PDA

View Full Version : Illogical Final Battle in "Ark of Truth"? (spoilers for AoT, obviously)



FallenAngelII
January 17th, 2008, 09:30 PM
So, aside from being hilaaaarious because of the rampant lack of finished CGI, wasn't the Final Battle between Adria and Morgan le Fay kinda illogical and plot-holy?

OK, so the CGI isn't done yet but it kinda looks like the two women actually killed each other. We know this can't happen as established by the eternal struggle between Anubis and Oma. Or is that a "special" case because... um... Anubis is only half-Ascended, so he cannot be killed as opposed to a fully Ascended?!

No, precedent states that two Ascended beings fighting will be locked in an eternal battle.

Let's move onto the next plothole (the size of Alaska):
What's up with Morgan le Fay being able to even match Adria in power?!

OK, so the Ark of Truth just stole away most of her powers by turning the Priors in the Ori galaxy, the Doci and possibly the people within hearing range of the Priors against her. Um... OK. So she lost a little bit of power.

But that still leaves the many worlds not currently with a Prior to shout "Stop worshipping them now!", not to mention the many planets converted in the Milky Way! Adria should still have plenty of power or at least enough to overpower Morgan, but Morgan went all "I am [a match for you] now!" and dived straight in... and matched her in power!

So... um... what? Does Morgan have some kind of secret cult of worshippers encompassing a few million because, really, that's how many worshippers Adria should still have left.

xSFx
January 17th, 2008, 10:07 PM
What's up with Morgan le Fay being able to even match Adria in power?!

OK, so the Ark of Truth just stole away most of her powers by turning the Priors in the Ori galaxy, the Doci and possibly the people within hearing range of the Priors against her. Um... OK. So she lost a little bit of power.

But that still leaves the many worlds not currently with a Prior to shout "Stop worshipping them now!"I've read somewhere else on this forum that the Priors work as a router to send all that juice to the Ori.

With the Priors on hold, surely an ancient Ancient who's known to have overpowered even the great Merlin is more than a challenge to a 3 year old brat with an attitude problem.

FallenAngelII
January 17th, 2008, 11:11 PM
I've read somewhere else on this forum that the Priors work as a router to send all that juice to the Ori.
It matters not as the Priors in the Milky Way were still under her spell. I guess one could argue it takes time and a dialed in Supergate to direct all that energy to Adria.


With the Priors on hold, surely an ancient Ancient who's known to have overpowered even the great Merlin is more than a challenge to a 3 year old brat with an attitude problem.
Who ever said she overpowered Merlin? I thought she did it for his protection and that he was pretty on par with it. It doesn't matter how old she is. These are cosmic powers, you can't just randomly train yourself to the equivalent of Ascended Being + 1 million or so worshippers.

xSFx
January 17th, 2008, 11:16 PM
Who ever said she overpowered Merlin? I thought she did it for his protection and that he was pretty on par with it. It doesn't matter how old she is. These are cosmic powers, you can't just randomly train yourself to the equivalent of Ascended Being + 1 million or so worshippers.We can also argue that the converted priors neutralise the power of the unconverted ones still in the Milky Way.

Even if that's not the case, the believers in the Milky Way are still noobs when compared to those in the Ori galaxy who have been worshiping all their lives.

FallenAngelII
January 17th, 2008, 11:39 PM
We can also argue that the converted priors neutralise the power of the unconverted ones still in the Milky Way.
How? I doubt the Doci has powers like that and even if he did, Adria could easily strip him of them should he move against her.


Even if that's not the case, the believers in the Milky Way are still noobs when compared to those in the Ori galaxy who have been worshiping all their lives.
Doesn't matter. It should still give Adria power. How many planets have fallen to the Ori now? And how many worshippers is the Milky Way totaling by now? Hundreds of thousands, at the least.

Anubis vs. Oma. Ancient Ascended Being vs. Half-Ascended Being. Outcome? Eternal stalemate.

One Single Ori being worshipped by hundreds of thousands vs. One Single Ancient with as far as we know zero worshippers = Dead Morgan le Fay.

And you're still forgetting about the part where Anubis told Oma "You can't kill me" to which Oma replied "No, but I can fight you and all you can do is fight back". Of course, it could be argued the Others put in state some kind of mechanism against killing Anubis (for whatever reason) but that would just be stupid.

xSFx
January 17th, 2008, 11:46 PM
Of course, it could be argued the Others put in state some kind of mechanism against killing Anubis (for whatever reason) but that would just be stupid.Remember when Daniel tried to zap anubis with his ascended powers?

I don't think he was aiming for the timeless struggle, that's why he was stopped.

Even if that's not the case, if semi-ascended Anubis is a match for fully ascended Desala, than unworshipped Morgan should be a match for worshipped Adria.


One Single Ori being worshipped by hundreds of thousands vs. One Single Ancient with as far as we know zero worshippers = Dead Morgan le Fay.How much power do you think those fresh worshippers give, anyway?
How many are "true believers" that live and breathe Origin and how many are just converts by label?

Also, you're severely underestimating Morgan LeFey who might also benefit from the power routed through the newly-enlightened Priors (I'm quite sure the Priors had a change of mind concerning the ascended Ancients).

jenks
January 18th, 2008, 12:05 AM
To be it looked similar to what happened to Oma and Anubis, I think they're going to make it look a bit more dramatic though so it's open to interpretation.

Battera
January 18th, 2008, 12:25 AM
Well, Anubis wasn't as powerful as Oma, but she still couldn't kill him. Maybe there wasn't enough of a power difference between them.

Since Adria has yet to convert the entire Milky Way, and many of the followers they converted were forced (and don't really believe), so between her and Morgan there isn't a sufficient power difference.

Hyperwarp
January 18th, 2008, 04:29 AM
It seems people haven't watched it properly........:cameron: .......Listen carefully.....................

Don't want to give away anything since this is not just some episode, its actually a DVD movie..........so I'll keep my lips sealed........

But if admins/mods permit.........I might spit out some.........(under the spoiler tag off-course :) )

xSFx
January 18th, 2008, 04:33 AM
Go ahead! :D

Ebeneezer_Goode
January 18th, 2008, 04:41 AM
It seems people haven't watched it properly........:cameron: .......Listen carefully.....................

Don't want to give away anything since this is not just some episode, its actually a DVD movie..........so I'll keep my lips sealed........

But if admins/mods permit.........I might spit out some.........(under the spoiler tag off-course :) )

Spoilers are allowed, you don't even need tags in this thread.

Calicto
January 18th, 2008, 05:05 AM
PS - I love Stargate and the following opinion expresses my constructive criticism of something I had high expectations for.

Imagine that you're in a running race and you need to win to get money to pay-off the mafia for $10,000 or you and your family will be killed. There is no other way you can do it because you have one day to pay out and no one trusts a former druggie. So, you're practicing running and you break your leg. And then you mom religiously believes that you should not be running in the race or you'll go to hell. She says that if you run, she will never talk to you ever again and probably starve herself to death (because she's that fanatical). But you gotta run. When you get to the race, you realize that all your opponents are cheetahs. But when you run, you start beating these 70 mph animals, until you get shot up a million times. But as you fall, you land on a box that mysteriously has $10,000 in it, heals you completely, makes your mom see the light, turns all the mafia guys into a b-boying dance team and brings peace to the universe.

