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View Full Version : Why didn't Atlantis warn the SGC using the ZPM?



AscendedThor
February 18th, 2008, 01:45 AM
The moment Atlantis realized the Wraith went to the Midway station, it should have been obvious they will try to get to Earth.
So they should have immediately dialed Earth directly using the ZPM to warn the SGC, check the status and if necessary send reinforcements there.

Major_Griff
February 18th, 2008, 02:05 AM
Good point. But then we wouldn't have gotten to see Teal'c and Ronon beast 40 wraith all by themselves.

Vala_M
February 18th, 2008, 06:46 AM
That was back before they knew the Wraith were responsible for the Intergalactic Bridge not working so that wouldn't have made sence to do.

Vala,

gopher65
February 18th, 2008, 07:14 AM
That was back before they knew the Wraith were responsible for the Intergalactic Bridge not working so that wouldn't have made sence to do.
Actually, they find out the Wraith are responsible well BEFORE the Wraith dial Earth. They also know what the wraith are up to. So it takes them a few minutes to assemble a team to retake midway... why can't they use that time to direct-dial Earth? "SGC, we have a problem. Close your iris and send reinforcements to midway ASAP! We'll do the same." Then, as soon as John and team are ready, they send them through, and Earth does the same 3 minutes later. Midway saved.

This episode had so many stupid illogical plot devices and plot omissions in it that I simply can't enjoy it:(. Writing this poor should never make it on to TV.

Carl Binder, you have let me down:(.

Argosy
February 18th, 2008, 08:06 AM
Wow! I just saw this thread, & am glad that I’m not the only one to see that the “Emperor is wearing no clothes”.

To me this is one of the worse episodes of the season.

I could barely sit through it to see the fight scenes.

SoulReaver
February 18th, 2008, 10:20 AM
The moment Atlantis realized the Wraith went to the Midway station, it should have been obvious they will try to get to Earth.
So they should have immediately dialed Earth directly using the ZPM to warn the SGC, check the status and if necessary send reinforcements there.maybe they never expected the wraith to be able to crack the IDC & make it to earth, nor overcome SGC's defenses if they did make it there - sure they could've warned earth but maybe for all they knew the invasion stopped at Midway & only Midway was targetted (and compromised)

or perhaps they've become even stingier than before when it comes to using the ZPM ^_^

rarocks24
February 18th, 2008, 11:34 AM
maybe they never expected the wraith to be able to crack the IDC & make it to earth, nor overcome SGC's defenses if they did make it there - sure they could've warned earth but for maybe all they knew the invasion stopped at Midway & only Midway was targetted (and compromised)

or perhaps they've become even stingier than before when it comes to using the ZPM ^_^

At the rate we go through them, that's the likely explanation. And we had to see Ronon and Teal'c kick Wraith ass for 30 minutes in the SGC (mostly due to cost of effects and production).

gopher65
February 18th, 2008, 02:41 PM
Yeah, but remember Letters From Pegasus? They opened the wormhole for 1.3 seconds and sent a databurst containing everything they had. If they just wanted to send a 4 world warning (DANGER: WRAITH AT MIDWAY) they could have blipped the wormhole open for a millisecond and then closed it.

Heck, they wouldn't have even needed to use the ZPM for that. I assume that after season one they had a bunch more Naquada generators brought by the Daedalus and the Apollo. If four generators in overload mode can power the gate to Earth for 1.3 seconds, surely 10 or 15 mark one's could power it for that same amount of time in their normal mode.

Redhooks
February 18th, 2008, 03:04 PM
Yeah, but remember Letters From Pegasus? They opened the wormhole for 1.3 seconds and sent a databurst containing everything they had. If they just wanted to send a 4 world warning (DANGER: WRAITH AT MIDWAY) they could have blipped the wormhole open for a millisecond and then closed it.

