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dasNdanger
February 5th, 2008, 01:23 PM
I am very pleased with the sort of development writers have given Wraith characters like Michael, and Todd. But even in the earlier seasons, we saw a wide range of excellent examples of Wraith 'personality' - from Steve's dignity and conceit, to the Defiant One's savagery, to the high-minded, high-living Wraith in Condemned. These, along with well-developed characters like Todd and Michael, have made the Wraith the most intriguing characters in the show. Well, at least for me.

I fear that TPTB feel the Wraith are expendable, and will throw them away in the next season or two in favor of a new enemy. I hope that doesn't happen, for in the Wraith we have a wonderful study of conflict - and conflict is the driving force behind all of your best fictional characters.

Personally, I love the conflict that exists in the Wraith, and would hope to see further exploration of it. They maintain a self-controlled, somewhat dignified image, while inside struggle with a constant hunger. Perhaps Steve - as he appeared to meditate while in captivity - gave us a glimpse of how Wraith deal with their hunger and overall frustration when unable to freely feed. It would be interesting to see more of this...to see how Wraith fight any display of weakness when they are hungry...until they are unable to fight it any longer. We've seen a little of this with Todd and Elia, but I could certainly handle more.

There is also the beautiful contrast in them between their refined human traits and their animalistic Wraith cravings and behavior. Again, a very interesting study - the inner 'animal/man' struggle that works so well in the development of a character. The Wraith do not struggle with the 'animal' - or Wraith - inside, instead they embrace it as their nature, their identity. No, their struggle is against what they perceive to be the human weaknesses. Since it has not been fully explored, it would be nice to see some of this turned around - to see some Wraith (not altered ones like Michael) embrace their humanity, and work on from there. Todd, in part, has shown us this, but we still are not aware of his true intentions, and for the most part, he still seems quite pleased - and proud - to be Wraith.

I think we've only seen the tip of the Wraith iceberg, and my hope is to see much, much more. I imagine so many possibilities for these characters, and hope they will continue to be developed with care in the show. I think some fans can now see them as something other than 'evil'. True, some individual Wraith may have an evil streak, but as a whole the Wraith are only seeking to satisfy their hunger. They are condemned solely upon what they are at birth, and nothing else, even before they feed upon their first human meal. It is something truly out of their control. It is - their nature.

das

Degilwen
February 5th, 2008, 01:58 PM
Yes more Wraith :D But I have read that the human kill Wraith.... :( (Ronon and this sholvah kill Wraith)

nx01a
February 5th, 2008, 02:20 PM
I think some fans can now see them as something other than 'evil'. True, some individual Wraith may have an evil streak, but as a whole the Wraith are only seeking to satisfy their hunger. They are condemned solely upon what they are at birth, and nothing else, even before they feed upon their first human meal. It is something truly out of their control. It is - their nature.

And they're also searching for a means to ascend, hmm? :wraithanime11:
Or maybe a Wraith that only feeds on the evil? Like a vampire Batman?:P

It would be great to see more things Wraith, more political intrigue that doesn't always boil down to 'must form alliance with Atlantis'.

dasNdanger
February 5th, 2008, 02:37 PM
And they're also searching for a means to ascend, hmm? :wraithanime11:

This would work. I have thought about the Wraith ascending, and think it's a great idea...as long as they still exist in some way in the show.


Or maybe a Wraith that only feeds on the evil? Like a vampire Batman?:P

LOL...yeah. Not sure that would work - thing is, Wraith need a continuous food source, and after a while, they'd run out of evil Wraith. So...I'd like to see them find some way of getting around the food problem, but NEVER lose their taste for humans, even if they eventually gain nutrition and sustenance from regular food.


It would be great to see more things Wraith, more political intrigue that doesn't always boil down to 'must form alliance with Atlantis'.

This is a good point. Although I like the brief alliance the humans and Wraith had, I wouldn't want that same thing all the time (unless a very small faction of Wraith allied themselves with the Lanteans on a regular basis). But I like the 'political intrigue' in Condemned - making deals with the Devil, as it were. Also, I'd like to see the Wraith have the upper hand in some of the political goings on - instead of being told by the Lanteans what to do, have it the other way around.

One thing I loved about the very first Wraith appearance was Teyla's comment that they 'have no need to explain themselves'. I would like a return to that...to see the Wraith TELL humans what is going to happen (when on friendly terms), without explanation, instead of it being the other way around. It would be interesting to see how the Lanteans react to such a thing...taking orders from the 'enemy', even though he's your ally at the time.

Anyway...yeah - political intrigue without it just being about alliances...that would be good...both within the Wraith 'government', and perhaps between Wraith and other worlds.


das

nx01a
February 5th, 2008, 02:39 PM
Wraith need a continuous food source, and after a while, they'd run out of evil Wraith.
I meant evil humans. ;)
Like a planet's corporal punishment system.

dasNdanger
February 5th, 2008, 02:51 PM
I meant evil humans. ;)
Like a planet's corporal punishment system.

OH!! PLENTY of those to go around!!


das

Icarium
February 6th, 2008, 08:04 AM
I'd like some more development on Wraith way of thinking. I'd like to know if the Wraith ever looked for a different food source (we know they tried to make it more efficient) or tried to limit the size of their population so they didn't have to hibernate. I mean, they feed upon almost all the humans in the PG and then hibernate because there is not enough food. At the same time they prevent humans from development which slows the growth of human population (no advanced medicine etc) and create clone Wraiths. They, in fact, act against themselves and civil wars seem inevitable. Were there (or are) any Wraith that would think about the future, if yes - what they attempted to do? Or maybe they they like hibernating (or have to)? Why don't they kill the hibernated cousins so that there was more food for themselves?

I just want some stories from their point of view. I hope you know what I mean...;)

Icarium

Degilwen
February 6th, 2008, 10:21 AM
I want see more about the Culture and Social live in a Hive.
What the Wraith do and stuff like that and if they have new enemies...
I want see that the Wraith have a alliance between the humans and the Wraith...

Scyld
February 6th, 2008, 10:34 AM
They are condemned solely upon what they are at birth, and nothing else, even before they feed upon their first human meal. It is something truly out of their control. It is - their nature.

das

Once upon a time, a Scorpion walked the banks of a river, wondering how to get to the other side. Suddenly, a Fox came out of the woods and walked up to the water's edge.

"Fox," the Scorpion said, "We both want to get to the other side. Carry me on your back and we can both make it."

"No," the Fox replied, "You'll sting me."

"I won't sting you," the Scorpion replied, "If I did, then we would both drown."

So the Fox picked up the Scorpion and put him on his back and began swimming across the river. Halfway across, Scorpion stung him. Fox looked up at Scorpion and as he began to sink, poison flowing through his veins, he asked, "Why did you do that? Now we are both going to die."

The Scorpion replied, "I'm sorry. It's my nature."

The point being, while I might not call Wraith evil, I am still comfortable destroying them. Sure, they're sentient life forms. But they're also predators whose only food is my species. That is not the sort of thing you can make peace with. Ever.

A Wraith is actually far worse than a murderer. A murderer typically does what he does for reasons of passion. For the sake of hatred, or rage, or for some other pathetic emotional reason. The murderer understands the value of life, because he empowers himself in the profane act of taking it. The Wraith, on the other hand, do what they do for the worst possible reasons they could possibly do them: practical reasons. They kill in order to nourish their bodies.
This makes what they do unforgivable.

dasNdanger
February 6th, 2008, 11:06 AM
I'd like some more development on Wraith way of thinking. I'd like to know if the Wraith ever looked for a different food source (we know they tried to make it more efficient) or tried to limit the size of their population so they didn't have to hibernate. I mean, they feed upon almost all the humans in the PG and then hibernate because there is not enough food. At the same time they prevent humans from development which slows the growth of human population (no advanced medicine etc) and create clone Wraiths. They, in fact, act against themselves and civil wars seem inevitable. Were there (or are) any Wraith that would think about the future, if yes - what they attempted to do? Or maybe they they like hibernating (or have to)? Why don't they kill the hibernated cousins so that there was more food for themselves?

I just want some stories from their point of view. I hope you know what I mean...;)

Icarium

Yes, I know exactly what you mean, and I agree. It would be very nice to see inside their lives a bit more...

I'd like to see what sort of 'spirituality' - if any - they have. We have seen Steve meditating, we know they have 'worshippers' - but do they, themselves, have any sort of spirituality.

Also would like to see Wraith interacting on a social level. Do they have any sort of recreation/relaxation/entertainment?


I want see more about the Culture and Social live in a Hive.
What the Wraith do and stuff like that and if they have new enemies...
I want see that the Wraith have a alliance between the humans and the Wraith...

Again - yes - stuff like that would all be good. I'd like to see more positive interaction with humans that doesn't lead to their death at the end.


....The Scorpion replied, "I'm sorry. It's my nature."

The point being, while I might not call Wraith evil, I am still comfortable destroying them. Sure, they're sentient life forms. But they're also predators whose only food is my species. That is not the sort of thing you can make peace with. Ever.

A Wraith is actually far worse than a murderer. A murderer typically does what he does for reasons of passion. For the sake of hatred, or rage, or for some other pathetic emotional reason. The murderer understands the value of life, because he empowers himself in the profane act of taking it. The Wraith, on the other hand, do what they do for the worst possible reasons they could possibly do them: practical reasons. They kill in order to nourish their bodies.
This makes what they do unforgivable.


I totally disagree. A murderer kills for the sake of killing. The Wraith kill in order to survive - just like humans kill cows, and pigs, and chickens, and fish, to survive. If the Wraith could eat ANYTHING, they would...they would have no reason to feed on humans. But they can't just eat anything...as Elia's case proved. So, the Wraith's only 'sin' is that they are hungry. Have you ever been hungry? Have you ever starved? You do not go without food, do you? I think not. YOU eat. We ALL eat.

This is not a crime they are committing. They do not kill (as a rule) out of hate or anger. They kill to eat, and to defend themselves. True, some may kill for sport, some - perhaps - for the thrill of it - but for the most part the Wraith kill simply to eat. As far as we know, the Wraith cannot help what they are. They can only survive on one food source - so how is that unforgivable?!!

And a murderer has NO value of human life. If he had, he would not kill. The Wraith, at least, understand the value of human life by allowing some to remain alive, to repopulate the planets they cull. They also know that without living humans around, they die. They had enough appreciation for human life to help destroy the replicators. This shows a certain value for human life on the part of the Wraith - something the Ancients and replicators failed to have.

Maybe you should think of the Wraith - and their situation - as an ILLNESS. Just like a diabetic cannot metabolize sugar, and must eat a special diet, or get sick and die, the Wraith canNOT metabolize any other food but human life force. Do you kill off an entire species because they have an 'illness', or do you try to find a cure??

The most logical thing is to find a 'cure'. Humans have tried - but maybe they need to work WITH the Wraith, instead of against them, to find the ultimate cure.


das

Scyld
February 6th, 2008, 11:37 AM
The Wraith kill in order to survive - just like humans kill cows, and pigs, and chickens, and fish, to survive... [snip] ...the Wraith's only 'sin' is that they are hungry. Have you ever been hungry? Have you ever starved? You do not go without food, do you? I think not. YOU eat. We ALL eat.

Sure, I've starved. For forty days, no less. It was an interesting experience. I am not denying that the wraith are killing in order to sustain their bodies. That is in fact precisely my objection to their act. I can forgive a man who murders someone because he is caught up in the blind rage of passion. I cannot forgive a creature that murders someone because it needs to sustain its body. A murderer may repent of his actions, serve his debt to society, and become a free man again. A being which must murder in order to live can never do that. He will always need to kill again, sooner or later. Crimes can be forgiven. Nature cannot.


This is not a crime they are committing. They do not kill (as a rule) out of hate or anger. They kill to eat, and to defend themselves. True, some may kill for sport, some - perhaps - for the thrill of it - but for the most part the Wraith kill simply to eat. As far as we know, the Wraith cannot help what they are. They can only survive on one food source - so how is that unforgivable?!!

