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Pogo01
January 5th, 2008, 09:57 AM
Hive ships shouldn't even be able to scratch the surface of an Aurura class battleship yet it did.. The traveler ships haven't been explained much but i doubt they are as strong or ever stronger than the Wraith so their ships shouldn't have done much damage either. As for the 2 Earth Ships and the 1 Ancient Traveler Ship leave it to them to face 30 Aurora Class Ships? In other words it was more like a 3 on 30 with the other Allied ships as bait or as a distraction, either way every ship besides the 2 Earth Ships and the Ancient Traveler Ship should've been destroyed seeing as how Sheppard was able to shoot 2 drones at the Ancient ship and completely destroy it.

Not so logical eh? They made the Ancient ships look so weak compared to what they've been viewed upon this entire time.

Land010
January 5th, 2008, 09:58 AM
For some unexplained reason the Auroras did not seem to be using shields at all, I only saw one shot in the entire episode where an Aurora had a shot deflected by a shield (When the 302s and Darts swarmed one) and the shields were quickly overwhlemed when a bunch of missles were fired into it. I didn't get it at all.

Pogo01
January 5th, 2008, 10:00 AM
Yeah.. either way we should've lost that battle, leave it to the writers to leave out the major details. 1 Ancient ship should be able to take out 5+ Hive ships -.-

Myles
January 5th, 2008, 10:06 AM
The Auroras did look weak, there's no denying that. However, Hives should be able to do damage. They had to be able to do damage or no amount of numbers would have won the war 10,000 years ago. As far as Travelers ships, they were just there to take fire away from Hives and 304's. I doubt they were hurting the Auroras.

The fleet should have taken more damage, though. I hardly saw any drones at all from the Asurans. They somehow got the drop on them which accounts for early success, but after the first minute or two the Asurans should have gotten things together and really hit us hard. Then the blob would have formed and we would have been OK. Instead they made the Auroras look incredible weak, the Asurans incredibly dumb, and us completely overpowered.

Pogo01
January 5th, 2008, 10:13 AM
The Auroras did look weak, there's no denying that. However, Hives should be able to do damage. They had to be able to do damage or no amount of numbers would have won the war 10,000 years ago. As far as Travelers ships, they were just there to take fire away from Hives and 304's. I doubt they were hurting the Auroras.

Well yes.. Wraith ships can do damage but they do very very little damage. If you recall the Ancients could win every battle but lose the war. Therefore it is plasuable to assume that 1 Ancient ship can destroy a Wraith ship without a sweat. Even 2 or 3 given the amount of drones it takes to destroy 1 ship and the ammount of drones that can be fired at once. Those 7 Hives still wouldn't have enough firepower to destroy an Aurora Class ship as easily as it did.

Remember the Wraith aren't technologically as advanced as the Ancients, not even close. They rely on numbers.. so doing whatever calculations 7 hive don't stand a chance against an ancient ship let alone 30.

jenks
January 5th, 2008, 11:34 AM
Yeah.. either way we should've lost that battle, leave it to the writers to leave out the major details. 1 Ancient ship should be able to take out 5+ Hive ships -.-

Huh? We would have, it was only a distraction so that McKay could complete his mission.

jdbond
January 5th, 2008, 11:35 AM
Well yes.. Wraith ships can do damage but they do very very little damage. If you recall the Ancients could win every battle but lose the war. Therefore it is plasuable to assume that 1 Ancient ship can destroy a Wraith ship without a sweat. Even 2 or 3 given the amount of drones it takes to destroy 1 ship and the ammount of drones that can be fired at once. Those 7 Hives still wouldn't have enough firepower to destroy an Aurora Class ship as easily as it did.

Remember the Wraith aren't technologically as advanced as the Ancients, not even close. They rely on numbers.. so doing whatever calculations 7 hive don't stand a chance against an ancient ship let alone 30.

