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Admiral Mappalazarou
February 3rd, 2008, 04:41 PM
C'mon writers, just bring Beckett back. He was one of the best characters on Atlantis and it was a stupid mistake to write him out. So just bring him back to season five as a full-time doc again and maybe we'll forgive you.

And stop writing Sam as Weir. And stop introducing new characters to replace old ones just because you can't think of where to go with them. Think of something, or hire more writers, and stop re-using SG-1 stories. I've been looking through the various seasons of Atlantis and have seen just how many episodes could have been written as SG-1 episodes, and a lot have already been done on SG-1. And another thing, what the hell did you do to Michael?! He was an ace character before you guys turned him into Dr Evil!! :mad: What the hell was that about?

I honestly think that its an insult that you've tried to make Atlantis 'darker' by making it a bit more violent, and tried to explore new depths of scifi by destroying characters who actually had character development at one point by having them 'run around an underground lair with an evil army of bugs'. I was chatting to a friend before about how SGA comes across as being the holder of all of SG-1's rejected storylines. Surely you can see that.

So this a plea from me to you, please please please surprise us with season five. Make it far better than the rest, make it different and stunning and add something that will make us all go 'THAT'S NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE...!:eek:' in every episode. It is possible. Stop making it like SG-1 by adding old foes (replicators) and bringing in people from Earth to spice it up a little bit (Sam). Take it into a different direction, you've experimented with gate travel on SG-1...We already know that the stargate can take people to other worlds....Just try something new is all I'm asking.:mckay:

Is that seriously too much to ask? I've been watching Stargate for ten years, but when I see what direction you've taken Atlantis in - I'm beginning to wonder why I've been so patient. I know, I know, people prefer SG-1 to Atlantis....But slowly transforming Atlantis into SG-1 isn't the way out. Its called laziness.

Just try a new approach.

Please?

If any of the stargate writers actually got around to reading this, thanks much.:cool:

kymeric
February 3rd, 2008, 04:44 PM
Anti thread retread, move along.

Col.Foley
February 3rd, 2008, 04:44 PM
C'mon writers, just bring Beckett back. He was one of the best characters on Atlantis and it was a stupid mistake to write him out. So just bring him back to season five as a full-time doc again and maybe we'll forgive you.

And stop writing Sam as Weir. And stop introducing new characters to replace old ones just because you can't think of where to go with them. Think of something, or hire more writers, and stop re-using SG-1 stories. I've been looking through the various seasons of Atlantis and have seen just how many episodes could have been written as SG-1 episodes, and a lot have already been done on SG-1. And another thing, what the hell did you do to Michael?! He was an ace character before you guys turned him into Dr Evil!! :mad: What the hell was that about?

I honestly think that its an insult that you've tried to make Atlantis 'darker' by making it a bit more violent, and tried to explore new depths of scifi by destroying characters who actually had character development at one point by having them 'run around an underground lair with an evil army of bugs'. I was chatting to a friend before about how SGA comes across as being the holder of all of SG-1's rejected storylines. Surely you can see that.

So this a plea from me to you, please please please surprise us with season five. Make it far better than the rest, make it different and stunning and add something that will make us all go 'THAT'S NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE...!:eek:' in every episode. It is possible. Stop making it like SG-1 by adding old foes (replicators) and bringing in people from Earth to spice it up a little bit (Sam). Take it into a different direction, you've experimented with gate travel on SG-1...We already know that the stargate can take people to other worlds....Just try something new is all I'm asking.:mckay:

Is that seriously too much to ask? I've been watching Stargate for ten years, but when I see what direction you've taken Atlantis in - I'm beginning to wonder why I've been so patient. I know, I know, people prefer SG-1 to Atlantis....But slowly transforming Atlantis into SG-1 isn't the way out. Its called laziness.

Just try a new approach.

Please?

If any of the stargate writers actually got around to reading this, thanks much.:cool:
Clears throat. Umm.... Mapp, they are doing most of it, and not doing some of the bad you mentioned, or those things are matters of personal opinion. Agree with you on the Reps though.

jelgate
February 3rd, 2008, 04:45 PM
Anti thread retread, move along.LMAO so true

P-90_177
February 3rd, 2008, 05:07 PM
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

*Clears throat.*

Ahem............dear writers..........Please ignore everything mapp said. Atlantis is awesome.........nuff said.

Col.Foley
February 3rd, 2008, 05:28 PM
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

*Clears throat.*

Ahem............dear writers..........Please ignore everything mapp said. Atlantis is awesome.........nuff said.
Great! We have support!
:lol:

PG15
February 3rd, 2008, 05:57 PM
C'mon writers, just bring Beckett back. He was one of the best characters on Atlantis and it was a stupid mistake to write him out. So just bring him back to season five as a full-time doc again and maybe we'll forgive you.


Ok.

Mitchell82
February 3rd, 2008, 06:02 PM
C'mon writers, just bring Beckett back. He was one of the best characters on Atlantis and it was a stupid mistake to write him out. So just bring him back to season five as a full-time doc again and maybe we'll forgive you.
I disagree. Beckett becoming full time caused the problem to begin with. He was in way too many eps. Bringing him back full time won't happen but he will likely be back as a recurring character.


And stop writing Sam as Weir. And stop introducing new characters to replace old ones just because you can't think of where to go with them.
They havent done that. Carter has not been written as Weir IMO.


Think of something, or hire more writers, and stop re-using SG-1 stories. I've been looking through the various seasons of Atlantis and have seen just how many episodes could have been written as SG-1 episodes, and a lot have already been done on SG-1.
I disagree. Some stories are similar but not carbon copies.


And another thing, what the hell did you do to Michael?! He was an ace character before you guys turned him into Dr Evil!! :mad: What the hell was that about?
What? I'm sorry I don't see the comparison.


I honestly think that its an insult that you've tried to make Atlantis 'darker' by making it a bit more violent, and tried to explore new depths of scifi by destroying characters who actually had character development at one point by having them 'run around an underground lair with an evil army of bugs'. I was chatting to a friend before about how SGA comes across as being the holder of all of SG-1's rejected storylines. Surely you can see that.
No I don't see it.


So this a plea from me to you, please please please surprise us with season five. Make it far better than the rest, make it different and stunning and add something that will make us all go 'THAT'S NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE...!:eek:' in every episode. It is possible. Stop making it like SG-1 by adding old foes (replicators) and bringing in people from Earth to spice it up a little bit (Sam). Take it into a different direction, you've experimented with gate travel on SG-1...We already know that the stargate can take people to other worlds....Just try something new is all I'm asking.:mckay:
THey already are doing that. They have not turned this into SG-1.


Is that seriously too much to ask? I've been watching Stargate for ten years, but when I see what direction you've taken Atlantis in - I'm beginning to wonder why I've been so patient. I know, I know, people prefer SG-1 to Atlantis....But slowly transforming Atlantis into SG-1 isn't the way out. Its called laziness.

Just try a new approach.

Please?

If any of the stargate writers actually got around to reading this, thanks much.:cool:

I disagree. <snip....folks this is a DISCUSSION thread, so discuss and respect those that want to discuss>

ToasterOnFire
February 3rd, 2008, 06:19 PM
C'mon writers, just bring Beckett back. He was one of the best characters on Atlantis and it was a stupid mistake to write him out. So just bring him back to season five as a full-time doc again and maybe we'll forgive you.
I think you may be getting your wish, though I have no idea how things will play out.


And stop writing Sam as Weir.
Sam won't be commander of Atlantis anymore in s5, so no worries there. :D


And stop introducing new characters to replace old ones just because you can't think of where to go with them. Think of something, or hire more writers, and stop re-using SG-1 stories.
Plenty of replacements next season, huh? A new commander to replace Carter, a new team member to replace Teyla (if only temporarily), hell even Keller may be replaced later in s5 or even in s6 (if the show is so lucky to get renewed) if Carson comes back. I'm sure TPTB are trying to stay "fresh!" or trying to appeal to viewers with crappy attention spans or scrambling to replace cast members who are occupied in real life. It doesn't add to the solidarity to the show, nor does it help the cast gel, something that TPTB were complaining about at the end of s3.


I honestly think that its an insult that you've tried to make Atlantis 'darker' by making it a bit more violent, and tried to explore new depths of scifi by destroying characters who actually had character development at one point by having them 'run around an underground lair with an evil army of bugs'.
Eh, I can't see SGA as truly darker when TPTB press the Big Reset button when the credits roll. Shep went dark in MC, no mention of it since. Weir was lost to the replicators, no mention of her since. Rodney nearly had Katie die on him and then they broke up, no mention of either since. Ronon had his friends turn on him, no mention of that since. Pattern?



Anti thread retread, move along.
Nope, no anti or pro threads allowed in the s5 subforum. All threads are now open for all sides. So you could actually, you know, rebut or discuss Mapp's statements and add something to the dialog. Or you could just make petulant comments that add nothing. :rolleyes:


I disagree. There already is an anti thread so take this there.
There is no anti-s5 thread. The mods made it clear that there would be no new anti or pro thread to encourage everyone to get along. You're doing a great job of it, too, trying to dictate who can post where. :rolleyes:

Reiko
February 3rd, 2008, 06:27 PM
I disagree. Beckett becoming full time caused the problem to begin with. He was in way too many eps. Bringing him back full time won't happen but he will likely be back as a recurring character.


How is him being full time the problem to begin with?

And why was he in 'way too many eps'? If I'm correct he wasn't in all of them in both season 2 or 3.

IMHO Keller's in too many episodes this season.

Jackie
February 3rd, 2008, 06:35 PM
C'mon writers, just bring Beckett back. He was one of the best characters on Atlantis and it was a stupid mistake to write him out. So just bring him back to season five as a full-time doc again and maybe we'll forgive you.

And stop writing Sam as Weir. And stop introducing new characters to replace old ones just because you can't think of where to go with them. Think of something, or hire more writers, and stop re-using SG-1 stories. I've been looking through the various seasons of Atlantis and have seen just how many episodes could have been written as SG-1 episodes, and a lot have already been done on SG-1. And another thing, what the hell did you do to Michael?! He was an ace character before you guys turned him into Dr Evil!! :mad: What the hell was that about?

I honestly think that its an insult that you've tried to make Atlantis 'darker' by making it a bit more violent, and tried to explore new depths of scifi by destroying characters who actually had character development at one point by having them 'run around an underground lair with an evil army of bugs'. I was chatting to a friend before about how SGA comes across as being the holder of all of SG-1's rejected storylines. Surely you can see that.

So this a plea from me to you, please please please surprise us with season five. Make it far better than the rest, make it different and stunning and add something that will make us all go 'THAT'S NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE...!:eek:' in every episode. It is possible. Stop making it like SG-1 by adding old foes (replicators) and bringing in people from Earth to spice it up a little bit (Sam). Take it into a different direction, you've experimented with gate travel on SG-1...We already know that the stargate can take people to other worlds....Just try something new is all I'm asking.:mckay:

Is that seriously too much to ask? I've been watching Stargate for ten years, but when I see what direction you've taken Atlantis in - I'm beginning to wonder why I've been so patient. I know, I know, people prefer SG-1 to Atlantis....But slowly transforming Atlantis into SG-1 isn't the way out. Its called laziness.

Just try a new approach.

Please?

If any of the stargate writers actually got around to reading this, thanks much.:cool:

Would have to agree!:)


Anti thread retread, move along.

There is no anti thread! This is also a thread about the writing...which I agree is way under par.


NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

*Clears throat.*

Ahem............dear writers..........Please ignore everything mapp said. Atlantis is awesome.........nuff said.

Yep, ignore everything that many fans have been screaming about and watch season 6 get non renewed!


I disagree. Beckett becoming full time caused the problem to begin with. He was in way too many eps. Bringing him back full time won't happen but he will likely be back as a recurring character.

There already is an anti thread so take this there.

Beckett was added on as a regular in season 2 and had a very good arc going till they toasted him with an exploding piece of fat.

Adding Beckett WAS NOT a problem and never should be considered one. He was valuable to the wraith story arc and truly needed in the Micheal arc.

The only reason he was let go was to boost ratings and send the fans into a frenzy.




Plenty of replacements next season, huh? A new commander to replace Carter, a new team member to replace Teyla (if only temporarily), hell even Keller may be replaced later in s5 or even in s6 (if the show is so lucky to get renewed) if Carson comes back. I'm sure TPTB are trying to stay "fresh!" or trying to appeal to viewers with crappy attention spans or scrambling to replace cast members who are occupied in real life. It doesn't add to the solidarity to the show, nor does it help the cast gel, something that TPTB were complaining about at the end of s3.


Eh, I can't see SGA as truly darker when TPTB press the Big Reset button when the credits roll. Shep went dark in MC, no mention of it since. Weir was lost to the replicators, no mention of her since. Rodney nearly had Katie die on him and then they broke up, no mention of either since. Ronon had his friends turn on him, no mention of that since. Pattern?

Nope, no anti or pro threads allowed in the s5 subforum. All threads are now open for all sides. So you could actually, you know, rebut or discuss Mapp's statements and add something to the dialog. Or you could just make petulant comments that add nothing. :rolleyes:

There is no anti-s5 thread. The mods made it clear that there would be no new anti or pro thread to encourage everyone to get along. :rolleyes:

Totally agree!

The lack of reaction to the initial action is just so stupefying. Now consequences, no guilt, no real real problem solving to the issues the show brings before it's own arc...not to mention lack of an arc.

No real direction to the show, no real climax or goals set for the show. Nothing!

Rehashing of old scripts, rehashing of scripts that didn't work well the first time. Introductions of more enemies with no real reason as to why this person is an enemy.

The scripts heavily rely on alien technology or what I call "The Genie in a bottle" effect to "Magically" or in SGA's case...'Have McKay" press a bunch of buttons and "poof" its fixed!

Look at that...McKay is a Genie.

Jumper_One
February 3rd, 2008, 06:37 PM
Yep, ignore everything that many fans have been screaming about and watch season 6 get non renewed!

:lol:

erb
February 3rd, 2008, 06:37 PM
How is him being full time the problem to begin with?

And why was he in 'way too many eps'? If I'm correct he wasn't in all of them in both season 2 or 3.

IMHO Keller's in too many episodes this season.

Carson was poorly utilized, but definitely not given too much screentime as far as I'm concerned. As that is a problem with the writing, you would think the solution would be to be more creative.

Would green you if I could.:)

Mitchell82
February 3rd, 2008, 06:53 PM
How is him being full time the problem to begin with?

And why was he in 'way too many eps'? If I'm correct he wasn't in all of them in both season 2 or 3.

IMHO Keller's in too many episodes this season.

In season one he was in 13/20 eps. 12/20 in season 2, and 13 in season 3. Way too many IMO as many he did not need to be in.

PG15
February 3rd, 2008, 07:19 PM
The replacements for next season is out of necessity, not choice.

Will Thorne
February 3rd, 2008, 07:27 PM
I know, I know, people prefer SG-1 to Atlantis....But slowly transforming Atlantis into SG-1 isn't the way out. Its called laziness.


I don't prefer SG-1 to atlantis. In fact, when the two were running at the same time, I preferred Atlantis. Still do.

Chrysalis
February 3rd, 2008, 07:30 PM
The replacements for next season is out of necessity, not choice.

Just a thought, but if they hadn't made the decisions they made by choice, ie: getting rid of Beckett and Weir, which served to do nothing more than stir up fandom and make a lot of people quit watching, they wouldn't be in this predicament.