Aside from the reasons already given, there is also the simple and imminently rational reason that their food source is me.


Maybe you should think of the Wraith - and their situation - as an ILLNESS. Just like a diabetic cannot metabolize sugar, and must eat a special diet, or get sick and die, the Wraith canNOT metabolize any other food but human life force. Do you kill off an entire species because they have an 'illness', or do you try to find a cure?? The most logical thing is to find a 'cure'.

Being a Wraith is not a disease. They are their own species. They are not human, and as Michael showed, they can never truly be human. They are an apex predator whose only food source is humanity. Therefore, the logical solution is to kill them all. All talk of 'sustainable Wraith levels' and the ecosystem of the Pegasus Galaxy falls to nothing in the face of human suffering. Again, these are apex predators whose food source is us. Therefore, as humans, we must either destroy this threat to our species, or forever live as their herd animals.

dasNdanger
February 6th, 2008, 11:58 AM
Sure, I've starved. For forty days, no less. It was an interesting experience. I am not denying that the wraith are killing in order to sustain their bodies. That is in fact precisely my objection to their act. I can forgive a man who murders someone because he is caught up in the blind rage of passion. I cannot forgive a creature that murders someone because it needs to sustain its body. A murderer may repent of his actions, serve his debt to society, and become a free man again. A being which must murder in order to live can never do that. He will always need to kill again, sooner or later. Crimes can be forgiven. Nature cannot.

Oh, that makes absolutely no sense at all. A murderer has a CHOICE - he can choose to kill, or not to. Wraith have NO CHOICE...they have no control over their nature. I can easily forgive Wraith for what they are, much more than I can forgive a cold-blooded murderer who kills simply for the sake of killing.


Aside from the reasons already given, there is also the simple and imminently rational reason that their food source is me.

So - you would kill Wraith to sustain YOUR life? Why is it so wrong for them to do likewise? You have a double standard. "Okay for ME to do it, but NOT for them."


Being a Wraith is not a disease.

Didn't say THEY were a disease, said it was like they had a disease - and hopefully, that 'disease' (inability to metabolize normal food) can be cured.


They are their own species. They are not human, and as Michael showed, they can never truly be human.

No one has asked them to be human (besides humans).


They are an apex predator whose only food source is humanity. Therefore, the logical solution is to kill them all. All talk of 'sustainable Wraith levels' and the ecosystem of the Pegasus Galaxy falls to nothing in the face of human suffering. Again, these are apex predators whose food source is us. Therefore, as humans, we must either destroy this threat to our species, or forever live as their herd animals.

Okay - so let's kill all predators then - Lions, tigers, sharks - all have fed on humans. We would never think of it, and those creatures are not even part human, which the Wraith are.

Honestly, it just sounds like - to me - you hate the characters and that hatred has blinded you to their plight. In other words, you seem to lack the empathy needed to understand what they are going through. Empathy is the first thing needed for a solution to be found - a solution that does NOT include extermination. In some ways, I believe the writers COULD be headed this way. Already we have seen Sheppard go from a COLD BLOODED MURDERER when he shot Bob to death for no reason (even Ford said he had gone too far), to a man who let a Wraith go after giving Larrin back the life he had taken. In the past, Sheppard would have shot the Wraith dead - but this time, he let him go. So, I have hopes that TPTB also see the need to show Wraith a little empathy, and hopefully that empathy will inspire the writers to find a solution to the Wraith's dietary problems.

However - even if they do - and even if the Wraith find a way to eat normal food and live in peace with humans, I feel you, and others, will still not be happy unless all the Wraith are killed off.

Perhaps, you just don't like the way they look...

das

Icarium
February 6th, 2008, 12:19 PM
I can forgive a man who murders someone because he is caught up in the blind rage of passion.

What with those who do not kill 'in the blind rage of passion' but with cold blood? Are they better than the Wraith? I don't think so...


I cannot forgive a creature that murders someone because it needs to sustain its body.

Are you a vegetarian?


A murderer may repent of his actions, serve his debt to society, and become a free man again.

A person who kills in the blind rage of passion is never free again, because of his conscience. A cold-blooded murderer can be free again, in his mind. He doesn't care... Serve his debt? Taking soebody's life is a debt that cannot be paid back.

Icarium

Scyld
February 6th, 2008, 12:27 PM
Oh, that makes absolutely no sense at all. A murderer has a CHOICE - he can choose to kill, or not to. Wraith have NO CHOICE...they have no control over their nature. I can easily forgive Wraith for what they are, much more than I can forgive a cold-blooded murderer who kills simply for the sake of killing.

Yes, that's exactly right. The Murderer has a choice, and can also choose otherwise. A Wraith cannot choose to do otherwise, and therefore cannot be forgiven; it is not a matter of forgiveness at all, but of survival. There is no moral component to a Wraith's actions.


So - you would kill Wraith to sustain YOUR life?

To sustain my life? Not necessarily. To save the lives of others? Absolutely yes. Remember, Wraith are effectively immortal as long as their cells are kept properly nourished. When you experience a moral dilemma at the thought of killing them, think about the untold numbers of human lives necessary to sustain their existence.

Wraith must kill us to live. How often? Well, we don't know exactly. We've seen them go months without food, but it appears they like to feed more often than that. Still, for the sake of this illustration, let's assume that they need to feed at least once per month. This means that every year a wraith lives requires that it kill twelve of us unless it is in hibernation. How many years has it been since the Ancients left the Pegasus Galaxy? Ten thousand or so? If this is the case, then using the 'one feeding per month' projection, each of those watchers who were left awake to tend to those that slept required the deaths of 120,000 human beings in order to continue their lives. Given another 10,000 years, and each of those Wraith, if they are not otherwise killed, will take another 120,000 human lives. Kill that Wraith now, and those are 120,000 people it won't be able to murder over the course of the next 10,000 years.


Okay - so let's kill all predators then - Lions, tigers, sharks - all have fed on humans. We would never think of it, and those creatures are not even part human, which the Wraith are.

Yes, but lions, tigers, and sharks do not need to feed on human beings, and indeed are not even particularly interested in doing so. They generally only eat people if there is something drastically wrong. The Wraith food source is us. Period. They have no other.


Honestly, it just sounds like - to me - you hate the characters and that hatred has blinded you to their plight. In other words, you seem to lack the empathy needed to understand what they are going through. Empathy is the first thing needed for a solution to be found - a solution that does NOT include extermination.

I don't hate the wraith at all. There would be no point in hating them. Nor do I think they are evil, any more than I think that a tiger which eats a human being is evil. I actually think they're kind of cool. But, again, we are their food source. I may not think a tiger which has acquired a taste for human beings is evil, but I will still insist that it be put down in order to prevent it from eating more human beings.


So, I have hopes that TPTB also see the need to show Wraith a little empathy, and hopefully that empathy will inspire the writers to find a solution to the Wraith's dietary problems.

Lacking some applied phlebotinium combined with the judicious application of hand-waving, however, we shall have to content ourselves with things which are actually possible without the use of deus ex machina.

As the good David Langford once said as a corollary to Arthur C. Clark's third law, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is completely indistinguishable from a completely ad-hoc plot device."

Icarium
February 6th, 2008, 12:41 PM
The Murderer has a choice, and can also choose otherwise.

Those who have a choice and still choose to kill an innocent person cannot be forgiven.
I do not claim that the Wraith are innocent but we have no right to wipe out an entire race only because of its eating habits. We're not gods...

Icarium

Platschu
February 6th, 2008, 12:50 PM
Some unanswered Wraith related queston:

1. What do they think about the Iratus bugs and the Unas type Wraiths (see Elia or transformed Sheppard)?

2. How, where and how long did the Wraith evolution begin?

3. What society do the Wraith have? Are there different classes?

4. How could they build hives?

5. Do they believe in ascension or God or whatever?

6. Why do they need human followers and worshipers?

etc.

Scyld
February 6th, 2008, 12:54 PM
Those who have a choice and still choose to kill an innocent person cannot be forgiven.
I do not claim that the Wraith are innocent but we have no right to wipe out an entire race only because of its eating habits. We're not gods...

Icarium

I dunno, I feel pretty godlike.

Seriously, I don't understand the dilemma here. They eat us. They have no other food source. Therefore, they must be destroyed. Carthago delenda est, as it were. It's not about whether they are evil or not. They could be fine, upstanding and moral creatures, but they still eat people. They could be downright philosophical about it, but they still eat us.

Lacking large amounts of Applied Phlebotinium or some convenient Green Rocks, we therefore have two options:
1 - Allow them to continue to eat people
2 - Destroy them

I pick option number two.

dasNdanger
February 6th, 2008, 01:04 PM
I dunno, I feel pretty godlike.

That explains a lot. ;)


Seriously, I don't understand the dilemma here. They eat us. They have no other food source. Therefore, they must be destroyed. Carthago delenda est, as it were. It's not about whether they are evil or not. They could be fine, upstanding and moral creatures, but they still eat people. They could be downright philosophical about it, but they still eat us.

Lacking large amounts of Applied Phlebotinium or some convenient Green Rocks, we therefore have two options:
1 - Allow them to continue to eat people
2 - Destroy them

I pick option number two.

So - finding a way for the Wraith to metabolize normal food is NOT an option? I think it is the BEST option...and if humans devote their lives to find cures for cancer, and AIDS, and other life-threatening problems, why not spend their lives finding a way for the Wraith to eat normal food, and thus save BOTH species?

das

Icarium
February 6th, 2008, 01:07 PM
Lacking large amounts of Applied Phlebotinium or some convenient Green Rocks, we therefore have two options:
1 - Allow them to continue to eat people
2 - Destroy them

When you have two options, choose a third one. ;) There must be another way... We don't want the show to be predictable, do we?

Icarium

Scyld
February 6th, 2008, 01:20 PM
So - finding a way for the Wraith to metabolize normal food is NOT an option? I think it is the BEST option...and if humans devote their lives to find cures for cancer, and AIDS, and other life-threatening problems, why not spend their lives finding a way for the Wraith to eat normal food, and thus save BOTH species?

das

Such a solution is beyond the bounds of possibility, again, lacking a convenient plot device. You can't just swoop in and alter the essential nature of a species without inverted tachyon beams, maybe a multi-phagic retrovirus or two, a neutrino pulse-wave (double points if at some point the characters are required to reverse its polarity), and, of course, a rerouting of the flux capacitor through the forward deflector array.

Furthermore, it is somewhat amusing to note that the Wraith themselves would likely be offended at the very thought of the human-cattle trying to 'domesticate' them. O_o

WereWraith06
February 6th, 2008, 01:23 PM
Wraith must kill us to live. How often? Well, we don't know exactly. We've seen them go months without food, but it appears they like to feed more often than that. Still, for the sake of this illustration, let's assume that they need to feed at least once per month. This means that every year a wraith lives requires that it kill twelve of us unless it is in hibernation. How many years has it been since the Ancients left the Pegasus Galaxy? Ten thousand or so? If this is the case, then using the 'one feeding per month' projection, each of those watchers who were left awake to tend to those that slept required the deaths of 120,000 human beings in order to continue their lives. Given another 10,000 years, and each of those Wraith, if they are not otherwise killed, will take another 120,000 human lives. Kill that Wraith now, and those are 120,000 people it won't be able to murder over the course of the next 10,000 years.

120,000 for 1 Wraith over 1,000 years???? When you think about it, it isn't really that much..... It's a small protion of the millions of people that have lived on each of the ?100s? of Planets in the PG.

I'm going to have to side with Scyld on this.