Heck, they wouldn't have even needed to use the ZPM for that. I assume that after season one they had a bunch more Naquada generators brought by the Daedalus and the Apollo. If four generators in overload mode can power the gate to Earth for 1.3 seconds, surely 10 or 15 mark one's could power it for that same amount of time in their normal mode.
But it would have made the episode not as thrilling because Earth/SGC would have never been invaded and then we would have missed all the cool parts with Teal'c and Ronon defeating the Wraith. There is almost always a better way to do something in a story, but it would make the story boring and not very exciting. For example, in Travelers, if Larrin would have immediately released Sheppard after she found out the Wraith ship was coming, he then could have moved the ship into hyperspace and the Wraith ship would have never found them. Instead, she hit him three times and threatened him with her energy pistol, thus giving the Wraith time to arrive. But then, half of the episode would have changed since there was no longer a threat from the Wraith. Sometimes I think a story is thought up with the end first and then the details are worked out backward towards the start. Also sometimes, you have to ignore the better method of something occurring in order to make the story interesting.

gopher65
February 18th, 2008, 09:38 PM
But it would have made the episode not as thrilling<snip>
Clever, intelligent writers don't need to use illogical plot devices to write a thrilling, interesting story. REAL writers don't do that. Only hacks do that. I knew Stargate had a limited budget, but geez. I'd be willing to have them cut one 4 second long CGI scene from each episode if they would use that money to hire writers that were... you know... actually good at their jobs.

inta
February 18th, 2008, 10:00 PM
I pointed this out in the "midway has no iris" thread.

this episode was a bunch of fun, but as far as logic and sci fi goes it was pretty weak.

also, why didn't the wraith CLOSE the iris in the sgc to block any reinforcements from possibly coming?
they figured out how to turn off the midway alarm and crack the midway-to-sgc macro... they easily could have put walters hand on the console and closed the iris.

fun episode, but pretty weak in some areas.

PG15
February 18th, 2008, 11:19 PM
Why would the Wraith close the Iris when they themselves were expecting back up? How do they even know that there was an iris to begin with?

Redhooks
February 18th, 2008, 11:20 PM
I pointed this out in the "midway has no iris" thread.

this episode was a bunch of fun, but as far as logic and sci fi goes it was pretty weak.

also, why didn't the wraith CLOSE the iris in the sgc to block any reinforcements from possibly coming?
they figured out how to turn off the midway alarm and crack the midway-to-sgc macro... they easily could have put walters hand on the console and closed the iris.

fun episode, but pretty weak in some areas.
Maybe because only Drones made to the SGC and not any of the scientist Wraith?

jdbond
February 19th, 2008, 04:15 AM
Who knows, may be they tried but no one answered thanks to wraith stun device. Would it be illogical to presume that wraith knocked everyone out before Atlantis command could do something about it?

Jeffala
February 19th, 2008, 07:10 AM
also, why didn't the wraith CLOSE the iris in the sgc to block any reinforcements from possibly coming?

Hell for that matter, why didn't Teal'c close the damned thing when he and Ronon were in the control room?

This was a good shoot-'em-up episode but it was just chock full of stupid.

JSPuddlejumper
February 19th, 2008, 04:44 PM
I also thought of that as well.

But I really loved the episode 10/10, best SGA episode in such a long time.


Wraith were ultra stupide to try to make a beach head on Earth. One Hive has what, 200-300 Wraith vs 6+ billion humans, not to be mention the 304's in space...Suicidal foolishness.

Hell, not even 12 Hives could take Earth now.

beale947
February 21st, 2008, 02:39 AM
No, a hive ship has a compliments of 3000+ wraith, and we know that is a small number. We don't know the compliment of a cruiser, which was the ship that had landed.

gopher65
February 21st, 2008, 06:22 AM
Wraith Hives are 5 km long. That's the size of a medium city, and in 3 dimensions to boot. One of the problems with scifi in general is that the writers don't understand the difference between area and volume. A ship that is 5000 m x 3000m x 1000m (or so) is 15 billion cubic metres (some of it is space between parts of the ship, so let's say 10 billion).

That is ENORMOUS. If there are only 300, or even 3000, Wraith on a ship that big they'd be lucky to ever see each other. Think of New York City with 3000 people living in it (that might not be far off actually... anyone know how many cubic metres every building in NYC has, combined?). Unless of course most of the ship was taken up with equipment and there was only a small, tightly packed area of living space. But we know that isn't true because if they were short on space they wouldn't make ginormous sweeping (empty) chambers, huge prisoner cells, and giant hallways.

A ship that big should hold hundreds of thousands, possibly even millions, of Wraith.

This isn't just a Stargate problem though, all scifi shows do this. Humans think in 2 dimensions and the writers are human... probably.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
February 21st, 2008, 07:16 AM
A ship that big should hold hundreds of thousands, possibly even millions, of Wraith.