They could have still had Amanda in guest appearances. They could still have introduced Jewel if they really wanted her, but in a more appropriate part (I could see her as a young captain along the lines of this Alison Porter character. She's much more suited to that than she is to playing a CMO, IMO) Having her there in that sort of role would have meant they wouldn't have had to look around for a replacement for Teyla, if Rachel goes on maternity leave as is predicted.

PG15
February 3rd, 2008, 07:37 PM
That's a nice thought, but it's a slippery slope. Technically, if they never concieved of Atlantis, then they wouldn't have this problem either. See, there's no limit to how far back their decisions go.

We must look forward.

Reiko
February 3rd, 2008, 07:52 PM
Carson was poorly utilized, but definitely not given too much screentime as far as I'm concerned. As that is a problem with the writing, you would think the solution would be to be more creative.

Would green you if I could.:)

:)


In season one he was in 13/20 eps. 12/20 in season 2, and 13 in season 3. Way too many IMO as many he did not need to be in.

Well, it is IMO ;) Anyways, Keller's currently at 9. My bet is she'll make it to 11. Which is pretty close to 12/13.

To me he couldn't have been in enough. Besides, he adds to the dynamic and I find him really cute =] Something Keller doesn't do.

Jackie
February 3rd, 2008, 08:20 PM
Just a thought, but if they hadn't made the decisions they made by choice, ie: getting rid of Beckett and Weir, which served to do nothing more than stir up fandom and make a lot of people quit watching, they wouldn't be in this predicament.

They could have still had Amanda in guest appearances. They could still have introduced Jewel if they really wanted her, but in a more appropriate part (I could see her as a young captain along the lines of this Alison Porter character. She's much more suited to that than she is to playing a CMO, IMO) Having her there in that sort of role would have meant they wouldn't have had to look around for a replacement for Teyla, if Rachel goes on maternity leave as is predicted.

Good example of poor management skills. Beckett and Wier were in fact selling points of their product. A product that already had issues to begin with. Poor over all story arc, many filler eps and a few ep that were real stink bombs...like Irresistible.

The last thing you want to do is take away your selling points when you have a product that already has issues. They just created more issues and never addressed the issues already there.

It reminds me of when Coke tried to replace the formula and introduced...New Coke...and the sales tanked because it wasn't the product the customers were used to buying. Of course, Coke fixed it real fast...after losing millions in sales.

Now we got New Atlantis and the formula just isn't working for my taste buds. But I'm not sure what the new formula will come out as with SGA.

Heaven
February 3rd, 2008, 08:41 PM
mappalazarou, I understand your frustration and identify.
I think the spoilers for this season will probably be the deciding factor for me.
I wasn't sure whether to give season 4 a chance, but the way it turned out,
if spoilers for season 5 don't bode for considerable change, I'm going to give up on stargate after 11 faithful years
one or two enjoyable episodes a year isn't enough to keep me going

ToasterOnFire
February 3rd, 2008, 08:56 PM
Now we got New Atlantis and the formula just isn't working for my taste buds. But I'm not sure what the new formula will come out as with SGA.
Lots of shake ups these past 4 years. Maybe if I stick around long enough I'll luck out on a formula where I can start loving the show again. Each season is like rolling dice. Or spinning the Wheel of Fortune. Come on, big money! :D

Jackie
February 3rd, 2008, 09:02 PM
Lots of shake ups these past 4 years. Maybe if I stick around long enough I'll luck out on a formula where I can start loving the show again. Each season is like rolling dice. Or spinning the Wheel of Fortune. Come on, big money! :D

LOL...I don't know about the show "spinning the wheel of fortune." More like Russian Roulette. ;) So far no bullet in the chamber...not sure what type of revolver they are playing with. If it's a six shooter...they have a 50/50 chance of shooting themselves.

Myles
February 3rd, 2008, 09:07 PM
mappalazarou, I understand your frustration and identify.
I think the spoilers for this season will probably be the deciding factor for me.
I wasn't sure whether to give season 4 a chance, but the way it turned out,
if spoilers for season 5 don't bode for considerable change, I'm going to give up on stargate after 11 faithful years
one or two enjoyable episodes a year isn't enough to keep me going

2 enjoyable episodes? You a hard one to please. I've personally enjoyed 10 episodes so far and I think I'm going to like 4 more. Season 4 has been much better then 2 or 3, imo, and I'm looking forward to season 5.

ToasterOnFire
February 3rd, 2008, 09:21 PM
It's all subjective, of course. So far I'd only rewatch 3, maybe 4 of the eps in s4. That's less than s3 and s2, and far far less than s1.


LOL...I don't know about the show "spinning the wheel of fortune." More like Russian Roulette. ;) So far no bullet in the chamber...not sure what type of revolver they are playing with. If it's a six shooter...they have a 50/50 chance of shooting themselves.
Are they aiming at themselves though? Because a lot of actors have been "shot" along the way... :S

Briangate78
February 3rd, 2008, 09:34 PM
What was wrong with Season 4? I thought the character moments were great. Even Weir got a new story direction they are bringing back next season. They faced bigger challenges. I also think the best of this season is yet to come. I predict by the time "The Last Man" airs, a lot of folks are going to be very impressed with the writing.

Also, since I've seen the inside numbers for the viewers and whatnot compared to last season and this season, people are NOT losing interest. But this is not the thread to discuss that.

All I want from the writers next season is..

1.) Carson Beckett back in a recurring role
2.) A leader that can be more than just a supportive role sorta how Weir was. Carter only filled one of Weir's shoes, imo

3.) Weir returns for a decent amount of eps to continue this very interesting story arc they introduced. Don't make her development go in vain.

4.) More Team eps. I want to see the 4-person team together like we used to.

5.) More Exploration of the pegasus galaxy. Are there more allies and technology out there?

Everything else, I am cool with.

ToasterOnFire
February 3rd, 2008, 09:45 PM
What was wrong with Season 4? I thought the character moments were great. Even Weir got a new story direction they are bringing back next season. They faced bigger challenges. I also think the best of this season is yet to come. I predict by the time "The Last Man" airs, a lot of folks are going to be very impressed with the writing.
The last 4 eps could be great, best ever, I'm talking "Storm/Eye" fantastic, but sadly that won't be enough to erase a mediocre season for me. I had lots of problems with the season, most of which you've read elsewhere so I won't repost them here.


Also, since I've seen the inside numbers for the viewers and whatnot compared to last season and this season, people are NOT losing interest. But this is not the thread to discuss that.
Agreed, this is the wrong thread for whipping out those numbers. :D But here's something to think about - I'm losing interest in the show but right now I'm still watching. The numbers could be holding steady because people are still interested in the show, people are losing interest but haven't left yet, or people are bored but don't have any new network shows to watch. ;)

Briangate78
February 3rd, 2008, 09:50 PM
The last 4 eps could be great, best ever, I'm talking "Storm/Eye" fantastic, but sadly that won't be enough to erase a mediocre season for me. I had lots of problems with the season, most of which you've read elsewhere so I won't repost them here.


Yeah I have read your posts, and quite honestly sometimes I think you sorta like this season. :p


Agreed, this is the wrong thread for whipping out those numbers. :D But here's something to think about - I'm losing interest in the show but right now I'm still watching. The numbers could be holding steady because people are still interested in the show, people are losing interest but haven't left yet, or people are bored but don't have any new network shows to watch. ;)

Depending on this cast news, it could either help or hurt the show. Well people who don't like Carter will be happy. People who want Beckett back will be very happy, and people who hate Keller will not be happy but might be happy if Carson is back. People who want a new leader will be happy, but people who love Carter won't be happy. :S Ok I think I lost myself at "cast news" :S :p

Mitchell82
February 4th, 2008, 12:38 AM
:)



Well, it is IMO ;) Anyways, Keller's currently at 9. My bet is she'll make it to 11. Which is pretty close to 12/13.

To me he couldn't have been in enough. Besides, he adds to the dynamic and I find him really cute =] Something Keller doesn't do.

I loved Carson too so don't get the wrong idea. There were just some eps he was in that didn't need him. The Ark and Trinity for example. He did add alot to the show and I'm glad he could be in season five. I do disagree on Keller though.

Madeleine
February 4th, 2008, 02:16 AM
Anti thread retread, move along.

Nope, this thread appears to be an open discussion thread, and the fact that it was initiated with criticismes and complaints does not preclude dissenters from arguing politely, as is their wont :)

SG13-NightOps
February 4th, 2008, 03:11 AM
Nope. I am thoroughly enjoying their story as they see fit to write it.

While we are at it, lets write to JK Rowling and tell her she has to rewrite the whole last book because the fans wont like it.

If I stopped liking, I'd stop watching, but I would never presume to try and tell a writer how to write his own book.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 06:11 AM
I disagree. Beckett becoming full time caused the problem to begin with. He was in way too many eps. Bringing him back full time won't happen but he will likely be back as a recurring character.

How was that a problem? Carson was one of the best written characters on the show! He had a fun personality, an ace sense of humour, and was damn good at his job. He was loved by the other characters on the show as well as the audience and I for one loved it each time he went on about his turtles back home.:cameron: That's realistic and beautiful writing.


They havent done that. Carter has not been written as Weir IMO.
I've seen every episode of season four that has aired, and in each scene Carter appears it just seems like they got together all of the scripts for SGA, crossed out 'Elizabeth' and crudely put 'Sam' in just above it.

I disagree. Some stories are similar but not carbon copies.

They already are doing that. They have not turned this into SG-1.
They've simply taken the basis for certain SG-1 episodes and inserted things from Atlantis so that it fits in. I find it disturbing that episodes like Doppelganger, Travelers, Missing, Millers Crossing, Harmony, The Real World, Phantoms, Irresistable, Irresponsible, and The Ark could have been just so easily written as SG-1 episodes if they replaced a few names and locations. SGA has potential to be one of the best scifi shows on television, and I for one would like to see something in the series that makes it iconic and original - and make it an almost completely seperate entity from SG-1. With a whole different galaxy surrounding Atlantis, why would they wheel in old villains and characters from SG-1 to spice it up when there is simply no need to?



What? I don't see the comparison.
Michael is no longer written as being a heart-broken and betrayed character, but rather as an apparent evil genius intent on being evil just for the sheer thrill of being evil. Why else would he find an evil underground lab and create an army of giant bugs?


Carson was poorly utilized, but definitely not given too much screentime as far as I'm concerned. As that is a problem with the writing, you would think the solution would be to be more creative.

Which is all that I'm asking.


mappalazarou, I understand your frustration and identify.
I think the spoilers for this season will probably be the deciding factor for me.
I wasn't sure whether to give season 4 a chance, but the way it turned out,
if spoilers for season 5 don't bode for considerable change, I'm going to give up on stargate after 11 faithful years
one or two enjoyable episodes a year isn't enough to keep me going

The reason I watch is to maybe witness an episode that will make me suddenly think 'Wow, that was actually pretty damn spectacular' like I did when I first saw some particular SG-1 episodes (There But For The Grace Of God, The Fifth Race, Serpents Song, 1969, Legacy, Point of View, Urgo, Crystal Skull, Nemesis, The Other Side, Upgrades, Window of Opportunity, Absolute Power, Meridian, Abyss, Unnatural Selection, etc...).

And no, that wasn't an invite to start writing SGA like SG-1. SG-1 was ace because it was unique and original. That's what I'm hoping Atlantis can be.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 06:14 AM
If I stopped liking, I'd stop watching, but I would never presume to try and tell a writer how to write his own book.

Hmmm. I think that I have such high-standards for which shows I watch, and have always been hoping for a show with SGA's potential to reach that high peak of television ectasy.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 06:30 AM
All I want from the writers next season is..

1.) Carson Beckett back in a recurring role
2.) A leader that can be more than just a supportive role sorta how Weir was. Carter only filled one of Weir's shoes, imo

3.) Weir returns for a decent amount of eps to continue this very interesting story arc they introduced. Don't make her development go in vain.

I agree with this. I don't want the story arc to end after just one episode either. Let's have it play out a little, expand what it can do and where it can go and maybe take it away from revolving solely on the ancients and the asurans. Because, in all honesty, the ancients have been done to death and the Asurans are very, very boring (no sense of humour or personality and mad plot for revenge against all humankind = boring element of storytelling).


4.) More Team eps. I want to see the 4-person team together like we used to.

This I have to disagree with. It just takes us back in the direction of SG-1 and I just really want another new direction for Atlantis to step in.


5.) More Exploration of the pegasus galaxy. Are there more allies and technology out there?

Isn't that the basis for a stargate show anyway? That story factor I don't mind, but I would like to see more scary and mysterious baddies (unlike the wraith who are just vampires in space who go 'grrr!' at humans for no reason or the asurans...who are just the replicators...:mckay: ). If they insist on doing stand-alone episodes then they should at least put the time and effort into making thier adversaries as exciting and unpredictable as they can, and actually have us, the audience, worry about our heroes by actually lowering the setting of thier character shields and putting them into some real danger for once. I'd like to see an episode where I'll go '...wait...Shepherd might not actually get out of this one :eek: '.

Briangate78
February 4th, 2008, 07:00 AM
I agree with this. I don't want the story arc to end after just one episode either. Let's have it play out a little, expand what it can do and where it can go and maybe take it away from revolving solely on the ancients and the asurans. Because, in all honesty, the ancients have been done to death and the Asurans are very, very boring (no sense of humour or personality and mad plot for revenge against all humankind = boring element of storytelling).



This I have to disagree with. It just takes us back in the direction of SG-1 and I just really want another new direction for Atlantis to step in.





You know, now that I think about it, this is a nice different direction. It is like one week it is Keller and Teyla, then one week it is Sheppard and Mckay, the most recent episode had Sheppard and Ronon. It is kind of interesting they do that. I think SGA has truly become it's own show. The characters have made a big influence in the difference of both Stargates.

Well as per Season 4 overall, great season to me, but Season 3 is still the best. That could change though after the last 5 eps. Season 3 had 3/5 great eps towards the end, imo. Season 4 could easily top that.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 07:16 AM
You know, now that I think about it, this is a nice different direction. It is like one week it is Keller and Teyla, then one week it is Sheppard and Mckay, the most recent episode had Sheppard and Ronon. It is kind of interesting they do that. I think SGA has truly become it's own show. The characters have made a big influence in the difference of both Stargates.

A lot of the characters don't actually bring anything to the show though, take Teyla and Ronan for example. They're written to be two of the most boring individuals in the entire gate-verse. I'm not blaming the actors, I'm blaming the crappy dialogue that they have to act out. Sure, so they've expanded on Teyla by making her pregnant - why did that take four seasons to think up? And sure, Ronan gets a good episode every now and then (I can only actually think of Sateda to be honest), but its not enough.

Ronan's entire planet was culled by the wraith (or destroyed or something), and yet he has no emotions regarding that at all!! He struts around Atlantis pointing his gun at people (no inuendo intended), and thats it. Realistically within the boundaries of gate-verse (accepting that the wraith are actually there), he should be an emotional wreck who constantly mourns the death of his people, friends and family...but he doesn't, and if he does - why the hell is it never shown??

Getting Ronan to ignore the fact that his entire planet was wiped out to add coolness to his character is not good writing. I don't understand why they came up with his backstory is all they do, in every episode he's in, is ignore it.

kymeric
February 4th, 2008, 07:20 AM
Nope, no anti or pro threads allowed in the s5 subforum. All threads are now open for all sides. So you could actually, you know, rebut or discuss Mapp's statements and add something to the dialog. Or you could just make petulant comments that add nothing.



