For the last time...

[Catalase]

Two things I am REALLY getting tired of reading on this forum.

1. 'A ZPM explosion can take out almost a whole solar system!'
No. NO. Nooooo. Go and watch Zero Hour again.

• The ZPM was tainted with a substance.
• This substance had tremendous explosive potential when connected to a live current; even a microscopic scrapings with a current caused a large bang.
• Thus, connecting the tainted ZPM would transfer the tremendous power of the ZPM to the full amount of tainted substance on/in the ZPM.
• Therefore the tainted substance combined with the power of a ZPM would blow up a solar system. Without it, a ZPM does not have that sort of explosive potential
• For those who disagree, witness: Progeny, where 3 ZPM's are required merely to blow up a city-ship. Why? No tainted explosive substance.

2. 'The Odyssey has stronger weapons than Apollo and Daedalus because it has a ZPM!'
Consider this scenario:

• You have a hose. Lets call this the beam weapon hose.
• You have a bucket full of water. Lets call this the normal power bucket.
• And you have a large dam that supplies water to a city. Lets call it the ZPM dam.
• If you connect the hose so the water comes from the bucket: the hose size is fixed; there is a maximum amount of water that can come out at once. The bucket will output the full amount of water, but it will run out faster.
• If the hose is connected to the dam: the amount of water that can come out of the hose at once is STILL the same, but it will last a LOT longer than the bucket.
• Now, consider the actual beam weapons: capacitors, the actual cannon itself, etc, will have fixed physical limits. They can only output so much power at once.
• So: without a ZPM, the weapons are already at full power.
• With a ZPM: the weapons aren't going to get any more powerful.
• The ONLY exceptions to the weapons getting more powerful are this: writer fudging at a later date that comes up with a way to increase the power, OR, is the capacity of the weapons are actually such that the normal power DOESN'T provide full capacity.
• BUT: consider this. The Asgard gave earth everything. Their most advanced technologies. All their knowledge. The computer core itself has its own power supply. And you're going to tell me they didn't spring for the right batteries? Until the show states otherwise, the Asgard core/DSC-304 power supply is sufficient for powering the Asgard weapons.

"Full power to flame shields."

That is all.

[Col. Shadow Quinn]

Two things I am REALLY getting tired of reading on this forum.

1. 'A ZPM explosion can take out almost a whole solar system!'
No. NO. Nooooo. Go and watch Zero Hour again.

• The ZPM was tainted with a substance.
• This substance had tremendous explosive potential when connected to a live current; even a microscopic scrapings with a current caused a large bang.
• Thus, connecting the tainted ZPM would transfer the tremendous power of the ZPM to the full amount of tainted substance on/in the ZPM.
• Therefore the tainted substance combined with the power of a ZPM would blow up a solar system. Without it, a ZPM does not have that sort of explosive potential
• For those who disagree, witness: Progeny, where 3 ZPM's are required merely to blow up a city-ship. Why? No tainted explosive substance.

2. 'The Odyssey has stronger weapons than Apollo and Daedalus because it has a ZPM!'
Consider this scenario:

• You have a hose. Lets call this the beam weapon hose.
• You have a bucket full of water. Lets call this the normal power bucket.
• And you have a large dam that supplies water to a city. Lets call it the ZPM dam.
• If you connect the hose so the water comes from the bucket: the hose size is fixed; there is a maximum amount of water that can come out at once. The bucket will output the full amount of water, but it will run out faster.
• If the hose is connected to the dam: the amount of water that can come out of the hose at once is STILL the same, but it will last a LOT longer than the bucket.
• Now, consider the actual beam weapons: capacitors, the actual cannon itself, etc, will have fixed physical limits. They can only output so much power at once.
• So: without a ZPM, the weapons are already at full power.
• With a ZPM: the weapons aren't going to get any more powerful.
• The ONLY exceptions to the weapons getting more powerful are this: writer fudging at a later date that comes up with a way to increase the power, OR, is the capacity of the weapons are actually such that the normal power DOESN'T provide full capacity.
• BUT: consider this. The Asgard gave earth everything. Their most advanced technologies. All their knowledge. The computer core itself has its own power supply. And you're going to tell me they didn't spring for the right batteries? Until the show states otherwise, the Asgard core/DSC-304 power supply is sufficient for powering the Asgard weapons.

"Full power to flame shields."

That is all.

I completely agree with that.

