM
I always thought the only way to open the Midway gate was with the macro McKay designed, and Atlantis and Earth had it so they could link all the gates to the Midway.
That code was their Iris.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
February 20th, 2008, 06:18 AM
I never said it was not possible to send the code...I said it was impossible to send the code along the bridge and get the iris opened in time to prevent the people from impacting upon the iris. Their is no evidence to suggest that the gate would take into account how long a time passed between things entering the event horizon and forward them in a brand new wormhole in that exact timing.

Except that stargate travelers seemingly always arrive in the order they left, with the same amount of time between their arrivals as between their departures. I don't know if that's how it's supposed to work, but that's how it looks each time.


I always thought the only way to open the Midway gate was with the macro McKay designed, and Atlantis and Earth had it so they could link all the gates to the Midway.
That code was their Iris.

Good point. That would have kept out practically anyone except people with access to McKay's research, and they apparently didn't consider that Todd would commit such espionage. Talk about naive.

Dobberman
February 20th, 2008, 03:20 PM
Their is no evidence to suggest that the gate would take into account how long a time passed between things entering the event horizon and forward them in a brand new wormhole in that exact timing.

Except in this very episode you see the IDC from Midway being sent to the SGC, the iris being lowered and THEN the wraith stun weapon coming through.

IMForeman
February 20th, 2008, 03:56 PM
The gate has to have a timing mechanism in it for how and when it reintegrates matter. If you step through the gate 30 seconds after the wormhole engages, it will disgorge you 30 seconds after the gate engages at the receiving end. If it didn't do this, then multiple people walking through the origin gate at the Midway station would all emerge at the exact same time when the final gate engaged. So, we know the Gate must keep track of when they entered so it can send them out in the same order and timing they entered, with no accidental telefrags occurring.

So, if you want to send an IDC, it's totally possible. You open the gate. Send an IDC. Wait 60 seconds and proceed. The IDC will be sent through first when the Earth gate activates, giving them a full minute to analyze the IDC and open the Iris before the Gate rematerializes the travelers in the order they entered. The only thing you can't do is get an IDC response code, which poses a real problem.

Should the SGC be in lockdown, they have no way of sending a Do Not Proceed response, and the Midway travelers will be smooshified on the Iris. Not pleasant.

If Midway proved one thing, it isn't that the Gate Bridge is an unnecessary security risk, it's that having the bridge terminate at the SGC is an unnecessary security risk. The bridge should terminate at the Alpha Site, where security can determine the nature of the travelers before clearing them to proceed to Earth using tried and true IDC codes. If the travelers are hostile, then the Alpha site can attempt to contain it without ever exposing Earth to invasion through the Gate.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
February 20th, 2008, 05:16 PM
Good idea.

s09119
February 20th, 2008, 05:26 PM
I have been reading posts about why they don't have Irises on the Midway Station. Am I the only one who understands that the McKay/Carter Intergalactic Gatebridge does not create one giant wormhole that connects to all the gates at one time...passing through them as it were. This would be impossible, because then, at each gate, there would be both an Outgoing and an Incoming wormhole...which is impossible.

The wormhole SHUTS DOWN at each gate, Then REDIALS to the next one. Because of this, you cannot send an IDC to the last gate in the system, Unless you dial twice. IF you did have to dial twice, it negates the need for an iris because anyone could then Dial in, and the iris would be open, it would require Immaculate timing...but it could be done.

If you did send the code, you would have to send the travelers through during the same wormhole, The patterns would be stored in the buffer, and all forwarded at the same time, In this event, the people on Midway would have mere microseconds to open an iris or shield before the people impacted against it. This is Physically impossible to do, seeing as no Human being could read that a code had been recieved, and open a metal sliding iris like in the sgc in microseconds. It's beyond our limitations.

Therefore, unless you want to kill off everyone who went to midway, having an iris or shield is just a non-issue.

Now, I realize that the earth gate opened the iris prior to the Wraith device coming through. This is, in my opinion, a very large plothole, because Rodney says, in the "Previously On" in midway "Stores you in it's buffer, then forwards you along to the next to the next to the next..." You step through the Atlantis or milky-way gate, and you do not rematerialize until you reach midway. a code from an iris would do the same, and they would be rematerialized one right after another. Any traveller on there way from midway to earth would not have time between the sending of the IDC and their arrival to allow someone to open an iris. It is just not plausible.

Thank you for your time.

Very good post. You have been greened.