But........ it rhymed!

kymeric
February 4th, 2008, 07:22 AM
A lot of the characters don't actually bring anything to the show though, take Teyla and Ronan for example. They're written to be two of the most boring individuals in the entire gate-verse. I'm not blaming the actors, I'm blaming the crappy dialogue that they have to act out. Sure, so they've expanded on Teyla by making her pregnant - why did that take four seasons to think up? And sure, Ronan gets a good episode every now and then (I can only actually think of Sateda to be honest), but its not enough.

Ronan's entire planet was culled by the wraith (or destroyed or something), and yet he has no emotions regarding that at all!! He struts around Atlantis pointing his gun at people (no inuendo intended), and thats it. Realistically within the boundaries of gate-verse (accepting that the wraith are actually there), he should be an emotional wreck who constantly mourns the death of his people, friends and family...but he doesn't, and if he does - why the hell is it never shown??

Getting Ronan to ignore the fact that his entire planet was wiped out to add coolness to his character is not good writing. I don't understand why they came up with his backstory is all they do, in every episode he's in, is ignore it.

Actually theres at least 300 satedans out there, not including all the new satedans bred over the last 7+ years. As i recall Rhonin reacted to the discovery by getting drunk and tearing up to Teyla....then killing one of them ^.^


Michael is no longer written as being a heart-broken and betrayed character, but rather as an apparent evil genius intent on being evil just for the sheer thrill of being evil. Why else would he find an evil underground lab and create an army of giant bugs?
Self defense. The Wraith are out to get him and the humans are out to get him. In the 2nd ep of season 2 he said he had to find his own way apart from both sides. He seems to have made alot of a critter thats more formidable than the wraith, physically anyways. If they are smart and self reproducing they will be worse than the wraith. And of course they will turn on michael eventually, dont they always in these circumstances?

Raven56
February 4th, 2008, 07:27 AM
This is so strange to me, mostly because I find this to be one of the best seasons yet. And I have to cross-post something that came up on another thread, which I believe ties in perfectly here (Mods - if this is a no-no, please feel free to remove this :) )
From the other thread:

You're right.. .TPTB can't satiafy everbody.... but they don't have to! They had a good show and then they go on changing it.. They tried to satisfy SG-1 fans. Have they gotten anything in return? No. They got sucky ratings and a bunch of angry fans.
My response:

Funny, I think the show is better than ever. And therein is the entire basis for the post - what you hate, I love. What I dislike, you adore. To satisfy me, they push you away. To make you happy, they leave me cold. C'est la vie - or is it c'est la guerre?
So, there you have it: the attitude seems to be that they don't have to satisfy everybody, just me, me, me! I'm the one who should be driving where the show goes!!!!!! Those who don't agree with me that everything is 'orrible can take a flying leap through a spinning spacegate.

I'm NOT saying that everything is perfect! What I am saying is that everyone has their own likes and dislikes, and we ALL have to realize that we as individuals are not the center of the universe.

Even funnier, what most people have posted as the things they absolutely hate and are destroying the show for them are the things that I've quite liked.

I will say I miss Carson, and IMO they could have just dropped his character back to a smaller footprint instead of replacing him, but again, I'm not going to second-guess what happened. Sometimes what is said is not the entire story, and I'm more into giving the benefit of the doubt when things happen that I don't like. There isn't much that would make me quit watching. Heck, I weathered Daniel's disappearance on SG-1, so I could handle just about anything here.

Every season so far has had 3-4 episodes I could have done without. This season has only had 2 so far, and I can't think that the last 5 are going to disappoint.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 07:27 AM
Actually theres at least 300 satedans out there, not including all the new satedans bred over the last 7+ years. As i recall Rhonin reacted to the discovery by getting drunk and tearing up to Teyla....then killing one of them ^.^

...That's it? :S So....your entire homeworld is destroyed along with most of your pals and all of your family, and you get drunk, tear up and kill someone...:S And its never mentioned again >.>

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 07:32 AM
This is so strange to me, mostly because I find this to be one of the best seasons yet. And I have to cross-post something that came up on another thread, which I believe ties in perfectly here (Mods - if this is a no-no, please feel free to remove this :) )
From the other thread:

My response:
So, there you have it: the attitude seems to be that they don't have to satisfy everybody, just me, me, me! I'm the one who should be driving where the show goes!!!!!! Those who don't agree with me that everything is 'orrible can take a flying leap through a spinning spacegate.

I'm NOT saying that everything is perfect! What I am saying is that everyone has their own likes and dislikes, and we ALL have to realize that we as individuals are not the center of the universe.

Even funnier, what most people have posted as the things they absolutely hate and are destroying the show for them are the things that I've quite liked.

I will say I miss Carson, and IMO they could have just dropped his character back to a smaller footprint instead of replacing him, but again, I'm not going to second-guess what happened. Sometimes what is said is not the entire story, and I'm more into giving the benefit of the doubt when things happen that I don't like. There isn't much that would make me quit watching. Heck, I weathered Daniel's disappearance on SG-1, so I could handle just about anything here.

Every season so far has had 3-4 episodes I could have done without. This season has only had 2 so far, and I can't think that the last 5 are going to disappoint.
I am curious to see what they'll do to destroy Michael's character this time...:rolleyes: Will the giant army of bugs return to aid him in taking over Atlantis? :cameron::cameron::cameron::cameron:

Briangate78
February 4th, 2008, 07:59 AM
A lot of the characters don't actually bring anything to the show though, take Teyla and Ronan for example. They're written to be two of the most boring individuals in the entire gate-verse. I'm not blaming the actors, I'm blaming the crappy dialogue that they have to act out. Sure, so they've expanded on Teyla by making her pregnant - why did that take four seasons to think up? And sure, Ronan gets a good episode every now and then (I can only actually think of Sateda to be honest), but its not enough.

Ronan's entire planet was culled by the wraith (or destroyed or something), and yet he has no emotions regarding that at all!! He struts around Atlantis pointing his gun at people (no inuendo intended), and thats it. Realistically within the boundaries of gate-verse (accepting that the wraith are actually there), he should be an emotional wreck who constantly mourns the death of his people, friends and family...but he doesn't, and if he does - why the hell is it never shown??

Getting Ronan to ignore the fact that his entire planet was wiped out to add coolness to his character is not good writing. I don't understand why they came up with his backstory is all they do, in every episode he's in, is ignore it.

Hmm I agree about Teyla, but she has had her moments this season like in "Missing" and "Spoils of War". As per Ronon, I disagree? Did you see the episode "Sateda" or "Reunion"? Some very powerful eps in my opinion. I don't know I think people want more in character development or they are looking for something different. I think the character development has been great, with the exception of Teyla, but she is starting to come around.

I think the SGA characters can be more dynamic than the SG-1 characters.

P-90_177
February 4th, 2008, 08:05 AM
Hmm I agree about Teyla, but she has had her moments this season like in "Missing" and "Spoils of War". As per Ronon, I disagree? Did you see the episode "Sateda" or "Reunion"? Some very powerful eps in my opinion. I don't know I think people want more in character development or they are looking for something different. I think the character development has been great, with the exception of Teyla, but she is starting to come around.


Completely agree. Ronon has been given some of the best moments of any character in the series. At the minute the only underused characters are Teyla and Carter.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 08:06 AM
Hmm I agree about Teyla, but she has had her moments this season like in "Missing" and "Spoils of War". As per Ronon, I disagree? Did you see the episode "Sateda" or "Reunion"? Some very powerful eps in my opinion. I don't know I think people want more in character development or they are looking for something different. I think the character development has been great, with the exception of Teyla, but she is starting to come around.

I think the SGA characters can be more dynamic than the SG-1 characters.

I mentioned Sateda as being probably the only episode which hints that Ronan may be a tiny bit upset about the death of his people, but Reunion was one of the worst episodes of stargate I have ever seen. To have a group of Ronan's people come back only to work with the wraith was a terrible and predictable story idea, and it didn't work because taking a character who already has personality and sense of humour issues and giving him his own episode without developing them even a tiny bit was a bad choice tptb made.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 08:06 AM
Completely agree. Ronon has been given some of the best moments of any character in the series.

When? :)

P-90_177
February 4th, 2008, 08:12 AM
When? :)

Runner, Sateda, Reunion are of course the main ones. He also had some great moments in Michael, Inferno, Phantoms, Tao of Rodney, Sunday, Adrift, Doppelganger, Tabula Rasa, Quarantine and also the last episode Outcast.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 08:15 AM
Runner, Sateda, Reunion are of course the main ones. He also had some great moments in Michael, Inferno, Phantoms, Tao of Rodney, Sunday, Adrift, Doppelganger, Tabula Rasa, Quarantine and also the last episode Outcast.

....Like? :)

P-90_177
February 4th, 2008, 08:16 AM
....Like? :)

Are you asking what the great moments in each of those episodes were are or are you just being awkward now?

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 08:20 AM
Are you asking what the great moments in each of those episodes were are or are you just being awkward now?

I want Ronan's best moments in a list...and I'll decide whether I think that they're good writing or not.

Briangate78
February 4th, 2008, 08:23 AM
I mentioned Sateda as being probably the only episode which hints that Ronan may be a tiny bit upset about the death of his people, but Reunion was one of the worst episodes of stargate I have ever seen. To have a group of Ronan's people come back only to work with the wraith was a terrible and predictable story idea, and it didn't work because taking a character who already has personality and sense of humour issues and giving him his own episode without developing them even a tiny bit was a bad choice tptb made.

Do you know the part in Adrift when Ronon stands over Weir's bedside? That was likely one of the most powerful moments in the SGA series, imo. If you did not feel anything from that, I don't know what to say.

As per Reunion, I think what made it powerful was that Ronon thought his friends from Sateda were honest, proud, and honorable people. Ronon would die before becoming a Wraith worshipper or to even work for the Wraith. What made me respect Ronon more, was realizing people from Sateda are not better friends than people from Atlantis. Ronon was betrayed by his own people, and saw they were not honorable.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 08:32 AM
Do you know the part in Adrift when Ronon stands over Weir's bedside? That was likely one of the most powerful moments in the SGA series, imo. If you did not feel anything from that, I don't know what to say.
Admittedly, after having just now watched that particular scene from the episode, that scene wasn't too bad at all. It had nice music, almost tear-worthy dialogue, etc. My main problem is that they didn't pick up on it later, as in the later episodes we don't see Ronan mourning over Elizabeth (as he neglects to do so for his own people).

As per Reunion, I think what made it powerful was that Ronon thought his friends from Sateda were honest, proud, and honorable people. Ronon would die before becoming a Wraith worshipper or to even work for the Wraith. What made me respect Ronon more, was realizing people from Sateda are not better friends than people from Atlantis. Ronon was betrayed by his own people, and saw they were not honorable.

And yet it brought zero character development afterwards, as the events of the episode were forgotten in the next episode and Ronan gained nothing from it.

Briangate78
February 4th, 2008, 08:46 AM
Admittedly, after having just now watched that particular scene from the episode, that scene wasn't too bad at all. It had nice music, almost tear-worthy dialogue, etc. My main problem is that they didn't pick up on it later, as in the later episodes we don't see Ronan mourning over Elizabeth (as he neglects to do so for his own people).




Actually they did in Reunion. When Carter denies Ronon's request. Ronon makes a comment, "DR. Weir would". Carter answers back "I am not Dr. Weir". That was yet a good character moment with how Ronon felt about Weir, which was total respect. So it continued that moment in "Adrift".

Also, this is something different but sorta the same topic, ...

When Carson returns. I do hope Weir is mentioned. Carson should say, where is Elizabeth or what happened to her. There better be a moment when either John or Rodney says something like "We lost her" . If not I would be a little annoyed.

Briangate78
February 4th, 2008, 08:48 AM
And yet it brought zero character development afterwards, as the events of the episode were forgotten in the next episode and Ronan gained nothing from it.

I think we will see this in "Midway" which is another Ronon episode.

LOL, sorry broke your post into two different posts. :p My bad. :D

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 08:52 AM
Actually they did in Reunion. When Carter denies Ronon's request. Ronon makes a comment, "DR. Weir would". Carter answers back "I am not Dr. Weir". That was yet a good character moment with how Ronon felt about Weir, which was total respect. So it continued that moment in "Adrift".
No, it mentioned something to keep the illusion that they weren't ignoring something. A mention every odd episode doesn't count as a character mourning the loss of another character.

Also, this is something different but sorta the same topic, ...

When Carson returns. I do hope Weir is mentioned. Carson should say, where is Elizabeth or what happened to her. There better be a moment when either John or Rodney says something like "We lost her" . If not I would be a little annoyed.
Yeah we'll probably see something like that...Maybe exactly that, or something like;

:beckett: Whew! Can't wait to get back to Atlantis and see Elizabeth and everyone else!
:teyla: .....
:beckett: .....What?....She get fired or something...?

I think we will see this in "Midway" which is another Ronon episode.

LOL, sorry broke your post into two different posts. :p My bad. :D

I'm actually looking forward to Teal'c unleashing some ownage on the cave man at last. :cameron:

P-90_177
February 4th, 2008, 08:57 AM
No, it mentioned something to keep the illusion that they weren't ignoring something. A mention every odd episode doesn't count as a character mourning the loss of another character.

Yeah we'll probably see something like that...Maybe exactly that, or something like;

:beckett: Whew! Can't wait to get back to Atlantis and see Elizabeth and everyone else!
:teyla: .....
:beckett: .....What?....She get fired or something...?


I'm actually looking forward to Teal'c unleashing some ownage on the cave man at last. :cameron:

Look at the images for the episode...........looks like teal'c gets whooped...........:cameron:

But don't worry. I'm pretty sure it will be a damned even fight.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 09:15 AM
Look at the images for the episode...........looks like teal'c gets whooped...........:cameron:

But don't worry. I'm pretty sure it will be a damned even fight.

If Teal'c gets 'whooped', I'm quitting watching the show.

P-90_177
February 4th, 2008, 09:18 AM
If Teal'c gets 'whooped', I'm quitting watching the show.

keeping in mind that he will be over 100 years old.

AND at the risk of being lynched by Teal'c fans...............

Ronon is sooooo much cooler than Teal'c from the earlier seasons of SG-1 (although at the minute I'd say they were about even........Ronon just has a cooler gun.)

Irish Eyes
February 4th, 2008, 09:23 AM
Do you know the part in Adrift when Ronon stands over Weir's bedside? That was likely one of the most powerful moments in the SGA series, imo. If you did not feel anything from that, I don't know what to say.

I totally agree and would love to see more of this friendship. Oh wait, something is missing... ;)


Admittedly, after having just now watched that particular scene from the episode, that scene wasn't too bad at all. It had nice music, almost tear-worthy dialogue, etc. My main problem is that they didn't pick up on it later, as in the later episodes we don't see Ronan mourning over Elizabeth (as he neglects to do so for his own people).


