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View Full Version : They made the last two Wraith way too strong



JSPuddlejumper
February 15th, 2008, 02:58 PM
First, after Teal'C cleans out the Wraith in the SGC (20-30 Wraith easy), he is jumped from behind. The fight ensues and Ronon comes in.

Teal'C (who according to O'Neill is easily twice as strong as anybody in the SGC without the symbiote) get tossed aside like a rag doll. He hits his back against a steel barrier and momentarily semi-conscious, the Wraith starts to feed.

Meanwhile:
Then Ronon get's tossed aside by the other Wraith he is fighting. Finally Ronon pulls out a lead pipe and kills the Wraith.

Meanwhile, Teal'C is not so lucky and he is just being fed upon, until Ronon kills the Wraith will the pipe.

Previously Teal'C easily kills a Wraith (via neck break) in hand to hand combat. Ronon regularly kills Wraith in hand to hand combat.

What gives? It is not like they were fighting King Wraiths. Only conclusion I can draw: Dramatic effect, sci-fiction license.

Dark lord me
February 15th, 2008, 03:30 PM
Mabye the wraith had just fed

Bytor
February 15th, 2008, 04:04 PM
Have u seen the Wraith at the end of Sateda kick the crap out of Ronin?

Different Wraiths have different strength its the only thing i can come up with

jelgate
February 15th, 2008, 04:06 PM
Ronon has more experence fighting Wraith. He knows their figting tatics. If they were fighting Jaffa, Teal'c would most likely have an advantage

JSPuddlejumper
February 15th, 2008, 05:02 PM
(1) The Wraith in Sateda RULED a Hive! He was quite unique (go watch the episode again).

(2) He looked a lot different and far more menancing than any other male Wraith we ever seen! He was obviously the best Wraith fighter there is.

(3) So it was not surprising that he was owning Ronon in hand to hand combat due to FAR SUPERIOR STRENGTH. If Ronon took a lot of Vitamin Wraith juice like Ford...it may be a different story...or if the Ronon had a powerful G'ould symbiote!

But the last two Wraith that were beating up on Teal'C and Ronon were regular Wraith.

Teal'C has way more combat experience that Ronon, so there is no way lack of experience had anything to do with it. Hell, the other Wraith was beating Ronon until he got the pipe.

Previously Teal'C probably killed about 30 Wraith, Ronon about 15 (since he had leave with the human to contact the military). So killing Wraith was no problem to Teal'C (whom prior to this broke the neck of a Wraith in hand to hand combat). Another's day of work.

Conclusion: Dramatic license.

kirmit
February 15th, 2008, 05:07 PM
Ronon has more experence fighting Wraith. He knows their figting tatics. If they were fighting Jaffa, Teal'c would most likely have an advantage

Ronon was getting thrown about just as badly as Tealc.

JSPuddlejumper
February 15th, 2008, 05:34 PM
"Ronon was getting thrown about just as badly as Tealc."

Exactly.

Overall, this was my favorite episode of SGA, 11/10.

Just saying that they were over doing the last 2 Wraith.

I really hope they have a episode of Teal'C and Ronon vs whatever in Season 5. Teal'C was the perfect cross over from SG1.

Little_McKay
February 15th, 2008, 06:41 PM
Well I'd be inclined to say there are 2 reasons the wraith could have been stronger:

1) They'd just fed

2) How do we know that wraith aren't like humans in fighting ability? They may get the same training but maybe some excel like we all do in real life. I've had the same amount of training as my kung fu brother, who is taller, bigger built than me and - oh yeah - a guy, yet I can whup his ass. Some people have natural abilty, maybe these wraith were top of the class?

But yeah, since when is anything standard? Dramatic licence always come into play. Enemy ships become easier to destroy depending on how long the destroying part is encoporated into story. Same goes for fights - if there's time put aside for hand to hand combat - there's more of it. If it's a quick part of the story - they're easier to defeat.

