Al'keshes - weapons and power

[Mister Oragahn]

These ships really puzzle me.

They're called mid range bombers or something in Goa'uld, and have been used in different ways.

The funniest one is against troops, where they hover like 50 meters above the ground, and drop glowing balls of explosives or so.
The yield may be worth several thousands of megajoules, or less.

Yet, we've seen them used in other ways.
Aside from their role as tug ships (seen dragging Goa'uld cargo pods in Bounty I believe), they were seen firing their turret at Teal'c and O'neill in Exodus, used by SG-1 to scare off army men from an alien civilization.

These are very low end in fact, because the yields are often worth a portion of C4 and that's all.

However, we've all seen them used repeatedly against capital ships.

Exodus
An Al'kesh uncloaks within the shield perimeter of the Ha'tak used by SG-1 and starts shooting at the ship's hull with its turret, all at the same time dropping blue (ion?) bombs. The bomber did deal some significant damage to the ship's hull, which I remind you, is made of naqahdah, and has been seen able to withstand direct hits from other Ha'taks's main weapons, and resist the intense radiations of a blue giant for an hour.

Heroes
Al'keshes do straffing runs and drop bombs, blowing up small bits of ruins (pillars, walls, etc.).

Lost City Pt II
A couple of Al'keshes make circles around the Prometheus and try to wear her shields down, by dropping bombs. But the presence of the ancient outpost beneath seems to forbid Goa'uld from using greater yields.

Prometheus Unbound
Daniel and Vala move the Prometheus out, which is assaulted by Death Gliders and Al'keshes.

Reckoning
Probably the weirder case, where Ha'taks and Al'keshes, under Baal's command, are firing at Teal'c's and Bra'tac's ships.
Ok, Baal clearly was holding back then, but most impressive is the size of the fireballs fired from the Ha'taks. When they hit, they splatter against the shields of the rebels ships over a large arc.
But when the Al'keshes attack fire at the ship with their turret

And they seemed to deal some significant damage as well.

There's another episode involving the Trust I think, where the Prometheus is threatened by an Al'kesh, and fires two missiles at the Goa'uld ship, blowing it up.
There's also that old episode where Zipacna assaults a Tok'ra base with his ships, and we see a group of Al'keshes drop more bombs, which would be in the high megajoule range.

It's not the firt time that bits of dialogue have refer to Al'keshes as powerful ships either.

So what's the solution here? Are Al'keshes' weapons more or less weak in terms of pure energy against solid matter (high megajoule range), but able to weaken capital ships, with shields rated in the considerable gigaton range), thanks to some fancy technobabble?

If yes, this would have interesting implications on the weapons of Ha'taks, which are powerful enough to drop 200 megaton shots (at least) on cities.

[wkw427]

um.. They have a power dial for the main weapon?

The hull can be reinforced armour.. Really reinforced..

[Zatnikitelman]

Well since when are Goa'uld ships made of Naquadah? We've never seen or heard that in the show. The Alkesh seem powerful enough, don't forget that the energy may be specially tuned to damage shields more than just structural impact. The yields can be high without it seeming to be a nuclear class explosion. Especially if targeted toward infantry. You don't always use howitzers against infantry.

[Konrad9]

Anyone else think making a ship out of a fuel material is a bad idea?

Anyone?

[Daryl Froggy]

Yes. Making something out of fuel is a very bad idea... however Naquadah has very odd properties, after all the gates in the milky way are built out of the stuff so it doesn't rust apparently. It is possible that the Ha'taks are made out of an alloy that has Naquadah as one of its primary components.

[apollo22]

Well since when are Goa'uld ships made of Naquadah? We've never seen or heard that in the show. The Alkesh seem powerful enough, don't forget that the energy may be specially tuned to damage shields more than just structural impact. The yields can be high without it seeming to be a nuclear class explosion. Especially if targeted toward infantry. You don't always use howitzers against infantry.

naquadah has been mentioned a couple of times as being part of gould and asgard ships. in the season 7 episode orpheus, rya'c and bra'tac are working in a naquadah mine and refinery that is underneath a ha'tak under construction. also the asgard used carbon, trinium, and naquadah to build the hull of the o'neill class ship. . also in the episode, "enemy mine" the general is talkin and i cant remember the exact conversation so here is the transcript,

HAMMOND: "Colonel, General Vidrine is down from the Pentagon. He's been put in charge of BC-303 production."

