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P-90_177
January 19th, 2008, 04:34 AM
Well now you have your answer.........She's young for a doctor because she skipped 3 grades!!!!!

JackHarkness_Hot
January 19th, 2008, 04:53 AM
She's one smart lassie ain't she!

GateLadyM
January 19th, 2008, 06:59 AM
Well now you have your answer.........She's young for a doctor because she skipped 3 grades!!!!!

That doesn't make her a good doctor. She fully admitted no people skills, and the worst thing to ever happen to her was to miss some parties. Give me a break. The people around her have seen family and friends MURDERED and she is worried about parties???

Learning how to deal with "people" takes years of experience. She remains a whiny amateur.

Willow'sCat
January 19th, 2008, 07:02 AM
Keller rocks! I love her for being human, with faults and not some super!doctor who over steps the mark and thinks they are god. :beckett::cool:

\o/ Keller!

SGFerrit
January 19th, 2008, 07:12 AM
I am really liking Keller, I tink she comes off as scared but is much stronger and capable than she would have people believe. Sh proved that near the end of Missing where she shot the spy, and when she didn't give out infomration to the Bola Kai.

VSS
January 19th, 2008, 07:22 AM
Well now you have your answer.........She's young for a doctor because she skipped 3 grades!!!!!

Not enough. She'd have to have skipped somewhere around 10. At least.

erb
January 19th, 2008, 07:23 AM
I already knew she was a child prodigy. This is not news. The problem has always been and still is....you need training and experience. I think most people would allow for being a young doctor because of the genius thing. But how do you get from that to having had enough history behind you to be CMO. Give me a freaking break!

Totally ridiculous character and she bores me when she's not annoying me.

As for not being a "super doc":rolleyes: .....yeah, she's just your average doc who managed to clep out of necessary training.

My least favorite character next to Lucius.

jdog
January 19th, 2008, 09:10 AM
kellers hot leave her alone, ill send the wookie after you.

SierraGolf-OneNiner
January 19th, 2008, 09:19 AM
kellers hot leave her alone, ill send the wookie after you.

:ronananime16: :tealcanime23:

Just being hot doesn't count. ;)

She doesn't have any character and is poorly written. She needs to be written better or written out of the show.

She drags the show down. Don't get me wrong as I stated in another thread I loved Jewel on Firefly. But she ain't a doctor.

Calicto
January 19th, 2008, 10:35 AM
Keller is a poorly thought out excuse for a doctor. For those who do not know, you can be the smartest person in the planet and still be a lousy doctor. Becoming a good doctor is a combination of EXPERIENCE and INTELLIGENCE. They should send someone to ATLANTIS, one of the most important missions for earth with EXPERIENCE. Period.

They should have sent Gregory House. He'd probably replace McKay, Zelenka and Keller.

Shan Bruce Lee
January 19th, 2008, 10:46 AM
I like the character. She may not be as funny as Carson but who cares about that.

Lord batchi ball
January 19th, 2008, 10:47 AM
I would have to admit that I am wrong about Keller. The first episode she seemed very young, but as the season has gone along she seems to have found her place.

So now I would say she is a great character.

prion
January 19th, 2008, 11:15 AM
Keller is a poorly thought out excuse for a doctor. For those who do not know, you can be the smartest person in the planet and still be a lousy doctor. Becoming a good doctor is a combination of EXPERIENCE and INTELLIGENCE. They should send someone to ATLANTIS, one of the most important missions for earth with EXPERIENCE. Period.

They should have sent Gregory House. He'd probably replace McKay, Zelenka and Keller.

Bwashahah! Wow, Rodney would sure find an adversary with House, who wouldn't coddle the scientist, but instead outline every single flaw the scientist has. Ouch.

But yes, Keller seems to lack experience. An older doctor (only because you usually gain more experience as time goes on) who had COMBAT experience, etc. would be good. The thing is, what is her specialty? They haven't said that. One doctor can't do it all. You need surgeons, internists, etc. In other words, more than one key doctor.

Avenger
January 19th, 2008, 11:16 AM
That doesn't make her a good doctor. She fully admitted no people skills, and the worst thing to ever happen to her was to miss some parties. Give me a break. The people around her have seen family and friends MURDERED and she is worried about parties???

Learning how to deal with "people" takes years of experience. She remains a whiny amateur.

She admitted being socially inept. Not a lack of people skills when it came to her job. There's a difference.

1138
January 19th, 2008, 11:20 AM
Not enough. She'd have to have skipped somewhere around 10. At least.

It's possible for her to skip only 3 grades. If she skipped 3 grades, she would have graduated high school at 15. Then, she goes for a pre-med program, which is about 2 to 3 years and gives her a non-Honours Bachelor's degree (Queen's university offers something like that in Canada; it's also possible to get a full Honours Bachelor's degree in science in 3 years - the curriculum isn't that hard). Medical school is 4 years and the residency is 5 to 8 years. That would make her 26 to 30 years old, which isn't that much older than Jewel Staite (25). It's pushing it into the realm of "unlikely" but not impossible.

Avenger
January 19th, 2008, 11:21 AM
She also said she got her BS before she could vote, so she was 17.

Jeffala
January 19th, 2008, 11:28 AM
She also said she got her BS before she could vote, so she was 17.

Which would indicate that quite a few of her high school classes doubled as college credit and she completed the rest of her Bachelor's in two-three years (depending on when her birthday fell).

Avenger
January 19th, 2008, 11:30 AM
So that's another 1-2 years ahead of the curve.

Mitchell82
January 19th, 2008, 11:37 AM
That doesn't make her a good doctor. She fully admitted no people skills, and the worst thing to ever happen to her was to miss some parties. Give me a break. The people around her have seen family and friends MURDERED and she is worried about parties???

Learning how to deal with "people" takes years of experience. She remains a whiny amateur.
I disagree.

Mitchell82
January 19th, 2008, 11:39 AM
She admitted being socially inept. Not a lack of people skills when it came to her job. There's a difference.

A huge difference. She has shown that despite her being young and not ready for this position that she is a great doctor and knows what she is doing.

sueKay
January 19th, 2008, 11:44 AM
Keller's immature...her actual age is irrelevant...she's 'young' for her age, even if she is a genius

Mitchell82
January 19th, 2008, 11:48 AM
Keller's immature...her actual age is irrelevant...she's 'young' for her age, even if she is a genius

I disagree. What do you think shows she is immature?

sueKay
January 19th, 2008, 11:50 AM
Uhm...her 'me me me' stuff?

Such as crying over her ankle in 'missing'

Mitchell82
January 19th, 2008, 11:56 AM
Uhm...her 'me me me' stuff?

Such as crying over her ankle in 'missing'

What "me me me" stuff? Her reaction in Missing was understandable IMO. She was truly not ready for the position nor did she know what she was getting into. She is a wimp about pain, so what? ALot of people (my wife included) are. SHe more than proved her "mettel" in that ep and definatly since as well.

Avenger
January 19th, 2008, 12:40 PM
Uhm...her 'me me me' stuff?

Such as crying over her ankle in 'missing'

How about we throw you out in that situation and see how you react? She was scared and rightfully so.

Mitchell82
January 19th, 2008, 12:47 PM
How about we throw you out in that situation and see how you react? She was scared and rightfully so.

Thank you!

Detox
January 19th, 2008, 01:07 PM
Uhm...her 'me me me' stuff?

Such as crying over her ankle in 'missing'

So you're telling us that if you were being chase by cannibals, and you injured your ankles. You wouldn't start crying?

Bull ****.

drake122
January 19th, 2008, 01:32 PM
Keller is definitely too young to be considered a good doctor. Years, perhaps even decades are required for a doctor to become skilled and experienced in the field.

However, it is obvious the creators didn't opt for a female doctor in her mid fifties... that would have attracted lot less viewers. :)

SierraGolf-OneNiner
January 19th, 2008, 01:52 PM
So you're telling us that if you were being chase by cannibals, and you injured your ankles. You wouldn't start crying?

Bull ****.

If I would be in that situation unarmed I would get totally crazy for about 2 to 3 minutes. "Oh my god I'm so dead!" Over and over again but then I would pull myself together and start fighting back.

Let me share something from my past. I had a very bad time in school. I was the geek and so on. They came after me because they thought I was easy prey. After running away and crying and thinking I'm so dead for the 3 min I ran into a corner where I knew no one could attack me from behind. Then I took a piece of wood and waited for them. Man that was a fight. I wasn't the only one bleeding. Never underestimate the survival instinct of a human. I know those guys aren't cannibals but they were bad as hell anyway.

What Keller did was understandable for about 10 min of the episode Missing but no longer. She should have gotten her act together and fought back. Well she eventually did but it took her 40 min of the episode.

Avenger
January 19th, 2008, 01:57 PM
Stop applying what you would do to what happened in that episode. People react differently, and there are people who wouldn't be able get over it after ten minutes, or ever, for that matter.

ToasterOnFire
January 19th, 2008, 02:18 PM
Stop applying what you would do to what happened in that episode. People react differently, and there are people who wouldn't be able get over it after ten minutes, or ever, for that matter.
Yep, and those people would never make it past the screening process to work on Atlantis, much less go offworld. How Keller got through is baffling. Sure she's a medical prodigy, but she's embarrassingly green when it comes to difficult situations and military knowledge. Thank goodness she squeezed through before the military got its mitts on Atlantis - she would never have made the cut after that.

IMForeman
January 19th, 2008, 02:42 PM
I hope her and Ronon pursue the attraction they felt in this episode. As soon as Ronon came into the infirmary with "another sparring injury" I had a Shawn Spencer like flash of "He likes her. He's letting himself get tagged on purpose so she can sew him up."

I don't blame him. Jewel Staite's a cutie and Dr. Keller is as well.

Agent_Dark
January 19th, 2008, 03:22 PM
kellers hot leave her alone, ill send the wookie after you.

listen to this man, and take his words to heart. he's not joking.

Agent_Dark
January 19th, 2008, 03:24 PM
Yep, and those people would never make it past the screening process to work on Atlantis, much less go offworld. How Keller got through is baffling. Sure she's a medical prodigy, but she's embarrassingly green when it comes to difficult situations and military knowledge. Thank goodness she squeezed through before the military got its mitts on Atlantis - she would never have made the cut after that.

i thought people preferred atlantis to be civilianised - isn't that what you're saying about Weir being gone? Now you're arguing that the characters aren't military enough?

Avenger
January 19th, 2008, 03:36 PM
Yep, and those people would never make it past the screening process to work on Atlantis, much less go offworld. How Keller got through is baffling. Sure she's a medical prodigy, but she's embarrassingly green when it comes to difficult situations and military knowledge. Thank goodness she squeezed through before the military got its mitts on Atlantis - she would never have made the cut after that.

That could be said for nearly all the civilian personnel. You think Katie Brown would hold up in the same situation? Or many of the other scientists that we've seen? Rodney still freaks out when Sheppard isn't there to keep him from losing it. Is it time to lose all the civilians in favor of military personnel who can handle the rigors of the assignment?

[mod snip]

ToasterOnFire
January 19th, 2008, 04:20 PM
i thought people preferred atlantis to be civilianised - isn't that what you're saying about Weir being gone? Now you're arguing that the characters aren't military enough?
Um, no. I'm arguing that new people who are going to Atlantis and muck around offworld, which they've known for years is quite dangerous, should have some experience with survival and military tactics. Keller seems to have little to none.

If the military is truly in charge of Atlantis now, then they should be even more stringent on who's allowed to come over or even stay in charge. However TPTB appear to have thrown military regulations to the wind in the past few years of the franchise, so I doubt that will ever come up.


That could be said for nearly all the civilian personnel. You think Katie Brown would hold up in the same situation? Or many of the other scientists that we've seen? Rodney still freaks out when Sheppard isn't there to keep him from losing it. Is it time to lose all the civilians in favor of military personnel who can handle the rigors of the assignment?
IMO, Katie shouldn't be there either, especially since it's likely she goes offworld for botany trips. But who knows, maybe behind that meek exterior lies a gal who can shut up and shoot a gun like nobody's business. She's a nonissue after Quarantine anyway - after her and Rodney went their separate ways we'll likely never see her again, thank the gods.

Rodney's case is slightly different, as he's the foremost scientific expert and is often useful when first encountering new technologies and the like offworld. Plus, he's saved the team's ass offworld more often than anyone else. I'm sick of his whining and hysterias myself - TPTB can tone that down any day now. :mckay:

[mod snip]

Avenger
January 19th, 2008, 04:24 PM
Atlantis was touted as a civilian expedition from the start. They need the civilians for all the research they are doing. It would not be possible for it to be a strictly military operation. In that light, it is necessary that there be civilians who aren't hardasses in the field. Just like military personnel have their share of weaknesses, so to the civilians.

Gala
January 19th, 2008, 04:47 PM
I fail too see why people expect a doctor who isnt there to go offworld would have some kind of military training.

What you expect? She helped cut dr.weirds head off Id say that counts as having a strong stomach at the very least.

FallenAngelII
January 19th, 2008, 04:56 PM
A huge difference. She has shown that despite her being young and not ready for this position that she is a great doctor and knows what she is doing.
Being a great doctor does not automatically qualify you for being CMO of something as important as Atlantis. It's been stated already, but you need experience and specific abilities to do the job. It's like how you can be a great athlete and a great soldier and read up on everything you need to know about the Wraith. It does not mean that you'd be the perfect soldier to send out if they needed a one-man job to infiltrate a Wraith hive.

There's a lot of things you can't learn just from reading about it.

Avenger
January 19th, 2008, 04:59 PM
She hasn't failed as a doctor yet.

P-90_177
January 19th, 2008, 05:17 PM
You know. I came up with this topic about 12 hours ago.........I was not expectig this much of a discussion. lol.

Avenger
January 19th, 2008, 05:18 PM
Keller's a very touchy subject, especially for the hardcore Becket fans.

Agent_Dark
January 19th, 2008, 05:50 PM
well I guess the people who are against Keller being the CMO have a good reason to be happy that Weir is gone then. After all, it was Weir who picked Keller for the position - despite Keller herself saying she didn't think she was ready for teh job.

Shan Bruce Lee
January 19th, 2008, 07:33 PM
The "experience" arguement is kinda weak for a couple of reasons.

1. I don't care how old a doctor is or how much experience he has on Earth... they're not on Earth, they're on Atlantis. They're not even in our Galaxy.

2. The Atlantis expedition is turning into the Atlantis settlement. You want somebody who's gonna be there for a long time. Not just somebody who's gonna be there for a while then retire and have to bring in somebody new all over again. (keep in mind that Earth experience doesn't mean as much on Atlantis)

3. Carson wasn't exactly a grandfather when he came to Atlantis.

Ebeneezer_Goode
January 19th, 2008, 07:35 PM
That doesn't make her a good doctor. She fully admitted no people skills, and the worst thing to ever happen to her was to miss some parties. Give me a break. The people around her have seen family and friends MURDERED and she is worried about parties???

Learning how to deal with "people" takes years of experience. She remains a whiny amateur.

I know! Why couldn't the writers have just written her as another one dimensional flawless character that we can all worship?!?

[/sarcasm]

jelgate
January 19th, 2008, 07:37 PM
I know! Why couldn't the writers have just written her as another one dimensional flawless character that we can all worship?!?[/sarcasm]:lol::lol::lol:

Ripple in Space
January 19th, 2008, 09:06 PM
Well now you have your answer.........She's young for a doctor because she skipped 3 grades!!!!!

lol @ ignorance :P. As a med student who skipped three (four counting my B.S.) grades, I find it hilarious that you think that skipping three grades makes it all work out. Toaster, VastlySS and myself (we're all in the field) figured out that Keller would've had to have started Medical School when she was born in order for her credentials to be believable. Even then she'd be under qualified.

Now that we know she started College @ 15 it makes it even less believable, because no one can argue now that she began even younger. If she started college @ 15, she'd have to be in her late 30s right now.

jelgate
January 19th, 2008, 09:13 PM
Television has never been about realism. Have you seen how young some of the doctors on ER are.

Avenger
January 19th, 2008, 09:53 PM
lol @ ignorance :P. As a med student who skipped three (four counting my B.S.) grades, I find it hilarious that you think that skipping three grades makes it all work out. Toaster, VastlySS and myself (we're all in the field) figured out that Keller would've had to have started Medical School when she was born in order for her credentials to be believable. Even then she'd be under qualified.

Now that we know she started College @ 15 it makes it even less believable, because no one can argue now that she began even younger. If she started college @ 15, she'd have to be in her late 30s right now.

It's a TV show.

And thanks for the red. Appreciate it. Hadn't had one of those before. So what if it's not believable? There are other characters who aren't believable either. Either suspend your disbelief or don't. But seriously, redding someone because they disagree with you or don't think it's a horribly big deal is absurd.

Shan Bruce Lee
January 20th, 2008, 12:02 AM
lol @ ignorance :P. As a med student who skipped three (four counting my B.S.) grades, I find it hilarious that you think that skipping three grades makes it all work out. Toaster, VastlySS and myself (we're all in the field) figured out that Keller would've had to have started Medical School when she was born in order for her credentials to be believable. Even then she'd be under qualified.

Now that we know she started College @ 15 it makes it even less believable, because no one can argue now that she began even younger. If she started college @ 15, she'd have to be in her late 30s right now.

Maybe Keller spent all of her time studying instead of on the forums :mckayanime07:

magie
January 20th, 2008, 12:11 AM
Television has never been about realism. Have you seen how young some of the doctors on ER are.

I don't watch ER, but aren't some of those doctors supposed to be students ? To learn ?

No, the problem is that up until Keller, I thought the actors chosen were credible with the show, the age they were all supposed to be to access those incredible jobs on Atlantis. And that this credibility was thrown out the window when Keller was hired. Hence the "child prodigy" as a desperate attempt to explain Keller's youth. Unfortunately, that makes her a Mary Sue. The more I see her, the more I see Lana Lang from Smallville.

Personally, I think the writers/producers wanted JS and wrote Keller for her, instead of writing a new character fitting Atlantis and looking for an actor/actress to play it.

P-90_177
January 20th, 2008, 12:18 AM
lol @ ignorance :P. As a med student who skipped three (four counting my B.S.) grades, I find it hilarious that you think that skipping three grades makes it all work out. Toaster, VastlySS and myself (we're all in the field) figured out that Keller would've had to have started Medical School when she was born in order for her credentials to be believable. Even then she'd be under qualified.

Now that we know she started College @ 15 it makes it even less believable, because no one can argue now that she began even younger. If she started college @ 15, she'd have to be in her late 30s right now.

I wasn't being entirely serious. :S There was a hint of sarcasm in there......Hence my previous surprise that people were taking it so serriously. :o

silkie
January 20th, 2008, 12:20 AM
Is anyone on this thread actually a doctor?
From my personal experience a doctor reaches his peak at about 40. Why? Because there's only so much you can learn from books. No amount of book studying will beat years of personal hands on experience and mistakes (Yes tragically you'll probably learn much more from your or others failures than success)
Another think that irks me about Keller and doctors in Stargate what are they - G.P., surgeons (what kind?), internists, infectionists, geneticists, trauma specialists? No one can excel not even in one of these fields -each has subfields -it's really difficult to excel even in one of the subfields...

A doctor

Avenger
January 20th, 2008, 12:25 AM
Maybe Keller spent all of her time studying instead of on the forums :mckayanime07:

Bwahahahahahaha!

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 06:53 AM
She hasn't failed as a doctor yet.
Nor has she in any way shown herself to be more capable than your run of the mill doctor.


The "experience" arguement is kinda weak for a couple of reasons.

1. I don't care how old a doctor is or how much experience he has on Earth... they're not on Earth, they're on Atlantis. They're not even in our Galaxy.

2. The Atlantis expedition is turning into the Atlantis settlement. You want somebody who's gonna be there for a long time. Not just somebody who's gonna be there for a while then retire and have to bring in somebody new all over again. (keep in mind that Earth experience doesn't mean as much on Atlantis)

3. Carson wasn't exactly a grandfather when he came to Atlantis.
1) And this matters because? In fact, since they're in Atlantis, they need someone with more experience to be their CMO than someone who'd be the CMO at Stargate Command. Why? Because if push comes to shove, Stargate Command would fly people off to nearby hospitals/hospitals in other countries or fly a specialist in to Cheyenn Mountain. With a similar sitaution in Atlantis, they'd need to gate back to Earth (because they can't just bring people through the gate willy-nilly), which would take more precious time. Hence, the CMO and doctors in general need to be better.
2) It's turning into the Atlantis settlement? Like, what, with its own law and president? When did they say this? Have you been reading too many fanfics lately? Doctors do not retire at 40 or 50. And your excuse is "People might retire, therefore we can bring in younger underqualified greenhorns to get us all killed in order to spare ourselves the effort to bring in someone new again in 10 years should X-person retire"? O... K...
3) Nobody said you need to be a grand-father in order to qualify for CMO of Atlantis (Janet was not a grand-mother and she was CMO of Stargate Command) or a CMO in general. Keller, however, is way too young.

