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MIZA
January 4th, 2008, 10:38 PM
Wow, i just thought some of the things others said to each other in this episode was not very nice,


- John shouldn't reacted that way to Teyla finally telling him about her pregnancy, he should have been happy and congragulated her and helped her figure out away to still contribute. She is not from Earth and he is not her father, he suppose to be her friend.

- What Colonel Ellis said to Rodney, implying that Rodney thinks everybody is stupid, and they wouldn't get that he doesn't have a plan fully ready, but Colonel Carter sure put Colonel Ellis in his place.

- Also wraith humor........ what happened? i wanted to see him laugh some more.

some quotes are good and funny, but there are things that characters shouldn't have said to each other, it's against their greatness.

so tell me what you think !!

MIZA
January 4th, 2008, 11:26 PM
also John with Larrin, let it go man , she's just not that into you !

triggrhaapi
January 4th, 2008, 11:40 PM
Wow, i just thought some of the things others said to each other in this episode was not very nice,


- John shouldn't reacted that way to Teyla finally telling him about her pregnancy, he should have been happy and congragulated her and helped her figure out away to still contribute. She is not from Earth and he is not her father, he suppose to be her friend.

- What Colonel Ellis said to Rodney, implying that Rodney thinks everybody is stupid, and they wouldn't get that he doesn't have a plan fully ready, but Colonel Carter sure put Colonel Ellis in his place.

- Also wraith humor........ what happened? i wanted to see him laugh some more.

some quotes are good and funny, but there are things that characters shouldn't have said to each other, it's against their greatness.

so tell me what you think !!

I'm sure Sheppard's anger was more over her allowing herself to place an innocent life in danger for such a prolonged period of time. I'm sure her withholding the knowledge of her pregnancy had something to do with it too, given that he is her commanding officer as well as her friend and both her life and the life of her baby are his responsibility. Heavy lies the crown as they say.

Colonel Ellis is kind of a <yes, i know he's a fictional character but calling him that is a bit close to breaking the rules.>, but he's a military man to the bone, they tend to get like that. And in his defense, McKay was beating around the bush when he should have gotten to the point.

triggrhaapi
January 4th, 2008, 11:41 PM
also John with Larrin, let it go man , she's just not that into you !

I wouldn't say that at all. She was giving him sexy eyes, she's just playing the ice queen.

starfox
January 4th, 2008, 11:54 PM
I'm gonna have to agree with triggrhaapi on the Sheppard issue. Teyla deliberately concealed a medical condition from her team leader; a condition that could have affected her performance in the field. We've seen in previous episodes that his team is the closest thing he has to family and that he feels responsible for them. Now he discovers that because of her omission he's been sending her into life-threatening situations. Plus, she springs this on him after they've just left a meeting in a Wraith hive ship. They're in the middle of a bad situation with the Replicators and she just sort of springs this on him. They're about to go attack the Asuran homeword; there's really no time to process the news and be the caring and supportive friend. I also think he felt a bit betrayed that someone so close to him would do something so reckless as to go into a combat situation while knocked up. Plus he's USAF, and there's got to be something in the rules that forbids sending pregnant women into combat situations.

Freekzilla
January 5th, 2008, 12:20 AM
Wow, i just thought some of the things others said to each other in this episode was not very nice,

[QUOTE=MIZA;7519949] - John shouldn't reacted that way to Teyla finally telling him about her pregnancy, he should have been happy and congragulated her and helped her figure out away to still contribute. She is not from Earth and he is not her father, he suppose to be her friend.

What he said and how he did it is only natural. Firstly: You have to remember, they are friends, and that's not something you hide from them. She knew for 2 months before she told them. Teyla was wrong for not telling him. And he had hurt feelings because of it. They've already shared and have been through a lot together. It's like she didn't trust him enough or think enough of him/them to share it with him/them. And that hurts. Who knows, maybe Sheppard has more than just professional feelings for her, and this just crushed him. Secondly, even though she's not from earth, she is part of the expedition. Sheppard is responsible for her. As her commander, this was something he needed to know. Thirdly, she put her child, AND the rest of the team in danger with her omission. Obviously, with the way Sheppard stressed the importance and dangers to the child, he cares or will care about this child.

Atleast, this is how I perceive it.


- What Colonel Ellis said to Rodney, implying that Rodney thinks everybody is stupid, and they wouldn't get that he doesn't have a plan fully ready, but Colonel Carter sure put Colonel Ellis in his place.

So what. Ellis was right. He may have the tact of a toadstool, but somebody had to do it. And Rodney does think everyone else is stupid. He's basically said so several times. But he's also said that that is due to his insecurities. Ellis just got tired of putting up with Rodney's quirkes/faults. I don't know about you, but Rodney gets on my nerves after a while too, and for the same reasons. BUT, I did like it that Carter stood up for him. She was basically telling Ellis that nobodies allowed to abuse Rodney but me. LOL! Oh, and Sheppard too.


- Also wraith humor........ what happened? i wanted to see him laugh some more. There was some Wraith humor. It was subtle and understated. Don't you think the Wraith was laughing on the inside when he "threatened" to feed on Rodney and the first immediate reaction on Rodney's face was almost like a deer caught in headlights. He was probably ROTFLHFAO on the inside, but didn't show it. I know I laughed at that moment. But on the other hand, I think humor is a bit new to the Wraith, so they may not completely grasp all of it's complexities and subtlties.


some quotes are good and funny, but there are things that characters shouldn't have said to each other, it's against their greatness.

so tell me what you think !!
No, I completely disagree. If they had acted the way you wanted them to, they would have been unnatural and fake. They way they did was "human".

Willow'sCat
January 5th, 2008, 02:49 AM
Wow, i just thought some of the things others said to each other in this episode was not very nice,


- John shouldn't reacted that way to Teyla finally telling him about her pregnancy, he should have been happy and congragulated her and helped her figure out away to still contribute. She is not from Earth and he is not her father, he suppose to be her friend.I think John is pissed that Teyla couldn't confide in him, share her news as it were with him earlier and also he is responsible for her on missions, he is her CO (even if she isn't military) it just goes to all of John big old leadership (and relationship) issues... oh and he has loads of issues. ;)



- What Colonel Ellis said to Rodney, implying that Rodney thinks everybody is stupid, and they wouldn't get that he doesn't have a plan fully ready, but Colonel Carter sure put Colonel Ellis in his place.
That whole exchange was a set up by tptb to let the fans know that Sam respects Rodney... I saw it coming a mile off, I don't buy it for one moment but if tptb want to manipulate us like that, what ya gonna do? :cool:


- Also wraith humor........ what happened? i wanted to see him laugh some more.
I think the less we hear of their humour the better. :S

so tell me what you think !!
I just did. :);)

AutumnDream
January 5th, 2008, 04:24 AM
Oh no everyone isn't 1000% nice to each other all the time! I'm starting a petition~!

*beats last ounce of drama out of stargate with metal pipe*

atlantis_babe34
January 5th, 2008, 04:34 AM
Ellis is a jackass (but i love michael beach lol)

and for the whole Teyla thing, i think the shock mostly cam to John that she didn't confind in him as a friend and i think that hurt him as well as alot of "What if?" question could have popped into his head as in lik e"what happene if she miscarried on a mission" "what if she was shot?" all theses factor he has to consider when he clears people for duty.

Shan Bruce Lee
January 5th, 2008, 06:54 AM
Oh no everyone isn't 1000% nice to each other all the time! I'm starting a petition~!

*beats last ounce of drama out of stargate with metal pipe*

haha you shouldn't have said that :vortex04:

g.o.d
January 5th, 2008, 07:02 AM
Wow, i just thought some of the things others said to each other in this episode was not very nice,


- John shouldn't reacted that way to Teyla finally telling him about her pregnancy, he should have been happy and congragulated her and helped her figure out away to still contribute. She is not from Earth and he is not her father, he suppose to be her friend.


He was 100% right. Teyla put her child in great danger. It was very reckless. She should have known it as a woman.




- What Colonel Ellis said to Rodney, implying that Rodney thinks everybody is stupid, and they wouldn't get that he doesn't have a plan fully ready, but Colonel Carter sure put Colonel Ellis in his place.

so tell me what you think !!

Ellis was right. Rodney actually walked in, started his techno-babbles and in the end he said he has no solution. He should have said it in the beginning, not to pretend he has a solution for their big problem.

Ruffles
January 5th, 2008, 07:49 AM
Wow, i just thought some of the things others said to each other in this episode was not very nice,


- John shouldn't reacted that way to Teyla finally telling him about her pregnancy, he should have been happy and congragulated her and helped her figure out away to still contribute. She is not from Earth and he is not her father, he suppose to be her friend.

- What Colonel Ellis said to Rodney, implying that Rodney thinks everybody is stupid, and they wouldn't get that he doesn't have a plan fully ready, but Colonel Carter sure put Colonel Ellis in his place.

- Also wraith humor........ what happened? i wanted to see him laugh some more.

some quotes are good and funny, but there are things that characters shouldn't have said to each other, it's against their greatness.

so tell me what you think !!

John and Teyla - I thought his reaction to her news was perfectly in character for him. He is very protective of his team and would have blamed himself if something happened to her or her child on a mission. She had a responsibility to tell him about her condition. As was noted at the beginning of the ep, she hadn't been feeling well. Any number of things (up to and including a miscarriage) could have happened while off-world. She was endangering herself, her child and the team. The timing of her telling them did not help the situation. He'll cool down eventually and congratulate her. Ronon at least had the advantage of suspecting she was seeing Kanan.

Ellis and McKay - Ellis was right in his assumptions but it was not his place to chastise Rodney. Ellis is very abrasive but he does admit when he's wrong. Someone needed to point out to Rodney that the plan to rewrite the replicator code wasn't working. Funny that it took the Wraith to do that. (And I loved Sam chewing out Ellis too)

Wraith - as was said by a previous poster, his humor was a bit more subtle this time. No laughing out loud but his comment that feeding on Rodney would spur him to hurry and the comment in the jumper that presenting him in chains to the other Wraith might not make the best impression were both worth a chuckle.

Conflict is a good thing. If everyone loved everyone else all the time (at least on TV) where would the drama be?

jenks
January 5th, 2008, 11:43 AM
- John shouldn't reacted that way to Teyla finally telling him about her pregnancy, he should have been happy and congragulated her and helped her figure out away to still contribute. She is not from Earth and he is not her father, he suppose to be her friend.

First and foremost he's her commanding officer, she let him send her out on missions while she was pregnant, what if something had happened to the baby? I'm not surprised how he reacted to be honest, he had every right to be furious.


- What Colonel Ellis said to Rodney, implying that Rodney thinks everybody is stupid, and they wouldn't get that he doesn't have a plan fully ready, but Colonel Carter sure put Colonel Ellis in his place.

To be fair, he's got a point, and the Carter scene was one of the few things I disliked about this episode, unless there's some serious character development in Continuum, I'm not guying this badass Carter routine.

toomanysides
January 5th, 2008, 11:54 AM
To be fair, he's got a point, and the Carter scene was one of the few things I disliked about this episode, unless there's some serious character development in Continuum, I'm not guying this badass Carter routine.

I been thinking, a scene of Carter visiting Gen Hammond right before taking over Atlantis would be better than the scene with Teal'c.

VSS
January 5th, 2008, 11:56 AM
First and foremost he's her commanding officer, she let him send her out on missions while she was pregnant, what if something had happened to the baby? I'm not surprised how he reacted to be honest, he had every right to be furious.



To be fair, he's got a point, and the Carter scene was one of the few things I disliked about this episode, unless there's some serious character development in Continuum, I'm not guying this badass Carter routine.

We all agree Ellis had a point, but he did go overboard. It's not like it was under extreme duress or in the heat of battle where he, a colonel, could be forgiven for losing his temper. He could have said what he said with half the words and a lot less emnity toward Rodney.

As for Carter, I thought she did a great job. "Praise in public and punish in private." That's what good leaders do. She read Ellis the riot act once everyone had left so as not to embarass him. So a badass- I don't really think so. If she were being a badass she'd have let him have it right there in front of Caldwell and Sheppard- instead she acted with professionalism.

jenks
January 5th, 2008, 12:01 PM
As for Carter, I thought she did a great job. "Praise in public and punish in private." That's what good leaders do. She read Ellis the riot act once everyone had left so as not to embarass him. So a badass- I don't really think so. If she were being a badass she'd have let him have it right there in front of Caldwell and Sheppard- instead she acted with professionalism.

She's a fictional character, it doesn't matter whether she does a good job or not, what matter is whether what she did was in-character, and in my opinion it sure as hell wasn't.

VSS
January 5th, 2008, 12:11 PM
She's a fictional character, it doesn't matter whether she does a good job or not, what matter is whether what she did was in-character, and in my opinion it sure as hell wasn't.

I thought it was in character for her. She's gotten angry at people before- as in Paradise Lost when she chewed out Dr. Lee. Hell, she even yelled at Jack in 2010. It takes a lot to trigger it (which is good), but it does happen. And I think she has a soft spot for Rodney, being a scientist she knows how hard it is to deliver when everyone is depending on you.

Mitchell82
January 5th, 2008, 12:17 PM
Wow, i just thought some of the things others said to each other in this episode was not very nice,


- John shouldn't reacted that way to Teyla finally telling him about her pregnancy, he should have been happy and congragulated her and helped her figure out away to still contribute. She is not from Earth and he is not her father, he suppose to be her friend.
I disagree. She deliberatly hid a medical condition from her supperiors. In their job she placed her life and her childs in mortal danger bynot revaling it. He is her friend which is why he was so pissed. He acted properly.


- What Colonel Ellis said to Rodney, implying that Rodney thinks everybody is stupid, and they wouldn't get that he doesn't have a plan fully ready, but Colonel Carter sure put Colonel Ellis in his place.
That I agree with. Carter really has fit in well great scene.


- Also wraith humor........ what happened? i wanted to see him laugh some more.
In this situation no I wouldnt want that.

toomanysides
January 5th, 2008, 01:00 PM
I thought it was in character for her. She's gotten angry at people before- as in Paradise Lost when she chewed out Dr. Lee. Hell, she even yelled at Jack in 2010. It takes a lot to trigger it (which is good), but it does happen. And I think she has a soft spot for Rodney, being a scientist she knows how hard it is to deliver when everyone is depending on you.

This especially holds true for Carter. I remember this scene where O'Neill came into Sam's Lab and asked her why she wasn't with the other scientist and her reply was she couldn't stand it in there because everyone was looking to her for the answer. She has always been the go to person when things go wrong, she knows the pressure that McKay is under. Yes what Ellis said was true, but Mckay isn't under Ellis and crossed the line. Carter is just standing up for her people, as O'neill and Hammond has always done with the people under their command. She learned from her commanders, it's the thing to do.

Jumper_One
January 5th, 2008, 01:11 PM
I thought it was in character for her. She's gotten angry at people before- as in Paradise Lost when she chewed out Dr. Lee. Hell, she even yelled at Jack in 2010. It takes a lot to trigger it (which is good), but it does happen. And I think she has a soft spot for Rodney, being a scientist she knows how hard it is to deliver when everyone is depending on you.

I agree it certainly was in character for her. I hadn't even thought about past SG-1 eps but she's 'the man' and Ellis' needs to respect her. not that he doesn't but I think Sam knows how it is to be in Rodney's position (well for the most part) and to be honest Ellis' was clearly out of line imo. he had no right to talk to Rodney like that and this is one of those moments where Carter can show what kind of boss she really is. apparently she's the one that protects the people under her command

Ruffles
January 5th, 2008, 02:23 PM
I agree it certainly was in character for her. I hadn't even thought about past SG-1 eps but she's 'the man' and Ellis' needs to respect her. not that he doesn't but I think Sam knows how it is to be in Rodney's position (well for the most part) and to be honest Ellis' was clearly out of line imo. he had no right to talk to Rodney like that and this is one of those moments where Carter can show what kind of boss she really is. apparently she's the one that protects the people under her command

Agreed. It wasn't Ellis' place to reprimand Rodney. Carter has a new position now - the person in charge. Sam the scientist might not have gotten in Ellis' face, but Sam the expedition leader defended her person as any good boss should. Telling Woolsey off in The Seer was just the beginning.

ancientaction
January 5th, 2008, 02:55 PM
I'm sure Sheppard's anger was more over her allowing herself to place an innocent life in danger for such a prolonged period of time. I'm sure her withholding the knowledge of her pregnancy had something to do with it too, given that he is her commanding officer as well as her friend and both her life and the life of her baby are his responsibility. Heavy lies the crown as they say.