If pure numbers could win the war, I am sure million people pelting stones on a Ori ship could do the trick. Remember in very first episode that ancient hologram says that ancients had never encountered beings that matched them in power. it's true that hives are not as powerful as an ancient ship but to say that wraiths were so far behind is ridiculous. 14 or so human/jaffa/...ship didn't even scratch one ori ship in first battle (or almost any battle) so if your really have that much of technological edge, you will never loose irrespective of the numbers. Also in one episode (the return I think), the ancient woman explains how bunch of cruisers proved too much for their ship.

jdbond
January 5th, 2008, 11:38 AM
The fleet should have taken more damage, though. I hardly saw any drones at all from the Asurans. They somehow got the drop on them which accounts for early success, but after the first minute or two the Asurans should have gotten things together and really hit us hard. Then the blob would have formed and we would have been OK. Instead they made the Auroras look incredible weak, the Asurans incredibly dumb, and us completely overpowered.

ahem, battle only lasted for minute or two! I am not sure why so many people are assuming that battle was going for 1 hour or so and human-wraith was winning the war though in reality they were next to total wipe out.

jdbond
January 5th, 2008, 11:39 AM
Huh? We would have, it was only a distraction so that McKay could complete his mission.

Very true. it's idiotic to think that replicators were loosing the war. The so called war didn't last more than 2 minutes.

Shan Bruce Lee
January 5th, 2008, 12:08 PM
Huh? We would have, it was only a distraction so that McKay could complete his mission.

yeah that's how I saw it.

inta
January 5th, 2008, 12:21 PM
i didn't think we were really winning the space fight.
it took mckays plan to really put a hurt on the asuran fleet.

the wraith use suicide dart methods to knock out sheilds and engines on the asuran fleet, that much we know.
we don't know the extent of the damage the wraith suffered until next week at least.

Mitchell82
January 5th, 2008, 12:27 PM
i didn't think we were really winning the space fight.
it took mckays plan to really put a hurt on the asuran fleet.

the wraith use suicide dart methods to knock out sheilds and engines on the asuran fleet, that much we know.
we don't know the extent of the damage the wraith suffered until next week at least.

No we werent winning. We balsted a few ships but we would have had our asses handed to us if not for Mckay.

Briangate78
January 5th, 2008, 12:29 PM
Atlantis, the Wraith, and The Travelers would of lost the battle if it lasted longer than what time was needed. Mckay just needed them to hold them off so he could complete his mission. After he activated the magnetic program the Aurora class ships were rendered useless since no one was there to pilot them.

BTW, did you see how many drifting Aurora class ships were left in the end?

Mitchell82
January 5th, 2008, 12:31 PM
Atlantis, the Wraith, and The Travelers would of lost the battle if it lasted longer than what time was needed. Mckay just needed them to hold them off so he could complete his mission. After he activated the magnetic program the Aurora class ships were rendered useless since no one was there to pilot them.

BTW, did you see how many drifting Aurora class ships were left in the end?

Quite a few but most likely beyond repair.

Rokiyo
January 5th, 2008, 12:51 PM
The more watch that battle, the more I start to think the tables were close to turning.

For starters, it was a 3 minute long battle. In that time 1 hive was lost, and many of the others were close to critical. The earth ships were reporting low shield strength. A traveler was destroyed.

In that time, they only took out 5 auroras, despite catching atleast 4 with their shields down! How long have we known any non-hive ship to survive after it lost shields?

On top of that, by the half way point of the battle, a mere couple of minutes after the surprise-attack, many of the replicator ships were already in formations and focus firing!

If the battle had gone on another 5 minutes, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see all the earth and wraith ships either destroyed or disabled. I doubt the travelers would really do all that well by themselves against the remaining auroras.

2ndgenerationalteran
January 5th, 2008, 12:55 PM
Actually they looked too far away to actually be in the battle, i think they were going the location of the battle but didnt get there on time. It looked like atleast 20 Auroras that only damage came from the stream of nanites. IMO the alliance was fighting maybe a dozen ships tops, a one on one match that we didnt even finish. It was not a duel it was a distraction.

Pogo01
January 5th, 2008, 01:58 PM
The way i see it whether the battle was 1 or 2 minutes.. every aurora class ship appeared to have taken extreme damage from Traveler and Wraith ship.. this is not possible. Seeing as how the Aurora class ships are superior to both it would take more than a few minutes to damage it to the point it has no shields. And it still doesn't explain how two drones are able to take out 1 Aurora Class Ship. SO yeah we would've lost that bttle, but it was only a distraction, but you cant ignore the amount of damage we did to each ship which is impossible

2ndgenerationalteran
January 5th, 2008, 02:40 PM
Actually we did a lot of damage in the initial attack. Probably enough to keep the auroras from performing at 100%. Plus we did out number them, the last scene had them converging on the location of the battle, before that they were out numbered and the 304s did shred 2 ships. Take those 2 out of the total kill count and we have 2 Auroras destroyed in fair fighting, and occasional help from a 304. The alliance all ships took considerable damage, and 2 ships were lost and i wouldnt be suprised if more hives were lost so its just about even with last time.