Read what Ripple in Space said. Apparently, he/she's in the know. He/she and two others who are themselves in the field calculated that in order for Keller's story to be believable, she'd had to have started studying medicine at age 0.

PG15
January 20th, 2008, 12:15 PM
Nor has she in any way shown herself to be more capable than your run of the mill doctor.


That's an interesting point. What WOULD show her to be exceptional? Does she have to solve every new disease/injury that comes her way?

Because that'd be just as unrealistic.

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 12:20 PM
That's an interesting point. What WOULD show her to be exceptional? Does she have to solve every new disease/injury that comes her way?

Because that'd be just as unrealistic.
No, but I just made the point that she's shown herself to be nothing but your run of the mill doctor. There's really nothing exceptional about her (so far) except her young age. I was rebutting the argument "She hasn't failed yet" with "Well she hasn't excelled yet either".

Neither are very good arguments but I was counter-arguing a bad argument with an equally bad argument on the other side of the spectrum to show how moot both points were.

Mitchell82
January 20th, 2008, 12:20 PM
Being a great doctor does not automatically qualify you for being CMO of something as important as Atlantis. It's been stated already, but you need experience and specific abilities to do the job. It's like how you can be a great athlete and a great soldier and read up on everything you need to know about the Wraith. It does not mean that you'd be the perfect soldier to send out if they needed a one-man job to infiltrate a Wraith hive.

There's a lot of things you can't learn just from reading about it.

True and as I've stated before she was only standing in for Carson temporairly and it became a permanant position. Also you can't compare being CMO to a combat position. Two different circumstances. Keller has proven she is a great doctor and a great CMO.

Mitchell82
January 20th, 2008, 12:23 PM
No, but I just made the point that she's shown herself to be nothing but your run of the mill doctor. There's really nothing exceptional about her (so far) except her young age. I was rebutting the argument "She hasn't failed yet" with "Well she hasn't excelled yet either".

Neither are very good arguments but I was counter-arguing a bad argument with an equally bad argument on the other side of the spectrum to show how moot both points were.

I disagree. No run of the mill doctor has the skills she does. Most doctors just a few years out of med school can't do a high risk neurosergery procedure like she did. Most run of the mill doctors don't deal with the things she does. She sure as hell has proven it IMO.

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 12:23 PM
True and as I've stated before she was only standing in for Carson temporairly and it became a permanant position. Also you can't compare being CMO to a combat position. Two different circumstances. Keller has proven she is a great doctor and a great CMO.
It was just an example of how you need certain kinds of experience and skills for certain jobs.

She was a bad temporary replacement and an even worse permanent choice since she didn't really do anything (that we saw) during the "probation period", which lasted a whopping, what, 1 month?

Also, she's "proven herself as a great CMO"? Examples of it didn't happen. In fact, she's proven herself to be a great doctor? What has she done on Atlantis that's so exceptional she's proven herself to be a great anything? I'm not saying she's proven herself to be a failure, but she hasn't really proven herself to be a whopping success either.

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 12:27 PM
I disagree. No run of the mill doctor has the skills she does. Most doctors just a few years out of med school can't do a high risk neurosergery procedure like she did. Most run of the mill doctors don't deal with the things she does. She sure as hell has proven it IMO.
Who says I was comparing her to people fresh out of med school? She's a run-of-the-mill surgeon and doctor when compared to other nominally to skilled ones.

The only exceptional thing about is that she's a child prodigy. The only impressive thing about her is that she can do what she does at her age. It does not mean she's automatically "special" in other ways just because she's really, really young.

And sorry, but I'd bet good money a majority of neurosurgeons are capable of performing the job they were studying for and hired for a few years after graduation.

She's proven herself to be a good doctor (run-of-the-mill does not mean "bad"). But, really, has she done anything to show she's a good choice as the CMO of Atlantis? Remember here, being CMO means a lot more than just being a capable doctor.

Mitchell82
January 20th, 2008, 12:28 PM
It was just an example of how you need certain kinds of experience and skills for certain jobs.

She was a bad temporary replacement and an even worse permanent choice since she didn't really do anything (that we saw) during the "probation period", which lasted a whopping, what, 1 month?

Also, she's "proven herself as a great CMO"? Examples of it didn't happen. In fact, she's proven herself to be a great doctor? What has she done on Atlantis that's so exceptional she's proven herself to be a great anything? I'm not saying she's proven herself to be a failure, but she hasn't really proven herself to be a whopping success either.

uh I just said it the complex procedure on Weir, the events in Doppleganger and Tabula Rasa despite her memory loss, her skills in Missing, and Quarantine and the Seer. So yeah she has IMO.

Mitchell82
January 20th, 2008, 12:29 PM
Who says I was comparing her to people fresh out of med school? She's a run-of-the-mill surgeon and doctor when compared to other nominally to skilled ones.

The only exceptional thing about is that she's a child prodigy. The only impressive thing about her is that she can do what she does at her age. It does not mean she's automatically "special" in other ways just because she's really, really young.

And sorry, but I'd bet good money a majority of neurosurgeons are capable of performing the job they were studying for and hired for a few years after graduation.

She's proven herself to be a good doctor (run-of-the-mill does not mean "bad"). But, really, has she done anything to show she's a good choice as the CMO of Atlantis? Remember here, being CMO means a lot more than just being a capable doctor. Uh most nerosurgeons are 10X her age so that proves her skills are very good.

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 12:34 PM
uh I just said it the complex procedure on Weir, the events in Doppleganger and Tabula Rasa despite her memory loss, her skills in Missing, and Quarantine and the Seer. So yeah she has IMO.
I haven't seen Quarantine yet and unless she does something exceptional, I'm not changing my mind about her just yet. Also, it's kinda telling that you can only name things that happened after her position became permanent. This shows how little there was going for her before she became permanent (other than "Potential"... but that's not something you base such an important decision on. Haley had to train extensively for years and even undergo tests of character before getting into the Stargate program).

Adrift/Lifeline: She performed a complex neurosurgical procedure on Elizabeth. And? This shows she should be the CMO because? It shows she should be their resident neurosurgeon.

Doppelganger: What did she do in this episode, really, except stumbling upon the discovery that the creature is weak against electric shock due to sheer dumb luck?

Missing: What skills in "Missing"? I don't really recall much of it, please refresh my memory.

Tabula Rasa: She did what, really, except sit around in a corner asking questions? She didn't really do much in that episode. She wasn't a failure but I remember nothing exceptional coming from her in that episode.

The Seer: She's capable of doing a CAT-scan and discovering brain cancer. And? I'd bet good money any doctor versed in brain cancer is capable of doing that.

Important note: We are not arguing whether she's a capable doctor. We're arguing whether she should be the CMO of Atlantis, a job that requires a lot more than being a capable doctor.

Arica12
January 20th, 2008, 12:34 PM
Having thought about it I don't actually think that Keller's age is the problem here. Yes her age is ludicrous but if I really liked the character it wouldn't bother me, or rather I would live with it. I mean step back and examine any of the Stargate characters and you can argue how improbable each of them are. If I liked the character then although the age thing would probably annoy me a bit it wouldn't grate on me the way it does with Keller. I think it's only the symptom of a much deeper problem with Keller

Killdeer
January 20th, 2008, 12:37 PM
Having thought about it I don't actually think that Keller's age is the problem here. Yes her age is ludicrous but if I really liked the character it wouldn't bother me, or rather I would live with it. I mean step back and examine any of the Stargate characters and you can argue how improbable each of them are. If I liked the character then although the age thing would probably annoy me a bit it wouldn't grate on me the way it does with Keller. I think it's only the symptom of a much deeper problem with Keller

I agree with that completely. The age thing is crazy, but I was willing to accept that in Doppelganger when I still liked the character. Speaking for myself, I have other issues with the character, and the age thing is only an added irritation.

PG15
January 20th, 2008, 12:38 PM
I haven't seen Quarantine yet and unless she does something exceptional, I'm not changing my mind about her just yet. Also, it's kinda telling that you can only name things that happened after her position became permanent. This shows how little there was going for her before she became permanent (other than "Potential"... but that's not something you base such an important decision on. Haley had to train extensively for years and even undergo tests of character before getting into the Stargate program).

Adrift/Lifeline: She performed a complex neurosurgical procedure on Elizabeth. And? This shows she should be the CMO because? It shows she should be their resident neurosurgeon.

Doppelganger: What did she do in this episode, really, except stumbling upon the discovery that the creature is weak against electric shock due to sheer dumb luck?

Missing: What skills in "Missing"? I don't really recall much of it, please refresh my memory.

Tabula Rasa: She did what, really, except sit around in a corner asking questions? She didn't really do much in that episode. She wasn't a failure but I remember nothing exceptional coming from her in that episode.

The Seer: She's capable of doing a CAT-scan and discovering brain cancer. And? I'd bet good money any doctor versed in brain cancer is capable of doing that.

What would it take for you to see her as a CMO?

EdenSG
January 20th, 2008, 12:38 PM
Let me start by saying that as for Keller, I don’t dislike the character but I have not really warmed up to her completely yet. (but I think I may be starting to)

As to her being too young to be a doctor and CMO of Atlantis? Do we even know Keller’s age? Well if the character she plays is the same age as the actress than I would say yes. (I do work in the medical field as a nurse). But I don’t think the age of the character was ever mentioned – or have I missed something?

If you go by the actors age only than I would look at other characters too.
How old was MS when he got the part of Daniel –wasn’t it mid to late 20’s? Considering the movie happened 2 years earlier that puts him at a fairly young age to have all his degrees, research papers published and other accomplishments (I have done and published research – it took me 2 years alone to research, write and publish one simple study) Note: not a slight on MS or Daniel – I love MS and Daniel just using it as an example of how the age of the actor may not match the age of the character.
And Jason M., isn’t he about 28 years old? Considering he was a runner for 7 years and has been on Atlantis for over 2 years that would make him what, 18 or 19 years old during the flashback events of Sateda?
And Lexa Doig is in her very early 30’s? Her character Dr. Lamm was CMO of Stargate Command.
My point of all this is I think in Stargate, as well as many other TV shows, the age of actors/actresses and the age of characters they play are not always congruent and certain liberties or creative license if you will are often taken with a characters abilities.

Even if the character of Keller is several years older than the actress I can see how it could still be a bit of a stretch to see her as CMO. Overall I think she is a capable doctor and in the medical situations she has been in has performed well.
She obviously does not have the same credentials or background as Beckett. Actually Beckett was portrayed as more than just a medical doctor but also as a brilliant scientist and researcher – I always thought it a bit of a stretch that one person could be such an expert in so many different fields. But I think in Stargate the writers have always stretched the capabilities and abilities of the doctors.

So how did she get to be CMO of Atlantis? I think Weir was the one who pushed for that. In First Strike we find out that Weir appointed her, and then seemingly never looked for another replacement. Looking back at FS I think Weir saw a lot of potential in Keller even though Keller did not see it in herself. Perhaps after the events of FS, where Keller responded very well and appropriately to the crisis and the ensuing medical emergencies she proved herself capable to the IOA. If you are looking for field experience, what happened in FS was a good one.

Speaking of field experience do you need a lot of off world experience to qualify for an important position at Atlantis? Apparently not. Sheppard’s first trip through the gate was to Atlantis. Radek’s first off world trip was in “Duet” and it appears Beckett did not have a lot of, if any, off world experience either. And I am not sure, but how much off world experience did Rodney have? I don’t think it was much.

So in the end, does it bother me that Keller may be too young and too inexperienced to be CMO? Not too much. If Atlantis was a dramatization of actual events and not a make believe science fiction action/drama show than yes it would. It is a plot device. In the end it is how the character will be developed that will be most important to me and determine my ultimate opinion about the character.

Jumper_One
January 20th, 2008, 12:38 PM
hey FAII a little bit OT but I'm wondering what you thought of Frasier as doctor?

Killdeer
January 20th, 2008, 12:39 PM
What would it take for you to see her as a CMO?

A serious attitude adjustment.

Mitchell82
January 20th, 2008, 12:42 PM
I haven't seen Quarantine yet and unless she does something exceptional, I'm not changing my mind about her just yet. Also, it's kinda telling that you can only name things that happened after her position became permanent. This shows how little there was going for her before she became permanent (other than "Potential"... but that's not something you base such an important decision on. Haley had to train extensively for years and even undergo tests of character before getting into the Stargate program).
Again you can't compare a soldier position to a medical one that makes no sense.


Adrift/Lifeline: Did performed a complex neurosurgical procedure on Elizabeth. And? This shows she should be the CMO because? It shows she should be their resident neurosurgeon.
It shows she has exceptional skills for a young Doctor, and a great leadership ability.


Doppelganger: What did she do in this episode, really, except stumbling upon the discovery that the creature is weak against electric shock due to sheer dumb luck?
Well lets see. She figured out that the creature was using dreams to kill it's victims. She used a risky procedure to save Shepard's life.


Missing: What skills in "Missing"? I don't really recall much of it, please refresh my memory.
Despite her jitters she performed surgery in a warzone like environment with little to work with.


Tabula Rasa: She did what, really, except sit around in a corner asking questions? She didn't really do much in that episode. She wasn't a failure but I remember nothing exceptional coming from her in that episode.
She discoverd the illness before the quarntine happened and before she lost her memory she was treating a huge ammount of patients. It showed great skills under pressure.


The Seer: She's capable of doing a CAT-scan and discovering brain cancer. And? I'd bet good money any doctor versed in brain cancer is capable of doing that.
Her skills, bedisde manner and knowledge is what makes her a great Dr and CMO IMO.

PG15
January 20th, 2008, 12:42 PM
I don't know...she's very professional when she's doing doctor stuff. What she does and how she acts in her off time is her business.

Mitchell82
January 20th, 2008, 12:44 PM
I don't know...she's very professional when she's doing doctor stuff. What she does and how she acts in her off time is her business.

That's what I'm trying to say [mod snip]

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 12:46 PM
What would it take for you to see her as a CMO?
Read through all of my posts in this thread. Not even once have I ever said she's a failure as the CMO of Atlantis. I have only stated that as far as we know, she's severely underqualified because of lack of experience.

People are claiming she's proved herself "worthy" but I have yet to see her do anything that proves herself worthy. Lack of evidence does not mean evidence. Just because she hasn't done any colossal mistakes that shows she's unqualified does not mean she's automatically qualified.

People are claiming she's a good CMO and that she's proved herself. The burden of evidence lays with them.

People (including myself) think she's underqualified because of her age (unless the PTB are going to randomly state that she's really 35-40 and just looks much, much younger) and lack of experience (unless she started studying medicine at an age much younger than 15, which is now established canon). There's evidence for that.

The people who are claiming she's qualified, however, have to show evidence for that.


hey FAII a little bit OT but I'm wondering what you thought of Frasier as doctor?
She was a great CMO. She made mistakes but she was portrayed as capable and qualified from day one. There was nothing "mysterious" about her credentials.

silkie
January 20th, 2008, 12:47 PM
The age thing is crucial to me - normally she'd be in her 2nd year of residency...

Arica12
January 20th, 2008, 12:49 PM
I don't know...she's very professional when she's doing doctor stuff. What she does and how she acts in her off time is her business.

And if she were a real person I would say go girl live how you choose however this is a character I am supposed to enjoy watching and want to watch in the future so therefore it does matter.

I mean to me that is the problem, not her age or even her professionalism (though to be honest I haven't seen much professionalism from her). The character drives me nuts. She is everything I detest in a lot of women. That's why I dislike her, the age thing while annoying is far less important to me than that

Jumper_One
January 20th, 2008, 12:52 PM
She was a great CMO. She made mistakes but she was portrayed as capable and qualified from day one. There was nothing "mysterious" about her credentials.

oh ok because your list showed that you think Keller hasn't done anything extraordinary yet and since Frasier, Lam, Beckett and I don't know who might've done the same I didn't really know where you were going with those statements. but if you're talking about the way JS plays the character it'd be in the eye of the beholder

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 12:55 PM
It shows she has exceptional skills for a young Doctor, and a great leadership ability.
What great leadership ability? That she was able to say "Bring those patients over there! You! Tend to that patient!"? Again, she didn't fail but she didn't really do anything exeptional in "Lifeline/Adrift". And being exceptionally young for her skills does not make her qualified for being CMO of Atlantis either. It makes her a child prodigy and a very young doctor.


Well lets see. She figured out that the creature was using dreams to kill it's victims. She used a risky procedure to save Shepard's life.
No she didn't. She didn't figure out anything. You see, a lot of people became suspicious after creature!John started showing up in their dreams, including her, but none of them, including Keller, said anything like "This is serious" until Kate died. And when Kate died, it became pretty apparent that the creature was dangerous as she died by herself in her room with all of the bones in her body broken.

You see, you don't need to be a brilliant CMO to realize that the creature did it if some dream creature is walking around showing you your worst fears and then someone dies under really mysterious circumstances. What Keller did was determine the cause of death, a lot of doctors are capable of doing.

She became the first person to know exactly how Kate died, that is all.


Despite her jitters she performed surgery in a warzone like environment with little to work with.
She showed herself to be a great CMO because she had jitters but managed to supress them? You see, most people would want their CMOs to not have jitters at all. Again, she did not fail cataclysmically but she didn't really shine either. I'm not saying she shouldn't have had jitters, I'm saying that the episode didn't really show she's a capable CMO.

Again, capable doctors does not equal capable CMO.


She discoverd the illness before the quarntine happened and before she lost her memory she was treating a huge ammount of patients. It showed great skills under pressure.
Let's see... she's a medical doctor. She had samples taken from the people who had become sick. Of course she should've been at least one of the first people to discover it. It's her job.

She treated a lot of patients? What, by herself? When did we see her single-handedly treat a whole bunch of patients? And why did she do it? Because she had to. For all we know, she was horrible at it (for all we know). It's not like the episode showed she's capable of juggling 20 patients all at once and cure them all.

It showed her in a bad situation. It neither showed her succeeding or failing because shortly after, everyone lost their memory.


Her skills, bedisde manner and knowledge is what makes her a great Dr and CMO IMO.
What exceptional skills? You've shown, like, one instance where she did something exceptional. What knowledge? Of medical procedures? A ton of doctors have said knowledge and experience. I see you'd completely sidestepped the fact that she lacks obvious experience. You see, there are many doctors who can do what she does yet also possessing the experience needed in her position. She's a child prodigy. That's all she has that those people don't.

Bedside manners = Great CMO? Since when? Great bedside manners = Good doctors. That is all. You need more than that.


I don't know...she's very professional when she's doing doctor stuff. What she does and how she acts in her off time is her business.
No, you see, that makes her a good doctor. Being a good doctor does not automatically qualify you for being the CMO of anything.

Killdeer
January 20th, 2008, 12:57 PM
if you're talking about the way JS plays the character it'd be in the eye of the beholder

THAT is definitely true. :D

All I know is that she gets on my nerves, and it doesn't have anything to do with the age. My dislike for her has not yet reached the deep levels it did for another lovely sensitive young doctor (Allison Cameron on House - I do not think I have ever disliked a character to that extent), but it's going in the wrong direction.

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 01:00 PM
oh ok because your list showed that you think Keller hasn't done anything extraordinary yet and since Frasier, Lam, Beckett and I don't know who might've done the same I didn't really know where you were going with those statements. but if you're talking about the way JS plays the character it'd be in the eye of the beholder
You see, there's an important distinction between I and a big chunk of the other Keller-haters/dislikers in the anti-Keller pool:
I have never once argued that what she's done on-screen so far shows she's incapable of being a CMO. I am, however, arguing that what she's done so far is not anything special (in response to other people arguing that it is) and that none of it nullifies the fact that she must logically be supremely underqualified and lacking in experience because of her age.

Her age makes her a child prodigy, good for her. She still lacks a lot of vital experience and it cannot be made up merely by the fact that she's a child prodigy alone. It was a bad choice to make her a temporary replacement. It was an even worse choice to make her a permanent replacement when she didn't really do anything special to prove herself during the probation period.

It's like saying "Congratulations, you lack the experience and knowledge to do this, but you didn't get tons of people killed during the 'probation period' so you're hired!".