See the box in the story? That's the ending of AOT. You have a kickass scenario which is hard to solve, but instead of thinking of a creative way to solve it, you use the box.

fallenexile452
January 18th, 2008, 11:53 AM
This is just an extrapolation based on what we see on screen but the subspace link doesn't work over such large distances, evidence being that they had to use the arc a second time in the MW to disable the priors there. This being the case and the fact that the power from the worshipers in the ori galaxy was no longer reaching her would mean that she is just a normal ascended being. Morgan in that case would be able to battle her. Another thing to note is that there must be a way for ascending beings to destroy each other, do you really think that the ori would want to enter into eternal battle with the ancients. instead they would want to rule over their believers, meaning a way to defeat them exists.

1LostFurling
January 18th, 2008, 01:47 PM
Remember when Daniel tried to zap anubis with his ascended powers?

I don't think he was aiming for the timeless struggle, that's why he was stopped.

Yes, true, I have wondered about that too. I believe that Daniel was attempting to strike down Anubis' corporeal self (the energy contained within his personal shield) rather than his ascended side. It always seemed to me that Anubis had two sides and that while they both were under the control of Anubis' consciouness, each could act on each's respective plane of existance.

I think that Daniel was trying to destroy Anubis' corporeal side leaving only the ascended portion which could not act on the corporeal level without drawing the wrath of the Others.

As for the original post in this thread...I think AOT has major major issues. A big part of me wants to believe that this was no accidental/malicious release. I want to believe this is somehow a "fake" done by TPTB to throw off downloaders. Such a theory is semi-supported by the fact that post-production of these movies is taking significantly longer than originally thought.

However, I know that there is no way financially possible that the studio could afford to make a whole "fake" film just to protect the real film.

That leaves me forced to assume that the leaked version is "real". That for me is a problem. I am happy to see SG-1 carry-on, but not at the cost of foolish writing.

At this point I am hanging my hat on Continium...

Hyperwarp
January 18th, 2008, 09:21 PM
My criticism.......


Its not the Adria Vs. Morgan arc! Even my brain can decipher that if I pay close attention. Anyone should be able to! Just listen carefully! And the Ori arc had some lovely scenes, music and some of the acting was great! My problem was with the IOA arc! IOA arc moved the movie in to direction I am very familiar with (If you know what I am saying ;)). That was disappointing! I would have preferred a much more unfamiliar route. Something new! Really new!


Off-course for a low budget movie, I think I am fairly satisfied. But for the writer(s) who came up with SG-1 episodes like "The Torment of Tantalus", "The Fifth Race", "Heroes (2)", "Lost City (2)" as well as Ori specific episodes like "Avalon (2)", "Origin", "Crusade", "Unending" and many more, AoT is not miraculous. I am a die-hard SG-1 fan. Certainly going to buy the DVD. I mean certainly "AoT" not crap or anything like that, but just not up to the level of some SG-1 greats. (Off-course considering some of the absolute trash high-budget hollywood stuff. I mean *cough* Alien Vs Predator 2 Requiem *Cough* :S.......... AoT is a gem! :cameron:)

xSFx
January 19th, 2008, 01:20 AM
AoT > AvP.R !

dzineguy84
January 19th, 2008, 02:09 AM
Stupid thought ... but maybe for once, the others stepped in to help and were backing up Morgan? When she said, *I am now* I was expecting this massive collective of ascended beings to descend and kick Adria's ass. This obviously didn't happen, but maybe somehow the others were helping for once on a level we'll never know about?

Just a random, stupid thought ...

FallenAngelII
January 19th, 2008, 03:51 PM
Remember when Daniel tried to zap anubis with his ascended powers?

I don't think he was aiming for the timeless struggle, that's why he was stopped.

Even if that's not the case, if semi-ascended Anubis is a match for fully ascended Desala, than unworshipped Morgan should be a match for worshipped Adria.
Daniel was far from all-knowing about what Anubis was. He didn't know why the Others didn't fully descend him and whatever. For all we know, he could'e thought that he had the power to kill Anubis all the while he didn't.

Daniel was whisked away because he was just about to interfere with the mortal plane. Oma could do what she did because Anubis was currently in the Ascended plane (or one of them).


How much power do you think those fresh worshippers give, anyway?
How many are "true believers" that live and breathe Origin and how many are just converts by label?

Also, you're severely underestimating Morgan LeFey who might also benefit from the power routed through the newly-enlightened Priors (I'm quite sure the Priors had a change of mind concerning the ascended Ancients).
1) More than Morgan's source of power (zero worshippers). Not to mention the hordes of Ori warriors on those Ori warships who were still loyal to her.
2) The Priors didn't randomly start worshipping yet more false gods after learning the truth about the Ori. That would be stupid. For another, how would they even know about the Ancients? Also, the power would be greatly diluted into the Ancient mainframe (as stated in the movie) since there are more than 1 Ascended non-Ori (Adria). Adria, however, gets all of the power she zaps from her worshippers. Morgan le Fay would need a whole great number of people worshipping her personally and not just the Ancienst in general.


This is just an extrapolation based on what we see on screen but the subspace link doesn't work over such large distances, evidence being that they had to use the arc a second time in the MW to disable the priors there. This being the case and the fact that the power from the worshipers in the ori galaxy was no longer reaching her would mean that she is just a normal ascended being. Morgan in that case would be able to battle her. Another thing to note is that there must be a way for ascending beings to destroy each other, do you really think that the ori would want to enter into eternal battle with the ancients. instead they would want to rule over their believers, meaning a way to defeat them exists.
She should still be received some power from the Ori galaxy worshippers. I mean, what about all of the worshippers who were not currently in the vicinity of a Prior shouting at the top of his lungs for people to stop worshipping them? And I doubt they were all shouting it, some were probably standing around crying to themselves and breaking down emotionally for what they had done, like the Doci.

Someone wrote that he'd read somewhere on the forum that the Priors work as a router for all of that worshippy energy, but that was probably just fan speculation.

Hyperwarp
January 19th, 2008, 08:47 PM
Ok, this annoying!

So........here's a little tit-bit.....

Vala & Adria

Adria: You'll be somewhat satisfied to know that Merlins weapon DID work! The Ori WERE destroyed!
Vala: Really!
Adria: Somehow you and your simple human friends managed destroy quite a large group of very powerful Ascended Beings!
Vala: Well, we are always a very determined bunch; I always say you can never know what you can do until you try!
Adria: I AGREE!
Vala: You don't seem to cut-up about it!
Adria: NO! The energy transferred to the Ori by their human followers used to be spread out among many! No that I have ascended, I get it ALL!

So, All Ori dead! Only Ori left is Adria, she ascended after they were destroyed. She is just ONE Ascended Ori compared to many before, but she gets all the power of their human followers instead of having only a piece of the cake. And actually makes her far more arrogant! Power does corrupt! :D


Later On...
Morgan & Daniel (who's badly tortured)

.
.
.
Daniel: Then help us! (in agony :()
Morgan: I've done all I can....
Daniel: NO! You can do more! You can do much more and you have to!
Morgan: Not on my own! She is too powerful for me...
Daniel: She?!....(Daniel rests his head on the floor)....You mean Adria don't you?
Morgan: She took on the mantel of the Ori...
Daniel: Yeeeah, I was afraid of that...
Morgan: She has their collective power....
Daniel: Theeen...take it away from from her.....and not just for OUR sakes....
Morgan: I've distracted her, I've helped you when you needed me, I promise you Daniel I've done ALL I can.....
Daniel: NOOOOOOO.....!!!!
Morgan: You need to use the Ark only on ONE prior! The Crystals in their staffs are linked to one another, its how the Doci communicates with all at once. If you can turn just ONE of them, Adria's power will be greatly diminished!
Daniel: How? HOOOW?!
Morgan disappears!