Avenger
February 20th, 2008, 07:24 PM
i believe i have said that a few times, yes. Unfortunately that Adrift part where there is a dialogue between Ellis and Carter leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth. But it seems that they re adjusted back on track for Midway, i think they will rebuild but make some automatic beam buffer thing that can identify specific things that traveled through the gate.



They did that using a single gate on the outer edge of the Galaxy and with a subspace transmitter to further boost the signal.. The gatebridge wasn't used in that instance.

kymeric
February 20th, 2008, 07:33 PM
I have been reading posts about why they don't have Irises on the Midway Station. Am I the only one who understands that the McKay/Carter Intergalactic Gatebridge does not create one giant wormhole that connects to all the gates at one time...passing through them as it were. This would be impossible, because then, at each gate, there would be both an Outgoing and an Incoming wormhole...which is impossible.

The wormhole SHUTS DOWN at each gate, Then REDIALS to the next one. Because of this, you cannot send an IDC to the last gate in the system, Unless you dial twice. IF you did have to dial twice, it negates the need for an iris because anyone could then Dial in, and the iris would be open, it would require Immaculate timing...but it could be done.

If you did send the code, you would have to send the travelers through during the same wormhole, The patterns would be stored in the buffer, and all forwarded at the same time, In this event, the people on Midway would have mere microseconds to open an iris or shield before the people impacted against it. This is Physically impossible to do, seeing as no Human being could read that a code had been recieved, and open a metal sliding iris like in the sgc in microseconds. It's beyond our limitations.

Therefore, unless you want to kill off everyone who went to midway, having an iris or shield is just a non-issue.

Now, I realize that the earth gate opened the iris prior to the Wraith device coming through. This is, in my opinion, a very large plothole, because Rodney says, in the "Previously On" in midway "Stores you in it's buffer, then forwards you along to the next to the next to the next..." You step through the Atlantis or milky-way gate, and you do not rematerialize until you reach midway. a code from an iris would do the same, and they would be rematerialized one right after another. Any traveller on there way from midway to earth would not have time between the sending of the IDC and their arrival to allow someone to open an iris. It is just not plausible.

Thank you for your time.

Id buy it

SoulReaver
February 20th, 2008, 08:06 PM
If you did send the code, you would have to send the travelers through during the same wormhole, The patterns would be stored in the buffer, and all forwarded at the same time, In this event, the people on Midway would have mere microseconds to open an iris or shield before the people impacted against it. This is Physically impossible to do, seeing as no Human being could read that a code had been recieved, and open a metal sliding iris like in the sgc in microseconds. It's beyond our limitations. well yeah, take it as an added risk factor that would add a little "zest" to the whole thing http://img.infos-du-net.com/forum/images/perso/gneu.gif

Chaos-Storm
February 20th, 2008, 08:45 PM
The gate has to have a timing mechanism in it for how and when it reintegrates matter. If you step through the gate 30 seconds after the wormhole engages, it will disgorge you 30 seconds after the gate engages at the receiving end. If it didn't do this, then multiple people walking through the origin gate at the Midway station would all emerge at the exact same time when the final gate engaged. So, we know the Gate must keep track of when they entered so it can send them out in the same order and timing they entered, with no accidental telefrags occurring.

So, if you want to send an IDC, it's totally possible. You open the gate. Send an IDC. Wait 60 seconds and proceed. The IDC will be sent through first when the Earth gate activates, giving them a full minute to analyze the IDC and open the Iris before the Gate rematerializes the travelers in the order they entered. The only thing you can't do is get an IDC response code, which poses a real problem.

Should the SGC be in lockdown, they have no way of sending a Do Not Proceed response, and the Midway travelers will be smooshified on the Iris. Not pleasant.

If Midway proved one thing, it isn't that the Gate Bridge is an unnecessary security risk, it's that having the bridge terminate at the SGC is an unnecessary security risk. The bridge should terminate at the Alpha Site, where security can determine the nature of the travelers before clearing them to proceed to Earth using tried and true IDC codes. If the travelers are hostile, then the Alpha site can attempt to contain it without ever exposing Earth to invasion through the Gate.

That still doesn't explain live communication through the gate in The Return P2, unless the Ancients used their ZPM to open a warmhole directly to earth.

Tupopoflungo
February 20th, 2008, 09:08 PM
Except that stargate travelers seemingly always arrive in the order they left, with the same amount of time between their arrivals as between their departures. I don't know if that's how it's supposed to work, but that's how it looks each time.