Colonel Ellis is kind of a dick, but he's a military man to the bone, they tend to get like that. And in his defense, McKay was beating around the bush when he should have gotten to the point.



QFT, QFE.

John as her commanding officer is responsible for her well being offworld. having her put in a risk every day, and the risk of her unborn child is a grave thing.

and yep about Ellis. but in his defence as well, he expects output per second. if it cant be offered by an 'idea' then he has to go with the next best thing.


we havn't seen much from Caldwell. the little ive seen in him, he's got a lot more respect for others, ive seen a good bit of character deveolp ment in the shorttime he has on screen

Lord Zedd
January 5th, 2008, 03:28 PM
Ellis was right. Rodney actually walked in, started his techno-babbles and in the end he said he has no solution. He should have said it in the beginning, not to pretend he has a solution for their big problem.
I agree with what you are saying. I would not liked it myself if McKay started talking to me like that and in the end had no solution. Come to the point. But than again this is a piece of McKay's character. He does that. So just say McKay come to the point : yes or no.

MFA
January 5th, 2008, 06:15 PM
I agree with what you are saying. I would not liked it myself if McKay started talking to me like that and in the end had no solution. Come to the point. But than again this is a piece of McKay's character. He does that. So just say McKay come to the point : yes or no.

Exactly, there's no point in talking to him the way Ellis did - especially the way Ellis just went on and on.


I agree with how Carter handled the situation - and believe it's a new side of her character we're seeing since she's in charge now. Definitely professional to handle "discipline" in private and not in public.

MFA
January 5th, 2008, 06:21 PM
What he said and how he did it is only natural. Firstly: You have to remember, they are friends, and that's not something you hide from them. She knew for 2 months before she told them. Teyla was wrong for not telling him. And he had hurt feelings because of it. They've already shared and have been through a lot together. It's like she didn't trust him enough or think enough of him/them to share it with him/them. And that hurts. Who knows, maybe Sheppard has more than just professional feelings for her, and this just crushed him. Secondly, even though she's not from earth, she is part of the expedition. Sheppard is responsible for her. As her commander, this was something he needed to know. Thirdly, she put her child, AND the rest of the team in danger with her omission. Obviously, with the way Sheppard stressed the importance and dangers to the child, he cares or will care about this child.



Someone else that had the same thought as I did! That was my first reaction and why I thought he reacted that way to her news.

I did want to say "what a jerk" initially, though, but after giving it some thought, agree with how he responded. I believe it was in-character for Sheppard, and yes, Teyla should have told them. I think the reason she did not, was because she KNEW she would be put on leave and taken off active duty because of her condition.


But I just LOVED Ronon's response though!!!

garhkal
January 5th, 2008, 06:23 PM
Ellis and McKay - Ellis was right in his assumptions but it was not his place to chastise Rodney.

Very true. AS a member of the military i can attest that someone else not in your chain should go through YOUR chain to chastise you.. NOT do it themselves especially with your chain right there..

Avenger
January 5th, 2008, 06:24 PM
Wow, i just thought some of the things others said to each other in this episode was not very nice,


- John shouldn't reacted that way to Teyla finally telling him about her pregnancy, he should have been happy and congragulated her and helped her figure out away to still contribute. She is not from Earth and he is not her father, he suppose to be her friend.

Not true. She is pregnant and risking the life of her child every time she stepped through the gate on a mission. Her first responsibility is to her child. Sheppard had to take her off active duty, and frankly, if I were in his place, I'd be annoyed that she hadn't been honest with me.


- What Colonel Ellis said to Rodney, implying that Rodney thinks everybody is stupid, and they wouldn't get that he doesn't have a plan fully ready, but Colonel Carter sure put Colonel Ellis in his place.

It wasn't really a surprise to me. Ellis is a no bull**** guy, and he's not too familiar with Rodney and his body of work. Cater standing up for Rodeny after everyone left was awesome.


- Also wraith humor........ what happened? i wanted to see him laugh some more.

It wouldn't have been appropriate in an episode that was so serious. No one would have been thinking humor in that situation, Wraith included.


some quotes are good and funny, but there are things that characters shouldn't have said to each other, it's against their greatness.

Life's not all fun and games, and sometimes, people react differently than they usually would because of stress, fatigue, etc. Everything that happened my have been a little out of character, or not the norm, but it was all reasonable.

MIZA
January 5th, 2008, 07:31 PM
QFT, QFE.

John as her commanding officer is responsible for her well being offworld. having her put in a risk every day, and the risk of her unborn child is a grave thing.

and yep about Ellis. but in his defence as well, he expects output per second. if it cant be offered by an 'idea' then he has to go with the next best thing.


we havn't seen much from Caldwell. the little ive seen in him, he's got a lot more respect for others, ive seen a good bit of character deveolp ment in the shorttime he has on screen


Everyone has some excellent points, and i agree with all the stuff that y'all said about Carter and Ellis and the wriath humor?
however i have to disagree with Sheppard talking to Teyla like that yes he is her commanding officer, but it was very hard for her to come at tell him this, she is Athosian not from Earth her body is very different from an Earthlings, and he should have been supportive, she is in a very emotional state now and he just yells at her like he her father , he should have put on two hats that of the congrajulatory friend and concerned commanding officer


another thing

- she pregnant , not an invalid
- and she is pregnant, not disabled, pregnant women can still work and do normal things, they just also happened to be creating life as well. ( it's multitasking) trust me i know!

starfox
January 5th, 2008, 07:33 PM
Everyone has some excellent points, and i agree with all the stuff that y'all said about Carter and Ellis and the wriath humor?
however i have to disagree with Sheppard talking to Teyla like that yes he is her commanding officer, but it was very hard for her to come at tell him this, she is Athosian not from Earth her body is very different from an Earthlings, and he should have been supportive, she is in a very emotional state now and he just yells at her like he her father , he should have put on two hats that of the congrajulatory friend and concerned commanding officer

Why does being her friend mean he has to be congratulatory? You can be a good friend while still being honest and telling someone they screwed up; IMO those are the best types of friends.

Myles
January 5th, 2008, 07:36 PM
Everyone has some excellent points, and i agree with all the stuff that y'all said about Carter and Ellis and the wriath humor?
however i have to disagree with Sheppard talking to Teyla like that yes he is her commanding officer, but it was very hard for her to come at tell him this, she is Athosian not from Earth her body is very different from an Earthlings, and he should have been supportive, she is in a very emotional state now and he just yells at her like he her father , he should have put on two hats that of the congrajulatory friend and concerned commanding officer

Well that's the thing, he's her commanding officer and responsible for her. He kinda is like her father. The first thing that came to his mind was how much danger she had been putting herself and baby in and maybe a little anger that she'd known for a while and said nothing. I personally left the scene being able to understand both sides - John's being concerned and a little harsh and Teyla not wanting to say anything because she knew it end with her being relieved of duty.

MIZA
January 5th, 2008, 07:44 PM
Why does being her friend mean he has to be congratulatory? You can be a good friend while still being honest and telling someone they screwed up; IMO those are the best types of friends.

no, he was just all around mad at her, didn't even congrajulate her and he just walked away , he needed to be supportive, he didn't even apologize!

jenks
January 5th, 2008, 08:01 PM
He had every right to be mad at her.

Avenger
January 5th, 2008, 08:08 PM
no, he was just all around mad at her, didn't even congrajulate her and he just walked away , he needed to be supportive, he didn't even apologize!

She wasn't honest with him. He has every right to be upset. Her lack of honesty has put him in a position where he was putting her unborn child harms way. Guaranteed that he would have been 100% supportive and congratulatory if she had told him the second she found out.

Willow'sCat
January 5th, 2008, 08:38 PM
Conflict is a good thing. If everyone loved everyone else all the time (at least on TV) where would the drama be?
Hmm, I suppose my only problem is that tptb write loud abusive exchanges as "drama" rather then in-depth and insightful exchanges and story lines.

I find yelling at McKay to hurry up creates a barrier between the characters rather then drama. I think the exchange between Ellis and McKay is a classic example of that, if you see "drama" as something that happen on a soap operas, then fine :cool: but I want a little more insight into why someone suddenly behaves so unprofessionally, really Ellis was out of line. It was never his call. :cool: It becomes formula to make it always McKay that gets yelled at, not drama. If there was a few lead up scene to things it might work but this out of the blue "cracking of the whip" is just poor writing and in the end it leaves me cold towards the characters, at times even McKay.

MIZA
January 5th, 2008, 08:41 PM
She wasn't honest with him. He has every right to be upset. Her lack of honesty has put him in a position where he was putting her unborn child harms way. Guaranteed that he would have been 100% supportive and congratulatory if she had told him the second she found out.

true , but it is not his business to know, i am sure she is allowed some privacy,


and that thing he said about "we get stunned all the time, shake it off"

besides that still hurts getting stunned

Myles
January 5th, 2008, 08:55 PM
true , but it is not his business to know, i am sure she is allowed some privacy,


and that thing he said about "we get stunned all the time, shake it off"

besides that still hurts getting stunned

But that's the thing, it is Sheppard's business. He is her CO, he sends her into danger all the time THINKING he knows as many variables as possible. He is now sending an extra life into that danger and he has every reason to know that.

Avenger
January 5th, 2008, 09:01 PM
Exactly. If Teyla just stayed at the city and worked a desk or something, it wouldn't matter.


Hmm, I suppose my only problem is that tptb write loud abusive exchanges as "drama" rather then in-depth and insightful exchanges and story lines.

I find yelling at McKay to hurry up creates a barrier between the characters rather then drama. I think the exchange between Ellis and McKay is a classic example of that, if you see "drama" as something that happen on a soap operas, then fine :cool: but I want a little more insight into why someone suddenly behaves so unprofessionally, really Ellis was out of line. It was never his call. :cool: It becomes formula to make it always McKay that gets yelled at, not drama. If there was a few lead up scene to things it might work but this out of the blue "cracking of the whip" is just poor writing and in the end it leaves me cold towards the characters, at times even McKay.

Ellis is a military man who's used to be given answers. Not some speech full of words but lacking any substance. No one under Ellis' command would have come up to him and babbled his or her way through that conversation. The exchange is quite what I would expect given that Ellis hasn't been around Atlantis very much and hasn't worked directly with McKay.

kymeric
January 5th, 2008, 09:02 PM
Wow, i just thought some of the things others said to each other in this episode was not very nice,


- John shouldn't reacted that way to Teyla finally telling him about her pregnancy, he should have been happy and congragulated her and helped her figure out away to still contribute. She is not from Earth and he is not her father, he suppose to be her friend.

- What Colonel Ellis said to Rodney, implying that Rodney thinks everybody is stupid, and they wouldn't get that he doesn't have a plan fully ready, but Colonel Carter sure put Colonel Ellis in his place.

- Also wraith humor........ what happened? i wanted to see him laugh some more.

some quotes are good and funny, but there are things that characters shouldn't have said to each other, it's against their greatness.

so tell me what you think !!

How about its his fault a pregnant women he cares for just got tasered because of him? WTF id freak out too. At the very least he feels like an uncle, if hes willing to die for the mother just imagine wut he would do for the kid.

Off active duty dosent mean shes leaving, sadly she has nowhere else to go.

Jeffala
January 5th, 2008, 11:38 PM
First and foremost he's her commanding officer, she let him send her out on missions while she was pregnant, what if something had happened to the baby? I'm not surprised how he reacted to be honest, he had every right to be furious.

I agree. I would have been pissed, too. I'm actually surprised that Dr. Keller didn't inform her superior, Col. Carter, that Teyla was no longer fit for duty. Teyla may think that she is, but I doubt that Carter would feel the same way and I don't see how Keller can either. When you're three months pregnant, you simply don't go into Wraith hiveships like it an ordinary Tuesday.



Agreed. It wasn't Ellis' place to reprimand Rodney. Carter has a new position now - the person in charge. Sam the scientist might not have gotten in Ellis' face, but Sam the expedition leader defended her person as any good boss should

Sam the expedition leader should have shut Rodney down earlier so that Ellis didn't have to call BS on him.

I personally loved Ellis's taking McKay down a peg or two.

Freekzilla
January 6th, 2008, 01:44 AM
Everyone has some excellent points, and i agree with all the stuff that y'all said about Carter and Ellis and the wriath humor?
however i have to disagree with Sheppard talking to Teyla like that yes he is her commanding officer, but it was very hard for her to come at tell him this, she is Athosian not from Earth her body is very different from an Earthlings, and he should have been supportive, she is in a very emotional state now and he just yells at her like he her father , he should have put on two hats that of the congrajulatory friend and concerned commanding officer

another thing

- she pregnant , not an invalid
- and she is pregnant, not disabled, pregnant women can still work and do normal things, they just also happened to be creating life as well. ( it's multitasking) trust me i know!


no, he was just all around mad at her, didn't even congrajulate her and he just walked away , he needed to be supportive, he didn't even apologize!

Oh please. That's just ridiculous. This isn't the Waltons and she isn't a paper pusher. She's part of an exploratory team that frequently is put in danger.

She can have her personal life and her professional life, and they can be kept seperate. But once her personal life interferes with her professional life, it IS Sheppard's business. She's a member of HIS team. She put both her and her child's life in danger, and because she is not 100%, she put the team's lives in danger too.

Whether or not she could complete the tasks is irrelevant. She had an obligation to be forthcoming, and she didn't. And I wouldn't call what they do "normal" tasks. You don't see many pregnant women flying bombing missions in a fighter jet, running an obstacle course in basic training, or competing in the olympics. And there's good reason.

Also, when you deal with the military, you have to remember that information flows up, not down. In real life, if a woman who is in the military becomes pregnant, her commanding officer is always notified. The person in charge needs to have all and the best information possible.

Furthermore, whether or not she is from earth, she is still mostly human. It's not like she is a klingon or anything. Which brings up another point. She does have some Wraith DNA in her. That could complicate her pregnancy. Which is another reason she should have been forthcoming. But she didn't.

It's kinda like you're walking out the door with a friend to go see a movie and have dinner, but just before you get outside they tell you they have no money and they're sick and have been vomitting all day. But they never said anything to you all day about it when you talked to them on the phone. Instead they waited until the last minute to say something. And thus throwing the plans into chaos, as now you have to worry about them getting sick in your car, at dinner, during the movie, plus you now have to run to the ATM so they can get money or you'll have to pick up the tab, and since it's an extra trip, you now have to get gas too. I think you'd be just a bit annoyed with that person for not telling you before hand, don't you?

And another thing, being pregnant is not debilitating, but, you are bringing a child into potentially dangerous situations. Would you bring your already born child on missions with you? Whether the child is born or not, it would be the same thing. That's the point. It's irresponsible, and downright reckless. I'm sure the father would have objected had he been there. What about his feelings? If I had been Sheppard, I would have reacted the same way, if not worse. I may have unloaded with both barrels on her. She showed incredibly poor judgement.

Ehecatl
January 6th, 2008, 02:25 AM
I think John reacted fairly well to Teyla's news. She knowingly compromised herself and her child and hardly made an effort to tell anyone of her situation. And why didn't Dr. Keller tell Carter isn't that against regulations. John was concerned, surprised and her cares for Teyla's well being so it was an honest and loyal reaction to the news.

g.o.d
January 6th, 2008, 03:49 AM
I think Sheppard was also very disappointed by Teyla's timing. She was aware of her pregnancy for two months and she didn't bother to tell him that. They've been building their relationship for almost 4 years and htey'Ve became close friends and obviously have some feelings for each other

P-90_177
January 6th, 2008, 04:53 AM
I think it was a pretty natural reaction. I mean a pregnancy is a pretty sensitve posistion to be in the first place. Even though I can see her reasoning teyla shouldn't have been going off world. I think part of johns strong reaction was simply that teyla had been putting herself and her baby in so much danger.