Want more?!!! :cameron:

g.o.d
January 20th, 2008, 01:55 AM
And actually makes her far more arrogant! Power does corrupt! :D[/I]
[/SPOILERS]


I would say more idiotic and naive

Hyperwarp
January 20th, 2008, 03:15 AM
I would say more idiotic and naive

True......She was looking at herself as the future "ONE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD (or goddess)".......

knowles2
January 20th, 2008, 03:44 AM
Well I hope that in the final cut of the movie, their was few scene to long and the some of the special effects was not completed,

I hope they give more hints that the others are letting Morgan La fray a little le way in the rules (or given her permission to intervene in the way she did ) and just this once they gonna let her intervene, plus a little hint or two that other ancients are gonna back her up in the fight. This would would only tack a extra 30s or a minute scene and I would of thought it would not cost that much either.

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 05:43 AM
Ok, this annoying!

Morgan: You need to use the Ark only on ONE prior! The Crystals in their staffs are linked to one another, its how the Doci communicates with all at once. If you can turn just ONE of them, Adria's power will be greatly diminished!
Daniel: How? HOOOW?!
Morgan disappears!

Want more?!!! :cameron:
I agree, it is annoying. What Morgan said was that Adria's power would be greatly diminished, not nullified. This is canonical evidence for that just by turning the Priors in the Ori galaxy and the Doci, not all of Adria's power was taken away.

Hence, she still should have more power than a lone rogue Ancient (who was banished and who was still toeing the line in how much she could interfere) unless said Ancient had a ton of worshippers who worshipped her personally.

Also, to whoever said that Ascended beings should be able to kill each other, I'n not saying that's not true. I'm saying that in Threads, Oma and Anubis set the precedent that Ascended beings of equal strength will be forever locked in a stalemate, not that they would destroy each other... unless for whatever reason, the Others put in state a mechanism that made it impossible to kill Anubis (but that would be stupid) and Oma was far, far, far stronger than him, making it impossible for both of them to kill each other.

Hyperwarp
January 20th, 2008, 07:03 AM
Also, to whoever said that Ascended beings should be able to kill each other, I'n not saying that's not true.

If ascended beings are unable to kill each other, how on earth (errrr....in this universe) were the Ori going to destroy the ancients? Eh? We found out they were coming to destroy the ancients in S09:E11 thanx to Oril (Long before Merlins weapon came into the picture).


I'm saying that in Threads, Oma and Anubis set the precedent that Ascended beings of equal strength will be forever locked in a stalemate, not that they would destroy each other... unless for whatever reason, the Others put in state a mechanism that made it impossible to kill Anubis (but that would be stupid) and Oma was far, far, far stronger than him, making it impossible for both of them to kill each other.

Where did this come from? Ok, Let me see...Let go back "Threads"


OMA: No. He must have found some old, Ancient research on ascension. When he came to Kheb he knew what he was doing. When I realised the horrible mistake that I had made I tried to undo it, but I couldn't. That's when the Others stepped in.
.
.

OMA: They warned him. He wasn't allowed to use any knowledge or power, unless he otherwise would have gained it as a Goa'uld.
.
.
Later on...........
.
.
JIM: There's nothing you can do. You don't have the power.
OMA: But I do.
JIM: You can't kill me either.
OMA: I can fight you.
JIM: Well, you can't win.
OMA: It won't matter, you won't be able to do anything but fight me back.
JIM: What are you going to do?
OMA: Something I should have done a long time ago.
JIM: Oh no, no. No!

[As Oma walks towards him she raises her hands. Jim raises his also, and as the touch they are both engulfed in bright light. The light forms into a ball which disappears through the ceiling. The Others are watching, in as much shock as Daniel. Daniel walks to the place where Oma and Jim were standing, and looks around in confusion.]


Errrr..............ok......Now, what exactly happened? Gosh Oma was tricked by a Goa'uld! :eek::eek: Thats embarrassing! :cameron::cameron:


I agree, it is annoying. What Morgan said was that Adria's power would be greatly diminished, not nullified. This is canonical evidence for that just by turning the Priors in the Ori galaxy and the Doci, not all of Adria's power was taken away.

Ahhhh......... well could be because she still has some followers in the milky-way! So not all her powers. In the Ori galaxy, they didn't convert a prior! They scored a direct hit on the "DORCI" in the City of Celestis! Beam went right above Celestis! :cameron: Many (if not everyone) in the Ori galaxy practically froze! Priors and ordinary people! :cameron: Adria just lost a boatload of her power. And she was whining like a little girl. You should have seen her reaction! Typical Ori! :p

And people., give me a clear answer to this.........

Who on earth said Ascended beings are of equal power? Is there such a rule? Would be a pretty dumb rule. Ascended beings are certainly not all knowing all powerful. Is there any rule which says they are equal in knowledge? Their understanding of the infinite universe is the same? The powers they can come up with are the same? They are "BEINGS" after all. They are not physical beings like us but energy based beings (The first ones of Babylon 5 are energy based beings. They have gone beyond their physical bodies. Vorlons for example). Don't see why some ascended beings would be more powerful or at least have a better understanding of the universe than the others. Merlin managed to cheat many rules and keep ascended knowledge even as a human and used that knowledge to create a weapon which could have wiped all ascended being from existence (S10:E03). It simply could be the case that Morgan was a very powerful one or Adria a very weak/naive/swollen-headed etc etc one or both. We see from the ascended beings we have had contact with that they have different opinions amoung themselves. They are not like identical robots from an assembly line (Even assembly line stuff have defects ;) ).

Sooo.............is their a rule that says, "ALL ASCENDED BEINGS ANCIENT/ORI/Other MUST BE EQUAL".....??????

knowles2
January 20th, 2008, 08:51 AM
As I say they should simply change the ending so that when Morgan turns a energy ball we see other energy balls join her in the fight. Then Daniel should say something on the line of look like the others final got of their arses into gear and helped out for a change.

This would solve all the problems, she get beats because even can not fight multiple ancients at once.

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 09:06 AM
Where did this come from? Ok, Let me see...Let go back "Threads"

JIM: You can't kill me either.
OMA: I can fight you.
JIM: Well, you can't win.
OMA: It won't matter, you won't be able to do anything but fight me back.

Errrr..............ok......Now, what exactly happened? Gosh Oma was tricked by a Goa'uld! :eek::eek: Thats embarrassing! :cameron::cameron:
What just happened? It was just established that Oma and Anubis can't kill each other but only fight each other to a stalemate.

This is why the Ori were amassing power, in order to be able to overcome the Ancients who did not have people worshipping them. Please read your own quotes before trying to use them to boast your arguments.



Ahhhh......... well could be because she still has some followers in the milky-way! So not all her powers. In the Ori galaxy, they didn't convert a prior! They scored a direct hit on the "DORCI" in the City of Celestis! Beam went right above Celestis! :cameron: Many (if not everyone) in the Ori galaxy practically froze! Priors and ordinary people! :cameron: Adria just lost a boatload of her power. And she was whining like a little girl. You should have seen her reaction! Typical Ori! :p
Doci you mean? So what if they hit the Doci? It's not like he could work against Adria and prevent her from gaining the energy her worshippers (no, the galaxy did not freeze up, the worshippers did not freeze and there was not a Prior on every planet ready to shout at the top of his lungs for the worshippers to immediately stop worshipping the Ori. Additionally, even if there were, not all of the worshippers would hear them because some of them would be out of earshot and yet others might assume the Priors have just gone mad.

She lost a boatload of her power, and? She should still have had a partial boatload of power vs. (as far as we know) Morgan's zilch.