[Myles]

# So: without a ZPM, the weapons are already at full power.
# With a ZPM: the weapons aren't going to get any more powerful

That's the only issue with your argument. You assume that the beam weapons are already fully powered. We have no idea if that's true. Plus, if the ZPM just made everything last longer, and not stronger, then what would be the point? Our ships don't look to be running out of juice in the middle of battle all the time.

[umopapisdn]

Theres very possibly a terminal amount of power that their tech can handle, it's like putting 1,000,000volts through a 1mm wire, it wouldn't work. It's just possible that the ZPM tops it up to the maximum where the m2NG was doing it at 90% (thats an arbitrary number BTW)

[thekillman]

about the oddy: you have a dam and a bucket of water. so far so good. if you attach the hose to the dam, you also get more pressure on the hose, pumping through more water and you get increased range and power. with enough pressure, you cut through steel. if you attach it to the bucket, less water pours through at the same time. and the pressure is less. now with the capacitor in the equasion, your right. if you have two dams, one contains a million liters and the other 1000 liters of water. each has a pipe heading to a 10 liter tank. there are two 10 l tanks and they arent connected. a hose is connected tothe 10l tank. the hose and the pipe cant be opened at the same time. the pressure, amount of water, and the amount of waterper second are equal. so it is safe to assume that there is a maximum amount of power wich can go through the powercircuit and the capacitors. yet for a ship with two powerfull powersources, its better to remove the capacitors and fire directly.

[Ranlier]

That's the only issue with your argument. You assume that the beam weapons are already fully powered. We have no idea if that's true. Plus, if the ZPM just made everything last longer, and not stronger, then what would be the point? Our ships don't look to be running out of juice in the middle of battle all the time.

He means to say that the beam weapons work on a capacitor system. The "beam" is fully charged, held, THEN fired.

A ZPM's purpose- the thing that makes it superior to non-ancient technology- is how much amperage ("power relative to time") can be drawn from it. This makes it useful for sheilds, which fail if not properly supplied with power constantly.

A beam weapon, however, the energy is consolidated over a period of nonoseconds to minutes and discharges when complete. A ZPM may make the beams fire at a faster pace, but it will not make them more powerful.

its better to remove the capacitors and fire directly.

Its difficult to have a beam of energy without a controlling factor such as a capacitor, and the buffer provided by the capacitor circuit prevents overload.

More directly, the capacitors allow the ZPM or other power source to focus on powering sheilds.

[umopapisdn]

He means to say that the beam weapons work on a capacitor system. The "beam" is fully charged, held, THEN fired.

A ZPM's purpose- the thing that makes it superior to non-ancient technology- is how much amperage ("power relative to time") can be drawn from it. This makes it useful for sheilds, which fail if not properly supplied with power constantly.

A beam weapon, however, the energy is consolidated over a period of nonoseconds to minutes and discharges when complete. A ZPM may make the beams fire at a faster pace, but it will not make them more powerful.

Thus why we could power an ancient satalite with a naq generator, we could slowly charge it.

[Zatnikitelman]

I see an issue with your water analogy. Granted, more water will be allowed to come out, but it will be of a higher pressure if going strictly by a graity feed system. Your argument holds up if you attach a pump between the reservoir and the host. But still, it's only a larger reservoir of power.
However, it is possible that the weapons are slightly more powerful.

[Myles]

He means to say that the beam weapons work on a capacitor system. The "beam" is fully charged, held, THEN fired.

A ZPM's purpose- the thing that makes it superior to non-ancient technology- is how much amperage ("power relative to time") can be drawn from it. This makes it useful for sheilds, which fail if not properly supplied with power constantly.

A beam weapon, however, the energy is consolidated over a period of nonoseconds to minutes and discharges when complete. A ZPM may make the beams fire at a faster pace, but it will not make them more powerful.



Its difficult to have a beam of energy without a controlling factor such as a capacitor, and the buffer provided by the capacitor circuit prevents overload.

More directly, the capacitors allow the ZPM or other power source to focus on powering sheilds.

We have no clue how these things work. It might be safe to say they have some kind of capacitor, but it's an assumption nonetheless. Also, the Oddy's beam weapons could have been designed with its ZPM in mind. Pretty much everything about it is unknown so it's hard to say how it works.