Klenotka
January 6th, 2008, 05:21 AM
- John shouldn't reacted that way to Teyla finally telling him about her pregnancy, he should have been happy and congragulated her and helped her figure out away to still contribute. She is not from Earth and he is not her father, he suppose to be her friend.

I think he reacted very well. It was the only Sheppard´s scene I really liked in this episode. It might be Teyla´s baby, health and body, but she is part of his team and he is her commander. He had right to know, not mention the fact that her condition might get them all into trouble. What if something went wrong in the mission and she needed medical attention? And I think he felt disappointed that she didn´t tell him because they are good friends. He might think that she doesn´t trust him.


- What Colonel Ellis said to Rodney, implying that Rodney thinks everybody is stupid, and they wouldn't get that he doesn't have a plan fully ready, but Colonel Carter sure put Colonel Ellis in his place.

I don´t like Ellis too much. He acted as a jerk in First Strike. But I take it that he is a military commander and is used to some order of things. He was right but it is no reason to act to someone, who he barely knows, like that. McKay is under command of someone else and Ellis remided me some high-school jerk, who is trying to play with weaker student. And to Rodney´s defense , he is a scientist and is looking for scientific solutions. We know he doesn´t like military style much. He has been working at the code for weeks, hell, his sister almost died in the process, so no wonder that he doesn´t want to throw the work from window.


some quotes are good and funny, but there are things that characters shouldn't have said to each other, it's against their greatness.

I hoped that Sheppard will support Rodney more. He pointed to Rodney in the meeting and said "we trust...Rodney" and he hesitated. Come on, John, you made also very wrong decisions and people still trust you, so get over Rodney´s mistakes, too.
I liked the scene in the end between them, thougt.


so tell me what you think !!
I just did :)

MIZA
January 6th, 2008, 08:18 PM
Oh please. That's just ridiculous. This isn't the Waltons and she isn't a paper pusher. She's part of an exploratory team that frequently is put in danger.

She can have her personal life and her professional life, and they can be kept seperate. But once her personal life interferes with her professional life, it IS Sheppard's business. She's a member of HIS team. She put both her and her child's life in danger, and because she is not 100%, she put the team's lives in danger too.

Whether or not she could complete the tasks is irrelevant. She had an obligation to be forthcoming, and she didn't. And I wouldn't call what they do "normal" tasks. You don't see many pregnant women flying bombing missions in a fighter jet, running an obstacle course in basic training, or competing in the olympics. And there's good reason.

Also, when you deal with the military, you have to remember that information flows up, not down. In real life, if a woman who is in the military becomes pregnant, her commanding officer is always notified. The person in charge needs to have all and the best information possible.

Furthermore, whether or not she is from earth, she is still mostly human. It's not like she is a klingon or anything. Which brings up another point. She does have some Wraith DNA in her. That could complicate her pregnancy. Which is another reason she should have been forthcoming. But she didn't.

It's kinda like you're walking out the door with a friend to go see a movie and have dinner, but just before you get outside they tell you they have no money and they're sick and have been vomitting all day. But they never said anything to you all day about it when you talked to them on the phone. Instead they waited until the last minute to say something. And thus throwing the plans into chaos, as now you have to worry about them getting sick in your car, at dinner, during the movie, plus you now have to run to the ATM so they can get money or you'll have to pick up the tab, and since it's an extra trip, you now have to get gas too. I think you'd be just a bit annoyed with that person for not telling you before hand, don't you?

And another thing, being pregnant is not debilitating, but, you are bringing a child into potentially dangerous situations. Would you bring your already born child on missions with you? Whether the child is born or not, it would be the same thing. That's the point. It's irresponsible, and downright reckless. I'm sure the father would have objected had he been there. What about his feelings? If I had been Sheppard, I would have reacted the same way, if not worse. I may have unloaded with both barrels on her. She showed incredibly poor judgement.



you make very good points, but i think he should have been a little nicer to her, instead of just yelling at her in front of the team, even Carter who is his boss reacted alot nicer and professional about it

Amalthea
January 6th, 2008, 08:34 PM
Colonel Ellis was annoyed with Rodney (understandably) but it wasn't his place to be so insulting. He told him to stop once, that was enough. Questioning his manhood was just immature.

Teyla hiding her pregnancy was, from her perspective, culturally sound. She attempted to say herself that Athosian women are active late into their pregnancies. And obviously, their lives were in constant danger as well. And it was her choice! He should have at least been like Ronan and then been upset about her putting herself in danger. This way he just came off as a cavemen.

jenks
January 6th, 2008, 08:47 PM
I'd say he came off as professional, and she came off as irresponsible.

Jeffala
January 6th, 2008, 08:48 PM
Teyla hiding her pregnancy was, from her perspective, culturally sound. She attempted to say herself that Athosian women are active late into their pregnancies. And obviously, their lives were in constant danger as well. And it was her choice! He should have at least been like Ronan and then been upset about her putting herself in danger. This way he just came off as a cavemen.

I can't believe that the Athosian's idea of "staying physically active" includes openly and unnecessarily courting danger.

It's one thing to live near the lion's den but it's another to dress up like a gazelle and prance around outside of it.

Amalthea
January 6th, 2008, 08:51 PM
I can't believe that the Athosian's idea of "staying physically active" includes openly and unnecessarily courting danger.

It's one thing to live near the lion's den but it's another to dress up like a gazelle and prance around outside of it.

True, but it's her pregnancy. If she thought she was being reckless, she wouldn't have done it. She wants her baby to survive as badly as Shep does!

Freekzilla
January 6th, 2008, 09:54 PM
Colonel Ellis was annoyed with Rodney (understandably) but it wasn't his place to be so insulting. He told him to stop once, that was enough. Questioning his manhood was just immature.

Teyla hiding her pregnancy was, from her perspective, culturally sound. She attempted to say herself that Athosian women are active late into their pregnancies. And obviously, their lives were in constant danger as well. And it was her choice! He should have at least been like Ronan and then been upset about her putting herself in danger. This way he just came off as a cavemen.

Insulting? And there's nothing about Rodney that isn't insulting? He insults people on a daily basis. 'Bout time he got a taste of his own medicine. He can dish it out but he can't take it at all. If you ask me, there's no way I'd ever have Rodney in charge of anything. He's better off just working as a scientist and leaving the administrative/leadership duties to someone who is competent in that area.

Oh, so when a guy finds out some shocking info where he's basically been lied to for 2 months when supposedly there was a trusting relationship and he ends up reacting a bit upset about it, that makes him a caveman? Give me a break! *shakes head* What Teyla did was wrong, plain and simple. She's been with them long enough to know that their culture is different, and they have rules and guidlines that she has to follow if she wants to continue as a member of the expedition. Besides basically lying to Sheppard and the rest of the team, she was reckless and put everyone's lives in danger needlessly. But she's not alone when it comes to blame. Keller should have informed Carter or atleast Sheppard that Teyla was no longer fit for active duty and put on limited duty instead. No reason why would have needed to be revealed as it would be between the doctor and patient, but atleast notification to Teyla's superiors was warranted. Sheppard acted well within reason given the circumstances.

On a side note, I'm not sure if anyone has noticed this, but a lot of the opinions seem to be falling generally along gender lines. It's not absolute and clearcut, but there is a general consensus with most men on one side of these issues, and women on the other. I'm not trying to stir up trouble or anything, but I find it both interesting and a bit troubling. We all saw the same thing, yet perceived it differently. How much of it comes from personal preferences, and how much can be attributed to personal experiences affecting perceptions? It's kinda like asking 100 people exactly what color the sky is; you'll get about 50 different answers. It just questions what is the truth, and what is our truth. Just something to ponder.

starfox
January 6th, 2008, 11:05 PM
On a side note, I'm not sure if anyone has noticed this, but a lot of the opinions seem to be falling generally along gender lines. It's not absolute and clearcut, but there is a general consensus with most men on one side of these issues, and women on the other. I'm not trying to stir up trouble or anything, but I find it both interesting and a bit troubling. We all saw the same thing, yet perceived it differently. How much of it comes from personal preferences, and how much can be attributed to personal experiences affecting perceptions? It's kinda like asking 100 people exactly what color the sky is; you'll get about 50 different answers. It just questions what is the truth, and what is our truth. Just something to ponder.

It's also interesting how some people are making it a pro-life v. pro-choice issue and others a team safety issue. It's interesting how politics worm their way into these discussions.

Avenger
January 7th, 2008, 12:51 AM
True, but it's her pregnancy. If she thought she was being reckless, she wouldn't have done it. She wants her baby to survive as badly as Shep does!

Sheppard was upset because he had been putting an unborn child in harm's way for 2 months, including the last mission where Teyla was shot by a Wraith stunner that might have harmed or killed the unborn child. He has every reason to be upset with Teyla.

Linzi
January 7th, 2008, 02:54 AM
It's also interesting how some people are making it a pro-life v. pro-choice issue and others a team safety issue. It's interesting how politics worm their way into these discussions.
It's very strange isn't it?

Pro life? How on Earth did that get into the conversation? :lol: Sheppard is Teyla's CO. Thus she abides by the rules of his team. He's military and pregnant women aren't allowed on the front lines, pure and simple. She could be a liability in so many ways. Thus he wasn't being unkind or pro life or sexist or anything. He was abiding by military rules and plain common sense.

Maybe some females here want to make this into a male/female gender issue, but as a mother of three children myself, I would NEVER put myself and my unborn child in the situations Teyla has. Common sense dictates if you go on potentially dangerous away missions that you endanger your child and yourself - just your desire to protect your child could change the way you act - you might hesitate to perform your duties and put your team at risk, for example. Certainly if your team knew of your condition they'd behave differently towards you, and they'd surely be less likely to want to risk your health and not ask you to take risks which sometimes are necessary etc.

One hit in the stomach, and Teyla could have potentially miscarried, not only losing her baby, but possibly putting her own health at risk, in terms of haemorrhaging etc. I doubt very much Athosian pregnant women would ever be on the front lines, would they? Being attacked or culled by the wraith doesn't count, because there's no avoiding it. Yes, by all means women should remain active when pregnant, I certainly did. But, also, they should take care of themselves and be cautious with over exerting themselves physically. Certainly being stunned DOES present a danger. For one, you could fall awkwardly and miscarry, let alone what dangers a stunning in itself could have for a pregnancy.

Thus I didn't feel Sheppard's words were harsh. He was concerned, angry and hurt. I don't blame him. Though I understand Teyla's reluctance to reveal her private news, she was unwise and irresponsible not to do so and Sheppard had every right to be annoyed.

geewillie86
January 7th, 2008, 03:31 AM
Colonel Ellis has come across as "stand-offish" from the beginning. It doesn't surprise me that he would lash out at Rodney the way he did. Its an interesting distinction between him and the other ship commanders. At the very least, it gave Carter the chance to bite his head off for it. I was laughing all the way through the commercials.

In Teyla's situation, I was a bit surprised at Sheppard's reaction. However, it made sense to me. She may not be in the military, but she participates in a military capacity. There are rules to follow and she broke them. It may not have been the most pleasant of scenes, but I welcome the dramatic moments such as those. The team was under a lot of pressure and its only natural to have moments where people aren't exactly chipper.

I think that this was one of the best episodes this season.

StarSkimmer
January 7th, 2008, 09:49 AM
Insulting? And there's nothing about Rodney that isn't insulting? He insults people on a daily basis. 'Bout time he got a taste of his own medicine. He can dish it out but he can't take it at all.

Maybe, but Rodney doesn't really -mean- his insults. In BAMSR, we saw how Rodney constantly insults Zelenka - but Radek doesn't even bat an eye. Because he's used to it? Nope, I think it's cause he knows Rodney doesn't really mean it.

Rodney can be rude, abrasive, irritating and whiny, but when push comes to shove, he can and does put his life and health on the line for his teammates and friends. We saw this as early as "Hide and Seek", and have continued to see it up to "Miller's Crossing" when

he offers to trade his life for Jeannie's.

Rodney's one of the most popular characters on Atlantis for a reason - he *is* brave and self-sacrificing, but you have to look to see it. He's not perfect like some characters (*coughCarter!cough*). He has flaws and insecurities, and he insults people. You could also argue that he's arrogant - and he is, but he also wants the approval from his peers and friends. Maybe Ellis was right, and he was drawing out the explanation just to show off; but it wasn't too make everyone else feel stupid. Rodney wants approval, and he does it by trying to get people to admire his genius. Of course, then he comes off as arrogant and condescending, so not the best approach. And it's easy to see why Ellis got annoyed.

What made a lot of people angry at Ellis is the fact that (1) Ellis is new to Atlantis; he doesn't know Rodney at all, and he immediately judges him after only a few minutes of putting up with him. (2) Again, Rodney wasn't really trying to make everyone else feel stupid - sure, he was taking an abnormally long amount of time explaining things, but did you see his enthusiasm? He loves what he does, the complicated science and impossible theories, and he probably assumes that everyone else will get it and find it interesting - and, of course, give him praise for his brilliance. :P And again, I think it shows his need for approval.

Hmm... now that I re-read this, it comes across as a lecture from a Rodney!fan. :S It wasn't meant to be (I swear, I'm not a crazy Rodney!fan), it was supposed to be an explanation for why some people now dislike Ellis, and it was sort of my own musing on why people got offended.

Me, I could almost start liking Carter for defending McKay. Almost. ;)


On a side note, I'm not sure if anyone has noticed this, but a lot of the opinions seem to be falling generally along gender lines. It's not absolute and clearcut, but there is a general consensus with most men on one side of these issues, and women on the other. I'm not trying to stir up trouble or anything, but I find it both interesting and a bit troubling. We all saw the same thing, yet perceived it differently. How much of it comes from personal preferences, and how much can be attributed to personal experiences affecting perceptions? It's kinda like asking 100 people exactly what color the sky is; you'll get about 50 different answers. It just questions what is the truth, and what is our truth. Just something to ponder.

Really? I didn't notice... which side are the men on? Or the women? (Honest question here, I have no idea. :S I'm guessing the guys think that Teyla should have told him, and the gals thought he overreacted? Or is it the other way around? -is sheepish-)

Personally I think Sheppard's reaction was totally justified, and that he wasn't overreacting or "mean" at all (mean? lol, give me a break)... but at the same time, I think Teyla probably had her reasons for not telling them. I mean, she's lost all of her people, not to mention this Kanan person, and it must be hard on her - she probably always expected that if and when she ever got pregnant, her people would be with her to celebrate, but they're not. (Emotional hardship, anyone?) Maybe she wanted to find them before telling her team? Maybe there's some Athosian custom saying the father should be the first to find out? Who knows...

Not to mention the Athosians have a completely different culture. They face death and danger from the Wraith on a regular basis - maybe, for Teyla, continuing to go on missions was normal. :sam34:

Anyway... I'm hoping the next episode will address this more (as in, a scene with Teyla and Sheppard! C'mon, TPTB!) and not do what they did after "Trinity" (as in, have Sheppard "loose his trust" in Rodney, only to have things fine 'n' dandy in the next episode).

Ruffles
January 7th, 2008, 10:56 AM
Everyone has some excellent points, and i agree with all the stuff that y'all said about Carter and Ellis and the wriath humor?
however i have to disagree with Sheppard talking to Teyla like that yes he is her commanding officer, but it was very hard for her to come at tell him this, she is Athosian not from Earth her body is very different from an Earthlings, and he should have been supportive, she is in a very emotional state now and he just yells at her like he her father , he should have put on two hats that of the congrajulatory friend and concerned commanding officer


another thing

- she pregnant , not an invalid
- and she is pregnant, not disabled, pregnant women can still work and do normal things, they just also happened to be creating life as well. ( it's multitasking) trust me i know!

Her body is different than an Earthling's? Other than a tiny bit of Wraith DNA (which makes her as different as Sheppard's ATA gene does), how is her body different?

Keep in mind the timing of her admission. John will eventually cool down and congratulate her. But as her commanding officer, he needed to know about her health and had every right to give her the a**-chewing she deserved.