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 01:01 PM
THAT is definitely true. :D

All I know is that she gets on my nerves, and it doesn't have anything to do with the age. My dislike for her has not yet reached the deep levels it did for another lovely sensitive young doctor (Allison Cameron on House - I do not think I have ever disliked a character to that extent), but it's going in the wrong direction.
I don't want to sound rude, but that's a different argument altogether. That's arguing that you don't like the character for whatever reason.

I'm arguing that she's underqualified for her extremely important position because of her age. She's logically just too young to have even a fraction of the experience and knowledge needed for her position.

Jumper_One
January 20th, 2008, 01:12 PM
THAT is definitely true. :D

yup :)


You see, there's an important distinction between I and a big chunk of the other Keller-haters/dislikers in the anti-Keller pool:
I have never once argued that what she's done on-screen so far shows she's incapable of being a CMO. I am, however, arguing that what she's done so far is not anything special (in response to other people arguing that it is) and that none of it nullifies the fact that she must logically be supremely underqualified and lacking in experience because of her age.

she's done nothing special so far imo other than behave like a doctor that wants to help her patients. does this qualifies her being the CMO? IDK maybe, maybe not. everybody has their own opinion


Her age makes her a child prodigy, good for her. She still lacks a lot of vital experience and it cannot be made up merely by the fact that she's a child prodigy alone.

true experience is very important. however why not give TBTB the benefit of the doubt, we could've ended up with someone a lot worse than Keller. so she's not the perfect character, who is? also we have no idea how long she's been in Atlantis and what she did prior to this assignment


It was a bad choice to make her a temporary replacement. It was an even worse choice to make her a permanent replacement when she didn't really do anything special to prove herself during the probation period.

first of all that's your opinion, others will disagree. as for the bodled part, we haven't seen her do anything in s3 so it isn't fair to argue that she hasn't done anything special during that time


It's like saying "Congratulations, you lack the experience and knowledge to do this, but you didn't get tons of people killed during the 'probation period' so you're hired!".

well yes maybe but what about the other doctors? do they have the experience? are they old enough? do they want the job and more importantly could they handle it? there's a lot of unanswered questions

Avenger
January 20th, 2008, 01:21 PM
What, exactly, does she have to do to show that she's done something spectacular? All I'm reading is "She hasn't done anything spectacular yet" with out any suggestions on what she needs to do. Carson was just the doctor who showed up when they needed a doctor in the first season too.

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 01:25 PM
she's done nothing special so far imo other than behave like a doctor that wants to help her patients. does this qualifies her being the CMO? IDK maybe, maybe not. everybody has their own opinion
It makes her a qualified doctor, yeah.


true experience is very important. however why not give TBTB the benefit of the doubt, we could've ended up with someone a lot worse than Keller. so she's not the perfect character, who is? also we have no idea how long she's been in Atlantis and what she did prior to this assignment
That's not a very good argument. "Things could always be worse". Then Apophis wasn't really that bad... or Sokar for that mattter, after all, Anubis showed us how bad a Goa'uld can be.


first of all that's your opinion, others will disagree. as for the bodled part, we haven't seen her do anything in s3 so it isn't fair to argue that she hasn't done anything special during that time
You cannot base an argument on "We didn't see her not do it". We didn't see her do anything special medically during her probation period. We can only assume she didn't because if we assume she could've done a lot of special things, then I can assume John and Rodney are canoodling like rabbits every time they'er not on-screen.


well yes maybe but what about the other doctors? do they have the experience? are they old enough? do they want the job and more importantly could they handle it? there's a lot of unanswered questions
How about "Why Keller out of the bazillion of qualified being back on Earth"? Because "Well, Keller was on Atlantis before she got the assignment" is a pretty bad reason, especially since they had the Integalactic Bridge and she was made a temporary replacement. There were countless others qualified for the job but they made her position permanent. Why? Laziness? Bad reason.


What, exactly, does she have to do to show that she's done something spectacular? All I'm reading is "She hasn't done anything spectacular yet" with out any suggestions on what she needs to do. Carson was just the doctor who showed up when they needed a doctor in the first season too.
You see, I'm only counter-arguing when others claim that she has done spectacular things, though.

Carson had the experience and credentials needed for the position. As such, he didn't really have to "prove himself". Keller lacks vital experience, knowledge and credentials. One way to "make up" for it is for her to do a lot of spectacular things to show that she is indeed qualified. I am not demanding it, I am merely stating that despite what quite a few people are claiming, it has yet to happen.

Avenger
January 20th, 2008, 01:37 PM
Fair enough. I think, though, that if she came in and just started doing crazy doctor stuff from day one, it would have been a difficult sell to the general audience.

They should have made her an doctor who just transfered from a M*A*S*H in Iraq or something like that. That would have nipped the experience thing in the bud.

Arica12
January 20th, 2008, 01:37 PM
Unfortunately for Keller people are just not buying her as CMO. I don't know why; age, acting, writing it could be any of them, but the problem is People are just not buying her I don't know how that particular circle is squared

Jumper_One
January 20th, 2008, 01:40 PM
It makes her a qualified doctor, yeah.

yup that's all I'm saying


That's not a very good argument. "Things could always be worse". Then Apophis wasn't really that bad... or Sokar for that mattter, after all, Anubis showed us how bad a Goa'uld can be.

yeah I know :S :P what do you want me to say? is experience important? definitely. does Keller have it? she has a lot of knowledge but does lack actual experience. think of it this way: maybe TBTB wanted to bring in a young character with no experience so we might be able to see her grow and achieve more meaningful stuff throughout the seasons. Beckett is quite the opposite (he's older and has a lot of experience), there's a chance we might see both them next season


You cannot base an argument on "We didn't see her not do it". We didn't see her do anything special medically during her probation period. We can only assume she didn't because if we assume she could've done a lot of special things, then I can assume John and Rodney are canoodling like rabbits every time they'er not on-screen.

everything she's done during her probabtion period happened of screen, we can assume anything we want


How about "Why Keller out of the bazillion of qualified being back on Earth"? Because "Well, Keller was on Atlantis before she got the assignment" is a pretty bad reason, especially since they had the Integalactic Bridge and she was made a temporary replacement. There were countless others qualified for the job but they made her position permanent. Why? Laziness? Bad reason.

well the last part is obviously your opinion. we have no idea why Keller got the job as CMO so any guesses are pure speculation


You see, I'm only counter-arguing when others claim that she has done spectacular things, though.

oh I totally agree with you, Keller hasn't done anything special so far. however she also hasn't been a bad CMO


Carson had the experience and credentials needed for the position. As such, he didn't really have to "prove himself". Keller lacks vital experience, knowledge and credentials. One way to "make up" for it is for her to do a lot of spectacular things to show that she is indeed qualified. I am not demanding it, I am merely stating that despite what quite a few people are claiming, it has yet to happen.

true we have yet to say something extraordinary of her

Avenger
January 20th, 2008, 01:41 PM
Some people aren't. Others are. I think it's a tough position to be in given that a lot of fans like Carson and are projecting their dislike for the fact that he's gone onto the new character who replaced him.

Arica12
January 20th, 2008, 01:57 PM
Some people aren't. Others are. I think it's a tough position to be in given that a lot of fans like Carson and are projecting their dislike for the fact that he's gone onto the new character who replaced him.

Mmmm I agree to a certain extent. Yes I was mad - and am still mad - about losing Carson so it was probably going to be tougher for his replacement to impress me. Tougher but not impossible. I felt very similarly about Weir and Carter yet I've ended up really liking Carter (I didn't watch SG- so she was almost as new to me as Keller was) And given how unpopular this particular move was TPTB should have upped their game.

I can't stand Keller, not because she's not Carson but because of the weakness with Keller. People don't like her because she's not Carson is now being used as an excuse to explain away people who dislike Keller. Sorry. I would feel exactly the same whether this character had been introduced with Carson there or not.

erb
January 20th, 2008, 02:00 PM
Fair enough. I think, though, that if she came in and just started doing crazy doctor stuff from day one, it would have been a difficult sell to the general audience.

They should have made her an doctor who just transfered from a M*A*S*H in Iraq or something like that. That would have nipped the experience thing in the bud.

What they should have done if they had to have such a young doctor was to work with that instead of forcing her into a position calling for an older person. Why couldn't she have just been a brilliant young doctor doing a residency in Atlantis? Why the need to make her CMO?

Doctors (and other characters as well) tend toward the unrealistic in scifi since they many times seem experts in many fields. I am willing to bend, but Keller pushes me to breaking. Sorry.

We were told the "best and the brightest" were chosen for Atlantis. So I am supposed to believe Keller is more suited for CMO than all these other highly qualified, experienced candidates. Umm.....NO. It makes no sense she would be put in charge.

Skydiver
January 20th, 2008, 02:18 PM
Let's remember folks that this is a discussion about an element of hte SHOW. Let's keep it non-personal. Keep your comments centered around your opinions and not put those opinions forth as fact.

Keep it friendly please

Jumper_One
January 20th, 2008, 02:30 PM
We were told the "best and the brightest" were chosen for Atlantis. So I am supposed to believe Keller is more suited for CMO than all these other highly qualified, experienced candidates. Umm.....NO. It makes no sense she would be put in charge.

that sentence was used in 'Rising' though, it's been four years so I'm not sure it still applies. Atlantis is like any other military outpost, granted it's more important but still just another base

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 02:33 PM
that sentence was used in 'Rising' though, it's been four years so I'm not sure it still applies. Atlantis is like any other military outpost, granted it's more important but still just another base
Still, I don't think Keller's even among the top tier of Earth doctors. She's probably got a lot of potential but you don't just throw greenhorn potentials into challenging situations where one mistake could cost countless lives and hope it works out.

You nurture said potential and hope it grows and then you use it.

Jumper_One
January 20th, 2008, 02:38 PM
Still, I don't think Keller's even among the top tier of Earth doctors. She's probably got a lot of potential but you don't just throw greenhorn potentials into challenging situations where one mistake could cost countless lives and hope it works out.

You nurture said potential and hope it grows and then you use it.

IDK if she's amongst the top doctors Earth has to offer but apparently somebody thought she'd be able to do the job. btw who DID 'promote' her to CMO? generally I agree with you, she's got a lot of potential but lacks experience. however I do like the character and hope we'll get more insights into her past in future eps

Agent_Dark
January 20th, 2008, 02:38 PM
you know what happens when you take experienced people off the line and throw them into a highly classified role? People get suspicious. They ask questions. Highly respected and experienced people don't just fall off the radar. It's hard to hide things like that.

On the other hand, unknowns and newbs are perfect. No-one knows them or they haven't had a chance to know them. So when they head off to another galaxy, no-one gets suss and asks around to find out where they are.

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 02:51 PM
you know what happens when you take experienced people off the line and throw them into a highly classified role? People get suspicious. They ask questions. Highly respected and experienced people don't just fall off the radar. It's hard to hide things like that.

On the other hand, unknowns and newbs are perfect. No-one knows them or they haven't had a chance to know them. So when they head off to another galaxy, no-one gets suss and asks around to find out where they are.
As opposed to Colonel Samantha Carter, who even appeared on TV last year showing off a new breakthrough in weapon's technology? Or world-famous diplomat and mediator Doctor Elizabeth Weir?

Also, in "Rising", Elizabeth said they were among Earth's best and brightest, not "people who were bright but aren't famous". A lot of scientists, doctors and whatevers lead secluded lives. They don't appear in the mass media or go to lectures a lot, yet they can still be at the top of their fields.

Also, a trip to Atlantis is no longer a one-way trip. Heck, they apparently have lots of scheduled off-time and I bet some of it is spent back on Earth.

Also, do you really think Keller is an uknown n00b? She's a child prodigy who skipped 3 grades and went to medical school at age 15 (or she graduated high school at 15, possibly both, I can't remember). She's probably at least a little bit famous in the medical community.

Agent_Dark
January 20th, 2008, 03:07 PM
As opposed to Colonel Samantha Carter, who even appeared on TV last year showing off a new breakthrough in weapon's technology? Or world-famous diplomat and mediator Doctor Elizabeth Weir?
Carter was an unknown when she started in the stargate program. Her cover was already established, long before she started appearing on anything public.
I always got the impression that Weir was known, but she was more of a "15 minute wonder". Not taking anything away from what she did, but why wasn't moving up in the world and already holding important jobs? There was no mention of anything else that she would have had to give away and she seemed to jump fairly hard on the stargate program before she even knew what it was about. That too is a good cover for a highly classified project. Someone who was known, but has faded into relative obscurity making it easy for a cover to be invented.


Also, in "Rising", Elizabeth said they were among Earth's best and brightest, not "people who were bright but aren't famous". A lot of scientists, doctors and whatevers lead secluded lives. They don't appear in the mass media or go to lectures a lot, yet they can still be at the top of their fields.
If they are at the top of their fields, then are they are well known amongst their respective communities. That's why you can't really recruit them for a mission like Atlantis. Otherwise, you'd have every single top scientist in the world working for their respective governments wouldn't you. Plus, do you think the Government will pay anywhere near as much as they earn privately? Of course not. There's also the issue of confidentiality. Science by its nature is an open discussion - people come up with ideas and experimentations and other people take those and put their own ideas into it. You cant do that in a classified environment, because the things you are working on can't be discussed. I wouldn't doubt that alot of top scientists are aware of that, and avoid working for the government for precisely that reason. Also the fact that they don't have that much control over their projects.


Also, a trip to Atlantis is no longer a one-way trip. Heck, they apparently have lots of scheduled off-time and I bet some of it is spent back on Earth.
The Stargate would not be trivialised like that on Atlantis. For one, it uses up bulk power to establish an connection back to Earth (and vice versa) and ZPM power definitely would not be thrown away like that. If it's used in that way, then it will be used for something that is for the Mission itself. Secondly it has far more important uses - ie sending teams on missions and keeping it open in case of emergencies.

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 03:15 PM
Carter was an unknown when she started in the stargate program. Her cover was already established, long before she started appearing on anything public.
I always got the impression that Weir was known, but she was more of a "15 minute wonder". Not taking anything away from what she did, but why wasn't moving up in the world and already holding important jobs? There was no mention of anything else that she would have had to give away and she seemed to jump fairly hard on the stargate program before she even knew what it was about. That too is a good cover for a highly classified project. Someone who was known, but has faded into relative obscurity making it easy for a cover to be invented.
You skillfully sidestepped the fact that Keller should be relatively well-known in her field for being a child prodigy.


If they are at the top of their fields, then are they are well known amongst their respective communities. That's why you can't really recruit them for a mission like Atlantis. Otherwise, you'd have every single top scientist in the world working for their respective governments wouldn't you. Plus, do you think the Government will pay anywhere near as much as they earn privately? Of course not. There's also the issue of confidentiality. Science by its nature is an open discussion - people come up with ideas and experimentations and other people take those and put their own ideas into it. You cant do that in a classified environment, because the things you are working on can't be discussed. I wouldn't doubt that alot of top scientists are aware of that, and avoid working for the government for precisely that reason. Also the fact that they don't have that much control over their projects.
You don't only need the cream of the crop but also the cream of the crop who are willing to do what they do without public recognition for a chance to go to Atlantis. And who says the American government can't pay the CMO of Atlantis at least as much as they're getting paid for whatever medical job they're currently holding?


The Stargate would not be trivialised like that on Atlantis. For one, it uses up bulk power to establish an connection back to Earth (and vice versa) and ZPM power definitely would not be thrown away like that. If it's used in that way, then it will be used for something that is for the Mission itself. Secondly it has far more important uses - ie sending teams on missions and keeping it open in case of emergencies.
"The McKay-Carter Intergalactic Gate Bridge". You no longer need the ZPM to dial Earth from Atlantis. It's slightly slower but it costs only a small fraction of a direct dial.

magie
January 20th, 2008, 03:20 PM
What do critics think about Keller's characters ? or journalists, I don't know. I know that for me, Keller is a crossover between Lana Lang and Wesley Crusher, so I would like to know how people in the show business see this character.

Agent_Dark
January 20th, 2008, 03:24 PM
You skillfully sidestepped the fact that Keller should be relatively well-known in her field for being a child prodigy.
But who knows her? By her own admission, she didn't socialise much. You've all made it quite clear that she wouldn't have much experience which means that she hasn't worked much at all in the medical field (therefore her name is not known). Her University professors probably know her, but they know a lot of people and they aren't in the medical profession anyway. She's young and she's relatively unknown, which means she's perfect for a top secret job.


You don't only need the cream of the crop but also the cream of the crop who are willing to do what they do without public recognition for a chance to go to Atlantis. And who says the American government can't pay the CMO of Atlantis at least as much as they're getting paid for whatever medical job they're currently holding?
It's the government. If you're any good at what you do, you will earn much more money privately than working for the government. That's a fact. Anyone of the experience you're talking about would be taking a significant paycut to take a job on Atlantis.


"The McKay-Carter Intergalactic Gate Bridge". You no longer need the ZPM to dial Earth from Atlantis. It's slightly slower but it costs only a small fraction of a direct dial.
But you're also tying up another vital link between Earth and Atlantis. You know, people who serve on a Navy ship are only a short plane ride from the beach. Surely they can just jump on a helicopter and head off for some fun? Or maybe take a seat on the COD if they're on a carrier? Hell F-14 Tomcats are two seaters and they're fast. Back home in time for dinner.

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 03:28 PM
But who knows her? By her own admission, she didn't socialise much. You've all made it quite clear that she wouldn't have much experience which means that she hasn't worked much at all in the medical field (therefore her name is not known). Her University professors probably know her, but they know a lot of people and they aren't in the medical profession anyway. She's young and she's relatively unknown, which means she's perfect for a top secret job.
And who would know a top medical professional from X town? It's not like medical doctors become so world famous people would become suspicious if one disappeared to do "classified work". Or they could just get one who's really good but not famous. Carson and Janet were good at their jobs but not famous AFAWK. Being eligible to be a CMO does not mean you have to be famous world-wide.

Also, Jennifer should be at least as famous as any qualified CMO they can pull off a high profile ER for graduating from medical school at an exceptionally young age. The papers would probably have had interviews with her or whatever, people love it when child prodigies make it young. 15 minuets of fame? More than a lot of very qualified doctors good enough to be CMO of Atlantis get.


It's the government. If you're any good at what you do, you will earn much more money privately than working for the government. That's a fact. Anyone of the experience you're talking about would be taking a significant paycut to take a job on Atlantis.
A lot of people would take the job because of its importance and for what they would be contributing for humanity. Not everyone would, but a lot of people would.


But you're also tying up another vital link between Earth and Atlantis. You know, people who serve on a Navy ship are only a short plane ride from the beach. Surely they can just jump on a helicopter and head off for some fun? Or maybe take a seat on the COD if they're on a carrier? Hell F-14 Tomcats are two seaters and they're fast. Back home in time for dinner.
I'm not saying everyone is going to gate off to Earth willy nilly. But it's not like it's impossible to have the staff take short vacations on Earth once in while (collectively, gating off and back together).

Actionhank
January 20th, 2008, 03:36 PM
...and the worst thing to ever happen to her was to miss some parties. Give me a break.
Boy, I should've skipped some grades rather than party too much. :D

ToasterOnFire
January 20th, 2008, 03:48 PM
Uh most nerosurgeons are 10X her age so that proves her skills are very good.
Most neurosurgeons are 250-300 years old? :D


What they should have done if they had to have such a young doctor was to work with that instead of forcing her into a position calling for an older person. Why couldn't she have just been a brilliant young doctor doing a residency in Atlantis? Why the need to make her CMO?
Yeah, I thought that would have been better too. Much like Mitchell - he lacked any gate experience which makes one wonder why he got to be in charge of the highest ranking SG team. There's no reason why TPTB have to automatically shove new characters into high ranking positions, especially if they're going to point out their lack of experience.

Avenger
January 20th, 2008, 04:15 PM
Mitchell may not have had any gate experience, but he did command a squadron of 302s, so he was part of the SG program and spent time on one of the 304s doing various missions. It wasn't a huge stretch.

Agent_Dark
January 20th, 2008, 04:36 PM
And who would know a top medical professional from X town? It's not like medical doctors become so world famous people would become suspicious if one disappeared to do "classified work". Or they could just get one who's really good but not famous. Carson and Janet were good at their jobs but not famous AFAWK. Being eligible to be a CMO does not mean you have to be famous world-wide.
People who work in high skilled positions tend to make acquaintances with their colleges. Those acquaintances can get suspicious if their colleges suddenly drop of the radar. They can start ask questions. Other people hear those questions and start wondering. Then a reporter, or an intelligence officer hears about. They start probing. That's how a leak can start.


