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Cree
February 15th, 2008, 06:32 AM
I think that earth and atlantis showed some almost goa'uld like stupidity and overconfidance here, by not adding iris's to the midway gates. never underestimate your enemy, it seems we're getting so powerful we are begining to make the same mistakes as the Goa'uld.

Also Kavanagh is an idiot, end off!

I loved the midways station, i hope they bring kavanagh back so he can die!

Hypochondriac
February 15th, 2008, 06:39 AM
They were overconfident, they shouldn't be, given the number of times the Wraith surprised them.
I liked the episode, while some points bugged me I can ignore them.

What I found more pathetic, were the two guards, there was an unscheduled activation but they still didn't draw their weapons until they saw the Wraith very sloppy.

I would have thought midway could go into a lock down like the SGC, the wraith got to the command center to quick.

Myles
February 15th, 2008, 07:06 AM
Considering you have to use a special macro from a specific gate, I'm not surprised they didn't have an iris. Of course after Todd went through, I would have added one, but it wouldn't have really mattered. The Wraith cracked the one code, they could have gotten an iris open, too.

talyn2k1
February 15th, 2008, 09:33 AM
I have to agree that with the extremely rapid acceleration of our technological development over the last 6 years (when the 302 was unveiled - our first major development from Stargate tech), we have always been very careful to not get over confident.

It would seem that ideology slipped a little with Midway. NOTHING is ever TOTALLY secure. Even if the chances of someone penetrating the system were a million to one, Irises are a relatively inexpensive and highly effective method for ensuring that if anyone does penetrate the system, they will be very quickly splatted.

Having said that, it it weren't for that particular little plot device, we wouldn't have had this fantastic episode, so it was all worth it in the end!

inta
February 15th, 2008, 09:36 AM
because it's a macro it's not possible to send idc to midway to open a gate.
you would have to stop at the last planet used and send idc from there.

The_Carpenter
February 15th, 2008, 09:37 AM
Considering you have to use a special macro from a specific gate, I'm not surprised they didn't have an iris. Of course after Todd went through, I would have added one, but it wouldn't have really mattered. The Wraith cracked the one code, they could have gotten an iris open, too.

We don't know if Todd went to Earth via midway or if Atlantis just dialled Earth direct. I assume the later since it was mentioned in the ep that Todd likely hacked into the Atlantis computers when he was working with McKay.

talyn2k1
February 15th, 2008, 02:21 PM
because it's a macro it's not possible to send idc to midway to open a gate.
you would have to stop at the last planet used and send idc from there.

It is possible because the SGC received an IDC from the last gate in the Milky Way portion of the bridge.
All you need to do is attach a transmitter to the last gate in the chain, hook it up to the gate so the macro can access it, and just have the macro send the IDC via the transmitter.

JSPuddlejumper
February 15th, 2008, 03:08 PM
Somewhat over confidence.

Ori are done, Asurans are "finished".

Earth's 304's > Ori ships > Aurora's > Hives.

[SGC_ReplicÅtors]
February 15th, 2008, 06:17 PM
I think that earth and atlantis showed some almost goa'uld like stupidity and overconfidance here, by not adding iris's to the midway gates. never underestimate your enemy, it seems we're getting so powerful we are begining to make the same mistakes as the Goa'uld.

Also Kavanagh is an idiot, end off!

I loved the midways station, i hope they bring kavanagh back so he can die!


I agree but if they had these counter measures we wouldn't have a sweet ass episode. But i agree if they had iris and IDCs they wouldn't have a problem like this and what i found really disturbing is the 2 guards at the gate room when a unscheduled gate activation, they where still talking and before they knew it pow pow. If you looked at the SGC/SGA every time they get a unscheduled gate activation they arm the entrance so if anything that steps out of the gate looks non human they can get them....


...all in all i bet the IOA is writing a report on this

Blistna
February 15th, 2008, 07:11 PM
I think that earth and atlantis showed some almost goa'uld like stupidity and overconfidance here, by not adding iris's to the midway gates. never underestimate your enemy, it seems we're getting so powerful we are begining to make the same mistakes as the Goa'uld.

Also Kavanagh is an idiot, end off!

I loved the midways station, i hope they bring kavanagh back so he can die!

I will say what i said to myself while I was watching this episode: The Ancients were far too often over confidant in themselves and their technology, and so are we. It will most likely lead to our demise one day, if it to ever occur.

ColCaldwell
February 15th, 2008, 07:14 PM
Indeed, that was my first thought. The fact that there was no iris/shield on the midway gates was pure stupidity.

berlin88
February 15th, 2008, 07:22 PM
I think the Wraith were equally stupid.

1. Why did they only stun the people at the SGC? they fed on like 5 people or less, and ignored the rest? I am suprised they didn't feed on more people, not that I wanted them to.

2. What were the Wraith hoping to do on Earth? gather intel? If Todd did indeed give them intel, he should have told them the base was underground and that getting out would not be possible.

As for the Midway station, there was no Iris because they assumed no one knew about Midway or would be unable to break the macro.

When it comes to Midway security, I do find it odd that the station has less than 10 people on it, and that Lee or Kavenough didn't activate the self destruct once they saw the Wraith invading.

McSwift
February 15th, 2008, 07:29 PM
I think that earth and atlantis showed some almost goa'uld like stupidity and overconfidance here, by not adding iris's to the midway gates. never underestimate your enemy, it seems we're getting so powerful we are begining to make the same mistakes as the Goa'uld.

Also Kavanagh is an idiot, end off!

I loved the midways station, i hope they bring kavanagh back so he can die!


I know. The Midway Station was an idea that could have been explored much further. I am not happy that it got wiped out.

I think that the reason that they destryoed the Midway Station was because they needed to clear the set for the design of the Phoenix (new Battlecruiser)

vaberella
February 15th, 2008, 07:33 PM
For Severe Stupidity I have to throw McKay in there as well. Kav is just second, becuase he wouldn't know but he's smart enough to have been cautious---or obviously not.

When he said..."He wouldn't do that. They were our allies..." ...I could have thrown a shoe at him or wished the Wraith upon him.

Give me a break, he was one of the ones caught in the damn wraith trap in Allies and now he's talking as though wraith can be fully trusted. He's out of his mind. The naivete just irked me like no other.

Mitchell82
February 15th, 2008, 07:38 PM
I think that earth and atlantis showed some almost goa'uld like stupidity and overconfidance here, by not adding iris's to the midway gates. never underestimate your enemy, it seems we're getting so powerful we are begining to make the same mistakes as the Goa'uld.

Also Kavanagh is an idiot, end off!

I loved the midways station, i hope they bring kavanagh back so he can die!
You had to use that macro so they thought they were secure. agree on Kav I was hoping he would die.

Willow'sCat
February 15th, 2008, 07:41 PM
For Severe Stupidity I have to throw McKay in there as well. Kav is just second, becuase he wouldn't know but he's smart enough to have been cautious---or obviously not.

When he said..."He wouldn't do that. They were our allies..." ...I could have thrown a shoe at him or wished the Wraith upon him.

Give me a break, he was one of the ones caught in the damn wraith trap in Allies and now he's talking as though wraith can be fully trusted. He's out of his mind. The naivete just irked me like no other.I do agree however McKay is the one who has worked the most closely with Todd, and Todd basically saved his sister's lifeI am willing to cut McKay some slack here, also McKay was still very much in the mind set of his macro *thingy* not being at fault, I think the whole thing was just too much for even his genius mind to handle at that moment. ;):cool:

Besides if you want to go down that road, then really Sheppard and even Carter are to blame as they agreed to let Todd on Atlantis in the first place to work with McKay. ;):rolleyes:

vaberella
February 15th, 2008, 08:12 PM
I do agree however McKay is the one who has worked the most closely with Todd, and Todd basically saved his sister's lifeI am willing to cut McKay some slack here, also McKay was still very much in the mind set of his macro *thingy* not being at fault, I think the whole thing was just too much for even his genius mind to handle at that moment. ;):cool:

Besides if you want to go down that road, then really Sheppard and even Carter are to blame as they agreed to let Todd on Atlantis in the first place to work with McKay. ;):rolleyes:

You don't have to mention those two brainiacs to me...S and C. At this point all I have to say is I want everyone on Atlantis eaten and I'm sure the Wraith will enjoy Teyla the most since she's close to being like a Turducken.