Hmm, I suppose my only problem is that tptb write loud abusive exchanges as "drama" rather then in-depth and insightful exchanges and story lines.

I find yelling at McKay to hurry up creates a barrier between the characters rather then drama. I think the exchange between Ellis and McKay is a classic example of that, if you see "drama" as something that happen on a soap operas, then fine :cool: but I want a little more insight into why someone suddenly behaves so unprofessionally, really Ellis was out of line. It was never his call. :cool: It becomes formula to make it always McKay that gets yelled at, not drama. If there was a few lead up scene to things it might work but this out of the blue "cracking of the whip" is just poor writing and in the end it leaves me cold towards the characters, at times even McKay.

But I think that barrier created between the characters is what makes the drama. It has been well established that threatening McKay's life prods him to work faster. The exchange with Ellis was in character for both of them - McKay insisting he could do something he couldn't (shades of Trinity) and Ellis not wanting to listen to the full explanation (shades of First Strike). Ellis was completely out of line in his approach, but he was correct in what he said - McKay has been working on the code for weeks with no success. Ellis walked into Atlantis in First Strike and acted like he owned the place. He did the same thing here but got slapped for it.


Sam the expedition leader should have shut Rodney down earlier so that Ellis didn't have to call BS on him.

I personally loved Ellis's taking McKay down a peg or two.

I agree with you about Sam. It was her responsibility to correct McKay, and she should have done it sooner, but I think that's her newness of command showing through. She was also right in telling Ellis off. It wasn't his place (and he's been around long enough to know it).


Colonel Ellis was annoyed with Rodney (understandably) but it wasn't his place to be so insulting. He told him to stop once, that was enough. Questioning his manhood was just immature.

Teyla hiding her pregnancy was, from her perspective, culturally sound. She attempted to say herself that Athosian women are active late into their pregnancies. And obviously, their lives were in constant danger as well. And it was her choice! He should have at least been like Ronan and then been upset about her putting herself in danger. This way he just came off as a cavemen.

It's one thing to be active. It's another thing to strap on a P-90 and head into the heart of Wraith territory for a meeting. If she were still on Athos and facing a culling, she would have no choice but to fight. Here, she has made the choice to hide her pregnancy and to continually put herself and her child in danger.

I didn't find Sheppard's actions to be caveman-like in the least. He expects her to pull her weight - telling her to shake off the stunning and get a move-on. He's never treated her as "The Girl". He'd give Ronon or McKay the same dressing down if they went on a mission without revealing a physical condition that could endanger their lives.

MIZA
January 7th, 2008, 12:52 PM
i guess if i were Teyla and known that he would have reacted that way, she could have gotten sneaky and told it him she just wasn't feeling well and just gone to the infirmary together, and they could have found out altogether ??

Ruffles
January 7th, 2008, 01:31 PM
i guess if i were Teyla and known that he would have reacted that way, she could have gotten sneaky and told it him she just wasn't feeling well and just gone to the infirmary together, and they could have found out altogether ??

But sneaky isn't Teyla's way. I think she was waiting for the right moment, and it just never came. And I think she was holding out on purpose: first to continue searching for her people and then she felt needed in the evacuation of the planets being targeted by the replicators since she was the one person the leaders of most of those worlds knew. She avoided telling him for a reason.

I don't think his reaction would have been as strong if they hadn't just come back from Wraith territory after getting stunned. He would have been angry and hurt but perhaps not quite as vocal.

Freekzilla
January 7th, 2008, 01:32 PM
It's very strange isn't it?

Pro life? How on Earth did that get into the conversation? :lol: Sheppard is Teyla's CO. Thus she abides by the rules of his team. He's military and pregnant women aren't allowed on the front lines, pure and simple. She could be a liability in so many ways. Thus he wasn't being unkind or pro life or sexist or anything. He was abiding by military rules and plain common sense.

Maybe some females here want to make this into a male/female gender issue, but as a mother of three children myself, I would NEVER put myself and my unborn child in the situations Teyla has. Common sense dictates if you go on potentially dangerous away missions that you endanger your child and yourself - just your desire to protect your child could change the way you act - you might hesitate to perform your duties and put your team at risk, for example. Certainly if your team knew of your condition they'd behave differently towards you, and they'd surely be less likely to want to risk your health and not ask you to take risks which sometimes are necessary etc.

One hit in the stomach, and Teyla could have potentially miscarried, not only losing her baby, but possibly putting her own health at risk, in terms of haemorrhaging etc. I doubt very much Athosian pregnant women would ever be on the front lines, would they? Being attacked or culled by the wraith doesn't count, because there's no avoiding it. Yes, by all means women should remain active when pregnant, I certainly did. But, also, they should take care of themselves and be cautious with over exerting themselves physically. Certainly being stunned DOES present a danger. For one, you could fall awkwardly and miscarry, let alone what dangers a stunning in itself could have for a pregnancy.

Thus I didn't feel Sheppard's words were harsh. He was concerned, angry and hurt. I don't blame him. Though I understand Teyla's reluctance to reveal her private news, she was unwise and irresponsible not to do so and Sheppard had every right to be annoyed.

Excellent Post Linzi! *Stands in applause* Can't say enough for rational, thoughtful and thorough posts like this.


Colonel Ellis has come across as "stand-offish" from the beginning. It doesn't surprise me that he would lash out at Rodney the way he did. Its an interesting distinction between him and the other ship commanders. At the very least, it gave Carter the chance to bite his head off for it. I was laughing all the way through the commercials.

In Teyla's situation, I was a bit surprised at Sheppard's reaction. However, it made sense to me. She may not be in the military, but she participates in a military capacity. There are rules to follow and she broke them. It may not have been the most pleasant of scenes, but I welcome the dramatic moments such as those. The team was under a lot of pressure and its only natural to have moments where people aren't exactly chipper.

I think that this was one of the best episodes this season.

Seconded. It certainly was exciting. And may I point out that, I think it's good that Ellis is a bit stand-off-ish and a bit brash. He's definitely career military and a by-the-book man. It is a nice contrast to the more laid back characters that have occupied Atlantis, with a few exceptions of course. (Rodney, Kavanaugh) Even Caldwell has mellowed out a bit. In my opinion, there is always 4 groups to every situation: the good-good guys, the bad-bad guys, the sorta-good guys, and the sorta-bad guys. Ellis is the sorta-good guy, and even Todd is a sorta-bad guy and not truly a bad-bad. This adds complexity and depth to the situations, which make for better stories. The plain jane vanilla good vs. bad is boring and played out. I think Ellis respects McKay's accomplishments, but not his style. And I'd agree.


Maybe, but Rodney doesn't really -mean- his insults. In BAMSR, we saw how Rodney constantly insults Zelenka - but Radek doesn't even bat an eye. Because he's used to it? Nope, I think it's cause he knows Rodney doesn't really mean it.

Rodney can be rude, abrasive, irritating and whiny, but when push comes to shove, he can and does put his life and health on the line for his teammates and friends. We saw this as early as "Hide and Seek", and have continued to see it up to "Miller's Crossing" when

he offers to trade his life for Jeannie's.

Rodney's one of the most popular characters on Atlantis for a reason - he *is* brave and self-sacrificing, but you have to look to see it. He's not perfect like some characters (*coughCarter!cough*). He has flaws and insecurities, and he insults people. You could also argue that he's arrogant - and he is, but he also wants the approval from his peers and friends. Maybe Ellis was right, and he was drawing out the explanation just to show off; but it wasn't too make everyone else feel stupid. Rodney wants approval, and he does it by trying to get people to admire his genius. Of course, then he comes off as arrogant and condescending, so not the best approach. And it's easy to see why Ellis got annoyed.

What made a lot of people angry at Ellis is the fact that (1) Ellis is new to Atlantis; he doesn't know Rodney at all, and he immediately judges him after only a few minutes of putting up with him. (2) Again, Rodney wasn't really trying to make everyone else feel stupid - sure, he was taking an abnormally long amount of time explaining things, but did you see his enthusiasm? He loves what he does, the complicated science and impossible theories, and he probably assumes that everyone else will get it and find it interesting - and, of course, give him praise for his brilliance. :P And again, I think it shows his need for approval.

Hmm... now that I re-read this, it comes across as a lecture from a Rodney!fan. :S It wasn't meant to be (I swear, I'm not a crazy Rodney!fan), it was supposed to be an explanation for why some people now dislike Ellis, and it was sort of my own musing on why people got offended.

Me, I could almost start liking Carter for defending McKay. Almost. ;)

Really? I didn't notice... which side are the men on? Or the women? (Honest question here, I have no idea. :S I'm guessing the guys think that Teyla should have told him, and the gals thought he overreacted? Or is it the other way around? -is sheepish-)

Personally I think Sheppard's reaction was totally justified, and that he wasn't overreacting or "mean" at all (mean? lol, give me a break)... but at the same time, I think Teyla probably had her reasons for not telling them. I mean, she's lost all of her people, not to mention this Kanan person, and it must be hard on her - she probably always expected that if and when she ever got pregnant, her people would be with her to celebrate, but they're not. (Emotional hardship, anyone?) Maybe she wanted to find them before telling her team? Maybe there's some Athosian custom saying the father should be the first to find out? Who knows...

Not to mention the Athosians have a completely different culture. They face death and danger from the Wraith on a regular basis - maybe, for Teyla, continuing to go on missions was normal. :sam34:

Anyway... I'm hoping the next episode will address this more (as in, a scene with Teyla and Sheppard! C'mon, TPTB!) and not do what they did after "Trinity" (as in, have Sheppard "loose his trust" in Rodney, only to have things fine 'n' dandy in the next episode).

Regardless of whether Rodney means it or not, it's still insulting. Maybe Ellis doesn't mean it either, and is just using psychology to push Rodney into coming up with a miracle. You can't dismiss Rodney's insults and rants just because you know him and are used to it. It's inexcusable, and Ellis called him on it by dishing it back out to Rodney and he couldn't handle it. If you can't take it then don't dish it out. And as far as Ellis insulting Rodney's manhood, he does have a point. Rodney does act a bit childish in social interactions. Even McKay's sister has yelled at him for that. BUT, I will agree that Ellis did cross the line a little in breaking the chain of command. It should have been Carter to reprimand McKay. But I don't think she's quite ready to do that yet, so someone else had to. She will in time. Rodney is bound to piss her off sooner or later. He does tend to do that to everyone.


Her body is different than an Earthling's? Other than a tiny bit of Wraith DNA (which makes her as different as Sheppard's ATA gene does), how is her body different?

Keep in mind the timing of her admission. John will eventually cool down and congratulate her. But as her commanding officer, he needed to know about her health and had every right to give her the a**-chewing she deserved.

But I think that barrier created between the characters is what makes the drama. It has been well established that threatening McKay's life prods him to work faster. The exchange with Ellis was in character for both of them - McKay insisting he could do something he couldn't (shades of Trinity) and Ellis not wanting to listen to the full explanation (shades of First Strike). Ellis was completely out of line in his approach, but he was correct in what he said - McKay has been working on the code for weeks with no success. Ellis walked into Atlantis in First Strike and acted like he owned the place. He did the same thing here but got slapped for it.

I agree with you about Sam. It was her responsibility to correct McKay, and she should have done it sooner, but I think that's her newness of command showing through. She was also right in telling Ellis off. It wasn't his place (and he's been around long enough to know it).

It's one thing to be active. It's another thing to strap on a P-90 and head into the heart of Wraith territory for a meeting. If she were still on Athos and facing a culling, she would have no choice but to fight. Here, she has made the choice to hide her pregnancy and to continually put herself and her child in danger.

I didn't find Sheppard's actions to be caveman-like in the least. He expects her to pull her weight - telling her to shake off the stunning and get a move-on. He's never treated her as "The Girl". He'd give Ronon or McKay the same dressing down if they went on a mission without revealing a physical condition that could endanger their lives.

I don't think McKay is as brave as you think he is. I think it was more guilt than anything. And by being willing to sacrifice his own life for Jeannie, he isn't actually being self sacrificing in a way, as it would also be seen as a grande sacrifice worthy of praise. And we all know how much Rodney loves to be praised and have his ego stroked. It's always all about himself with Rodney. In his mind, everything revolves around him. Did you see how arrogant he was when the new leader of Atlantis was going to be announced? He was sure it would be him, over EVERYONE else. He's not a good leader for anything, and not an example for anyone to follow. And this makes me dislike Rodney more and more as time goes on. He's what I call book smart, street stupid. Now, I like Rodney and all his quirks and character, but I do think he needs to tone it down and clean up his act a bit. Those quirks are starting to wear on me and I am liking him less and less as time goes on. I'm just suprized that noone (Ronon, Sheppard, or a whole host of other people) has knocked Rodney out yet. It's coming though. And I'll bet you it will be Carter that does it too, infront of a very shocked Ronon and Sheppard. :D

Ruffles
January 7th, 2008, 01:53 PM
I don't think McKay is as brave as you think he is. I think it was more guilt than anything. And by being willing to sacrifice his own life for Jeannie, he isn't actually being self sacrificing in a way, as it would also be seen as a grande sacrifice worthy of praise. And we all know how much Rodney loves to be praised and have his ego stroked. It's always all about himself with Rodney. In his mind, everything revolves around him. Did you see how arrogant he was when the new leader of Atlantis was going to be announced? He was sure it would be him, over EVERYONE else. He's not a good leader for anything, and not an example for anyone to follow. And this makes me dislike Rodney more and more as time goes on. He's what I call book smart, street stupid. Now, I like Rodney and all his quirks and character, but I do think he needs to tone it down and clean up his act a bit. Those quirks are starting to wear on me and I am liking him less and less as time goes on. I'm just suprized that noone (Ronon, Sheppard, or a whole host of other people) has knocked Rodney out yet. It's coming though. And I'll bet you it will be Carter that does it too, infront of a very shocked Ronon and Sheppard. :D

*reads back through post* I don't recall mentioning McKay being brave. I said threatening his life makes him work faster - the running joke through several eps (Inferno, Pegasus Project from SG-1, etc). Even McKay mentions it in BAMSR (followed by the Wraith threatening to feed on him).

I will agree with you that Rodney is incredibly arrogant and does seem to think the universe revolves around him (or, like he told Kolya, that all of his plans will work). His ego knows no bounds, and that's a point that comes up regularly. It's very hard for him to accept that he doesn't always have the answer (see Trinity, Grace Under Pressure, and Adrift/Lifeline for examples).

But underneath it all I do think McKay is quite brave. He stepped through the gate to go to another galaxy. He serves on an SG team. We see him on several occasions make decisions that could result in his death (wading into the energy creature in Hide and Seek, trying to convince Ford to get into the event horizon before the gate cuts off in 38 Minutes, attacking a Wraith in The Defiant One, trying until the last minute to save the city in Before I Sleep, arguing with Lorne to stay behind in The Ark, being reattached to the entity in Doppleganger, offering his life for his sister's in Miller's Crossing). I suppose you can look on it as he would receive praise for his sacrifice, but he wouldn't know it because he'd be dead.

I've found McKay to be much more mature (not always, but for the most part) in S4. His technobabble and grandstanding in BAMSR is one of the few times we've seen that so far this season.

MIZA
January 7th, 2008, 02:34 PM
well i hope in the next episode he is a little more supportive, it looks like she is still contributing though, so i guess after he cooled off he apologized for blowing up like that

Jeffala
January 7th, 2008, 02:57 PM
well i hope in the next episode he is a little more supportive, it looks like she is still contributing though, so i guess after he cooled off he apologized for blowing up like that

Or the fact that she's the only one who can fly a Wratih ship doesn't give him any choice.

(source: 302: "Misbegotten" (http://gateworld.net/atlantis/s3/302.shtml))

MIZA
January 7th, 2008, 03:31 PM
still she is doing something? he ain't that mad at her

jelgate
January 7th, 2008, 04:13 PM
Based on the MGM promo for Spoils of War, it looks like they are going to revisit Teyla's pregnancy and Sheppard.

Icedragon
January 7th, 2008, 07:39 PM
I wouldn't say that at all. She was giving him sexy eyes, she's just playing the ice queen.