Also, Jennifer should be at least as famous as any qualified CMO they can pull off a high profile ER for graduating from medical school at an exceptionally young age. The papers would probably have had interviews with her or whatever, people love it when child prodigies make it young. 15 minuets of fame? More than a lot of very qualified doctors good enough to be CMO of Atlantis get.
Err no. you're not understanding. It's not about having your name in the papers - it's about having your name known among the profession. That comes from years of working with people, and working up a network of acquaintances. Joe Blogg who saw an article in the paper about some young upstart won't care what's she's doing. Dr Jones who worked with Dr Smith at John Hopkins for a couple years might wonder what his old friend is up to, where he's working now and what he's been doing. Imagine his surprise when he finds that Dr Smith has 'dropped off the radar' - that's not like him. He was hell into his work.


A lot of people would take the job because of its importance and for what they would be contributing for humanity. Not everyone would, but a lot of people would.
sure... but what they are already doing is just as important isn't it? Why do they want to work on bombs or weapons or some nonsense that the government/military is always up to. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll stick with what I'm doing.

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 04:46 PM
People who work in high skilled positions tend to make acquaintances with their colleges. Those acquaintances can get suspicious if their colleges suddenly drop of the radar. They can start ask questions. Other people hear those questions and start wondering. Then a reporter, or an intelligence officer hears about. They start probing. That's how a leak can start. Err no. you're not understanding. It's not about having your name in the papers - it's about having your name known among the profession. That comes from years of working with people, and working up a network of acquaintances. Joe Blogg who saw an article in the paper about some young upstart won't care what's she's doing. Dr Jones who worked with Dr Smith at John Hopkins for a couple years might wonder what his old friend is up to, where he's working now and what he's been doing. Imagine his surprise when he finds that Dr Smith has 'dropped off the radar' - that's not like him. He was hell into his work.
And they wouldn't be satisfied with occasional visit from the doctors from Atlantis (they have scheduled breaks)? Or explanations like "They're doing classified work"? And reports flock to "Random doctor is doing classified work with the government" stories since when now?

And you really think none of the people involved with the Atlantis program did any networking or became well-known with their colleagues?


sure... but what they are already doing is just as important isn't it? Why do they want to work on bombs or weapons or some nonsense that the government/military is always up to. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll stick with what I'm doing.
Since when do the medical doctors on Atlantis ever work on bombs or weapons (except Carson with that retro-virus)? Let's see... they can choose to save the lives of random people (or some famous somes) or go to Atlantis where people are risking their lives daily to defeat evil Space Vampires. Not only would they be saving important lives, said lives would go on to do very important work.

Joe Schmoopie at John's Hopkins can save good people all day but it's not like it'd be much more important than the work they can do on Atlantis.

Agent_Dark
January 20th, 2008, 05:00 PM
And they wouldn't be satisfied with occasional visit from the doctors from Atlantis (they have scheduled breaks)? Or explanations like "They're doing classified work"? And reports flock to "Random doctor is doing classified work with the government" stories since when now?

And you really think none of the people involved with the Atlantis program did any networking or became well-known with their colleagues?
It doesn't take much to get an educated, intelligent person asking questions. And if they're asking questions, you've got a security problem. Prevention is always better than cure, and in the case of a highly classified project there quite often is no cure.


Since when do the medical doctors on Atlantis ever work on bombs or weapons (except Carson with that retro-virus)? Let's see... they can choose to save the lives of random people (or some famous somes) or go to Atlantis where people are risking their lives daily to defeat evil Space Vampires. Not only would they be saving important lives, said lives would go on to do very important work.

Joe Schmoopie at John's Hopkins can save good people all day but it's not like it'd be much more important than the work they can do on Atlantis.
So... saving someone's life on Earth is less important than saving someone's life on Atlantis? Try arguing that to a medical doctor. And remember, you can't tell them about the project until they're cleared for it and they can't be cleared for it until they decide they want in. It's essentially a blind contract.
And how do you even justify top medical doctors working on a highly classified project? You really can't. Which means the fact that they're working on a highly classified project is classified itself. And that raises suspicions if people start asking around.

Avenger
January 20th, 2008, 05:08 PM
That is a good point. I don't know how many people would be willing to sign an agreement to go do top secret job without being told anything about it before hand. People who are established in their careers working at hospitals might not being as willing to take the job.

Detox
January 21st, 2008, 01:49 AM
The only difference between Carson and Keller medical wise is that Carson also did a lot of research, and was more of a scientist than Keller.

<snip>

Shan Bruce Lee
January 21st, 2008, 02:17 AM
Most neurosurgeons are 250-300 years old? :D

Duh... everybody knows that - you need to get with the program.:vortex04:

Skydiver
January 21st, 2008, 07:41 AM
guys, again, let's NOT make this personal. Debate the TOPIC, not each other

FallenAngelII
January 21st, 2008, 09:13 AM
It doesn't take much to get an educated, intelligent person asking questions. And if they're asking questions, you've got a security problem. Prevention is always better than cure, and in the case of a highly classified project there quite often is no cure.
You have a security problem because Random Doctor #21 is wondering where the hell their colleague disappeared to? Why would that be a problem? For one thing, you could make it look like they died in an accident and then, when their employment was terminated for whatever reason bring them back claiming they had spent years in the witness protection program.

But even if you didn't and Random Doctor #21 started asking questions, how the Hell would that cause problems? Unless the government agents were cataclysmical imbeciles, there would be trail to lead back to the government. And especially not the Stargate program. How the heck is a reporter or anyone going to be able to discover that the doctor's been whisked away to the Pegasus galaxy based on "Well, they were a great medical doctor and then they disappeared"?

You've got someone asking questions but that happens every day.


So... saving someone's life on Earth is less important than saving someone's life on Atlantis? Try arguing that to a medical doctor. And remember, you can't tell them about the project until they're cleared for it and they can't be cleared for it until they decide they want in. It's essentially a blind contract.
And how do you even justify top medical doctors working on a highly classified project? You really can't. Which means the fact that they're working on a highly classified project is classified itself. And that raises suspicions if people start asking around.
I'm not saying it's less important. I'm saying "It's not like it's unimportant work". Of course, a life is supposed to be worth as much as the next but a lot of people would consider being a part of the Stargate program something of extreme importance (at least 'til the recent defeats of the Ori and the Asurans... now all we've got left is the Wraith threat).

And you know what, that's a pretty lousy excuse. "We're too lazy to go out and look for someone qualified to do this job so we'll just take an unqualified greenhorn and hope she doesn't get us all killed".

Avenger
January 21st, 2008, 12:56 PM
You have a security problem because Random Doctor #21 is wondering where the hell their colleague disappeared to? Why would that be a problem? For one thing, you could make it look like they died in an accident and then, when their employment was terminated for whatever reason bring them back claiming they had spent years in the witness protection program.


Faking someone's death is approaching absurdity. Off to do top secret research is more than adequate.

Agent_Dark
January 21st, 2008, 12:59 PM
You have a security problem because Random Doctor #21 is wondering where the hell their colleague disappeared to? Why would that be a problem? For one thing, you could make it look like they died in an accident and then, when their employment was terminated for whatever reason bring them back claiming they had spent years in the witness protection program.
Oh right, and I'm sure the family would appreciate being told that their husband/mother/son/daughter was killed.


But even if you didn't and Random Doctor #21 started asking questions, how the Hell would that cause problems? Unless the government agents were cataclysmical imbeciles, there would be trail to lead back to the government. And especially not the Stargate program. How the heck is a reporter or anyone going to be able to discover that the doctor's been whisked away to the Pegasus galaxy based on "Well, they were a great medical doctor and then they disappeared"?
You don't really understand security issues do you? The best way to keep something secret is to avoid anything that could get people asking questions in the first place. One thing leads to something, someone else overhears that and asks their own questions and before long someone has pieced together enough information that they can start making some quite good guesses at what's going on. Every security officers nightmare is for one of the 'good guys', who's not in on the secret, to have pieced together enough information from their sources to figure out what's going on. If one of the good guys can do it, you can bet other people can too (namely, the media or foreign intelligence services. Both are undesirable.).


And you know what, that's a pretty lousy excuse. "We're too lazy to go out and look for someone qualified to do this job so we'll just take an unqualified greenhorn and hope she doesn't get us all killed".
Come back to the discussion when you stop distorting canon to fit your arguments. There is nothing in canon to suggest that Keller is unqualified. And if there was, then you should be raging at Beckett for accepting her onto his staff and Weir for putting her in charge.

Orion's Star
January 21st, 2008, 03:54 PM
Dude, guys, seriously. All this talk about covering up the disappearance of a famous scientist is just dragging on. The SG Program suffers countless numbers of casualties every year. If they can cover up all these dead and wounded soldiers, not to mention civilian scientists (often when there is not even a body afterwards to ship home), then the government can successfully disappear a famous doctor or scientist every once in a while.

It's not realistic, it never has been, and arguing that the SG Program is more likely to take an inexperienced, young, unknown scientist simply because fewer people would notice them missing seems kind of ridiculous.

Avenger
January 21st, 2008, 05:26 PM
The military will make something up if someone (special forces) on a top secret mission is KIA.

Agent_Dark
January 21st, 2008, 05:27 PM
If they can cover up all these dead and wounded soldiers
rather easy to do I would imagine, given the number of conflicts around the world that the US is involved in.

It's not realistic, it never has been
shot yourself in the foot there - if it's not realistic, why do you care about the age or potential experience of a doctor?

FallenAngelII
January 22nd, 2008, 01:53 AM
Come back to the discussion when you stop distorting canon to fit your arguments. There is nothing in canon to suggest that Keller is unqualified. And if there was, then you should be raging at Beckett for accepting her onto his staff and Weir for putting her in charge.
You see, I've never said she' unqualified for being a doctor. I said she's unqualified for being CMO. Unless the writers are gonna claim she's really 35-40-ish, she's too young to have the experience and skill needed for the job (but not to be a good doctor).

Carson hired her as a doctor, not his replacement.


rather easy to do I would imagine, given the number of conflicts around the world that the US is involved in.
And the good doctors and scientists that have fallen? How come no one's asked about any of them? Or were they all "uknown n00bs"?

And what happened to people "asking questions"? As long as the person in question isn't dead or has been pronounced dead, shouldn't there be people asking questions about the hundreds of people on Atlantis, soldier or not? Shouldn't foreign intelligence bureaus be on our tail on it? Shouldn't security be failing all over the place because we all know that when someone asks "Hey, where'd my friend go", Stargate Program information will automatically leak.

Orion's Star
January 22nd, 2008, 02:35 AM
rather easy to do I would imagine, given the number of conflicts around the world that the US is involved in.

Ummm...the US would have to be in a full scale war, like at least the size of Vietnam, to cover up the number of people who have died on either show. Even then, I really doubt that they could justify all these deaths as "training accidents" or "covert missions" to a significant degree that people wouldn't ask questions. This doesn't even get into the countless civilians who have died (as FallenAngelII also alluded to). Wouldn't it seem very suspicious if all these civvies were getting themselves killed in "conflicts"? Like nobody would wonder why they were there in the first place?

For Pete's sake, Anubis's fleet supposedly destroyed a carrier battle group in Lost City. Do you have any idea how unbelievable it is to think nobody would notice the sudden disappearance or destruction of a freaking aircraft carrier? Let alone a battle group?



shot yourself in the foot there - if it's not realistic, why do you care about the age or potential experience of a doctor?

Uh, no. I never made any comment in this thread about the realistic nature of Keller being the CMO (or any other character/person). I was simply disagreeing with your assertion that a younger, more inexperienced doctor would be better for the SG program because they'd be less likely to be missed. That doesn't even seem to track logically, especially considering all the other insane stuff that has taken place on the show and nobody has ever seemed to notice.

Mitchell82
January 22nd, 2008, 01:58 PM
Most neurosurgeons are 250-300 years old? :D
Ok so I exagerated a bit.;)



Yeah, I thought that would have been better too. Much like Mitchell - he lacked any gate experience which makes one wonder why he got to be in charge of the highest ranking SG team. There's no reason why TPTB have to automatically shove new characters into high ranking positions, especially if they're going to point out their lack of experience.
Ok I'm going to use your point to make mine. Mitchell lacked gate experience but so does every other soldier that is selected for the program. He earned the postition on SG-1. Keller had medical experience but was not ready for the responsibilty as CMO. She proved herself however just like Mitchell did.

Erised
January 22nd, 2008, 07:14 PM
Well now you have your answer.........She's young for a doctor because she skipped 3 grades!!!!!

She is still too young to be a neurosurgeon who has proven herself enough to be the best choice OF ALL DOCTORS to go to another galaxy.

and she whines

Agent_Dark
January 22nd, 2008, 08:33 PM
She is still too young to be a neurosurgeon who has proven herself enough to be the best choice OF ALL DOCTORS to go to another galaxy.

and she whines

so blame weir for picking her

Mitchell82
January 22nd, 2008, 09:44 PM
She is still too young to be a neurosurgeon who has proven herself enough to be the best choice OF ALL DOCTORS to go to another galaxy.

and she whines

I don't care if she is young, as you just said she has proven herself. So I don't see the issue.

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2008, 12:13 AM
Ok I'm going to use your point to make mine. Mitchell lacked gate experience but so does every other soldier that is selected for the program. He earned the postition on SG-1. Keller had medical experience but was not ready for the responsibilty as CMO. She proved herself however just like Mitchell did.
I'm still not seeing any of this proof. Heck, she seems a bit scatterbrained. In "Quarantine", she didn't even think of putting on a hazmat despite genuinely believing a real outbreak to have occured. Yeah, what are they gonna do when their CMO gets sick from a careless mistake like that?

Anyway, you made a few points on how she's "proven herself to be a capable CMO" earlier (among other arguments, you put forth her ability to, um, scan people and discover cancer with superior Ancient technology...). I replied to that post... you haven't replied yourself.

So are you unable to counter-argue my counter-arguments or did you find them too inane to even waste breath on? Because I personally don't see how she's redeemed herself (you even put forth her actions in "Quarantine" as proof of how she's proven herself worthy of being CMO of Atlantis.

Excuse me, I watched the episode yesterday. And I don't see her doing anything but whine, stitch up Ronon (wow, what skillful CMO-worthy stitching!) and fail to do the first thing doctors should do in case of an outbreak; put on a hazmat suit. Well, she did come up with that they could use the oxygen tanks as improvised explosives. I guess that's CMO-worthy. If anything that episode showed how incredibly scatter-brained and green she is. Not putting on a hazmat when she and Ronon are among the only ones having them available (besides possible people in labs with them) and with her being CMO (if the doctors get sick, there'll be no one to treat the sick)... she was probably too busy flirting with Ronon to think of such trivial things.


so blame weir for picking her
You see, you say that as if I wouldn't blame Elizabeth. I liked Elizabeth, I liked her a lot, lot, lot, lot more that Sam. However, I'm perfectly capable of recognizing that unlike Sam, Elizabeth actually, you know, makes mistakes, like most humans do.

Appointing Keller CMO? Big mistake. Making it a permanent decision (I can't remember if she or Sam or some other big-wig did it), though? Bigger.

Erised
January 23rd, 2008, 04:39 AM
TPTB picked her, not Elizabeth! :p

magie
January 23rd, 2008, 05:04 AM
When I watch Stargate Atlantis, all the actors chosen to play in this series, just seem to fit. I am not thinking "what the hell is he/she doing here?". That was true until Keller. It's just not working for me. I think TPTB wanted a cute female doctor. I watched Stargate, who could forget the switch Frasier/Lam ? Bis repetita in SA.

They just don't learn from their past mistakes, do they, when it comes to doctors on Stargate shows.

GateLadyM
January 23rd, 2008, 06:39 AM
I don't see Keller as any type of competent doctor. In Adrift she operated on Weir's brain, then said there was nothing she could do. In Tabula Rasa, she studied everyone getting sick and said there was nothing she could do. In The Seer, the guy was sick and Keller said. . .there was nothing she could do.

Is there ANYTHING she can do (other than whine and cry about not getting to go to parties)?

jelgate
January 23rd, 2008, 06:45 AM
Yeah, all doctors know exactally what to do and can save their patients. Its not like doctors have research dieases to find cures:rolleyes:

ToasterOnFire
January 23rd, 2008, 07:46 AM
Mitchell lacked gate experience but so does every other soldier that is selected for the program. He earned the postition on SG-1.
I find it highly unlikely that a soldier who's never seen the gate before would be certified to lead the highest ranking SG1 team. Realistically, he'd serve first on other SG teams offworld, then move up to leading one of them, then take command of SG1. The sort of jump in command we saw would never happen in the military.

Likewise, Keller would never be certified to head the medical team on Atlantis, a position that requires a great deal of medical experience (that she doesn't have due to her young age) and ability to handle yourself offworld (that doesn't seem apparent after 'Missing'). If she did get into the Atlantis program she would need to spend years there getting more hands-on training before anyone would even consider her as CMO, same as Mitchell and SG1.


Is there ANYTHING she can do (other than whine and cry about not getting to go to parties)?
Stitches? ;)

ciannwn
January 23rd, 2008, 08:30 AM
The problem I have with Keller is due to the way she's being presented. I could accept one or two things if that was all there was.

1: She's a young prodigy who somehow has enough experience in her job to be considered CMO material. Well, there's always suspension of disbelief because this is sci-fi after all and we're supposed to believe as many as six impossible things before breakfast where the Stargate universe is concerned.

2: Her brief stay at a summer camp didn't prepare her for the events in 'Missing'. Well, it wouldn't.

3: She's got an inner ear problem. Well, OK - Rodney's allergic to citrus.

What really puts me off the character is that TPTB are laying it on with a trowel as far as I'm concerned. She's scared, she sprains her ankle, she has an inner ear problem which causes her to slip on the bridge, she can't face the thought of eating unappetising looking food, she had no social life and missed out on parties, she feels like she's never belonged, she didn't feel up to the task of remaining as CMO, she cries, when she's scared she whines in the Rodney/Beckett tradition etc. etc. etc. To crown it all, she's also the victim of 'let's give the viewers as much background information as we possibly can here' - it gives me the impression that she likes to tell people her life history at the slightest opportunity whether they're interested or not. If Keller was a 'toned down' version of the current character then yes, I'd have liked her even though I'm a Beckett fan.

Then there's Ronon apparently falling for her. I wouldn't mind if his lost love, Melena, had followed an occupation other than nurse (or possibly doctor because we can't be 100% certain about Satedan hospital staff uniforms). I'm now left wondering if Ronon is interested in Keller as a person in her own right or whether he just has a thing about women in the medical profession.

Chrysalis
January 23rd, 2008, 09:50 AM
I don't care if she is young, as you just said she has proven herself. So I don't see the issue.

Uh, that's NOT what Erised said.

Here's her quote, with the bold bit the way anyone else who read it would have understood it

"She is still too young to be a neurosurgeon who has proven herself enough to be the best choice OF ALL DOCTORS to go to another galaxy.

and she whines"


She very clearly said that she's too young to have proven herself. How you got that she HAS proven herself out of that is beyond me.

Ebeneezer_Goode
January 23rd, 2008, 09:56 AM
Weir seemed confident she was the best person for the job, even though Keller herself didn't.

VSS
January 23rd, 2008, 10:00 AM
It's possible for her to skip only 3 grades. If she skipped 3 grades, she would have graduated high school at 15. Then, she goes for a pre-med program, which is about 2 to 3 years and gives her a non-Honours Bachelor's degree (Queen's university offers something like that in Canada; it's also possible to get a full Honours Bachelor's degree in science in 3 years - the curriculum isn't that hard). Medical school is 4 years and the residency is 5 to 8 years. That would make her 26 to 30 years old, which isn't that much older than Jewel Staite (25). It's pushing it into the realm of "unlikely" but not impossible.

But- she skipped only 3 grades. I think she's American and pre-med programs are 4 years, not 2-3, just because of the timing of the tests and applications, not just the material- but you're giving her another 2 so there's five. Residency 8-10 minimum for a trauma/neuro surgeon, so you've given her another three or five, now we're up to eight. Then there's board certification (another 2 years) now we're up to ten or twelve, just like I said. She has to get ten extra years- and that doesn't even count experience, which she apparently lacks. Sure, she can skip 3 years, but she can't skip years at every level- K-12, college, residency, boards. Can't be done.

erb
January 23rd, 2008, 10:02 AM
Weir seemed confident she was the best person for the job, even though Keller herself didn't.