Scyld
February 6th, 2008, 01:30 PM
Again, I am not claiming that the Wraith are evil, nor do I make any claim to hate them. I simply recognize that it is foolish for a prey-animal to actively sympathize with the thing that wants to eat it. Even if that prey-animal is one of those strange, godlike animals that we call 'sentient.'

dasNdanger
February 6th, 2008, 01:43 PM
Such a solution is beyond the bounds of possibility, again, lacking a convenient plot device. You can't just swoop in and alter the essential nature of a species without inverted tachyon beams, maybe a multi-phagic retrovirus or two, a neutrino pulse-wave (double points if at some point the characters are required to reverse its polarity), and, of course, a rerouting of the flux capacitor through the forward deflector array.

Furthermore, it is somewhat amusing to note that the Wraith themselves would likely be offended at the very thought of the human-cattle trying to 'domesticate' them. O_o

This IS fiction, right? ANYTHING is possible.

I would not want to see the Wraith altered in any way except to give them the ability to eat - and gain nourishment from - normal food.

This is not beyond the realm of possibilities, because they can eat normal food as children. Something changes in them at puberty - just like a diabetic's body stops being able to metabolize sugar. This indicates that there IS a medical solution to the Wraith's dietary needs.

And yes, the Wraith may not like the alternative. That's why such a solution would be perfect. Some Wraith choose the new way, and survive on normal food. They do not, however, lose their craving for humans, just like an alcoholic craves a drink, or an addict craves a fix. But these Wraith decide to suppress that desire because living at peace with humans is important to them.

On the other hand, some Wraith refuse to eat normal food, and continue to feed on humans. This way, people like you can have your Wraith worth killing, and people like me can have my Wraith worth saving. :D

And then we'd all be happy.

But the bottom line is this - Wraith can eat regular food as children, but for some reason their bodies stop absorbing nutrition from it. So, there is a possibility for the writers to use that little 'fact', and work their sci fi psuedo science magic to discover why they stop getting nutrition from regular food, and find a 'cure'.

VERY simple to do, and certainly the less bloodthirsty compared to your two options.


das

dasNdanger
February 7th, 2008, 07:39 PM
Again, I am not claiming that the Wraith are evil, nor do I make any claim to hate them. I simply recognize that it is foolish for a prey-animal to actively sympathize with the thing that wants to eat it. Even if that prey-animal is one of those strange, godlike animals that we call 'sentient.'

So, the idea of finding an alternative food source doesn't work for you? The only option is death?

I have great sympathy for these characters. But then again, I have sympathy for anyone - or anything - that is starving. For a fellow human, or an animal, I would try to feed it. For the Wraith, if something like that existed in the real world, I would want scientists to find a way to solve their food source problem. That would be the best option for me. Not just killing an entire species without trying first to find an alternative.


das

Jumper_One
February 7th, 2008, 08:03 PM
from JM's blog

Rachel writes: “Todd is my best friend’s absolute favorite character (he’s a close second to McKay for me); will we be seeing him again at all in Season 5?”

Answer: Yes, Todd will be making an appearance in season 5.

Fenrir Foxz
February 7th, 2008, 08:05 PM
from JM's blog

Rachel writes: “Todd is my best friend’s absolute favorite character (he’s a close second to McKay for me); will we be seeing him again at all in Season 5?”

Answer: Yes, Todd will be making an appearance in season 5.


Fantastic stuff :)

dasNdanger
February 7th, 2008, 10:42 PM
Let's hope it's more than 'an' appearance...but SEVERAL appearances. If he's in The Last Man, as is assumed, then we can assume he's also in the season opener...which may be the episode he gets killed in. So, yeah - he'd be in S5 - but barely.

I just hope they keep him around for a long while. Oh, and I wouldn't mind seeing James Lafazanos come back as a Wraith - that man simply NAILED the Wraith he portrayed. Very good in this role - with his little mouth and eye expressions that really made the characters come to life. Loved his work.

das

ciannwn
February 8th, 2008, 04:46 AM
Crimes can be forgiven. Nature cannot.

If you're going to bring Nature into it you've got to accept that from a 'natural perspective' there's nothing special about us. We're animals and we're edible. The end.

Seeing as TPTB designed the Wraith to be an intelligent species with technology and a society it would be very interesting to learn more about these aliens. Presenting them as nothing more than targets in black trenchcoats is on the lines of having the bug-form Replicators in SG1. Watching Ronon dispose of them with his magic gun gets really boring. I might as well go to one of the arcades on the sea front and watch someone playing a shoot 'em up video game.

garhkal
February 9th, 2008, 12:29 AM
The most logical thing is to find a 'cure'. Humans have tried - but maybe they need to work WITH the Wraith, instead of against them, to find the ultimate cure.


das

Now that would make a sweet three to 6 episode arc. Especially if either Michael (not likely), Todd (very possible) or that wraith from condemmed (could work) were to propose it.


Oh, that makes absolutely no sense at all. A murderer has a CHOICE - he can choose to kill, or not to. Wraith have NO CHOICE...they have no control over their nature. I can easily forgive Wraith for what they are, much more than I can forgive a cold-blooded murderer who kills simply for the sake of killing.

Same here. A murderer is imo far worse than a wraith as NO murder is necessary.


The Murderer has a choice, and can also choose otherwise. A Wraith cannot choose to do otherwise, and therefore cannot be forgiven; it is not a matter of forgiveness at all, but of survival. There is no moral component to a Wraith's actions.

I will give you that part. Especially since we have seen how some wraith lavish the joy when they feed.


5. Do they believe in ascension or God or whatever?

I would actually love to know the answer to this one..


Furthermore, it is somewhat amusing to note that the Wraith themselves would likely be offended at the very thought of the human-cattle trying to 'domesticate' them. O_o

True dat. See what happened with Michael.


120,000 for 1 Wraith over 1,000 years????When you think about it, it isn't really that much..... It's a small protion of the millions of people that have lived on each of the ?100s? of Planets in the PG.

True.. And when you take into account we have killed a heck of a lot more fellow humans than that just this years with all the violence we have here on earth, it is strange we are saying kill the wraith cause they kill us..


If you're going to bring Nature into it you've got to accept that from a 'natural perspective' there's nothing special about us. We're animals and we're edible. The end.

Very true. but i can easily see why some advocate killing anything that preys on us humans.. Speciesism. Where they favor humans over anything else.

ciannwn
February 9th, 2008, 01:15 AM
Very true. but i can easily see why some advocate killing anything that preys on us humans.. Speciesism. Where they favor humans over anything else.

Speciesism brings about some very lopsided thinking on the lines of "Nature gives humans the right to kill Wraith in order to survive because Wraith have no right to feed on humans. It's OK for humans to eat cows, sheep and pigs, though, because these creatures are 'inferior' to us so don't count".

The 'Selfish Gene' idea shows the Pegasus galaxy situation in a different light. Human genes had human bodies as survival machines and Iratus bug genes had Iratus bug bodies. The two sets of genes met up and evolved a shared survival machine between them - the Wraith. If Wraith were genetically altered to eat normal food, both human and bug genes would have a survival machine which is vastly superior to their original models. At the moment, the big drawback to their shared machine is vulnerability due to an over specialised diet.

PS: From 'The Selfish Gene' -

http://www.rubinghscience.org/memetics/dawkinsmemes.html

Fundamentally, the reason why it is good policy for us to try to explain biological phemomena in terms of gene advantage is that genes are replicators. As soon as the primeval soup provided conditions in which molecules could make copies of themselves, the replicators themselves took over.

dasNdanger
February 9th, 2008, 05:03 AM
I will give you that part. Especially since we have seen how some wraith lavish the joy when they feed.

But don't you have great joy when you eat? I've often caught myself going 'mmmm-mmmm-MMMM!' when eating something really good. So...I guess these guys, especially if they're starving, DO find great joy when feeding.

Remember what Larrin said to John after John made the Wraith restore her years to her in The Travellers? She said it 'felt kinda good', and I think John said something like, 'I know, happened to me once. Long story.' So, if restoring one's life feels good to a human, I assume that feeding feels WONDERFUL to Wraith. Guess it's why they like us so much...

:)

das

GoSpikey
February 9th, 2008, 10:43 AM
I put the first feeding of Todd on Sheppard on again, today (couldn't watch the rest as SG-1 was about to start), and he truly goes all:

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Must be VERY good for them, when they're starved, to finally feed.

If Todd or Michael ever want me to worship them... :P

They need not torture me for it. But you already knew that, right? :D

;)

Scyld
February 9th, 2008, 05:43 PM
Very true. but i can easily see why some advocate killing anything that preys on us humans.. Speciesism. Where they favor humans over anything else.

Of course I favor humans over other species. I am human. Therefore, if there is a predator that preys exclusively upon my species, I desire its death. No matter what else a person may say, it always comes down to one simple fact: the wraith EAT PEOPLE. It's not a question of whether or not they have the right to kill us for food or if we have the right to kill them for eating us. They eat us. Therefore, if we do not ourselves wish to become their food, it is in our best interest to kill them before they can do so.

If you get that 'cure' done before we finish killing them all, we'll talk.

Pharaoh Atem
February 9th, 2008, 07:22 PM
i would like more wraith like todd :) someone with a personalty

nx01a
February 9th, 2008, 10:48 PM
Once upon a time, a Scorpion...
That 'Scorpion' parable is perhaps the most overused metaphor in all of sci-fi. I've heard it quoted across at least 6 shows, twice by Robert Beltran [though only once as Chakotay:P].


The point being, while I might not call Wraith evil, I am still comfortable destroying them. Sure, they're sentient life forms. But they're also predators whose only food is my species. That is not the sort of thing you can make peace with. Ever.
A Wraith is actually far worse than a murderer. A murderer typically does what he does for reasons of passion. For the sake of hatred, or rage, or for some other pathetic emotional reason. The murderer understands the value of life, because he empowers himself in the profane act of taking it. The Wraith, on the other hand, do what they do for the worst possible reasons they could possibly do them: practical reasons. They kill in order to nourish their bodies.
This makes what they do unforgivable.
Which is worse: killing to serve a biological imperative and not particularly caring one way or the other about your prey or not needing to kill but doing so simply for the sadistic pleasure of inflicting pain and death on your victims? It's like watching the Discovery Channel. Sure you feel bad for the gazelles but you can't save them all, and you can't kill all the lions. Now, if you had a drug that could turn all the lions into [relatively] harmless housecats, that might be a good thing. Unless you're a mouse...

jenks
February 10th, 2008, 12:21 AM
That 'Scorpion' parable is perhaps the most overused metaphor in all of sci-fi. I've heard it quoted across at least 6 shows, twice by Robert Beltran [though only once as Chakotay:P].


Which is worse: killing to serve a biological imperative and not particularly caring one way or the other about your prey or not needing to kill but doing so simply for the sadistic pleasure of inflicting pain and death on your victims? It's like watching the Discovery Channel. Sure you feel bad for the gazelles but you can't save them all, and you can't kill all the lions. Now, if you had a drug that could turn all the lions into [relatively] harmless housecats, that might be a good thing. Unless you're a mouse...

That's different, you're trying to argue as if we're an outside race looking in, but we're not. Humans are their prey, and if, as humans we have a moral obligation to save other humans lives then we also have a moral obligation to kill the Wraith, because for every Wraith that lives, many more humans will die. By allowing them to live all the expedition would be doing would be satisfying their own warped sense of empathy, it would be a selfish act of ignorance designed to distance themselves from the killing, because leaving the Wraith alive while there is no other solution, is a death sentence for every other human in the galaxy. Sure they should be trying to solve the 'Wraith feeding problem', but they should also be doing everything in their power to destroy the Wraith in the mean time.

ciannwn
February 10th, 2008, 02:53 AM
If you get that 'cure' done before we finish killing them all, we'll talk.

How do you expect garhkal to invent a cure? Only TPTB can do that.:)


Humans are their prey, and if, as humans we have a moral obligation to save other humans lives then we also have a moral obligation to kill the Wraith, because for every Wraith that lives, many more humans will die.