And I have to agree with this too. Another of my favorite moments in season 4 is when Radek and Rodney discuss Elizabeth and Carson. It doesn't take much to scatter moments like this throughout the episodes and it makes the story that much richer when we actually see how much a character has impacted the others. I think they've made some improvements in this area, but there's still room for more.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 09:39 AM
I totally agree and would love to see more of this friendship. Oh wait, something is missing... ;)



And I have to agree with this too. Another of my favorite moments in season 4 is when Radek and Rodney discuss Elizabeth and Carson. It doesn't take much to scatter moments like this throughout the episodes and it makes the story that much richer when we actually see how much a character has impacted the others. I think they've made some improvements in this area, but there's still room for more.

The characters seem too wooden for me. Outcast made me think that tptb don't actually think about thier stories too much before getting down to the script, and by this I mean that Shepherd's dad and brother should have been mentioned a lot earlier on in the series. Its like they just decided to bring it up to make the episode seem a little more interesting. I bet that his dad and brother will never be brought up fully again.

Lythisrose
February 4th, 2008, 09:43 AM
Re Ronon's emotional state, he was on the run for 7 years before we meet him. In that time he was living on the edge constantly, fighting for his own survival. Raw grief and horror over the loss of his people may have been seared out of him in that time or pushed aside out of necessity; his desire to live outweighing his need to grieve.
He does show that he has regrets over the loss of his previous life (Sateda)and the betrayal by his former friends (Reunion), but existing in a permanent state of despair would have led to his demise years ago. He is a survivor and opening himself up to friendships and connections with others is a luxury he has not been allowed in many years. He is just now coming to that point.

ToasterOnFire
February 4th, 2008, 09:52 AM
My response:
So, there you have it: the attitude seems to be that they don't have to satisfy everybody, just me, me, me! I'm the one who should be driving where the show goes!!!!!!
But TV viewing is inherently selfish. Who's going to watch a show they hate just because everyone else loves it? It all comes down to whether what TPTB are producing is what you happen to like. If they're satisfying me, then no, I don't care that much about everybody else. Likewise, if they're not satisfying me then I don't care that much that everyone else loves it. I'm not demanding for TPTB of any show to cater to me, but if they aren't satisfying me then that's the bottom line.

Yeah I have read your posts, and quite honestly sometimes I think you sorta like this season. :p
Oh, there have been eps that I liked and character developments that I liked (or thought that TPTB didn't completely screw up :P). Heck, in most eps I can find something that I enjoyed. Overall though, I've been rather meh toward the season.


Depending on this cast news, it could either help or hurt the show. Well people who don't like Carter will be happy. People who want Beckett back will be very happy, and people who hate Keller will not be happy but might be happy if Carson is back. People who want a new leader will be happy, but people who love Carter won't be happy. :S Ok I think I lost myself at "cast news" :S :p
*headache* :P. Seriously, though, remember that casual viewers won't even know about the announcement today and probably won't realize that there's yet another casting shakeup until skiffy starts mentioning it in SGA ads for s5. Fandom may implode, but it won't have an immediate effect on ratings.


Hmm I agree about Teyla, but she has had her moments this season like in "Missing" and "Spoils of War". As per Ronon, I disagree? Did you see the episode "Sateda" or "Reunion"? Some very powerful eps in my opinion. I don't know I think people want more in character development or they are looking for something different.
I prefer character development that 1) extends beyond the major ep (seeing more of Shep dealing with what he did in MC post-MC, seeing Ronon show some indication that he's upset about his friends post-Reunion, etc) and 2) extends to lots of characters in each ep (think A and B plots - like in Missing we could have seen Shep/McKay/Carter as a B plot or in Outcast we could have seen Rodney/Teyla as a B plot). I guess I'd like more consistency overall, instead of say, featuring Teyla's pregnancy in SAW and Quarantine and then not even having her appear in the last 2 eps.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 09:58 AM
Re Ronon's emotional state, he was on the run for 7 years before we meet him. In that time he was living on the edge constantly, fighting for his own survival. Raw grief and horror over the loss of his people may have been seared out of him in that time or pushed aside out of necessity; his desire to live outweighing his need to grieve.
He does show that he has regrets over the loss of his previous life (Sateda)and the betrayal by his former friends (Reunion), but existing in a permanent state of despair would have led to his demise years ago. He is a survivor and opening himself up to friendships and connections with others is a luxury he has not been allowed in many years. He is just now coming to that point.

I don't like the simplicity. The human mind is a complex thing, and one person cannot have complete control over thier emotions. They wouldn't be able to control the sadness, the anger, the despair which burns inside them, not even the highest trained military officer could get through what Ronan did without so much as a tear of remorse. Its realism, and every series which features humans should at least feature real human emotions and reactions to certain things. Ronan doesn't have that, although admitted in 'Sateda', at least in the flashbacks, it showed Ronan upset as his girlfriend got toasted by the wraith.

Its not enough though. He's in every, or almost every, episode and the trauma of escaping the destruction of his homeworld, being hunted by the wraith whilst being taunted by the memories of the ones he lost should be enough to have a good emotion-filled story arc that runs through the entire series, and not something that appears in a scene once every dozen or so episodes.

Irish Eyes
February 4th, 2008, 10:08 AM
The characters seem too wooden for me. Outcast made me think that tptb don't actually think about thier stories too much before getting down to the script, and by this I mean that Shepherd's dad and brother should have been mentioned a lot earlier on in the series. Its like they just decided to bring it up to make the episode seem a little more interesting. I bet that his dad and brother will never be brought up fully again.

I agree that things seem to come out of the blue sometimes, and that is where a show bible would come in handy. Some stuff that has happened in season 4 should have happened much sooner IMO.

Lythisrose
February 4th, 2008, 10:09 AM
I don't like the simplicity. The human mind is a complex thing, and one person cannot have complete control over thier emotions. They wouldn't be able to control the sadness, the anger, the despair which burns inside them, not even the highest trained military officer could get through what Ronan did without so much as a tear of remorse. Its realism, and every series which features humans should at least feature real human emotions and reactions to certain things. Ronan doesn't have that, although admitted in 'Sateda', at least in the flashbacks, it showed Ronan upset as his girlfriend got toasted by the wraith.

Its not enough though. He's in every, or almost every, episode and the trauma of escaping the destruction of his homeworld, being hunted by the wraith whilst being taunted by the memories of the ones he lost should be enough to have a good emotion-filled story arc that runs through the entire series, and not something that appears in a scene once every dozen or so episodes.

I think different people respond differently to tragedy and loss. I can't see how Ronon could have functioned effectively if his grief continued to be so close to the surface and ever-present in his mind. It might be denial or repression, but he needed to move on to survive. At least this is how I see it, and I have seen a variety people post severe trauma, some are broken, others struggle, and some do manage to cope with life fairly well.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 10:29 AM
I agree that things seem to come out of the blue sometimes, and that is where a show bible would come in handy. Some stuff that has happened in season 4 should have happened much sooner IMO.

I think that before they even started to make the first episodes of Atlantis, they should have sat back and wrote and rewrote the backgrounds for the characters, making sure to get thier family, friends and allies planned out as well as spending time to create thier personalities over a collection of months.


I think different people respond differently to tragedy and loss. I can't see how Ronon could have functioned effectively if his grief continued to be so close to the surface and ever-present in his mind. It might be denial or repression, but he needed to move on to survive. At least this is how I see it, and I have seen a variety people post severe trauma, some are broken, others struggle, and some do manage to cope with life fairly well.

My point is that I think that Ronan would be a far more interesting character if his grief and regret became a constant element in Atlantis. Why even mention the loss of the Satedan people when they aren't willing to own up and give it the loyalty it deserves? If you're going to have someone as a main character in the series who escaped a mass genocide, and if you're aiming to make the series darker (which is what they said was going to happen for season four), then expand on the dark elements with creativity but keep that flare of realism.

I think that its far more entertaining to watch 'real' humans going through thier day to day lives on Atlantis, facing death on daily basis instead of the wooden and even 'cartoon'-like characters we have written to be constantly protected by thier character shields until the writers can't think of anywhere to go with them and write them out (Like Weir and Beckett), and bring in a familiar faces to, as I've said before, 'spice things up a bit'.

ciannwn
February 4th, 2008, 10:35 AM
Sure, so they've expanded on Teyla by making her pregnant - why did that take four seasons to think up?

Teyla's pregnancy explains her ever increasing bump in the front due to Rachel Luttrell's real life pregnancy. As Teyla is an action adventure character who likes wearing revealing clothing they couldn't really put her in baggy dresses and hide her behind furniture all the time.

Lythisrose
February 4th, 2008, 10:37 AM
My point is that I think that Ronan would be a far more interesting character if his grief and regret became a constant element in Atlantis.

Well, with this I can agree, it would be interesting to explore.:)

JohnRico
February 4th, 2008, 10:40 AM
The writers strike has a very good chance of coming to an end this week. Some networks are already preparing to get shows back to work as soon as the announcement happens.

Raven56
February 4th, 2008, 10:46 AM
I think that before they even started to make the first episodes of Atlantis, they should have sat back and wrote and rewrote the backgrounds for the characters, making sure to get thier family, friends and allies planned out as well as spending time to create thier personalities over a collection of months.
Now that would have been extremely useful! It would give the writers something to dip into for continuity of character! Sort of like the old ST:TOS Concordance, with all blueprints and bios, etc., all laid out. Sigh.


My point is that I think that Ronan would be a far more interesting character if his grief and regret became a constant element in Atlantis.

Well, with this I can agree, it would be interesting to explore.:)
On the other side, that would have turned me away from the character - my attitude would have been: for crying out loud, you're not 16 and it's been almost 10 years, get over it already! :)

Jackie
February 4th, 2008, 10:47 AM
I think that before they even started to make the first episodes of Atlantis, they should have sat back and wrote and rewrote the backgrounds for the characters, making sure to get thier family, friends and allies planned out as well as spending time to create thier personalities over a collection of months.



I am actually going to DEFEND the writers on this. Don't fall your chair squallie/Brian.

Writing a script leaves no real room for character redevelopment like it would in the case of writing a novel. the development in script writing comes in action and interaction between the characters.

When writing characters it's really easy to say...just sit down and write the character out. But in reality the character takes on it's own personality and things develop in the character based on interaction with other characters and situations.

Where the show lacks is in those deep emotional interactions that SG-1 had in early seasons.

It would be better if the show would examine the actions of their characters instead of just hopping onto the next big fight scene...that's their mistake.

For the part of knowing the character before filming...they did a good job.

Fir the part of continuing that development...they fell flat on.

I don't believe sitting down for a few months to "hammer out" the characters would have helped. The formula starts the same. Basic background story, basic personality to the character.

IMO the mistake lies in not following through after having eps as powerful as MC and just dropping the subject because the shows writers would rather not talk about the very situation they created.

Raven56
February 4th, 2008, 10:47 AM
But TV viewing is inherently selfish. Who's going to watch a show they hate just because everyone else loves it? It all comes down to whether what TPTB are producing is what you happen to like. If they're satisfying me, then no, I don't care that much about everybody else. Likewise, if they're not satisfying me then I don't care that much that everyone else loves it. I'm not demanding for TPTB of any show to cater to me, but if they aren't satisfying me then that's the bottom line.
Exactly! Each of us has our own bottom line, and our own likes or dislikes.

Raven56
February 4th, 2008, 10:56 AM
I am actually going to DEFEND the writers on this. Don't fall your chair squallie/Brian.

Writing a script leaves no real room for character redevelopment like it would in the case of writing a novel. the development in script writing comes in action and interaction between the characters.

When writing characters it's really easy to say...just sit down and write the character out. But in reality the character takes on it's own personality and things develop in the character based on interaction with other characters and situations.

Where the show lacks is in those deep emotional interactions that SG-1 had in early seasons.

It would be better if the show would examine the actions of their characters instead of just hopping onto the next big fight scene...that's their mistake.

For the part of knowing the character before filming...they did a good job.

Fir the part of continuing that development...they fell flat on.

I don't believe sitting down for a few months to "hammer out" the characters would have helped. The formula starts the same. Basic background story, basic personality to the character.

IMO the mistake lies in not following through after having eps as powerful as MC and just dropping the subject because the shows writers would rather not talk about the very situation they created.
I'll actually agree with both sides on this one - you're very right on the characters growing and changing, but perhaps a basic starting point would have helped.

The really interesting thing is that I saw more action/story interest in SG-1 than I did character development/interaction, and I see more characterization in SG:A than I did in SG-1.

Hmmm, on the other hand, Doppelganger (what we fear), The Seer (future predetermined by character), Miller's Crossing (how far would you go?), Quarantine (facing helplessness) were all good what I refer to as 'what if' stories - they all made me think.

As do you :). I seldom agree with you, but you always make me think about just why, instead of knee-jerking a reaction. Luvly!

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 11:13 AM
On the other side, that would have turned me away from the character - my attitude would have been: for crying out loud, you're not 16 and it's been almost 10 years, get over it already! :)
Err...I think that its hard to get over one's entire planet being destroyed...which is what I meant by 'traumatised'.


Writing a script leaves no real room for character redevelopment like it would in the case of writing a novel. the development in script writing comes in action and interaction between the characters.
Writing a script gives you room for whatever you want, whether its an action scene of a social inter-action, or perhaps a scene with one character on his own crying over the loss of his people, complete with flashbacks. Why did they have flashbacks only in 'Sateda' when realistically they should have been haunting him through out the series?

When writing characters it's really easy to say...just sit down and write the character out. But in reality the character takes on it's own personality and things develop in the character based on interaction with other characters and situations.
And what about Ford? And Weir for that matter? From what I've seen, the writers didn't know where to take thier characters and so instead of sitting down and really thinking hard on it, they stood up and said 'LETS MAKE 'EM BADDIES!'. :mckay:

Where the show lacks is in those deep emotional interactions that SG-1 had in early seasons.

It would be better if the show would examine the actions of their characters instead of just hopping onto the next big fight scene...that's their mistake.

Its unacceptable to me that they don't 'examine the actions of thier characters instead of just hopping to the next fight scene' when, by now in season four, the characters should be well layered in thier depth. By this I mean that they're still introducing characters from the main team's past when this should have really been covered much, much earlier.

I don't believe sitting down for a few months to "hammer out" the characters would have helped. The formula starts the same. Basic background story, basic personality to the character.

IMO the mistake lies in not following through after having eps as powerful as MC and just dropping the subject because the shows writers would rather not talk about the very situation they created.

You may well be right. I think that it would have made for more interesting character-driven stories if they had basic backgrounds and personalities written down months in advance though before they started on the scripts, so they've had lots of time to go over it in thier minds and make it different from things they've already done in the series (and SG-1).

I underlined 'different' because its a key word here, and I really think that in order for me to be happy with Atlantis is for it to be different. Completely different from anything we've ever seen in a scifi show before.

Mitchell82
February 4th, 2008, 11:18 AM
How was that a problem? Carson was one of the best written characters on the show! He had a fun personality, an ace sense of humour, and was damn good at his job. He was loved by the other characters on the show as well as the audience and I for one loved it each time he went on about his turtles back home.:cameron: That's realistic and beautiful writing.
I loved that too however it bothered me that a great character like him was forced into some eps. I am thrilled that he is coming back.



I've seen every episode of season four that has aired, and in each scene Carter appears it just seems like they got together all of the scripts for SGA, crossed out 'Elizabeth' and crudely put 'Sam' in just above it.
I disagree. I think Sam is written as Sam not Weir and I think Sam has done a far better job than Weir.