Shan Bruce Lee
February 15th, 2008, 07:41 PM
Mabye the wraith had just fed

Yeah those were probably the ones that had just fed on the dead SGC members.

garhkal
February 15th, 2008, 09:18 PM
Ronon has more experence fighting Wraith. He knows their figting tatics. If they were fighting Jaffa, Teal'c would most likely have an advantage

Also Teal'c just got his ass slammed around a lot more compared to Ronon, as well as had a little life fed off of him ergo was not as strong. BUT i do wonder if his tretonin will help out with the life lossed..

RepliVeggie
February 15th, 2008, 10:47 PM
I wonder what would happen if a Wraith tried to fed upon a Goa'uld(not just the symbiot).

mattyg1987
February 15th, 2008, 11:36 PM
I wonder what would happen if a Wraith tried to fed upon a Goa'uld(not just the symbiot).

They would get a nice long lengthy snack then ;)

2ndgenerationalteran
February 16th, 2008, 12:19 AM
why is it so hard to comprehend some wraith would do better. yes they won well in hand to hand in some situations, but you cant really expect every single wraith to have the same stegnth. If you went to the gym and picked 2 random guys to fight they obviously would not be perfectly matched in stregnth. Just because they are clones that doesnt dictate there will be no superior fighter amongst them. And the wraith on base look liked they snacked on some guards and as we know a well nurished wraith is far more powerful than any fighter we have ever seen. And logically a wraith warrior should be stronger than the scientists so no plot hole except why tealc recovered from feeding so quickly.

Mvrck
February 16th, 2008, 12:31 AM
How about the fact that odds are the two with the best training/most patience/most experiance would wait for all the young hotshots to soften the "bad" guys up before they swooped in to finish them off.

The wraith are not above sacrificing one another, and you don't get to the top of the food chain, per say, by rushing in and getting yourself killed for your first meal.

jenks
February 16th, 2008, 02:27 AM
First, after Teal'C cleans out the Wraith in the SGC (20-30 Wraith easy), he is jumped from behind. The fight ensues and Ronon comes in.

Teal'C (who according to O'Neill is easily twice as strong as anybody in the SGC without the symbiote) get tossed aside like a rag doll. He hits his back against a steel barrier and momentarily semi-conscious, the Wraith starts to feed.

Meanwhile:
Then Ronon get's tossed aside by the other Wraith he is fighting. Finally Ronon pulls out a lead pipe and kills the Wraith.

Meanwhile, Teal'C is not so lucky and he is just being fed upon, until Ronon kills the Wraith will the pipe.

Previously Teal'C easily kills a Wraith (via neck break) in hand to hand combat. Ronon regularly kills Wraith in hand to hand combat.

What gives? It is not like they were fighting King Wraiths. Only conclusion I can draw: Dramatic effect, sci-fiction license.

I think by that point Teal'c and Ronon were nackered.

SGFerrit
February 16th, 2008, 02:52 AM
I think by that point Teal'c and Ronon were nackered.

Exactly. They were very tired after all they had been through, AND they were caught off guard.

dasNdanger
February 16th, 2008, 02:57 AM
I agree...Teal'c and Ronon were dead tired by that time - they didn't have any time to rest and regain their strength. On the other hand, the Wraith had been feeding as they went along, gaining strength and restoring their energy. Also, it had only JUST boiled down to hand-to-hand combat...before it was all about guns. Much harder to deal with the Wraith when you have to fight them with your bare hands.


das

Prior_of_the_Ori
February 16th, 2008, 03:21 AM
I dont get what the complaint is about... I mean I would think some strong Wraith that can actually beat up the Expedition members would be a good thing rather then they becoming cannon fodder just to be killed all the time easily. Some of the things I always liked about the Wraith were their resilience that they had like being shot and rising up again or their sheer strength when compared to Humans. They kind of dumbed them down since then but strong Wraith actually beating the crap out of Humans and others is a good thing I think rather then just see them killed so easily all the time.

dasNdanger
February 16th, 2008, 03:34 AM
I dont get what the complaint is about... I mean I would think some strong Wraith that can actually beat up the Expedition members would be a good thing rather then they becoming cannon fodder just to be killed all the time easily. Some of the things I always liked about the Wraith were their resilience that they had like being shot and rising up again or their sheer strength when compared to Humans. They kind of dumbed them down since then but strong Wraith actually beating the crap out of Humans and others is a good thing I think rather then just see them killed so easily all the time.