Now all I want is Ronon and Tealc to have their own show killing the bad guys...oh and okay let Sam live so she can marry Tealc.

But I understand what you're saying, no matter how stupid it was for him to say it.

Nightgod
February 15th, 2008, 08:32 PM
Couple of things that bug me

1) When John/McKay took control of the Command room on Midway how come they did not vent all the air at the beginning? That would have stopped all the Wraith.

2) At Stargate Command when you see an object coming through the gate that you don’t know shoot and ask question later. Also go to Code red.

3) Also when the gate activate at stargate command don’t the door for the gate room close? How come the Wraith were able to get out of the gate room at Stargate Command?

For a military run facility they seem to be making too many mistakes, procedure are not being followed.
With all the Sh*t that has happen at stargate command and off world you think they would learn

garhkal
February 15th, 2008, 09:28 PM
I think that earth and atlantis showed some almost goa'uld like stupidity and overconfidance here, by not adding iris's to the midway gates. never underestimate your enemy, it seems we're getting so powerful we are begining to make the same mistakes as the Goa'uld.


I agree, it did seem like we are getting arrogant in our tech superiority. BUT then again, so were the TOlans, the Gou'ald, the Asgard, the Ancients and even the wraith.. So maybe that is the way ALL technologically advanced races get beaten down..


I think the Wraith were equally stupid.

1. Why did they only stun the people at the SGC? they fed on like 5 people or less, and ignored the rest? I am suprised they didn't feed on more people, not that I wanted them to.

Very true. I was fearing we would loose a lot more of the SGC personnel than we did. Heck if i was those wraith i would have fed on everyone there, just because..



2. What were the Wraith hoping to do on Earth? gather intel? If Todd did indeed give them intel, he should have told them the base was underground and that getting out would not be possible.

It looked like their job was to find some way to get out of the base.. Though were i the one in charge, i would have planeted a bomb of sorts in the gate room to blow the SGC up. That would be a big loss to the people of earth, AND give the wraith a leg up since we would no longer have the capacity to resupply so quickly now with it gone.



and that Lee or Kavenough didn't activate the self destruct once they saw the Wraith invading.
Iam thinking they did not cause they are no where near as brave as would be required to do that. Heck did you see both lee and K willingly say if they knew the codes they would have given them up??


Couple of things that bug me

1) When John/McKay took control of the Command room on Midway how come they did not vent all the air at the beginning? That would have stopped all the Wraith.

Me and my mom were wondering that too, though maybe he was concerned for his teams still out in the corridors..



2) At Stargate Command when you see an object coming through the gate that you don’t know shoot and ask question later. Also go to Code red.

That was a BIG flubbage..

Major_Griff
February 15th, 2008, 09:39 PM
I wonder if in Miller's Xing if they used the ZPM to bring Todd to earth or if they went through the bridge. If they used the gate bridge, Todd would have had 24 hours to find out every thing he would need to know about midway station.

chestnu1
February 15th, 2008, 10:24 PM
Why is no one asking about how todd got back to atlantis they would have used midpoint to bring him back even if they used the zpm to get to the sgc in the first place they wouldn't of risked bringing a wraith on to a 304. Oh and thank you so much for spoiling the new battelcruiser by the way. And when it comes to midpoint they can always rebuild it latter on, probably with an iris or two. Which I am sure are not cheap because they have to mine the trinum off world and then they have to refine it and turn it into an iris and all of this is top secret so it is probably not cheap. The reason that they would rebuild midpoint is despite this little incident with the wraith it is still a better alternative than 3 weeks on a ship.

RepliVeggie
February 15th, 2008, 10:41 PM
I really loved this episode. Security will def be alot more strict and tight next time. Can't wait to see Midway v2. :) 10/10

JackHarkness_Hot
February 16th, 2008, 01:32 AM
I think that earth and atlantis showed some almost goa'uld like stupidity and overconfidance here, by not adding iris's to the midway gates. never underestimate your enemy, it seems we're getting so powerful we are begining to make the same mistakes as the Goa'uld.

Also Kavanagh is an idiot, end off!

I loved the midways station, i hope they bring kavanagh back so he can die!

Aye, I agree with you there!

It turned my :jack: to a :mckay: .

The most obvious primary defence, an Iris which has been used on the shows since Stargate SG-1 - (1x02)/(1x03)? and it was such a stupid careless mistake to make on the midway station considering, it's the bridge that connects the two galaxies together, very stupid mistake to make.

Also, I hope Kavanagh dies soon too, for somebody that claims he's uber intelligent, he isn't very smart, is he?

Lightbane
February 16th, 2008, 03:15 AM
No certainly not Rodney told him several times to not touch the controls because he was looking for a SAFE route. Duh.. if your intellegent as Kav claims to be wouldn't you just think that the wraith could have rigged somethings, the emergency override would have been the first thing the wraith would have compromised.

AGateFan
February 16th, 2008, 03:51 AM
They were overconfident, they shouldn't be, given the number of times the Wraith surprised them.
I liked the episode, while some points bugged me I can ignore them.

What I found more pathetic, were the two guards, there was an unscheduled activation but they still didn't draw their weapons until they saw the Wraith very sloppy.

I would have thought midway could go into a lock down like the SGC, the wraith got to the command center to quick.
I always imagined midway as having a decent gaurd post, with mounted machine guns or gou'ld energy weapons like they showed in the SGC or the shared Alpha site in season 6. It is the last hope to keep things from peagusus from getting to the milky way and vise versa and what is their defence?

Um looks like, two bored gaurds that dont even re-act with unscheduled activations and 3 civilian and particulaly useless in a battle scientist. No irisis. No self destruct. Hell even the SGC just opens the door for midway without any extra IDC. '

Oh and walter, next time you see an alien beach ball rolling down the ramp, you might want to freaking close the iris instead of standing up and staring at it. If someone from earth is stupid enough to throw something in ahead of them, without radioing first, they deserve to splat on the iris.

There was a lot of stupidity to over look in this ep and coincidences too (very bad timing on the wraith part). Still though, it was enjoyable enough, I just wish the writer could have thought out some of this stuff and given us a little more to hang onto the suspension of belief.

AGateFan
February 16th, 2008, 03:59 AM
Couple of things that bug me

1) When John/McKay took control of the Command room on Midway how come they did not vent all the air at the beginning? That would have stopped all the Wraith.

2) At Stargate Command when you see an object coming through the gate that you don’t know shoot and ask question later. Also go to Code red.

3) Also when the gate activate at stargate command don’t the door for the gate room close? How come the Wraith were able to get out of the gate room at Stargate Command?

For a military run facility they seem to be making too many mistakes, procedure are not being followed.
With all the Sh*t that has happen at stargate command and off world you think they would learn
That’s a great point.
You can take all the guards out of the gateroom and have that room completely sealed when receiving travelers. The guys in the control room could then choose to open a door and let the people into a decontamination room, or they could activate a "cleansing" of the room if it’s an enemy, like venting the atmosphere or flooding the room with some type of fire/gas/radiation...probably the first one is the easiest. Treat that gateroom like a giant airlock that is completely in control of the sealed off stations control room.

Achaja
February 16th, 2008, 04:05 AM
Also when exactly this guy from IOA wakes up as a first...hmm - tough guy! :S

prion
February 16th, 2008, 04:06 AM
Not having an iris was the ultimate stupidity, but then, we wouldn't have the episode plot without this glaring error ;)

JackHarkness_Hot
February 16th, 2008, 04:35 AM
I'm not dissing anyone, cos I love Stargate ;) but we run into the problem where common-sense and intelligence used to make fantastic Stargate episodes are blown out of the airlock for the sake of a "good episode". Which is a big no-no in my book.

If they can talk about fixing primary conduits in (4x01) Adrift in order to allow Atlantis to open a hyper-subspace window and fly to safety then installing an iris on each of the stargates shouldn't be a problem. LMAO! :D

MarshAngel
February 16th, 2008, 04:46 AM
Couple of things that bug me When John/McKay took control of the Command room on Midway how come they did not vent all the air at the beginning? That would have stopped all the Wraith.
Because you can't choose which idea comes to your mind first.


