Lord of the rings and other tolkien works campaign thread!

[tombombadil]

Alright! we have to prove to the mods that there's enough interest on Gateworld for there to be a separate section For LOTR outside General Sci-Fi and Fantasy. All for it discuss away! here's a starting topic, What is Tom Bombadil? Next topic, What races did hobbits originate from? was frodo gay? what wizzard was stronger, Gandalf, Saruman, or Radagast?what became of the other wizzards not mentioned? where are the entwives? was gollum a victim or villain? please don't answer each question at once, pace yourself so you have time to think.
and if you know of any GW members that ike lord of the rings, inform them of this thread.

[Col.Foley]

I would certainly love to see this, and way back when I wondered why there was not one, with the realease of the movies, and such a great interest in the franchise of late.

[starshineRoxie]

In truth, Tom I think the reason why I was always so fascinated by LOTR was how closely it resembled a lot of the old British and Norse mythologies. Hobbits? Dwarves? Elves? Was the LOTR books Tolkien's way of expressing what his idea of what really happened long ago was? Or is it just extremely vivid and complex imagination based upon the only little known knowledge we have so far from so long ago in history?

[tombombadil]

NOW THEN! getting on topic, he's my tom bombadil theory.
I beleive he is the personification of morgoth's/melkor's innocence. that would explain many things about him. Such as, why "his songs are stronger". Morgoth was originally a valar, and the valar of course used their music to create. also this would explain why the ring had no effect on him, because melkor was sauron's master, and therefore had more power then sauron and could'nt be controlled by him. this would also explain what he meant hen he said he existed before the dark lord. furthermore, this would explain the guilt/somber feeling he had when he looked at the ruins. wouldn't you feel guilty if you, or at least part of you caused mass destruction?

[tombombadil]

In truth, Tom I think the reason why I was always so fascinated by LOTR was how closely it resembled a lot of the old British and Norse mythologies. Hobbits? Dwarves? Elves? Was the LOTR books Tolkien's way of expressing what his idea of what really happened long ago was? Or is it just extremely vivid and complex imagination based upon the only little known knowledge we have so far from so long ago in history?

VERY GOOD QUESTION! yet the answer is neither a yes, nor a no, rather both. It was sort of an expression of how tolkien felt the world once was, but the stuff that everyone says to be "impossible" was meant to be taken literaly. and as for the Norse mythology, many of the dwarfs in LOTR are named after dwarves in Norse Mythology. here's a link to help
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...-earth_Dwarves

[cowpants]

Alright! we have to prove to the mods that there's enough interest on Gateworld for there to be a separate section For LOTR outside General Sci-Fi and Fantasy. All for it discuss away! here's a starting topic, What is Tom Bombadil? Next topic, What races did hobbits originate from? was frodo gay? what wizzard was stronger, Gandalf, Saruman, or Radagast?what became of the other wizzards not mentioned? where are the entwives? was gollum a victim or villain? please don't answer each question at once, pace yourself so you have time to think.
and if you know of any GW members that ike lord of the rings, inform them of this thread.

I'm not sure LotR really needs an entire section of the forum devoted to it. A good thread should suffice. A thread such as this.

As for your topics:
1) Goofy
2) Vern Troyer
3) Sam and Frodo: MEANT TO BE!
4) Gandalf, of course.
5) They went evil then died.
6) The entwives all turned into regular trees.
7) Both.

And oops! I answered them all. I suppose I could do a more in depth thing later.

NOW THEN! getting on topic, he's my tom bombadil theory.
I beleive he is the personification of morgoth's/melkor's innocence. that would explain many things about him. Such as, why "his songs are stronger". Morgoth was originally a valar, and the valar of course used their music to create. also this would explain why the ring had no effect on him, because melkor was sauron's master, and therefore had more power then sauron and could'nt be controlled by him. this would also explain what he meant hen he said he existed before the dark lord. furthermore, this would explain the guilt/somber feeling he had when he looked at the ruins. wouldn't you feel guilty if you, or at least part of you caused mass destruction?

I disagree. I don't believe that Morgoth was supposed to have any innocence in the first place, being corrupted by power right from the get go. Morgoth was pure evil, Tom was definitely not. Yes, Morgoth was originally a Valar (and still is, btw ), but there were many Valar and Maiar that sang to create the world of Ea. Tom could have potentially been any of them, or maybe even none of them. As for the ring, the way the ring seemed to work was that it took all your wants and desires and super intensified them to the point of corruption. Everybody who was tempted by the ring, Gandalf, Galadriel, Aragorn, Boromir, etc. wanted to use it to do something good, but resisted it because they knew that it would corrupt them. The ring had no effect on Tom because he was perfectly content with everything. He had no desires, no worries, no cares. The ring didn't work because Tom just didn't care about it. As for your last point about the Barrow Downs, I believe he looked at the ruins somberly but not guiltily. Tom was older than the world. He knew the people that lived there. He watched the place be built, he watched it thrive, and he watched it be torn down. It's like a WW2 vet returning to an old battleground 60 years later. He looked at the place sadly as his mind was flooded with memories of those who were there long ago.