VIDRINE: "We've read your report, colonel, and we agree that the evacuation was warranted. Unfortunately, however, with the Prometheus stranded halfway across the galaxy, Earth is currently vulnerable to orbital attack. Now, if someone can show me another way to acquire naquadah, or can make a battle cruiser without it, I'm listening. Otherwise we've got to go back to P3X-403."

so it is used pretty extensively in the contruction of ships

[Mister Oragahn]

Which is all good and nice, but doesn't solve the apparent issue how bombers being both shooting glorified grenade level bolts and bombs against infantry, and still representing a danger to ships with capital ship shielding and able to resist for quite some time the bombardment from Goa'uld motherships.

[Daryl Froggy]

It should be simple, they are capable of altering the amount of power emitted by their weapons, from Cap-ship hurting to infantry support and anywhere in between.

[Mister Oragahn]

It should be simple, they are capable of altering the amount of power emitted by their weapons, from Cap-ship hurting to infantry support and anywhere in between.

Yes, this is the most acceptable explanation, but for years, there's been that idea that Al'keshes were just mere anti infantry ships with no other ability.
It's that discrepancy... it's not made up you know. There's a really huge difference of energy between the yields we're speaking of.

The question is: can this "dialing power up/down" theory be honestly defended?

I wouldn't be surprised to see questions such as:

- why would System Lords allow the bombers to be so powerful while they don't control them?
- why didn't they use their super megaton firepower in case X or Y if they're capable of it then?

[Womble]

These ships really puzzle me.

They're called mid range bombers or something in Goa'uld, and have been used in different ways.

The funniest one is against troops, where they hover like 50 meters above the ground, and drop glowing balls of explosives or so.
The yield may be worth several thousands of megajoules, or less.

Yet, we've seen them used in other ways.
Aside from their role as tug ships (seen dragging Goa'uld cargo pods in Bounty I believe), they were seen firing their turret at Teal'c and O'neill in Exodus, used by SG-1 to scare off army men from an alien civilization.

These are very low end in fact, because the yields are often worth a portion of C4 and that's all.

However, we've all seen them used repeatedly against capital ships.

Exodus
An Al'kesh uncloaks within the shield perimeter of the Ha'tak used by SG-1 and starts shooting at the ship's hull with its turret, all at the same time dropping blue (ion?) bombs. The bomber did deal some significant damage to the ship's hull, which I remind you, is made of naqahdah, and has been seen able to withstand direct hits from other Ha'taks's main weapons, and resist the intense radiations of a blue giant for an hour.

Heroes
Al'keshes do straffing runs and drop bombs, blowing up small bits of ruins (pillars, walls, etc.).

Lost City Pt II
A couple of Al'keshes make circles around the Prometheus and try to wear her shields down, by dropping bombs. But the presence of the ancient outpost beneath seems to forbid Goa'uld from using greater yields.

Prometheus Unbound
Daniel and Vala move the Prometheus out, which is assaulted by Death Gliders and Al'keshes.

Reckoning
Probably the weirder case, where Ha'taks and Al'keshes, under Baal's command, are firing at Teal'c's and Bra'tac's ships.
Ok, Baal clearly was holding back then, but most impressive is the size of the fireballs fired from the Ha'taks. When they hit, they splatter against the shields of the rebels ships over a large arc.
But when the Al'keshes attack fire at the ship with their turret

And they seemed to deal some significant damage as well.

There's another episode involving the Trust I think, where the Prometheus is threatened by an Al'kesh, and fires two missiles at the Goa'uld ship, blowing it up.
There's also that old episode where Zipacna assaults a Tok'ra base with his ships, and we see a group of Al'keshes drop more bombs, which would be in the high megajoule range.

It's not the firt time that bits of dialogue have refer to Al'keshes as powerful ships either.

So what's the solution here? Are Al'keshes' weapons more or less weak in terms of pure energy against solid matter (high megajoule range), but able to weaken capital ships, with shields rated in the considerable gigaton range), thanks to some fancy technobabble?

If yes, this would have interesting implications on the weapons of Ha'taks, which are powerful enough to drop 200 megaton shots (at least) on cities.

As far as I can tell, Al'kesh class ships have two types of attack weapons- energy bombs and a retractable staff cannon in the underbelly. The staff cannot appears to be of a bigger caliber than that of a death glider.