2) At Stargate Command when you see an object coming through the gate that you don’t know shoot and ask question later. Also go to Code red.
For the same reasons stated by everyone. Overconfidence that no one else could possibly know about midway so anything coming through must be from their own people who regularly save the world with odd methods.

[
] Also when the gate activate at stargate command don’t the door for the gate room close? How come the Wraith were able to get out of the gate room at Stargate Command?

For a military run facility they seem to be making too many mistakes, procedure are not being followed.
With all the Sh*t that has happen at stargate command and off world you think they would learn

They should, but i think they've gotten lax since they haven't had an attack via stargate in years. All their enemies have ships and the Wraith are in another galaxy. It's bad procedure but it's not unrealistic that people get lax.

x303
February 16th, 2008, 04:56 AM
I totally agree that they were way to condifdent. I mean if it is so important that the wraith don't find the milkyway then they need to go all out

I think they thought they were safe because

1) No one can just dial the midway station, you have to be either at Atlantis or the SGC with the corresponding macros to reach the midways line of space gates. so no real need for an iris on that count.

2) Also because no one can dial the midways gate address as they are not within eithers galaxy network they exist in the void between them so those line of gates are off the grid. thats why the wraith had to travel to the furthest planet hook up their tech to access the line of gates between galaxies to reach midway.

3) There's no one else really out there now that has galactic hyperspace capabilities so no need for shields because no body could reach the midway.

But still if they are the best of the best and have global funds then yeah an iris and shields would be an obvious precaution as "you never know".

If they rebuild it I'm guessin they'll be more cautious and need to make the midway as safe as the SGC or atleast a 304 with good lock down facilities and protocols and an iris.

Maybe not shields because if it does get overrun again a 304 or the puddle jumper or a 302 can come buy and jus blow it up. Becuase it is small and i doubt you could just hit it a few times and then board it with no problem. Because its no real use to an enemy like the wraith destoyed

Dutch_Razor
February 16th, 2008, 04:56 AM
I think that earth and atlantis showed some almost goa'uld like stupidity and overconfidance here, by not adding iris's to the midway gates. never underestimate your enemy, it seems we're getting so powerful we are begining to make the same mistakes as the Goa'uld.

Also Kavanagh is an idiot, end off!

I loved the midways station, i hope they bring kavanagh back so he can die!

An iris is very dangerous, if there is a mistake transferring the IDC like in A Matter of Time the idc coming through slowly it's !splat!.

We're "lucky" we've never seen an accident with it.

x303
February 16th, 2008, 05:14 AM
An iris is very dangerous, if there is a mistake transferring the IDC like in A Matter of Time the idc coming through slowly it's !splat!.

We're "lucky" we've never seen an accident with it.

yeah i don't think an iris would work now coz you need an consistently open wormhole which would allow waves to fly in between. the midway lines dials to one gate stores in buffer dials another and sends it thru. so radio waves wouldn't get thru as only matter is really transported thru the gate

but yeah i kno wonder if they're has been any IDC mishaps. couldn't an enemy hold out on a research base scans for IDC's when a gates open and then use it for an attack. unless they're given a randomised code each time so they only get one use?

Cree
February 16th, 2008, 06:43 AM
1) No one can just dial the midway station, you have to be either at Atlantis or the SGC with the corresponding macros to reach the midways line of space gates. so no real need for an iris on that count.



We have seen before though that the bridge can be hacked, in return part 2 mckay edited his own code to dial from a different gate in the milkyway!

granted stupidity etc blah blah, but it did give us one hell of an episode!

gopher65
February 16th, 2008, 08:13 AM
For an IDC:

What you do is this: Send through a group of travellers, with a special IDC. Have the last gate in the network programmed to scan the incoming matter stream for an IDC, then pause. Have a subspace transmitter on that gate. The gate activates the transmitter, and sends the IDC. If it receives a confirmation, then it unpauses the macro and continues forwarding it.

Or, better yet, get rid of the Iris completely. Have the gate on the receiving end scan the incoming matter stream, and then decide if you want it to reintegrate that stream. If you don't like what's coming through, press the big red delete key, like they almost did to Teal'c in that one episode. Presto, problem solved.

Major_Griff
February 16th, 2008, 08:45 AM
Hell even the SGC just opens the door for midway without any extra IDC.

watch it again walter says "Receiving Midway IDC." before opening the iris.

AGateFan
February 16th, 2008, 08:46 AM
watch it again walter says "Receiving Midway IDC." before opening the iris.
I said extra IDC. I assume that midway would send a standard IDC, now why not have whoever it is coming through put their IDC in, or Midway being required to put through a manual (all safe code) to go along with the standard "someone is dialing from midway" automatic code.

Major_Griff
February 16th, 2008, 08:51 AM
I said extra IDC. I assume that midway would send a standard IDC, now why not have whoever it is coming through put their IDC in, or Midway being required to put through a manual (all safe code) to go along with the standard "someone is dialing from midway" automatic code.

what would be the point of that? you don't send two idc's when you are gating in regularly. One idc is enough. They would have no reason to have more than just the midway IDC be broadcast. Obviously when they rebuild they need to install a couple of irises on the two gates, but there is no reason they would have made people broadcast more than one idc. That would be like SG-1 is returning from a mission and Jack sends his idc and they make Carter send hers too just to be sure Jack wasn't compromised. They wouldn't do that.

AGateFan
February 16th, 2008, 08:55 AM
When people put in the IDC from any other offsite world. It is a PERSON manually entering their personal (presumably secret, maybe randomly generated before each mission IDC). It makes a certain bit of sense to have midway send an auto one to indicate the stream is coming from that base. But unless you have someone enter in one MANUALLY you basically are giving anyone who takes over you computer free access to the SGC. As it is much easier to hack a computer then a person (well except maybe Kavanah who I hope to god they didnt give an IDC to) it would be practical to have a second IDC in this case, where it is not needed on other offworld missions.

Major_Griff
February 16th, 2008, 09:00 AM
When people put in the IDC from any other offsite world. It is a PERSON manually entering their personal (presumably secret, maybe randomly generated before each mission IDC). It makes a certain bit of sense to have midway send an auto one to indicate the stream is coming from that base. But unless you have someone enter in one MANUALLY you basically are giving anyone who takes over you computer free access to the SGC. As it is much easier to hack a computer then a person (well except maybe Kavanah who I hope to god they didnt give an IDC to) it would be practical to have a second IDC in this case, where it is not needed on other offworld missions.

I was working under the assumption that they sent the IDC manually and got the code form Dr. Lee, but even if they have an auto idc to be sent they still thought that Midway was totally secure, which was bone headed not to have extra security and irises on the the gates, but they thought Midway was secure so they would have no reason to need extra idc's.

AGateFan
February 16th, 2008, 09:02 AM
I was working under the assumption that they sent the IDC manually and got the code form Dr. Lee, but even if they have an auto idc to be sent they still thought that Midway was totally secure, which was bone headed not to have extra security and irises on the the gates, but they thought Midway was secure so they would have no reason to need extra idc's.
Yeah that was really their first mistake. And I dont know what they could possibly base that attitude on given they know that the wraith were able to hack the replicators base programing, what makes them think they cant hack Mckays program.

Major_Griff
February 16th, 2008, 09:06 AM
Yeah that was really their first mistake. And I dont know what they could possibly base that attitude on given they know that the wraith were able to hack the replicators base programing, what makes them think they cant hack Mckays program.

Very true, they were way too arrogant about that, especially after they very likely brought Todd, A WRAITH, through midway twice each time getting 24 hours to drink it all in. As soon as they let him go they should have installed irises on Midway, but it doesn't bother me too much since "Midway" was a really great ep imo. Definitely among my favs.

Golden`
February 16th, 2008, 09:10 AM
1) When John/McKay took control of the Command room on Midway how come they did not vent all the air at the beginning? That would have stopped all the Wraith.

For the same reason that John leaves Mckay, to try to save the marines.