I agree, she wants him bad.

garhkal
January 7th, 2008, 11:28 PM
I don't think McKay is as brave as you think he is. I think it was more guilt than anything. And by being willing to sacrifice his own life for Jeannie, he isn't actually being self sacrificing in a way, as it would also be seen as a grande sacrifice worthy of praise. And we all know how much Rodney loves to be praised and have his ego stroked. It's always all about himself with Rodney.

What about in season 1 Hide and Seak, he willingly went into the black energy cloud thinggy to toss the naquida generator through the gate, knowing full well, his shield may not have protected him all the way (or it would and he would die from lack of food/water). Or later on in season 1, in that 'wier back in time episode. In the ;first run of them coming to atlatis, he died staying at his station trying to over ride safeties to allow others to escape/survive.


I'm just suprized that noone (Ronon, Sheppard, or a whole host of other people) has knocked Rodney out yet. It's coming though. And I'll bet you it will be Carter that does it too, infront of a very shocked Ronon and Sheppard. :D

I am surprised that has not happened as well.. BUT i would like to see it happen.

Klenotka
January 8th, 2008, 02:51 AM
I wonder that someone didn´t knock Ronon out yet. He and his "kill first, ask questions later" strategy can get them into trouble. McKay thinks too much sometimes but Ronon usually looks like he even doesn´t think at all.

Avenger
January 8th, 2008, 10:13 AM
well i hope in the next episode he is a little more supportive

That would be completely reasonable and realistic. Give Sheppard a little time to cool off.

jenks
January 8th, 2008, 02:40 PM
I wonder that someone didn´t knock Ronon out yet. He and his "kill first, ask questions later" strategy can get them into trouble. McKay thinks too much sometimes but Ronon usually looks like he even doesn´t think at all.

What's this got to do with anything?

Klenotka
January 8th, 2008, 02:57 PM
What's this got to do with anything?

It was an answer to:


I'm just suprized that noone (Ronon, Sheppard, or a whole host of other people) has knocked Rodney out yet. It's coming though. And I'll bet you it will be Carter that does it too, infront of a very shocked Ronon and Sheppard

I forgot to use a quotation.

jdog
January 8th, 2008, 08:24 PM
Sheps reaction to teyla was correct from a military. subordinate stand point.

but they arent just coworkers they are friends.

I think he just was hurt so he went into military mode.
0

from_orion
January 9th, 2008, 12:31 AM
no, he was just all around mad at her, didn't even congrajulate her and he just walked away , he needed to be supportive, he didn't even apologize!
He didn't need to be supportive!! She made a bad decision and deserves to get the cold shoulder for it. I'm sure it won't last too long though...

from_orion
January 9th, 2008, 12:35 AM
well i hope in the next episode he is a little more supportive, it looks like she is still contributing though, so i guess after he cooled off he apologized for blowing up like that
She better be the one to apologize, then they will be able to get along.

from_orion
January 9th, 2008, 12:44 AM
I'm just suprized that noone (Ronon, Sheppard, or a whole host of other people) has knocked Rodney out yet. It's coming though. And I'll bet you it will be Carter that does it too, infront of a very shocked Ronon and Sheppard. :D

From Rodney's first appearances in SG-1, Carter has the right and desire to punch him. But Rodney has saved Ronon and Sheppard's lives enough times he has earned the right to be an ass. :)

MIZA
January 9th, 2008, 12:05 PM
From Rodney's first appearances in SG-1, Carter has the right and desire to punch him. But Rodney has saved Ronon and Sheppard's lives enough times he has earned the right to be an ass. :)

if you see the episode McKay and Mrs. Miller, you see how Rod is and the fact that he admires Rodney for saying what is on his mind and i do to , it is hard thing to be yourself and Rodney does that,

it is also a lot of pressure on him , they always looked to him for the solution, my favorite quote is " i should just go on these missions by myself" it is nice that some people are there to stand up for him

IlluZen
January 9th, 2008, 05:57 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe someone's said this already about McKay and Ellis. I really don't think Ellis has much respect for civilian personnel. He's personable to Sheppard, Carter, and Caldwell because they're military, but he was quick to dismiss McKay's and Weir's concerns for a preemptive strike in First Strike. And Dr. Lee in Lifeline (even if Lee was being a little spastic).

As for McKay, we all know how he feels about the rigid military thinking (which Ellis is the embodiment of). He went into that meeting to buy himself and the wraith more time. Rather than go with the plan that left frozen replicator people all over the galaxy, he wanted a plan that would take them out once and for all, even if it took a little more time for him to come up with.

And, in the end, (as he said in one of the Seige eps--forget which one :P) they turned to the scientists to deliver the final solution. I'm waiting for them to make an episode where a few of these 'virtually neutralized' replicators to come back and bite them in the @$$. Or, maybe this'll fit into Repli!Weir's plans?

MIZA
January 9th, 2008, 06:19 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe someone's said this already about McKay and Ellis. I really don't think Ellis has much respect for civilian personnel. He's personable to Sheppard, Carter, and Caldwell because they're military, but he was quick to dismiss McKay's and Weir's concerns for a preemptive strike in First Strike. And Dr. Lee in Lifeline (even if Lee was being a little spastic).

As for McKay, we all know how he feels about the rigid military thinking (which Ellis is the embodiment of). He went into that meeting to buy himself and the wraith more time. Rather than go with the plan that left frozen replicator people all over the galaxy, he wanted a plan that would take them out once and for all, even if it took a little more time for him to come up with.

And, in the end, (as he said in one of the Seige eps--forget which one :P) they turned to the scientists to deliver the final solution. I'm waiting for them to make an episode where a few of these 'virtually neutralized' replicators to come back and bite them in the @$$. Or, maybe this'll fit into Repli!Weir's plans?

well the thread pretty much talks about how some of the characters said not very nice things to each other, but your thoughts are right on the money !

i just like Rodney and think that he works very hard and to be yourself to people is hard thing to do

Teslan
January 9th, 2008, 09:08 PM
I thought all the things pointed out by the OP were some of the better moments in the show and added to ‘the characters’ greatness’ because both sides had their reasons for doing what they did.
Sheppard's reaction to Teyla's revelation should have been expected. It came as a complete surprise to him and as her CO he should have been told. As stated by many previous posters she put everyone at risk.
But Teyla has her own problems to deal with. She was the leader of her people and quite likely feels responsible for their disappearance. She wanted to continue to be involved with the search for as long as possible, but probably suspected that she might be forced to take a smaller role on the team because she had a ready answer for Sheppard.
The Rodney-Ellis confrontation also rang true. I get annoyed at Rodney's shameless, self-important babbling too sometimes. Yes, he was stalling in order to come up with a better plan, but he did not have the nerve to come out and say it. Rodney deserved to be taken down a few notches. Just not by Ellis (since Carter was right there) and not in such a surly manner. Carter rightly had it in for Ellis partly because she can sympathize with Rodney (can you imagine if he had had to work with O’Neill on a regular basis?:jack::mckay:), and partly because he was undermining her authority.
Agree with an earlier poster that Wraith humor was unnecessary for this episode, although I thought the scenes where they shot them for privacy, and where he talked about how they had to shoot Ronan multiple times were pretty darn funny.

garhkal
January 9th, 2008, 11:47 PM
And, in the end, (as he said in one of the Seige eps--forget which one :P) they turned to the scientists to deliver the final solution. I'm waiting for them to make an episode where a few of these 'virtually neutralized' replicators to come back and bite them in the @$$. Or, maybe this'll fit into Repli!Weir's plans?

Siege 2. It was just after the reinforcements came through the gate from earth and were having their meeting...

IlluZen
January 10th, 2008, 06:59 AM
I thought all the things pointed out by the OP were some of the better moments in the show and added to ‘the characters’ greatness’ because both sides had their reasons for doing what they did.
Sheppard's reaction to Teyla's revelation should have been expected. It came as a complete surprise to him and as her CO he should have been told. As stated by many previous posters she put everyone at risk.
But Teyla has her own problems to deal with. She was the leader of her people and quite likely feels responsible for their disappearance. She wanted to continue to be involved with the search for as long as possible, but probably suspected that she might be forced to take a smaller role on the team because she had a ready answer for Sheppard.
The Rodney-Ellis confrontation also rang true. I get annoyed at Rodney's shameless, self-important babbling too sometimes. Yes, he was stalling in order to come up with a better plan, but he did not have the nerve to come out and say it. Rodney deserved to be taken down a few notches. Just not by Ellis (since Carter was right there) and not in such a surly manner. Carter rightly had it in for Ellis partly because she can sympathize with Rodney (can you imagine if he had had to work with O’Neill on a regular basis?:jack::mckay:), and partly because he was undermining her authority.
Agree with an earlier poster that Wraith humor was unnecessary for this episode, although I thought the scenes where they shot them for privacy, and where he talked about how they had to shoot Ronan multiple times were pretty darn funny.

Rodney just does things the way he always does. He is who he is, he doesn't know how to be anything else. That's why fans either love him or hate him. :mckay: And I don't think Carter or Sheppard or Ronon will really bring him to task for this because they understand that. And what bothered me about Ellis is that he was verbally attacking Rodney himself, not the plan (or lack thereof). When Rodney insults someone, it usually follows one of two molds:

Are you insane?!? Because only an insane person would think that's a good plan.
You and your ideas are wrong and too stupid for words.

He doesn't malign a person's sexual prowess or 'manhood', not like Ellis did. That was below the belt. When Sheppard or Carter or whoever insult and 'banter' with him, it's more to encourage him to do better, or veiled compliments (watch Pegasus Project: the compli!insults really fly there).

Teslan
January 10th, 2008, 10:06 AM
Rodney just does things the way he always does. He is who he is, he doesn't know how to be anything else. That's why fans either love him or hate him. :mckay: And I don't think Carter or Sheppard or Ronon will really bring him to task for this because they understand that. And what bothered me about Ellis is that he was verbally attacking Rodney himself, not the plan (or lack thereof). When Rodney insults someone, it usually follows one of two molds:

Are you insane?!? Because only an insane person would think that's a good plan.
You and your ideas are wrong and too stupid for words.

He doesn't malign a person's sexual prowess or 'manhood', not like Ellis did. That was below the belt. When Sheppard or Carter or whoever insult and 'banter' with him, it's more to encourage him to do better, or veiled compliments (watch Pegasus Project: the compli!insults really fly there).

Yeah, Ellis was too harsh, and he really should have just allowed Carter to handle the situation in the first place. However, the two points you made about Rodney only insulting anothers' intelligence is not flattering. Rodney often judges a person's worth based on their intelligence, Ellis on their courage. In both cases they are trying to be as hurtful as possible by their remarks. Rodney justs picks on the people he views as weaker than him. He does not really treat Zelenka much better than most of the military treats him. And the reason why no one on the team has said anything to him is because they are his friends. Sheppard tried to warn him in this episode, but he kept talking.

That said I don't hate (although he is grating sometimes) the Rodney character, because he is funny and realistic (they are a lot of smart people who are like that). Ellis is okay, but he is a little similar to Caldwell and I would not mind if he were sent back to Earth.

solarscreen
January 10th, 2008, 01:26 PM
I really like how SGA portrays people with personality defects and skewed life scripting very much like real life. All too often in a tv series the characters have personality or preferences but they don't show an accurate human personality. Sitcoms are the worst about showing perfect kids, perfect parents, silly but redeemable characters that have a stable base.

Sheppard is a single miltary officer with striking features but a reactive nature. We have seen that he has had friends but two of them at least were killed some time in the past. John seems to not want to develop an intimate relationship because of this kind of past trauma and it can cause behavioral and interaction problems, especially when put on the spot. He seems to care very much for Teyla, even feel some kind of love for her, so when she drops the bomb on him, he goes immediately into a protective over-reaction from disbelief and hurt. He is more than willing to ignore rigid military protocol but his training nonetheless will still show itself when he finds himself in stressful, dangerous, and hurtful situations. I fully understand his reaction. It was very human and filled with nuggets of who he is and how it has affected him. I don't necessarily see him getting past being hurt and angry over her keeping this from him for so long and then endangering her child by putting herself in harm's way and getting stunned any time soon.

Rodney is a genius and geniuses typically have deficiencies in their social interactive skills and many times are very immature in dealing with adult concepts and relationships. He is very much emotionally like a 12 year old boy and behaves that way. Geniuses are typically more alone than not because of their accelerated skills and don't get the kind of life lessons most people get as children. They are treated differently by those around them because they are special so they don't learn hard lessons early, if at all. They can be very hurtful like a child can be without recognizing how they sound when they blurt out in anger, pain, or humiliation. Call it "lacking in social graces". Rodney has greatly benefited from the patience shown him by his teammates and he has learned a lot of things that he is way behind in learning still. He has a ways to go and it will be interesting to see how he learns these lessons.

Ronon has been traumatized and trained to behave the way he behaves. He lost his love in a wraith attack that destroyed his planet and was captured and turned into a runner, living on immediate and lethal instinct to survive. Every thought, reaction, and plan is based on kill or be killed. It takes at least as many years to learn to control the impulses of survival and ignore the blaring alarm in the back of your head when you return to more civil and safe environment. Trust, hope, and joy are luxuries very rare and dangerous in that previous life. Like Rodney, Ronon has greatly benefited from being on the team and living in Atlantis. He is recovering but will never be free from the truest example of post traumatic stress disorder. I have been retired from the military for 9 years now but I have not completely cleaned out all the mannerisms and reactions trained into me from that life. Almost, though!

All these characters react very much like people really do. We can be hurtful and we can say things that seem ok to us and no big deal that can affect others deeply. It happens every day. Carter, Ellis, and all the other primary characters seem pretty realistic to me and I really enjoy seeing those moments and scenes where their actions and words sound like real life.

Kudos to the writers and all the production people involved in this show. I am only less than a year watching SGA but the dvds and Universal HD/SciFi channels have got me caught up in a world I very much enjoy.

EarthandBeyond
January 10th, 2008, 02:07 PM
- John shouldn't reacted that way to Teyla finally telling him about her pregnancy, he should have been happy and congragulated her and helped her figure out away to still contribute. She is not from Earth and he is not her father, he suppose to be her friend.


That whole pregnacy thing, is the main reson why women shouldnt be in teams going off-world.
Abit of flowers, champagne, a few words and boom! A Soldier is out of service for a good year. All the training is dawn the drain.

solarscreen
January 10th, 2008, 02:25 PM
That whole pregnacy thing, is the main reson why women shouldnt be in teams going off-world.
Abit of flowers, champagne, a few words and boom! A Soldier is out of service for a good year. All the training is dawn the drain. That's why is the US military women are offered the 90 day shot or the 5 year implant to help prevent that problem.

Statistically, since women are an distinct minority in the military, if you add up all the hours lost to men fighting, drunk, or injured due to sports and misconduct and compare that to lost hours of women due to pregnancy, the ladies have a long way to go before they become a problem.

Not that I condone putting our women in harm's way but I thought you might like to know. :)

Jeffala
January 10th, 2008, 02:46 PM
Yeah, Ellis was too harsh, and he really should have just allowed Carter to handle the situation in the first place.

But she wasn't handling the situation, was she?

EarthandBeyond
January 10th, 2008, 03:32 PM
That's why is the US military women are offered the 90 day shot or the 5 year implant to help prevent that problem.



If its true, why didnt they add this to the show?

Damn the more this shows go's on, the more it turns in to a Team of Supermens vs advanced dumb bad guys.

jenks
January 10th, 2008, 03:59 PM
If its true, why didnt they add this to the show?

Damn the more this shows go's on, the more it turns in to a Team of Supermens vs advanced dumb bad guys.

What do you mean? Stop the actors getting pregnant?

Teslan
January 10th, 2008, 07:25 PM
But she wasn't handling the situation, was she?

He should have allowed her to handle it in whatever way she wanted to handle it. If he had complaints with her staff or how she handled them he should have addressed her and told her that. He should not belittle her staff right there in front of her. That undermines her authority. I said it before, I don't dislike Ellis, just thought he stepped over the line.

Lord batchi ball
January 10th, 2008, 07:43 PM
I have been reading this thread from time to time and have come up with my own opinion.

Teyla is not a member of the US military, therefore she is not bound by military code to report her pregency.