Now, the bombs are definitely high-yield, but due to them being energy bombs, they produce no shrapnel and only a modest blast wave, hence very little area damage. Their power goes mainly into depth penetration. My guess is that these bombs are "bunker busters", designed to defeat fortified underground structures such as the Tok'ra tunnels. The Goa'uld appear to neglect surface combat completely (somewhat justifiably, seeing how few races possess shoulder-fired surface-to-air weapons) so it is possible that they have simply never designed anti-personnel munitions for Al'kesh.

As for the cannon- being an energy weapon, it may have a variable power output. It is also possible that there exists more than one modification of the Al'kesh, with cannons of different yield.

[Mister Oragahn]

As far as I can tell, Al'kesh class ships have two types of attack weapons- energy bombs and a retractable staff cannon in the underbelly. The staff cannot appears to be of a bigger caliber than that of a death glider.

We have seen, thus far, three types of weapons.

The belly turret: two death glider cannons.
Yellow shiny bombs, likely dropped from the red glowing apertures seen on the back of the bomber.
Blue shiny bombs, seen only once, in Exodus, and generating blue arcs all over the surface of the hull of the Ha'tak it assaulted.

Now, the bombs are definitely high-yield, but due to them being energy bombs, they produce no shrapnel and only a modest blast wave, hence very little area damage.

They're not more high yield than the turrets. The turrets have been used against ha'taks as well, both in Exodus and Reckoning. Yellow bombs have been used against infantry in less than spectacular ways, and the lack of shrapnel doesn't mean much in that case, since if the bombs were really powerful, their blast would be particularily impressive and all you need to deal damage without even having the flames kiss your enemy's face.

Their power goes mainly into depth penetration. My guess is that these bombs are "bunker busters", designed to defeat fortified underground structures such as the Tok'ra tunnels.

This would have been a better explanation safe that a glowing thing makes no sense, especially considering the speeds which they're fired at. A good bunker buster, especially fired into a soft soil, would have much to gain by entering the ground violently, which the bombs do not.
They're just glorified bags of grenades.

The Goa'uld appear to neglect surface combat completely (somewhat justifiably, seeing how few races possess shoulder-fired surface-to-air weapons) so it is possible that they have simply never designed anti-personnel munitions for Al'kesh.

Their turrets are actually good at dealing with infantry, like Death Gliders' cannons.
Now range and accuracy is another problem, but the Al'kesh's turreted cannons enables it to hover above its target and fire over a wide angle.

As for the cannon- being an energy weapon, it may have a variable power output. It is also possible that there exists more than one modification of the Al'kesh, with cannons of different yield.

Dialable weapons, or different designs, are possible explanations. I'd, of course, favour the first one, since I don't see any logic in how such standardized ships would have so diametrally opposed weapons.
But the dialable weapons poses problems as well, because I can't even picture an Al'kesh in high orbit, starting to shoot down cities with megaton or even at least kiloton level shots.





And now, for those who can't picture the level of destruction we're dealing with, and since it's time for wank, let's go look at some videos.

Let's first start with 100 tons of explosives, spread over five aligned charges.
Can anyone think of an Al'kesh doing this?
Yet, it's nothing against what would be necessary to start tickling a Ha'tak, hull or shields.

Maybe you'd like to see that?
Yet, it's nothing against what would be necessary to start tickling a Ha'tak, hull or shields.

There's another conventionnal weapon for you.
Yet, it's nothing against what would be necessary to start tickling a Ha'tak, hull or shields.

Another video, with big tough guys doing some manly things and wetting their pants at the big badaboom.
From the poster: "What happens when you detonate 429 tons of military grade high explosives all at once. The initial explosion at the very beginning is only 30 tons.
To give you a size perspective this video was shot from 2-3 miles away out side of the frag radius (sort of).
If you watch closely you can see the blast wave travel toward us."
Yet, it's nothing against what would be necessary to start tickling a Ha'tak, hull or shields.

Let's see another test, featuring a charge with a yield of 500 tons.
Yet, it's nothing against what would be necessary to start tickling a Ha'tak, hull or shields.



Now let's get in higher yeilds.

Grable. 15 KT. More or less Hiroshima.
Yet, it's nothing against what would be necessary to start tickling a Ha'tak, hull or shields.