Because it was "in the script".

Ebeneezer_Goode
January 23rd, 2008, 10:05 AM
Because it was "in the script".

Same with everything she does/says.. :rolleyes:

erb
January 23rd, 2008, 10:16 AM
Same with everything she does/says.. :rolleyes:

Of course.

My point was I don't find it remotely credible for her to have been chosen CMO. The only explanation is "it's in the script".

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2008, 10:42 AM
I don't see Keller as any type of competent doctor. In Adrift she operated on Weir's brain, then said there was nothing she could do. In Tabula Rasa, she studied everyone getting sick and said there was nothing she could do. In The Seer, the guy was sick and Keller said. . .there was nothing she could do.

Is there ANYTHING she can do (other than whine and cry about not getting to go to parties)?
You know, I didn't even think of that. At least Carson, Janet and Lam occasionally manage to save people :P.

FallenAngelII
January 23rd, 2008, 10:48 AM
Weir seemed confident she was the best person for the job, even though Keller herself didn't.
Well you see, I have never claimed that Sam Cart... I mean Elizabeth Weir was the perfect person who never makes any mistakes. Even my favourite characters occasionally make cataclysmic blunders.

Ebeneezer_Goode
January 23rd, 2008, 10:49 AM
Well you see, I have never claimed that Sam Cart... I mean Elizabeth Weir was the perfect person who never makes any mistakes. Even my favourite characters occasionally make cataclysmic blunders.

I never said you did.

Erised
January 23rd, 2008, 11:01 AM
She was chosen because she is (for some reason) considered hot to producers. I guess you have to be a guy to see that because I don't. They worked with her before. They probably had a plan to make her the doctor for awhile.
And I can't help but see wraith, not Keller... there are too many similarities, even in the whining.

Mitchell82
January 23rd, 2008, 11:43 AM
I'm still not seeing any of this proof. Heck, she seems a bit scatterbrained. In "Quarantine", she didn't even think of putting on a hazmat despite genuinely believing a real outbreak to have occured. Yeah, what are they gonna do when their CMO gets sick from a careless mistake like that?
I don't see it as a careless mistake. The lockdown protocols were broken. If I'm not mistaken only a certain part of the infirmary was open. Also we don't know if hazmat suits would have worked anyway with the broken lockdown. The infirmary was locked meaning the system thought the infirmary was also infected. So IMO that is not a mistake.


Anyway, you made a few points on how she's "proven herself to be a capable CMO" earlier (among other arguments, you put forth her ability to, um, scan people and discover cancer with superior Ancient technology...). I replied to that post... you haven't replied yourself.

So are you unable to counter-argue my counter-arguments or did you find them too inane to even waste breath on? Because I personally don't see how she's redeemed herself (you even put forth her actions in "Quarantine" as proof of how she's proven herself worthy of being CMO of Atlantis.
Sorry I missed your reply. If I recall I didn't point out she can use the diagnostic equipment. I pointed out she was very skilled simply by performing the complex surgery she did in Adrift. i don't see what she needs to redeem herself for. I'll grant you that she doesnt have the experience that Carson did however her competence in ADrift showed she was a skilled surgeon. Her abilities also shined in Doppleganger, Missing, and The seer. Personally in Quarantine despirte her age she showed great strength with how helpless she felt with an outbreak around her and nothing she could do. Doing what needed to be done to try and get to the paitents despite the fact it didn't work showed true strength IMO.


Excuse me, I watched the episode yesterday. And I don't see her doing anything but whine, stitch up Ronon (wow, what skillful CMO-worthy stitching!) and fail to do the first thing doctors should do in case of an outbreak; put on a hazmat suit. Well, she did come up with that they could use the oxygen tanks as improvised explosives. I guess that's CMO-worthy. If anything that episode showed how incredibly scatter-brained and green she is. Not putting on a hazmat when she and Ronon are among the only ones having them available (besides possible people in labs with them) and with her being CMO (if the doctors get sick, there'll be no one to treat the sick)... she was probably too busy flirting with Ronon to think of such trivial things.
I disagree.

Mitchell82
January 23rd, 2008, 11:47 AM
I find it highly unlikely that a soldier who's never seen the gate before would be certified to lead the highest ranking SG1 team. Realistically, he'd serve first on other SG teams offworld, then move up to leading one of them, then take command of SG1. The sort of jump in command we saw would never happen in the military.
Don't count on it. I've seen it happen. He was the best of the best which is why he was picked for that, but this is a discussion for another thread.


Likewise, Keller would never be certified to head the medical team on Atlantis, a position that requires a great deal of medical experience (that she doesn't have due to her young age) and ability to handle yourself offworld (that doesn't seem apparent after 'Missing'). If she did get into the Atlantis program she would need to spend years there getting more hands-on training before anyone would even consider her as CMO, same as Mitchell and SG1.
She was a highly qualified doctor but not enough experience to be a CMO which is not the position she was hired for things just happend. While she still is not as experienced as Carson she has shown her abilities IMO.

Agent_Dark
January 23rd, 2008, 01:09 PM
You see, you say that as if I wouldn't blame Elizabeth. I liked Elizabeth, I liked her a lot, lot, lot, lot more that Sam. However, I'm perfectly capable of recognizing that unlike Sam, Elizabeth actually, you know, makes mistakes, like most humans do.
maybe carter doesn't make noob mistakes cos she aint a noob. there's nothing to suggest that carter doesn't make mistakes, she just doesn't make noob ones. unlike a character who would apparently appoint an inexperienced doctor to the head doctor position. thats a noob mistake. who made that again?

EdenSG
January 23rd, 2008, 02:05 PM
I have read a lot of posts discussing Keller’s medical expertise to be CMO.
Here is something else to consider.
How much expertise does a CMO have to have?
What are the job requirements for CMO on Atlantis?
I doubt it is all medical experience based, but it also has a lot to do with organization, administration, and handling/organizing emergencies among other things.

As a nurse I have been in emergency situations with doctors who are experts and leaders in their field but have been clueless in how to organize and run an emergency situation. We have actually asked some doctors to leave because they were hindering more than helping. Sure they could perform complex, life saving surgeries and had 20+ years experience but in a crisis I would not want them within 10 feet of me. And from personnel experience, Keller handled the emergencies in “Adrift” quite well. Also, if you look at the CMO’s of many Hospitals’s, not all have long and distinguished, superlative medical experience backgrounds but often have offer attributes that qualify them. I am not saying whether all this qualifies Keller or not to be CMO of Atantis, just that other things may need to be considered other than just how much medical experience she has.

Promethius30
January 23rd, 2008, 02:23 PM
^ well put
i like keller


Uhm...her 'me me me' stuff?

Such as crying over her ankle in 'missing'

well if your saying does that apply to mackay i think he would probably react worse like in quarantine thinking he had an illness,i like them both and most non military people would not be too happy with a sprained ankle

Emme
January 23rd, 2008, 04:25 PM
What if Keller is so good sooo young is because of the memory manipulation device SG1 found in S9.


The air force is looking forward to training fighter pilots in just days. - Hank Landry???

In fact the woman who developed it said it could benefit Doctors by giving them the experience from many generations of Dr's before them. Just a random thought I'd throw into the mix. So it is possible she has had the necessary training and experience just not her own :)

Avenger
January 23rd, 2008, 08:51 PM
And it's pretty obvious that Keller's job is merely medicine. She's not heading up a medical research department because she's a medical doctor. Her job is to keep the people on Atlantis alive and well. She's the Chief Medical Officer, not a Chief of Medical Research.

VSS
January 23rd, 2008, 09:28 PM
I have read a lot of posts discussing Keller’s medical expertise to be CMO.
Here is something else to consider.
How much expertise does a CMO have to have?
What are the job requirements for CMO on Atlantis?
I doubt it is all medical experience based, but it also has a lot to do with organization, administration, and handling/organizing emergencies among other things.

As a nurse I have been in emergency situations with doctors who are experts and leaders in their field but have been clueless in how to organize and run an emergency situation. We have actually asked some doctors to leave because they were hindering more than helping. Sure they could perform complex, life saving surgeries and had 20+ years experience but in a crisis I would not want them within 10 feet of me. And from personnel experience, Keller handled the emergencies in “Adrift” quite well. Also, if you look at the CMO’s of many Hospitals’s, not all have long and distinguished, superlative medical experience backgrounds but often have offer attributes that qualify them. I am not saying whether all this qualifies Keller or not to be CMO of Atantis, just that other things may need to be considered other than just how much medical experience she has.

Agreed. She needs an MHA, too. Tack on another 2 years for that.;)

Avenger
January 23rd, 2008, 11:59 PM
She's not running a massive hospital, dealing with insurance companies or a board of directors, or trying to organize fund raisers or anything else that would be associated with running a full fledged hospital.

FallenAngelII
January 24th, 2008, 01:12 AM
I don't see it as a careless mistake. The lockdown protocols were broken. If I'm not mistaken only a certain part of the infirmary was open. Also we don't know if hazmat suits would have worked anyway with the broken lockdown. The infirmary was locked meaning the system thought the infirmary was also infected. So IMO that is not a mistake.
The infirmary was sealed off from the rest of the base. There were no additional doors sealing off parts of the infirmary, so the hazmat suits should've been readily available.

And it does not matter if the lockdown was broken. The radios were down, so no one could tell Jennifer that. And according to Jennifer's own admission, she herself believed that the lockdown was genuine. To in such a situation repeatedly say "We need to get the infirmary ready for the sick people" and then not put on a hazmat suit is just careless.

It does not matter if there wasn't a real outbreak this time. She should have put on a hazmat suit.


Sorry I missed your reply. If I recall I didn't point out she can use the diagnostic equipment. I pointed out she was very skilled simply by performing the complex surgery she did in Adrift.
One of the episodes you used as an example of how she's proven herself worthy of being CMO of Atlantis was "The Seer". And, really, what did she do in that episode besides scan the old man, discover he had a brain tumour and then say "There's nothing I can do"?


i don't see what she needs to redeem herself for.
It's not redemption, it's proving that she's worthy.


I'll grant you that she doesnt have the experience that Carson did however her competence in ADrift showed she was a skilled surgeon.
We've been over this. The fact that she's a skilled surgeon does not automatically mean that she's worthy of being CMO of Atlantis or there'd be millions of candidates (anyone who's a skilled surgeon) deemed "worthy". You can be a skilled doctor as much as you want but it does not mean you're automatically qualified for being CMO of even the tiniest hospital.


Her abilities also shined in Doppleganger, Missing, and The seer.
See, you completely ignored my reply to my previous post (citing "I didn't see it") and then reiterated the same (IMO inane) arguments.

Doppelganger: She did nothing special. She realized the creature killed in dreams... which is quite a feat after it had already killed Kate. I mean, what else could they blame, the food? Of course it was the creature. Doesn't take a Rodney McKay to figure that out. She did, however, on a fluke discover that the creature was susceptible to shock. But that doesn't show she's a good CMO. It just shows she's got a brain.
Missing: She whined, whined some more, whined even more and then did some surgery. Yeah, good job. Not a terrible job much she didn't really prove herself worthy of CMO here either. She proved she could whine a lot and do surgery in hostile situations.
The Seer: She scanned a guy with superior Atlantis medical technology and discovered he had cancer. I can do that.

See, you given us an example of something anyone can do and then examples of how she's a good doctor. How many times must I say this: Being a good doctor =/= being a good CMO.


Personally in Quarantine despirte her age she showed great strength with how helpless she felt with an outbreak around her and nothing she could do. Doing what needed to be done to try and get to the paitents despite the fact it didn't work showed true strength IMO.
She's a doctor. That's what all doctors automatically do. Prepare to treat the sick. What, you think your average doctor would just sit around twiddling their thumbs doing nothing? No, if they hear of an outbreak, they prepare to treat the sick. However, they would most definitely also put on a hazmat suit.


She was a highly qualified doctor but not enough experience to be a CMO which is not the position she was hired for things just happend. While she still is not as experienced as Carson she has shown her abilities IMO.
Her abilities as a doctor.



well if your saying does that apply to mackay i think he would probably react worse like in quarantine thinking he had an illness,i like them both and most non military people would not be too happy with a sprained ankle
But you see, Rodney isn't CMO of Atlantis. No one ever said he should be.

Ok, people. I've had to say this a good 10 times now. Being a good doctor, no matter how brilliant does not mean you're automatically qualified for being CMO, especially not of Atlantis. Sure, there aren't boards of directors or fundraisers to organize (which I doubt the CMO actually organize), but there are other added "quirks". You can be a good doctor 'til the cows come how. Does mean you're automatically a good (or even competent) CMO.

EdenSG
January 24th, 2008, 05:53 AM
The infirmary was sealed off from the rest of the base. There were no additional doors sealing off parts of the infirmary, so the hazmat suits should've been readily available.

And it does not matter if the lockdown was broken. The radios were down, so no one could tell Jennifer that. And according to Jennifer's own admission, she herself believed that the lockdown was genuine. To in such a situation repeatedly say "We need to get the infirmary ready for the sick people" and then not put on a hazmat suit is just careless.

It does not matter if there wasn't a real outbreak this time. She should have put on a hazmat suit.


Actually I do not think she would had access to the Hazmat suits. Again from actual experience (I am part of a Hospital committee that looks at emergency preparedness in case of mass injuries, deadly disease breakout and terrorist attack) you would not store hazmat suits in the treatment area. Why? If you had a person come to your infirmary or ED and you treated them and discovered they had a highly infectious deadly disease you would be considered "infected" and not supposed to leave until treated and cleared. Besides, since you are already considered infected you are designated to stay and treat the other victums. Having a Hazmt suit in the treatment area is useless, you can't have people come in to get ithe suit without becoming "infected" and you should not leave the area (even if you are infected and have the suit on).

Hazmat suits are best left in an area just adjacent to the treament area but not in the treament area. We actually have a couple of hazmat suits in our Hospital, they are kept near the ED, but not in the ED.

It would be rather bad proceedure for the hazmat suits to be where Keller was, which was the treatment area since she was stitching up Ronon's arm. When the doors shut she was likely sealed off from the suits. (Of course I wonder if anyone else had access to the suits or because it was a level 5 quarentine if the city would have allowed people thru even if they did have suits on? - but that is another discussion) Her comment to prepare for the possibility of massive incoming victums was quite appropriate - that would be her job given the circumstances she was facing.

FireCat
January 24th, 2008, 06:47 AM
Ok, people. I've had to say this a good 10 times now. Being a good doctor, no matter how brilliant does not mean you're automatically qualified for being CMO, especially not of Atlantis. Sure, there aren't boards of directors or fundraisers to organize (which I doubt the CMO actually organize), but there are other added "quirks". You can be a good doctor 'til the cows come how. Does mean you're automatically a good (or even competent) CMO.

Exactly. She skipped a few grades in school. So what? Atlantis is a high-tech, top secret research and military facility. Keller is NOT the only genius on staff! In fact, I would assume MOST of the doctors and scientists would have been tops in their fields, with MANY of them moving along quite rapidly in their educational years!

But, OMG, it is just so terrible that she missed PARTIES, and she is gonna whine every day until everyone knows what horrible teen angst years she had.

Ugh.

VSS
January 24th, 2008, 07:04 AM
She does CPR like she's squashing a bug. A little, itty, bitty bug.

jelgate
January 24th, 2008, 11:22 AM
Exactly. She skipped a few grades in school.So what??* Atlantis is a high-tech, top secret research and military facility. Keller is NOT the only genius on staff! In fact, I would assume MOST of the doctors and scientists would have been tops in their fields, with MANY of them moving along quite rapidly in their educational years!But, OMG, it is just so terrible that she missed PARTIES, and she is gonna whine every day until everyone knows what horrible teen angst years she had.?* Ugh.Its like a character suppose to have flaws :rolleyes:

Jeffala
January 24th, 2008, 11:26 AM
Let's bring this back to the core point that I think people are trying to get across: You can be a good doctor and be a bad administrator and/or manager.

She's proven that she's a good doctor, but what skills does she have in regard to managing a department and its personnel? What is her skill in regards to training and orientating new personnel as they arrive? Would she have the strength of character to stand up to, say, Rodney and tell him, "You're behaving irrationally because you've been exposed to XX and I'm relieving you of duty until it wears off." Would she have him confined to the brig if needed (since he could easily break out of his quarters)?

One thing that I'll add to this that makes me doubt her ability as CMO is this: When Teyla became pregnant, she didn't inform anyone. Not Teyla's immediate CO or the base commander. And this isn't a medical privacy issue, it's a fit for duty issue.

Emme
January 24th, 2008, 12:14 PM
I think that we can expect too much from our shows. When a medical situation arrives we expect it to be as complex as a medical drama. (which it isn't) When a comedy situation arrives we expect it to be as funny as a sit com (which it isn't, a sit com i mean) When the battles take place we expect starwars. It's a scifi show which has many different elements incorporated in to it. I think the show is wonderful. Part of this problem can be that when a medical situation crops up and it has it's plotholes or flaws or what ever you wanna call it. It reminds us IT ISN'T REAL :)
If complex medical is what you want watch a medical drama. If it's romance you want watch a rom com if it's scifi you want watch Atlantis. People say how a young medical officer isn't believable but a stargate which sends you to other planets is? Don't we watch Scifi for the unbelievable?

FoolishPleasure
January 24th, 2008, 01:45 PM
She's proven that she's a good doctor, . . .

She has?

Oh, my bad. She does know how to do stitches.

Jeffala
January 24th, 2008, 01:49 PM
She has?

Oh, my bad. She does know how to do stitches.

Well she was able to perform a craniectomy and not kill her patient. Can you? I can't.

Agent_Dark
January 24th, 2008, 01:50 PM
She has?

Oh, my bad. She does know how to do stitches.

yeah true, i manage complex brain injuries in my spare time. sometimes i do it with one hand tied behind my back, just to mix things up a little.

[amusingly bad german accent] ANUHZA SUCCESSFUL PROCEDURE![/amusingly bad german accent]

Promethius30
January 24th, 2008, 02:21 PM
I think that we can expect too much from our shows. When a medical situation arrives we expect it to be as complex as a medical drama. (which it isn't) When a comedy situation arrives we expect it to be as funny as a sit com (which it isn't, a sit com i mean) When the battles take place we expect starwars. It's a scifi show which has many different elements incorporated in to it. I think the show is wonderful. Part of this problem can be that when a medical situation crops up and it has it's plotholes or flaws or what ever you wanna call it. It reminds us IT ISN'T REAL :)
If complex medical is what you want watch a medical drama. If it's romance you want watch a rom com if it's scifi you want watch Atlantis. People say how a young medical officer isn't believable but a stargate which sends you to other planets is? Don't we watch Scifi for the unbelievable?

could not have put any better its not ER we are watching

Shan Bruce Lee
January 24th, 2008, 04:11 PM
Well she was able to perform a craniectomy and not kill her patient. Can you? I can't.

Yeah but only as a hobby:beckettanime04:

Avenger
January 24th, 2008, 06:44 PM
Ok, people. I've had to say this a good 10 times now. Being a good doctor, no matter how brilliant does not mean you're automatically qualified for being CMO, especially not of Atlantis. Sure, there aren't boards of directors or fundraisers to organize (which I doubt the CMO actually organize), but there are other added "quirks". You can be a good doctor 'til the cows come how. Does mean you're automatically a good (or even competent) CMO.

We don't actually know what the qualifications are for being the CMO, but given that Keller has the job, we can assume that she meets them.

jelgate
January 24th, 2008, 08:05 PM
We don't actually know what the qualifications are for being the CMO, but given that Keller has the job, we can assume that she meets them.We can not assume anything. The fans need to be told everything. Everything else is lazy writing. (end sarcasim)

Avenger
January 24th, 2008, 08:52 PM
But don't tell them everything because they want to figure some things out on their own.

PG15
January 24th, 2008, 09:57 PM
She does CPR like she's squashing a bug. A little, itty, bitty bug.

If you do it right, you can break somebody's ribs. Plus, that was all in Shep's head.

Avenger
January 25th, 2008, 12:13 AM
CPR is never shown on TV as it would be done in real life because CPR breaks ribs more often than it doesn't. There is no way to do it on a live person that looks realistic.

Mitchell82
January 25th, 2008, 07:16 AM
The infirmary was sealed off from the rest of the base. There were no additional doors sealing off parts of the infirmary, so the hazmat suits should've been readily available.

And it does not matter if the lockdown was broken. The radios were down, so no one could tell Jennifer that. And according to Jennifer's own admission, she herself believed that the lockdown was genuine. To in such a situation repeatedly say "We need to get the infirmary ready for the sick people" and then not put on a hazmat suit is just careless.