EXACTLY!!! The Wraith HAVE been dumbed down - they are killed WAY too easy, and not nearly as threatening as they were before. They've also lost some of their 'creepiness' - something I miss that was present in the first couple of seasons. That 'creepiness' was mainly achieved through great lighting and some rather bone-chilling performances by James Lafazanos - he did the whole menacing, creepy Wraith thing all TOO well (miss him lots). The Wraith in Sateda did a great job, too.

Todd, of course, is on a different level. Still, even in SoW - when Teyla was insisting on waiting for Sheppard - Todd started to show his more defiant - and menacing - Wraithy side, which was sweet to see.

But, for the most part, the Wraith are simply SGA's version of 'red shirts' - they show up only to get killed off. I was disappointed to see the two lead Wraith in Midway get killed off because they could have returned again and again to torment the humans. Instead, it's getting so that we know the Lanteans will wipe the floor with any Wraith they stumble upon, and THAT'S getting really lame. If they are not careful, they'll end up making the Wraith laughable, and not threatening at all.


das

Icarium
February 16th, 2008, 03:43 AM
They've also lost some of their 'creepiness' - something I miss that was present in the first couple of seasons. That 'creepiness' was mainly acheived through great lighting and some rather bone-chilling performances by James Lafazanos

das

The creepiness was also achieved by the Wraith being silent. They used their telepathic network much more. When the team was in the cell in Rising, the leader Wraith did not say a word and the drones knew which human he wants for interrogation. In Reunion (I think it was the episode) the leader comes, points his finger at a human and says 'That one'... not even half that scary as the one in Rising. I think in Midway they could also use more telepathy.

Icarium

dasNdanger
February 16th, 2008, 04:00 AM
The creepiness was also achieved by the Wraith being silent. They used their telepathic network much more. When the team was in the cell in Rising, the leader Wraith did not say a word and the drones knew which human he wants for interrogation. In Reunion (I think it was the episode) the leader comes, points his finger at a human and says 'That one'... not even half that scary as the one in Rising. I think in Midway they could also use more telepathy.

Icarium

I couldn't agree more! I mentioned this in another post here, not long after I joined the forum. Telepathic communication among the Wraith adds so much to their menacing presence, and I wish they'd shut some of them up!! (not Todd - we need him to continue telling his jokes... :p )

I think the writers have relied too heavily on explanitory dialogue (there's a term for this - can't think of what it is, though). In the past, characters like Rodney and Carson were used to explain what's happening in the story, but now they are using the Wraith to do it, too. I think there has to be a way to get around it so that - when Wraith are communicating with one another - they aren't so gosh darn chatty! And they really have to stop telling the humans what their plans are, too!!

Yeah - shut these guys up, and have them speak only when it will have real impact on the character's development and/or personality. The Wraith in Condemned, Steve, and Todd in Common Ground are all excellent examples of excellent Wraith speaking parts, ones that added so much to the characters, instead of detracting from them.


das

Icarium
February 16th, 2008, 04:47 AM
Don't you find it strange that they didn't send even one unmasked Wraith to Earth to command the attack? Were they so sure that the bomb had enough range to stun everybody nearby and that there's not going to be any resistance? Still, a commander would be useful.

Icarium

AGateFan
February 16th, 2008, 04:51 AM
They made all the wraith way too weak based on canon. I thought they established back in S1 that a wraith that just recently fed was nearly invincible. I guess that wouldnt have worked with the plot.

Oh and the pipe. Ronan can rip a pipe off a wall, that easily? I pipe that has presumably been maintained to be in good condition (not one in some rotting, falling down building)...it made me kind of laugh actually.

x303
February 16th, 2008, 05:07 AM
How old must Teal'c b now? Final episode of SG1 he lost bout 30+ years due to the time dialation and having to remain that way to pass Carter the application crystal.