2) At Stargate Command when you see an object coming through the gate that you don’t know shoot and ask question later. Also go to Code red.

Which could possibly cause a major explosion, start a reaction with a the gate, and blow up half of Colorado?


3) Also when the gate activate at stargate command don’t the door for the gate room close? How come the Wraith were able to get out of the gate room at Stargate Command?

The doors do close, I would assume the Wraith forced the left door open to leave as we see the right door is closed when Teal'c and Ronon come through.


As for the whole not having an iris on Midway deal, it wouldn't do any good. Anyone traveling to or from Midway would go through the last gate in the network. This gate would have to be the one from which the IDC is sent. Therefore, there would be no way to determine whether or not the incoming travelers are friendly. The only parts of the episode that disturbed me were the two guards nonchalantly chatting during an unscheduled activation and the fact that Mr. Coolidge was the first at the SGC to wake up after it has been demonstrated that those with stronger constitution general awaken from a stun first.

1138
February 16th, 2008, 09:41 AM
As for the whole not having an iris on Midway deal, it wouldn't do any good. Anyone traveling to or from Midway would go through the last gate in the network. This gate would have to be the one from which the IDC is sent. Therefore, there would be no way to determine whether or not the incoming travelers are friendly.

Midway was able to send an IDC to the SGC through the gate bridge. It was stated in the episode. Therefore, you can also send an IDC to Midway. Furthermore, you can send data through the bridge (McKay was doing the status reports just before they lost contact, also in this episode) and the IDC is just data. It does not have to be sent from the last gate.

Vala_M
February 16th, 2008, 09:43 AM
Couple of things that bug me

1) When John/McKay took control of the Command room on Midway how come they did not vent all the air at the beginning? That would have stopped all the Wraith.

2) At Stargate Command when you see an object coming through the gate that you don’t know shoot and ask question later. Also go to Code red.

3) Also when the gate activate at stargate command don’t the door for the gate room close? How come the Wraith were able to get out of the gate room at Stargate Command?

For a military run facility they seem to be making too many mistakes, procedure are not being followed.
With all the Sh*t that has happen at stargate command and off world you think they would learn

1. I guess since it would also kill the good guys, they did it as a last resort.

2. Because that Wraith thing was in a shield it wouldn't have done any good to shoot it apparently

3. I don't know. Maybe they took a keycard from one of the unconscious guards and opened it and closed it back?


I wonder if in Miller's Xing if they used the ZPM to bring Todd to earth or if they went through the bridge. If they used the gate bridge, Todd would have had 24 hours to find out every thing he would need to know about midway station.

They used the Intergalactic Bridge I'm fairly sure since they want to save ZPM power as much as possible. I wonder why saving the ZPM powr is an issue now, it apparently wasn't in season 2.

Vala,

Detox
February 16th, 2008, 10:42 AM
1. I guess since it would also kill the good guys, they did it as a last resort.

2. Because that Wraith thing was in a shield it wouldn't have done any good to shoot it apparently

3. I don't know. Maybe they took a keycard from one of the unconscious guards and opened it and closed it back?



They used the Intergalactic Bridge I'm fairly sure since they want to save ZPM power as much as possible. I wonder why saving the ZPM powr is an issue now, it apparently wasn't in season 2.

Vala,

I think ZPM power is an issue because they now have a alternate means of traveling between both galaxies, and hence there would be no point in wasting ZPM power on the gate.

Xaeden
February 16th, 2008, 11:12 AM
I disagree. There's arrogance involved here, but it's all Mckay. The only mistake those in charge made was trusting him... "The program is completely secure. No need for a shield or an Iris." -Mckay. He pulled the same thing this episode as he did in "The Return" with Landry by claiming there's no way his macro could be breeched. Landry was smart enough to order the station bombed anyway and pointed out that if the Replicators had access to the database and they were as intelligent as they clearly were they could crack his program. Which addresses another issue - There's no real way an enemy could get to midway without first getting sensitive information from Atlantis. So it's logical to assume you are safe unless Atlantis falls and before that happens you'd expect to get a warning as making a surprise invasion of Atlantis is rather difficult. In such situations where they receive warning they probably have precedures in place. Thus midway was equipped with a self destruct and lockdown protocals to begin with. Maybe if they didn't receive an update without a certain time after being alerted to a threat to Atlantis' security their orders were to destroy the station and go home. But Midway just heard from Atlantis and everything was fine which explains the soldier's relaxed nature. Nobody expected Todd to make off with secure information and again, that's Mckay's fault to some degree, but Atlantis also takes the blame for not placing a scientist behind Todd at all times to watch what he did on that computer. As far as those back on Earth knew Todd was being properly watched.

Anyway, I also think this was extremely stupid on the Wraith's part. It was Allies all over again. There they didn't know what defenses Earth could mount against them or what forces could threaten them in the Milky Way yet they were headed right off into danger without alerting any other factions of the plan and uniting to spearhead an attack into the Milky Way (or at least planning it as a scouting mission and sending the information to a third ship which was to release the information to all if they did not hear back from the two Hives). We, the audience knew it could be disasterous to Earth and so it made for an exciting two episodes, but as far as the Wraith knew they could've had a larger fleet defending Earth, had access to Ancient defenses, had allies they could call upon, (which they did - Bra'tac might've been able to pull a few favors and get some motherships to meet the Hives over Earth) etc.

It was just a generally shortsighted plan and the same is true here. Fine, they came up with a brilliant plan to get to Earth, but what they expect to get out of it once there? Obviously they didn't realize that the base would lockdown and so they couldn't get to the surface, but even if they were able to they could send as many waves as they wanted and it wouldn't have a difference. A planet with 6 billion Humans and an advanced military capable of building starships and launching the kind of ground attacks they have in the Pegasus galaxy is not going to fall no matter how many ground forces you send through and the number is going to be extremely limited anyway as it's only a matter of time before the base is bombed (which should be common sense for the Wraith). It was just a hopeless situation for them to go up against Earth without ship support.

They couldn't even send darts through. By the time they figured out how to move the Stargate out of the base and tried dragging it out of there, the base would've been bombed and even if they thought it was possible, the second they drag it out it a little bit out of the SGC it can be locked on to by a 304 and beamed away as the signal is only being jammed within the SGC. Which they don't know about, but okay fine, let's say they think they can get darts through. How many can fit into the Midway at a time? A half dozen? Then they have to dial Earth, wait 15 minutes for them to get through, have the midway station dialed again, wait 15 minutes for more to come through, and then repeat. All Earth had to do to counter this was deploy some 302s and the Daedalus. Then those those few that got through before the area was bombed wouldn't stand a chance.

No matter how many possible scenarios you go through it was a lose-lose situation for the Wraith, given what they were up to. There were better ways to use the Midway station to launch an attack against the Milky Way, but even in those it's just a matter of time before Earth shows up with a ship and beams a nuke unboard the station. The only thing that would've made sense to me is if they thought the SGC might have detailed specs regarding Earth hyperdrives on their computers, but that obviously wasn't the case given their attempts to reach the surface which would've alerted the military before the scientists had time to follow and try to access their computers. Secondary to that they could've tried dialing Atlantis from Midway and inputting the idc to get them to lower the shield and then sending their weapon through to Atlantis. Not knowing that Atlantis figured out something was wrong when they tried to send their status report through, it would've been reasonable for the Wraith to think that Atlantis would fall for it and it might've worked anyway.

kymeric
February 16th, 2008, 11:25 AM
Rofl, if they got locked out so they couldnt stop an incoming wormhole why would they be any more likely to be able to get into an iris control?

Lee: WHEW good thing they forgot to haxx the iris control, or we woulda been screwed!

Mitchell82
February 16th, 2008, 11:27 AM
I disagree. There's arrogance involved here, but it's all Mckay. The only mistake those in charge made was trusting him... "The program is completely secure. No need for a shield or an Iris." -Mckay. He pulled the same thing this episode as he did in "The Return" with Landry by claiming there's no way his macro could be breeched. Landry was smart enough to order the station bombed anyway and pointed out that if the Replicators had access to the database and they were as intelligent as they clearly were they could crack his program.
I disagree. In that instance the concern was that the Asurans would crack it. They are much smarter than the Wraith. THe only reason the Wraith were able to do it was because they now found out about Midway. Yes they were overconfident but that is a common flaw in the Military. They truly felt they were secure.