Who on earth said Ascended beings are of equal power? Is there such a rule? Would be a pretty dumb rule. Ascended beings are certainly not all knowing all powerful. Is there any rule which says they are equal in knowledge? Their understanding of the infinite universe is the same? The powers they can come up with are the same? They are "BEINGS" after all. They are not physical beings like us but energy based beings (The first ones of Babylon 5 are energy based beings. They have gone beyond their physical bodies. Vorlons for example). Don't see why some ascended beings would be more powerful or at least have a better understanding of the universe than the others. Merlin managed to cheat many rules and keep ascended knowledge even as a human and used that knowledge to create a weapon which could have wiped all ascended being from existence (S10:E03). It simply could be the case that Morgan was a very powerful one or Adria a very weak/naive/swollen-headed etc etc one or both. We see from the ascended beings we have had contact with that they have different opinions amoung themselves. They are not like identical robots from an assembly line (Even assembly line stuff have defects ;) ).
Because Oma, a really, really old Ancient who'd been around for a veeeeery long time could only fight Anubis to a stalement? How do you suggest they would get more powerful? By amassing more knowledge? Since when does knowledge boast your Ascended powers?



Sooo.............is their a rule that says, "ALL ASCENDED BEINGS ANCIENT/ORI/Other MUST BE EQUAL".....??????
No, but there's clearly one that says "Ascended beings with worshippers feeding them energy = Much more powerful than Ascended beings without". Adria was preparing to, on her own, kill every single Ascended being in the Milky Way. Which means that at her full strength, the collective forces of the Ascended collective of the Milky Way was no match for her (the Ancients, the Others, other Ascended beings, Ska'ara, Yusuf and their friends).

Losing a great deal of her power would make her unable to take on the Milky Way Ascendants but it shouldn't mean that Morgan should be able to fight her without losing badly.

Also, there's still huge plothole where they both seem to destroy each other. If one were stronger, she should've killed the other and survived. If they were both of equal strength, they should've both have just fought each other to an eternal stalemate (like Oma and Anubis).

xSFx
January 20th, 2008, 10:16 AM
Also, there's still huge plothole where they both seem to destroy each other.Oh, you mean that animation that looked like it was made in Photoshop and was only meant as a filler?

Hyperwarp
January 20th, 2008, 10:51 AM
What just happened? It was just established that Oma and Anubis can't kill each other but only fight each other to a

Yeah! And???


This is why the Ori were amassing power, in order to be able to overcome the Ancients who did not have people worshipping them. Please read your own quotes before trying to use them to boast your arguments.

WOW! Really? Where did that come from? So, according you there are equal number of ancients and Ori with equal power hence thats why Ori need to drain power from humans, so the added power can be used to destroy the ancients? LOL! You want me to start throwing out 1 or 2 alternatives to that? :D


Doci you mean? So what if they hit the Doci? It's not like he could work against Adria and prevent her from gaining the energy her worshippers (no, the galaxy did not freeze up, the worshippers did not freeze and there was not a Prior on every planet ready to shout at the top of his lungs for the worshippers to immediately stop worshipping the Ori. Additionally, even if there were, not all of the worshippers would hear them because some of them would be out of earshot and yet others might assume the Priors have just gone mad.

Who said whether the Doci or priors need do anything against adria? (Well at least not physically). Whole Idea is to change peoples MINDS. To show what is true! The Ori are not "GODS". Once they become un-believers, once they saw the real-light, thats it. No more belief/faith! Their MINDS have changed.

About the Galaxy freezing up, well if you don't like the word "freeze", I'll give you "stood firm"! Priors including one in the ship and normal people around just started to stare at the glowing staff................they certainly looked motionless.

Don't get a prior on every planet? Eh? How do you know that? Makers of AoT, as well as the TV episodes can't show every single human in the Ori galaxy seeing the light near a prior! Well I guess they could have, if they were more creative.

Eh? Who said the Priors had to shout their lungs out to get the message across? Who said they had to say a single word! Non of the priors had their lips moving when the Ark was activated..... The Doci did not utter a single anti-ori word while Adria was there! So ummm............ if they were going change them verbally then, yikes that would have taken ages :D :D. Extremely inefficient... Thats why they have to essentially "WASH" their brains.

Oh yes! Adria lost ALLOT of power (probably the only exception are the Milky-way ones)

Adria: NOOOO! You can't take away my power!
Vala: I think....we just did!
Adria: You'll all burn in the fires of eternal damnation!
Morgan: Not if I have anything to do with it.....
Adria: You are no match for me....
Morgan: I AM now......

Hmmmm.............wonder why mighty adria looks so worried.... :D


Because Oma, a really, really old Ancient who'd been around for a veeeeery long time could only fight Anubis to a stalement? How do you suggest they would get more powerful? By amassing more knowledge? Since when does knowledge boast your Ascended powers?

And??? Unable to kill Anubis and really, really old does not mean anything. You could be really stupid (or something similar) and despite being really, really, old you are still unable to surpass ability understand the universe like newer ones. OR she was allowed only to go up to a stalemate because of the rules imposed on her when Oma herself ascended and not because she couldn't actually kill him.

Since when does knowledge boast your Ascended powers? WHAT!!!! :eek: Excuse me! How many times have we heard "KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!". One can use great knowledge and understanding to be more powerful.....



No, but there's clearly one that says "Ascended beings with worshippers feeding them energy = Much more powerful than Ascended beings without". Adria was preparing to, on her own, kill every single Ascended being in the Milky Way. Which means that at her full strength, the collective forces of the Ascended collective of the Milky Way was no match for her (the Ancients, the Others, other Ascended beings, Ska'ara, Yusuf and their friends).


Yeah! Off-course! When humans worship Ascended beings they become powerful. Yes, Adria and her Ori predecessors wanted to destroy the ancients. But, still they needed the Milky-Way. Otherwise they would have gone at them long ago. Orlin made that clear. Adria's situation maybe no different all. She needs more power and the best place is the milky-way, especially earth with close to 7 billion humans. She never said when she would destroy the ancients.


Losing a great deal of her power would make her unable to take on the Milky Way Ascendants but it shouldn't mean that Morgan should be able to fight her without losing badly.


Who said she didn't lose badly?



Also, there's still huge plothole where they both seem to destroy each other. If one were stronger, she should've killed the other and survived. If they were both of equal strength, they should've both have just fought each other to an eternal stalemate (like Oma and Anubis).


Wait in the previous quote I thought you said Morgan didn't lose badly? Anyway, this not like, let me seee..........

Morgan = 5
Adria = 4 + 1000000000000000000000000 (thanx to human power)
Ark activates. Adria loses most of the humans power therefore,
Adria = 4 + 0.01
Morgan Vs. Adria show down
5 - 4 + 0.01
After the battle a 0.99 of Morgan left..... :D

Is that what your are saying?

Remember, Morgan does not necessarily need to be stronger. Just even close maybe enough. They could have killed each other. Is Morgan, as an ancient, as one of the good guys unable to sacrifice herself? You don't need to be equal in power to achieve mutually assured destruction........

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 11:15 AM
xSFX: That's why I said "seems".



WOW! Really? Where did that come from? So, according you there are equal number of ancients and Ori with equal power hence thats why Ori need to drain power from humans, so the added power can be used to destroy the ancients? LOL! You want me to start throwing out 1 or 2 alternatives to that? :D
Way to distort people's words into something completely different. What I said was that the Ori were amassing power because without worshippers, they couldn't kill the Ancients (and their friends). However, a single entity, Adria, would be able to with all of the power she was getting. Which means that numbers mean nothing if the smaller army has enough power.