It does not matter if there wasn't a real outbreak this time. She should have put on a hazmat suit.
Ok let me try this another way. Yes logically it would make sense to do that however you do realise that sometimes you have to take a few liberties to tell a story right? One we don't know if the lockdown procedure would have recognised the suits, and second with no real outbreak the tory woul end there. No character development, nada. I guess I just undertand we are watching a fictional science fiction tv show not reality.



One of the episodes you used as an example of how she's proven herself worthy of being CMO of Atlantis was "The Seer". And, really, what did she do in that episode besides scan the old man, discover he had a brain tumour and then say "There's nothing I can do"?
Fair enough but what exactly do you expect from her? She didn't do much in this ep however it showed her compassion for human life and knack for dealing with terminal patients and famiies. She has proven to be a great doctor and so far a good administrator but she still is green hence she will grow as a character. I still fail to see your point unless you expect a completly perfect character at the start.



It's not redemption, it's proving that she's worthy.


We've been over this. The fact that she's a skilled surgeon does not automatically mean that she's worthy of being CMO of Atlantis or there'd be millions of candidates (anyone who's a skilled surgeon) deemed "worthy". You can be a skilled doctor as much as you want but it does not mean you're automatically qualified for being CMO of even the tiniest hospital.
True she still may lack that experience though so far she has done well.



See, you completely ignored my reply to my previous post (citing "I didn't see it") and then reiterated the same (IMO inane) arguments.
I'm through with you. I did not ignore you I missed the post so sue me. I am trying to debate you in a civil manner but apparently you refuse to do the same so I'm done.

FallenAngelII
January 25th, 2008, 11:44 AM
Actually I do not think she would had access to the Hazmat suits. Again from actual experience (I am part of a Hospital committee that looks at emergency preparedness in case of mass injuries, deadly disease breakout and terrorist attack) you would not store hazmat suits in the treatment area. Why? If you had a person come to your infirmary or ED and you treated them and discovered they had a highly infectious deadly disease you would be considered "infected" and not supposed to leave until treated and cleared. Besides, since you are already considered infected you are designated to stay and treat the other victums. Having a Hazmt suit in the treatment area is useless, you can't have people come in to get ithe suit without becoming "infected" and you should not leave the area (even if you are infected and have the suit on).

Hazmat suits are best left in an area just adjacent to the treament area but not in the treament area. We actually have a couple of hazmat suits in our Hospital, they are kept near the ED, but not in the ED.

It would be rather bad proceedure for the hazmat suits to be where Keller was, which was the treatment area since she was stitching up Ronon's arm. When the doors shut she was likely sealed off from the suits. (Of course I wonder if anyone else had access to the suits or because it was a level 5 quarentine if the city would have allowed people thru even if they did have suits on? - but that is another discussion) Her comment to prepare for the possibility of massive incoming victums was quite appropriate - that would be her job given the circumstances she was facing.
This is Atlantis. Rodney had just rewritten the quarantine protocols (which had worked very well on previous occasions as well) so that whenever someone infected stepped through the gate, the city would sense it and seal that person off.

So having hazmat suits in the infirmary would make a lot of sense since it'd be nigh impossible for someone to get there without the city detecting it first. Jennifer and her band of merry docs would have all the time in the world to put on the suits and prepare to treat the patient(s). To force them to first run off to another section to get the suits would waste valuable (not to mention illogical) time.

This isn't your run-of-the-mill base, this is Atlantis. Why store the hazmat suits far away from the doctors if they're the only ones who actually put on hazmat suits (besides possibly the highest ranking members of the expedition) in case of an outbreak? I mean, remember all the other outbreaks? Who were the first to don hazmat suits? That's right, Carson & his doctors.

And you know what hazmat suits do? Not only do they protect people from getting infected, they protect people from spreading said infections! So if Jennifer actually got infected, at least she'd be able to wander around treating people or administering tests without risk of infected non-infected people.


We don't actually know what the qualifications are for being the CMO, but given that Keller has the job, we can assume that she meets them.
Yes we do. It's the same as being CMO of any hospital + the stuff that Atlantis doesn't have + the stuff that Atlantis does have.

Emme
January 25th, 2008, 02:01 PM
Found this on the web, not sure how relavent it would be given Atlantis isn't real but feel free to read and rip it to shreds ;)


Spoilerd for size
Air Force Officer Job Descriptions & Qualifications

44AX - CHIEF, HOSPITAL/CLINIC SERVICES


Specialty Summary. Plans and administers medical services at base level medical treatment facilities (MTF), including maintenance of health standards, training, and use of personnel. Directs inpatient and outpatient care and services. Related DoD Occupational Group: 6A.

Duties and Responsibilities:

Administers medical service policies. Provides guidance for implementing comprehensive programs to continuously improve prevention and treatment of medical disease to ensure maximum personnel wartime readiness and combat capability. Determines personnel, materiel, and facility requirements. Administers operational policies for medical service programs.

Coordinates medical service programs. Coordinates health service and patient care with military and civilian medical treatment facilities. Participates in meetings of professional societies and clinics. Confers with commanders and staff members concerning establishing, manning, equipping, operating, and training for medical facilities, units, and personnel. Advises commanders on matters affecting health and welfare of personnel.

Monitors and directs medical service programs. Directs establishment and operation of inpatient and outpatient medical services. Manages assignment of medical officers and enlisted personnel to support medical facility operations. Manages education and training programs for medical officers. Disseminates professional information on new medical concepts, procedures, and techniques. Approves disengagement of patients for Civilian Health and Medical Program of the Uniformed Services (CHAMPUS). Responsible for management and oversight of professional programs to support medical treatment facility accreditation and inspection, including quality assurance and risk management, utilization management, and medical readiness.

Specialty Qualifications:

Knowledge. Fulfillment of education requirement satisfies this requirement.

Education. For entry into this specialty, it is mandatory to possess a doctor of medicine degree or a doctor of osteopathy degree from an approved school of medicine or osteopathy and completion of 1 year of graduate medical education acceptable to the Surgeon General, HQ USAF.

Training. None.

Experience. For award of AFSC 44A3, experience is mandatory in a position with significant responsibility for medical management, including clinical service or department level leadership; or an aggregate of related duties, including work in facility level quality assurance and risk management function or medical staff committees.

Other. None.

Specialty Shredouts:

None



Under the qualifications listed she would be qualified no? Or should I say could be as we don't know her medical background. i realise this is for military but as this is an airforce base ish it would be run by these standards. This supports what I have said many times in other threads about her being able to manage and run it. Without having to know how all the jobs her subordinates do are done. Any managers out there? Do you know how to do the job of everyone working under you?????? I know I don't and I managed a team of 20.
This is the link. (I copy and paste cause personally I hate having to click every 5 mins to read something) :)
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/afoffjobs/bl44ax.htm

Avenger
January 25th, 2008, 04:17 PM
Great post.

Emme
January 25th, 2008, 05:30 PM
Great post.

Why thank you kind avenger :)

FallenAngelII
January 26th, 2008, 03:13 AM
I kinda doubt that's all that's needed to be CMO at an USAF base... if so, then the US Air Force's got low standards.

Anyway, a CMO/manager needs to be be able to delegate tasks in cases of emergency ("You! Take this guy! You! Your speciliaty is better for that guy!"). They need to have experience in, you know, leading (which Jennifer obviously didn't when she was appointed to the job) and work well under pressure (something she didn't really do well either, as showcased in "Missing", though she eventually overcame it all, but the point here is that she had to overcome it in the first place). They need extensive experience in their field and possibly also the fields of the people below them.

What if they have to perform a crucial surgery and make a mistake? Or one of their subordinates makes a mistake and they miss it? This is where the experience kicks in and if you've seen it before, you'll recognize what's wrong/right and immediately spring into action to correct it.

And hey, there's a weird clause in there about constantly searching out new and better ways to improve healthcare and prevent injuries. Well, Carson was a researcher as well, Jennifer isn't (as far as we know). But that's not really an important enough point to stress.

FallenAngelII
January 26th, 2008, 03:22 AM
Ok let me try this another way. Yes logically it would make sense to do that however you do realise that sometimes you have to take a few liberties to tell a story right? One we don't know if the lockdown procedure would have recognised the suits, and second with no real outbreak the tory woul end there. No character development, nada. I guess I just undertand we are watching a fictional science fiction tv show not reality.
You're misunderstanding me (despite the fact that I spelled it all out three time already). Why is it important for Jennifer to have put on a hazmat suit? Well, let's see... she's the CMO of Atlantis and I assume she's also one of the best doctors on Atlantis. What if she gets infected when the first patient comes in? Or if she gets infected simply through the air? Then she'd be sick and if it were a vicious string of something, she'd be unable to treat the patients nor would she be able to lead her subordinates.

She herself believed that the outbreak was real. As such, she had a responsibility to put on a hazmat suit to prevent a situation in which Atlantis would be without a CMO in the middle of medical crisis!


Fair enough but what exactly do you expect from her? She didn't do much in this ep however it showed her compassion for human life and knack for dealing with terminal patients and famiies. She has proven to be a great doctor and so far a good administrator but she still is green hence she will grow as a character. I still fail to see your point unless you expect a completly perfect character at the start.
You, yourself brought "The Seer" up as an example. You claimed that "The Seer" proved she was a capable CMO... despite her only actions in the episode being scanning someone with Ancient scanning technology, reading the printout, disgnosing it as cancer and then saying "There's nothing I can do".

I'm not saying she was incompetent but that episode hardly proved anything. Anyone with a familiarity with the Ancient scanning technology and cancer would've been able to do what she did.


True she still may lack that experience though so far she has done well.
Yes, and experience is vital. She's "done well" so far, yeah. But what if, what if they run into a situation where her lack of experience bites them in the ass and people die because she's just too green? The risk is present! I'm not saying that you can eliminate all of the risks, but simply having her (and not someone more experienced) as the CMO elevates the risks of something going wrong in case of a massive medical emergency.


I'm through with you. I did not ignore you I missed the post so sue me. I am trying to debate you in a civil manner but apparently you refuse to do the same so I'm done.
Your arguments are inane. I never said you were whatever. You've been repeating the same arguments again and again ignoring my replies to said arguments (I believed I had to reply to them three times before you stopped missing them... I could be wrong, though).

Inane is a synonym to "bad"/"useless"/"doesn't make the cut".

And you did repeatedly bring up "The Seer", "Doppelganger" and "Tabulsa Rasa" as examples of her brilliant CMO skills... despite her hardly doing anything revolutionary or noteworthy in any of them.

VSS
January 26th, 2008, 11:08 AM
If you do it right, you can break somebody's ribs. Plus, that was all in Shep's head.

So Shep's mind recalled a nice, gentle resuscitation (that's an oxymoron :)) to spare his poor little heart the image of the real thing? Now, that's coping! I want to be able to repress like that!;)

VSS
January 26th, 2008, 11:14 AM
Found this on the web, not sure how relavent it would be given Atlantis isn't real but feel free to read and rip it to shreds ;)


Spoilerd for size
Air Force Officer Job Descriptions & Qualifications

44AX - CHIEF, HOSPITAL/CLINIC SERVICES


Specialty Summary. Plans and administers medical services at base level medical treatment facilities (MTF), including maintenance of health standards, training, and use of personnel. Directs inpatient and outpatient care and services. Related DoD Occupational Group: 6A.

Duties and Responsibilities:

Administers medical service policies. Provides guidance for implementing comprehensive programs to continuously improve prevention and treatment of medical disease to ensure maximum personnel wartime readiness and combat capability. Determines personnel, materiel, and facility requirements. Administers operational policies for medical service programs.

Coordinates medical service programs. Coordinates health service and patient care with military and civilian medical treatment facilities. Participates in meetings of professional societies and clinics. Confers with commanders and staff members concerning establishing, manning, equipping, operating, and training for medical facilities, units, and personnel. Advises commanders on matters affecting health and welfare of personnel.

Monitors and directs medical service programs. Directs establishment and operation of inpatient and outpatient medical services. Manages assignment of medical officers and enlisted personnel to support medical facility operations. Manages education and training programs for medical officers. Disseminates professional information on new medical concepts, procedures, and techniques. Approves disengagement of patients for Civilian Health and Medical Program of the Uniformed Services (CHAMPUS). Responsible for management and oversight of professional programs to support medical treatment facility accreditation and inspection, including quality assurance and risk management, utilization management, and medical readiness.

Specialty Qualifications:

Knowledge. Fulfillment of education requirement satisfies this requirement.

Education. For entry into this specialty, it is mandatory to possess a doctor of medicine degree or a doctor of osteopathy degree from an approved school of medicine or osteopathy and completion of 1 year of graduate medical education acceptable to the Surgeon General, HQ USAF.

Training. None.

Experience. For award of AFSC 44A3, experience is mandatory in a position with significant responsibility for medical management, including clinical service or department level leadership; or an aggregate of related duties, including work in facility level quality assurance and risk management function or medical staff committees.

Other. None.

Specialty Shredouts:

None



Under the qualifications listed she would be qualified no? Or should I say could be as we don't know her medical background. i realise this is for military but as this is an airforce base ish it would be run by these standards. This supports what I have said many times in other threads about her being able to manage and run it. Without having to know how all the jobs her subordinates do are done. Any managers out there? Do you know how to do the job of everyone working under you?????? I know I don't and I managed a team of 20.
This is the link. (I copy and paste cause personally I hate having to click every 5 mins to read something) :)
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/afoffjobs/bl44ax.htm

Sure she'd be qualified. Quite frankly, they'll take a warm body with an MD in some parts of the country- I just got a letter in the mail looking for one for an AF recruitment/intake center north of here- these are the BARE MINIMUM requirements. But she's also apparently a neurosurgeon. And in charge of Atlantis, FCOL. That's the kicker. There are doctors, and then there are doctors, if you know what I mean.:)

Emme
January 26th, 2008, 11:21 AM
I kinda doubt that's all that's needed to be CMO at an USAF base... if so, then the US Air Force's got low standards.


Doubt what? This is a genuine job ad on the internet what's not to believe. click the link and have a look.
Yes they do have low standards. ;)


Anyway, a CMO/manager needs to be be able to delegate tasks in cases of emergency ("You! Take this guy! You! Your speciality is better for that guy!"). They need to have experience in, you know, leading (which Jennifer obviously didn't when she was appointed to the job) and work well under pressure (something she didn't really do well either, as showcased in "Missing", though she eventually overcame it all, but the point here is that she had to overcome it in the first place). They need extensive experience in their field and possibly also the fields of the people below them.

You know I agree. One that stands out for me was Dopelganger. Ok ok I know it was a dream but If I was Teyla with that bug crawling outta me I would want someone else treating me. "er er er ok lets sedate her?" Whilst backing away. Great thanks doc.

I like the character and see how people don't think she's a good cmo. In first strike she herself said to Weir "you need somebody .... better?"


("You! Take this guy! You! Your speciality is better for that guy!"). They need to have experience in, you know, leading

She did that to a minimal degree in First strike. "Adams that guy just has a cut tell him to put pressure on it and move on there a people worse off upstairs"

Question : To be able to lead people to the correct patients by knowing the specialities, does that come from experience? I would have thought that could come from book learning. Evaluating symptoms and making sure they have the right doc for the job could be done by a child prodigy no?

I wanna say I'm not pro or anti any one I like all the characters (except one but we are not going there :o) But I was unhappy when the one I didn't like went!!!!

Any wayz I deal in facts. I myself don't find any part of it that unbelievable. Give the nature of the show.

As a writer (with terrible spelling) I can see how somethings can be explained. I'm sure others can too. The amount of speculation and theorising that goes on. Great skills no one uses because they would rather de bunk they least fav character!
I have already given a reason for Keller to be the most brilliant Doc in 2 galaxy's But surprise surprise no one wanted to hear it.
For those interested it was a device they found in s9 SG1. It implants memories. They talked about training people to do anything in days. We have the tech and it is possible but no one will consider it plausible. Which leads me to..... people don't want to have the plot holes filled because they like arguing about them.

Emme
January 26th, 2008, 12:08 PM
Sure she'd be qualified. Quite frankly, they'll take a warm body with an MD in some parts of the country- I just got a letter in the mail looking for one for an AF recruitment/intake center north of here- these are the BARE MINIMUM requirements. But she's also apparently a neurosurgeon. And in charge of Atlantis, FCOL. That's the kicker. There are doctors, and then there are doctors, if you know what I mean.:)

The post was more to point out she was qualifed to the people who keep screaming "She isn't qualified she would have had to gone to med school at age 0" :)

I know what you mean I wouldn't want her treating me. I'm just saying her character isn't as unbelievable as people think IMHO. I mean people believe time travel, parallel univereses, gate travel, Life sucking aliens (maybe where the mythos of vampires came from... hmmmm idea for another thread). But people can't believe Keller as a CMO. I find it petty I really do.

Arica12
January 26th, 2008, 01:10 PM
If you do it right, you can break somebody's ribs. Plus, that was all in Shep's head.

mmmm....wonder what hat says about what Shep thinks about Keller's abilities - and he should know having had that particular treatment enough times!;)

EdenSG
January 26th, 2008, 01:40 PM
So having hazmat suits in the infirmary would make a lot of sense since it'd be nigh impossible for someone to get there without the city detecting it first. Jennifer and her band of merry docs would have all the time in the world to put on the suits and prepare to treat the patient(s). To force them to first run off to another section to get the suits would waste valuable (not to mention illogical) time.

This isn't your run-of-the-mill base, this is Atlantis. Why store the hazmat suits far away from the doctors if they're the only ones who actually put on hazmat suits (besides possibly the highest ranking members of the expedition) in case of an outbreak? I mean, remember all the other outbreaks? Who were the first to don hazmat suits? That's right, Carson & his doctors.

And you know what hazmat suits do? Not only do they protect people from getting infected, they protect people from spreading said infections! So if Jennifer actually got infected, at least she'd be able to wander around treating people or administering tests without risk of infected non-infected people.

Just a point on the hazmat suits.

Yes, I do know what hazmat suits do. The main purpose is to protect the person wearing it from getting infected, not to have an infected peson wear it to protect others. You do not store hazmat suits in treatment areas. You can store them near treatment areas.

Look at this scenario. If someone comes to the infirmary ill and the doctor discovered they had a highly contagious, deadly infection then that area, then everyone and everything in that area would immediately be considered “dirty” or infected – especially at first if you can not be sure how the contagion is being transferred. A top priority would be to contain that area and everything and everyone in that area to prevent the spread of the contagion. You would not put a person in a hazmat suit and then send them out of the contained “dirty” area to unaffected areas. Why? Because #1 the suit would be considered contaminated because it is in the area of infection #2 in order to have an infected person put on a hazmat suit on they would have to touch the suit and breath on or at least near the suit as they were putting it on thereby likely leaving the contagion on the outside of the suit where it could infect a non infected person (contagions are not just passed person to person they can also be transferred by objects, touch or air) #3 in order to let that person out of the infected area – even with a hazmat suit on - you have to break quarantine. Atlantis or not, these are basic, standard infection control practices.

This is real life stuff that I have first hand experience and knowledge of, thus I still stick with my assumption that she likely did not have access to the hazmat suits as she was in a treatment area.

VSS
January 26th, 2008, 01:41 PM
The post was more to point out she was qualifed to the people who keep screaming "She isn't qualified she would have had to gone to med school at age 0" :)

I know what you mean I wouldn't want her treating me. I'm just saying her character isn't as unbelievable as people think IMHO. I mean people believe time travel, parallel univereses, gate travel, Life sucking aliens (maybe where the mythos of vampires came from... hmmmm idea for another thread). But people can't believe Keller as a CMO. I find it petty I really do.

I understood your point. To get her qualifications for CMO of Atlantis and as a neurosurgeon, she needs ten more years.

EdenSG
January 26th, 2008, 01:43 PM
The post was more to point out she was qualifed to the people who keep screaming "She isn't qualified she would have had to gone to med school at age 0" :)

I know what you mean I wouldn't want her treating me. I'm just saying her character isn't as unbelievable as people think IMHO. I mean people believe time travel, parallel univereses, gate travel, Life sucking aliens (maybe where the mythos of vampires came from... hmmmm idea for another thread). But people can't believe Keller as a CMO. I find it petty I really do.

Good post, excellent points (especially the part I bolded)

Most of the arguments in this thread are based on assumptions.