Now a wraith has fed on him, although only for a few seconds but still

maybe they could do him a favour and capture a wraith to give some years back?! risky but fair.

JSPuddlejumper
February 16th, 2008, 05:16 AM
The masked Wraith are supposedly clones = exact same characteristics, including strength. So they took dramatic license to make the last fighting scene dramatic!

As for the Wraith, how are a handful of Wraith supposed to make a beach head?

These ain't the Ori after all. They are only G'ould knock offs.

x303
February 16th, 2008, 05:19 AM
The masked Wraith are supposedly clones = exact same characteristics, including strength. So they took dramatic license to make the last fighting scene dramatic!

As for the Wraith, how are a handful of Wraith supposed to make a beach head?

These ain't the Ori after all. They are only G'ould knock offs.

i think the point was they used that device to knock everyone out take over midway and start sending wraith and ppl thru. did kinda fall apart tho wen teal'c n ronan came in and kicked all their asses and sheppard and McKay regaining control of midway even if it did end up blowin up!

kymeric
February 16th, 2008, 08:34 AM
All i know is that killing an alien by shoving a pipe thru their chest is freaking sweet.

Ltcolshepjumper
February 16th, 2008, 09:46 AM
The masked Wraith are supposedly clones = exact same characteristics, including strength. So they took dramatic license to make the last fighting scene dramatic!

As for the Wraith, how are a handful of Wraith supposed to make a beach head?

These ain't the Ori after all. They are only G'ould knock offs.

They were counting on mroe to go through. As well, If they were able to capture the SGC then they could easily discover some technology stored away in the SGC. The only thing they would need then would be better hyperdrives to reach Earth by ship. Would make for a good movie.

TheLastSunset
February 16th, 2008, 01:08 PM
Remember from Rising, the team is trapped in the cell, someone comes to stand up to Wraith and that Wraith throws him against the wall just like Teal'c got thrown.

Avenger
February 16th, 2008, 01:09 PM
Teal'C had been out fighting on his own for some time. More fighting time plus fighting alone means he is likely to be far more tired than Ronon. Also factor in that Teal'C is older (even when his age is adjusted to human age). Ronon has been fighting Wraith for a very long time, including his time a runner and in the war while in the military. Experience certainly does count for something. The Wraith were also feeding as they went along, making them stronger.

And most importantly, most of the Wraith killing that Teal'C and Ronon had done up to that point was with machine guns. That's not the same as hand to hand combat. Just want to make sure that's clear, because some folks don't seem to get that.

SoulReaver
February 16th, 2008, 11:55 PM
First, after Teal'C cleans out the Wraith in the SGC (20-30 Wraith easy), he is jumped from behind. The fight ensues and Ronon comes in.

Teal'C (who according to O'Neill is easily twice as strong as anybody in the SGC without the symbiote) get tossed aside like a rag doll. He hits his back against a steel barrier and momentarily semi-conscious, the Wraith starts to feed.

Meanwhile:
Then Ronon get's tossed aside by the other Wraith he is fighting. Finally Ronon pulls out a lead pipe and kills the Wraith.

Meanwhile, Teal'C is not so lucky and he is just being fed upon, until Ronon kills the Wraith will the pipe.

Previously Teal'C easily kills a Wraith (via neck break) in hand to hand combat. Ronon regularly kills Wraith in hand to hand combat.

What gives? It is not like they were fighting King Wraiths. Only conclusion I can draw: Dramatic effect, sci-fiction license.nothing surprising there, just regular wraith warriors. the wraith do have superhuman strength (something even Tealc no longer has :()

Lord batchi ball
February 17th, 2008, 07:15 AM
I think by that point Teal'c and Ronon were nackered.