Good point. That would have kept out practically anyone except people with access to McKay's research, and they apparently didn't consider that Todd would commit such espionage. Talk about naive.



The gate has to have a timing mechanism in it for how and when it reintegrates matter. If you step through the gate 30 seconds after the wormhole engages, it will disgorge you 30 seconds after the gate engages at the receiving end. If it didn't do this, then multiple people walking through the origin gate at the Midway station would all emerge at the exact same time when the final gate engaged. So, we know the Gate must keep track of when they entered so it can send them out in the same order and timing they entered, with no accidental telefrags occurring.

So, if you want to send an IDC, it's totally possible. You open the gate. Send an IDC. Wait 60 seconds and proceed. The IDC will be sent through first when the Earth gate activates, giving them a full minute to analyze the IDC and open the Iris before the Gate rematerializes the travelers in the order they entered. The only thing you can't do is get an IDC response code, which poses a real problem.

Should the SGC be in lockdown, they have no way of sending a Do Not Proceed response, and the Midway travelers will be smooshified on the Iris. Not pleasant.



The things being shown in the past have no effect on this episode. Simply because between each gate, the gate DEACTIVATES, and reconnects to the next one.

I will give you that in the past, they come through in the order they are received with timing taken into account. but that is simply because they are not being stored in a buffer while a new wormhole connects. they are traveling through the wormhole, as soon as they fully enter it. it is an entirely different scenario.


Except in this very episode you see the IDC from Midway being sent to the SGC, the iris being lowered and THEN the wraith stun weapon coming through.

This, as I stated before, is a plothole.




That still doesn't explain live communication through the gate in The Return P2, unless the Ancients used their ZPM to open a warmhole directly to earth.


The ancients used the ZPM the midway bridge had not been completed at this time...

BubblingOverWithIdeas
February 20th, 2008, 09:41 PM
The things being shown in the past have no effect on this episode. Simply because between each gate, the gate DEACTIVATES, and reconnects to the next one.

I will give you that in the past, they come through in the order they are received with timing taken into account. but that is simply because they are not being stored in a buffer while a new wormhole connects. they are traveling through the wormhole, as soon as they fully enter it. it is an entirely different scenario.

A traveler's information is always stored in the buffer before reintegration.


This, as I stated before, is a plothole.

No, it's clear onscreen evidence that this is the way it works. The gate keeps track of the time that passed between objects entering it, and passes that information to the next gate.


The ancients used the ZPM the midway bridge had not been completed at this time...

This is true.

Tupopoflungo
February 20th, 2008, 09:45 PM
A traveler's information is always stored in the buffer before reintegration.

You misunderstood what i said. I said they are not stored in the buffer WHILE A NEW WORMHOLE CONNECTS. Their information is stored in the buffer temporarily, only to ensure that the whole pattern comes through, as evidenced in "48 Hours"




No, it's clear onscreen evidence that this is the way it works. The gate keeps track of the time that passed between objects entering it, and passes that information to the next gate.

As i said, this is only evidenced during 1 wormhole. Not between several wormholes. Each one disconnects, then reconnects to the next gate.

1138
February 20th, 2008, 10:33 PM
The ancients used the ZPM the midway bridge had not been completed at this time...

Didn't Landry use the gate bridge to contact Sheppard at Midway?

Tupopoflungo
February 20th, 2008, 11:43 PM
Didn't Landry use the gate bridge to contact Sheppard at Midway?

Episode?

MattSilver 3k
February 20th, 2008, 11:50 PM
Episode?

Return 1. But he just activated the gate and radio'd him.

Tupopoflungo
February 21st, 2008, 12:12 AM
Did they actively talk? back and forth?

bcharley
February 21st, 2008, 12:14 AM
Tupopoflungo, if what you're saying is correct then why didn't the gate at Midway spit all the Wraith out at the same time in one interconnected blob? A blob that Ronan and Teal'c would've been a part of when they followed the Wraith to Earth using the same wormhole.

The answer's simple. The stargates don't only store the information and physical space of an object in their buffer, they also store the time that the object passed through the event horizon.

So from Midway they would have connected to the next gate in the network, sent the IDC, waited a minute and then walked through. The wormhole would then shut down and the recieving gate would dial the next gate in the network and forward the information in it's buffer, etc, etc. Finally the last gate in the bridge would connect to Earth, the IDC would come through and a minute later they would arrive at the SGC.