She is not from Earth or more specificly America.

She is a member of a tribe in a way and in that tribe she would be an active member in that society.

In some tribes in Africa, Southeast Asia and South America the women are very active during their pregency.

All that said Teyla was not aware of how in our culture pregnant women are treated. So she probably thought that her carrying child would not be all that signifant.

But Johns reaction was right. He was not only a close friend but responsible for her life in combat, but then he realizes that he is responsible for two. That would be (for him) a huge bombshell.

What the main thing that happened was a clash of cultures.

Jeffala
January 10th, 2008, 07:49 PM
He should have allowed her to handle it in whatever way she wanted to handle it. If he had complaints with her staff or how she handled them he should have addressed her and told her that. He should not belittle her staff right there in front of her. That undermines her authority. I said it before, I don't dislike Ellis, just thought he stepped over the line.



In this instance, if Atlantis was a corporation, Rodney'd be the one in the boardroom spouting nothing but managerial buzzwords. He was high on word-count but low on substance.

Sheppard tried to at least get him on a track that would lead to useful information and Rodney dismissed him.

Ellis tried to gently let Rodney know that no one in the room believed he had a workable plan and that he was wasting their time ("I think I got the gist of it." and Rodney got defensive and insinuated that since Ellis was just a colonel in the Air Force that he was, I don't know, stupid, like he always does. ("I'm just wondering when the Colonel here became a math and physics expert.")

You don't have to be a math and physics expert to be a Colonel, but you do have to be smart enough to know when someone's BS'ing you and Ellis figured it out pretty quickly.

starfox
January 10th, 2008, 09:55 PM
If its true, why didnt they add this to the show?

Damn the more this shows go's on, the more it turns in to a Team of Supermens vs advanced dumb bad guys.

Because Rachel got pregnant and, given the nature of her costuming, it's kind of a hard thing to hide.

And by the by? There are plenty of women out there who have no intention of getting pregnant or giving birth, ever. I'd be pleased if you could refrain from judging the rest of us just because some women make a different decision.

MIZA
January 11th, 2008, 12:42 AM
Because Rachel got pregnant and, given the nature of her costuming, it's kind of a hard thing to hide.

And by the by? There are plenty of women out there who have no intention of getting pregnant or giving birth, ever. I'd be pleased if you could refrain from judging the rest of us just because some women make a different decision.



I agree getting pregnant is not all womens goal in life, and if it happens whether you wanted it or not can be good or a bad thing, i for am glad that they put her pregnancy in the show , i don't like when they tried to hide it , but i understand. SGA is a great show i am glad that Rachel Luttrell can still be there

Myles
January 11th, 2008, 04:12 AM
I have been reading this thread from time to time and have come up with my own opinion.

Teyla is not a member of the US military, therefore she is not bound by military code to report her pregency.

She is not from Earth or more specificly America.

She is a member of a tribe in a way and in that tribe she would be an active member in that society.

In some tribes in Africa, Southeast Asia and South America the women are very active during their pregency.

All that said Teyla was not aware of how in our culture pregnant women are treated. So she probably thought that her carrying child would not be all that signifant.

But Johns reaction was right. He was not only a close friend but responsible for her life in combat, but then he realizes that he is responsible for two. That would be (for him) a huge bombshell.

What the main thing that happened was a clash of cultures.

Everything you wrote is true except that Teyla was ignorant to knowing the difference in her and our culture. The simple fact is she did not WANT to tell Shepperd by her hesitation and obvious concern in her voice. She knew it would be a problem, and no matter what excuse about active women in her tribe, she knew it was wrong to not tell him. Now, I understand why she didn't tell him. She knew that she would be given restricted duty and that the search for her people would have been slowed or stopped, but she still knew she was acting irresponsibly.

IlluZen
January 11th, 2008, 07:03 AM
Yeah, Ellis was too harsh, and he really should have just allowed Carter to handle the situation in the first place. However, the two points you made about Rodney only insulting anothers' intelligence is not flattering. Rodney often judges a person's worth based on their intelligence, Ellis on their courage. In both cases they are trying to be as hurtful as possible by their remarks. Rodney justs picks on the people he views as weaker than him. He does not really treat Zelenka much better than most of the military treats him. And the reason why no one on the team has said anything to him is because they are his friends. Sheppard tried to warn him in this episode, but he kept talking.

That said I don't hate (although he is grating sometimes) the Rodney character, because he is funny and realistic (they are a lot of smart people who are like that). Ellis is okay, but he is a little similar to Caldwell and I would not mind if he were sent back to Earth.

McKay's insults are in line with the conversation. Ideas and intelligence are linked in Rodney's mind and he was feeling threatened by Ellis. He uses these insults because for him its like a saftey buffer, something he falls back on when dealing wih people (not healthy, I know, but just how Rodney is). Ellis's were not. "Manhood" doesn't refer to courage in this context, but sexual prowess, as I said earlier, which made his comments inflammatory rather than constructive crit. He said it like McKay doesn't have the balls (*g*) to tell the truth. And even if he was referring to courage as you said, Rodney had the courage to beam onto the planet personally to fulfill his plan.

And since Tao of Rodney, McKay's been more trusting of people, Zelenka in particular. I don't see any examples of Rodney really insulting Zelenka after that (feel free to correct me on this point if you find any evidence), and he even trusts him to do very important repairs in Adrift. In fact, he's pretty mellow with Radek in TMC (which I know is just a copy of the real Atlantis, but still, it has to be a reflection of something that exists in the real Atlantis).

Even Rodney's interactions with Lorne are better, especially as seen in Travelers. And, did you notice that everyone in the control room looked to Rodney during the asteroid crsis in Adrift for the final go-ahead, not Sheppard? There's respect there.


That whole pregnacy thing, is the main reson why women shouldnt be in teams going off-world.
Abit of flowers, champagne, a few words and boom! A Soldier is out of service for a good year. All the training is dawn the drain.

You make all women sound stupid and easy. That's very insulting. No more generalized sexist remarks, please.


In this instance, if Atlantis was a corporation, Rodney'd be the one in the boardroom spouting nothing but managerial buzzwords. He was high on word-count but low on substance.

Sheppard tried to at least get him on a track that would lead to useful information and Rodney dismissed him.

Ellis tried to gently let Rodney know that no one in the room believed he had a workable plan and that he was wasting their time ("I think I got the gist of it." and Rodney got defensive and insinuated that since Ellis was just a colonel in the Air Force that he was, I don't know, stupid, like he always does. ("I'm just wondering when the Colonel here became a math and physics expert.")

You don't have to be a math and physics expert to be a Colonel, but you do have to be smart enough to know when someone's BS'ing you and Ellis figured it out pretty quickly.

If this were a corporation, Ellis would be the guy you hired last Thursday with the impressive resume and the big mouth who thinks he knows best and doesn't listen to anyone else. Ellis's comments were from the beginning sarcastic and designed to ignite McKay's temper. His tone of voice was patronizing at best. Rodney's the one with a good track record on Atlantis, not Ellis, and in the end, his plan worked. He went into that meeting to buy himself more time to come up with it, rather than going with Ellis's plan which left frozen replicators spread out all over the galaxy.

Avenger
January 11th, 2008, 10:48 AM
But she wasn't handling the situation, was she?

Handling in privately was the right thing to do, plus, Ellis went off on McKay at the very end of the briefing.

EarthandBeyond
January 11th, 2008, 11:10 AM
Because Rachel got pregnant and, given the nature of her costuming, it's kind of a hard thing to hide.

And by the by? There are plenty of women out there who have no intention of getting pregnant or giving birth, ever. I'd be pleased if you could refrain from judging the rest of us just because some women make a different decision.

Humans are not machines they cant be in control of there mental state 100% of time. When human( men or women ) come closer with facing there death, the natural insticts of reproductions kicks in, where you want it or not. Thats how we were build to preserve our species. Sort of a fail-safe mechanizm.

starfox
January 11th, 2008, 12:02 PM
Humans are not machines they cant be in control of there mental state 100% of time. When human( men or women ) come closer with facing there death, the natural insticts of reproductions kicks in, where you want it or not. Thats how we were build to preserve our species. Sort of a fail-safe mechanizm.

That is incredibly degrading. Some people are able to get past simple desire to reproduce. I'm not talking about desire for sex, I'm talking about the desire to have kids. If you're one of the people who truly doesn't want kids because you don't want to be saddled with a human being for the next 18 years/you find babies icky/you're too busy to water the plant, let alone a kid, as opposed to someone who doesn't want kids because "it's just the right time", that decision isn't likely to be overridden by circumstances. You may be more likely to jump the hot neighbor, but you're not more likely to skip your pill or forget the condom.

To put it in the context of the show, judging my Teyla's reaction, this baby was probably unintended. Maybe she was briefly on medication that interfered with her birth control, maybe she's just ridiculously fertile, I don't know. But let's say one of the marines on Atlantis got pregnant. Why not take leave, having the baby, then sending it back to Earth for adoption? And while we'll never see this on the show because it's too controversial & personal for many people, abortion is probably an option. Choosing to stop fighting to be a parent will end your effectiveness as a solider, but the actual act of being pregnant and giving birth doesn't necesarily do more than put you on a temporary hiatus.

EarthandBeyond
January 11th, 2008, 12:40 PM
That is incredibly degrading. Some people are able to get past simple desire to reproduce. I'm not talking about desire for sex, I'm talking about the desire to have kids.

Its the same thing.
If people really were after "pleasure". Women dont need men, and men dont need women for that. As long as there is men and women involved it will always be an instinct for reproduction. I think, its just how we were made.

starfox
January 11th, 2008, 01:28 PM
Its the same thing.
If people really were after "pleasure". Women dont need men, and men dont need women for that. As long as there is men and women involved it will always be an instinct for reproduction. I think, its just how we were made.

Eh, straight people may not need a partner, but it's more fun than going it alone. Also, tying the desire to reproduce completely to the desire for sex implies that homosexuals desire children less/have less reproductive instinct. Which, judging from the number of IVFs, surrogate mothers, and adoptions within the LGBT community, would seem to be untrue.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the sex = reproduction. While it may be instinctual, I just feel like the fact that so many people go to great lengths to avoid reproducing when having sex counters the instinct.

MIZA
January 11th, 2008, 06:02 PM
well i hope it is better tonights we shall have to see

MIZA
January 11th, 2008, 06:03 PM
Its the same thing.
If people really were after "pleasure". Women dont need men, and men dont need women for that. As long as there is men and women involved it will always be an instinct for reproduction. I think, its just how we were made.

hey who signature is that at the bottom of your sig

Teslan
January 11th, 2008, 06:27 PM
In this instance, if Atlantis was a corporation, Rodney'd be the one in the boardroom spouting nothing but managerial buzzwords. He was high on word-count but low on substance.

Sheppard tried to at least get him on a track that would lead to useful information and Rodney dismissed him.

Ellis tried to gently let Rodney know that no one in the room believed he had a workable plan and that he was wasting their time ("I think I got the gist of it." and Rodney got defensive and insinuated that since Ellis was just a colonel in the Air Force that he was, I don't know, stupid, like he always does. ("I'm just wondering when the Colonel here became a math and physics expert.")

You don't have to be a math and physics expert to be a Colonel, but you do have to be smart enough to know when someone's BS'ing you and Ellis figured it out pretty quickly.

I agree that Ellis had a point, but he went too far, and the military is not the same as a corporation. While Rodney is not technically a part of the military, he is still a civilian working under Sam's command. Therefore, Ellis should be careful what he says to her people. When Rodney starting becoming childish and insulting, Sam should have added something a little more forceful to John's careful chiding. When she did not do that, Ellis should have either a) asked Sam what the point of bringing them there, or b) waited until after Rodney's pointless presentation to discuss her handling of her people. He should NOT have taken discipline into his own hands. And he should NOT have stooped to Rodney's level.

Teslan
January 11th, 2008, 06:39 PM
McKay's insults are in line with the conversation. Ideas and intelligence are linked in Rodney's mind and he was feeling threatened by Ellis. He uses these insults because for him its like a saftey buffer, something he falls back on when dealing wih people (not healthy, I know, but just how Rodney is). Ellis's were not. "Manhood" doesn't refer to courage in this context, but sexual prowess, as I said earlier, which made his comments inflammatory rather than constructive crit. He said it like McKay doesn't have the balls (*g*) to tell the truth. And even if he was referring to courage as you said, Rodney had the courage to beam onto the planet personally to fulfill his plan.

And since Tao of Rodney, McKay's been more trusting of people, Zelenka in particular. I don't see any examples of Rodney really insulting Zelenka after that (feel free to correct me on this point if you find any evidence), and he even trusts him to do very important repairs in Adrift. In fact, he's pretty mellow with Radek in TMC (which I know is just a copy of the real Atlantis, but still, it has to be a reflection of something that exists in the real Atlantis).

Even Rodney's interactions with Lorne are better, especially as seen in Travelers. And, did you notice that everyone in the control room looked to Rodney during the asteroid crsis in Adrift for the final go-ahead, not Sheppard? There's respect there.

I don't care if it is Rodney's way. When he is speaking to people who don't know his way he had better be careful, or he is asking for trouble. He was being a jerk when he made the comment about Ellis' intelligence, true or not. He crossed a line, and Ellis merely followed him. Should Ellis have been the adult in the situation? Yes, especially being military and understanding what was at stake. But that does not mean he should not have taken issue with Rodney's possibly costly stalling and his lack of tact (to say the least). He should have just done it in a less insulting fashion. Because the way he went about it was insulting to both Rodney (who I blame for starting the mess, but also pity because Ellis' put-down was cruel and unnecessary) and Sam, who is his equal in rank and standing right there.

starfox
January 11th, 2008, 07:51 PM
. He was being a jerk when he made the comment about Ellis' intelligence, true or not. He crossed a line, and Ellis merely followed him.

When did Rodney make a remark about Ellis' intelligence? Unless I'm rembering the scene wrong, he stated that Ellis wasn't a "math and physics expert", and he did this after Ellis basically called Rodney's presentation bull****. Saying that someone isn't an expert isn't maligning his intelligence. Ellis was the one who said Rodney thought he was dumb, and then followed this by maligning McKay's manhood. The long-windedness of Rodney's presentation was inapproprate for the setting, but things didn't begin to get rude and petty until Ellis opened his mouth.

Yay4CarsonBeckett
January 11th, 2008, 08:59 PM
Totally disagree that John "shouldn't have said that"

Concealing a pregnancy is one thing from your commanding officer (let alone Colonel Carter, who is responsible for everyone's wellbeing), but to go into battle with a child is definitely irresponsible.

John was correct in the way he reacted, Teyla had no excuse to go out into dangerous situations and risk being beaten up, stunned etc...

I applaude the writers for making John's reaction very realistic.

Avenger
January 12th, 2008, 12:10 AM
The entire thing with John and Teyla was handed quite well in Spoils of War

IlluZen
January 12th, 2008, 12:12 PM
The entire thing with John and Teyla was handed quite well in Spoils of War

Totally Agree. :sheppard: :teyla:


I don't care if it is Rodney's way. When he is speaking to people who don't know his way he had better be careful, or he is asking for trouble. He was being a jerk when he made the comment about Ellis' intelligence, true or not.

I can't ask you all to suddenly switch and become a McKay fan, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I look at this as McKay being the known element: the person whose been on Atlantis since the beginning and has solved numerous problems. He's already proven himself. Ellis is just the new ship's captain, the unknown upstart.

And who insults someone's "manhood" in a serious discussion, anyways? Not professional.

Even if we remove the McKay element, from a practical view what Ellis did was wrong. He has caused undue tension between the Atlantis and Apollo commands; and between the military and civilian personnel. I think that Ellis has little regard for nonmilitary personnel, and his argument with McKay was a symptom of this.

This isn't the first time he's done something like this. I mean, look how much tension he created with Weir, McKay, and Zelenka in First Strike. He undermined Weir's command and alienated Zelenka and McKay, who briefly considered sabotaging the Horizon nuke platform, which they--and other Atlanteans--considered part of a rash and stupid plan. He only spoke respectfully to Sheppard in that episode. And he was rude to Dr. Lee in Adrift, another civilian veteran of the SGC (even if he was a little spastic).