Assuming what Keller’s age is.
Assuming what her experience level is.
Assuming one knows where the hazmats suits are. (even with my previous post I cannot say where the suits are, I can only assume)
Assuming what the qualifications to be CMO on Atlantis are.

My final assumption on this matter is, she is there, she has the job so in the world of Stargate - not the real world - she is qualified on some level to be there.

VSS
January 26th, 2008, 02:31 PM
Good post, excellent points (especially the part I bolded)

Most of the arguments in this thread are based on assumptions.

Assuming what Keller’s age is.
Assuming what her experience level is.
Assuming one knows where the hazmats suits are. (even with my previous post I cannot say where the suits are, I can only assume)
Assuming what the qualifications to be CMO on Atlantis are.

My final assumption on this matter is, she is there, she has the job so in the world of Stargate - not the real world - she is qualified on some level to be there.

I see you subscribe to Gottfried Liebniz's best-of-all-possible-worlds philosophy.;)

Just remember, TBTB aren't really God, they just play them on TV.

Emme
January 26th, 2008, 02:45 PM
I understood your point. To get her qualifications for CMO of Atlantis and as a neurosurgeon, she needs ten more years.

ten more years or 10 years from someone else using a memory implantation device : )

PG15
January 26th, 2008, 03:25 PM
mmmm....wonder what hat says about what Shep thinks about Keller's abilities - and he should know having had that particular treatment enough times!;)

No, he shouldn't know, since he'd be unconscious any time CPR was performed on him. ;)

ciannwn
January 27th, 2008, 12:23 PM
Medical procedures and what expertise she's shown so far really comes down to the fact that she does whatever the scriptwriters tell her to. What if Beckett had still been CMO for this season? He couldn't have operated on Weir and succeeded where Keller failed because the plot required Weir to be injected with nanites. He couldn't have cured Davos of cancer either because the plot required him to die during the course of the story. Would he even have acted differently in 'Doppelganger' when Heightmeyer is found dead in bed?

If the scriptwriter had wanted Keller to put on a hazmat suit he'd have arranged for her to do so. I'm guessing that he didn't want her to because of that scene where she and Ronon are just about to kiss before getting distracted by the lights going off and on. It wouldn't have had quite the same effect if they'd started to lean towards each other and she'd had to stop to take a helmet off.

Emme
January 27th, 2008, 01:59 PM
Medical procedures and what expertise she's shown so far really comes down to the fact that she does whatever the scriptwriters tell her to. What if Beckett had still been CMO for this season? He couldn't have operated on Weir and succeeded where Keller failed because the plot required Weir to be injected with nanites. He couldn't have cured Davos of cancer either because the plot required him to die during the course of the story. Would he even have acted differently in 'Doppelganger' when Heightmeyer is found dead in bed?

If the scriptwriter had wanted Keller to put on a hazmat suit he'd have arranged for her to do so. I'm guessing that he didn't want her to because of that scene where she and Ronon are just about to kiss before getting distracted by the lights going off and on. It wouldn't have had quite the same effect if they'd started to lean towards each other and she'd had to stop to take a helmet off.

Very good points. This is similar to what Ive said before. But people want this to be a medical drama. Stargate Atlantis-E.R. with special guest star Todd the wraith as Dr Lief Suckar.

"Dr were losing her"
"I'll hold her hand Mwahaaahaaaaaaa"

Avenger
January 27th, 2008, 09:35 PM
I kinda doubt that's all that's needed to be CMO at an USAF base... if so, then the US Air Force's got low standards.

Don't doubt it because you don't like it. The minimum standards for the job were posted.


Anyway, a CMO/manager needs to be be able to delegate tasks in cases of emergency ("You! Take this guy! You! Your speciliaty is better for that guy!"). They need to have experience in, you know, leading (which Jennifer obviously didn't when she was appointed to the job) and work well under pressure (something she didn't really do well either, as showcased in "Missing", though she eventually overcame it all, but the point here is that she had to overcome it in the first place). They need extensive experience in their field and possibly also the fields of the people below them.

And what says a person can't be as cool as a cucumber in a triage situation but would be freaked out while being hunted by cannibals on another planet? Sorry, but that doesn't fly. I'm quite confident when I'm in the forest when it's on fire and it's my job to put it out, but I wouldn't be if I was at a bank and a bunch of guys busted in with guns to rob the place. Both are pressure situations, but I'm much equipped to handle the first scenario.


What if they have to perform a crucial surgery and make a mistake? Or one of their subordinates makes a mistake and they miss it? This is where the experience kicks in and if you've seen it before, you'll recognize what's wrong/right and immediately spring into action to correct it.

Not all doctors are surgeons. Nor does a CMO have to be. Not that we've seen a staff, but there could be a surgeon on the medical staff for all we know.


And hey, there's a weird clause in there about constantly searching out new and better ways to improve healthcare and prevent injuries. Well, Carson was a researcher as well, Jennifer isn't (as far as we know). But that's not really an important enough point to stress.

Not every doctor goes into the research field, and once they do, very few of them actually continue to practice medicine unless it is related specifically to their research.

Also, "search out better ways to improve health care" does not necessarily have anything to do with research. Improving health care can mean improve a patient's experience while in a hospital, increasing the speed at which a patient receives care, or decreasing the length of a hospital stay.

Emme
January 27th, 2008, 11:00 PM
Unbelievably well said.

FallenAngelII
January 28th, 2008, 02:55 AM
Just a point on the hazmat suits.

Yes, I do know what hazmat suits do. The main purpose is to protect the person wearing it from getting infected, not to have an infected peson wear it to protect others. You do not store hazmat suits in treatment areas. You can store them near treatment areas.
No, they can be used to protect people against an infected person as well. Let's see... on an entire base with 100 people, only 2 are infected. What do you do in order to have them travel through the base to the infirmary? Have the other 98 people put on hazmat suits? No, you get the infected people to put them on.


Look at this scenario. If someone comes to the infirmary ill and the doctor discovered they had a highly contagious, deadly infection then that area, then everyone and everything in that area would immediately be considered “dirty” or infected – especially at first if you can not be sure how the contagion is being transferred.
O... K... what about the many times where dangerous contagions will be caught by the Atlantis lockdown protocol? If someone steps through the gate or spontaneously develops something and Atlantis notices it, it'll alert everyone.

What's easier to do, have Keller walk across some rooms to get a hazmat suit in preparation, wasting valuable time, or simply put one on? This is Atlantis, not a normal hospital.

I'm not saying they probably stockpile them in there. But they should have a few of them for the most important doctors in case of an outbreak that didn't start in the infirmary (like, say, what Jennifer thought was happening in "Quarantine").


My final assumption on this matter is, she is there, she has the job so in the world of Stargate - not the real world - she is qualified on some level to be there.
I can go to Atlantis. Doesn't mean I'll be automatically qualified to take over Rodney's job. She was there as a doctor. Then Carson died and Elizabeth, in a moment of uncharacteristically bad judgement, appointed her interim CMO. It's not like she "auditioned" and beat everyone else out.


Medical procedures and what expertise she's shown so far really comes down to the fact that she does whatever the scriptwriters tell her to. What if Beckett had still been CMO for this season? He couldn't have operated on Weir and succeeded where Keller failed because the plot required Weir to be injected with nanites. He couldn't have cured Davos of cancer either because the plot required him to die during the course of the story. Would he even have acted differently in 'Doppelganger' when Heightmeyer is found dead in bed?
The question is not "What would Carson have done differently". The question is "What if there's a dire situation that Jennifer can't deal with because she doesn't have the situation needed" or "What if Jennifer makes a crucial mistake anyone with the experience required wouldn't"?`Just because it hasn't happend doesn't mean it can't happen. Why do you appoint people with experience to these situations? So that they don't screw up royally when they run into a major problem that their experience will tell them what to do. Having Jennifer as CMO is elevating said risk because she must logically lack a lot of vital experience for the job.


If the scriptwriter had wanted Keller to put on a hazmat suit he'd have arranged for her to do so. I'm guessing that he didn't want her to because of that scene where she and Ronon are just about to kiss before getting distracted by the lights going off and on. It wouldn't have had quite the same effect if they'd started to lean towards each other and she'd had to stop to take a helmet off.
Bad excuse. "Plot called for it". Doesn't mean we can't complain about how bad the plot is. Of course everything on Atlantis is based on plot. We're complaining about the bad plot.


Don't doubt it because you don't like it. The minimum standards for the job were posted.
Which sounded a lot like the minimum requirements for being a doctor at a general hospital.


And what says a person can't be as cool as a cucumber in a triage situation but would be freaked out while being hunted by cannibals on another planet? Sorry, but that doesn't fly. I'm quite confident when I'm in the forest when it's on fire and it's my job to put it out, but I wouldn't be if I was at a bank and a bunch of guys busted in with guns to rob the place. Both are pressure situations, but I'm much equipped to handle the first scenario.
Because this is Atlantis. You have to be tempered if you're to go off-world (which the CMO will occasionally do). Let's see... if you were putting out a fire in the bank, would you stop putting it out, freak out and whine excessively?

She's young, inexperienced and immature. People who aren't those things would probably be able to do crucial surgery necessary for survival and then flee the scene quickly without freaking out and whining. I'm not saying she's required to be able to do that (yet). I'm saying: How much easier wouldn't it be for the residents of Atlantis if she were from the start? What if that situation had happened in some other planet where they were being hunted by really evil people and three people's survival hinged on her not whining and freaking?

I dislike and fear a lot of things. Doesn't mean I won't be able to try to ignore that should push come to shove. Carson would occasionally fret, but he was always ready to do his job should the situation call for it.


Not all doctors are surgeons. Nor does a CMO have to be. Not that we've seen a staff, but there could be a surgeon on the medical staff for all we know.
I never said anything like that. But Jennifer is a surgeon (in fact, she's probably one of their best surgeons if not their very best at the moment). If something happens, she'll be one of the people operating.


Not every doctor goes into the research field, and once they do, very few of them actually continue to practice medicine unless it is related specifically to their research.
In Atlantis' case, it's kinda necessary, what with the new diseases never-before-seen.

ciannwn
January 28th, 2008, 03:55 AM
Bad excuse. "Plot called for it". Doesn't mean we can't complain about how bad the plot is. Of course everything on Atlantis is based on plot. We're complaining about the bad plot.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't complain about bad plots and I think it's great that people are stating which elements of the plots they've based their opinions on. What we're really looking at, though, is what the writers did for plot purposes and giving our views on whether or not these plot elements make Keller look like a competent and believable CMO.


I'm not saying she's required to be able to do that (yet). I'm saying: How much easier wouldn't it be for the residents of Atlantis if she were from the start?

It would have been easier for a lot of viewers too. :D

Avenger
January 28th, 2008, 10:40 AM
Because this is Atlantis. You have to be tempered if you're to go off-world (which the CMO will occasionally do). Let's see... if you were putting out a fire in the bank, would you stop putting it out, freak out and whine excessively?

How are civilian doctors going to be legitimately "tempered" for off world work in potential combat zones? Unless they served in the military or were part of some kind of UN peace keeping operation, it's just not going to happen.

You misread my post. Let me clarify it. I like fighting wildfires, but if I were out on a fire and then was suddenly to be chased by the crazy, white trash hillbillies from Deliverance who wanted to do very, shall I say, very undesirable things to me, I'd be scared ****less.

So far, Keller has been quite calm in medical emergencies and handled them extremely well. She did not handle being out in the woods while being chased by people who wanted to catch her and eat her. You can't use the way she reacted to the later to judge how she would handle the pressure of a stressful medical situation because they are not the same kinds of situations.


She's young, inexperienced and immature. People who aren't those things would probably be able to do crucial surgery necessary for survival and then flee the scene quickly without freaking out and whining. I'm not saying she's required to be able to do that (yet). I'm saying: How much easier wouldn't it be for the residents of Atlantis if she were from the start? What if that situation had happened in some other planet where they were being hunted by really evil people and three people's survival hinged on her not whining and freaking?

She has yet to freak in a situation where she was needed as a doctor.


I dislike and fear a lot of things. Doesn't mean I won't be able to try to ignore that should push come to shove. Carson would occasionally fret, but he was always ready to do his job should the situation call for it.

It's funny when people use this kind of statement to try to prove a point because it does not prove anything. You can not assume how you think you would react in a situation applies to all people.



I never said anything like that. But Jennifer is a surgeon (in fact, she's probably one of their best surgeons if not their very best at the moment). If something happens, she'll be one of the people operating.

Then perhaps you should wait until she faces a difficult surgical situation before jumping to the conclusion that she's going to freak out because of the stress.



In Atlantis' case, it's kinda necessary, what with the new diseases never-before-seen.

No one complained that Carson was a completely unrealistic doctor who had the time to do all kinds of cutting edge research and keep his medical skills up to snuff. That doesn't happen in the real world either.

Emme
January 28th, 2008, 11:36 AM
Which sounded a lot like the minimum requirements for being a doctor at a general hospital.

But weren't! It may have sounded that way but it's not.

Check the article again. as my friend Avenger would put it 'don't doubt it just because you don't like it' :D

joebags
January 28th, 2008, 12:24 PM
I still haven't seen Keller do anything that proves to me she is a competent doctor or surgeon. All I hear come out of her mouth is, "There is nothing I can do" or "I don't kow what else to do." We know one thing, she doesn't do CPR correctly. ;)

Yes, we saw her open Weir's head, but a neurosurgeon cannot operate on a heart, or put bones together, or treat cancer. These are all specialized fields. Is she a neurosurgeon? Don't know, we've not been told. It would be highly unrealistic to see her doing various operations. She can't be an expert on everything.

Her immaturity - hey, if I were being chased by cannibals, I certainly would NOT be screaming at the top of my lungs! I would hunker down and keep my mouth shut. That's just common sense!

Keller has a big problem being wrapped up in herself. Everything she says is all about me, me, ME! Poor Teyla has just found her family and people missing so what does Keller discuss? How much she misses her daddy and how she is so happy she gets to go visit him. Talk about tactless!

A tender Ronon/Keller moment (an attempt at one anyway) revolved around Ronon discussing his "ex" and how he lost her. Instead of sympathizing with him, she switches the convo to herself and how awful HER life is being such a genius (tough, yes?), and how she missed out on all those parties.

Ronon should know by now - run like hell dude!

Overall I don't think its so much Keller's youth, as it is her mental stability. I don't know how she could ever pass a psych evaluation, and you know to get to Atlantis, she would have had to pass rigourous screening. Most of Atlantis is made up of geniuses - they are a dime a dozen there, so I just can't figure how she even made the grade.

Avenger
January 28th, 2008, 12:35 PM
hey, if I were being chased by cannibals, I certainly would NOT be screaming at the top of my lungs! I would hunker down and keep my mouth shut. That's just common sense!

Telling people what you would do doesn't mean squat. Furthermore, you don't know how you would actually react in that situation.

Emme
January 28th, 2008, 01:04 PM
Her immaturity - hey, if I were being chased by cannibals, I certainly would NOT be screaming at the top of my lungs! I would hunker down and keep my mouth shut. That's just common sense!

Can you give me the time index of where she does this please. I watched it recently and don't remember her screaming at the top of her lungs...........


Keller has a big problem being wrapped up in herself. Everything she says is all about me, me, ME! Poor Teyla has just found her family and people missing so what does Keller discuss? How much she misses her daddy and how she is so happy she gets to go visit him. Talk about tactless!

A tender Ronon/Keller moment (an attempt at one anyway) revolved around Ronon discussing his "ex" and how he lost her. Instead of sympathizing with him, she switches the convo to herself and how awful HER life is being such a genius (tough, yes?), and how she missed out on all those parties.

So you are from the camp of my problems are worse than yours therefore i will dismiss yours as insignificant.
I saw both these convos as character developement we always complain we don't get enough back story. But when we do......... Maybe she was trying to bond make new friends. I think that that conversation about her uber genius was added because the fans are always saying she's too young.
We probably gave them the need to add this info by conversations much like this.
When she told Teyla about being able to go home and see her Dad I wouldn't say tactless. Teyla is a caring person who wouldn't dismiss other people's unhappiness or wallow in self pitty either. I don't think Teyla would have taken it in a gloating kind of way.

ToasterOnFire
January 28th, 2008, 01:32 PM
No one complained that Carson was a completely unrealistic doctor who had the time to do all kinds of cutting edge research and keep his medical skills up to snuff.
I did. :D

Avenger
January 28th, 2008, 01:43 PM
Well, okay then. Cheers!

Willow'sCat
January 28th, 2008, 01:52 PM
I still haven't seen Keller do anything that proves to me she is a competent doctor or surgeon. All I hear come out of her mouth is, "There is nothing I can do" or "I don't kow what else to do." We know one thing, she doesn't do CPR correctly. ;)Carson was no better in that situation, and really that is what you are doing right? Comparing?

Well lets compare then... Carson's medical activities directly lead to mass murder... Keller not so much. ;)

Keller for the win \o/ :)

FoolishPleasure
January 28th, 2008, 02:09 PM
Can you give me the time index of where she does this please. I watched it recently and don't remember her screaming at the top of her lungs...........

TEYLA!!!!!!!!!

*LOL* OMG - SciFi Channel even has it on their "watch Atlantis" promos. I laugh every time I see that commercial.

Sorry, I'm with the camp that says, "If killer(s) is/are after you, you do not run around screaming. You STFU! :)

Emme
January 28th, 2008, 02:51 PM
TEYLA!!!!!!!!!

*LOL* OMG - SciFi Channel even has it on their "watch Atlantis" promos. I laugh every time I see that commercial.

Sorry, I'm with the camp that says, "If killer(s) is/are after you, you do not run around screaming. You STFU! :)

Ahhh so shouting a name not Ahhhhhhhhhhh screaming. I follow ya. I thought you meant something different. Saying that though I would probably call out to find the warrior who could protect me rather than stay alone with the killers who could hunt me down whether I'm screaming or not. Oh and if STFU means what I think it means NOT NICE!!! :weiranime34:
Big meanie :p

In uk we don't get your promo's we get a rap :eek:
S-T-A-R-G-A-T- TO THE E WOOOOOW

Thought it was quite inventive at first but now it grates on me. :psycho:

Jill_Ion
January 28th, 2008, 07:37 PM
I see you subscribe to Gottfried Liebniz's best-of-all-possible-worlds philosophy.;)

Just remember, TBTB aren't really God, they just play them on TV.

They aren't?

*looks at TPTB altar*

Uh oh.


:lol:

jelgate
January 28th, 2008, 07:41 PM
They aren't?*looks at TPTB altar*Uh oh.:lol:Why aren't you worshipping my alter?

Jumper_One
January 28th, 2008, 08:05 PM
Why aren't you worshipping my alter?

:lol: hallowed is the almighty jelgate ;) :P

Jill_Ion
January 28th, 2008, 08:19 PM
Why aren't you worshipping my alter?

Uh...uh...uh...

*replaces TPTB with Jelgate*

What do you mean? Your altar is right here! :o :o :o

:hallowed:

FallenAngelII
January 29th, 2008, 03:30 AM
Well lets compare then... Carson's medical activities directly lead to mass murder... Keller not so much. ;)

Jennifer's action directly lead to Elizabeth taking over the Asuran survivors and who knows what she's got in store for us? John's actions lead to the death of Kate Heightmeyer.

Sam's actions in season 8 lead to the deaths of countless people in the Milky Way. Hitler's pediatrician's actions lead to the Holocaust.

You cannot blame people for doing something they believe is for the good and then have it blow back in their face in totally unpredictable ways. Carson was lied to. What is he, psychic?

Avenger
January 29th, 2008, 10:07 AM
Jennifer's action directly lead to Elizabeth taking over the Asuran survivors and who knows what she's got in store for us?

We don't actually know if the Weir we saw at the end of BAMSR is our real life weir or a clone repli version.

Madeleine
January 29th, 2008, 01:12 PM
I could handle Keller as the #2 doctor; then her age would be almost immaterial. If she'd been introduced as Carson's protege that'd be easy to accept.

As things are, I'm going with the backstory that she *was* supposed to be brought in under Carson, and had had intensive training to be the assistant to the CMO on Atlantis, and (improbable as it may seem) when he died all the other more experienced doctors on the SGC's list just happenned to have personal reasons for not wanting to leave their home galaxy, and so Keller was sent.

Does it strike anyone else as odd that there wasn't a doctor already on Atlantis who was able to take on the job? It means that either Carson was the only doctor, or else Carson's anonymous 2iC (one of the Brightest and Best, as weir said) wasn't up to the job. I suppose that perhaps they died too, but offscreen.