Perhaps a lot have starved? Or not. Good point.

PG15
February 21st, 2008, 11:58 AM
Wraith Hives are 5 km long. That's the size of a medium city, and in 3 dimensions to boot. One of the problems with scifi in general is that the writers don't understand the difference between area and volume. A ship that is 5000 m x 3000m x 1000m (or so) is 15 billion cubic metres (some of it is space between parts of the ship, so let's say 10 billion).

That is ENORMOUS. If there are only 300, or even 3000, Wraith on a ship that big they'd be lucky to ever see each other. Think of New York City with 3000 people living in it (that might not be far off actually... anyone know how many cubic metres every building in NYC has, combined?). Unless of course most of the ship was taken up with equipment and there was only a small, tightly packed area of living space. But we know that isn't true because if they were short on space they wouldn't make ginormous sweeping (empty) chambers, huge prisoner cells, and giant hallways.

Wait...doesn't the mere fact that it has those giant, empty spaces mean that there aren't that many Wraith around to fill a hive ship that didn't have them? Besides, they would also need room to store food. I think the hive ship - giant empty spaces - human storage facility and other stuff = room enough for 300 0 Wraiths to live side by side.

rarocks24
February 21st, 2008, 02:50 PM
Wraith Hives are 5 km long. That's the size of a medium city, and in 3 dimensions to boot. One of the problems with scifi in general is that the writers don't understand the difference between area and volume. A ship that is 5000 m x 3000m x 1000m (or so) is 15 billion cubic metres (some of it is space between parts of the ship, so let's say 10 billion).

That is ENORMOUS. If there are only 300, or even 3000, Wraith on a ship that big they'd be lucky to ever see each other. Think of New York City with 3000 people living in it (that might not be far off actually... anyone know how many cubic metres every building in NYC has, combined?). Unless of course most of the ship was taken up with equipment and there was only a small, tightly packed area of living space. But we know that isn't true because if they were short on space they wouldn't make ginormous sweeping (empty) chambers, huge prisoner cells, and giant hallways.

A ship that big should hold hundreds of thousands, possibly even millions, of Wraith.

This isn't just a Stargate problem though, all scifi shows do this. Humans think in 2 dimensions and the writers are human... probably.

When exactly has the size of a hive ship been stated?

JSPuddlejumper
February 21st, 2008, 04:14 PM
CGI artist said some where that Hives are 11km.

rarocks24
February 21st, 2008, 04:46 PM
CGI artist said some where that Hives are 11km.

Until it's officially stated in the show, a Wraith hive ship's size is as of yet undetermined.

It's not as if CGI hasn't screwed up things before a la Crusade.

gopher65
February 21st, 2008, 09:29 PM
Until it's officially stated in the show, a Wraith hive ship's size is as of yet undetermined.

It's not as if CGI hasn't screwed up things before a la Crusade.
I thought it was stated in The Siege 1, 2, or 3... but I could be wrong (something like "but those ships are 5 km long!"). In any case, we saw a Hive up against the Daedalus more than once. They are at least a few km long, and a few km wide, and at least a significant portion of 1 km high. The CGI people would have a hard time getting out of that, since we know about how big the Daedalus is. But if they make spacegates with both 8 and 9 Chevrons on them in alternating episodes without bothering to even look it up, then I guess they'll do anything without thinking. *slaps the CGI guys silly*

Scales mean little in CGI shots on Stargate:(. *longs for the B5 days when we could see two ships side by side and accurately guesstimate how big they were*

Shan Bruce Lee
February 21st, 2008, 10:19 PM
If Atlantis had warned the SGC about the Wraith on Midway by using the ZPM then not only would they have depleted a lot of power (which they mention in another conversation in the ep) but Teal'C and Ronon would have been killed when they followed the Wraith through the gate! Keep in mind that they would have had no way of knowing that the SGC had been warned.

JackHarkness_Hot
February 22nd, 2008, 01:17 AM
How would it take a lot of power?

In the past, Atlantis use to send people back to Earth via the non-stop, direct flight route but now that the Asurans are gone (well most of them anyway) and no knowledge of where additional ZPMs are located, they got to conserve as much of the zero point power as possible.

But that will mean nothing if Earth was taken over by the Wraith.