When the situation is just presented as members of a species having a survival instinct, then that's fine. Animal predators (including humans because we're animals) can be badly injured from their prospective food prey fighting back and they can die as a result. When it comes down to Nature it's really all about which models of 'gene survival machines' are the best. Wraith are highly vulnerable because of their specialised diet so becoming extinct due to their prey fighting back would be a direct result of this. Wraith would then be a 'failed survival machine model' for both 'human genes' and 'Iratus bug genes' because they evolved the 'Wraith machine' between them and now share it. Genes have no 'emotional attachment' to survival machines, though. If Wraith adapted to eating ordinary food and then all Pegasus humans dropped dead of a plague, the 'human genes' in the Wraith model wouldn't cry over it - they'd just carry on replicating through Wraith.

What I, personally, class as speciesism are statements on the following lines -


A Wraith is actually far worse than a murderer. A murderer typically does what he does for reasons of passion. For the sake of hatred, or rage, or for some other pathetic emotional reason. The murderer understands the value of life, because he empowers himself in the profane act of taking it. The Wraith, on the other hand, do what they do for the worst possible reasons they could possibly do them: practical reasons. They kill in order to nourish their bodies.
This makes what they do unforgivable.

I'm now going to bring up that word genocide again in relation to the real life human activity. When Group A exterminates Group B they are killing fellow humans who are just like themselves. How can they bring themselves to do such a thing? Here are two quotes from an article about it -

The Eight Stages Of Genocide (http://www.genocidewatch.org/8stages2006.htm)

3. DEHUMANIZATION: One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects or diseases. Dehumanization overcomes the normal human revulsion against murder. At this stage, hate propaganda in print and on hate radios is used to vilify the victim group.

7. EXTERMINATION begins, and quickly becomes the mass killing legally called “genocide.” It is “extermination” to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human.

Why is doing that towards members of one's own species 'better' than Wraith feeding on humans in order to live?


but they should also be doing everything in their power to destroy the Wraith in the mean time

A bit of caution when looking at 'everything' might well be more beneficial to humans in the long run.

The expedition using the Asurans as a weapon was a disaster for several human communities.

The topic is actually about giving Wraith more character development etc. though. SG1 did this for the Goa'uld along with supplying details about Goa'uld culture and history. If TPTB can do this for one alien species in their fictional universe, why can't they do it for another?

Scyld
February 10th, 2008, 10:25 AM
I'm now going to bring up that word genocide again in relation to the real life human activity. When Group A exterminates Group B they are killing fellow humans who are just like themselves. How can they bring themselves to do such a thing? Here are two quotes from an article about it -

The Eight Stages Of Genocide (http://www.genocidewatch.org/8stages2006.htm)

3. DEHUMANIZATION: One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects or diseases. Dehumanization overcomes the normal human revulsion against murder. At this stage, hate propaganda in print and on hate radios is used to vilify the victim group.

7. EXTERMINATION begins, and quickly becomes the mass killing legally called “genocide.” It is “extermination” to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human.

Why is doing that towards members of one's own species 'better' than Wraith feeding on humans in order to live?

Murder isn't the same thing as genocide. Genocide is far more than just 'killing many humans.' A murderer kills most often out of passion; it is a strange and marvellous thing for a man or a woman engaged in the act of killing another human being to be emotionally distant from the act. That is why we tend to think of 'stone cold killers' as being more monstrous than those who have pathetic emotional excuses (note that by 'pathetic' I do not mean 'contemptible').

Genocide is something else entirely. It is the dehumanization of human beings, both of the victim and of the aggressor. Within it is contained the fullness of the mystery of man's inhumanity towards man. There can be no hemming or hawing in the face of such brutality. It must be stamped out, or it will burn everything it can reach. But here can be seen a reflection of exactly why the Wraith are horrifying, and that is in the reasons for which people committing genocide will kill their victims.

Remember that someone who is seen as being emotionally distant from his or her act of murder is seen as much more monstrous than someone who does it for pathetic emotional reasons. Someone who kills another human being because he or she views his or her victim as an animal, as vermin, as an insect, or as a disease which must be destroyed has much more in common with the cannibal than with the murderer. He is killing another human being for the worst possible reasons: practical ones. The genocidist because his victims are only an infestation of vermin which must be wiped out. It's only sanitary. The cannibal because his victim is only so much meat and bone. It's just food, after all. Would a jury be more or less harsh in their sentencing if the defendant said that the reason they killed their victim was that they had a hankering for a nice, juicy steak cut from their victim's thigh? The cannibal and the genocidist each commit their crimes for reasons that are entirely practical, and each of their crimes is therefore unforgivable.

So it is with the Wraith. They kill to eat. They kill us to eat. Sentient creatures. Living souls. If the Wraith themselves were moral creatures, they would each of them voluntarily starve to death rather than eat human beings. Alas, such an act is beyond them: they are too civilized to consider such enlightened barbarism. Their hands are too well-scrubbed.



The topic is actually about giving Wraith more character development etc. though. SG1 did this for the Goa'uld along with supplying details about Goa'uld culture and history. If TPTB can do this for one alien species in their fictional universe, why can't they do it for another?

Fair enough.

ciannwn
February 10th, 2008, 11:59 AM
If the Wraith themselves were moral creatures, they would each of them voluntarily starve to death rather than eat human beings.

Morality is a purely human concept which has nothing whatsoever to do with Nature and evolution. No other animals have 'moral values' as far as we know - there were no 'morals' before humans appeared on the scene and if we all dropped dead tomorrow there'd be no 'morals' on the planet again. Nature doesn't care if members of a species kill other species for food or even kill and eat each other. Chimpanzees do both -

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/deepjungle/episode3_watts.html

In the 1970s, primate researchers shocked many people with the news that chimpanzees hunted and killed colobus monkeys.

Now it turns out that chimps and humans have something else in common: the capacity to kill, and not just for food.

Then came even more stunning news: Chimps killed, and sometimes ate, their own kind too.

Today, many scientists believe the hunts are a form of organized violence that plays an important role in chimp culture.

We've also observed groups of male chimps going on patrol and being pretty nasty to their neighbors. Since we've been there, we've documented chimps killing at least seven infant chimps, four adult males, and one juvenile chimp. Other times, they have beaten up females pretty badly.

Chimpanzees are our closest relatives.

http://anthropology.si.edu/HumanOrigins/ha/primate.html

Comparisons of DNA show that our closest living relatives are the ape species of Africa, and most studies by geneticists show that chimpanzees and humans are more closely related to each other than either is to gorillas.

However, it must be stressed that humans did not evolve from living chimpanzees. Rather, our species and chimpanzees are both the descendants of a common ancestor that was distinct from other African apes.

This indicates that human and chimpanzee violence are related. Nature doesn't care what chimps get up to and is equally indifferent to what humans get up to as well.

Human 'moral values' are human ideas which members of our species can throw out of the window whenever it suits them. Wraith aren't humans and as Beckett said - " .. they're still much closer to the bug creature that attacked Major Sheppard than to us...", it's more than likely that chimps are more closely related to humans than Wraith are. As 'human moral values' aren't an inherent property of Nature there is no reason at all why Wraith, who aren't human, should share them.

Wraith kill humans for a practical reason - they need them for food. Humans, in turn, kill Wraith for an equally practical reason - they do it to avoid being fed on by Wraith. Nature doesn't care if humans or Wraith survive and certainly isn't going to favour humans because it thinks that they have 'better moral values' than Wraith.

PS: If we get more about Wraith culture etc. there's no reason why TPTB should have them agonising over human ideas of 'moral dilemmas'. The Nox are an advanced race in the Stargate universe but their values weren't the same as the values of the SG1 team.

Scyld
February 10th, 2008, 06:05 PM
re: ciannwn

None of that addresses my point at all. You appear to have... er... reiterated what I myself said a few posts back?

There is only one idea in your post that I take issue with, and it is the implication that because in our experience only human beings have these things called 'morals,' that morals must therefore somehow be false or illusory or otherwise disconnected from reality. But that is altogether beside the point, and only a peripheral one at that.

I argued from a moral perspective only in response to such comments as, "We don't have the right to exterminate the Wraith just because they have inconvenient dietary requirements," and only after talk of it being in humanity's best interest to destroy a predator species so clearly tailored to hunt and kill us utterly failed to make any kind of impression.

dasNdanger
February 10th, 2008, 08:20 PM
Bottom line, Scyld, is this...

This isn't reality - it's fiction, and science fiction at that. If TPTB want to save the Wraith by finding an alternative food source, they will. If TPTB want to commit genocide on the Wraith, they will. As a fan of the Wraith - this thread is meant to draw attention to the ALTERNATIVES to genocide, and to suggest that the Wraith - their culture, and their personalities - can - and SHOULD be developed further. But there is no use in doing that if TPTB just plan to wipe them all out (which is the current trend).

So - let's try to keep this positive. I am interested in seeing further development of these characters, and the BEST WAY for that to happen is if they find an alternative food source, or are somehow 'cured' of their current condition of not being able to absorb nutrition from normal food. Fix that, and the possibiliites are endless.

For instance...I have said before (here, elsewhere) that the best solution for a fan such as myself is for the Wraith to find a way to gain nutrition from regular food - but NOT lose their hunger for humans. That way you can have Wraith who chose to survive on normal food and fight their hunger for humans (like an alcoholic resists a drink) because they realize an alliance with humans is more advantageous - in the long run - than feasting upon them. This would be a huge leap for Wraith to take, and would create quite a stir in both their society, and in the galaxy as a whole. It could be seen as an evolution of their species...coming closer to their human form than their iratus bug ancestors.

It would also allow for those Wraith (the majority, perhaps) who refuse to eat normally, but choose instead to keep to the old way of culling and feeding exclusively on humans. This would leave the door open for the Wraith to find, and attack, earth (thus keeping to the orginal threat made in The Rising).

Now - imagine a couple of options we could have here. Let's assume the Wraith find earth - and let's look at two (of dozens) of possibilities. Let's look at what you want, and what I want.

The way you are looking at this ("them or us"), the Wraith would attack earth, and we'd have a repeat of The Siege, with puny humans somehow managing to destroy the attacking Wraith fleet, and - most likely - exterminate all Wraith from the Universe. Ho-hum. Boring as hell. Been there, done that. Same scenario in every single action movie, or sci fi tv show I've ever seen.

Now - look at what I'd like to see...Wraith attack earth. Puny humans fight back, but are losing miserably. Suddenly, without notice - without an invitation - without any inkling that it was going to happen - Another hive (or three) appear on the scene - only they maneuver themselves between earth, and the attacking Wraith. With the help of the 'new' Wraith - those who have accepted feeding on normal food - the humans are able to defeat the attacking enemy fleet. Has such a thing been done before? Certainly - it's a real 7 Samurai sort of thing...the outsiders saving the village. But it's also the sort of formula that makes for more exciting storytelling, and leaves so many possibilities open for the future.

Now, granted - my scenario is a bit simplistic, maybe a bit too cliche as well. But it still makes for better hero/enemy/ally interaction. It gives us reason to root - not just for the good guys, but for the semi-questionable good guys as well. And it certainly would leave things wide open for any individual Wraith, or entire hive, to later return to their old ways of feeding if the script so required it. The Wraith would then remain both a threat, AND an ally...it would just be hard to know which was which from one day to the next. Again - makes for more exciting storytelling.

This is the stuff I want to talk about here - not whether or not the Wraith deserve to die, but HOW the Wraith can be made better, more exciting, and - hopefully - be developed as characters who are as integral to the stories as the main characters are.

So - with that in mind, please...continue to discuss the possibilities for Wraith character development, and hopefully their continued role in the show as both feared enemy, and unlikely - but much appreciated - ally.


das

ciannwn
February 11th, 2008, 04:34 AM
For instance...I have said before (here, elsewhere) that the best solution for a fan such as myself is for the Wraith to find a way to gain nutrition from regular food - but NOT lose their hunger for humans. That way you can have Wraith who chose to survive on normal food and fight their hunger for humans (like an alcoholic resists a drink) because they realize an alliance with humans is more advantageous - in the long run - than feasting upon them.