[/ramble]

Avenger
January 29th, 2008, 06:40 PM
I get the impression that Keller didn't just show up to be the doctor after Carson left. I'd always thought she'd been there. We just never saw her.

Kazzie
January 29th, 2008, 07:53 PM
I have watched the episode and Jennifer talking about her background was in response to Ronon telling her that when she first arrived on Atlantis that he didn't feel she belonged. She was explaining that for all of her life she has always felt she never belonged.

She has lost her mother in the past so she does understand what it feels like to lose someone you love. Everyones pain is relative to that person and judging her harshly on that is unfair.

Also no-one can say how they would react when facing what Jennifer did in missing. Rodney still carries on when faced with danger but that was not pointed out and he's been going out in the field longer than Jennifer.

In Missing she had to face men who she was told would basically kill her, her fear of heights and vertigo (not an easy thing to deal with regardless of circumstance - I suffer a fear of heights as wells as arachnophobia - it is very difficult to push past no matter the circumstance), perform life saving surgery with practically next to no equipment and eat raw meat which I'm sure would turn everyones stomach at the thought. At the end she wasn't being tactless she was thanking Teyla for keeping her alive and giving her the chance to see her father again which is important to her as she had explained he was all she had.

Also despite her inexperience I do not find her to be immature. She handles medical emergencies well and with confidence.

In the Seer even Carson would have responded in the same way - nothing he could do and he was more experienced. As a health care professional I don't expect the CMO to perform miracles which is the message I am getting from your posts. Not all experienced people want the top job, they are quite happy for someone else to have to deal with all the problems that come with the job.

In Quarantine she was locked in the infirmary. I would not expect hazmat gear to be in that and I believe in the episode where there was a previous contagion and lockdown Carson and his staff had to go and get into the hazmat gear. Also sitting around for as long as she was in hazmat gear is not appropriate - dehaydration , ventilation system not working and as no-one knew where the source was she would already be considered as infectious.

The most I would have expected would be that when patients eventually arrived that she would don gloves, gown, mask and protective eyewear - basically what would happen in hospital environment I suspect that everyone in Atlantis would have been considered infectious until tests prove otherwise. Also I have still to figure out how the staff locked in the infirmary during an outbreak were meant to help people if they couldn't actually get to them with Rodney's updated plan.

I treat the stories in the show for what they are - science fiction so I don't expect any role to be as realistic as in real life - I enjoy them for this reason.

FallenAngelII
January 29th, 2008, 09:23 PM
In Quarantine she was locked in the infirmary. I would not expect hazmat gear to be in that and I believe in the episode where there was a previous contagion and lockdown Carson and his staff had to go and get into the hazmat gear. Also sitting around for as long as she was in hazmat gear is not appropriate - dehaydration , ventilation system not working and as no-one knew where the source was she would already be considered as infectious.
I don't remember that.

There's a very effective cure for dehydration called drinking water. And she could've just put the suit on without sealing it, waiting for the lockdown to clear and the patients to stream in (as she was expecting them to).



The most I would have expected would be that when patients eventually arrived that she would don gloves, gown, mask and protective eyewear - basically what would happen in hospital environment I suspect that everyone in Atlantis would have been considered infectious until tests prove otherwise. Also I have still to figure out how the staff locked in the infirmary during an outbreak were meant to help people if they couldn't actually get to them with Rodney's updated plan.
You know why she should've put on a hazmat suit? Because it's a lockdown. It's Atlantis. You never know what kind of diseases could come through the gate and smite you. Why should Jennifer have put on a hazmat suit? Why her? Because she's the CMO. Not only will she have to run the infirmary, she's supposedly one of (if not the) their best doctors.

If she were to randomly get infected by the first person to come into the infirmary and then incapacitated, that would be very bad. And since this is Pegasus, they can't just fly off to the nearest hospital. This is why it is imperative for her to take precautions in situations like these, major quarantine lockdowns where Atlantis itself is saying "Something big's going on" (Jennifer believed the outbreak was real).

Kazzie
January 29th, 2008, 11:41 PM
Yes water helps with dehydration but if you are sitting in a hot heavy duty suit (sealed or not) when the ventilation system is not working you do sweat out what you put in. Also as she would already be considered as infectious until tests proved otherwise as no-one knew where the source was there is not point to a hazmat suit and as others have posted it isn't logical to for someone potentially infectious to wander around atlantis in a hazmat suit and if the suits were kept in the infirmary logic would dictate that they would probably be considered contaminated the second she put it on.

FallenAngelII
January 29th, 2008, 11:54 PM
Yes water helps with dehydration but if you are sitting in a hot heavy duty suit (sealed or not) when the ventilation system is not working you do sweat out what you put in. Also as she would already be considered as infectious until tests proved otherwise as no-one knew where the source was there is not point to a hazmat suit and as others have posted it isn't logical to for someone potentially infectious to wander around atlantis in a hazmat suit and if the suits were kept in the infirmary logic would dictate that they would probably be considered contaminated the second she put it on.
She's the CMO. She's the most important person in case of an outbreak. Hence, she should have worn a hazmat suit.

What if she was infected? Well, the suit would possibly protect others from her infection. This Atlantis, how often do you know beforehand that someone is carrying a deadly/high infectious disease before it's spread too far to tell? Whenever the quarantine lockdown procedure is put in place (or the city just warns of a quarantine-situation), all the doctors should immediately put on hazmat suits just in case.

I mean, there's no downside to it (besides in this case, in which dehydration is kinda a valid point). And there's a lot to gain from it if the doctors are all protected from the disease and hence allowed to treat the patients without falling ill themselves and leaving Atlantis with zero capable doctors.

Very few diseases are so potent they can spread simply by someone grabbing a hazmat suit and putting it on. And what if she was infected? The minute someone walked into the infirmary, they would be infected as well, hazmat suit or not (though the suit would probably limit the risk). On the plus side, if she isn't infected and there was a real outbreak, she'd be protected and not drop dead or something and voila, CMO in top notch condition to cure everyone. See the logic here?

Kazzie
January 30th, 2008, 12:12 AM
Diseases are not just passed by physical contact but different means depending on the disease. Any surface itself can become contaminated. Therefore if you are already seen as infectious until tests prove otherwise just touching the suit, and I would suspect that she would have to touch a part of the exterior of the suit, that it would be considered contaminated.

As no-one knew where the source was on atlantis, then Keller and everyone on atlantis would be considered infectious and would all have to undergo tests to prove otherwise. In healthcare we use universal precautions - gloves, gown, mask, eyewear to protect ourselves and our patients.
As Keller was unable to comunicate with others or access a computer she would have deemed everyone as infectious ( including herself) until it was otherwise confirmed.

Emme
January 30th, 2008, 12:14 AM
She's the CMO. She's the most important person in case of an outbreak. Hence, she should have worn a hazmat suit.

What if she was infected? Well, the suit would possibly protect others from her infection. This Atlantis, how often do you know beforehand that someone is carrying a deadly/high infectious disease before it's spread too far to tell? Whenever the quarantine lockdown procedure is put in place (or the city just warns of a quarantine-situation), all the doctors should immediately put on hazmat suits just in case.

I mean, there's no downside to it (besides in this case, in which dehydration is kinda a valid point). And there's a lot to gain from it if the doctors are all protected from the disease and hence allowed to treat the patients without falling ill themselves and leaving Atlantis with zero capable doctors.

Very few diseases are so potent they can spread simply by someone grabbing a hazmat suit and putting it on. And what if she was infected? The minute someone walked into the infirmary, they would be infected as well, hazmat suit or not (though the suit would probably limit the risk). On the plus side, if she isn't infected and there was a real outbreak, she'd be protected and not drop dead or something and voila, CMO in top notch condition to cure everyone. See the logic here?

Some very good points there. However It wouldn't be logical, as the docs would need to carry a hazmat suit around with them 26 hours a day. If the point of it is to be ready for infection at all times they would need to have one when they go to bed to the commisary the bathroom...??? Or they could position them every 5 feet throughout the entire city ;) Just in case a doc is passing when lock down kicks in. Man that's a lot of suits. :S
You can't assume that the docs will be in the infirmary at the time of the out break.

I can't believe this has caused such a debate! LOL The great debate of Hazmat storage!!!!! :D;):D;):D;):D;):D;)

Avenger
January 30th, 2008, 06:24 PM
She's the CMO. She's the most important person in case of an outbreak. Hence, she should have worn a hazmat suit.

She was in a room that as locked down because it was considered to be infected. She has to assume that she is infected. If there are hazmat suits in the infirmary, they are infected as well. Keller putting on an infected hazmat suit that has in no way been scrubbed clean is useless. The suit would become a means of spreading the disease.


What if she was infected? Well, the suit would possibly protect others from her infection. This Atlantis, how often do you know beforehand that someone is carrying a deadly/high infectious disease before it's spread too far to tell? Whenever the quarantine lockdown procedure is put in place (or the city just warns of a quarantine-situation), all the doctors should immediately put on hazmat suits just in case.

Not if the suit she puts on comes from a room she believes to be infected, making her assume that the suit is infected as well. Furthermore, hazmat suits are designed to keep things out. Not keep the nasty stuff in.


Very few diseases are so potent they can spread simply by someone grabbing a hazmat suit and putting it on. And what if she was infected? The minute someone walked into the infirmary, they would be infected as well, hazmat suit or not (though the suit would probably limit the risk). On the plus side, if she isn't infected and there was a real outbreak, she'd be protected and not drop dead or something and voila, CMO in top notch condition to cure everyone. See the logic here?

We're talking about a science fiction show where we've seen some pretty damn fast acting diseases.

FallenAngelII
January 31st, 2008, 10:36 AM
Diseases are not just passed by physical contact but different means depending on the disease. Any surface itself can become contaminated. Therefore if you are already seen as infectious until tests prove otherwise just touching the suit, and I would suspect that she would have to touch a part of the exterior of the suit, that it would be considered contaminated.

As no-one knew where the source was on atlantis, then Keller and everyone on atlantis would be considered infectious and would all have to undergo tests to prove otherwise. In healthcare we use universal precautions - gloves, gown, mask, eyewear to protect ourselves and our patients.
As Keller was unable to comunicate with others or access a computer she would have deemed everyone as infectious ( including herself) until it was otherwise confirmed.
Then why have hazmat suits at all? I mean, in case of a quarantine, everyone is probably infected! Why protect anyone? Let's burn the suits now! They're only taking up storage space!

You know what the worst case scenario is if she is infected and she dons a suit (and the disease can be spread through her touching other people while wearing it)? She would've wasted a good 5-10 minutes putting it on! Woe is her!

If she isn't infected? She'd be protected against the disease and thus allowed to work her damnest to cure the sick people.


Some very good points there. However It wouldn't be logical, as the docs would need to carry a hazmat suit around with them 26 hours a day.
No, but it would be logical to have them in the infirmary. There should always be doctors in there in case someone gets hurt/comes back sick from an unscheduled return trip. So storing some hazmat suits in the infirmary would be kinda, you know, logical.


She was in a room that as locked down because it was considered to be infected. She has to assume that she is infected. If there are hazmat suits in the infirmary, they are infected as well. Keller putting on an infected hazmat suit that has in no way been scrubbed clean is useless. The suit would become a means of spreading the disease.
Again, then why even have hazmat suits if everyone on base has to be considered infected? She didn't seem to think she was infected as she was ready to bust out of there (and possibly infect everyone else) and she was prepping the infirmary to treat the sick. Doesn't the quarantine lock down everything or was that just for this episode? I can't remember.

So just because you're in a room that was locked down doesn't mean you're infected. Let's see, people who were locked down somewhere and didn't even once think they were infected:
Sam, Radek, Teyla, John, Katie


Not if the suit she puts on comes from a room she believes to be infected, making her assume that the suit is infected as well. Furthermore, hazmat suits are designed to keep things out. Not keep the nasty stuff in.
Yeah, if she's in that same room, then she's just as infected as the suit. Woe is her if she puts it on and wastes a few minutes. However, best case scenario, she isn't infected and putting it on will protect her against infection from people coming into the infirmary.

Wasted 5-10 minutes vs. CMO that doesn't get infected by whatever caused the quarantine... hmmmmm...

Hazmat suits can contain diseases. It just has to be a special kind. The key point here is also that in no way does putting the hazmat suit on additionally put the well-being of either Jennifer or other people coming into the infirmary at risk while it very much might protect both parties.

Really, can you come up with any downside to Jennifer always having a hazmat suit ready at her workplace vs. the many, many upsides?


We're talking about a science fiction show where we've seen some pretty damn fast acting diseases.
If we're going to assume that every disease spreads damn fast, then hazmat suits are useless. Gate them back to Earth and save up on storage space now.

In cases of emergency with real outbreaks, the key personnel should always put on hazmat suits "just to be safe". There aren't enough for everyone to put them on and putting them on only wastes a few minutes, while it protects the people inside of them "in case". John, Sam, Rodney, Radek, Lorne, Jennifer, those are the key people we need protected and not put down by the Space Flu.

If anyone's going to put on hazmat suits, it should be them. And since Jennifer spends a lot of her time in the infirmary for obvious reasons, there should always be one (or more for the other doctors) in there just in case.

And what was up with Jennifer being the only one in the infirmary in the middle of the day, anyway? What if there'd been an emergency? Where were the rest of the doctors, on vacation? Sleeping? Skipping out on their duties?

Mack_1
January 31st, 2008, 11:26 AM
SierraGolf-OneNiner Quote:

Originally Posted by Detox
So you're telling us that if you were being chase by cannibals, and you injured your ankles. You wouldn't start crying?

Bull ****.
If I would be in that situation unarmed I would get totally crazy for about 2 to 3 minutes. "Oh my god I'm so dead!" Over and over again but then I would pull myself together and start fighting back.

Let me share something from my past. I had a very bad time in school. I was the geek and so on. They came after me because they thought I was easy prey. After running away and crying and thinking I'm so dead for the 3 min I ran into a corner where I knew no one could attack me from behind. Then I took a piece of wood and waited for them. Man that was a fight. I wasn't the only one bleeding. Never underestimate the survival instinct of a human. I know those guys aren't cannibals but they were bad as hell anyway.

What Keller did was understandable for about 10 min of the episode Missing but no longer. She should have gotten her act together and fought back. Well she eventually did but it took her 40 min of the episode.


Man you guys can argue a point to the last breath!:cameron:

Yes Keller is a “coward” when she is in a dangerous situation, BUT she holds her own after a while.:vala:

Yes she is to “young” to be a CMO of the infirmary, do that means Prodigy children can’t reach and hold jobs that demand experience just for the fact they are young? experience is something you obtain while doing such job so she is getting hers along with the reactions of been in a place so out of the reality she used to live.:ronan:

She is a good Dr. the cases she has work on tell about it, the fact that she operate on EW after her accident and was successful of keeping her alive are testimony of that, what other methods she had, they were cut out from earth remember, she was put in that position out of emergency, from what I remember EW impose the charge into her in the last episode of season 3.:weir:

And I’m amaze that you had put up with Mckay for four years and don’t complain about his whining and mopping and stupid attitude in almost all of the seasons SGA has run.

Yes he is a “genius“, yes he is a scientist and yes he is a civilian, BUT he’s been doing the off world rutine for four years and still he can be a scary cat when he is in a situation he doesn’t like or when he's life is in danger, But he does the same, he rises to the occasion and can hold his own too…after all the whining and mopping.. so please give the gal a break till she gets it together.. or until TPTB “kill” Her off as it is their trade mark.:cool:

Me I been liking her a lot so she can be in for as many seasons they keep the show on.:sam:

And about the Hazmat Suits, they were lock in a room, does any body know if such room had such hazmat suit in the closet? :S

And the ventilation system was down so no chance of infection there and if for some reason she got infected they had the brilliant Mckay there to save the day.. thought he wasn’t fairing it to good himself, having his breakdown and everything…mmm::S

magie
January 31st, 2008, 11:51 AM
And what was up with Jennifer being the only one in the infirmary in the middle of the day, anyway? What if there'd been an emergency? Where were the rest of the doctors, on vacation? Sleeping? Skipping out on their duties?

Don't you get it? to be stuck with Ronon, of course. Does she have another role than that? so now that you know that she is supposed to be a potential LI for Ronon, everything's clear :

- she was alone in the infirmary so that they end up stuck together during the episode,

- she didn't wear a Hazmat suit because hello? how do you expect her and Ronon to feel all cosy and to almost kiss, if she was as attractive as a worm in an apple, in that Hazmat suit?


A typical fanfic scenario. I see tons of them in the HP fandom where Hermione gets stuck in class with Draco Malfoy. Exactly the same scenario.

PG15
January 31st, 2008, 07:36 PM
She wasn't the only one in the Infirmary. Watch that scene again and you'll see plenty of people walking around. However, it's just that, at the moment when Quarantine kicked in, it just so happened that Keller and Ronon were the only ones in the room.

magie
February 1st, 2008, 12:20 AM
it just so happened that Keller and Ronon were the only ones in the room.

How... convenient. As I said, that's the MO of any fangirl ficcer, for any fandom.

FallenAngelII
February 1st, 2008, 10:33 AM
Don't you get it? to be stuck with Ronon, of course. Does she have another role than that? so now that you know that she is supposed to be a potential LI for Ronon, everything's clear :

- she was alone in the infirmary so that they end up stuck together during the episode,

- she didn't wear a Hazmat suit because hello? how do you expect her and Ronon to feel all cosy and to almost kiss, if she was as attractive as a worm in an apple, in that Hazmat suit?


A typical fanfic scenario. I see tons of them in the HP fandom where Hermione gets stuck in class with Draco Malfoy. Exactly the same scenario.
See, that's not good enough. You cannot explain away plotholes and illogical actions with "Because the writers wanted it so". The plotholes and illogical actions are still there. And they're still portraying her one way or another.

I mean, plot called for Kolya to be a cold-hearted killer but I guess he's really just a teddy bear who was portrayed the wrong way once or twice because plot called for it?

Ebeneezer_Goode
February 1st, 2008, 10:38 AM
See, that's not good enough. You cannot explain away plotholes and illogical actions with "Because the writers wanted it so". The plotholes and illogical actions are still there. And they're still portraying her one way or another.

I mean, plot called for Kolya to be a cold-hearted killer but I guess he's really just a teddy bear who was portrayed the wrong way once or twice because plot called for it?

If you can't suspend your disbelief for something as trivial as this then I don't know how you can enjoy any TV at all. Scrutinize anything as hard as you are and you'll find plot holes, or at least plot holes by your definition.

ciannwn
February 1st, 2008, 12:36 PM
See, that's not good enough. You cannot explain away plotholes and illogical actions with "Because the writers wanted it so". The plotholes and illogical actions are still there. And they're still portraying her one way or another.

I mean, plot called for Kolya to be a cold-hearted killer but I guess he's really just a teddy bear who was portrayed the wrong way once or twice because plot called for it?

Maybe it's all down to what a character's primary function is supposed to be. Kolya's sole function was to be a cold-hearted killer. If Keller's primary function is to be a cute, loveable young thing who has a romance with Ronon her secondary function as CMO might get pushed aside if it interferes with a plot focussed on her primary function. Characters acting according to plot isn't excusable, though, if it makes them inconsistent or even behave in stupid ways - eg. Sheppard not considering Lucius a possible security risk at the end of 'Irresponsible'.

Maybe questions about hazmat suits could have been avoided if the scriptwriter had mentioned them in passing. There was more than one opportunity to do so.

KELLER: Well, obviously there's a glitch in the programme. Problem is, without communications, he can't tell me how bad the outbreak is or give me the pass codes to open whichever doors are deemed safe.

and

KELLER: OK, look – I don't think we're gonna have any luck opening those doors on our own. We're probably just better off waiting for McKay and the others to figure out what needs to be done and which doors are even safe to open.

DEX: So we're just supposed to sit here and wait?

KELLER: Yes! And be ready at a moment's notice to treat the sick.

A few words on the lines of "What if I need a hazmat suit and can't get to one?" would have told us that she'd considered such a possibility.

Avenger
February 1st, 2008, 12:56 PM
See, that's not good enough. You cannot explain away plotholes and illogical actions with "Because the writers wanted it so". The plotholes and illogical actions are still there. And they're still portraying her one way or another.

I mean, plot called for Kolya to be a cold-hearted killer but I guess he's really just a teddy bear who was portrayed the wrong way once or twice because plot called for it?

Plotholes are one thing, but things that are illogical in the show make the show far more "real". If everything were logical, we'd be watching a bunch of Vulcans walking around. Or, Asurans, if you want something from the SGA universe. Too much logic is boring.