Pogo01
January 5th, 2008, 04:07 PM
Keep in mind that the Aurura Class Ship in "No Mans Land" took direct fire from Wraith ships with no shields for at least 2 minutes.. Considering this.. how is it some fighters were able to take out the Aurora class ships since people before me in this topic have brought up "the battle was only 1-2 minutes" as if it makes a big difference.

jenks
January 5th, 2008, 04:18 PM
I think I'm going to have to go up a lot of notches on the nerd-o-meter before I start to care.

Pogo01
January 5th, 2008, 04:43 PM
If you don't care why are you here? No body cares if you care or not, you don't need to waste your time posting about it. If you're going to call me a nerd for making this thread you can call the other thousands of members who have made threads and i can call you one too for even being apart of a Sci-Fi forum.

Arative
January 5th, 2008, 04:47 PM
Keep in mind that the Aurura Class Ship in "No Mans Land" took direct fire from Wraith ships with no shields for at least 2 minutes.. Considering this.. how is it some fighters were able to take out the Aurora class ships since people before me in this topic have brought up "the battle was only 1-2 minutes" as if it makes a big difference.

Large amount fire drained the shields. Least that is what I saw when watching the show. Lots of darts and 302's and rail gun fire from the 304's until the shields collapsed and then took out the hull of at least one ship. Plenty of fire from wraith cruisers were occupying a lot of of the Aurora ships as well. The plasma beams on the 305 took out two ships I believe and then drones fired from the travellers ship took out another one.

So it isn't inconceivable that 13 cruisers and several hundred darts and 302's could take out 4 ships. Remember one on one, Ancients win, in overwhelming numbers, Ancients lost. Same could be said of the replicators and their Aurora ships.

Pogo01
January 5th, 2008, 05:39 PM
Although the ratio of Wraith to Ancients were more than 2:1. Therefore 1v1 Ancients would win, 2v1 Ancients would win. Although i can't calculate the exact percentage we can all agree in our heads 4 Wraith Hive ships would probobly lose hands down to the Ancients. The drones don't exactly need to be targeted, a few drones could destroy a hive ship in seconds so 4 would be easy. So you can't simply say anything past 2 ships could easily destroy an Ancient ship.

You have to keep in mind the ease in firing a drone.. all it takes is a single thought and one drone can easily take out a fighter and seeing as how two drones can take out an Aurora Class ship.. i don't see why 2 drones cant destroy a Hive ship when drones dont necessarily explode on impact, instead it keeps on penetrating the ship until it is destroyed.

garhkal
January 5th, 2008, 06:31 PM
Hive ships shouldn't even be able to scratch the surface of an Aurura class battleship yet it did..

How can you say that. Every other time we have seen hives and Auroras, they got pawned.. BUT then again they were also already damaged.

Avenger
January 5th, 2008, 06:35 PM
I hardly saw any drones at all from the Asurans.

I don't think any of the Replicator ships were firing drones as it takes a chair and someone with the gene to fire them.

Mitchell82
January 5th, 2008, 06:35 PM
I think I'm going to have to go up a lot of notches on the nerd-o-meter before I start to care.

Wow your attitude really has changed alot lately. You used to like this show.

jenks
January 5th, 2008, 06:45 PM
Wow your attitude really has changed alot lately. You used to like this show.

Read more carefully. I'm talking about the slight inconsistencies between fights, I honestly couldn't really care less if an Asuran ship gets destroyed a bit too easily as long as I'm entertained, especially when there are probably a hundred and one different explanations we could theorise for it if we could be arsed to. Unless there's something totally retarded, I'm not going to get into these techy nerd arguments that ultimately achieve nothing.

Mitchell82
January 5th, 2008, 06:46 PM
Read more carefully. I'm talking about the slight inconsistencies between fights, I honestly couldn't really care less if an Asuran ship gets destroyed a bit too easily as long as I'm entertained, especially when there are probably a hundred and one different explanations we could theorise for it if we could be arsed to. Unless there's something totally retarded, I'm not going to get into these techy nerd arguments that ultimately achieve nothing.