I think this is a good idea. They are in a very vulnerable position due to their over specialised diet and some of their food animals in Pegasus now have very big guns. We've learned something about the Wraith's version of politics so this would provide an opportunity for exploring the subject in greater depth.


This would be a huge leap for Wraith to take, and would create quite a stir in both their society, and in the galaxy as a whole. It could be seen as an evolution of their species...coming closer to their human form than their iratus bug ancestors.

What I'd like to see is Atlantis personnel regarding Wraith coming closer to human as a wonderful thing. Then they find themselves dealing with things like Pegasus galaxy humans fighting between themselves, Genii mercenaries deciding that they'd like their own little empire and -

Bola Kai raiding settlements for supplies as they've always done. Teyla's hints that they are cannibals turns out to be true.


This is the stuff I want to talk about here - not whether or not the Wraith deserve to die, but HOW the Wraith can be made better, more exciting, and - hopefully - be developed as characters who are as integral to the stories as the main characters are.

Human opinion on whether or not Wraith deserve to die would have to come into the story if it's to be realistic. Would all Pegasus humans welcome 'food eating Wraith' with open arms and invite them home to tea? What would Ronon think of a 'food eating Wraith' if he learned that the Wraith had come from the Sateda hive which destroyed his people? What if this Wraith had also been involved in hunting runners at one time? If some Wraith worshippers stayed with the 'food eating Wraith' how would other Pegasus humans regard them? How would 'food eating Wraith' deal with a situation where some of their worshippers were killed for being 'traitors' by other humans? After all, if they retaliated they could be breaking a term of any peace treaty they've made with the Tau'ri.

Then there's 'moral values' in relation to Wraith society. They appear to have certain moral values of their own when it comes to things like the 'gift of life'. In 'Common Ground' -

WRAITH: The gift of life is reserved only for our most devout worshippers ... and our brothers.

What does brotherhood mean in Wraith society? Is it a biological relationship or is it a metaphor for Wraith who are members of a particular group which shares similar aims? Do Wraith regard it as immoral to withhold the gift of life to a human who has proved him/herself a devout worshipper?

I'm now going to ask Scyld a question because it does relate to Wraith who ally themselves with the Tau'ri. In order to get along they'll have to become aware of 'human moral values' and will be obliged to go along with them when around humans. This could include Tau'ri back on Earth for some reason or other which would depend on the plot of a future story.


If the Wraith themselves were moral creatures, they would each of them voluntarily starve to death rather than eat human beings.

Which 'human moral values' should the Wraith adopt? Should it be -

1: Those of the Atlantis expedition personnel who eat meat and use other animals in experiments? (The mice in 'Duet').

2: Those of humans who maintain that it is immoral to eat other animals and experiment on them?

Then there's 'moral values' relating to other forms of human behaviour. Some humans insist that sex before marriage is immoral while other humans insist that it's acceptable. Which opinion should Wraith regard as being 'true' where human mating is concerned?

magneticresonance
February 11th, 2008, 04:41 AM
If the Wraith themselves were moral creatures, they would each of them voluntarily starve to death rather than eat human beings.

I have to take issue with the above statement - to my mind, it needs a qualifier: 'if the Wraith themselves were moral creatures according to my definition of morality'. As a moral subjectivist, I don't accept that it's appropriate to force one's personal morality on another human being even within one's own culture, let alone apply it to an entirely different species.

Also - out of interest, are you a vegetarian? :) As far as the Wraith are concerned, humans are lesser animals, and there's little difference between a Wraith feeding on a human being and a human being feeding on a pig. Of course, we're sentient in a way cattle and other food animals are not, but there's still plenty of room to argue that perhaps sentience, like morality, is relative. But I guess that's a whole other debate. Along with 'would you rather be a human satisfied, or a Wraith dissatisfied?' :)

ciannwn
February 11th, 2008, 06:10 AM
but there's still plenty of room to argue that perhaps sentience, like morality, is relative. But I guess that's a whole other debate.

'Human moral values' does relate to this topic in a way because Sheppard has had to confront the problem of 'moral values' in several stories.

1: He let Todd go in 'Common Ground' even though he knew that Todd would have to feed on humans in the future in order to survive.

2: He let a Wraith go in 'Travellers' after the Wraith had given Larrin her life back. As the Wraith had a dart and there was a gate in this solar system there was no indication that he was going to die of starvation on the way back to his hive. Once there he'd be feeding on humans again.

3: 'Miller's Crossing' where Sheppard talked Wallace into 'doing the decent thing' in order to save Jeannie. The 'decent thing' was volunteering to be Todd's lunch.

Could the 'Travellers' Wraith's experience have any bearing on how some Wraith could regard a 'food eating solution' in the future? If Sheppard told them "We won't harm you if you take this option" would a reputation amongst Wraith for keeping his word help them to trust the Atlantis expedition?

dasNdanger
February 11th, 2008, 07:27 PM
I think this is a good idea. They are in a very vulnerable position due to their over specialised diet and some of their food animals in Pegasus now have very big guns. We've learned something about the Wraith's version of politics so this would provide an opportunity for exploring the subject in greater depth.

Exactly. I think it's time to move the Wraith along, and continue to explore their politics, and their society, and their different personalities. To see different factions arise over eating regular food vs humans - to see both in-fighting among the Wraith, and alliances with humans and such - it would all make for good storytelling. 'There is much about Wraith you do not know' - well...let's see what they mean by that.


What I'd like to see is Atlantis personnel regarding Wraith coming closer to human as a wonderful thing. Then they find themselves dealing with things like Pegasus galaxy humans fighting between themselves, Genii mercenaries deciding that they'd like their own little empire and -

Bola Kai raiding settlements for supplies as they've always done. Teyla's hints that they are cannibals turns out to be true.

Ah, yes. I'd like that sort of thing, too.


Human opinion on whether or not Wraith deserve to die would have to come into the story if it's to be realistic. Would all Pegasus humans welcome 'food eating Wraith' with open arms and invite them home to tea? What would Ronon think of a 'food eating Wraith' if he learned that the Wraith had come from the Sateda hive which destroyed his people? What if this Wraith had also been involved in hunting runners at one time? If some Wraith worshippers stayed with the 'food eating Wraith' how would other Pegasus humans regard them? How would 'food eating Wraith' deal with a situation where some of their worshippers were killed for being 'traitors' by other humans? After all, if they retaliated they could be breaking a term of any peace treaty they've made with the Tau'ri.

See all the possibilities!!! Now - if only TPTB could see them, too! (maybe they have, maybe they haven't - just hoping they HAVE, and will advance the Wraith along in more positive ways.)

And yes - human opinion as to whether Wraith deserve to live or die have to come into consideration - IN SGA. But it's useless to argue it among ourselves, since we live in the real world, and the Wraith do not. I just don't want to continue arguing over the issue since people either think the Wraith should be allowed a chance to live, or they should all die. It's just a waste of energy to argue it at this point.


Then there's 'moral values' in relation to Wraith society. They appear to have certain moral values of their own when it comes to things like the 'gift of life'. In 'Common Ground' -

WRAITH: The gift of life is reserved only for our most devout worshippers ... and our brothers.

What does brotherhood mean in Wraith society? Is it a biological relationship or is it a metaphor for Wraith who are members of a particular group which shares similar aims? Do Wraith regard it as immoral to withhold the gift of life to a human who has proved him/herself a devout worshipper?

See - this is the stuff that I'd like to see more of - Wraith's concept of 'family' - is the hive his family, or what? Do they have loyalty to one another - honor - friendships? What is the males relationship with the Queens? How do the higher Wraith (unmasked) reproduce? Do they have a spirituality? Do they believe in Ascension? I could go on, but so much to learn about them, I can't wait to see what is revealed next (I just hope TPTB find a way for Wraith and humans to co-exist without threat of death hanging over the heads of either species).


das

magneticresonance
February 12th, 2008, 03:51 AM
See - this is the stuff that I'd like to see more of - Wraith's concept of 'family' - is the hive his family, or what? Do they have loyalty to one another - honor - friendships? What is the males relationship with the Queens? How do the higher Wraith (unmasked) reproduce? Do they have a spirituality? Do they believe in Ascension?

I've always felt that a Wraith hive is like family in a sense, but probably not in the same way we consider family - there would be a strong sense of loyalty and perhaps an emotional attachment to one's hive, but it wouldn't be as individual as with humans. We have parents, siblings, children, etc. and tend to feel a different kind of attachment to each; for the Wraith I think the sense of attachment would be more generic. 'Brothers' is probably the closest word they have to our concept of family, but I took that to mean more like 'brothers in arms' - perhaps the subjective experience of family for a Wraith would be more like our concept of shipmates or teamates than family, though perhaps somewhat more intimate. But honour, loyalty, and friendships - my guess would be yes, though again it might not manifest in the same way as we experience those concepts. Todd seemed to lose his sense of humour a little after a hive loyal to him was destroyed. Perhaps he was grieving? Of course he was also getting quite peckish by that time ;)

Socially, I imagine Wraith living in a fashion similar to the Andorians in Star Trek - hives are similar to clans and keeps; there's very little privacy, they share living space intimately, don't have much concept of personal space, etc. It would fit with their insectoid nature.

I love the idea of exploring the Wraith's conception of Ascension. Since it's a physiological process, it would presumably be at least theoretically possible for a Wraith to ascend. I'd love to see an ascended - or even better, part-ascended - Wraith! Now *that* would be a formidable enemy! What about an entire hive choosing to explore ascension as a military tactic, perhaps a hangover from the war with the Ancients? Might make for a cool arc. And it'd be *scary* :D

dasNdanger
February 12th, 2008, 04:54 AM
I've always felt that a Wraith hive is like family in a sense, but probably not in the same way we consider family - there would be a strong sense of loyalty and perhaps an emotional attachment to one's hive, but it wouldn't be as individual as with humans. We have parents, siblings, children, etc. and tend to feel a different kind of attachment to each; for the Wraith I think the sense of attachment would be more generic. 'Brothers' is probably the closest word they have to our concept of family, but I took that to mean more like 'brothers in arms' - perhaps the subjective experience of family for a Wraith would be more like our concept of shipmates or teamates than family, though perhaps somewhat more intimate. But honour, loyalty, and friendships - my guess would be yes, though again it might not manifest in the same way as we experience those concepts. Todd seemed to lose his sense of humour a little after a hive loyal to him was destroyed. Perhaps he was grieving? Of course he was also getting quite peckish by that time ;)

Excellent observations and comments. I'm in a hurry (gotta get to work)...and I've only seen The Seer, and Miller's Crossing, once (and my memory isn's so hot), but in which episode was the hive destroyed? One of those? Was in in close proximity to him at the time? The reason I ask is because - if he was in a telepathic link with the hive, the sudden death of those he's linked with could certainly cause him to feel a loss - a sense of abandonment.

I think Todd felt like that in Common Ground - abandoned. Without the hive link, he seems to have been able to think for himself, as if the hive mentality keeps everyone focused on the task at hand, without allowing too much time for individual thought. Not that they are like Borg (we know they aren't), but when everyone around you is thinking 'we must accomplish such-and-such, no matter the cost', it's easy to go along. But with Todd in prison for so many years, cut off from the 'feed or die' mentality, it may have afforded him the opportunity to see things through different eyes. In Common Ground, it was through Sheppard's eyes. In BAMSR, it was through McKay's eyes. I am still looking for ideas of what - exactly - Todd was thinking when he did his little reflective 'hmmmm' after McKay came up with his first good idea in weeks, and ran off to share it with the others. Todd seemed to be impressed with Rodney, but it's still hard to say since we only get Todd's reaction, without further explanation.