They've simply taken the basis for certain SG-1 episodes and inserted things from Atlantis so that it fits in. I find it disturbing that episodes like Doppelganger, Travelers, Missing, Millers Crossing, Harmony, The Real World, Phantoms, Irresistable, Irresponsible, and The Ark could have been just so easily written as SG-1 episodes if they replaced a few names and locations. SGA has potential to be one of the best scifi shows on television, and I for one would like to see something in the series that makes it iconic and original - and make it an almost completely seperate entity from SG-1. With a whole different galaxy surrounding Atlantis, why would they wheel in old villains and characters from SG-1 to spice it up when there is simply no need to?
I don't see it. SGA has been original even those eps that you mentioned. I don't see them being reused or unused SG-1 eps.



Michael is no longer written as being a heart-broken and betrayed character, but rather as an apparent evil genius intent on being evil just for the sheer thrill of being evil. Why else would he find an evil underground lab and create an army of giant bugs?
He still feels betrayed Vengance shows that. I like the way they have written his character.








The reason I watch is to maybe witness an episode that will make me suddenly think 'Wow, that was actually pretty damn spectacular' like I did when I first saw some particular SG-1 episodes (There But For The Grace Of God, The Fifth Race, Serpents Song, 1969, Legacy, Point of View, Urgo, Crystal Skull, Nemesis, The Other Side, Upgrades, Window of Opportunity, Absolute Power, Meridian, Abyss, Unnatural Selection, etc...).

And no, that wasn't an invite to start writing SGA like SG-1. SG-1 was ace because it was unique and original. That's what I'm hoping Atlantis can be.

I have seen plenty of eps that have made me feel like that. Outcast, Doppleganger, Tabula Rasa for example.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 11:34 AM
I loved that too however it bothered me that a great character like him was forced into some eps. I am thrilled that he is coming back.

'Forced' how?


I disagree. I think Sam is written as Sam not Weir and I think Sam has done a far better job than Weir.
To emphasise on the fact that its Sam, all they've done is have her sometimes go 'Back when I was on SG-1...'. Apart from that, all I've seen is her as Weir.


I don't see it. SGA has been original even those eps that you mentioned. I don't see them being reused or unused SG-1 eps.

You honestly don't see the similarities at all? :S


He still feels betrayed Vengeance shows that. I like the way they have written his character.


All I got from Vengeance was 'I am Michael. FEAR ME, HUMANS! FEAR ME! FEAR MY BUGS!' :cool:



I have seen plenty of eps that have made me feel like that. Outcast, Doppleganger, Tabula Rasa for example.

Outcast, and other episodes set on Earth, always seem to have a scene where two of the main characters, guided by a Swat Team, run around a warehouse chasing someone. Tabula Rasa reminded me of SG-1's Beneath the Surface (considering that the main plot device was that everyone had lost thier memories for some reason). I liked the central idea of Doppelganger, but what really winds me up about it is that it could have so easily have been written as an SG-1 episode.

Raven56
February 4th, 2008, 11:36 AM
I have seen plenty of eps that have made me feel like that. Outcast, Doppleganger, Tabula Rasa for example.

We Likum Same Eps ;)
With addition of Miller's Crossing, for me....

Jumper_One
February 4th, 2008, 11:40 AM
To emphasise on the fact that its Sam, all they've done is have her sometimes go 'Back when I was on SG-1...'. Apart from that, all I've seen is her as Weir.

hm she did mention SG-1 in DG. what other times are you talking about?


You honestly don't see the similarities at all? :S

nope

Mitchell82
February 4th, 2008, 11:46 AM
'Forced' how?
The Ark for example. He had no reason to really been in the ep.


To emphasise on the fact that its Sam, all they've done is have her sometimes go 'Back when I was on SG-1...'. Apart from that, all I've seen is her as Weir.
I see your point I just disagree. I just see Sam far better at the job.



You honestly don't see the similarities at all? :S
I see that some are similar but every ep has been unique. Just because some have a vague similarity does not a copy or rehash make.




All I got from Vengeance was 'I am Michael. FEAR ME, HUMANS! FEAR ME! FEAR MY BUGS!' :cool:
I saw alot more than that.




Outcast, and other episodes set on Earth, always seem to have a scene where two of the main characters, guided by a Swat Team, run around a warehouse chasing someone. Tabula Rasa reminded me of SG-1's Beneath the Surface (considering that the main plot device was that everyone had lost thier memories for some reason). I liked the central idea of Doppelganger, but what really winds me up about it is that it could have so easily have been written as an SG-1 episode.
I disagree.

Jackie
February 4th, 2008, 11:47 AM
I'll actually agree with both sides on this one - you're very right on the characters growing and changing, but perhaps a basic starting point would have helped.

The really interesting thing is that I saw more action/story interest in SG-1 than I did character development/interaction, and I see more characterization in SG:A than I did in SG-1.

Hmmm, on the other hand, Doppelganger (what we fear), The Seer (future predetermined by character), Miller's Crossing (how far would you go?), Quarantine (facing helplessness) were all good what I refer to as 'what if' stories - they all made me think.

As do you :). I seldom agree with you, but you always make me think about just why, instead of knee-jerking a reaction. Luvly!

Funny...to me SG-1 was more emotional and less shoot em up and blow em up. maybe it's due to the special effects. I see the ships and beam in and out technology as a distraction from the story and a convenient plot ploy instead of part of the story.

Never said you had to agree with anyone! Thinking is a good thing. ;):)


Err...I think that its hard to get over one's entire planet being destroyed...which is what I meant by 'traumatised'.

Writing a script gives you room for whatever you want, whether its an action scene of a social inter-action, or perhaps a scene with one character on his own crying over the loss of his people, complete with flashbacks. Why did they have flashbacks only in 'Sateda' when realistically they should have been haunting him through out the series?

And what about Ford? And Weir for that matter? From what I've seen, the writers didn't know where to take thier characters and so instead of sitting down and really thinking hard on it, they stood up and said 'LETS MAKE 'EM BADDIES!'. :mckay:

Its unacceptable to me that they don't 'examine the actions of thier characters instead of just hopping to the next fight scene' when, by now in season four, the characters should be well layered in thier depth. By this I mean that they're still introducing characters from the main team's past when this should have really been covered much, much earlier.


You may well be right. I think that it would have made for more interesting character-driven stories if they had basic backgrounds and personalities written down months in advance though before they started on the scripts, so they've had lots of time to go over it in thier minds and make it [B]different from things they've already done in the series (and SG-1).

I underlined 'different' because its a key word here, and I really think that in order for me to be happy with Atlantis is for it to be different. Completely different from anything we've ever seen in a scifi show before.

My point with the script writing was unlike writing a novel...you are actually writing instructions...like a recipe. And with script writing--unless there is a reason to have the actor cry you leave the action blank for the director. With script writing the writer has to leave room for the director's impute and it is frowned upon to have the writer do the director's job.

I just wrote a script for a musical. (Need to find a musician now.) I need to NOT put in emotional cues unless there is a reason for it. The director does all that. I also place where the music goes and I can suggest what the song should be like but I can't write music. Script writing is far EASIER...IMO than writing a novel and I have done both. But with a novel you can take your time as a writer and really explore your characters with no restrictions.

When writing a TV show...the actual exploring of the character comes during production of a show.

Take Lt. Colonel Mitchell. We were given a back story that portrayed him as a hero but IMO that was a bit redundant. I would have had Mitchell brought in as Sam's temp replacement...for a medical leave, say she broke her leg or something...then the big hero who deserved his promotion. Then when sam came back they could have dealt with the...who is in charge issue.

Sam could have remained in command and then we could have had tension with Mitchell pondering if Sam was fit for command or vise versa. Just a thought.

What I would like to see the writer's do for season 5 is:

Come up with a solid over all story arc. You can have mini arcs under the over all arc.

Have one solid enemy and not a bunch of little ones.

Have a define a mission purpose for SGA to even be exist. Another words...make it real. Why would Earth still send people to another universe, to a ancient city and risk exposing Earth to an enemy with space travel?

define who the enemy is? What is their goal?

Bring about deeper character development and rely less on plot devices such as Asgard technology and Earth built ships to resolve the situation.

Make SGA the under dog once more. We seem to have too much technology, we seem to be smarter than Ancients and Rodney can solve anything.

Define if the expedition is military or civilian.

Actually employ the gate as you entrance and exist point to scenes.

Bring up questionable actions and repercussions in the character development. Example: MC and Sheppard's assisted suicide.

Resolve over due issues such as the fate of Ford and Wier.

Explore the city

Avoid wallpapering characters in favor of vamping McKay even more.

Briangate78
February 4th, 2008, 11:49 AM
Michael is a perfect example of some good writing, imo. They had a character who they made into a human, lied to him, and then betrayed him again after he helped to save Sheppard's team. No one wanted to listen to Ronon, which that continues in "Vengence" when he snaps back at Sheppard. I loved that part, because he is right, and Sheppard knows it.

I also think it's a moral issue, is he a Wraith or is he Human? He is an outcast, and I think Michael has been one of the most dynamic enemies/characters we've seen. The scene in vengence where Michael tells Sheppard to shoot him because he doesn't care if he lives or not truly makes you wonder how hurt this character is. Outcasted from the Wraith and Atlantis, all because of what Beckett/Atlantis did to him. Wow I cannot WAIT, till the Kindred. Screw the replicators, the show is going to really dive in deep for the last 3 eps of the season.

Raven56
February 4th, 2008, 11:56 AM
What I would like to see the writer's do for season 5 is:

Come up with a solid over all story arc. You can have mini arcs under the over all arc.

Have one solid enemy and not a bunch of little ones.

Have a define a mission purpose for SGA to even be exist. Another words...make it real. Why would Earth still send people to another universe, to a ancient city and risk exposing Earth to an enemy with space travel?

define who the enemy is? What is their goal?

Bring about deeper character development and rely less on plot devices such as Asgard technology and Earth built ships to resolve the situation.

Make SGA the under dog once more. We seem to have too much technology, we seem to be smarter than Ancients and Rodney can solve anything.

Define if the expedition is military or civilian.

Actually employ the gate as you entrance and exist point to scenes.

Bring up questionable actions and repercussions in the character development. Example: MC and Sheppard's assisted suicide.

Resolve over due issues such as the fate of Ford and Wier.

Explore the city

Avoid wallpapering characters in favor of vamping McKay even more.
:D That's interesting - most of what you've brought up would tend to make it way too predictable for me - I like never knowing whether they're walking through the 'gate, having a show on Atlantis, or frantically dashing back to Earth 'cause the defecation has hit the revolving blades back here. :)

ToasterOnFire
February 4th, 2008, 11:56 AM
^ Jackie, those are all very good points and I'd like to see most to all of them too. :)

Jackie
February 4th, 2008, 11:58 AM
Michael is a perfect example of some good writing, imo. They had a character who they made into a human, lied to him, and then betrayed him again after he helped to save Sheppard's team. No one wanted to listen to Ronon, which that continues in "Vengence" when he snaps back at Sheppard. I loved that part, because he is right, and Sheppard knows it.

I also think it's a moral issue, is he a Wraith or is he Human? He is an outcast, and I think Michael has been one of the most dynamic enemies/characters we've seen. The scene in vengence where Michael tells Sheppard to shoot him because he doesn't care if he lives or not truly makes you wonder how hurt this character is. Outcasted from the Wraith and Atlantis, all because of what Beckett/Atlantis did to him. Wow I cannot WAIT, till the Kindred. Screw the replicators, the show is going to really dive in deep for the last 3 eps of the season.

Micheal is a phenomenal story arc and I really wish they kept Beckett as part of it. (I know you will tell me to wait and see.:))

Micheal is the perfect example of what the writers can do. No heavy dependency on technology, you don't have Rodney smarter than the Wraith. The Wraith...one of the few enemies I like...are in a situation where they are facing starvation, they hunt for food(us) and we fight back. Imagine cows taking up arms and shooting back at us!

They are a result of evolution and not some freak science experiment...so who are we to say...kill them all.

We actually committed a crime against them by trying to make them human like. Just a wonderful arc that should have continued in greater detail and depth.

(Note: i thought Micheal's mutated wraith were a little cheesy though.)

Briangate78
February 4th, 2008, 12:09 PM
Micheal is a phenomenal story arc and I really wish they kept Beckett as part of it. (I know you will tell me to wait and see.:))

Micheal is the perfect example of what the writers can do. No heavy dependency on technology, you don't have Rodney smarter than the Wraith. The Wraith...one of the few enemies I like...are in a situation where they are facing starvation, they hunt for food(us) and we fight back. Imagine cows taking up arms and shooting back at us!

They are a result of evolution and not some freak science experiment...so who are we to say...kill them all.

We actually committed a crime against them by trying to make them human like. Just a wonderful arc that should have continued in greater detail and depth.

(Note: i thought Micheal's mutated wraith were a little cheesy though.)

Yeah I enjoyed the Michael story arcs, saved Season 2 for me, imo. The monsters he had were a little cheesy, but I hope if they do return they are touched up a little better or made differently.

Beckett is one of the key characters for this story arc. This is why even Beckett has become a great character, he is not just a medical doctor, and it is the reason why if he does return next season ,there will be room for him along with Keller.

ciannwn
February 4th, 2008, 12:09 PM
I also think it's a moral issue, is he a Wraith or is he Human? He is an outcast, and I think Michael has been one of the most dynamic enemies/characters we've seen. The scene in vengence where Michael tells Sheppard to shoot him because he doesn't care if he lives or not truly makes you wonder how hurt this character is. Outcasted from the Wraith and Atlantis, all because of what Beckett/Atlantis did to him.

There's also another aspect to Michael. In 'Misbegotten' he tells Teyla -

MICHAEL: And if I remember nothing of what or who I am -- if this consciousness is erased -- what is the difference between that and death?

Previously in 'No Man's Land' he tells the Queen -

MICHAEL: ... But I don't understand why I wasn't told. I told you of their plan because I believed it was a viable way ...

Maybe I'm wrong but I get the impression that he was perfectly happy for other Wraith to be turned into amnesiac humans even though he objected when it happened to him.

Raven56
February 4th, 2008, 12:16 PM
There's also another aspect to Michael. In 'Misbegotten' he tells Teyla -

MICHAEL: And if I remember nothing of what or who I am -- if this consciousness is erased -- what is the difference between that and death?

Previously in 'No Man's Land' he tells the Queen -

MICHAEL: ... But I don't understand why I wasn't told. I told you of their plan because I believed it was a viable way ...

Maybe I'm wrong but I get the impression that he was perfectly happy for other Wraith to be turned into amnesiac humans even though he objected when it happened to him.
Yep. :) And that shows just how like humans the Wraith really are, doesn't it? Don't do as I do, do as I say...... :snicker:

Jackie
February 4th, 2008, 12:27 PM
Yeah I enjoyed the Michael story arcs, saved Season 2 for me, imo. The monsters he had were a little cheesy, but I hope if they do return they are touched up a little better or made differently.

Beckett is one of the key characters for this story arc. This is why even Beckett has become a great character, he is not just a medical doctor, and it is the reason why if he does return next season ,there will be room for him along with Keller.

I knew you were gonna say that! Lol. Oh, you predictable puppy you.;)


There's also another aspect to Michael. In 'Misbegotten' he tells Teyla -

MICHAEL: And if I remember nothing of what or who I am -- if this consciousness is erased -- what is the difference between that and death?

Previously in 'No Man's Land' he tells the Queen -

MICHAEL: ... But I don't understand why I wasn't told. I told you of their plan because I believed it was a viable way ...