Which addresses another issue - There's no real way an enemy could get to midway without first getting sensitive information from Atlantis. So it's logical to assume you are safe unless Atlantis falls and before that happens you'd expect to get a warning as making a surprise invasion of Atlantis is rather difficult. In such situations where they receive warning they probably have precedures in place. Thus midway was equipped with a self destruct and lockdown protocals to begin with. Maybe if they didn't receive an update without a certain time after being alerted to a threat to Atlantis' security their orders were to destroy the station and go home. But Midway just heard from Atlantis and everything was fine which explains the soldier's relaxed nature. Nobody expected Todd to make off with secure information and again, that's Mckay's fault to some degree, but Atlantis also takes the blame for not placing a scientist behind Todd at all times to watch what he did on that computer. As far as those back on Earth knew Todd was being properly watched.
Todd was properly watched. I think it is possible that he didn't willingly give the information up. He is a Wraith but I think he knows that his friendship with us is worth the price of not revealing that information. I think he was forced to reveal that info.


Anyway, I also think this was extremely stupid on the Wraith's part. It was Allies all over again. There they didn't know what defenses Earth could mount against them or what forces could threaten them in the Milky Way yet they were headed right off into danger without alerting any other factions of the plan and uniting to spearhead an attack into the Milky Way (or at least planning it as a scouting mission and sending the information to a third ship which was to release the information to all if they did not hear back from the two Hives). We, the audience knew it could be disasterous to Earth and so it made for an exciting two episodes, but as far as the Wraith knew they could've had a larger fleet defending Earth, had access to Ancient defenses, had allies they could call upon, (which they did - Bra'tac might've been able to pull a few favors and get some motherships to meet the Hives over Earth) etc.

It was just a generally shortsighted plan and the same is true here. Fine, they came up with a brilliant plan to get to Earth, but what they expect to get out of it once there? Obviously they didn't realize that the base would lockdown and so they couldn't get to the surface, but even if they were able to they could send as many waves as they wanted and it wouldn't have a difference.
I disagree. In allies they truly didn't know what they would be up against in this case they did. If they had made it to the surface it would have been a huge problem.


A planet with 6 billion Humans and an advanced military capable of building starships and launching the kind of ground attacks they have in the Pegasus galaxy is not going to fall no matter how many ground forces you send through and the number is going to be extremely limited anyway as it's only a matter of time before the base is bombed (which should be common sense for the Wraith). It was just a hopeless situation for them to go up against Earth without ship support.
Wrong. By themselves yes we would have stopped them but once they got to the surface they could tag Earth and then call their fleet to come in which place we would be screwed.


They couldn't even send darts through. By the time they figured out how to move the Stargate out of the base and tried dragging it out of there, the base would've been bombed and even if they thought it was possible, the second they drag it out it a little bit out of the SGC it can be locked on to by a 304 and beamed away as the signal is only being jammed within the SGC. Which they don't know about, but okay fine, let's say they think they can get darts through. How many can fit into the Midway at a time? A half dozen? Then they have to dial Earth, wait 15 minutes for them to get through, have the midway station dialed again, wait 15 minutes for more to come through, and then repeat. All Earth had to do to counter this was deploy some 302s and the Daedalus. Then those those few that got through before the area was bombed wouldn't stand a chance.

No matter how many possible scenarios you go through it was a lose-lose situation for the Wraith, given what they were up to. There were better ways to use the Midway station to launch an attack against the Milky Way, but even in those it's just a matter of time before Earth shows up with a ship and beams a nuke unboard the station. The only thing that would've made sense to me is if they thought the SGC might have detailed specs regarding Earth hyperdrives on their computers, but that obviously wasn't the case given their attempts to reach the surface which would've alerted the military before the scientists had time to follow and try to access their computers. Secondary to that they could've tried dialing Atlantis from Midway and inputting the idc to get them to lower the shield and then sending their weapon through to Atlantis. Not knowing that Atlantis figured out something was wrong when they tried to send their status report through, it would've been reasonable for the Wraith to think that Atlantis would fall for it and it might've worked anyway.
As I said all they'd need to do is get to the surface then it would have been game over.

HyperspaceDaemon
February 16th, 2008, 12:56 PM
Having said that, it it weren't for that particular little plot device, we wouldn't have had this fantastic episode, so it was all worth it in the end!

Wrong : the writers could have invented some explanation how the Wraith intrusion that doesn't rely on the incredible lack of security measures .

For example : the Midway station should have had an iris , which gets opened only if the person on the other side sends the proper id code ( the SG-1 was forced to do that for years before each time when they wanted to go back home ... ). And, we could imagine that the Wraith somehow obtained one of the id code transmitters and hacked that device in order to fool the security system. This would have made it possible for the Wraith to infiltrate , and at the same time the security breach wouldn't have been such a fiasco from the humans' point of view .

Dobberman
February 16th, 2008, 01:07 PM
I have to say i'm rather disappointed by the whole 'midway station doesnt need an iris' plotpoint. They cheated. Rodney DID NOT (at least on screen) say 'the program is completely secure, no need for a shield or an iris' in The Return Part 1 and in 'Adrift' you clearly see the dialing computer on the midway show a closed iris on the Milkyway stargate:


http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s4/401/adrift%5F0222.jpg


Sure it was just the milkyway gate but I find it incredibly difficult to believe they'd put one on the milkyway gate but not the pegasus gate. The whole plot point was rather contrived. I'm very disappointed by that. What do you guys think?

Gaeth
February 16th, 2008, 04:42 PM
Well I guess the encoding macro or whatever was the 'iris'. It's not as if the Stargate personnel's frequent shortsightedness is that unrealistic, considering how much our (U.S.) government does it. In fact if they wanted to be accurate they should be messing up more, way more.

Avenger
February 16th, 2008, 04:45 PM
If there had been irises, the Wraith would have figured out how to override them given the amount of control they had. Besides, the Pegasus gates use shields, as we see with the Atlantis gate. Also, physical irises are opened and closed with a simple switch. It really wouldn't have made a difference.

jyh
February 16th, 2008, 04:55 PM
I think Nightgod's questions were all good, and I'm not completely convinced by some of the answers that have been offered.

Also, must agree w/ Xaeden. I think Rodney's macros or systems or equations, or whatever, were obviously not as infallible as he thought. Not to mention the ego of him, saying that HE created wrote all the programs for the Midway/gate system. I don't think the IOA would agree that all that work, including gate programs and security systems, could or should possibly be completed by one single man.

I really do hope the Midway station is rebuilt. Obviously they now know of all sorts of security upgrades that need to be incorporated.

Avenger
February 16th, 2008, 04:55 PM
Given the way the gate bridge works, an ID code system isn't practical. It takes 15 minutes for someone traveling the gate bridge to reach the station. It would take that long for the ID code to get there. For what you are suggesting, the person would have to send the code, wait while their code is sent then wait again while a confirmation is sent back.


I think that earth and atlantis showed some almost goa'uld like stupidity and overconfidance here, by not adding iris's to the midway gates. never underestimate your enemy, it seems we're getting so powerful we are begining to make the same mistakes as the Goa'uld.

Would irises really have made that much of a difference? Given the level of control the Wraith were able to obtain through hacking the gate macros, would it have been so difficult for them to override an iris as well? Not at all.

gopher65
February 16th, 2008, 05:00 PM
It wouldn't have mattered if there was an Iris or not. Why? For the same reason that it didn't matter how secure McKay's dialling program was.

The Wraith didn't actually crack McKay's code. They went to a Stargate that they knew was part of the bridge (via Todd), and they waited there until Atlantis dialled Midway. Then they just connected a keylogger to the gate and waited while McKay's code activated the gate. Then they just pressed Ctrl + C. That's it. A six year old could have done it, and no cracking required. If a GDO signal had been sent through, they would have copied that along with any other signal that was sent through.

So an Iris or lack thereof is irrelevant in this situation.