[thekillman]

yea the asgard had blueprints of our ships simply by scanning them. thats why the prometheus got asgard designed shields and hyperdrive and sensors, and not asgard hyperdrive and shields and sensors. asgard just gave us nice blueprints. wait that was with the deady. the prometheus got them asgard made and designed. the deadalus got asgard technology integrated into it. no doubt using blueprints from the asgard.
the oddy was most likely thorougly scanned before getting upgrades. then the new stuff got designed based upon the scans. the zpm was taken in the equasion aswell. otherwise thor wouldnt have said that the PC wouldnt infringe on their zpm.

[2ndgenerationalteran]

I do not believe that the Asuran city was destroyed due to an overloaded ZPM i believe that the ZPM overloaded the city's system which caused the explosion. That would explain why 3 ZPMS needed to be used. It would have made no sense if they needed 3 ZPMS to detonate them, rather it makes much more sense to need 3 ZPMs to overloade the city's systems and that is what caused the explosion.

[Mister Oragahn]

Two things I am REALLY getting tired of reading on this forum.

1. 'A ZPM explosion can take out almost a whole solar system!'
No. NO. Nooooo. Go and watch Zero Hour again.

• The ZPM was tainted with a substance.
• This substance had tremendous explosive potential when connected to a live current; even a microscopic scrapings with a current caused a large bang.
• Thus, connecting the tainted ZPM would transfer the tremendous power of the ZPM to the full amount of tainted substance on/in the ZPM.
• Therefore the tainted substance combined with the power of a ZPM would blow up a solar system. Without it, a ZPM does not have that sort of explosive potential
• For those who disagree, witness: Progeny, where 3 ZPM's are required merely to blow up a city-ship. Why? No tainted explosive substance.

2. 'The Odyssey has stronger weapons than Apollo and Daedalus because it has a ZPM!'
Consider this scenario:

• You have a hose. Lets call this the beam weapon hose.
• You have a bucket full of water. Lets call this the normal power bucket.
• And you have a large dam that supplies water to a city. Lets call it the ZPM dam.
• If you connect the hose so the water comes from the bucket: the hose size is fixed; there is a maximum amount of water that can come out at once. The bucket will output the full amount of water, but it will run out faster.
• If the hose is connected to the dam: the amount of water that can come out of the hose at once is STILL the same, but it will last a LOT longer than the bucket.
• Now, consider the actual beam weapons: capacitors, the actual cannon itself, etc, will have fixed physical limits. They can only output so much power at once.
• So: without a ZPM, the weapons are already at full power.
• With a ZPM: the weapons aren't going to get any more powerful.
• The ONLY exceptions to the weapons getting more powerful are this: writer fudging at a later date that comes up with a way to increase the power, OR, is the capacity of the weapons are actually such that the normal power DOESN'T provide full capacity.
• BUT: consider this. The Asgard gave earth everything. Their most advanced technologies. All their knowledge. The computer core itself has its own power supply. And you're going to tell me they didn't spring for the right batteries? Until the show states otherwise, the Asgard core/DSC-304 power supply is sufficient for powering the Asgard weapons.

"Full power to flame shields."

That is all.

The Obviously Obvious About Part I

(For the people up there who don't get it)

The energy has to come from somewhere. If the ZPM couldn't generate that energy, it must be the chemicals used to taint the ZPM.

My view on the ZPM, explained here and here.

Of course, you don't realize you're shooting your own foot here.

You don't propose another source for the energy, you simply state it's either the ZPM or the chemical substance.
Then you go through some mumbo jumbo about mixing a glass of ZPM and a spoon of tainting chemicals, shake and big boom.

It's rather obvious that you don't even begin to understand the magnitude of the energy we're speaking of here. Even IF the chemicals provided a minute portion of that energy (which I completely doubt), for the chemicals to be of any relevant in the total yield, it would place that substance on a scale that makes on particle of that substance billion times more powerful than a particle of even naqahdria, if not more.

You also totally miss that a ZPM has been repeatedly described as having an explosive potential, from the moment it overloads.

Progeny has been adressed a million times, and I provided a rather simple explanation: variable threshold for overload. This way, McKay set the overload at a level that would destroy the city, without literally blowing out the entire system.

The Obviously Obvious About Part II

You forget that it's a canon fact that under certain conditions, like a better power source, certain technologies see their capacities improved.
We've seen it for Asgard shields, for Asgard hyperdrives, and it could also apply to beam weapons.