Maybe I'm wrong but I get the impression that he was perfectly happy for other Wraith to be turned into amnesiac humans even though he objected when it happened to him.

I think Micheal is supposed the border on insanity. Talk about an identity disorder!

Todd is also an interesting story arc. He's stable enough to know what is going on and yet still the enemy.

Briangate78
February 4th, 2008, 12:50 PM
I knew you were gonna say that! Lol. Oh, you predictable puppy you.;)



I think Micheal is supposed the border on insanity. Talk about an identity disorder!

Todd is also an interesting story arc. He's stable enough to know what is going on and yet still the enemy.

The Wraith have gotten some nice development. We even got some interesting development on the replicators, but I still think the Wraith are more dynamic that ever. I don't think Atlantis realizes how human these Wraith are, and yet they feed on the thing they are mostly like. That is deep for ya. :p

Oh and yes Beckett rocks! :p

Jackie
February 4th, 2008, 01:02 PM
The Wraith have gotten some nice development. We even got some interesting development on the replicators, but I still think the Wraith are more dynamic that ever. I don't think Atlantis realizes how human these Wraith are, and yet they feed on the thing they are mostly like. That is deep for ya. :p

Oh and yes Beckett rocks! :p

what makes the wraith so "human" is how we can reflect Earth's own problems in them. Starvation provokes images of rail thin children wondering around the dessert.

It's in our nature to solve problems and make thing better. the problem with solving the Wraith's food problem is it would require our own sacrifice.

Then we go from a human need to help others to defending ourselves from a predator that we are prey too.

Our options are feed the wraith or kill the wraith. beckett attempted to "solve" the problem and created Frankenstein in the process.

So, my solution is to reverse Beckett's virus to strip away any human from them. Then call in Bug Busters and well there you go.

ciannwn
February 4th, 2008, 01:27 PM
Our options are feed the wraith or kill the wraith. beckett attempted to "solve" the problem and created Frankenstein in the process.

So, my solution is to reverse Beckett's virus to strip away any human from them. Then call in Bug Busters and well there you go.

TPTB could decide that the solution lies in a middle way - a genetic alteration which enables Wraith to live on ordinary food as adults while remaining Wraith in all other respects. As they're the ones who invented Wraith biology it would work because they say it does and they could make it sound scientific with a bit of medical technobabble. Some Wraith could choose to take this option because they see benefit to themselves (an over specialised diet makes them vulnerable and forces them to spend much of their lives hibernating.) Others could refuse so there would still be some 'bad guys' left for the expedition to blow up.

Briangate78
February 4th, 2008, 01:48 PM
what makes the wraith so "human" is how we can reflect Earth's own problems in them. Starvation provokes images of rail thin children wondering around the dessert.

It's in our nature to solve problems and make thing better. the problem with solving the Wraith's food problem is it would require our own sacrifice.

Then we go from a human need to help others to defending ourselves from a predator that we are prey too.

Our options are feed the wraith or kill the wraith. beckett attempted to "solve" the problem and created Frankenstein in the process.

So, my solution is to reverse Beckett's virus to strip away any human from them. Then call in Bug Busters and well there you go.

or make them real Wraith and call in the Ghost Plumbers! :p

ToasterOnFire
February 4th, 2008, 01:50 PM
The SGA team got the wraith out of their hibernation early - they could always figure out a way to force them back into hibernation again.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 4th, 2008, 02:29 PM
I disagree.

You disagree with the fact that Doppelganger could have been written as an SG-1 episode? How? You simply replace Shepherd with Colonel O'Neill, the others with SG-1 and set it in the SGC. :S There.

I'll reply to the other posts in a bit, guys, just busy doing something.

Jackie
February 4th, 2008, 02:31 PM
TPTB could decide that the solution lies in a middle way - a genetic alteration which enables Wraith to live on ordinary food as adults while remaining Wraith in all other respects. As they're the ones who invented Wraith biology it would work because they say it does and they could make it sound scientific with a bit of medical technobabble. Some Wraith could choose to take this option because they see benefit to themselves (an over specialised diet makes them vulnerable and forces them to spend much of their lives hibernating.) Others could refuse so there would still be some 'bad guys' left for the expedition to blow up.

Interesting concept. I toyed with the idea of having them find an enzyme that would be equivalent to feeding but produced in a lab. Some would take it and others refuse because they don't see humans as equals but as mere food. Then you get a situation that could place Wraith against wraith and some Wraith may even try to make themselves out to be taking the drug just to gain the people's trust.

That could open a whole Pandora's box of issues.




or make them real Wraith and call in the Ghost Plumbers! :p

Ghost Plumbers International...they even do ancient toilets.


The SGA team got the wraith out of their hibernation early - they could always figure out a way to force them back into hibernation again.

Toyed with that idea as well. Apparently they can't hibernate till after they feed. The Wraith kind of have an odd existence, they spend most of their time sleeping and then only wake to feed. Don't see a lot of room for other advances that don't benefit their feeding...like art and music.

Of course, Todd's attempt at Wraith humor was funny. Loved the handshake.

I'm working on a fan fic that is essentially a murder mystery and political satire all in one. the wraith are invited to the very first intergalactic senate meeting and they are the only race with a real problem...starvation. The administrator of the senate offers them a sarcophagus to help them go longer between feedings. the Wraith want to use it to continuously revive their food source...like what Ba'al did to Jack. Suck the humans dry and then revive them over and over again.

Now to the Wraith that is not cruel but a means to stretch out limited food supplies. To Earth...it's horrific. Who is right?

GoSpikey
February 4th, 2008, 03:28 PM
Micheal is a phenomenal story arc and I really wish they kept Beckett as part of it. (I know you will tell me to wait and see.:))

Micheal is the perfect example of what the writers can do. No heavy dependency on technology, you don't have Rodney smarter than the Wraith. The Wraith...one of the few enemies I like...are in a situation where they are facing starvation, they hunt for food(us) and we fight back. Imagine cows taking up arms and shooting back at us!

They are a result of evolution and not some freak science experiment...so who are we to say...kill them all.

We actually committed a crime against them by trying to make them human like. Just a wonderful arc that should have continued in greater detail and depth.

(Note: i thought Micheal's mutated wraith were a little cheesy though.)

*cough* 2,000+ posts on GW, 2 years of being active, so it's time you learn to spell it 'Michael'. *cough*

:P

Jumper_One
February 4th, 2008, 03:38 PM
*cough* 2,000+ posts on GW, 2 years of being active, so it's time you learn to spell it 'Michael'. *cough*

:P

:lol:

Jackie
February 4th, 2008, 03:40 PM
*cough* 2,000+ posts on GW, 2 years of being active, so it's time you learn to spell it 'Michael'. *cough*

:P

thank you for pointing out the severe dyslexia. you should see my post without spell check:

here's an exapmle

Reiko
February 4th, 2008, 05:29 PM
Admittedly, after having just now watched that particular scene from the episode, that scene wasn't too bad at all. It had nice music, almost tear-worthy dialogue, etc. My main problem is that they didn't pick up on it later, as in the later episodes we don't see Ronan mourning over Elizabeth (as he neglects to do so for his own people).


Well ... Continuity is a b**** :D

But we could use a wee bitty more follow-up.



When Carson returns. I do hope Weir is mentioned. Carson should say, where is Elizabeth or what happened to her. There better be a moment when either John or Rodney says something like "We lost her" . If not I would be a little annoyed.

Heck, I hope so! I'm gonna have to eat dinner after that episode, because if he just trots in and say "Hello there Colonel Carter!" I'm going to vomit all over the carpet.


I totally agree and would love to see more of this friendship. Oh wait, something is missing... ;)

And I have to agree with this too. Another of my favorite moments in season 4 is when Radek and Rodney discuss Elizabeth and Carson. It doesn't take much to scatter moments like this throughout the episodes and it makes the story that much richer when we actually see how much a character has impacted the others. I think they've made some improvements in this area, but there's still room for more.

To me one of the richest aspects of SGA is the friendships between all the characters, namely the main six plus Zelenka. One thing that gets on my nerves is this new 'family' in season four that gets shoved down my throat. I want my old family back! One True Family = One True Team = One True Show.


Oh, there have been eps that I liked and character developments that I liked (or thought that TPTB didn't completely screw up :P). Heck, in most eps I can find something that I enjoyed. Overall though, I've been rather meh toward the season.


Same here, in the points that I find one good thing in every episode (heck even Travellers had one), though I too have been in 'meh' mode this season.



Beckett is one of the key characters for this story arc. This is why even Beckett has become a great character, he is not just a medical doctor, and it is the reason why if he does return next season ,there will be room for him along with Keller.

Or without Keller :P The infirmary is always open to my favourite doctor ;)


Regarding Michael ... The bugs are cheesy, to start off. But I do think Michael has much motivation behind his doings rather than being 'Dr. Evil'. The sad thing is the writers could have done better at writing at. Or planning it.

Or even not making the bugs as cheezy.

ToasterOnFire
February 4th, 2008, 06:08 PM
Interesting concept. I toyed with the idea of having them find an enzyme that would be equivalent to feeding but produced in a lab.
"Human in a Can"? :D


Toyed with that idea as well. Apparently they can't hibernate till after they feed. The Wraith kind of have an odd existence, they spend most of their time sleeping and then only wake to feed.
Huh, I must have missed when that was mentioned in canon. I wonder how much they have to feed before they can hibernate again? And what would trigger the urge to hibernate - an internal biological change or some kind of pheromone from others? Maybe they could hit the wraith with the enzyme idea you mentioned above to fake satiation and then some sort of artificial hormone that would make them sleep.

Not that I want to get rid of the wraith - I'd rather learn more about them and have them become much more menacing than they are now.

kymeric
February 4th, 2008, 07:00 PM
...That's it? :S So....your entire homeworld is destroyed along with most of your pals and all of your family, and you get drunk, tear up and kill someone...:S And its never mentioned again >.>

Sounds about right. His home is gone, do you think you can make a new home with refugees from your home after 7 yrs of killing and living like an animal? A killer? Sleeping in the dirt about to die at any moment. Watching anyone who helps you being sucked dry like a grape. Always remebering the look in ure womans face as shes incinerated......

Im suprised Ronin hasnt had more problems with attachments and fitting in. Id bet he really likes killing wraith

jenks
February 4th, 2008, 07:36 PM
Sounds about right. His home is gone, do you think you can make a new home with refugees from your home after 7 yrs of killing and living like an animal? A killer? Sleeping in the dirt about to die at any moment. Watching anyone who helps you being sucked dry like a grape. Always remebering the look in ure womans face as shes incinerated......

Im suprised Ronin hasnt had more problems with attachments and fitting in. Id bet he really likes killing wraith

RONON*

miss_kaylee
February 4th, 2008, 07:51 PM
Sounds about right. His home is gone, do you think you can make a new home with refugees from your home after 7 yrs of killing and living like an animal? A killer? Sleeping in the dirt about to die at any moment. Watching anyone who helps you being sucked dry like a grape. Always remebering the look in ure womans face as shes incinerated......

Im suprised Ronin hasnt had more problems with attachments and fitting in. Id bet he really likes killing wraith
You know by being a Runner all those years has messed him up some how. Maybe he does show it to others at all but you know behind close doors, it gets him.

SG13-NightOps
February 4th, 2008, 08:14 PM
Misc character based opinions that are snipped lest I quote a dozen posts.

From what I am seeing, I feel you are taking a very narrow view on people. You yourself have said that humans are complex, but are in the same breath complaining that these people do not fit into the generic stereotype when dealing with trauma and family.

I think that it was well covered by Lythisrose when she did make mention that Ronons trauma is several years old. If I saw Ronon bawling like a baby over a whole bunch of people who died seven years ago - and he knows it - then I'd have to seriously question whether we are watching a Science Fiction show, or some cheesy drama like DooL.

Further to that, a lot they try and write in ends up on the cutting room floor because of time constraints. The reason for that is because this IS a Sci Fi show, and not a cheesy drama. There is shows for people who want only to see characters deal with horrid tragedies, and shows for people who want to see the cool sci fi bits while the overwhelming drama happens "in between" episodes. If it makes you feel better you can pretend Ronon cried himself to sleep at night when he was a runner - but I would rather not see it because it would make me lose all respect for the strong, unshakable warrior.

Now there are people out there that do see people die everyday.. THEIR people because we are all Human. They arent given to outpourings of emotion because they have a job to do. We call them Doctors and Nurses. Such a type of person who can deal with that type of loss without becoming a blubbering idiot do exist. Ronon is one of them. That does not mean the character is unrealistic, wooden or wrong. Just different to what you or I would do.

Same with Shep. Why did he have to talk about his father and brother earlier? Have I mention mine? Obviously I have one, but in all the time I have been here, have I made any mention of him?

Onto Outcast, if you remember what shep said, HE believed his father didnt want him around or to have anything to do with him, and so that is why he sent no video. In his mind, his father wouldnt have cared anyway. Again, people can behave exactly how shep did, despite how you or I would have done things.

Key: Sci Fi - Not Drama.
Non Linear Characters likely to react differently to you.
All the little stuff is In Between episodes.

At least, thats how it may be easier to view.

ciannwn
February 5th, 2008, 03:36 AM
There is shows for people who want only to see characters deal with horrid tragedies, and shows for people who want to see the cool sci fi bits while the overwhelming drama happens "in between" episodes.

Then there's the middle way - hints that there's some overwhelming drama in between episodes. SGA has done this in the past.

In 'The Gift' -

HEIGHTMEYER: ... I deal with the mind. I try and help people deal with emotional problems like anxiety, depression, post-traumatic distress. (Teyla looks suspiciously at her.) Well, needless to say I've been pretty busy since we got here.

Later on in the episode Teyla goes to see Heightmeyer and we're shown Rodney just about to leave after a counselling session. Even though he tells Teyla that he and Heightmeyer are dating the fact that the psychologist is looking at a notebook indicates otherwise.

Then there's 'Sunday'. When Sheppard asks Dex if he's dating anyone Dex says he's not ready yet and this turns out to relate to his lost love on Sateda. We didn't have to see Dex breaking down and crying over her every episode to realise that he hadn't been able to let go of the past and move on at this point.

Raven56
February 5th, 2008, 05:38 AM
I think that it was well covered by Lythisrose when she did make mention that Ronons trauma is several years old. If I saw Ronon bawling like a baby over a whole bunch of people who died seven years ago - and he knows it - then I'd have to seriously question whether we are watching a Science Fiction show, or some cheesy drama like DooL.
Agreed entirely.


Further to that, a lot they try and write in ends up on the cutting room floor because of time constraints.
Exactly. It's a great pity that every show can't have every scene that was filmed, but that's the way it is. Every time I want to complain, I stop and think about what those poor b--rs ahem people go through to get this show on screen, and I back off and give them a break.


That does not mean the character is unrealistic, wooden or wrong. Just different to what you or I would do.
That's a sticking point for many people, IMO. They want the characters to react the way they would. And since I have no idea what it would be like to have to survive losing my entire planet, I can't really say.


Same with Shep. Why did he have to talk about his father and brother earlier? Have I mention mine? Obviously I have one, but in all the time I have been here, have I made any mention of him?