Ivy Mike. A little bit more than 10 MT.
Getting closer but not there yet.

Now, the final sweet. A little bit more than 50 MT.
You only start to get noticed by a Ha'tak (which can withstand fully directed energy blasts of 200 MT repeatedly, if not more).

[Womble]

We have seen, thus far, three types of weapons.

The belly turret: two death glider cannons.
Yellow shiny bombs, likely dropped from the red glowing apertures seen on the back of the bomber.
Blue shiny bombs, seen only once, in Exodus, and generating blue arcs all over the surface of the hull of the Ha'tak it assaulted.

I think I've seen an Al'kesh with a single large belly cannon; certainly larger than a death glider one. (I think it was in the episode when Teal'c shoots down the Al'kesh with Tanith inside and gets stuck inside the gate's data buffer).

Yellow bombs have been used against infantry in less than spectacular ways, and the lack of shrapnel doesn't mean much in that case, since if the bombs were really powerful, their blast would be particularily impressive and all you need to deal damage without even having the flames kiss your enemy's face.

Without sharnel and a blast wave from chemical explosion, just how were they supposed to generate area damage?

This would have been a better explanation safe that a glowing thing makes no sense, especially considering the speeds which they're fired at. A good bunker buster, especially fired into a soft soil, would have much to gain by entering the ground violently, which the bombs do not.

Only if it's a solid core bomb. We do not know the principle of operation of glowing spheres of charged God-knows-what.

Their turrets are actually good at dealing with infantry, like Death Gliders' cannons.

Death glider cannons are extremely lousy as far as producing casualties. Their rate of fire is too slow to strafe whole areas like machine guns can, and their projectiles' explosions produce no shrapnel. It is quite rare for them to score a hit, just watch any death glider-featuring episode.

Dialable weapons, or different designs, are possible explanations. I'd, of course, favour the first one, since I don't see any logic in how such standardized ships would have so diametrally opposed weapons.

The logic could be very simple:

1)Older models vs. newer models
2)Specialized vessels that trade firepower for something else, be that flight endurance, armor/shields, engine power, better detection hardware, etc.
3)Rushed building. Finding themselves short of standard Al'kesh parts just when they are in a dire need of operational combat vessels, the Goa'uld could have hastily slapped together a fleet of substandard ships using death glider parts or whatever else was available. The closest example is the German factories during late World war II being forced to build Messerschmitt Bf 109 variants with heavy engines originally designed for Junkers bombers because there weren't enough Messerschmitt ones produced in time; they were also forced to greatly reduce the warplane's firepower in order to keep its weight balanced with the new engine.
Edit- another possibility is a "pocket battleship"- a souped-up Al'kesh fitted with a primary weapon powerful enough to take on heavier ships. Kind of like the German Deutschland-class heavy cruisers that were designed to outgun any ship they couldn't outrun, and outrun any ship they couldn't outgun.

But the dialable weapons poses problems as well, because I can't even picture an Al'kesh in high orbit, starting to shoot down cities with megaton or even at least kiloton level shots.

They don't need to, they have Ha'taks for that. Al'kesh are for more precise work. You don't hammer in nails with a sledgehammer.

[ijffdrie]

4. created by different goa'uld equipped with different technology

[Mister Oragahn]

I think I've seen an Al'kesh with a single large belly cannon; certainly larger than a death glider one. (I think it was in the episode when Teal'c shoots down the Al'kesh with Tanith inside and gets stuck inside the gate's data buffer).

48 Hours, season 5. I don't think it had any different turret than the others.

I also checked Gateworld's own omnipedia to see which episodes I missed.

Without sharnel and a blast wave from chemical explosion, just how were they supposed to generate area damage?

I didn't there was no blast. Just no evidence of shrapnel. What I said is that the blast would compensate the lack of shrapnel due to the disintegration of the bomb's shell.

We don't know what those glowy things are. They could be bombs protected by some shield or radiations some glowy field, or just forms of plasma balls.

Only if it's a solid core bomb. We do not know the principle of operation of glowing spheres of charged God-knows-what.

No, you don't cut it. Even if it's technobabble, the only way for the bomb to be akin to a bunker blaster would be to "dissolve" matter in its path zat style or squid style. They just drop and explode. They don't penetrate, and only solids with a specifically shaped heads and lots of speed can achieve the penetration here.