Obviously, certain systems are not exploited to their full potential.
The Asgards and Replicators had hyperdrives which could let them cross the void between galaxies in several minutes.
Yet, even when plugging something like a ZPM worth of several supernova, inside a Daedalus, the ship in question didn't cross MW-Pegasus in minutes. Not even hours. It still took weeks.

Cause: limited hyperdrive.

The error, which you don't properly outline, is to think that there's no limit to how far a machine can be made better just by plugging a ZPM.

Say you have a starship. Its power core has 1 power unit.
Now, you have a ZPM, 1,000,000 power units (totally arbitrary value which is far below the truth).

Now, you feed the shields with the default power core. Your shield exploits that 1 power unit.

Now you plug your ZPM instead. Does that mean that the shield will use the 1,000,000 power units? No. You would be lucky if the shields actually exploits even 2 units of power from the ZPM.
There are plenty of factors to consider for that.

The system's own internal parts which can handle a given amount of energy.
The ship's power grid: the power conduits, either supraconductive quantum cables made of naqahdah or whatever, plasma conduits or subspace conduits (Atlantis?), they all have a maximum power flux.
This doesn't count the safeties such as buffer and software controlled limitations.


Now, can railguns get more powerful if we plug a ZPM inside the Daedalus?

Answer: no. Current railguns are small weapons, which, based on what they fire and the nozzle velocities, are already many orders of magnitude below what the ship can provide in terms of power.

Could this be done if the whole ship was a giant coilgun? Well, then, if you plan firing solid masses at high fractions of c, assuming that your technology can deal with the counter momentum, that your fields are stronger (the ZPM should also cover that) and that if you use a railgun instead, you have super tough materials, then yet, eventually, plugging a ZPM could allow a giant gun to fire projectiles faster.
But this would still be limited by the very design of your weapon.

Chances are that you wouldn't need something as powerful as a ZPM to reach the maximum capacity of most systems onboard a season 3 Daedalus, besides shields and hyperdrives (which, I repeat, are still very limited).

[jhkplaya888]

The Asgard gave earth everything. Their most advanced technologies. All their knowledge. The computer core itself has its own power supply. And you're going to tell me they didn't spring for the right batteries? Until the show states otherwise, the Asgard core/DSC-304 power supply is sufficient for powering the Asgard weapons.

i agree, the asgard must of gave us something that generates power for the shields and the weapons

[fugiman]

i agree, the asgard must of gave us something that generates power for the shields and the weapons

Never been shown in the show for one

Second the Asgard power source is based on Neutronium which is rare in the Stargate universe. Also many of the Asgard still didn't want to give Earth everything so I bet they didn't give us a power source because that would make us to powerful to soon and they wouldn't want that, I mean would you want Earth to be the most powerful force in the Milky Way just look at our track record just on Earth its not that great. So I bet this was a way to limit us by the Council and I bet it was a Compromise made between Thor and the Asgard Coucnil.


Also why would the writers let us have that poweful of weapons for every ship? If we did then we wouldn't really have much of a show as we are to powerful or the writers will make another super race (something I don't want)

[Freekzilla]

I would surmise that the Asgard weapons do have a higher limit as far as power goes. We've already seen it with the Asgard Hyperdrives. They can go fast with the power we send to it, but with the ZPM they can go faster, we've seen this in SGA "The Siege". Secondly, if the ZPM is left to power the shields only, then the power systems that would usually be powering the shields are free to power anything else, such as the weapons. So, it seems to be fairly typical for the Asgard technology to be quite efficient, and to have an expandable performance envelope provided the right circumstances, IE, more power. Also, water and electricity/power are not completely analgous, close but not 100%. For example, if you have 1000 feet of 20 gauge wire and you connect a simple 9 volt battery to it, with a completed circuit of course, and YOU become the circuit bridge, you're not going to feel much. This is because some of the power is lost, to heat etc, over that distance. But if you hook up a car battery and complete the ciruit, you're going to be looking for your fillings on your neighbor's lawn. So, in both cases power reached the end of the wire, but the 9 volt won't leave you with much to work with if it works at all. You could probably hook up that same wire to your house's electrical grid and work too. In those three cases, they all had different voltage, amperage and frequency.
So, I think when they have the ZPM hooked up, the weapons may be only slightly more powerful, but definitely have more capacity to fire more rapidly. Another thing to consider is, it's possible that the weapons, hyperdrive etc will function better with a "cleaner" power source, IE one without fluctuations or EM interference.