Socially, I imagine Wraith living in a fashion similar to the Andorians in Star Trek - hives are similar to clans and keeps; there's very little privacy, they share living space intimately, don't have much concept of personal space, etc. It would fit with their insectoid nature.

Exactly. And this would also tie in with the idea that - though they have the ability for individual thought - they maintain a like-mindedness, focused on their responsibilities in the hive, and - of course - culling and feeding. Extremely focused creatures.


I love the idea of exploring the Wraith's conception of Ascension. Since it's a physiological process, it would presumably be at least theoretically possible for a Wraith to ascend. I'd love to see an ascended - or even better, part-ascended - Wraith! Now *that* would be a formidable enemy! What about an entire hive choosing to explore ascension as a military tactic, perhaps a hangover from the war with the Ancients? Might make for a cool arc. And it'd be *scary* :D

What would have been cool to see is that - for humans - the Wraith actually helped them Ascend. In other words...giving your life force so another being could survive would be the ultimate sacrifice - the 'greatest gift' - worthy of Ascension. But I don't think that concept would work now, not with what we've seen of feeding (and no one ascending from it), and the fact that no one has come back and said, 'Whoa! Let the Wraith feed - the results are AMAZING!'

Just some thoughts. Gotta run!


das

Col.Ads
February 12th, 2008, 05:07 AM
Things I would like tosee more of in regards to the wraith.

Ship Creation - we know about them being organic and not having sheilds and they do have alot of unique aspects to them, But how are they created? are there ship yards? and who makes them? In SG1 slave jaffa or human slaves helped in various ways, so how do the wraith go about this?

Queen's - What do we actually know about wraith queens? more insight into them be good

Culture, what are there beliefs apart from humans being there food

Children how are they raised and low long till they are adult

Also be good to see the wraith culling more worlds and more conflict between atlantis and the wraith maybe with the wraith becoming a stronger threat

magneticresonance
February 12th, 2008, 09:20 AM
Excellent observations and comments. I'm in a hurry (gotta get to work)...and I've only seen The Seer, and Miller's Crossing, once (and my memory isn's so hot), but in which episode was the hive destroyed? One of those? Was in in close proximity to him at the time?

Thanks very much :) It's a very interesting topic! It was in The Seer, I believe, and the hive was in close proximity to Atlantis, and Todd, at the time. I agree that breaking a telepathic link like that would probably be pretty distressing. If so, Todd and probably Wraith in general seem to be able to control their emotions very well.


I think Todd felt like that in Common Ground - abandoned. Without the hive link, he seems to have been able to think for himself, as if the hive mentality keeps everyone focused on the task at hand, without allowing too much time for individual thought. Not that they are like Borg (we know they aren't), but when everyone around you is thinking 'we must accomplish such-and-such, no matter the cost', it's easy to go along. But with Todd in prison for so many years, cut off from the 'feed or die' mentality, it may have afforded him the opportunity to see things through different eyes. In Common Ground, it was through Sheppard's eyes. In BAMSR, it was through McKay's eyes. I am still looking for ideas of what - exactly - Todd was thinking when he did his little reflective 'hmmmm' after McKay came up with his first good idea in weeks, and ran off to share it with the others. Todd seemed to be impressed with Rodney, but it's still hard to say since we only get Todd's reaction, without further explanation.

I agree again - being cut off from the whole, so to speak, might be potentially very damaging for a Wraith. Perhaps that's why Todd comes across as a little...different from the others. Maybe he's been permanently changed by his experience, emotionally and perhaps even neurologically. As for his response to McKay (I love those little grunts and huffs and 'hmms', lol) I'd have to watch the episode again, but I'm wondering whether it was partially a realisation that humans are capable of thinking at a higher level than Wraith normally expect - like the way we sometimes react to a pet doing something unexpectedly intelligent.


What would have been cool to see is that - for humans - the Wraith actually helped them Ascend. In other words...giving your life force so another being could survive would be the ultimate sacrifice - the 'greatest gift' - worthy of Ascension. But I don't think that concept would work now, not with what we've seen of feeding (and no one ascending from it), and the fact that no one has come back and said, 'Whoa! Let the Wraith feed - the results are AMAZING!'

That would definitely have been cool, and made for an interesting possible explanation of Wraith worshippers! I can imagine various characters - including Daniel, perhaps - being appalled by the idea that people would give themselves to the Wraith in order to ascend, and seeing it as 'cheating' or something. The concept of being fed on having positive aspects would really shake up general attitudes towards the Wraith! I really hope we see more of this 'gift of life' concept, as well - does restoring lifeforce create some kind of connection, maybe even a telepathic one? SG seems to like its telepathic linking eps. Are Sheppard and Todd maybe connected at a deeper level than Sheppard realises? The giving and taking of life force among Wraith might even be used to build trust and develop or maintain close relationships, by affecting the transmission of neurochemicals - like certain intimate activities do in humans.

ciannwn
February 12th, 2008, 09:53 AM
I can imagine various characters - including Daniel, perhaps - being appalled by the idea that people would give themselves to the Wraith in order to ascend, and seeing it as 'cheating' or something.

Daniel was only able to ascend himself with Oma's help. Then there's the ascension machine which the Lanteans built in order to accelerate the ascension process. Couldn't those two ways of getting there be considered cheating?

I still think Wraith should invent their own version of an ascension machine. Members of a species which can go into hibernation shouldn't have too much trouble getting their brains to operate at the correct frequency. Cheya might be a bit annoyed, though. :)


The giving and taking of life force among Wraith might even be used to build trust and develop or maintain close relationships, by affecting the transmission of neurochemicals - like certain intimate activities do in humans.

Giving the gift of life would certainly be more intimate than food sharing as in two Wraith having one human for lunch between them.

magneticresonance
February 12th, 2008, 01:32 PM
Daniel was only able to ascend himself with Oma's help. Then there's the ascension machine which the Lanteans built in order to accelerate the ascension process. Couldn't those two ways of getting there be considered cheating?

Depending on your perspective, yes - but then again you could argue that Oma wouldn't have chosen to help Daniel if she hadn't thought him worthy, so he'd earned his right to ascend, in a sense. The ascension machine's more obvious as cheating. But there being alternative ways to cheat doesn't mean that ascension by Wraith isn't cheating :D


I still think Wraith should invent their own version of an ascension machine. Members of a species which can go into hibernation shouldn't have too much trouble getting their brains to operate at the correct frequency. Cheya might be a bit annoyed, though. :)

I'd love to see that!


Giving the gift of life would certainly be more intimate than food sharing as in two Wraith having one human for lunch between them.

Definitely - it should probably come after sharing the human. And then only if there's a deep and mutual attraction...

:wraith: Fancy some gift of life tonight?

::wraithanime11: Only if you buy me dinner first!

dasNdanger
February 12th, 2008, 01:40 PM
Thanks very much :) It's a very interesting topic! It was in The Seer, I believe, and the hive was in close proximity to Atlantis, and Todd, at the time. I agree that breaking a telepathic link like that would probably be pretty distressing.

Yes, I think it would. Also - he's trying to leverage his way back in, and all of his supporters are either getting killed, or betraying him. So, twice the loss - loss of his hive, and a setback for his plans.


If so, Todd and probably Wraith in general seem to be able to control their emotions very well.

That's one thing I love about them. They put on this self-controlled, civilized air, but when they feed, they totally give way to their inner beast. The way they act when they feed is almost sensual, as if it's the greatest pleasure to be had - EVER. Just love the contrast between the poised, well-spoken 'gentleman', and the snarling beast he's reduced to when feeding.


I agree again - being cut off from the whole, so to speak, might be potentially very damaging for a Wraith. Perhaps that's why Todd comes across as a little...different from the others. Maybe he's been permanently changed by his experience, emotionally and perhaps even neurologically.

I think in Chris Heyerdahl's interview (Todd), he said something to that effect (or I read it somewhere else). Something about his experience in jail has changed his feelings about his own Wraith society. Will be interesting if the writers take this someplace POSITIVE.


As for his response to McKay (I love those little grunts and huffs and 'hmms', lol) I'd have to watch the episode again, but I'm wondering whether it was partially a realisation that humans are capable of thinking at a higher level than Wraith normally expect - like the way we sometimes react to a pet doing something unexpectedly intelligent.

That very well could be it. McKay is food to him, but it's McKay (the lowly food-animal) - not Todd (the superior preditor) - who comes up with the brilliant solution. Me thinks Todd is re-thinking the whole 'human cattle' concept. He still must feed on humans, but - perhaps - he'll be more selective now, realizing that human life does have value.


That would definitely have been cool, and made for an interesting possible explanation of Wraith worshippers! I can imagine various characters - including Daniel, perhaps - being appalled by the idea that people would give themselves to the Wraith in order to ascend, and seeing it as 'cheating' or something. The concept of being fed on having positive aspects would really shake up general attitudes towards the Wraith! I really hope we see more of this 'gift of life' concept, as well - does restoring lifeforce create some kind of connection, maybe even a telepathic one? SG seems to like its telepathic linking eps. Are Sheppard and Todd maybe connected at a deeper level than Sheppard realises? The giving and taking of life force among Wraith might even be used to build trust and develop or maintain close relationships, by affecting the transmission of neurochemicals - like certain intimate activities do in humans.

Heyerdahl said that Todd's experience was more profound - more 'right' - than Sheppard's. Sheppard only saw the events in Common Ground as another adventure, but for Todd, the events made him look at life in a different way, and at humans in a different way I suppose, too.

It would be interesting to know if - when Todd gave Shep back his life - it had an affect on how he views the Wraith. Ever since, he's tried to be more understanding of their situation, even letting the Wraith go in The Travellers episode after he restored Larrin's (sp?) life. In the past, Shep would have just shot the guy.

Thinking about how Todd reacted to feeding on Sheppard - it was almost...well...again, 'sensual'. Maybe that's the wrong word here - 'sensuous' might be better (less sexual in definition). Todd obviously enjoyed feeding on Sheppard - and when he said to Sheppard, 'You're Strong. Stronger than any human I've ever fed upon'...and the way he looks in that scene...you can see that Sheppard's strength not only tasted delicious, but it also seems to have given Todd inner strength, too. I wonder if it can happen that way...? 'You are what you eat', and all of that.

What did the Wraith in Condemned say? "The taste of their defiance is sweet"...or something like that? Do defiant humans make the Wraith more defiant when they are fed upon? Would be interesting to know how the 'taste' of human emotions affects them. It's obvious that it brings the ultimate satisfaction to Wraith when they feed...but does it give them even more? Is it what brings out their human side, and their more human emotions?

Ah...so much that could be explained!!


Daniel was only able to ascend himself with Oma's help. Then there's the ascension machine which the Lanteans built in order to accelerate the ascension process. Couldn't those two ways of getting there be considered cheating?

I still think Wraith should invent their own version of an ascension machine. Members of a species which can go into hibernation shouldn't have too much trouble getting their brains to operate at the correct frequency. Cheya might be a bit annoyed, though. :)

I don't know much about the whole Ascension thing because I haven't watched SG1 - but I think the Wraith could ascend, and it is probably something that should be explored in the scripts. Ha. As if they actually write stories FOR the Wraith.


Giving the gift of life would certainly be more intimate than food sharing as in two Wraith having one human for lunch between them.

I think - for the Wraith - the feeding process is itself very intimate. They are not only feeding, but tasting our emotions. It's very sensual, like I said. Sensual for the Wraith, that is. For the human...not so much. :p

If so, then giving back that life MUST feel equally as good - Larrin and Sheppard basically acknowledged that in The Travellers episode. Now - that raises a question...

If the Wraith taste our emotions when they feed, then do humans taste the Wraith's emotions when they receive the 'gift of life'? I think some of this might be addressed in Broken Ties next season (I think that's the title).