A question that occurs to me, if Tom was Morgoth's innocence, why was he confined to the Old Forest? When Frodo asks Goldberry "Who is Tom Bombadil?" and she replies "He is", what does that mean? And what would be the significance of Goldberry herself?

That being said, I still like your theory far better than the theory that Tom Bombadil was Eru Illuvatar in Middle Earth.

I used to have an professor many years ago who was a huge Tolkien fan, and he wrote a paper on the role of Tom Bombadil in the Lord of the Rings. It doesn't answer any questions, but if you'd like to read about some of the history and purposes of the character, you can check out the link here.

[DuncTK421]

The theory that Tom is Morgoth's innocence is a new one for me. I'd always taken Tom to be one of the Ainur, or a very powerful nature spirit.

[gopher65]

To respond to the original poster's idea: if you look at the threads that exist in what use to be called the alternate universe section, they are all programs that exist on the SciFi channel. If I had to guess I would guess that the existence of those threads is essentially a paid advertisement by SciFi (and the fact that that section is now called "SciFi Stream"). Just like the banner ads on various parts of the site. That's just my wild guess though, so take that for what it is worth.

Conclusion: if it isn't a TV show on SciFi, it isn't going to get its own thread, ever. That's why tripe like Bionic Woman has its own thread, but Star Wars, Batman, Terminator, The Forbidden Planet, and Back to the Future don't (just to pick a bunch of random examples). And why their is no Superman thread, but there is a Smallville thread.

[tombombadil]

That being said, I still like your theory far better than the theory that Tom Bombadil was Eru Illuvatar in Middle Earth.

thanks. and tolkien officially stated that tom and eru aren't the same being.

i thought that morgoth didn't become evil until he saw the power of the music and wanted it for himself.

[cowpants]

thanks. and tolkien officially stated that tom and eru aren't the same being.

i thought that morgoth didn't become evil until he saw the power of the music and wanted it for himself.

Yeah, I know Tolkien said that. Still hasn't stopped speculation, though.

I honestly couldn't remember when Morgoth got evil, so I spent most of the day waiting until I could get home and find my copy of the Silmarillion. Here's the passage where Melkor comes up.

"But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Illuvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and the glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Illuvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the fire, for it is with Illuvatar. But alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren."

So, what it sounds like to me, is that all the Ainur were hanging around in this big boring place all together, and Melkor was allowed to travel away from the rest of the Ainur. Melkor wanted to create stuff in the big empty void, and got impatient with Illuvatar. He wasn't necessarily corrupted, he just got annoyed and impatient, and started trying to take matters into his own hands. He saw the creation music as an opportunity to further his own goals more than as a corrupting force. He just wanted a bit of independence, it sounds like to me.

[tombombadil]

"But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Illuvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and the glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Illuvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the fire, for it is with Illuvatar. But alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren."

So, what it sounds like to me, is that all the Ainur were hanging around in this big boring place all together, and Melkor was allowed to travel away from the rest of the Ainur. Melkor wanted to create stuff in the big empty void, and got impatient with Illuvatar. He wasn't necessarily corrupted, he just got annoyed and impatient, and started trying to take matters into his own hands. He saw the creation music as an opportunity to further his own goals more than as a corrupting force. He just wanted a bit of independence, it sounds like to me.

And doesn't that impatience seem like a child like innocence? similar to what Tom exhibited?(sorry it took so long to respond BTW)

[P-90_177]

erm............................................yeah............................. ..............i like all the pointy swords they use............................

[tombombadil]

erm............................................yeah............................. ..............i like all the pointy swords they use............................

i prefer Gimli's ax!

[Jumper_One]

i prefer Gimli's ax!

woohoo Gimli

[Childermass]

Alright! we have to prove to the mods that there's enough interest on Gateworld for there to be a separate section For LOTR outside General Sci-Fi and Fantasy. All for it discuss away! here's a starting topic, What is Tom Bombadil? Next topic, What races did hobbits originate from? was frodo gay? what wizzard was stronger, Gandalf, Saruman, or Radagast?what became of the other wizzards not mentioned? where are the entwives? was gollum a victim or villain? please don't answer each question at once, pace yourself so you have time to think.
and if you know of any GW members that ike lord of the rings, inform them of this thread.

This thread is sadly neglected.

My answers:

1. I always thought of Tom as a personification of Middle-earth itself. Remember that he did not have any power over the Ring, rather the Ring had no power over him. There's a difference.
2. Hobbits are Hobbits. The Periannath. The Halflings. That's their race.
3. Frodo was not gay, thank you very much.
4. Before Gandalf was the "White", Saruman was stronger. Gandalf later usurped Saruman's postion and became the stronger one.
5. The Istari were sent to strive with Sauron. When that task was completed, I believe they were supposed to return to their masters the Valar.
6. No idea. I think it's supposed to be a mystery.
7. Gollum was both victim and villain.

erm............................................yeah............................. ..............i like all the pointy swords they use............................

I don't think Aragorn would appreciate Anduril, Flame of the West, forged from the Shards of Narsil being called a "pointy sword".

Maybe some new questions to bring in more posts? Like, how many Black Numenorians were there? What happens to the souls of Orcs when they die, if they do have souls? And most importantly, who's cuter? Aragorn or Legolas?