Oh got ya. In that case I agree.;)

PG15
January 5th, 2008, 07:01 PM
I think he does, but, like me, probably doesn't care that much about all the tech-y intricacies of this episode.

It was just spectacular. That's all I need to know.

EDIT: Yeah, what he said. ;)

Pogo01
January 5th, 2008, 07:03 PM
How can you say that. Every other time we have seen hives and Auroras, they got pawned.. BUT then again they were also already damaged.

Exactly, but what i really meant was. Hive ships can barely scratch the surface of the Aurora Class ships with its shields on. But beside the point, it still takes a real beating to destroy an Aurora Class with no shields.

PG15
January 5th, 2008, 08:17 PM
Has anyone considered the very-likely possibility that the Wraith have upgraded their weapons? They have been at war (with each other, and then the replicators) for the better part of 2.5 years now.

Pogo01
January 5th, 2008, 08:39 PM
No i have never thought about that. Even if they did i wouldnt say 2.5 years.. From the episode "No Man's Land" where 2 Hive ships fired upon an already damaged Asuran Ship for like 3 minutes straight with no shields, to a single Hive ship being able to severely damage a fully operational Asuran ship with no shields isn't very likely.. The Wraith arent dumb.. but in 10,000 years they still haven't figured out a way to technologically advance themselves i doubt they can upgrade their weapons that much within 1 year.

Not to mention the Ancients have been around tens if not hundreds of thousands of years before the Wraith even existed so even then if the Wraith were ever to defeat the Ancients tech wise i would call the writers and tell them how full of **** they are.

PG15
January 5th, 2008, 08:46 PM
No i have never thought about that. Even if they did i wouldnt say 2.5 years.. From the episode "No Man's Land" where 2 Hive ships fired upon an already damaged Asuran Ship for like 3 minutes straight with no shields,

Correction, it was 1 nuke-damage hive, as the shields only went down after the drones were fired, which blew up the other hive.


to a single Hive ship being able to severely damage a fully operational Asuran ship with no shields isn't very likely.. The Wraith arent dumb.. but in 10,000 years they still haven't figured out a way to technologically advance themselves i doubt they can upgrade their weapons that much within 1 year.

The Wraith have also never faced this much warfare since 10000 years ago. War is a great motivator for technological advancements.

Pogo01
January 5th, 2008, 09:35 PM
The Wraith have never been at war with the replicator until now. The replicator have remained dormant and have been living happily ever after thinking only about themselves. The Wraith have not started fighting each other until Season 3 i think? or Maybe 2. Nonetheless it takes more than 2 years of fighting to go from barely scratching an Aurora Class ship to completely devastating it.

PG15
January 5th, 2008, 09:43 PM
Nonetheless it takes more than 2 years of fighting to go from barely scratching an Aurora Class ship to completely devastating it.

How do you know?

Pogo01
January 5th, 2008, 09:57 PM
How do we know anything in this forum? Half the things people say from this forum is derived from common sense and past episodes. If you really think in your head that a single Wraith ship can go from **** to gold in 2 years then go on dreaming. Why don't you just compare a Monkey throwing rocks at a Tank and 2 years later the Monkeys shooting an Ak47 at a it. Same idea.

EDIT: And before you say your smart ass comment i'll add in NO noone handed the Monkey the Ak47.. let's say for arguments sake that the Monkey being at war for "2.5" years advanced itself to the point where in 2 years it was able to upgrade its weapon of choice from a stone to an ak47.

jenks
January 5th, 2008, 10:06 PM
2.5 years is plenty of time to advance militarily, do you realise how many advances in military technology there were during the second world war alone?

PG15
January 5th, 2008, 10:23 PM
How do we know anything in this forum? Half the things people say from this forum is derived from common sense and past episodes. If you really think in your head that a single Wraith ship can go from **** to gold in 2 years then go on dreaming. Why don't you just compare a Monkey throwing rocks at a Tank and 2 years later the Monkeys shooting an Ak47 at a it. Same idea.

EDIT: And before you say your smart ass comment i'll add in NO noone handed the Monkey the Ak47.. let's say for arguments sake that the Monkey being at war for "2.5" years advanced itself to the point where in 2 years it was able to upgrade its weapon of choice from a stone to an ak47.