Tupopoflungo
February 21st, 2008, 12:31 AM
Tupopoflungo, if what you're saying is correct then why didn't the gate at Midway spit all the Wraith out at the same time in one interconnected blob? A blob that Ronan and Teal'c would've been a part of when they followed the Wraith to Earth using the same wormhole.

The answer's simple. The stargates don't only store the information and physical space of an object in their buffer, they also store the time that the object passed through the event horizon.

So from Midway they would have connected to the next gate in the network, sent the IDC, waited a minute and then walked through. The wormhole would then shut down and the recieving gate would dial the next gate in the network and forward the information in it's buffer, etc, etc. Finally the last gate in the bridge would connect to Earth, the IDC would come through and a minute later they would arrive at the SGC.

Indeed you are correct, Going over any data I have correlated from this thread I concede this point.


However, the fact on whether or not the iris would be effective I do not concede. The GDO sends the code to the Iris computer, the Iris computer then, after the iris has been opened, sends a code back to the GDO to confirm the iris has been opened. (more speculation, based on the fact that the people coming through the worm-hole would have no idea whether or not the iris was opened any other way...) Therefore, people sending a GDO code through the Gate-Bridge, would not allow them to recieve the "Go code".

IMForeman
February 21st, 2008, 03:31 AM
Indeed you are correct, Going over any data I have correlated from this thread I concede this point.


However, the fact on whether or not the iris would be effective I do not concede. The GDO sends the code to the Iris computer, the Iris computer then, after the iris has been opened, sends a code back to the GDO to confirm the iris has been opened. (more speculation, based on the fact that the people coming through the worm-hole would have no idea whether or not the iris was opened any other way...) Therefore, people sending a GDO code through the Gate-Bridge, would not allow them to recieve the "Go code".

I said as much in my initial post. Due to the timing information that must be stored with each forwarded gate activation, an IDC code can be sent... and indeed in "Midway" it's shown that Midway station did send an automatic IDC to Earth... but neither a "proceed" nor a "do not proceed" can be sent back. Which, as I said above, is inherently a problem. That's why I reccomend the terminus be moved from the SGC to the Alpha Site. This way the travellers can be assured that there's no smooshification waiting, and Earth has an extra level of security.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
February 21st, 2008, 06:51 AM
I said as much in my initial post. Due to the timing information that must be stored with each forwarded gate activation, an IDC code can be sent... and indeed in "Midway" it's shown that Midway station did send an automatic IDC to Earth... but neither a "proceed" nor a "do not proceed" can be sent back. Which, as I said above, is inherently a problem. That's why I reccomend the terminus be moved from the SGC to the Alpha Site. This way the travellers can be assured that there's no smooshification waiting, and Earth has an extra level of security.

Well, if not assured, then nearly so. Alpha Site does occasionally go into lockdown, but Earth is a much juicier target.

Tupopoflungo
February 21st, 2008, 10:13 PM
Well, if not assured, then nearly so. Alpha Site does occasionally go into lockdown, but Earth is a much juicier target.


well with 6 billion+people...im sure it is exactly that to the wraith... juicier target..

SG-ME
February 26th, 2008, 07:59 AM
I have a question that i dont think has been asked yet. I am in the middle of re-watching "Midway" and i have noticed a crucial flaw in the wraiths plan to take over the base. When they first dial earth and send the big stunner bomb through the gate, chief says "Midway's IDC. Opening Iris" and he opens the iris via hand ID, it doesn't do it automaticly. So since all of the base is now stunned when the wraith redial and step through there is no one to open the iris and they will be squashed by the iris.:mckay:

IMForeman
February 26th, 2008, 03:47 PM
I have a question that i dont think has been asked yet. I am in the middle of re-watching "Midway" and i have noticed a crucial flaw in the wraiths plan to take over the base. When they first dial earth and send the big stunner bomb through the gate, chief says "Midway's IDC. Opening Iris" and he opens the iris via hand ID, it doesn't do it automaticly. So since all of the base is now stunned when the wraith redial and step through there is no one to open the iris and they will be squashed by the iris.:mckay:

Well, nobody would be awake to close the iris in the first place. It doesn't open or close automatically since the hand scanners were installed in "Show and Tell." So, if the stunner beach ball did the trick it were supposed to, then the iris would be left open with nobody to close it and Earth would be theirs for the taking...

... but they hadn't counted on Teal'c and Ronon.