Great discussion! Keep it going!

das

magneticresonance
February 12th, 2008, 02:12 PM
That's one thing I love about them. They put on this self-controlled, civilized air, but when they feed, they totally give way to their inner beast. The way they act when they feed is almost sensual, as if it's the greatest pleasure to be had - EVER. Just love the contrast between the poised, well-spoken 'gentleman', and the snarling beast he's reduced to when feeding.

It's a very effective contrast - there's definitely something of the traditional 'Dracula' style vampire about it.


I think in Chris Heyerdahl's interview (Todd), he said something to that effect (or I read it somewhere else). Something about his experience in jail has changed his feelings about his own Wraith society. Will be interesting if the writers take this someplace POSITIVE.

I hope the writers are listening to him! He seems to have a lot of insight into the character, and the Wraith in general.


It would be interesting to know if - when Todd gave Shep back his life - it had an affect on how he views the Wraith. Ever since, he's tried to be more understanding of their situation, even letting the Wraith go in The Travellers episode after he restored Larrin's (sp?) life. In the past, Shep would have just shot the guy.

I think you're right - Shep has a greater understanding of the Wraith now, and that's got to influence his perspective on them as an enemy. It'd be interesting to see a morally ambiguous situation where he should kill a Wraith, or group of them, where it's the logical military decision and the rest of the team are pressing him to do it, but he can't bring himself to do it, and has to wrestle with himself.


It's obvious that it brings the ultimate satisfaction to Wraith when they feed...but does it give them even more? Is it what brings out their human side, and their more human emotions?

That would make sense, and it's something else I'd love to see explored (are the writers reading this!? :D) If the Wraith are telepathic and empathic, can influence people's thoughts and feelings, etc, then it makes sense that they could be influenced in return, deliberately or otherwise. Teyla can do it; maybe ordinary humans could learn to do it, too. Perhaps Wraith like to feed off strong and defiant humans because in general their food is terrified, which might make them less tasty and cause the emotional experience for the Wraith to be less pleasant.


If the Wraith taste our emotions when they feed, then do humans taste the Wraith's emotions when they receive the 'gift of life'? I think some of this might be addressed in Broken Ties next season (I think that's the title).


I hope it is addressed - the idea makes a lot of sense. I've been looking forward to seeing more 'gift of life' stuff.

garhkal
February 12th, 2008, 02:31 PM
What would have been cool to see is that - for humans - the Wraith actually helped them Ascend. In other words...giving your life force so another being could survive would be the ultimate sacrifice - the 'greatest gift' - worthy of Ascension.
das

That would be a great plot hook... SGA group 1 go to a planet where some people are studying ascention and find out several have done that in the past.


I think you're right - Shep has a greater understanding of the Wraith now, and that's got to influence his perspective on them as an enemy. It'd be interesting to see a morally ambiguous situation where he should kill a Wraith, or group of them, where it's the logical military decision and the rest of the team are pressing him to do it, but he can't bring himself to do it, and has to wrestle with himself.

That would be something interesting to see.

ciannwn
February 12th, 2008, 02:56 PM
:wraith: Fancy some gift of life tonight?

::wraithanime11: Only if you buy me dinner first!

Shouldn't that be - Only if you cull me some dinner first? :D

dasNdanger
February 12th, 2008, 04:03 PM
Definitely - it should probably come after sharing the human. And then only if there's a deep and mutual attraction...

:wraith: Fancy some gift of life tonight?

::wraithanime11: Only if you buy me dinner first!


Shouldn't that be - Only if you cull me some dinner first? :D

:lol:

Okay - thanks guys (and/or gals). NOW my thoughts about the Wraith are even MORE sordid than before... :mckay:


das

dasNdanger
February 26th, 2008, 01:45 PM
Okay - just to get this thread back on track...

Now that I have seen Kindred, I really want to see more Wraith development, and a lot more Todd.

One thing I'd love to see is for the humans to be a guest aboard Todd's hive. He's been their guest, so now - let's turn the tables. It would give us a chance to see if the Wraith - at least the higher ones - have quarters, and if they have anything like guest quarters as well. And what about those pesky bathroom facilities. :) Also, if the Lanteans are aboard as guests, we might find out if there are Wraith children aboard, or if the Wraith have any form of entertainment. Do they have gyms where they work out? What do their labs and medical facilities look like? It would all be quite interesting...

I mean, just imagine it - Todd proudly offering the finest quarters - with the finest beds (made of gooey membrane and umbilicals) - to the Lanteans...and there's not a bathroom to be found, and the only food Rodney has to eat are giant camel heads (or whatever that thing in The Rising was).

Todd: "You are welcome to use my quarters during your stay with us. They are the finest aboard, of course."

Shep (making an unpleasant face): "Yeah. Thanks. I think. Do you have any blankets...or sheets...or...pillows?"

Todd: "I will see what I can do. In the meantime, please, make yourselves comfortable." *takes his leave*

Shep (looking into the room): "Maybe I should have asked him where the bathroom is..."

Rodney: "Oh! Good going! We don't even know if these ships have bathrooms! Wouldn't it have been a good idea to find something like that out before we agree to this little slumber party?"

Shep: "Well, I didn't think of it...I just assumed. How many cups of coffee did you have before the trip?"

Rodney: "Four. You?"

Shep: "Three and a half. And a glass of water. With ice."

Rodney: "Okay, you win. Maybe if we eat something. It'll, you know, absorb some of the fluids, at least until we can find a bathroom, or a bucket...or something that isn't full of holes. Got anything salty?"

Shep: "Nah. Didn't bring any food with me. You?"

Rodney: ... ... :eek:

~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah - it would be sweet to see the Lantean crew entertained as REAL guests aboard a hive ship for a change.

das

naamiaiset
February 26th, 2008, 02:12 PM
I mean, just imagine it - Todd proudly offering the finest quarters - with the finest beds (made of gooey membrane and umbilicals) - to the Lanteans...and there's not a bathroom to be found, and the only food Rodney has to eat are giant camel heads (or whatever that thing in The Rising was).

Todd: "You are welcome to use my quarters during your stay with us. They are the finest aboard, of course."

Shep (making an unpleasant face): "Yeah. Thanks. I think. Do you have any blankets...or sheets...or...pillows?"

Todd: "I will see what I can do. In the meantime, please, make yourselves comfortable." *takes his leave*

Shep (looking into the room): "Maybe I should have asked him where the bathroom is..."

Rodney: "Oh! Good going! We don't even know if these ships have bathrooms! Wouldn't it have been a good idea to find something like that out before we agree to this little slumber party?"

Shep: "Well, I didn't think of it...I just assumed. How many cups of coffee did you have before the trip?"

Rodney: "Four. You?"

Shep: "Three and a half. And a glass of water. With ice."

Rodney: "Okay, you win. Maybe if we eat something. It'll, you know, absorb some of the fluids, at least until we can find a bathroom, or a bucket...or something that isn't full of holes. Got anything salty?"

Shep: "Nah. Didn't bring any food with me. You?"

Rodney: ... ... :eek:

~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah - it would be sweet to see the Lantean crew entertained as REAL guests aboard a hive ship for a change.

das
:lol: I can just see todd's reaction when he comes back - "ugh... humans..." :p

Degilwen
February 26th, 2008, 02:25 PM
Ha Ha I hope Shep and Rod find the bathroom :D
But I hope also that we see in season 5 good looking Wraith .... Perhaps some "old" Wraith actors come back like this Penny or James or Mr Bamford :D

BlueJay
March 4th, 2008, 12:50 AM
An episode where the team is on Todds turf for an extended amount of time would be very good to see. It would allow us to see wraith interacting with each other on a more personal level. They would have to have some form of recreation, they could not always be working, though it would probably tie into daily life for them. Maybe some game like chess to teach younger wraith strategy. A training room for sparring would also be used for this, older wraith would also need to keep up their skills, develop defences against newly developed human weapons.

If team sheppard were aboard Todds hive, how would other wraith view their interaction? Would they resent Todd for bringing them onboard and treating them as equals? If an attempt to feed on one of them by a particularly resentful wraith occured what would Todds and the other wraiths reaction be?

I would love to see an episode where all the leaders of the different wraith factions held a meeting to discuss ways of dealing with some new, stronger enemy and they required the humans help and Todd had to bring in Sheppard and vouch for him in front of all of them. The various reactions the different wraith would have to both shep and todd would be interesting to see.

Since they have human worshippers wraith would have to have quarters designed especially for them. The team could stay in here. Don't think they'd get on with the worshippers though. A conversation with them could be quite enlightening. Why would they choose this? (ok, fairly obvious), what is the extent of their interaction with the wraith? How are they generally treated?

More info needed. Maybe season 5. (crosses fingers)

dasNdanger
March 5th, 2008, 06:52 PM
An episode where the team is on Todds turf for an extended amount of time would be very good to see. It would allow us to see wraith interacting with each other on a more personal level. They would have to have some form of recreation, they could not always be working, though it would probably tie into daily life for them. Maybe some game like chess to teach younger wraith strategy. A training room for sparring would also be used for this, older wraith would also need to keep up their skills, develop defences against newly developed human weapons.

I suspect they have a lot of training - and a lot of educational labs and stuff. I think of 'busy bees' - I doubt they engage in much recreation, except hunting runners and so forth. That is their sport. And I suspect they are all quite active in making things around the hive, and in improving their skills, and perhaps in tending to young if any are on board.


If team sheppard were aboard Todds hive, how would other wraith view their interaction? Would they resent Todd for bringing them onboard and treating them as equals? If an attempt to feed on one of them by a particularly resentful wraith occured what would Todds and the other wraiths reaction be?

Since they do interact with human worshippers, I think the Wraith would tolerate the Lanteans okay...if anything, they might have a sort of curiosity about them since - in general - Wraith do not get to know their human food, and you can't really count worshippers because they are a bit subdued within the hive.

I do think Todd might face some opposition by having them on board, and it would be interesting to see one try to feed on a Lantean, and have Todd intervene.

Some things I'd LOVE to see aboard a Wraith ship....

1. Rodney working in Todd's lab for a change...what does it look like? How does Rodney handle the technology?

2. Food. I would LOVE for the Wraith to prepare what they consider a fine feast for their guests - put out the very best of what they have to offer...and have it all be very icky things. The menu may include those giant camel heads (like I said before) - a variety of insects - yucky internal things, like brains and hearts and livers...stuff not everyone likes. It could be quite fun, especially if the Wraith are eager to please their guests, and are watching them in anticipation of the humans enjoying the food...when, in reality, they don't.

3. A Wraith doctor operating on a Lantean to save their life. We got a glimpse of the Wraith surgery in Runner, but I'd like to see more...see how they would treat a sick or wounded patient. Do they use anything to kill the pain? Do they operate on a person while they are awake? What do the Wraith consider to be 'humane' treatment of a patient...'do no harm' - is it in their ability to grasp that idea, or do they think nothing of pain - both when in inflicting it, and when receiving it.

Just some thoughts...


I would love to see an episode where all the leaders of the different wraith factions held a meeting to discuss ways of dealing with some new, stronger enemy and they required the humans help and Todd had to bring in Sheppard and vouch for him in front of all of them. The various reactions the different wraith would have to both shep and todd would be interesting to see.

Yeah - that would be good. To see a session where several Wraith are debating the value of an alliance with humans would be sweet. To see their reaction to Todd - to Sheppard - to the whole concept of working together with their food source - would be very interesting. Thing is - at least in Star Trek we WOULD get to see things like this - the Klingons arguing amongst themselves over a course of action...but in SGA, it's all done off-screen, and we miss out on so much because of it.


Since they have human worshippers wraith would have to have quarters designed especially for them. The team could stay in here. Don't think they'd get on with the worshippers though. A conversation with them could be quite enlightening. Why would they choose this? (ok, fairly obvious), what is the extent of their interaction with the wraith? How are they generally treated?