What kind of simpleton do you take me for? My smart ass remarks are a lot funnier, cutting, and insightful than that.

I KNOW the Wraith developed their butts off because of what I saw in this episode. You can either stay in your narrow little world thinking that no way can the Wraith go that far with their tech, or you can open your mind to the possibility that the Wraith are better at adapting than we have imagined, thus creating no plotholes.

And I see you seem to have avoided my comment about the fact that the single hive that eventually took down the Orion had a nuke detonate on its butt. Surely that'll weaken it, no?

Heh, and now that I rewatch the BAMSR battle again, I realize that this whole discussion is kind of irelevant. There is not a single shot of a hive taking out a replicator ship with only a few shots. Ok, there is 1, but the problem is, we don't know whether that rep ship was already damaged by other hives or not.

Pogo01
January 5th, 2008, 10:24 PM
I never said the Wraith didn't advance tech wise. I'm just saying the Ancients have existed for thousands if not hundreds of thousands of years and have been at war countless of times even before the Wraith even started to emerge as a race. So how is PG15 going to refute my "THEORY" by saying within 2.5 years.. and being at war twice that they can go from only being able to win a battle in huge numbers when the odds are mostlikely 5+:1 to a single Hive ship being able to take out a Aurora Class ship.

But again.. for the sake of the argument if this is possible then SGA won't go past season 5. I mean what's the point? The Wraith are still out there.. 1 ship can severely cripple a Aurora ship single handedly with no shields so 2 if not 3 should be able to take it out with ease. Therefore there's no point in SGA to go on if theres an enemy as powerful as the Wraith being as unstoppable as they are.

Pogo01
January 5th, 2008, 10:26 PM
What kind of simpleton do you take me for? My smart ass remarks are a lot funnier, cutting, and insightful than that.

I KNOW the Wraith developed their butts off because of what I saw in this episode. You can either stay in your narrow little world thinking that no way can the Wraith go that far with their tech, or you can open your mind to the possibility that the Wraith are better at adapting than we have imagined, thus creating no plotholes.

And I see you seem to have avoided my comment about the fact that the single hive that eventually took down the Orion had a nuke detonate on its butt. Surely that'll weaken it, no?

Heh, and now that I rewatch the BAMSR battle again, I realize that this whole discussion is kind of irelevant. There is not a single shot of a hive taking out a replicator ship with only a few shots. Ok, there is 1, but the problem is, we don't know whether that rep ship was already damaged by other hives or not.


I don't recall ever saying a Hive with a single shot destroyed a replicator ship. I said a Hive ship can single handledly severely damage a Aurora Class ship. Learn to read. If you rewatch carefuly you can see the amount of damage a Hive ship is causing on the Replicator ship.

PG15
January 5th, 2008, 11:45 PM
I'm just saying the Ancients have existed for thousands if not hundreds of thousands of years and have been at war countless of times even before the Wraith even started to emerge as a race.

There is no proof that they had "countless wars" before the Wraith sprung up. All we know is that there was a schism with what became the Ori, and then that was pretty much it. Anything in between is conjecture.


So how is PG15 going to refute my "THEORY" by saying within 2.5 years.. and being at war twice that they can go from only being able to win a battle in huge numbers when the odds are mostlikely 5+:1 to a single Hive ship being able to take out a Aurora Class ship.


As I said, I no longer have to offer that explanation as we never saw the hives fire on the Aurora class ships, except once.




I don't recall ever saying a Hive with a single shot destroyed a replicator ship.

Never said you did. I said "There is not a single shot of a hive taking out a replicator ship with only a few shots."

So how about YOU learn to read? :rolleyes:


I said a Hive ship can single handledly severely damage a Aurora Class ship. Learn to read. If you rewatch carefuly you can see the amount of damage a Hive ship is causing on the Replicator ship.

Screencaps please. I just watched that entire battle again, Only one shot of a Wraith hive directly firing on a rep ship and blowing it up. But again, as I said, we don't know if that rep ship was damaged already or not.