Who said whether the Doci or priors need do anything against adria? (Well at least not physically). Whole Idea is to change peoples MINDS. To show what is true! The Ori are not "GODS". Once they become un-believers, once they saw the real-light, thats it. No more belief/faith! Their MINDS have changed.
Who cares if the minds of the Priors and the Doci have changed? They cannot force people to believe what they believe (at the very least there's been nothing to show tha tthey're capable of doing it). Hence, the people not within earshot of Priors would still be worshipping the Ori (Adria).

About the Galaxy freezing up, well if you don't like the word "freeze", I'll give you "stood firm"! Priors including one in the ship and normal people around just started to stare at the glowing staff................they certainly looked motionless. [/quote]
Yes, because you'd probably just go about your day should a mighty and freared weapon such as a Prior staff light up in front of you. Normal humans are not connected to the Prior information highway. They were just staring in awe.


Don't get a prior on every planet? Eh? How do you know that? Makers of AoT, as well as the TV episodes can't show every single human in the Ori galaxy seeing the light near a prior! Well I guess they could have, if they were more creative.
Because when Daniel and Vala were on that one planet in "Origin", the Prior disappeared from public view often. Also, a lot of Priors were currently walking around in the Milky Way and piloting ships. Maybe they do have a Prior on every planet. It would not matter. "Origin" showed us that there weren't tons of them running around every single planet.

Even if there were, say, one Prior on every planet, their shouting can only carry the sounds of their voices so far. Not everyone on every planet would even be able to hear their pleas for people to stop worshipping Adria. Not to mention the few (many?) who would react like the Doci, drop to his knees and cry.


Eh? Who said the Priors had to shout their lungs out to get the message across? Who said they had to say a single word! Non of the priors had their lips moving when the Ark was activated..... The Doci did not utter a single anti-ori word while Adria was there! So ummm............ if they were going change them verbally then, yikes that would have taken ages :D :D. Extremely inefficient... Thats why they have to essentially "WASH" their brains.
Yeah, the brains of the Priors and the Doci. The Priors, however, do not have the power to brainwash followers (as it's against Origin to brainwash people into believing in it... you have to do it the old fashioned way).

It doesn't matter if a whole bunch of Priors and the Doci stopped believing in Adria. There would still be followers.


Oh yes! Adria lost ALLOT of power (probably the only exception are the Milky-way ones)
A lot =/= All.


Since when does knowledge boast your Ascended powers? WHAT!!!! :eek: Excuse me! How many times have we heard "KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!". One can use great knowledge and understanding to be more powerful.....
How many times have we heard that used by Ascended beings? Stop making up things and assuming they're true because "you say so".


Yeah! Off-course! When humans worship Ascended beings they become powerful. Yes, Adria and her Ori predecessors wanted to destroy the ancients. But, still they needed the Milky-Way. Otherwise they would have gone at them long ago. Orlin made that clear. Adria's situation maybe no different all. She needs more power and the best place is the milky-way, especially earth with close to 7 billion humans. She never said when she would destroy the ancients.
She never did? What about when Vala talked about it and tried to talk her out of it and she said that she would personally kill them all? And this has nothing to do with what we're talking about, really. I only brought the "I'm going to destroy the Ancients!" to show how powerful a single Ascended being being fed the entire massive power of the Ori followers is.


Who said she didn't lose badly?
Because both lights went out, not just one. And Adria disappeared and the Ori storyline is wrapped up after "Ark of Truth", so Morgan couldn't have lost.


Wait in the previous quote I thought you said Morgan didn't lose badly? Anyway, this not like, let me seee..........
See, there you go making stuff up again. Since when does "Morgan should've lost badly" equal "Morgan won!"?


Morgan = 5
Adria = 4 + 1000000000000000000000000 (thanx to human power)
Ark activates. Adria loses most of the humans power therefore,
Adria = 4 + 0.01
Morgan Vs. Adria show down
5 - 4 + 0.01
After the battle a 0.99 of Morgan left..... :D
Based on your ludicrous assumptions.


Remember, Morgan does not necessarily need to be stronger. Just even close maybe enough. They could have killed each other. Is Morgan, as an ancient, as one of the good guys unable to sacrifice herself? You don't need to be equal in power to achieve mutually assured destruction........
The problem would still be "How did Morgan become strong enough to be at least close to as strong as Adria while she's powered by the few remanining Ori believers"? That's where the problem lies.

Homeslice55
January 20th, 2008, 11:25 AM
The Milky Way Ancients don't have people worshipping them. Perhaps the Pegasus Ancients do. I have no evidence to support this, but many worlds do hold the "ancestors" in high regard. Even if they don't use the power, perhaps they still receive it. And we don't what relationship those ascended beings have. Just a thought.

FallenAngelII
January 20th, 2008, 11:35 AM
The Milky Way Ancients don't have people worshipping them. Perhaps the Pegasus Ancients do. I have no evidence to support this, but many worlds do hold the "ancestors" in high regard. Even if they don't use the power, perhaps they still receive it. And we don't what relationship those ascended beings have. Just a thought.
They do not worship them, that's the key difference. Also, I believe the energy has to be forcefully sapped, not that it automatically goes to them. But this is all speculation. We could speculate that in the final cut, Morgan is going to ride in on a pink unicorn and let it fight Adria.

Also, IIRC, Morgan is a Milky Way Ancient. She just traveled to Pegasus to distract SG-1.

ColCaldwell
January 20th, 2008, 12:10 PM
All I know is if Continuum is as horrid as AoT, bye bye SG-1 Movies.

Ladyinred
January 20th, 2008, 12:19 PM
All I know is if Continuum is as horrid as AoT, bye bye SG-1 Movies.

Again, NO PROOF to your statement.

MOSHGUIN1113
January 20th, 2008, 01:25 PM
Ancients may have sensed the Ori are weak and decided to end their war ,with ancended ancient investing all their energy in Le Fay to fight Adria. Good film? I haven't seen it. Just a suggestion

BloomGate
January 20th, 2008, 04:41 PM
They do not worship them, that's the key difference. Also, I believe the energy has to be forcefully sapped, not that it automatically goes to them. But this is all speculation. We could speculate that in the final cut, Morgan is going to ride in on a pink unicorn and let it fight Adria.

Also, IIRC, Morgan is a Milky Way Ancient. She just traveled to Pegasus to distract SG-1.

Ok FA2, since you seem to be the person with all the answers, I've got a few questions:

1. How does the "power" get transferred from Ori worshipers to the Ori? Does it only happen during prostration, and if not, then why do they make them do that?

2. What specifically are the roles of the Doci and Priors? If their only roles are as "prophets", then what's the point of the Doci?

3. What specific functions do the Prior staffs have?

4. Is there a geographical significance for ascended beings? Why did Merlin's weapon only wipe out the Ori in their galaxy, and why did they have to show the Ark to a prior in our galaxy as well?

Jarnin
January 20th, 2008, 08:19 PM
Ok FA2, since you seem to be the person with all the answers, I've got a few questions:
I'll give it a try.


1. How does the "power" get transferred from Ori worshipers to the Ori? Does it only happen during prostration, and if not, then why do they make them do that?
In some metaphysical, supernatural way. In other words, they never explained it in the show.


2. What specifically are the roles of the Doci and Priors? If their only roles are as "prophets", then what's the point of the Doci?
The Ori speak directly to the Doci, who is the leader of their religion. The Doci spreads the will of the Ori using the lesser priests who are the Priors.


3. What specific functions do the Prior staffs have?
It's their link to whatever power the Ori give them. Without their staffs they're just advanced humans with telekinetic abilities.