More info needed. Maybe season 5. (crosses fingers)

I wouldn't be surprised if the Worshippers stay in those cocoon things. I think that might even be how all the Wraith sleep...in a small 'cell' (remember The waking scene in The Rising - Wraith - long coats and all - were each in a single cell where they rested until awakening. No beds, no blankets - just encased in membrane.

Yum. :p


das

BlueJay
March 6th, 2008, 02:32 AM
'busy bees'
Some things I'd LOVE to see aboard a Wraith ship....

1. Rodney working in Todd's lab for a change...what does it look like? How does Rodney handle the technology?

2. Food. I would LOVE for the Wraith to prepare what they consider a fine feast for their guests - put out the very best of what they have to offer...and have it all be very icky things.

3. A Wraith doctor operating on a Lantean to save their life. ...see how they would treat a sick or wounded patient. Do they use anything to kill the pain? Do they operate on a person while they are awake?

To see a session where several Wraith are debating the value of an alliance with humans would be sweet. To see their reaction to Todd - to Sheppard - to the whole concept of working together with their food source - would be very interesting.

das

Busy little bees is probably right, but, what about meditation. Like steve, he seemed calm enough at that time. Spirituality, don't you usually have to be relatively still and reflective. I just saw misbegotten for the first time and weren't that group of human-wraith chanting or humming?

Rodney would be typical Rodney even in Todd's lab. At the end of season two, beginning of three, he says their operating system is a mess. I wonder if he would be game enough to say this in front of a group of wraith scientists.:p :psycho:

Wraith food, just like the feast in Indiana Jones and the temple of doom!:D
Snake suprise:p I don't know why but when i was a kid i loved this part of the movie. I wonder if Rodney would faint?

Wraith don't seem to mind pain all that much, they just block it out, and wouldn't need anasthetic (sp?). But, they do have worshippers and it would be really difficult (and irritating to the wraith) to try to treat someone who wouldn't hold still and kept screaming. When a ship is attacked it stands to reason that some of the humans would be injured and unless they have their own human doctors they're going to have to put themselves in the wraiths hands.:D

I know i said it but after reading your new thread would Todd vouch for Shep?
I'd like to think he would but after reading all that maybe not. I'm a little intimidated to go and post a reply over there, you have too many thoughts, i really do hope the writers put as much thought into all this as you and others do.:S

dasNdanger
March 6th, 2008, 03:59 AM
Busy little bees is probably right, but, what about meditation. Like steve, he semed calm enough at that time. Spirituality, don't you usually have to be relatively still and reflective. I just saw misbegotten for the first time and weren't that group of human-wraith chanting or humming?

Yes - that's how they combined their telepathic abilities to contact a hive - cool moment. I forgot about meditation/spirituality. I do believe the Wraith have a sort of spirituality, and find time for reflective meditation. I loved how Steve used meditation to remain calm and controlled in a bad situation...very good.


Rodney would be typical Rodney even in Todd's lab. At the end of season two, beginning of three, he says their operating system is a mess. I wonder if he would be game enough to say this in front of a group of wraith scientists.:p

Ah, yes!! Probably not AS messy to the Wraith - but who knows. It seems the keepers were the ones who kept things up and running, and with them making different alliances, those who are newly awakened now must figure everything out after their long sleep. And it seems that when a hive (or any Wraith tech) is damaged, it over-heals (like a scar) - we saw that in the Phantoms episode where the Wraith generator over-healed after being shot by the Genii, making the whole thing quite a mess for Rodney to figure out. Yeah - would love to see Rodney trying to work out the bugs with Todd & Co...and all the Wraith constantly rolling their eyes at his ramblings...

Rodney (buzzing around the control room, talking a mile a minute): "No, no, no - just look a this mess! There's too many redundant umbilicals, and there's no way of telling now which is the original power supply, and which ones relay data...and...and now your operating systems are all interconnected with each other - nothing is isolated. One goes down - they'll all go down. I mean, just look at this! How do you expect to keep your life support running if it's interfaced with...weapons...? You have to redirect these...veins...over to this...WHAT is this? It looks like a giant knee cap! Why does everything in this place look like it's straight out of the Grindhouse movie?!"

Ronon (looking surprised): "You saw Grindhouse?"

Rodney (shuddering): "Not willingly, let me assure you. But if anything in real life resembles the work of flesh-eating zombies, it's the operating systems of a hive ship. No, let me rephrase that...it's the entire hive ship. I mean, there's bones, and umbilicals and veins and membranes all over the place...something over there that looks like the large intestine...and a colon...and...*rambles on and on and on...*

Wraith technician, to Todd: "Commander. Please, I implore you...before he drives us all to the brink of insanity...let me feed on him...NOW..."

Todd (forcing his words out through clenched teeth): "Just keep smiling and nodding...and go to your happy place..."

Wraith (closes eyes and mumbles under his breath): "I'm in my happy place...I'm in my happy place." (To Todd) "It's not working, Commander...I now imagine myself feeding upon him even in my happy place..."

Todd: "Yeah, me too." http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/dasNdanger/icon_razz.gif



Wraith food, just like the feast in Indiana Jones and the temple of doom!:D
Snake suprise:p I don't know why but when i was a kid i loved this part of the movie. I wonder if Rodney would faint?

Exactly! And Rodney fainting over the sight of it would be priceless!


Wraith don't seem to mind pain all that much, they just block it out, and wouldn't need anasthetic (sp?). But, they do have worshippers and it would be really difficult (and irritating to the wraith) to try to treat someone who wouldn't hold still and kept screaming. When a ship is attacked it stands to reason that some of the humans would be injured and unless they have their own human doctors they're going to have to put themselves in the wraiths hands.:D

With Ronon, it seems they paralyzed him, but did not put him to sleep, or do anything to kill the pain. But that was Ronon. Maybe if they were trying to actually HELP a human, they would be more humane.

And can you imagine Todd getting the tracking device implanted? Where did he have it put in? His back? More likely, his arm - somewhere where he could activate it. Did he do it himself? Have it done? And who cut it out (I think Penny Wraith did), and did it hurt? Poor Todd.


I know i said it but after reading your new thread would Todd vouch for Shep?

If it was to his advantage to do so, yes.


I'd like to think he would but after reading all that maybe not. I'm a little intimidated to go and post a reply over there, you have too many thoughts, i really do hope the writers put as much thought into all this as you and others do.:S

No worries - I'm intimidated now, too! I have to reply to some great comments there, and no idea when I'll find the time today to do so...gotta get to work. :(


das

BlueJay
March 9th, 2008, 12:43 AM
it seems that when a hive (or any Wraith tech) is damaged, it over-heals (like a scar) - we saw that in the Phantoms episode where the Wraith generator over-healed after being shot by the Genii, making the whole thing quite a mess for Rodney to figure out.

Todd (forcing his words out through clenched teeth): "Just keep smiling and nodding...and go to your happy place..."

das

:lol: happy place..... all you can eat rodney buffet:)

Haven't seen phantoms but i do recall something about it in JM's blog.
and allies. forgot:o
If things got too messy after being attacked so many times they may have to land to do repairs, cut some pieces out.

Would Todds tracking device have been mentally operated.

Todd may think twice before vouching for Shep to other wraith. If Shep and the gang do something bad, and they probably would try something, Todd is going to cop a lot of the blame and he may not see it as being worth his while. If he regaings some of his standing he may not want to jeopardize his position. If queens are usually in charge they would take any reason to knock him down.
In a previous SG-1 episode there was a congregation of powerful enemies and the Sg team snuck a member in with the intention of a mass poisioning.
The IOA may see a gathering of powerful wraith too good an opportunity to pass up and order an attack.

there was something else but i forget now. It's to late to think.

Laura the Asgard
March 14th, 2008, 04:12 PM
I agree with this very long thread that we need more development. I have always liked the wraith, especially Steve, but they didn't get much air time and often ended up dead or never seen again.

Like other people have mentioned above. What do they do for fun? We know they are very smart and they have the science thing down, but what about art? Do they sing, paint, draw, sculpture, and build models or anything like that? Do they fall in love? What do they value in others? What makes one wraith loyal to another? There is always speculation but not any confirmation and I'm glad we are getting to know them (or at least Todd) better now but I really want more.

I love Todd like a lot of other people. I especially want to know how Todd is not in allegiance with or subjugated to, a queen. It makes him very unique at least compared to what we’ve seen before. How does he get other wraith to seemingly step down and let him take command their hives – unless he already had command and his absence didn’t matter? He had the one hive in “The Seer” and that blew up and then in "he Kindred" he mentioned finding the cure for his hive only. How many hives does he have? I have many questions. I hope one day the writers give us the answers…but not too many. I still like the fact that there is a mystic about them.

Basically I agree with all of you. We need more wraith development. They are enjoyable villains, if that makes sense.

dasNdanger
March 17th, 2008, 10:17 AM
:Would Todds tracking device have been mentally operated.

Very possible - it is Wraith-tech, afterall.


I agree with this very long thread that we need more development. I have always liked the wraith, especially Steve, but they didn't get much air time and often ended up dead or never seen again.

Yeah - in a way I think they were very foolish for so easily killing off great Wraith characters. Steve was excellent...and Bob probably had great potential, too...if he hadn't been killed so quickly. James - with only a few minutes of screen time - was able to create memorable, and very different, Wraith personalities over and over again. Imagine if they had given him one character with the amount of screen time ones like Michael and Todd have had? Oh well...


Like other people have mentioned above. What do they do for fun? We know they are very smart and they have the science thing down, but what about art? Do they sing, paint, draw, sculpture, and build models or anything like that? Do they fall in love? What do they value in others? What makes one wraith loyal to another? There is always speculation but not any confirmation and I'm glad we are getting to know them (or at least Todd) better now but I really want more.

I think hunting runners is their sport. They probably also do a lot of combat training/sparring. They obviously enjoy personal grooming and adornment. I doubt they have forms of entertainment, unless it's some sort of bloodsport. They may spend the majority of their time trying to improve their skills, and learn how to be more devious and tricksy. I think it's safe to say they like telling jokes...and they LOVE taking looooong naps. :D


I love Todd like a lot of other people. I especially want to know how Todd is not in allegiance with or subjugated to, a queen. It makes him very unique at least compared to what we’ve seen before. How does he get other wraith to seemingly step down and let him take command their hives – unless he already had command and his absence didn’t matter? He had the one hive in “The Seer” and that blew up and then in "he Kindred" he mentioned finding the cure for his hive only. How many hives does he have? I have many questions. I hope one day the writers give us the answers…but not too many. I still like the fact that there is a mystic about them.

Todd kinda reminds me of Clint Eastwood in his old westerns - or...Captain Jack Sparrow. I haven't decided yet... :p


Basically I agree with all of you. We need more wraith development. They are enjoyable villains, if that makes sense.

Agreed. I want to see more of the Wraith as a whole being developed, but Todd - and maybe another character or two - as well. The only thing is I'd prefer Todd kept in the middle - neither 100% villain, or 100% ally...it makes him more entertaining that way because we know whenever he shows up, he's going to stir the pot and make things exciting!

das

dasNdanger
March 28th, 2008, 01:31 PM
So - great news as we all know - Todd is slated for 3 episodes, 'so far', in S5 - I certainly hope for more, but I guess we'll have to wait and see exactly how they're going to develop this guy.

And we'll also learn whether or not he answers to a queen.

So, between Todd's appearances, and the info we have so far on Broken Ties, do you think we're finally getting into the heart and soul of the Wraith, or do you think info will only still come in dribs and drabs?


das

GoSpikey
March 28th, 2008, 02:20 PM
So - great news as we all know - Todd is slated for 3 episodes, 'so far', in S5 - I certainly hope for more, but I guess we'll have to wait and see exactly how they're going to develop this guy.

And we'll also learn whether or not he answers to a queen.

So, between Todd's appearances, and the info we have so far on Broken Ties, do you think we're finally getting into the heart and soul of the Wraith, or do you think info will only still come in dribs and drabs?


das

Nope, and yeah, that... :(