Astrofighter
January 5th, 2008, 11:57 PM
Your all forgetting one thing, when the blob was being formed its taking huge amounts of replicators in an instance! Bam, huge chunks of their network are just gone. Do you actually think that the replicators in space were oblivious to the events on the surface? No of course not, think about it in real life terms. Your walking along one day then out of no where a guy punches you right in the face. Pow, your like "wtf?" but he keeps pounding you, so you stand up and at first defend yourself, then you try and strike back. So now your fighting this guy but you have no clue what for and your not that coordinated. Then all of a sudden your left foot vanishes. It's just gone and it makes no sense what so ever, but you still got this guy pounding the crap out of you...do you think you would have 100% of your attention and effort still on the guy punching you in the face? Noooo, you would be wondering where the hell your foot has gone while trying to merely defend yourself and not do damage to your attacker. You would try and get out of their and assess your situation. Then your leg is gone...and you get the point. The replicators didn't know what hit them and they were getting it from every angle.

PG15
January 6th, 2008, 12:12 AM
Hey hey, just because you've got no evidence to back up your theories, it doesn't mean you have to get so worked up that you burst a blood vessel. Besides, this is the Internet, what the heck are you gonna do to me?

Stay cool and focus on the discussion, that's the mark of a good debater.

I'll make this simple. You give me a screencap of one of the hives in BAMSR severely damaging a not-damaged Aurora class warship, preferably where you can see that the energy bolt was blue, and thus from a hive, hitting an Aurora class and making a much larger explosion than what we saw in NML (which I think was the original point of this debate, that hives can now suddenly severely damage an Aurora with only a few shots), and I'll concede your point.

Pogo01
January 6th, 2008, 12:18 AM
I'll rewatch it tommorow morning. But either way I do recall a Hive ship severely damaging a Aurora class ship. And you've already agreed with me by saying


Ok, there is 1, but the problem is, we don't know whether that rep ship was already damaged by other hives or not.

How do you know if it was already damaged by the other hives? You're just speculating, what if it wasn't already damaged by the other hives and this is the scene iam refering too? Either way none of us has fullproof evidence.You're going to refute my theory based on your own.

And if you read my original post. The original discussion was of how weak the Aurora Class vessels were and how they were so weak compared to the all powerful warship it's been viewed upon.

PG15
January 6th, 2008, 12:22 AM
But see, there is the fact that this episode supports my theory.

A hive destroys an already-damaged rep ship = normal = no plothole.
A hive destroys an undamaged rep ship = strange = plothole.

The question is, why do you WANT there to be a plothole, when you can easily explain it away. In fact, a lot of your theories make certain that the plothole exists in the first place. Why do you want there to be plotholes?

Pogo01
January 6th, 2008, 12:32 AM
I don't intentionally produce plot holes.. if anything i hate them which is why i make topics for answers. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, then i would get some peace. But I'm just defending what i said, what I've seen, and what I've theorized. I saw the Wraith ship decimate the Aurora class ship. Whether or not it had be previously damaged we will never know but from what is shown and only that, I'm judging that it was simply taken down by that 1 Hive ship.

PG15
January 6th, 2008, 12:37 AM
Well, alright then.

But if you want an answer to that plothole, then I'd say it was already damaged.

jrd231
January 6th, 2008, 12:49 AM
I kept rewinding to look for shields the entire time. I only saw one instance of shields as well. I have no problem with the Apollo or Daedalus destroying Aurora class ships, with or without shields. The Hives I can see beating an Aurora in a 2-on-1 or 3-on-1 scenario. The Hive ship weapons always seemed super powerful. The Traveler ships I didn't expect to do much.

The bottom line was the fleet didn't take much damage and won too easily. It didn't make sense.

jenks
January 6th, 2008, 12:51 AM
I kept rewinding to look for shields the entire time. I only saw one instance of shields as well. I have no problem with the Apollo or Daedalus destroying Aurora class ships, with or without shields. The Hives I can see beating an Aurora in a 2-on-1 or 3-on-1 scenario. The Hive ship weapons always seemed super powerful. The Traveler ships I didn't expect to do much.

The bottom line was the fleet didn't take much damage and won too easily. It didn't make sense.

The fleet didn't win.

dzineguy84
January 6th, 2008, 12:55 AM
To everyone who thinks that there's no way the hives could have upgraded their weapons in such a short time ... did you even see season 2? Within one EPISODE, the Wraith were able to jam against a beaming technology they had (as far as we know) never come across. ONE EPISODE! That's a pretty small time frame.