I concur that Atlantis should have tried to contact Earth, send a quick message and notify the SGC of the incursion of the Midway Station, they would have sent a squad of marines and rush midway with Atlantis doing the same.

However, if based on 4x01 Adrift that the Milk-Way gate has an iris, then the Wraith could have easily activated the iris and kill the marines, but then the Teal'c and Ronan would have known they were trying to stop incoming matters from the Milky Way therefore would have deactivated the iris.

As you can see, there are plenty of other ways to make this episode more reasonable and sill make it entertaining. All we ask are that writers take in account, the real world reasonableness, not out of the top of the head nonsensical stuff, like I will say this again (from other threads), for starters, no iris or shield? What planet did the writers come from? Evidently, one where they never heard of Stargate SG-1.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 22nd, 2008, 10:28 AM
How would it take a lot of power?

Because they say all the time that using the ZPM drains a lot of power? They even said it in this episode.

gopher65
February 22nd, 2008, 02:41 PM
Because they say all the time that using the ZPM drains a lot of power? They even said it in this episode.
They've already shown that they can contact earth without a ZPM. They can't send anything through, cause they can't keep the wormhole open long enough. But they can send a signal through. If they can do it with 4 reactors, surely they can do it with all the additional reactors that must have been brought to Atlantis since then?

So no, it wouldn't have needed to draw energy from the ZPM.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 22nd, 2008, 09:51 PM
They've already shown that they can contact earth without a ZPM. They can't send anything through, cause they can't keep the wormhole open long enough. But they can send a signal through. If they can do it with 4 reactors, surely they can do it with all the additional reactors that must have been brought to Atlantis since then?

So no, it wouldn't have needed to draw energy from the ZPM.

Sheppard specifically said (to Ronon) that he had to use the Midway station because they didn't want to drain power from the ZPM.

gopher65
February 23rd, 2008, 06:42 AM
Sheppard specifically said (to Ronon) that he had to use the Midway station because they didn't want to drain power from the ZPM.
For *travel* yes. Not for contact. They have the ability to blip the wormhole open using their Naquada generators, but it doesn't remain open long enough to send an object through, only a transmission.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 23rd, 2008, 09:31 PM
For *travel* yes. Not for contact. They have the ability to blip the wormhole open using their Naquada generators, but it doesn't remain open long enough to send an object through, only a transmission.

That only connected for a fraction of a second. Just because there's a ZPM now doesn't mean they've got all the power in the world to waste. Go back to the episode with the fog people to get an idea of just how much power is needed just to dial the gate for a few seconds. A ZPM isn't that much stronger.

AscendedThor
February 24th, 2008, 04:37 AM
That only connected for a fraction of a second. Just because there's a ZPM now doesn't mean they've got all the power in the world to waste. Go back to the episode with the fog people to get an idea of just how much power is needed just to dial the gate for a few seconds. A ZPM isn't that much stronger.



Isn't saving Stargate Command from a surprise Wraith sneak attack worth drawing some power from the ZPM?

Teal'c and Ronon wouldn't have died because the Wraith didn't go to Earth until after they got a signle from the stun device they sent to Earth. only after they knew it worked they went through. so if it wouldn't work due to the closed Iris, the Wraith wouldn't go there and Teal'c and Ronon wouldn't followed them but killed them all on Midway instead.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 24th, 2008, 10:40 PM
Isn't saving Stargate Command from a surprise Wraith sneak attack worth drawing some power from the ZPM?

Teal'c and Ronon wouldn't have died because the Wraith didn't go to Earth until after they got a signle from the stun device they sent to Earth. only after they knew it worked they went through. so if it wouldn't work due to the closed Iris, the Wraith wouldn't go there and Teal'c and Ronon wouldn't followed them but killed them all on Midway instead.

Atlantis went to help defend the Midway station and let the SGC defend their end if it even came to that (which Atlantis had no reason to believe it had yet) because they knew the standard protocal was to keep the Iris closed.

brooksyy
February 25th, 2008, 03:23 AM
I'm pretty sure that Atlantis didn't dial Earth directly once they found out because they believed Earth's Iris would protect their Stargate.

If I was to guess why the writers did not add SGC strike forces going to Midway it would probably be because of time. They would have to cram it in with Ronon and Teal'c useing the Gate to earth and they wouldn't have use for it. Atleast there was some action with Teal'C.