4. Is there a geographical significance for ascended beings? Why did Merlin's weapon only wipe out the Ori in their galaxy, and why did they have to show the Ark to a prior in our galaxy as well?
The Ori existed as a wall of fire in Celestis, so they were geographically located in normal spacetime, not some "higher plane of existence" (whatever that means). Sending the weapon to their galaxy in normal space disrupted them, effectively taking them out of the equation.
As for the Ark, it seems that the Ori, once in the Milky Way, were cut off from their home galaxy and the Doci, due to the ancients "shielding" the Ori from this galaxy. In order for the "Truth" to get around here, they had to bring the Ark to Earth and show a Prior in this galaxy.

Alterran1.
January 21st, 2008, 03:49 AM
It is possible that once the Ori came to our galaxy they were cut off however I find this highly unlikely.

Ancients possessed technology capable of linking all the way to the Ori galaxy and back. How Daniel and Vala first arrived at the Ori galaxy.

I believe that once a single Ori Prior saw the Ark that all Priors in both galaxies stopped believing in the Ori.

Now the reasonn they had to use the Ark in our galaxy I believe was because the Prior in our galaxy
A: Didn't have his staff with him so no link
B: Had no way of being linked with his staff due to our anti prior device keeping him powerless.

At least it would make sense why they had to show him the ark.

Not to forget that through the staff one of the priors was able to take his consciousness and Gareks to the city of Celestis again he uses his staff to achieve this.

FallenAngelII
January 21st, 2008, 07:54 AM
Ok FA2, since you seem to be the person with all the answers, I've got a few questions:

1. How does the "power" get transferred from Ori worshipers to the Ori? Does it only happen during prostration, and if not, then why do they make them do that?
It's never been explained. As far as I know, no writer has even answered that question in interviews. I could claim they do it through invisible pink unicorns and it's e as credible as any other theory as there's nothing to substantiate any theory regarding this matter.


2. What specifically are the roles of the Doci and Priors? If their only roles are as "prophets", then what's the point of the Doci?
The Doci is the direct link to the Ori/Adria. The Doci is then in turn directly linked to the Priors (through their staffs). That is all that we know.


3. What specific functions do the Prior staffs have?
As revealed by Morgan le Fay, they're "sub-space communicator"-like devices that link the Prior to the Doci. Also, they're intricate pieces of highly advanced technology that enable the Priors to do a lot of the stuff they do.


4. Is there a geographical significance for ascended beings? Why did Merlin's weapon only wipe out the Ori in their galaxy, and why did they have to show the Ark to a prior in our galaxy as well?
Yes, there is. Remember how in "Sanctuary", Chaya didn't just disappear but had to go through the gate (in a Jumper no less) in order to reach her homeworld? Even Ascended beings are limited somewhat by geographical distance. Or when Orlin stated "The minute [that Prior] stepped into [the Milky Way], his life was like an open book to [Orlin]", though this could be explained by Orlin being too lazy to keep track of the Priors until they stepped through to our galaxy.

The Ark had to be used in the Milky Way as well because (I'm speculating) the Priors staffs have a limited range.

FallenAngelII
January 21st, 2008, 08:00 AM
Ancients possessed technology capable of linking all the way to the Ori galaxy and back. How Daniel and Vala first arrived at the Ori galaxy.
So? Said device most probably took a lot of power to operate. Anything is possible with a ZPM-like power source.


I believe that once a single Ori Prior saw the Ark that all Priors in both galaxies stopped believing in the Ori.

Now the reasonn they had to use the Ark in our galaxy I believe was because the Prior in our galaxy
A: Didn't have his staff with him so no link
B: Had no way of being linked with his staff due to our anti prior device keeping him powerless.

At least it would make sense why they had to show him the ark.
This theory falls because of the fact that they gave him back his staff before showing him the Ark. Why risk him going berserk and killing them all if he was the last Prior not yet "turned"? Why give him back his staff? To establish a connection with the rest of the Priors in the Milky Way. However, this is merely speculation.

Mister Oragahn
January 22nd, 2008, 11:39 AM
So, aside from being hilaaaarious because of the rampant lack of finished CGI, wasn't the Final Battle between Adria and Morgan le Fay kinda illogical and plot-holy?

OK, so the CGI isn't done yet but it kinda looks like the two women actually killed each other. We know this can't happen as established by the eternal struggle between Anubis and Oma. Or is that a "special" case because... um... Anubis is only half-Ascended, so he cannot be killed as opposed to a fully Ascended?!

No, precedent states that two Ascended beings fighting will be locked in an eternal battle.

Let's move onto the next plothole (the size of Alaska):
What's up with Morgan le Fay being able to even match Adria in power?!

OK, so the Ark of Truth just stole away most of her powers by turning the Priors in the Ori galaxy, the Doci and possibly the people within hearing range of the Priors against her. Um... OK. So she lost a little bit of power.

But that still leaves the many worlds not currently with a Prior to shout "Stop worshipping them now!", not to mention the many planets converted in the Milky Way! Adria should still have plenty of power or at least enough to overpower Morgan, but Morgan went all "I am [a match for you] now!" and dived straight in... and matched her in power!

So... um... what? Does Morgan have some kind of secret cult of worshippers encompassing a few million because, really, that's how many worshippers Adria should still have left.

Enjoy the rain of ghey excuses by fanboys who gulp that script like it was a golden shower.

flameling
January 22nd, 2008, 12:37 PM
If you are arguing of Morgan and Adria, Then why was Oma able to match anubis in eternal combat when he previously had the giant army of Jaffa and Kull warriors? It was because he had lost MOST of his power and Oma could match him. It is the same with Adria and Morgan.

xSFx
January 22nd, 2008, 12:47 PM
If you are arguing of Morgan and Adria, Then why was Oma able to match anubis in eternal combat when he previously had the giant army of Jaffa and Kull warriors? It was because he had lost MOST of his power and Oma could match him. It is the same with Adria and Morgan.The point was that the worshippers were giving the ascended beings power on the higher plane.

Nothing like that was mentioned in the case of Anubis.

FallenAngelII
January 22nd, 2008, 11:01 PM
If you are arguing of Morgan and Adria, Then why was Oma able to match anubis in eternal combat when he previously had the giant army of Jaffa and Kull warriors? It was because he had lost MOST of his power and Oma could match him. It is the same with Adria and Morgan.
The Others aren't idiots. They wouldn't give Anubis the means to kill other Ascended beings by allowing him to become a Milky Way Ori (they probably have, you know, rules against that).

Dev Corvin
January 23rd, 2008, 05:40 AM
The followers in the Milky Way weren't transferring power to the Ori, as a division exists between the galaxies. The whole point of converting the Milky Way was so that the Ori could travel to the Milky Way and have access to that power in order to defeat the Ancients.

It was made clear that a division exists between the galaxy twice; firstly, when Orlin said that "as soon as you stepped foot in this galaxy your life was an open book to me", to the Prior, and secondly when it was shown that the Priors in the Milky Way weren't converted by the Ark, despite all of the crystals being linked (again, within the same galaxy only).

FallenAngelII
January 24th, 2008, 12:30 AM
The followers in the Milky Way weren't transferring power to the Ori, as a division exists between the galaxies. The whole point of converting the Milky Way was so that the Ori could travel to the Milky Way and have access to that power in order to defeat the Ancients.
Even if this were true, not all followers automatically stopped worshipping the Ori the minute the Ark went off. Because the followers themselves were not connected to the Doci. People argue that the the Ori zap power through the Priors, though, but that's speculation.


It was made clear that a division exists between the galaxy twice; firstly, when Orlin said that "as soon as you stepped foot in this galaxy your life was an open book to me", to the Prior, and secondly when it was shown that the Priors in the Milky Way weren't converted by the Ark, despite all of the crystals being linked (again, within the same galaxy only).
If there's a division, why did the Ancients have to shield the Milky Way from the Ori? Did the Ori randomly wander around into the Milky Way occasionally whereupon the Ancients would create the illusion that the Milky Way was a dead galaxy? Orlin could've meant that when the Prior stepped into the Milky Way, he alerted Orlin to his presence, so he read his life's story. After all, Ascended beings have better things to do than to read the life's stories of beings not even in their galaxies of domain.