So seriously, give the Wraith some credit. They're not as stupid as we think they are. I think they're finally shaking off the dust thanks to their civil war and us and starting to get their war brain cells firing again.

Just my two cents. Feel free to bash and smash ...

spinspinspin
January 6th, 2008, 01:18 AM
I don't intentionally produce plot holes.. if anything i hate them which is why i make topics for answers. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, then i would get some peace. But I'm just defending what i said, what I've seen, and what I've theorized. I saw the Wraith ship decimate the Aurora class ship. Whether or not it had be previously damaged we will never know but from what is shown and only that, I'm judging that it was simply taken down by that 1 Hive ship.

It's unreasonable to assume there is a plothole, and then base all your evidence and ideas around the fact that a plothole must exist. This has inspired me to write this dialogue.

Act 1:
Alice and Bob, two stargate Atlantis fans, just watched BAMSR.
Alice: Ah ha! I see a plothole. I don't think a hive can take out an Aurora class ship with only a few shots.
Bob: Are you sure? Let's break this down. You are saying that you saw something inconsistent in BAMSR?
Alice: Yes Bob, that is what I said.
Bob: Well what was inconsistent?
Alice: Well, we know that hive ships are much weaker than Aurora ships and it's not consistent with known facts that a hive ship can take out an Aurora ship with a few shots.
Bob: That is true. But are sure that is what happened in BAMSR? Surely hive ships can sometimes destroy Aurora class ships, otherwise the Ancients would have never lost the war with the Wraith.
Alice: Of course hive ships can sometimes take out Aurora ships. We know that one reason the Wraith won was they just simply outnumbered the Ancients. So it's possible that a group of hive ships can take out an Aurora class, or that a hive ship can finish off a damaged Aurora class ship.
Bob: Well, what if that is what happened in BAMSR? IF that happened, would your plothole exist?
Alice: No, IF that happened, it would be consistent with previous facts. However, we don't know that if that was what happened.
Bob: Very well, but how do we know the hive took out the Aurora ship all by itself?
Alice: Well, I assumed it.
Bob: Indeed, and I will agree with you when you say "If that hive ship took out the Aurora ship all by itself, then a plothole may exist". Will you agree with me that "If that hive ship did NOT take out the Aurora by itself, then there is no plothole" ?
Alice: Yes, Bob, that does sounds very logical.

Act 2:
Bob: Excellent, I'm glad we finally agree. Now let's look at the logical consequences of our statements! What can we be sure of?
Alice: Well, I'm sure that it's a plothole!
Bob: Are you certain that is a logical result from our statements:
Premise 1: IF hive ship took out Aurora by self THEN plothole exists
Premise 2: IF NOT hive ship took out Aurora by self THEN NOT plothole exists.
Conclusion: THEREFORE, a plothole exists.
Is this what you are saying?
Alice: Yes it is Bob, please get to your point.
Bob: Okay, for the reasoning to be logically valid, there must not be a case where both premises are true, but the conclusion false. We have 2 clauses, let us label them for convenience:
H = hive ship took out Aurora by itself
P = Plothole exists
So we have
IF H then P
IF NOT H then NOT P
THEREFORE, P.
Do you agree with my abbreviations?
Alice: Yes, Bob.
Bob: Okay, there are 4 possible cases: H is True (T), and P is True (T), or H is T and P is F, or H is F and P is T, or H is F and P is F. Let me draw attention to the case where H is F and P is F.
Alice: Okay I'm looking at that.
Bob: Okay so if H is F and P is T, then the statement
IF H then P is logically true, because we have IF (false) then (false) = true; and the statement
IF NOT H then NOT P is also logically true, because we have IF (true) then (true) = true; finally, the conclusion:
THEREFORE, P, is false, since P is false.
Alice: Okay, I see what you did.
Bob: Ah ha! But now we have a situation where our premises were true, yet our conclusion is not.
Alice: Oh dear, then this means my logic is incorrect.
Bob: Indeed, based on our two original pieces of information, you cannot conclude that a plothole exist.