Jeffala
January 12th, 2008, 12:34 PM
Ellis is just the new ship's captain, the unknown upstart.

How is Ellis an upstart? First he made it to the rank of Colonel in the US Air Force and then, of all of the members of the Air Force, he joined the, what, 5 or 6 people who've been chosen to command an inter-galactic space ship in a mission of defense of Earth.

I don't really like or dislike Ellis and I hate Michael Beach's voice, but I do like that he stood up and said something when no one else was going to. Did he go about it the wrong way, yeah, probably, but someone had to call Rodney on it.

Maybe I'm being *****y, but I dislike how Rodney has to constantly mention how dire the situation is. Take "Lifeline" for instance:


This is not simple, you know! If I don’t properly calibrate the power output, we could incinerate the moment the hyperspace window opens.

Does he think that Sheppard thinks it's as easy as snapping your fingers? Sure, the writers probably threw that in for the viewer's benefit but it was just annoying. Every time I see it all I'm thinking is, "Just shut up and do it. You're wasting time by being annoying."


And he was rude to Dr. Lee in Adrift, another civilian veteran of the SGC (even if he was a little spastic).

Just a little? :P

"Space is quite vast."

Teslan
January 12th, 2008, 03:33 PM
I can't ask you all to suddenly switch and become a McKay fan, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I look at this as McKay being the known element: the person whose been on Atlantis since the beginning and has solved numerous problems. He's already proven himself. Ellis is just the new ship's captain, the unknown upstart.

And who insults someone's "manhood" in a serious discussion, anyways? Not professional.

Even if we remove the McKay element, from a practical view what Ellis did was wrong. He has caused undue tension between the Atlantis and Apollo commands; and between the military and civilian personnel. I think that Ellis has little regard for nonmilitary personnel, and his argument with McKay was a symptom of this.

This isn't the first time he's done something like this. I mean, look how much tension he created with Weir, McKay, and Zelenka in First Strike. He undermined Weir's command and alienated Zelenka and McKay, who briefly considered sabotaging the Horizon nuke platform, which they--and other Atlanteans--considered part of a rash and stupid plan. He only spoke respectfully to Sheppard in that episode. And he was rude to Dr. Lee in Adrift, another civilian veteran of the SGC (even if he was a little spastic).

I agree to disagree on this issue. But don't get wrong, I like the McKay character and find the Ellis character a pain quite often. The point that we do know Rodney so well, and how his personality can be a little galling to some people is what made me post in this thread in the first place. I thought that scene was realistic, because it was mixing two people with somewhat abrasive dispositions and it allowed harsh words to fly.

IlluZen
January 13th, 2008, 06:29 AM
How is Ellis an upstart? First he made it to the rank of Colonel in the US Air Force and then, of all of the members of the Air Force, he joined the, what, 5 or 6 people who've been chosen to command an inter-galactic space ship in a mission of defense of Earth.

Ellis is new to Atlantis, and to us as fans of the show. I for one haven't seen him before First Strike, have you? This is just his second time in Atlantis, and he's still new and untested at the time when he criticized Rodney. He had never been in a real down and dirty space battle with his ship (the satellite doesn't strike me as a space battle, and there was no opposition to dropping the nukes on the Replicator planet), and he was critiquing someone else's performance. And even though he was chosen, there are still plenty of other replacement colonels out there, with an equally impressive resume (as I would assume someone making it to a ship's captain would have), so the rank really doesn't mean much without practical Pegasus Galaxy experience.

If they could flipflop command of the SGC between Gen. Hammond :hammond: and Gen. Bauer in Chain Reaction, then they can remove Ellis with little fanfare. And remember when Rodney was just an upstart in 48 Hours? He had an impressive resume and Pentagon support, but he still got sent to Siberia for being mouthy to Carter.

While I don't want Ellis to fall off the face of Atlantis (he adds to the character drama), he's not indispensible. I'm also not saying that Ellis won't do good things in the future, only that he's the new guy coming in and treating people with a good track record like crap isn't a good idea.

Also, does no one have any opinion on Ellis's feelings of nonmilitary personnel? Maybe I should just post a new thread...*goes to do that* :)

Edit: New thread Does Col. Ellis have a thing against Civilian Personnel? (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=50354)

MIZA
January 13th, 2008, 02:55 PM
Ellis is new to Atlantis, and to us as fans of the show. I for one haven't seen him before First Strike, have you? This is just his second time in Atlantis, and he's still new and untested at the time when he criticized Rodney. He had never been in a real down and dirty space battle with his ship (the satellite doesn't strike me as a space battle, and there was no opposition to dropping the nukes on the Replicator planet), and he was critiquing someone else's performance. And even though he was chosen, there are still plenty of other replacement colonels out there, with an equally impressive resume (as I would assume someone making it to a ship's captain would have), so the rank really doesn't mean much without practical Pegasus Galaxy experience.

If they could flipflop command of the SGC between Gen. Hammond :hammond: and Gen. Bauer in Chain Reaction, then they can remove Ellis with little fanfare. And remember when Rodney was just an upstart in 48 Hours? He had an impressive resume and Pentagon support, but he still got sent to Siberia for being mouthy to Carter.

While I don't want Ellis to fall off the face of Atlantis (he adds to the character drama), he's not indispensible. I'm also not saying that Ellis won't do good things in the future, only that he's the new guy coming in and treating people with a good track record like crap isn't a good idea.

Also, does no one have any opinion on Ellis's feelings of nonmilitary personnel? Maybe I should just post a new thread...*goes to do that* :)

Edit: New thread Does Col. Ellis have a thing against Civilian Personnel? (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=50354)

i think alot of other characters do? like NID , and SGT Bates, that is just how they are , maybe these non military personnel need to take a page from the book of Daniel or Teal'c , it might help

Freekzilla
January 15th, 2008, 04:48 AM
Part of the problem I see in this issue is that, some seem all too ready to excuse Rodney's behavior with "it's just his way" opinion, but condem Ellis's behavior. Well, maybe that's just his way too. Both people displayed bad behavior. It's just that some are McKay fanboys and think it's ok, but god forbid if anyone else does it.

Do I think Ellis went a tad over the line? Yes I do. Do I think he was right? Yes, McKay was just trying to use big words to impress and confuse everyone and gloss over the fact that he didn't have anything worth listening to. Should Carter have, or Sheppard for that matter, impressed upon Rodney to keep to the point and not waste time with superfluous details. Absolutely. But neither of them stepped up to do so. And THAT is something I think Ellis may also have taken an issue with.

It's like being in the grocery store and some kids are running around screaming, throwing things etc, but the mother/father is ignoring it. Who are you disgusted with? The kids for doing it, or the parent for allowing it? Me, I would be disgusted for kids acting like that, but the parent more for being unable/unwilling to do their job and get their kids under control.

So, if you are gonna call Ellis to the carpet for what he did, you have to do the same to McKay. Where I do agree with Ellis for doing it is that, as a "leader" within the Atlantis Expedition, McKay has the burden of obligation to not let his own personnal shortcomings affect his job performance, but McKay does. That's why I think McKay should NOT be the head of the department. Let someone else who is better at conveying the information handle that task. That way he can stick to doing what he does best, the scientific work and problem solving. Ellis, for his part, should learn to be a bit more diplomatic in the wording when dealing with non military people. And both Carter and Sheppard need to learn when to step in and bring things back on track and when not to. Now, if I had been there, I would have told McKay to summarize and save the details for the report. Maybe. Then again, maybe not. I can't stand it when people try to pull things like that in real life, so I can certainly understand how peeved Ellis was. I like McKay and Ellis. Their interaction adds depth to the show, as in not everyone is all buddy-buddy and happy go lucky best buds and all. It's more realistic for personalities to clash like that. Only thing is, I wish someone or even McKay himself would reign him in more completely and more often. He really does get a bit annoying sometimes even from this side of the TV screen. It's ok sometimes, just not Maniac McKay 24/7. (Hmmm, McKayniac!)

MIZA
January 15th, 2008, 02:05 PM
i think John handled the whole thing now better, he was a lot nicer to her , and i thought that was cool how Major Lorne congrajulated her ( even though he is military personnel) . hey he even told her some tips and that and the is going to be a great mom, cause she is !

IlluZen
January 16th, 2008, 05:19 PM
Part of the problem I see in this issue is that, some seem all too ready to excuse Rodney's behavior with "it's just his way" opinion, but condem Ellis's behavior. Well, maybe that's just his way too. Both people displayed bad behavior. It's just that some are McKay fanboys and think it's ok, but god forbid if anyone else does it.

Do I think Ellis went a tad over the line? Yes I do. Do I think he was right? Yes, McKay was just trying to use big words to impress and confuse everyone and gloss over the fact that he didn't have anything worth listening to. Should Carter have, or Sheppard for that matter, impressed upon Rodney to keep to the point and not waste time with superfluous details. Absolutely. But neither of them stepped up to do so. And THAT is something I think Ellis may also have taken an issue with.

It's like being in the grocery store and some kids are running around screaming, throwing things etc, but the mother/father is ignoring it. Who are you disgusted with? The kids for doing it, or the parent for allowing it? Me, I would be disgusted for kids acting like that, but the parent more for being unable/unwilling to do their job and get their kids under control.

So, if you are gonna call Ellis to the carpet for what he did, you have to do the same to McKay. Where I do agree with Ellis for doing it is that, as a "leader" within the Atlantis Expedition, McKay has the burden of obligation to not let his own personnal shortcomings affect his job performance, but McKay does. That's why I think McKay should NOT be the head of the department. Let someone else who is better at conveying the information handle that task. That way he can stick to doing what he does best, the scientific work and problem solving. Ellis, for his part, should learn to be a bit more diplomatic in the wording when dealing with non military people. And both Carter and Sheppard need to learn when to step in and bring things back on track and when not to. Now, if I had been there, I would have told McKay to summarize and save the details for the report. Maybe. Then again, maybe not. I can't stand it when people try to pull things like that in real life, so I can certainly understand how peeved Ellis was. I like McKay and Ellis. Their interaction adds depth to the show, as in not everyone is all buddy-buddy and happy go lucky best buds and all. It's more realistic for personalities to clash like that. Only thing is, I wish someone or even McKay himself would reign him in more completely and more often. He really does get a bit annoying sometimes even from this side of the TV screen. It's ok sometimes, just not Maniac McKay 24/7. (Hmmm, McKayniac!)

I know where you're coming from. I'm a fan of McKay, and agree with some of your points. However, I don't think Ellis was appropriate in his comments, and I don't think Sheppard or Carter will call McKay to the carpet for that.

Carter I don't think will because she's been where McKay's been: the one everybody's looking at to pull a brilliant solution out of thin air (remember SG-1's 48 Hours, where she was worried about how everyone was waiting for her to come up with a solution?). And Sheppard won't bring McKay to task because he knows that sometimes McKay can 'talk' himself into a solution, which he's done in the Storm (lightning-powered shields), Inferno (using the Orion's hyperdrive and the eruption itself), First Strike (flying the city), and BAMSR (the Godzilla replicator). Notice Sheppard's much more indulgent than he was in the SGA premier, Rising, or in Hide and Seek? Character interaction evolution.

As for removing McKay as head scientist, I'd say that his record is pretty successful. Yeah, he has a piss poor attitude most of the time, but he does know how to lead, as we can see in Hot Zone, even when he was about to die. And he's willing to put himself in dangerous situations to save others, like in Defiant One (stepping up against the wraith with just a hand gun). And he's willing to help others even at great personal cost, like in Miller's Crossing......where he's willing to let a wraith feed on him to save his sister.

Lastly, though I know I said this earlier, I can't find my post and I don't want to troll through the whole thread so I'll quickly rehash it for you. :) The reason he was being verbose was because he didn't want them to go through with Ellis's plan of blowing up ships and leaving frozen replicators all over the galaxy. Yeah, McKay's plan wasn't ready, but he thought it would be better for them to wait a little while longer for the plan that would totally and forever neutralize them, rather than go for the stop gap measure that leaves dangerous frozen replicators all over the place for poor unsuspecting folks to stumble upon. And, in the end, it was McKay's plan that defeated the replicators.

Your other arguments (specifically about me being a McKay fangirl--which I'll admit, I am :P) I've tried to address in an earlier post, which I've quoted below.


I can't ask you all to suddenly switch and become a McKay fan, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I look at this as McKay being the known element: the person whose been on Atlantis since the beginning and has solved numerous problems. He's already proven himself. Ellis is just the new ship's captain, the unknown upstart.

And who insults someone's "manhood" in a serious discussion, anyways? Not professional.

Even if we remove the McKay element, from a practical view what Ellis did was wrong. He has caused undue tension between the Atlantis and Apollo commands; and between the military and civilian personnel. I think that Ellis has little regard for nonmilitary personnel, and his argument with McKay was a symptom of this.

This isn't the first time he's done something like this. I mean, look how much tension he created with Weir, McKay, and Zelenka in First Strike. He undermined Weir's command and alienated Zelenka and McKay, who briefly considered sabotaging the Horizon nuke platform, which they--and other Atlanteans--considered part of a rash and stupid plan. He only spoke respectfully to Sheppard in that episode. And he was rude to Dr. Lee in Adrift, another civilian veteran of the SGC (even if he was a little spastic).

If you want to discuss the last point with me, I started a new thread not to long ago, Does Col. Ellis have a thing against Civilian Personnel? (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=50354) ...which appears to have died. :S Hope that helps. :)

FallenAngelII
January 17th, 2008, 02:58 AM
We all know that Teyla could've handled it a bit better but knowing what we know about John, it's also sliiightly hypocritical.

Let's try to understand the convoluted reasoning behind why Teyla kept it a secret:
* It might be the last of her people
* Her people are gone, somewhere, possibly dead
* The father being one of them
* She might fear being taken off duty once she reveals it. She's not stupid, she's probably seen how women aren't always treated as equals in Earth society.
* If she's taken off the team, she won't be able to go off-world to try and locate her people anymore.

Now some of those reasons and reasonings are inane but this is a woman under duress here. As her friend, he should've reacted better. You know, talked to her. Tried to explain to her right away that he wanted to protect her baby because it might be the last of her people, that she could get into trouble because of her being pregnant (instead he opted for an angry "This is exactly what I was talking about!").

Let's look at the Colonel's record of lying:
Latest lie to his teammates was in "Travelers":
* Not so much a direct lie but possibly just a blatant omission of important facts (like with Teyla's pregnancy): He failed to even mention how Larrin ended up taking his gun, stunning him and stealing the Aurora class ship.

His reasoning? "It would be embarrassing if people knew", probably.

Let's see... lying because you're under duress, your people and the baby's father are gone or possibly dead vs. lying because "it would be embarassing". If I were John, I wouldn't be so high and mighty. You know, if he told his teammates about the "embarrassing incident", they'd know and maybe be able to steer him clear of doe-eyed female baddies in the future to prevent something similar from happening again.

Teyla's not saint. She's done wrong here. But at least she's not a hypocrite.

MIZA
January 17th, 2008, 01:39 PM
I know where you're coming from. I'm a fan of McKay, and agree with some of your points. However, I don't think Ellis was appropriate in his comments, and I don't think Sheppard or Carter will call McKay to the carpet for that.

Carter I don't think will because she's been where McKay's been: the one everybody's looking at to pull a brilliant solution out of thin air (remember SG-1's 48 Hours, where she was worried about how everyone was waiting for her to come up with a solution?). And Sheppard won't bring McKay to task because he knows that sometimes McKay can 'talk' himself into a solution, which he's done in the Storm (lightning-powered shields), Inferno (using the Orion's hyperdrive and the eruption itself), First Strike (flying the city), and BAMSR (the Godzilla replicator). Notice Sheppard's much more indulgent than he was in the SGA premier, Rising, or in Hide and Seek? Character interaction evolution.

As for removing McKay as head scientist, I'd say that his record is pretty successful. Yeah, he has a piss poor attitude most of the time, but he does know how to lead, as we can see in Hot Zone, even when he was about to die. And he's willing to put himself in dangerous situations to save others, like in Defiant One (stepping up against the wraith with just a hand gun). And he's willing to help others even at great personal cost, like in Miller's Crossing......where he's willing to let a wraith feed on him to save his sister.