Also, this probably wasn't Todd's fault. The Wraith are telepaths. They could have just lifted it straight from his mind.

Avenger
February 16th, 2008, 05:03 PM
And they never made it clear of Todd gave up the info freely or if he was coerced into doing so.

Gaeth
February 16th, 2008, 05:05 PM
Well I guess the encoding macro or whatever was the 'iris'. It's not as if the Stargate personnel's frequent shortsightedness is that unrealistic, considering how much our (U.S.) government does it. In fact if they wanted to be accurate they should be messing up more, way more.

Gaeth
February 16th, 2008, 05:14 PM
If there had been irises, the Wraith would have figured out how to override them given the amount of control they had. Besides, the Pegasus gates use shields, as we see with the Atlantis gate. Also, physical irises are opened and closed with a simple switch. It really wouldn't have made a difference.

Yeah, remember when the replicators hacked in remotely and made the iris open? So we know it could be done. Being a fan, if I wrote the episode I would have thrown us nitpickers a bone and put an iris on midway. Then have the Wraith hack in and open it. There would have been a bunch of guards, but the Wraith would have killed them all. Dr. Lee would have activated the self destruct, but the Wraith would have hacked it and deactivated it. And they would have beaten an IDC out of Kavanaugh and that's how they got in the milky way, or they would just beat him for good measure. Walter would have closed the blasted doors even though it wouldn't do any good.

Vala_M
February 16th, 2008, 06:21 PM
I'm the first one to discover that. I in fact posted that earlier.

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=7741223#post7741223

Vala,

Dobberman
February 16th, 2008, 07:31 PM
I noticed it as soon as Rodney said 'no need for an iris or shield', it stood out like a sore thumb cause a) he never said that and b) there was an iris on the computer screen in adrift, and it bugged me for the whole episode cause the whole plot was based on it..

Kribby
February 16th, 2008, 07:36 PM
I think the Wraith were equally stupid.


2. What were the Wraith hoping to do on Earth? gather intel? If Todd did indeed give them intel, he should have told them the base was underground and that getting out would not be possible.




The lead Wraith said they were establishing a 'Beachhead' but I didn't really get what it meant.

Edit:
Okay, I wiki'd it. So... they had a plan... remember the part of the episode when the wraith was talking to Sheppard and McKay through the camera thingy.

Beachhead is a military term used to describe the line created when a unit (by sea) reaches a beach, and begins to defend that area of beach, while other reinforcements (it is hoped) help out, until a unit large enough to begin advancing has arrived.

morjana
February 16th, 2008, 08:01 PM
Regarding the “previously on” teaser for Midway from season three’s episode, “The Return, Part 1,” NEW Rodney dialogue is included. The line, “The program is completely secure, no need for a shield or an iris” was not in the broadcast episode of “The Return, Part 1,” and if you listen closely, you can hear the drop-off in the sound that possibly indicates the dialogue was edited to include this line.

Somewhat similar to what happened in the fifth season Stargate SG-1 episode, “The Sentinel,” where new video was filmed to show Grieves and Kershaw being taken prisoner at the end of season three’s episode, “Shades of Grey.”

nx01a
February 16th, 2008, 08:48 PM
I think that earth and atlantis showed some almost goa'uld like stupidity and overconfidance here
I believe you mean 'almost Ancient'.;)

Xaeden
February 17th, 2008, 06:51 AM
I disagree. In that instance the concern was that the Asurans would crack it. They are much smarter than the Wraith. THe only reason the Wraith were able to do it was because they now found out about Midway. Yes they were overconfident but that is a common flaw in the Military. They truly felt they were secure.

Basically what I wrote agreed with what you're saying here. I agree that the military had reason to believe they were secure based on Mckay's assurances and the belief that Midway could not be gotten to without first getting sensitive data from Atlantis. I'm blaming Mckay, not the military.


Todd was properly watched. I think it is possible that he didn't willingly give the information up. He is a Wraith but I think he knows that his friendship with us is worth the price of not revealing that information. I think he was forced to reveal that info.

He wasn't apparently since he had the time to hack into the database and access secure information. Him giving away the information willingly or not is a non-issue as if someone was monitoring every action he made on that computer he wouldn't have had it to give away. They had marines guarding him properly, but they wouldn't have known if he was misusing the computer. Mckay needed to check up on him more (their computers should've been side to side at all times so he could glance over) and/or there should've been a scientist looking over Todd's shoulder at all times.


I disagree. In allies they truly didn't know what they would be up against in this case they did. If they had made it to the surface it would have been a huge problem.

In both situations they didn't know what they were up against. All they knew is what Todd knew and all Todd knew was that there was some sort of secure facility. For all they knew, there could've been a larger complex on the surface that surrounded the base so even if they got there they'd still have to fight through military forces or there could've been lockdown protocals (which there were). Regardless, getting the surface would be a huge problem for Earth for the simple reason that running through the woods chasing Wraith down in order to protect their citizens is not the ideal situation. It runs the risk of putting the Stargate program into the light of day and it puts civilians at risk. However, the Wraith are not in this to reveal the Stargate program to the public or to feed on a few people before they are killed. They had no chance of doing enough damage to make this whole exercise worthwhile as there was no chance that any form of victory would come out of this (they would always be killed and cut off, it was just a matter of how long until that happens and how many Humans died in the meantime). The only way they could achieve any form of victory is with ship support...


Wrong. By themselves yes we would have stopped them but once they got to the surface they could tag Earth and then call their fleet to come in which place we would be screwed.

What? Are you kidding? First no signal can reach the Pegasus galaxy from the Milky Way. It is too far even for Asgard technology. At best they "might" be able to reach the Midway station and forward something along, but they did not bring any technology towards that end. Such devices would be large and bulky and should've either came in with the first or second wave as time was critical since the longer you were active the greater chance there was that the SGC would be bombed. Second, the Wraith can find the location of Earth all they want. Without better hyperdrive technology they are still trapped in the Pegasus galaxy.


As I said all they'd need to do is get to the surface then it would have been game over.

Game over for the Wraith. It would've sucked to have to try to come up with cover story for these creatures running around and might not have even been possible. But the military would've hunted them down and blown up the base to prevent any further waves from coming through (the Midway station would've been next). After which they would've dug up the Stargate and moved it to a new facility. The Stargate program would be up and running again a short while later. There's just no way that the Wraith could've sent enough forces through to take and hold anything. Not only did they have no chance of sending that many through before their mode of transport was taken out but you don't go up against a superior military with ground forces alone. The whole thing seemed like a futile exercise as they had no goal other than establishing a beachhead and there was no way they could do that.

Major_Griff
February 17th, 2008, 07:54 AM
What they should have done was said that the macro has an encoded idc in it and when the wormhole connects, It shows the Atlantis idc and Lee opens the iris/shield. Or they could have had a gdo and entered an idc, but then they would have too explain how they got it and why the code was still valid, etc. It really doesn't bother me though, this ep was awesome and I can buy that the military trusted one of their top scientists when he said that the system was impenetrable. In fact, if they had not brought Todd to Midway and allowed him access to computers, the Wraith wouldn't even have known about the system.

My only iris related problem (also one I can get over) with the ep is that Teal'c didn't close the iris at the SCG which would have allowed more Wraith to come through to the SGC had Sheppard and the gang not stopped them.

*EDIT* Post 1100! Wooooo!

Mitchell82
February 17th, 2008, 09:59 AM
I'm the first one to discover that. I in fact posted that earlier.

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?p=7741223#post7741223

Vala,

Yeah quite a goof. They used a stock shot computer image.

JackHarkness_Hot
February 17th, 2008, 10:32 AM
I just wanted to add this, that if General Landry was at the SGC Control Room, he would have ordered the Iris to be closed thus the Wraith would have gone splat, however since Landry wasn't there, Walter decided to stare in awe at the rolling ball...

:mckay:


We all know that the midway gates should have had an iris and the GDO would have worked, regardless people saying it's not possible, it is cos it's sci-fi and secondly if it wasn't possible, then in the same account, the Midway wouldn't have got destroyed because it's "not possible" for the characters to be that stupid.. **looking at Kavanagh**

garhkal
February 17th, 2008, 01:35 PM
We have seen before though that the bridge can be hacked, in return part 2 mckay edited his own code to dial from a different gate in the milkyway!