Onto Outcast, if you remember what shep said, HE believed his father didnt want him around or to have anything to do with him, and so that is why he sent no video. In his mind, his father wouldnt have cared anyway. Again, people can behave exactly how shep did, despite how you or I would have done things.
And aside from all that, if we saw everything that went on in every second, we'd still be only halfway through day 4 of the original mission!
IMO, the show 24 did a vast disservice to all other shows, with the 'show everything 'cause the entire season is one day' thing.


Then there's the middle way - hints that there's some overwhelming drama in between episodes. SGA has done this in the past.
Problem is, it seems sometimes that people want to see everything nowadays - imagination and filling in the blanks yourself is too much work? :o I dunno. I love thinking up things. Jumpstarts the fanfic.....;)


In 'The Gift' -

HEIGHTMEYER: ... I deal with the mind. I try and help people deal with emotional problems like anxiety, depression, post-traumatic distress. (Teyla looks suspiciously at her.) Well, needless to say I've been pretty busy since we got here.

Later on in the episode Teyla goes to see Heightmeyer and we're shown Rodney just about to leave after a counselling session. Even though he tells Teyla that he and Heightmeyer are dating the fact that the psychologist is looking at a notebook indicates otherwise.

Then there's 'Sunday'. When Sheppard asks Dex if he's dating anyone Dex says he's not ready yet and this turns out to relate to his lost love on Sateda. We didn't have to see Dex breaking down and crying over her every episode to realise that he hadn't been able to let go of the past and move on at this point.
Excellent examples.

SG13-NightOps
February 5th, 2008, 05:47 AM
Then there's the middle way - hints that there's some overwhelming drama in between episodes. SGA has done this in the past.

In 'The Gift' -

HEIGHTMEYER: ... I deal with the mind. I try and help people deal with emotional problems like anxiety, depression, post-traumatic distress. (Teyla looks suspiciously at her.) Well, needless to say I've been pretty busy since we got here.

Later on in the episode Teyla goes to see Heightmeyer and we're shown Rodney just about to leave after a counselling session. Even though he tells Teyla that he and Heightmeyer are dating the fact that the psychologist is looking at a notebook indicates otherwise.

Then there's 'Sunday'. When Sheppard asks Dex if he's dating anyone Dex says he's not ready yet and this turns out to relate to his lost love on Sateda. We didn't have to see Dex breaking down and crying over her every episode to realise that he hadn't been able to let go of the past and move on at this point.

Precisely. Some mentions make it in the cut, others hit the floor. But as primarily Science Fiction, unless that relationship is part of the storyline (Jeannie for example) then the cursory mention in the episode may or may not make it to the final cut with the priority being placed on the expedition and main story as a whole.

If they spent every episode doing as much personal development on every character that people want personal development on - they would never leave the base onscreen, never show new tech. It would turn into Atlantis Characters and the Sci Fi elements would be the in betweens.

It can't be done. 42 minutes per episode and they still need to fit a story line in it.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 5th, 2008, 08:04 AM
Funny...to me SG-1 was more emotional and less shoot em up and blow em up. maybe it's due to the special effects. I see the ships and beam in and out technology as a distraction from the story and a convenient plot ploy instead of part of the story.

For some reason, the scene from SG-1's 'Grace' pops to mind when Sam is tearing up on the deck and has a brief flash of herself kissing Jack. :cameron: That was ace writing.


My point with the script writing was unlike writing a novel...you are actually writing instructions...like a recipe. And with script writing--unless there is a reason to have the actor cry you leave the action blank for the director. With script writing the writer has to leave room for the director's impute and it is frowned upon to have the writer do the director's job.

So? They still have the power to write an emotional scene regarding Ronon and how depressed he should be over the loss of his homeworld.


I just wrote a script for a musical. (Need to find a musician now.) I need to NOT put in emotional cues unless there is a reason for it. The director does all that. I also place where the music goes and I can suggest what the song should be like but I can't write music. Script writing is far EASIER...IMO than writing a novel and I have done both. But with a novel you can take your time as a writer and really explore your characters with no restrictions.
Over a series of hour long episodes, you can 'explore' and develop your characters by way of a script (which is what they should have done for season one). Since SGA tends to ignore the fact that humans are capable of remembering what they did the week before and bring up even more story arcs for our heroes to forget come the next episode, it doesn't really matter.

When writing a TV show...the actual exploring of the character comes during production of a show.

Even so, exploring a character for just one episode and then forgetting it in the next episode because of the next adventure is pointless writing.


Take Lt. Colonel Mitchell. We were given a back story that portrayed him as a hero but IMO that was a bit redundant. I would have had Mitchell brought in as Sam's temp replacement...for a medical leave, say she broke her leg or something...then the big hero who deserved his promotion. Then when sam came back they could have dealt with the...who is in charge issue.

Sam could have remained in command and then we could have had tension with Mitchell pondering if Sam was fit for command or vise versa. Just a thought.
I wasn't that big a fan of SG-1 season nine and ten, simply because I feel that the series dragged itself on for too long. I would have been happy with eight seasons, and maybe some movie afterwards. I also think that the Ori storyline seemed to be too much of a rip-off of the Goa'uld story = Powerful beings pretending to be gods, get power from thier followers, yadda yadda yadda.


What I would like to see the writer's do for season 5 is:

Come up with a solid over all story arc. You can have mini arcs under the over all arc.

I'm not against this, just so long as the main story arc isn't a copy of previous ones. As I've said, originality in story telling in a series is its strongest point, at least IMO.


Have one solid enemy and not a bunch of little ones.
Hmmm, I think that if they actually made the current baddies interesting then there wouldn't be a problem.

Have a definite mission purpose for SGA to even be exist. Another words...make it real. Why would Earth still send people to another universe, to a ancient city and risk exposing Earth to an enemy with space travel?
I'm never against adding realism to a surreal series. As I mentioned in a previous post, I'm far more interested to see the reactions of 'real' people facing the threats in SGA, other than the cartoony ones (except Rodney) who don't seem to be fazed by the fact that they share a galaxy with space vampires and regenerative robots intent on killing them as well as each other.

define who the enemy is? What is their goal?

Actually, I'd rather they introduce a more complex villain. Someone unpredictable. Thats not an invite for them to quickly come up with an idea for a baddy, then make them appear in the odd episode complete with different evil schemes. What I mean is introduce someone, and plan out what your character has in mind for the universe but don't reveal it, only drop vague hints (and also make it a confusing path for our heroes to follow, so that even Rodney can't quite figure out whats going on). Don't make it like the Ori and explain thier evil plans right at the start;

'We will create space ships and have our warriors go out amongst the stars...' or whatever the Doci said. I much prefer a mysterious villain, and one who isn't out to 'destroy the universe' or whatever...Quite like how Michael started out, before they changed him for the end of season three;

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n185/mappalazarou/medium_dr_evil_1.jpg



Bring about deeper character development and rely less on plot devices such as Asgard technology and Earth built ships to resolve the situation.

I agree with this, completely. Instead of having stand-alone character driven stories every dozen episodes, lets have character driver story arcs which are present through out the run of the season (so the characters actually 'develop').


Make SGA the under dog once more. We seem to have too much technology, we seem to be smarter than Ancients and Rodney can solve anything.
I think that its only plausable for us to be quite technologically advanced considering that the Asgard gave us everything before they snuffed it. I think that maybe we should start using that new technology far more often, instead of having bad, evil music play everytime the wraith show up which really annoys me since we now have the technology to kick thier asses. What's unacceptable is that we should be out to wraith homeworlds flattening them with those uber-asgard beams.

In 'Spoils of War', when they crashed that Hive ship into the huge cloning facility - it was stupid because they could have made a quick call and had the Deadalus or the Apollo there in no time, and would have had thier own Hive ship to keep!!

Stupidness...:mckay:



Define if the expedition is military or civilian.

It seems that it started off civilian with Wier in charge, and yet they ignored that by putting Colonel Carter in charge.


Actually employ the gate as you entrance and exist point to scenes.


What? You mean use the gate more?

I suppose that the show is about the stargate afterall.

Bring up questionable actions and repercussions in the character development. Example: MC and Sheppard's assisted suicide.


And by doing so, adding much more interest to bland and boring wooden characters. The only sense of sympathy we got from Outcast was Joe Flanigan blinking a tiny bit more with some soft music playing in the background. Not Joe's fault in any sense, he's a nice actor who should have been given more material to interpret and work with.

Resolve over due issues such as the fate of Ford and Wier.


I think Ford is pretty much dead, or crash landed on Earth since he appeared briefly in the utterly appalling AvP:R....:mckay: Avoid that movie. Avoid it like the plague.

Explore the city

They do that every few episodes, when they discover ancient super computer number 42 and it does something stupid, like introduce explosive tumours and force people into ascension...(Although admittedly, I liked Tao of Rodney).


Avoid wallpapering characters in favor of vamping McKay even more.

...What?

Jackie
February 5th, 2008, 08:40 AM
My new message to the writer:

write what ever the heck you want...they just put a spineless weasel in charge of the expedition. Can't get much lower than that...and they made us wait and extra day to find out too.

there is no way the writers can save Atlantis now...RIP Atlantis.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 5th, 2008, 08:46 AM
My new message to the writer:

write what ever the heck you want...they just put a spineless weasel in charge of the expedition. Can't get much lower than that...and they made us wait and extra day to find out too.

there is no way the writers can save Atlantis now...RIP Atlantis.

I disagree completely. Woosley is strict, sure, but he's a civilian and is played by a damn good actor. I think that as long as they keep writing him like they have done and having him boss around the team as they should be bossed around maybe we'll avoid getting into unnecessary situations and wheeling out boring and repetitive plot devices.

ciannwn
February 5th, 2008, 09:41 AM
Precisely. Some mentions make it in the cut, others hit the floor.

Cutting everything out for the sake of action adventure just leads to characters who never seem to be affected by anything that's happened before. Just one scene every so often makes all the difference such as in 'This Mortal Coil'.

After the replicator versions of Weir and the team have been killed, Rodney and Zelenka have a conversation in Rodney's lab. Two things are established here. The first is when Zelenka says that Rodney is trying to lose himself in his work to avoid thinking about Weir. Rodney replies with -

McKAY (his voice full of pain): That's one of the perks of the job. Something terrible happens, you don't have enough time to dwell on it ‘cause you're too busy trying to stop the next terrible thing from happening. Seriously, if it wasn't for the Replicators and their plan to wipe out every human in the galaxy, I'd be in pretty bad shape right now.

We now know that Rodney has been effected by everything that's happened in the past. He throws himself into his work to avoid thinking about it so this is what he's doing in all the episodes when he doesn't talk about it. Then we get -

McKAY: Now, this is Carson all over again and I'm just not ready to deal. Not yet.

Yes, he still remembers a friend he lost in Season 3.


But as primarily Science Fiction, unless that relationship is part of the storyline (Jeannie for example) then the cursory mention in the episode may or may not make it to the final cut with the priority being placed on the expedition and main story as a whole.

Science Fiction is a genre not a set formula which every science fiction movie, TV show or book is obliged to follow. Many sci fi novels focus on how people react and behave in the fictional world or situation which the author has chosen for a scenario. Other novels with a more action adventure approach can still find time to explore what effects events are having on the characters. Even a basic theme of Earth military vs aliens can receive different treatments from different authors such as Joe Haldeman's 'The Forever War' and Robert A. Heinlein's 'Starship Troopers' (the movie version was appalling, in my opinion, and bore little resemblance to the book).

The same goes for Science Fiction shows. SGA takes one approach but it's not identical to 'Star Trek', 'Doctor Who', 'Battlestar Galactica' or 'Babylon Five'. In the days of 'Classic Trek' no TV shows had characters remembering what happened the previous week so there was nothing odd about the Enterprise crew suffering from selective amnesia. These days we can look at one show's approach and compare how certain things are done in other sci-fi shows. 'Star Trek', in my opinion, sometimes went a bit overboard with the ordinary, everyday, human interest stuff but (again in my opinion) 'Deep Space Nine' got a better balance because each main character had an ongoing story within a main story arc which allowed for lots of action.

SG13-NightOps
February 5th, 2008, 12:42 PM
Cutting everything out for the sake of action adventure just leads to characters who never seem to be affected by anything that's happened before. Just one scene every so often makes all the difference such as in 'This Mortal Coil'.

After the replicator versions of Weir and the team have been killed, Rodney and Zelenka have a conversation in Rodney's lab. Two things are established here. The first is when Zelenka says that Rodney is trying to lose himself in his work to avoid thinking about Weir. Rodney replies with -

McKAY (his voice full of pain): That's one of the perks of the job. Something terrible happens, you don't have enough time to dwell on it ‘cause you're too busy trying to stop the next terrible thing from happening. Seriously, if it wasn't for the Replicators and their plan to wipe out every human in the galaxy, I'd be in pretty bad shape right now.

We now know that Rodney has been effected by everything that's happened in the past. He throws himself into his work to avoid thinking about it so this is what he's doing in all the episodes when he doesn't talk about it. Then we get -

McKAY: Now, this is Carson all over again and I'm just not ready to deal. Not yet.

Yes, he still remembers a friend he lost in Season 3.

Yes. A line or two that can fit inside 42 minutes. The OP here is making it sound like they want 15 minute outpourings of emotion every other episode from the exact same character because of something that happened several years ago.

While you can clearly see that there are human interest bits to Atlantis, the OP doesn't seem to and whiles you sit here pointing each bit to me, like I am dense and need them. OP Needs them pointed out because they are not seeing them at all. I am simply trying to explain several things, being people react differently. Not everyone will react the way you expect them to and that, Like it or not, If it comes to a choice between a heart wrenching scene where Shep is grieving for Elizabeth or a scene where they work out how to blow up the bad guy - Sorry Liz, but you only get a cursory mention today.


Science Fiction is a genre not a set formula which every science fiction movie, TV show or book is obliged to follow. Many sci fi novels focus on how people react and behave in the fictional world or situation which the author has chosen for a scenario. Other novels with a more action adventure approach can still find time to explore what effects events are having on the characters. Even a basic theme of Earth military vs aliens can receive different treatments from different authors such as Joe Haldeman's 'The Forever War' and Robert A. Heinlein's 'Starship Troopers' (the movie version was appalling, in my opinion, and bore little resemblance to the book).

The same goes for Science Fiction shows. SGA takes one approach but it's not identical to 'Star Trek', 'Doctor Who', 'Battlestar Galactica' or 'Babylon Five'. In the days of 'Classic Trek' no TV shows had characters remembering what happened the previous week so there was nothing odd about the Enterprise crew suffering from selective amnesia. These days we can look at one show's approach and compare how certain things are done in other sci-fi shows. 'Star Trek', in my opinion, sometimes went a bit overboard with the ordinary, everyday, human interest stuff but (again in my opinion) 'Deep Space Nine' got a better balance because each main character had an ongoing story within a main story arc which allowed for lots of action.

So you watch Sci Fi for the drama you could get on Days of our Lives or Desperate Housewives? I do not mind human interaction, continuing stories, or even them remembering their past. But first and foremost, I expect my science fiction to place its priority on being Sci Fi. IF I want to see Drama, then I can watch a show made all about that. I don't specifically because I dont like Drama. It is why SGA is one of a very small handful of shows on TV I can watch. Everyone else seems to think all us chicks want Drama... not for this little black duck. It has the perfect formula right now with the occasional cursory mention. Anything more would not just ruin the show from my sitting, but also change the whole thing. And that is not necessarily a good thing.