Lastly, though I know I said this earlier, I can't find my post and I don't want to troll through the whole thread so I'll quickly rehash it for you. :) The reason he was being verbose was because he didn't want them to go through with Ellis's plan of blowing up ships and leaving frozen replicators all over the galaxy. Yeah, McKay's plan wasn't ready, but he thought it would be better for them to wait a little while longer for the plan that would totally and forever neutralize them, rather than go for the stop gap measure that leaves dangerous frozen replicators all over the place for poor unsuspecting folks to stumble upon. And, in the end, it was McKay's plan that defeated the replicators.

Your other arguments (specifically about me being a McKay fangirl--which I'll admit, I am :P) I've tried to address in an earlier post, which I've quoted below.



If you want to discuss the last point with me, I started a new thread not to long ago, Does Col. Ellis have a thing against Civilian Personnel? (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=50354) ...which appears to have died. :S Hope that helps. :)

you have some good points, but i also blame Ellis for the whole replicator thing , who knows what they were doing with those ships, he was the one who ignited the flames and got them angry so they would attack Atlantis. i am talking about the episode (first strike), so Ellis is know bright bulb, he shouldn't be sayin' stuff like that about Rodney or anyone else for that matter he made some stupid mistakes too

blue-skyz
January 17th, 2008, 01:55 PM
you have some good points, but i also blame Ellis for the whole replicator thing , who knows what they were doing with those ships, he was the one who ignited the flames and got them angry so they would attack Atlantis. i am talking about the episode (first strike), so Ellis is know bright bulb, he shouldn't be sayin' stuff like that about Rodney or anyone else for that matter he made some stupid mistakes too
Ellis wasn't responsible for what happened in FS. He was following orders.

Jeffala
January 17th, 2008, 02:05 PM
you have some good points, but i also blame Ellis for the whole replicator thing , who knows what they were doing with those ships, he was the one who ignited the flames and got them angry so they would attack Atlantis. i am talking about the episode (first strike), so Ellis is know bright bulb, he shouldn't be sayin' stuff like that about Rodney or anyone else for that matter he made some stupid mistakes too

On first meeting the Atlantis team, the Asurans dispatched an Atlantis-class city-ship to destroy them. Is there any other logical conclusion to draw from their buildup of warships than either 1) another strike at Atlantis or 2) a strike at Earth itself?

At that time, the Asurans had no other enemy that they were concerned with destroying.

MIZA
January 17th, 2008, 02:07 PM
Ellis wasn't responsible for what happened in FS. He was following orders.

well from who? , i got the impression that he thought it was the best course of action, either way it was a bad decision and he seemed pretty adamant that it would work

blue-skyz
January 17th, 2008, 02:31 PM
well from who? , i got the impression that he thought it was the best course of action, either way it was a bad decision and he seemed pretty adamant that it would work
He did agree with the decision, but the decision was made by O'Neill and the president and ? At least, they were the ones that Weir tried to get to recind the order.

Was it a bad order? Sheppard and McKay agreed that it was too little, but better than letting the replicators get to Earth. Better than nothing.

IlluZen
January 18th, 2008, 01:14 PM
He did agree with the decision, but the decision was made by O'Neill and the president and ? At least, they were the ones that Weir tried to get to recind the order.

Was it a bad order? Sheppard and McKay agreed that it was too little, but better than letting the replicators get to Earth. Better than nothing.

I think the order came from the IOA. Ellis implies this in FS. My beef with it is that they didn't give the Atlantis crew time to prepare or fully plan for this course of action. They were deliberately left in the dark until the last minute (because everybody knew they wouldn't agree with this plan). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the replicators would retaliate, and maybe with the combined thinking of the Atlantis crew they could've come up with a better plan.

Also, Ellis could've introduced the idea in a way that didn't incite mutiny from the Atlantis ranks. It's kinda like when Everett took over in Seige 2.

blue-skyz
January 18th, 2008, 04:57 PM
I think the order came from the IOA. Ellis implies this in FS.
Whoever. It was a military decision from highest level Earth decision makers. Ellis didn’t make it.

He had his orders. Time was considered critical. The replicator ships needed to be destroyed while they were in one place on the ground. They didn’t have the resources to destroy them once they were in space on their way to Earth.

Also, Ellis could've introduced the idea in a way that didn't incite mutiny from the Atlantis ranks.
It was not Ellis’ job to explain his orders. The only person in Atlantis that mutinied was Weir.

They were deliberately left in the dark until the last minute (because everybody knew they wouldn't agree with this plan).
That’s way too broad a statement.
The only person in Atlantis that we saw that did not come to agree with the plan was Weir.

My beef with it is that they didn't give the Atlantis crew time to prepare or fully plan for this course of action.
One explanation for why Weir was not made part of the decision process or informed of the plans to destroy the replicator fleet. is:
The military and the IOA in military matters did not trust Weir to make the hard choices or accept the use of military measures. (Mutual distrust.) Ellis says as much when he tells Sheppard that he should be in command of Atlantis and Weir proves it when she tries to get the strike called off.

There are also timing issues here:
This was a rush mission and there was no time to consult Atlantis. The SGC couldn’t dial Atlantis. After the Apollo was on its way, Atlantis had no immediate need to know. The pictures were taken 3 weeks ago. If transit time is 18 days, that leaves three days for the pictures to get to Earth and be interpreted and a very high level decision made.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the replicators would retaliate, and maybe with the combined thinking of the Atlantis crew they could've come up with a better plan.
Retaliation did not seem to be expected by Atlantis. There did not seem to be any preparation or extra vigilance. There wasn’t time to hold brain storming sessions. Time was critical and resources were limited; Ellis apparently had all the spare nukes and the PWARW ? was not ready.

IlluZen
January 19th, 2008, 02:18 AM
Whoever. It was a military decision from highest level Earth decision makers. Ellis didn’t make it.

He had his orders. Time was considered critical. The replicator ships needed to be destroyed while they were in one place on the ground. They didn’t have the resources to destroy them once they were in space on their way to Earth.

True, this wasn't Ellis's plan. My point was that Ellis pitched it stupidly. He paid the smallest lip service to courtesy for the Atlantis command staff (except Sheppard, whom he was conciliatory to afterwards--way afterwards--where he b****ed about Weir's command style), which caused grumblings, especially from Weir, McKay, and Zelenka.

I mean, he had McKay beamed out after the initial briefing in FS mid-sentence, when he was saying that he wasn't ready to go yet! McKay could have been saying that he needed to get some supplies from his lab, or to pick up Zelenka to help him or something, but Ellis didn't give him the chance to finish! Nothing says that they don't value your input quite like that.


It was not Ellis’ job to explain his orders. The only person in Atlantis that mutinied was Weir.

I guess 'mutiny' was a poor choice of words on my part. More like Ellis caused dissention among the ranks. Everybody went along with it in the end (including Weir--because she had to), but McKay and Zelenka were definitely considering sabotaging the nuke platform before the launch. :mckayanime07: And, McKay rebuked Ellis when he tried to command him to sink the city after the replicator satellite started attacking.

And it was Ellis's job to explain the orders. That's what he was doing (poorly) in the briefing at the beginning of FS.


That’s way too broad a statement.
The only person in Atlantis that we saw that did not come to agree with the plan was Weir.

Not true. Judging from McKay and Zelenka's reactions, they too did not agree with the plan. :zelenkaanime07: Zelenka was the one who suggested sabotaging the nukes, and McKay outright asked Ellis if he thought this was a good plan before the launch. (Admittedly bad timing on his part, but that's McKay for you :P). Sheppard I'm not too sure about because he was content to sit back, not really take sides, and let events play out.


One explanation for why Weir was not made part of the decision process or informed of the plans to destroy the replicator fleet. is:
The military and the IOA in military matters did not trust Weir to make the hard choices or accept the use of military measures. (Mutual distrust.) Ellis says as much when he tells Sheppard that he should be in command of Atlantis and Weir proves it when she tries to get the strike called off.

The entire Atlantis command staff wasn't made aware of the decision process. The news came as a surprise to everyone at the briefing, and their collective surprise was expressed by Weir. Also, think about it. If Sheppard or McKay (the two most likely candidates for the IOA to possibly consult with) had really been made aware of this plan before FS, do you think really think wouldn't tell Weir? They both respect Weir, and have pulled her into the loop on previous occasions (i.e. the Sieges).

About your reasons, Ellis was expressing his opinion of Weir, not the IOA's. Later in FS he expresses as much, and apologizes for stepping on her authority on Atlantis.

And nothing was 'proved' by Weir when she tried to get the decision called off except that she thought it was a bad decision. She's made tough military decisions before (i.e. Allies/No Man's Land--sending both the Orion and the Deadalus after the 2 hive ships). If I recall, it was the IOA that had a problem making the decisions then.

I dunno, there're lots of reasons why Atlantis wasn't made aware of this information. Maybe the IOA had it out for Elizabeth. Maybe they were afraid to consult with her because they didn't want her and the Atlantis command to get any more power in the Pegasus Galaxy than they already had. Maybe they were afraid the expedition would all go native if left to their own devices. Or, maybe this was just a case of military suspicion, where the people in offices decide that a tactical strike is the best option because it's the standard military response to this type of situation. At this point, it's a just speculation.


There are also timing issues here:
This was a rush mission and there was no time to consult Atlantis. The SGC couldn’t dial Atlantis. After the Apollo was on its way, Atlantis had no immediate need to know. The pictures were taken 3 weeks ago. If transit time is 18 days, that leaves three days for the pictures to get to Earth and be interpreted and a very high level decision made.

It was a rush mission because the IOA and Ellis made it into a rush mission. Both Atlantis and Earth have a ZPM, and I assume they do regular check-ins like they always have. It wouldn't have been too hard to appraise them of the situation then. Or the Daedalus could have stopped by and informed Atlantis before they left for Earth with the sensitive intell so that they could've sent the info along via databurst and given both groups more time to think of a plan. Instead, the data was hoarded by the military in a classic case of the right hand not talking to the left hand.

And to put things into perspective, 3 weeks (and some change) was about how long it took McKay and co. to come up with the plan in BAMSR to defeat the replicators once and for all. In the couple of hours that McKay was on the replicator home world, he came up with the plan to reactivate the Wraith attack command (taking the pressure off Earth and placing it onto the Wraith). Not to mention the replicators already had new ships to launch shortly after Atlantis had landed a couple of days after the initial first strike (*g*), which proved Weir's prediction that it was an ineffectual strike.


Retaliation did not seem to be expected by Atlantis. There did not seem to be any preparation or extra vigilance. There wasn’t time to hold brain storming sessions. Time was critical and resources were limited; Ellis apparently had all the spare nukes and the PWARW ? was not ready.

The retaliation wasn't expected or planned for because the Atlantis personnel didn't have time to prepare for it because they were cut out of the loop. And Ellis didn't just have 'spare nukes' lying around. They had a tactical launching platform (the Horizon) specially built for this mission. There's more planning that could've been done to prepare for Ellis's plan beyond just attempting to get the PWARW's ready. And thanks to the impatience, they were rendered useless because the replicators had a chance to build up an immunity to the ARGs.

:mckayanime18:

Anyways, in all this wonderful debating, I think I've gotten away from my initial point, which was that Ellis is less likely to support the ideas presented by civilian personnel than military personnel. He was too stuck on the military solution to the problem that he didn't even consider that there might have been alternate ways to deal with the solution.

Weir contacting the replicator homeworld might not seem like a good idea from a military standpoint, but we know that the replicators are not a united evil foe. There were factions that sought ascension rather than destruction, and Weir had hope that she might have been able to talk Oberoth or other replicators listening into a nonviolent solution. I mean, she managed to talk nukes out of the Genii in S1 even though they were bad guys at the time; that's a pretty big accomplishment. It cost nothing to try.

It's only around civilian personnel that Ellis was really brusque and sarcastic with. He has made moves on both Weir and McKay. I'm still sticking by that. And to bring this back to the overall point of this thread, its this reason that I think Ellis was so rude to McKay in BAMSR.

blue-skyz
January 19th, 2008, 09:33 AM
True, this wasn't Ellis's plan. My point was that Ellis pitched it stupidly. …snip…Nothing says that they don't value your input quite like that.
Ellis is not going to win any awards for tact. But he did it as fast as he could. He had critical timing issues.
The replicator ships could take off at any time.

And Ellis did not pitch the plan. He didn’t need input from Atlantis. All he wanted was to brief them, get McKay to check the nukes, and fulfill his orders. It was never meant to be a discussion.

I guess 'mutiny' was a poor choice of words on my part. More like Ellis caused dissention among the ranks. Everybody went along with it in the end (including Weir--because she had to), but McKay and Zelenka were definitely considering sabotaging the nuke platform before the launch.
‘dissention among the ranks’ was not his problem and he didn’t have time to bother with it.
Weir never went along with it. She never agreed, but it was never her place to agree.

Like McKay says to Zalenka, they can’t afford to take the chance of sabotaging the nukes; The replicators are building an armada.

And it was Ellis's job to explain the orders. That's what he was doing (poorly) in the briefing at the beginning of FS.
No. It was his job to brief them quickly, not convince them.

McKay outright asked Ellis if he thought this was a good plan before the launch
I doubt anyone, the president, O’Neill, the IOA, Ellis, Sheppard, McKay etc thought it was a ‘good’ plan. They all knew it was a stop gap measure, designed to slow the replicators down, keep them from starting to Earth, not wipe them out. Once they started to Earth they were unstoppable. In that context, Atlantis was expendable. This is a ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ scenario.

Sheppard I'm not too sure about because he was content to sit back, not really take sides, and let events play out.
Sheppard knew it wasn’t enough, but that the replicators could not be allowed to finish the ships and start to Earth.

…the two most likely candidates for the IOA to possibly consult with… Ellis was expressing his opinion of Weir, not the IOA's … If I recall, it was the IOA that had a problem making the decisions then … Maybe the IOA had it out for Elizabeth.
The IOA must have agreed with the decision to nuke the replicator ships, but the IOA does not command Ellis. His orders come from the military and the US government.

If the IOA had a problem with Weir, they could replace her.

And nothing was 'proved' by Weir when she tried to get the decision called off except that she thought it was a bad decision.
She was the one whining about being left out of the decision and not being trusted by the military. (An exit strategy by TPTB for Weir’s last episode in command. An expression of Weir’s original beliefs and why she was initially picked to run the SGC.)

It was a rush mission because the IOA and Ellis made it into a rush mission. Both Atlantis and Earth have a ZPM, and I assume they do regular check-ins like they always have. It wouldn't have been too hard to appraise them of the situation then.
Earth had a ZPM … in Antartica. The SGC could not dial Atlantis.

Or the Daedalus could have stopped by and informed Atlantis before they left for Earth with the sensitive intel….
Time critical intel. The intel was probably not interpreted until it got to Earth. But in any case, it was military data. It was a military decision. The military protects Earth. This decision was about Earth. Atlantis is an outpost controlled by the IOA. The military is not likely to share raw intel before an there is an informed decision to do so.

Anyways, in all this wonderful debating, I think I've gotten away from my initial point, which was that Ellis is less likely to support the ideas presented by civilian personnel than military personnel. He was too stuck on the military solution to the problem that he didn't even consider that there might have been alternate ways to deal with the solution.
Ellis didn’t have that option. He was under orders. His military commanders had made the decision, take it up with them.

It's only around civilian personnel that Ellis was really brusque and sarcastic with. He has made moves on both Weir and McKay. I'm still sticking by that. And to bring this back to the overall point of this thread, its this reason that I think Ellis was so rude to McKay in BAMSR.
Like I said in the beginning, ‘Ellis is not going to win any awards for tact.’ He was out-of-line dressing down McKay where someone in his chain of command was available to do it. Go Sam!

My guess is Ellis is as hard on his military subordinates as he is on civilians. When he sees a problem, he tries to correct it. Both instances, where we have seen him, speak of his efficiency and his need to get the job done. Both basically attributes.

MIZA
January 21st, 2008, 04:35 PM
great points, you have Blue_sky