The crystals are mortal plane technology. Of course their range is limited. This is in no way a relection on the powers of Ascended beings.

Alterran1.
January 25th, 2008, 04:42 AM
We have no evidence the crystals in their staffs are limited after all the Ancient communication device had no problem contacting the Ori galaxy.

The Prior also using his staff seemed to have no problem taking Gerak's mind to Celestis

The only possible evidence is that they had to use the Ark on the Prior at Earth though no evidence was shown that this effected anyone but him unlike when the Doci was shown the ark.

He neither had his staff nor his abilities when the information was passed between the Priors from the Doci.

Dutch_Razor
January 25th, 2008, 09:29 AM
So, aside from being hilaaaarious because of the rampant lack of finished CGI, wasn't the Final Battle between Adria and Morgan le Fay kinda illogical and plot-holy?

OK, so the CGI isn't done yet but it kinda looks like the two women actually killed each other. We know this can't happen as established by the eternal struggle between Anubis and Oma. Or is that a "special" case because... um... Anubis is only half-Ascended, so he cannot be killed as opposed to a fully Ascended?!

No, precedent states that two Ascended beings fighting will be locked in an eternal battle.

Let's move onto the next plothole (the size of Alaska):
What's up with Morgan le Fay being able to even match Adria in power?!

OK, so the Ark of Truth just stole away most of her powers by turning the Priors in the Ori galaxy, the Doci and possibly the people within hearing range of the Priors against her. Um... OK. So she lost a little bit of power.

But that still leaves the many worlds not currently with a Prior to shout "Stop worshipping them now!", not to mention the many planets converted in the Milky Way! Adria should still have plenty of power or at least enough to overpower Morgan, but Morgan went all "I am [a match for you] now!" and dived straight in... and matched her in power!

So... um... what? Does Morgan have some kind of secret cult of worshippers encompassing a few million because, really, that's how many worshippers Adria should still have left.

I woudln't be suprised if Morgan la Fey is actually Maria or something, so all the "worshippers" direct power to her even if she doesn't "need" it. Perhaps the Others receive power from general god worshipping, even though they did not actively propogate that?

flameling
January 25th, 2008, 03:11 PM
The Others aren't idiots. They wouldn't give Anubis the means to kill other Ascended beings by allowing him to become a Milky Way Ori (they probably have, you know, rules against that).

They probably do, but their punishment to Oma was that NO ancient can interfere with Anubis, and I wouldn't be surprised of a few Jaffa considered him god. Back to Adria and Morgan, maybe a few priors minds were there or they couldn't get power from the milky way due to the ancients blacking it or something.

freetoken
February 2nd, 2008, 01:32 AM
It sounds as if TPTB did in AoT what they have done in SGA in season 4. That is, the plot comes to an uncomfortably quick and easy ending - everything comes together just in the nick of time.

This is sad, as it means the SG universe doesn't have any real drama (or good stories) anymore, but just formulas for 42 minutes (or, in the case of DVD movies, maybe 84 minutes.)

Perhaps the best thing MGM could do for its Stargate franchise is to take it away from the current team (of producers and writers).

g.o.d
February 2nd, 2008, 02:24 AM
Perhaps the best thing MGM could do for its Stargate franchise is to take it away from the current team (of producers and writers).

YES!!!!

BloomGate
February 2nd, 2008, 09:25 AM
It sounds as if TPTB did in AoT what they have done in SGA in season 4. That is, the plot comes to an uncomfortably quick and easy ending - everything comes together just in the nick of time.

That is an interesting perspective that I have never heard before although I'm not sure what you are proposing. Are you suggesting that they end the plot before the end of the show and add filler? It sounds to me like you don't like climactic conclusions - which are a staple of the action/adventure genre.

Can you give me examples of which episodes from the past that you liked and which from season 4 that you didn't like? It would help me understand what you are referring to.


This is sad, as it means the SG universe doesn't have any real drama (or good stories) anymore, but just formulas for 42 minutes (or, in the case of DVD movies, maybe 84 minutes.)

Listing which eps you like and don't like will explain this for me. I don't think that season 4 has been formulaic more than any other season.


Perhaps the best thing MGM could do for its Stargate franchise is to take it away from the current team (of producers and writers).

LOL That's funny. It would kill the franchise.

Mister Oragahn
February 2nd, 2008, 03:21 PM
Again, NO PROOF to your statement.

Bring proof of your o-pi-nion! O-bey! O-bey!

What about checking the definition of opinion for a change?

NoobTau'ri
February 5th, 2008, 01:00 AM
Illlogical Final Battle in "Ark of Truth"?

I think that Morgan was imbeded with the power of the entire ascended Ancient collective for that battle. It was not her against Adria.

NoobTau'ri
February 5th, 2008, 01:01 AM
I think that this is what the writers are trying to tell us:

Tau'ri >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ancients

We have finally surpassed them. In only ten years, we have surpassed their tens if not hundreds of million sof years of existence and experience.

pristinaheather
February 5th, 2008, 01:21 AM
anubis wouldnt get that power because he was only half ascended. he was only allowed what power he could have emassed when he was a plain go'ould and sadly (for the snakes) they never actually gained anything from worshipers. on a similar ticket, i think the oma/ anubis battle differs from the final battle in AOT because oma was being punished. i also think its implied that the ori spintered a bit of the power they held to the priors in order to "recruit" more worshipers. i just assumed when the ark was opened she lost most of her power what with so much of it loaned to the priors, and she was defeated in her immediate daze... or whatever.

i was just disappointed because i wanted to learn more about the ori/ancient split :(

gopher65
February 6th, 2008, 02:11 PM
Anubis vs. Oma. Ancient Ascended Being vs. Half-Ascended Being. Outcome? Eternal stalemate.
<snip>
And you're still forgetting about the part where Anubis told Oma "You can't kill me" to which Oma replied "No, but I can fight you and all you can do is fight back". Of course, it could be argued the Others put in state some kind of mechanism against killing Anubis (for whatever reason) but that would just be stupid.
I got the feeling both from the show and the commentaries that Daniel had the power to kill Anubis, which is why Oma stopped him (the director says that Anubis was afraid of Daniel, and that's why he raises his hand when Daniel starts charging up his hands). It is also clear however that even though Oma herself can overpower Daniel, she can't kill Anubis. In my mind I reconciled these showstopping facts by saying that The Others had put some sort of mechanism in place to prevent Oma, and only Oma, from stopping Anubis. That was part of her punishment for breaking the rules. She could only sit back and watch Anubis go crazy killing people, helpless to stop him directly.

shadowfox87
February 20th, 2008, 09:07 AM
Wow long thread. Well, here's my opinion. To understand Morgan Le Fay vs Adria, we must consider Oma vs Anubis. Anubis is half ascended, therefore Oma>Anubis, but Oma cannot kill Anubis and Anubis cannot kill Oma, so we got a stalemate. Yea I understand that Adria's powers were "greatly diminished", but not nullified, BUT by the same logic, Adria>Morgan Le Fay. Morgan doesn't have to be equal in power to "match" Adria just like Anubis was not equal with Oma. Therefore, it is another eternal battle. Ascended beings should not have the power to destroy each other regardless of how strong they are relative to others.