It is one thing having the MAKER of the code hack it, and another to envision others doing the same when it is not common knowledge it even is out there.


Wrong. By themselves yes we would have stopped them but once they got to the surface they could tag Earth and then call their fleet to come in which place we would be screwed.

And how?? The tagging would work for those ships already in subspace scanning range, which i seriously doubt goes that far. Also unless they had ships nearby the tagging could easily be reversed.


It wouldn't have mattered if there was an Iris or not. Why? For the same reason that it didn't matter how secure McKay's dialling program was.

The Wraith didn't actually crack McKay's code. They went to a Stargate that they knew was part of the bridge (via Todd), and they waited there until Atlantis dialled Midway. Then they just connected a keylogger to the gate and waited while McKay's code activated the gate. Then they just pressed Ctrl + C. That's it. A six year old could have done it, and no cracking required. If a GDO signal had been sent through, they would have copied that along with any other signal that was sent through.


THey would still have had to crack the code, by changing the starting point. BUt i do agree, it would be much simpler using a copy n paste like they probabily did.


I just wanted to add this, that if General Landry was at the SGC Control Room, he would have ordered the Iris to be closed thus the Wraith would have gone splat, however since Landry wasn't there, Walter decided to stare in awe at the rolling ball...

That was kind of crummy that a seasoned vet of the SGC such as walter did not realise to shut the iris..

BubblingOverWithIdeas
February 17th, 2008, 06:30 PM
I know. The Midway Station was an idea that could have been explored much further. I am not happy that it got wiped out.

I think that the reason that they destryoed the Midway Station was because they needed to clear the set for the design of the Phoenix (new Battlecruiser)

Did you intend to hide that spoiler? Because you in fact bolded it. I've changed the bolding to spoiler text in the quote. This thread isn't marked as a spoiler thread, so there's a chance that people who didn't know that and didn't want to find out in advance, such as Chesnu1, will see it.


It looked like their job was to find some way to get out of the base.. Though were i the one in charge, i would have planeted a bomb of sorts in the gate room to blow the SGC up. That would be a big loss to the people of earth, AND give the wraith a leg up since we would no longer have the capacity to resupply so quickly now with it gone.

True, but then the Wraith wouldn't have a means of getting to Earth. They want to feed on the planet's population.

Avenger
February 17th, 2008, 10:27 PM
Regarding the “previously on” teaser for Midway from season three’s episode, “The Return, Part 1,” NEW Rodney dialogue is included. The line, “The program is completely secure, no need for a shield or an iris” was not in the broadcast episode of “The Return, Part 1,” and if you listen closely, you can hear the drop-off in the sound that possibly indicates the dialogue was edited to include this line.

Somewhat similar to what happened in the fifth season Stargate SG-1 episode, “The Sentinel,” where new video was filmed to show Grieves and Kershaw being taken prisoner at the end of season three’s episode, “Shades of Grey.”

Or the scene/dialog was deleted from the episode in the editing process.

inta
February 17th, 2008, 10:55 PM
I think a bigger blunder in overconfidence was by the wraith in not closing the sgc iris to prevent anyone from following them. they knew the sgc would be clear b/c of their stun bomb, the only possible resistance could come from pegasus/midway.

Also atlantis logically should've dialed earth directly to at least contact earth and let them know about the situation and keep the gate open to prevent the wraith from dialing to earth.

but nitpicking is silly.
episode wasn't totally great on sci fi, but it was still a great episode.

2ndgenerationalteran
February 17th, 2008, 11:09 PM
im not sure if this has been said before here but if there is an iris and it is raised until lowered and some one dials in when some one sends their GDO code through they have to step through without any confirmation that the iris has been lowered. And there is no hesitation if you are incontrol of the iris, your on the clock, if you hesitate the traveler will die, there is no communication telling them that they have to wait because the actions have already been set in motion. Adrift seems to be the plot hole ep where they have a 2 way conversation.

An-Alteran
February 17th, 2008, 11:23 PM
1-No Iris or shield could be used at midway because there would be no way of sending an IDC through before they entered the gate. The IDC and the people comming after would be sent at the same time.
The stargates were linked via a dialing macro. The people were sent to each gate along the trail seperately- there was not a direct connection.

2-The Wraith at the SG-C would never close the Iris behind them for three reasons:
a- They didn't know there was one.
b- They were expecting reinforcements not an assault force.
c- They would have needed to use someones hand-print.

HyperspaceDaemon
February 18th, 2008, 01:10 AM
1-No Iris or shield could be used at midway because there would be no way of sending an IDC through before they entered the gate. The IDC and the people comming after would be sent at the same time.
The stargates were linked via a dialing macro. The people were sent to each gate along the trail seperately- there was not a direct connection.


The episode intro clearly states that Rodney did not find it
*necessary* to have extra security measures , and that
all the other parties involved (IOA, army, etc) blindly believed
that without enforcing any common-sense security measures.
Any attempts to claim that it was not possible to put irises
on midway are pure speculation intended to diminish the
impact of the huge security hole.


Two facts remain :
- the humans were reckless by ignoring any common sense
security rules. Therefore they deserve to be invaded by the
Wraith : not a full-scale invasion, but 50-100 Wraiths feeding
and running freely on the streets would be nice .

- the stargates have a flawed design from the security
point of view : they don't allow the receiver to visualize
what's coming and filter potential risks (for example : it
would be very handy to not materialize the incoming
visitors immediately . And instead analyze who is
coming and maybe even delete their weapons from the
gate's buffers ... )


I fully agree that it's not logical for the Wraiths to close the iris
behind - the plan was to receive reinforcements.

Cree
February 18th, 2008, 06:39 AM
It is one thing having the MAKER of the code hack it, and another to envision others doing the same when it is not common knowledge it even is out there.


My point though, was that it is possible to hack it, it would just be harder for the wraith!

Vala_M
February 18th, 2008, 06:48 AM
Yeah quite a goof. They used a stock shot computer image.

It's not a stock shot, those were totally new dual gate dialing screens which have never been shown before.

Vala,

Argosy
February 18th, 2008, 07:59 AM
My main issue with the episode is that all the bonehead contrivances stand out like a sore thumb.

That retcon in the “previously on Stargate Atlantis” was bad enough, but then they had to go compound that with a bunch of other bonehead plays like letting us know that they have a ZPM (the discussion between Ronon & Shep) but not trying to establish contact with the SGC to warn them of eminent danger or asses their situation through direct dial then radio contact (i.e. has the SGC been compromised already).

One would think that they (team Atlantis) would want to do an end-run around to possibly get ahead of their enemy, & retake their HQ rather than follow up on the heels of your enemy.

There is a whole ass load of things that interfered with my ability to enjoy this episode, but I don’t have time to get into it right now.

Xaeden
February 18th, 2008, 09:16 AM
One would think that they (team Atlantis) would want to do an end-run around to possibly get ahead of their enemy, & retake their HQ rather than follow up on the heels of your enemy.

There is a whole ass load of things that interfered with my ability to enjoy this episode, but I don’t have time to get into it right now.

They sort of addressed this while on the Midway station - Sheppard couldn't imagine that the Wraith would be able to take the SGC by force as he had no concept of a weapon that could disable everyone in the base. Worst case scenario to him was a few Wraith get through, they get shot, and the Iris goes back up. Given what little they knew it was reasonable for them to assume that Earth would be fine and it was only the Midway station that was at risk.

gopher65
February 18th, 2008, 09:25 AM
Given what little they knew it was reasonable for them to assume that Earth would be fine and it was only the Midway station that was at risk.
Yes, because the wraith have shown time and time again how they are unable to defeat even the lamest foes. Remember how the wraith weren't able to defeat the replicators, twice? Remember how they lost to the Ancients? How they didn't beat an entire galaxy full of advanced interstellar humans (the Genii interstellar alliance, the Travellers. Heck, even the Athosans had ruins of a city that was more advanced than anything Earth has)? Obviously the wraith are no danger to Earth. No need to warn them.