Eventually, you could always pretend that the bomb cause a sort of chemical explosion AND release some other wave of shmuk we can't see, something that would either fragilize the soil, stun people, fry electronics (that would be the blue bombs imho), etc.

Death glider cannons are extremely lousy as far as producing casualties. Their rate of fire is too slow to strafe whole areas like machine guns can, and their projectiles' explosions produce no shrapnel. It is quite rare for them to score a hit, just watch any death glider-featuring episode.

I agree, safe on the fact that they do have some area damage, and they're quite capable of firing off-axis (Lost City shows the Gliders literally shooting downwards, while the Gliders themselves keep looking at the horizon ahead of them).
But the Al'kesh turret is not different. It's just a pair of strapped cannons.

Now, don't get me wrong. The usual bad aim we hear a lot, I think that part is not a limitation of the technology per se, but just a choice of design from the Goa'uld, regarding the weapons they give their servants.
The technology the Goa'uld possess easily allows them to produce weapons which would have a formidable aim if they wanted to. They could produce rail/coilguns. They could produce missiles.
They have all the tech, the ingredients and power to do so.

It's just that they prefer use weapons of terror rather than weapons of war.
It's also rather obvious that when you have super computer which can store asgard minds and even let such a mind freely navigate like if it was a huge brain, or when same computers can calculate extremely precise FTL jumps, there's no reason why ships equipped with FTL sensors couldn't precisely target a rat on a planet.

It's just that the Gliders and Al'keshes are equipped with weapons which don't seem to be about aim at all.
Their ranges are rather awful, but the targets they usually deal with are either slave villages or towns, or other ships of the same level, all for the amusement of their Lords.

The logic could be very simple:

1)Older models vs. newer models
2)Specialized vessels that trade firepower for something else, be that flight endurance, armor/shields, engine power, better detection hardware, etc.
3)Rushed building. Finding themselves short of standard Al'kesh parts just when they are in a dire need of operational combat vessels, the Goa'uld could have hastily slapped together a fleet of substandard ships using death glider parts or whatever else was available. The closest example is the German factories during late World war II being forced to build Messerschmitt Bf 109 variants with heavy engines originally designed for Junkers bombers because there weren't enough Messerschmitt ones produced in time; they were also forced to greatly reduce the warplane's firepower in order to keep its weight balanced with the new engine.
Edit- another possibility is a "pocket battleship"- a souped-up Al'kesh fitted with a primary weapon powerful enough to take on heavier ships. Kind of like the German Deutschland-class heavy cruisers that were designed to outgun any ship they couldn't outrun, and outrun any ship they couldn't outgun.

1. Doesn't work. A plenty of bombers we've seen belonged to Anubis and his croonies, and they were used either against infantry or capital ships.
2. If they trade firepower for something else, then there would be no point using Al'keshes against capital ships.
3. I can't see Anubis ever being in a rush, when he was rolling out Kull warriors by hundreds, motherships here and there, and came with a new pimping super ship nearly as soon as he lost the first one.
3b. A pity that the souped up Al'keshes, if this was true, don't appear to have any difference in terms of behaviour, abilities, manoeuverability and range to other Al'keshes, safe that some attack capital ships and others don't.
But as much as unfortunate this is, the special Al'kesh is probably one of the most acceptable theories.

They don't need to, they have Ha'taks for that. Al'kesh are for more precise work. You don't hammer in nails with a sledgehammer.

Then it's totally stupid to attack capital ships with them, and it's even more absurd to have characters be concerned about Al'keshes attacking their big ships, if the Al'keshes couldn't fire such powerful shots.
See the problem?

[Lord batchi ball]

While I see the confusion with the bombs. I think they are all the same yield since that (as far as I am aware of) the Alkesh have never bombed a Earth vessal or any other with the shields up while someone was montering the shield strength. And while they were in space and not in the atmosphere, which has the possibilites of affecting the shield.

And against the tok'ra tunnels we have no Idea exactly now deep they are and there structual limits such they may only be able to handle a 3.5 siesmic event, which a bomb could create.

But I find interesting is in Promethous Unbound when Hammand returns with the Alkesh and blows up the other Alkesh with just a couple of shots, and from previous episodes they are known to have the yield of a Death Glider. Then in Exodus Teal'c shoots the Alkesh twice (four blasts total) and the engine fails thats it.