Act 3:
Alice: Okay but what if I assumed that the hive ship took out the Aurora ship by itself. Let us make that a fact. Then we can conclude that there is a plot hole, from Premise One.
Bob: However, you are confusing a deduction with a premise, my dear Alice.
Alice: How do you mean?
Bob: Well, when you say you "conclude" that there is a plot hole, from assuming that the hive ship took out the Aurora ship by itself. You are saying there is a plot hole ONLY IF the hive ship was alone in its efforts. Therefore, you are saying, IF the hive ship took out the Aurora ship, THEN there is a plothole.
Alice: Oh dear, that sounds awfully familiar.
Bob: Indeed, that is just restating the first premise, you are not drawing a conclusion.
Alice: I see now. I can't logically conclude something is true by making assumptions.
Bob: I'm glad we agree now. From our current information, we cannot conclude that a plothole exist, and we just learned that we cannot use Premise 1 to "conclude" that a plothole exist by assuming the hive ship was alone, because that is just restating Premise 1, not a making a logical deduction.
Alice: Wait a minute, can we conclude that a plothole does NOT exist?
Bob: That is a good question. Perhaps we should leave this as an exercise to the reader....

The End.

(Answer: You can't conclude that a plothole doesn't exist either, from the premises presented by Bob and Alice).

My point (albeit longwinded): I think we already agree that since we don't know if the hive ship was actually alone, we cannot conclude whether there was a plot hole, either way. However, the main issue I have is that I believe some people are making the mistake Alice makes in Act 3. We don't know for sure that the hive ship is alone and we can't assume it was, "conclude" that there is a plothole and expect to convince others of it.

Skydiver
January 6th, 2008, 08:08 AM
folks, let's not lose our perspective please. this is a discussion about a fictional tv show full of fictional characters and made up technology

Please discuss it to your hearts content, but let's not get all fussed over things. Especially to the point of name calling.

Pogo01
January 6th, 2008, 10:09 AM
Yeah umm this is a debate and I just woke up. So I'm not in the mood to read a two page dialogue which may or may not even be relevant to the issue. Maybe later though.

PG15
January 6th, 2008, 11:59 AM
Oh, it's relevant, if a little...twisty. Give it a read when you have time.

wise one
January 6th, 2008, 12:27 PM
for the most part of the fight i belived not all of the asuran ships were engaging in battle

only the ones that were in line of fire so maybe at least 10 ships that was fired upon so really it was a fair match

as for the other hives taking orbital position around the planet.. we have no idea where they went

RepliVeggie
January 6th, 2008, 02:46 PM
For one if the wraith were able to upgrade there weapons that much why do they still not have shields?

Second the Asurans are perfectly capable of firing drones as seen in "This Mortal Coil"

When this happened with the Odyssey destroying Ori ships I was able to reason that the Ori were religious sect not scientists so they prob weren't near as strong as the Alterans. Now with the replicator ships I accepted it when the Deadelus and Apollo destroyed Asuran ships when dropping from Hyperspace because as Thor once said Hyperspace takes too much power for shields and weapons to be online during travel. But I am kinda uneased about how easy it was to destroy the Asuran ships. A few ways I reason with myself is that the Asgard Beam weapons were ancient technology that they were able to build from the repository of the ancients. Or that maybe the Asuran tech is close but still a ways off of actual Alteran tech. Anyways awesome episode anyways. 10/10

rarocks24
January 6th, 2008, 02:51 PM
Hive ships shouldn't even be able to scratch the surface of an Aurura class battleship yet it did.. The traveler ships haven't been explained much but i doubt they are as strong or ever stronger than the Wraith so their ships shouldn't have done much damage either. As for the 2 Earth Ships and the 1 Ancient Traveler Ship leave it to them to face 30 Aurora Class Ships? In other words it was more like a 3 on 30 with the other Allied ships as bait or as a distraction, either way every ship besides the 2 Earth Ships and the Ancient Traveler Ship should've been destroyed seeing as how Sheppard was able to shoot 2 drones at the Ancient ship and completely destroy it.

Not so logical eh? They made the Ancient ships look so weak compared to what they've been viewed upon this entire time.

And we've seen the Wraith kick the Daedalus's ass how many times now?

Look, hive ships aren't weak. What they lack in defenses they have in firepower. In numbers, they are greater than Auroras because they can concentrate their firepower and bring their shields down quickly. Hell, the firepower of 10 hives was enough to drain an entire ZPM in several days.

The hives were there as heavy artillery. The hives were the tanks, they went in and grabbed aggro, and the Daedalus and Apollo were the dpsers of the battle, picking off the replicator ships one by one.