Even if they were stupid enough to think that, they'd be risking the lives of the SFs in the gateroom for no reason. Are the members of the Atlantis command staff so callous and cold that they don't care if a few of their redshirts get eaten?

Dutch_Razor
February 18th, 2008, 11:50 AM
For an IDC:

What you do is this: Send through a group of travellers, with a special IDC. Have the last gate in the network programmed to scan the incoming matter stream for an IDC, then pause. Have a subspace transmitter on that gate. The gate activates the transmitter, and sends the IDC. If it receives a confirmation, then it unpauses the macro and continues forwarding it.

Or, better yet, get rid of the Iris completely. Have the gate on the receiving end scan the incoming matter stream, and then decide if you want it to reintegrate that stream. If you don't like what's coming through, press the big red delete key, like they almost did to Teal'c in that one episode. Presto, problem solved.

The gate can still be "hacked" if they could hack it like this I presume.

BubblingOverWithIdeas
February 18th, 2008, 01:47 PM
Game over for the Wraith. It would've sucked to have to try to come up with cover story for these creatures running around and might not have even been possible. But the military would've hunted them down and blown up the base to prevent any further waves from coming through (the Midway station would've been next). After which they would've dug up the Stargate and moved it to a new facility. The Stargate program would be up and running again a short while later. There's just no way that the Wraith could've sent enough forces through to take and hold anything. Not only did they have no chance of sending that many through before their mode of transport was taken out but you don't go up against a superior military with ground forces alone. The whole thing seemed like a futile exercise as they had no goal other than establishing a beachhead and there was no way they could do that.

You're right, they couldn't have established a beachhead. Perhaps they did not know this because they don't know our exact capabilities on Earth. They could, however, scatter in many directions and keep on the run, sticking to the woodlands and feeding on nearby humans before moving on. It would take the military a long time to hunt them down, but it still wouldn't be much of a strategy.

Xaeden
February 18th, 2008, 03:17 PM
Yes, because the wraith have shown time and time again how they are unable to defeat even the lamest foes. Remember how the wraith weren't able to defeat the replicators, twice? Remember how they lost to the Ancients?

They "beat" the Ancients and the Replicators 10,000 years ago. The Wraith of today do not begin to compare to their ancestors and they didn't defeat the replicators a second time. All they did was lend ship support so Atlantis could go through with its plan. They won some battles beforehand and put up a good fight, but they didn't beat them by any measure of the term.


How they didn't beat an entire galaxy full of advanced interstellar humans (the Genii interstellar alliance, the Travellers. Heck, even the Athosans had ruins of a city that was more advanced than anything Earth has)?

In the case of the Genii and the Athosians the Wraith had access to ships which they could use against them where as neither have shown any hints of one time having the capacity to fight an enemy that could bombard them from orbit or send thousands of darts down on them if they so desired. Not to mention unlimited soldiers (something they couldn't bring to Earth due to the Midway's limitations). As for the Travellers, there was never a reference to the Wraith beating them. All we were told is that they used ships to avoid contact with the Wraith and they occasionally get into scrapes where they lose a ship. All this means is that they do not have the resources to go to war with the Wraith and since they do not have the knowledge to build more ships they had no way to gaining more resources towards such an effort.


Obviously the wraith are no danger to Earth. No need to warn them.

Everything said above is pointless to this conversation anyway. Being able to win in one situation does not mean they are able to win in another and you can't really use one of these things as proof towards saying they need to be worried about every little plan the Wraith come up with. Every situation has to be analyzed individually - The SGC was heavily fortied and protected by an Iris. Short of tossing a bomb through and blowing it up, which gets them nowhere closer to getting food or crippling Earthling activity in the Pegasus galaxy, there was no known way that would allow the Wraith to do any real harm. It's easier to point out things that "should have" been done when you have all the facts though.


Even if they were stupid enough to think that, they'd be risking the lives of the SFs in the gateroom for no reason. Are the members of the Atlantis command staff so callous and cold that they don't care if a few of their redshirts get eaten?

Only the Wraith trying to invade the gateroom doesn't put anyone's life at risk as they use stunners. Had they tried to do it without the weapon a few Wraith would've gotten through, the Iris would've gone up on the rest, those few Wraith would've been killed, and anyone that was hit with Wraith weapon fire would've later woken up in medical.

gopher65
February 18th, 2008, 09:35 PM
My point wasn't that the Wraith won with ships, or reprogramming or whatever, it was that they were able to develop strategies to beat enemies that were superior to them. Given that Wraith don't die naturally, it is entirely possible that the same Wraith that created the solutions to those problems are still alive today.

If you were faced with a clever enemy, would you simply assume that they were using the worst possible tactic, with no regard to the possibility that your enemy has half a brain? I certainly wouldn't, and it bothers me that the characters on Stargate are that arrogant.

Xaeden
February 19th, 2008, 11:19 AM
My point wasn't that the Wraith won with ships, or reprogramming or whatever, it was that they were able to develop strategies to beat enemies that were superior to them. Given that Wraith don't die naturally, it is entirely possible that the same Wraith that created the solutions to those problems are still alive today.

But that's the thing. The Wraith have very limited strategies and depend heavily this bug mentality of just swarming your foe with everything you have. They have some brilliant ideas, but they're always shortsighted.

With the Ancients it was brilliant of them to develop cloning technology and use captured ZPMs to achieve this. But then they just flooded them with everything they had, not thinking that this effort would heavily tax their food supply to the point where their own actions were a threat to their continued existence in the long term.

With the Replicators it was brilliant of them to develop a virus to deactive their attack code. However, then they just ignored them and went back to their business. They may not have been able to push an attack against their homeworld or even known where it was, but they had 10,000 years to prepare for their possible return. Instead they were too concerned with fighting with each other for food.

With all the Human civilizations they have attacked, there was no brilliance involved. Just senseless overpowering of weaker civilizations.


If you were faced with a clever enemy, would you simply assume that they were using the worst possible tactic, with no regard to the possibility that your enemy has half a brain? I certainly wouldn't, and it bothers me that the characters on Stargate are that arrogant.

Then there's their dealings with Earth. This is a common pattern with them. I wouldn't even think they'd be stupid enough to go to Earth given that there was only one possible outcome for them if they did so. Stun weapon or no stun weapon they were going to die and so if I were to give them full credit, I would assume they were intelligent enough not to waste their time on such a futile scheme (I've mentioned this on some thread or another, but if I was them I would've used the Midway station to dial Atlantis and get them to drop their shield so I could use the stun weapon on them - pretty much any other plan of their's would've been an idiotic waste of time and resources). Regardless, the major point I differ from you on this is that I think if you're in a situation like that you have to quickly make a lot of decisions and cannot be held responsible after from not following through on every possibility. Right then Midway was the most important thing to them, as it should've been. They were right to completely focus on getting there before giving a second thought to anything else. The sooner they got there, the sooner they would have a chance to cut off anything the Wraith were up to and the more likely it would be that they could save the lives of those on Midway. The time to consider warning Earth would've been right after Sheppard and his strike force left Atlantis and we don't know what happened then as the episode did not show us the dialogue that went on between the people in the gateroom while they waited for Sheppard to complete his mission.

Argosy
February 19th, 2008, 11:23 AM
I certainly wouldn't, and it bothers me that the characters on Stargate are so poorly written.

The bolded portion in the above quote is a correction I made.

While it was correct the way it was written…I believe my correction rings a bit truer (hope you don’t mind gopher65;)).

Ed
February 19th, 2008, 12:40 PM
i think something even bigger will happen in terms of earth being arogant i think fighting the genii now would be an interesting reversal of roles to sg1s early years but usbeing the supper advanced race

YutheGreat
February 19th, 2008, 03:57 PM
McKay was way too overconfident believing no one could hack his code. If Midway was attack with a ship I doubt it even had one railgun to defend itself.

The.Road.Not.Taken
February 20th, 2008, 09:59 AM
McKay was way too overconfident believing no one could hack his code. If Midway was attack with a ship I doubt it even had one railgun to defend itself.

they wouldn't need any because as far as atlantis knows they have no enemies currently be able to reach or even locate the midway station