Oh, and I was on the B5 side of the "Space station wars". JMS is an utter genius and again the drama is toned down enough and mixed in with good humour. DS9 just seemed all over the place in terms of story line. I mean their fillers... they were so disconnected from the plot that it felt like the bad old days of selective amnesia.

Raven56
February 5th, 2008, 12:52 PM
Yes. A line or two that can fit inside 42 minutes. The OP here is making it sound like they want 15 minute outpourings of emotion every other episode from the exact same character because of something that happened several years ago.
I hope that's not what they want :o. I agree with you - the mentions we've had have been perfect for me. If I want that, I'll go to the fanfic. :cool:


Not everyone will react the way you expect them to and that, Like it or not, If it comes to a choice between a heart wrenching scene where Shep is grieving for Elizabeth or a scene where they work out how to blow up the bad guy - Sorry Liz, but you only get a cursory mention today.
:lol: :D


So you watch Sci Fi for the drama you could get on Days of our Lives or Desperate Housewives? I do not mind human interaction, continuing stories, or even them remembering their past. But first and foremost, I expect my science fiction to place its priority on being Sci Fi. IF I want to see Drama, then I can watch a show made all about that. I don't specifically because I dont like Drama. It is why SGA is one of a very small handful of shows on TV I can watch. Everyone else seems to think all us chicks want Drama... not for this little black duck. It has the perfect formula right now with the occasional cursory mention. Anything more would not just ruin the show from my sitting, but also change the whole thing. And that is not necessarily a good thing.
A bit harshly worded, perhaps ;), but I agree entirely. For me, the mix of action and "drama/character" this season has been excellent.


Oh, and I was on the B5 side of the "Space station wars". JMS is an utter genius and again the drama is toned down enough and mixed in with good humour. DS9 just seemed all over the place in terms of story line. I mean their fillers... they were so disconnected from the plot that it felt like the bad old days of selective amnesia.
I watched and adored B5, but never could get into DS9. "If you value your lives, be somewhere else." One of the best lines in any show EVER! And the delivery was perfect.

Mitchell82
February 5th, 2008, 12:58 PM
I knew you were gonna say that! Lol. Oh, you predictable puppy you.;)



I think Micheal is supposed the border on insanity. Talk about an identity disorder!

Todd is also an interesting story arc. He's stable enough to know what is going on and yet still the enemy.

Michael is SGA's Joker I think. Who knows what he can actually do when pushed.

SG13-NightOps
February 5th, 2008, 01:32 PM
I hope that's not what they want :o. I agree with you - the mentions we've had have been perfect for me. If I want that, I'll go to the fanfic. :cool:
I'd just have to cry. There'd be nothing on TV left to watch!



A bit harshly worded, perhaps ;), but I agree entirely. For me, the mix of action and "drama/character" this season has been excellent.
Most likely. I am not a morning person. LOL. But I honestly do not think that making it a BSG clone is good for the franchise - after all, which one was can canceled again?


I watched and adored B5, but never could get into DS9. "If you value your lives, be somewhere else." One of the best lines in any show EVER! And the delivery was perfect.

Mira was amazing as Delenn - But I loved Ivanova. Best show ever!

ciannwn
February 5th, 2008, 02:48 PM
and whiles you sit here pointing each bit to me, like I am dense and need them. OP Needs them pointed out because they are not seeing them at all.

My reply wasn't specifically aimed at you and I apologise if it came across that way. Your post offered an opportunity for me to say something which everyone following this topic can read, including the person who made the opening post.


So you watch Sci Fi for the drama you could get on Days of our Lives or Desperate Housewives?

I've never seen 'Days Of Our Lives' or 'Desperate Housewives' because that type of show just doesn't appeal to me.


But first and foremost, I expect my science fiction to place its priority on being Sci Fi.

I suppose it really comes down to what different people look for in sci-fi. Some like the emphasis to be on technology and science and want to hear/read about how things work in realistic detail. Their idea of heaven would be Sam or Rodney giving a lecture on quantum physics. Others prefer more of a drama approach while another group of people prefer more action adventure.


Everyone else seems to think all us chicks want Drama... not for this little black duck.

My favourite sci-fi movie of all time is 'Aliens' even though it doesn't have much in the way of human interest drama. I'm not addicted to drama just because I'm a woman. (Although I'm well past the age where I could refer to myself as a chick.)


It has the perfect formula right now with the occasional cursory mention. Anything more would not just ruin the show from my sitting, but also change the whole thing. And that is not necessarily a good thing.

I agree with you in that there's a limit to how much drama can go into SGA without turning it into something else. For myself, I'd prefer it if there were a few more bits and pieces along the way rather than nothing at all for ages and then an entire episode devoted to how everyone's feeling.


DS9 just seemed all over the place in terms of story line. I mean their fillers... they were so disconnected from the plot that it felt like the bad old days of selective amnesia.

I still thought DS9 was a series which had a variety of elements so it could appeal to a wide range of people, though. It was my husband's favourite Star Trek series because he found the characters interesting and his current favourite show is 'Lost' - I mentioned him here because, even though he's a man, he likes a bit of drama more than a lot of women do.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 5th, 2008, 02:50 PM
Michael is a perfect example of some good writing, imo. They had a character who they made into a human, lied to him, and then betrayed him again after he helped to save Sheppard's team. No one wanted to listen to Ronon, which that continues in "Vengence" when he snaps back at Sheppard. I loved that part, because he is right, and Sheppard knows it.

The dialogue in that particular scene seemed a little bland and predictable to me. I was watching certain scenes in 'Vengeance' before and can recall perfectly the scene which reminded me completely of Dr Evil, where Shepherd and Ronon had just been distracted by some 'super-bugs' and chased Michael down around a corner and down a long dark corridor. Michael's 'evil genius' run was spectacularly hysterical for all of the wrong reasons, and the fact that his long wraith coat thingy waves back like a cape as he runs adds to that.


I also think it's a moral issue, is he a Wraith or is he Human? He is an outcast, and I think Michael has been one of the most dynamic enemies/characters we've seen. The scene in vengence where Michael tells Sheppard to shoot him because he doesn't care if he lives or not truly makes you wonder how hurt this character is. Outcasted from the Wraith and Atlantis, all because of what Beckett/Atlantis did to him. Wow I cannot WAIT, till the Kindred. Screw the replicators, the show is going to really dive in deep for the last 3 eps of the season.

The character of Michael started off brilliantly in season two, and this brilliance and conflict of whether to hate or feel sorry for him continued into the early episodes of season three...but were all however destroyed by the time the Dark Lord Michael summoned his superbugs out of his evil underground lair to chase the team for a bit...:mckay:


There's also another aspect to Michael. In 'Misbegotten' he tells Teyla -

MICHAEL: And if I remember nothing of what or who I am -- if this consciousness is erased -- what is the difference between that and death?

Previously in 'No Man's Land' he tells the Queen -

MICHAEL: ... But I don't understand why I wasn't told. I told you of their plan because I believed it was a viable way ...

Maybe I'm wrong but I get the impression that he was perfectly happy for other Wraith to be turned into amnesiac humans even though he objected when it happened to him.

The episodes 'Michael', 'No Man's Land' and 'Misbegotten' were all great episodes. I liked how they showed the ruthlessness of humanity, and how far they must go to keep a situation under control. I had no problems with these episodes.


I think Micheal is supposed the border on insanity. Talk about an identity disorder!

Todd is also an interesting story arc. He's stable enough to know what is going on and yet still the enemy.

Like with Ronon, I think that it would be far more interesting and realistic if the writers picked up on the fact that these two popular characters should be physically and mentally traumatised by thier experiences. I think that it would present a definite conflict for the entire Atlantis expedition considering that most of them had some part to play in Michael's original transformation. His human side must still churn inside, and his emotions should be shown not only through anger, but through sorrow.


The Wraith have gotten some nice development. We even got some interesting development on the replicators, but I still think the Wraith are more dynamic that ever. I don't think Atlantis realizes how human these Wraith are, and yet they feed on the thing they are mostly like. That is deep for ya. :p

Except from Michael in his first three appearences, the wraith are in no way human-like. They run around, going 'rawr!' every so often and then either get shot by one bullet and die or run off (like the wraith in Travellers :S ).

SG13-NightOps
February 5th, 2008, 03:18 PM
My reply wasn't specifically aimed at you and I apologise if it came across that way. Your post offered an opportunity for me to say something which everyone following this topic can read, including the person who made the opening post.
Apologies if I came off abrasively. As I said before, really not a morning person and probably should not have posted until after my second coffee. LOL. But with the Woolsey development, I just couldn't help myself.



I've never seen 'Days Of Our Lives' or 'Desperate Housewives' because that type of show just doesn't appeal to me.
Rather watch paint dry myself.



I suppose it really comes down to what different people look for in sci-fi. Some like the emphasis to be on technology and science and want to hear/read about how things work in realistic detail. Their idea of heaven would be Sam or Rodney giving a lecture on quantum physics. Others prefer more of a drama approach while another group of people prefer more action adventure.
I think that in the grandest scheme, you can say that the two most popular Sci Fi Genre (in terms of longevity) were SG1 and Xfiles. Polar opposites on the Sci Fi scale. They had one thing in common though. No ships.



My favourite sci-fi movie of all time is 'Aliens' even though it doesn't have much in the way of human interest drama. I'm not addicted to drama just because I'm a woman. (Although I'm well past the age where I could refer to myself as a chick.)
As I said, "everyone else" - although I mean that in a general: Them that make the abundance of "chick flicks" and even crappier "chick shows". Also the reason I say "chick".



I agree with you in that there's a limit to how much drama can go into SGA without turning it into something else. For myself, I'd prefer it if there were a few more bits and pieces along the way rather than nothing at all for ages and then an entire episode devoted to how everyone's feeling.
A lot is on the cutting room floor. Many good history bits for Ronon never made the final cut of Reunion - Including the fact that after Runner he returned to Sateda and grabbed some... momentos.



I still thought DS9 was a series which had a variety of elements so it could appeal to a wide range of people, though. It was my husband's favourite Star Trek series because he found the characters interesting and his current favourite show is 'Lost' - I mentioned him here because, even though he's a man, he likes a bit of drama more than a lot of women do.
I can watch it - it just wasnt the kind of show that made sure I didnt miss the next episode. Some nights I was up til all hours of the morning waiting for B5 because of the tennis (I am in Aus). DS9 was the kind that I could wait for it to come out on video. LOL

And yeah, my Hub likes some Drama's too. But thankfully he is more Sci Fi and so, I can forgive him his lapses in judgment.
Hallowed are the Sci Fi Shows! :D

PG15
February 5th, 2008, 05:00 PM
write what ever the heck you want...they just put a spineless weasel in charge of the expedition. Can't get much lower than that...and they made us wait and extra day to find out too.

Yeah, because the writers were responsible for SciFi Wire. :rolleyes:

I was hoping we'd get Woolsey, and I'm sooo glad that I was right! Finally, we get a leader that ensures conflict with the rest of the team.

And in the immortal words of Joe Mallozzi: Who's more annoying, Woolsey, or McKay from 48 Hours/Redemption?

Think about it.

JohnRico
February 5th, 2008, 05:04 PM
Finally, we get a leader that ensures conflict with the rest of the team

At what risk though ? They should have tested something like this out back then & they should have had Kinsey in charge of the SGC for a while & see fans react to that. They better be very careful with this decision.

ToasterOnFire
February 5th, 2008, 06:09 PM
I was hoping we'd get Woolsey, and I'm sooo glad that I was right! Finally, we get a leader that ensures conflict with the rest of the team.
It didn't require a new leader to guarantee conflict though - TPTB could have easily written in conflict while Weir was in charge or when Carter took command. Why didn't they do so? Why is the implication that TPTB have to change characters in order to write a certain way instead of writing that way in the first place?

PG15
February 5th, 2008, 06:46 PM
Because neither Weir nor Carter were as irritating and unheroic as Woolsey is/will be. They are both...people-person, as it were. Having constant conflicts between someone as nice as Weir or Carter and Shep would've been uncharacteristic of those two.

ToasterOnFire
February 5th, 2008, 07:10 PM
Conflict still happens between nice, people-persons though. I think an underlying conflict between Shep and Carter in regards to finding Weir would have been entirely realistic for both characters. Shep's mad, Carter holds her ground, Shep talks about not leaving people behind, Carter brings up the safety of Atlantis and keeping quiet around the Asurans. That's something that could have happened over several eps instead of what amounted to a handful of lines.

There's some interesting subtext with all this too, about how the two female leaders of Atlantis are "nice" while the new male leader is not and therefore that guarantees conflict. It brings up gender roles and how women tend to be placaters and avoid conflict in order to be seen as nice, while men can be irritating and rude and pursue conflict and all that.

Mitchell82
February 5th, 2008, 07:14 PM
Conflict still happens between nice, people-persons though. I think an underlying conflict between Shep and Carter in regards to finding Weir would have been entirely realistic for both characters. Shep's mad, Carter holds her ground, Shep talks about not leaving people behind, Carter brings up the safety of Atlantis and keeping quiet around the Asurans. That's something that could have happened over several eps instead of what amounted to a handful of lines.

Except conflict between a superior officer and you just doesnt happen. You can suggest something but in the end he/she are numero uno. With Weir yeah there was some conflict but I can see way more in this instance.

gatechick
February 5th, 2008, 07:16 PM
Plea to the writers: How about bringing in a Goa'uld infested Wraith. I think they would make a great storyline.

PG15
February 5th, 2008, 07:18 PM
True, but really, I was just hoping for someone different than the usual leader-type. The conflict will just be a bonus for me.

Mitchell82
February 5th, 2008, 07:22 PM
True, but really, I was just hoping for someone different than the usual leader-type. The conflict will just be a bonus for me.

Agreed.

Admiral Mappalazarou
February 5th, 2008, 10:55 PM
Plea to the writers: How about bringing in a Goa'uld infested Wraith. I think they would make a great storyline.

What...the...hell?

Just no. Whats wrong with bringing in a NEW baddy and making it original....? :mckay:

gatechick
February 6th, 2008, 04:31 AM
What...the...hell?

Just no. Whats wrong with bringing in a NEW baddy and making it original....? :mckay:

Nothing at all. That would be fine too.

P-90_177
February 6th, 2008, 04:39 AM
Plea to the writers: How about bringing in a Goa'uld infested Wraith. I think they would make a great storyline.


What...the...hell?

Just no. Whats wrong with bringing in a NEW baddy and making it original....? :mckay:

I see nothing wrong with having a goa'uld infested wraith to atlantis. Like make it a one off like in critical mass.

SG13-NightOps
February 6th, 2008, 08:52 PM
What...the...hell?

Just no. Whats wrong with bringing in a NEW baddy and making it original....? :mckay:

The last time they did that, we got the Ori. You wanna roll those dice??? :hallowed:

The TARDIS
February 6th, 2008, 08:58 PM
The last time they did that, we got the Ori. You wanna roll those dice??? :hallowed:

Hell...if we could get an enemy of the same caliber as the Ori again, yes please! :docianime15:

Fenrir Foxz
February 6th, 2008, 09:01 PM
Hell...if we could get an enemy of the same caliber as the Ori again, yes please! :docianime15:

I concur! :D :P

SG13-NightOps
February 6th, 2008, 10:48 PM
Hell...if we could get an enemy of the same caliber as the Ori again, yes please! :docianime15:

I have no problem with the "Ori" as a bad guy. Just the manner in which they were handled. And their so easy to defeat-ness.