Yes I was just thinking that. They just got done killing lots of Wraith! I know I would be tired.

wise one
February 17th, 2008, 08:45 AM
hand to hand combat is very differnet than pulling a trigger on a machine gun

season1 sheppard had truoble fighting that 10,000 year old wraith with last ancient satilite in orbit which shot the cruiser

that wraith threw into the air

JSPuddlejumper
February 17th, 2008, 09:06 AM
I suppose we can assume they just fed = short burst of super strength and regeneration ability.

That 10,000 year old Wraith was very unique as well, having fed on entire crew of the Wraith Cruiser and other humans and even Ancients. Unique Wraith, similar to the King Wraith in Sateda.

John emptied at least 2 clips of p-90 fire into it and it would not die. A drone was needed to kill it!

garhkal
February 17th, 2008, 01:08 PM
The masked Wraith are supposedly clones = exact same characteristics, including strength. So they took dramatic license to make the last fighting scene dramatic!

As for the Wraith, how are a handful of Wraith supposed to make a beach head?

These ain't the Ori after all. They are only G'ould knock offs.

They start out that way, but their experiences in the field changes that. Imagine ifyou had a batch of 12. Over the years 9 die off, leaving 3. Of those 3, one has fed on 78 people, one 54 and one 103. THe latter one will invariably be stronger and better than the other 2.

tranquility
February 17th, 2008, 02:36 PM
It's easily understandable, by that point, Teal'c and Ronon has been fighting all day and getting fatigued.

YutheGreat
February 21st, 2008, 03:34 PM
Ultimately I think it was for dramatic effect and so that Ronon could save Teal'c in the same manner that Teal'c saved Ronon earlier in the episode.

I think it will be explained as the Wraith had been feeding on many marines before they encountered Teal'c and Ronon.

Besides we have been seeing Wraith push around marines in previous episode yet in some they don't get to show their super strenght.

Since it was brought up. How did that King Wraith take command of the hive?
He was like a cross between the SCientist type and the Warrior type. We don't see Wraith like him around everyday.

Maybe he was a scientist on roids.

JSPuddlejumper
February 21st, 2008, 04:31 PM
IMO:


The King Wraith was not a regular clone Wraith, but one that was birthed naturally. After many 1000's of years and feeding, it evolved, proved itself a superior warrior, and rose up the ranks, eventually taking command.

Avenger
February 21st, 2008, 10:51 PM
Ultimately I think it was for dramatic effect and so that Ronon could save Teal'c in the same manner that Teal'c saved Ronon earlier in the episode.

Well, yeah, from a dramatic standpoint, that's what they were going for.

Prior_of_the_Ori
February 22nd, 2008, 01:21 AM
IMO:


The King Wraith was not a regular clone Wraith, but one that was birthed naturally. After many 1000's of years and feeding, it evolved, proved itself a superior warrior, and rose up the ranks, eventually taking command.

Seems like a logical explanation.

squeakytoad
February 24th, 2008, 06:42 PM
I beg to differ with the thread post.


They made all the other Wraith too weak. This is getting ridiculous. The Wraith are becoming the Jaffa (who also started out really strong and were progressively transformed into Stormtroopers).
Especially when a Wraith is feeding, they're nearly impossible to kill. You couldn't just give him a single stab and expect him to die. You'd have to knock out his feeding source first.
Also, we find dead bodies throughout this entire episode. Most of them have been fed upon. I was expecting some seriously beefed Wraith, but here they are all dying in a few shots.
Especially the Wraith lord that wrestled with Sheppard. Maybe he was just a runt, but he lost pretty easily, especially considering he had just fed that hour.

SoulReaver
February 26th, 2008, 10:37 PM
heh, this reminds me how the jaffa got progressively weaker as the series went on, even as early as s7 when the show was at its peak - in homecoming for instance, watching a bunch of humans wrestle with jaffas & in some instances even getting the upper hand (and those weren't even jaffas on tretonin - these served Anubis, so each had his snake)
each one of those jaffas could've easily tossed their opponents like ragdolls, or simply snapped their necks. sure the series would've ended, but there were other ways to avoid that scenario, for example by having the humans prevail not in hand-to-hand, but ranged combat (gunfight), etc.