Yea I know you're probably wondering what's the whole point of Ori gaining power then? The point was not to KILL the ancients with more power. The rule was that the Ancients don't interfere if the Ori don't. That's why the Ori had to use vessels to do what they wanted instead of personally doing it themselves. With more power, the Ori would then have the ability to defy the Ancients and do what they want. They don't have to kill the Ancients to do that. Gaining more power was a means to gain supremacy over the Ancients, but not kill them.

Eternal battles are cool because they can always bring back old villains. Hopefully we'll see good ol' Anubis again. As for Adria, to me, she is a good person and will probably help us later on...I want to see more Morena Baccarin!! lol :)

sidenote:Also, something even more illogical, can someone explain to me why the Odyssey's shields are so fricking strong?? I mean there's 4 Ori ships shooting at it....

Mitchell82
February 20th, 2008, 12:01 PM
So, aside from being hilaaaarious because of the rampant lack of finished CGI, wasn't the Final Battle between Adria and Morgan le Fay kinda illogical and plot-holy?

OK, so the CGI isn't done yet but it kinda looks like the two women actually killed each other. We know this can't happen as established by the eternal struggle between Anubis and Oma. Or is that a "special" case because... um... Anubis is only half-Ascended, so he cannot be killed as opposed to a fully Ascended?!

No, precedent states that two Ascended beings fighting will be locked in an eternal battle.

Let's move onto the next plothole (the size of Alaska):
What's up with Morgan le Fay being able to even match Adria in power?!

OK, so the Ark of Truth just stole away most of her powers by turning the Priors in the Ori galaxy, the Doci and possibly the people within hearing range of the Priors against her. Um... OK. So she lost a little bit of power.

But that still leaves the many worlds not currently with a Prior to shout "Stop worshipping them now!", not to mention the many planets converted in the Milky Way! Adria should still have plenty of power or at least enough to overpower Morgan, but Morgan went all "I am [a match for you] now!" and dived straight in... and matched her in power!

So... um... what? Does Morgan have some kind of secret cult of worshippers encompassing a few million because, really, that's how many worshippers Adria should still have left.

First even without the finished CGI it looks like another eternal battle. No lone Ascended being could match her in power prior to the Ark being used. Once the Ark activated Adria was rapidly loosing power and was vulnerable. With the Priors turned that basically shut the spigot off. With her power diminished Morgan was more than a match for her.

kymeric
February 22nd, 2008, 05:51 AM
sidenote:Also, something even more illogical, can someone explain to me why the Odyssey's shields are so fricking strong?? I mean there's 4 Ori ships shooting at it....

Season 3 SGA tao of rodney: Mckay creates a upgrage to the 303 shields, may have needed to be explained to an asgard engineer.

That plus a ZPM powering it makes up the slack.

g.o.d
February 22nd, 2008, 06:01 AM
. Once the Ark activated Adria was rapidly loosing power and was vulnerable. With the Priors turned that basically shut the spigot off. With her power diminished Morgan was more than a match for her.

how was that possible? Cooper didn't bother to explain that. They just opened that box and suddenly Adria was weaker :rolleyes:

The.Road.Not.Taken
February 22nd, 2008, 06:11 AM
how was that possible? Cooper didn't bother to explain that. They just opened that box and suddenly Adria was weaker :rolleyes:

its possible because Adria got all her powers from the prior granted she had some of her power because she is ascended thats why morgan could kick her ass:D

Aegis
July 25th, 2011, 07:49 AM
How? I doubt the Doci has powers like that and even if he did, Adria could easily strip him of them should he move against her.


Doesn't matter. It should still give Adria power. How many planets have fallen to the Ori now? And how many worshippers is the Milky Way totaling by now? Hundreds of thousands, at the least.

Anubis vs. Oma. Ancient Ascended Being vs. Half-Ascended Being. Outcome? Eternal stalemate.

One Single Ori being worshipped by hundreds of thousands vs. One Single Ancient with as far as we know zero worshippers = Dead Morgan le Fay.

And you're still forgetting about the part where Anubis told Oma "You can't kill me" to which Oma replied "No, but I can fight you and all you can do is fight back". Of course, it could be argued the Others put in state some kind of mechanism against killing Anubis (for whatever reason) but that would just be stupid.

Erm, actually lets make that nearly a whole galaxy of people in Pegasus that worship the Lanteans as gods. Remember Halling's prair to the Ancients (Ancesters) "Fathers of light, of the everlasting temple" and since thats a whole galaxy and Adria only had some of the milky way and some of the Ori galaxy, that makes them even

garhkal
May 10th, 2012, 03:04 PM
I agree, it is annoying. What Morgan said was that Adria's power would be greatly diminished, not nullified. This is canonical evidence for that just by turning the Priors in the Ori galaxy and the Doci, not all of Adria's power was taken away.

Hence, she still should have more power than a lone rogue Ancient (who was banished and who was still toeing the line in how much she could interfere) unless said Ancient had a ton of worshippers who worshipped her personally.

Also, to whoever said that Ascended beings should be able to kill each other, I'n not saying that's not true. I'm saying that in Threads, Oma and Anubis set the precedent that Ascended beings of equal strength will be forever locked in a stalemate, not that they would destroy each other... unless for whatever reason, the Others put in state a mechanism that made it impossible to kill Anubis (but that would be stupid) and Oma was far, far, far stronger than him, making it impossible for both of them to kill each other.

Maybe since Adria was only NEWLY ascended, she had not gotten a full grasp on USING her ascended powers, where as Morgan has been that way for 1000s of years.

Snowman37
May 10th, 2012, 07:48 PM
Wow, you just replied to a post from January 20th, 2008. :S

garhkal
May 18th, 2012, 02:55 PM
I do that from time to time.. Didn't see this thread back then.

Alteran Prior
May 18th, 2012, 08:43 PM
Who cares if the minds of the Priors and the Doci have changed? They cannot force people to believe what they believe (at the very least there's been nothing to show tha tthey're capable of doing it). Hence, the people not within earshot of Priors would still be worshipping the Ori (Adria)..................

Even if there were, say, one Prior on every planet, their shouting can only carry the sounds of their voices so far. Not everyone on every planet would even be able to hear their pleas for people to stop worshipping Adria. Not to mention the few (many?) who would react like the Doci, drop to his knees and cry.


Yeah, the brains of the Priors and the Doci. The Priors, however, do not have the power to brainwash followers (as it's against Origin to brainwash people into believing in it... you have to do it the old fashioned way).

It doesn't matter if a whole bunch of Priors and the Doci stopped believing in Adria. There would still be followers................




The problem would still be "How did Morgan become strong enough to be at least close to as strong as Adria while she's powered by the few remanining Ori believers"? That's where the problem lies.

See the following quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate:_The_Ark_of_Truth

When the Ark is activated and opened, the Doci is caught by the beam and made to see that the Ori are not gods and spreads this belief to all of the Priors in the Ori galaxy and through them their followers.
And this quote from http://www.gateworld.net/movies/02.shtml

The truth about the Ori, programmed by the Alterans millions of years ago, is reflected to all other Priors via their staffs -- and instantly transmitted to all the humans near them, on planets and ships throughout the galaxy..............

Returning to the S.G.C. with the Ark, Daniel, Teal'c and Landry expose the one-eyed Prior. Through him, the other Ori followers in the Milky Way learn the truth and abandon the fight.

The "converting energy/message" from the Ark was received by the brain of the Doci and then relayed from the Doci to the Prior staffs which sent the signal to the brains of the Priors and then to the brains of the regular human followers. Neither the Doci nor the Priors had to consciously make an effort to convert anyone. They were simply relays used by the Ark device itself to accomplish its function of sending out its conversion signal to everyone in the galaxy in which it was located.