PDA

View Full Version : Where's Carter?



inta
December 8th, 2007, 03:09 AM
obviously the lanteans would be oblivous to her existence, but shouldn't she have been a part of the real Atlantis investigation on in this episode?

she was the smartest one of the SGC, and well aware of replicator technologies.
she should at least be getting her feet wet alongside Becket to figure out these new problems.

I hate to see her in a Hammond/Weir type role of doing nothing but "ok I give you the go" type spots.

I want the old Scientist Carter.

g.o.d
December 8th, 2007, 03:39 AM
all-knowing Carter saves the day once again. Hell, no! I was happy when she wasn't in TMC: Damn, I want Elizabeth back, not Carter

Arturis
December 8th, 2007, 03:58 AM
With all the science going on... wasn't it established a long time ago that Carter is smarter than McKay? 48 Hours anyone?

Jumper_One
December 8th, 2007, 07:50 AM
I would've liked to see her (at least when Shep and Rodney track the Replicator ships) but her not being in TMC also means she'll be in 8 more eps this season :) and I think TBTB didn't want her and Weir in an ep, possibly to appease fans or avoid certain reactions. at least that's what I think

Teelie
December 8th, 2007, 09:04 AM
With all the science going on... wasn't it established a long time ago that Carter is smarter than McKay? 48 Hours anyone?

Smarter she may be, super human she is not. She's the administrator/military commander on Atlantis now and doesn't have time to play with the science nerds when absolutely not necessary.

kirmit
December 8th, 2007, 09:09 AM
all-knowing Carter saves the day once again. Hell, no! I was happy when she wasn't in TMC: Damn, I want Elizabeth back, not Carter

Why do people keep saying this? When this season has she been shown to be all knowing or even save the day?

Carter wasn't needed in this episode, most of it was spent on the fake Atlantis which she couldn't be apart of then we were on the real Atlantis for what a few minutes, the rest of the show was offworld where she wouldn't be needed.

g.o.d
December 8th, 2007, 09:15 AM
Why do people keep saying this? When this season has she been shown to be all knowing or even save the day?


I'm sure her day will come. She has been saving the day in SG-1 too often and she will do it in SGA again. And why am I saying this? Because this is the reason why I hate her character so much

kirmit
December 8th, 2007, 09:31 AM
I'm sure her day will come. She has been saving the day in SG-1 too often and she will do it in SGA again. And why am I saying this? Because this is the reason why I hate her character so much

So what you saying is as of yet she's done nothing wrong in Atlantis but you still hate her. How do you know she's going to start saving the day? She's in a leader position now and AT has said she's is playing a different character now, we're at the halfway now and still no Carter saves the day episodes.

Sorry but you don't really seem to have a good reason to hate the character, all of SG-1 saved the day, that was their job. She saved the day as much as any of the other characters except when she did it, it was through scientific means usually. Most of the time she did save the day she usally had outside help i.e. blow up a sun, help from the Tok'ra, Activate Dakaara, help from Jacob and Ba'al.

Teelie
December 8th, 2007, 09:33 AM
With some people, they don't need a reason to dislike or hate a character, they just do. There've been a few characters in the SG past I didn't care for and had no real reason though it wasn't to the point of hating one like that.

kirmit
December 8th, 2007, 09:41 AM
With some people, they don't need a reason to dislike or hate a character, they just do. There've been a few characters in the SG past I didn't care for and had no real reason though it wasn't to the point of hating one like that.

I agreed with that, I was just pointing out she isn't an all knowing smartass who always saves the day, which G.O.D. said was the reason he hated her.

Teelie
December 8th, 2007, 10:16 AM
Oh, true. She has been stumped quite a number of times and there have been episodes where Jack has exaggerated her intelligence and "save the day" skills.

Pajus
December 8th, 2007, 10:20 AM
For once I'm glad Overgrown sissy-toy wasn't there. Elizabeth is soooooooooo much better. The bad thing is that the overuse of Whining baby and We come in peace, shoot to kill made up for it

andromeda_dan
December 8th, 2007, 10:49 AM
'been there, done that, I'll let the newbies take care of this situation, The Simpsons' on, time to head to the gate and watch it with the General.';)

VSS
December 8th, 2007, 10:51 AM
I agreed with that, I was just pointing out she isn't an all knowing smartass who always saves the day, which G.O.D. said was the reason he hated her.

No, that would be Rodney.;)
And I do mean that fondly.

Varrok
December 8th, 2007, 10:55 AM
She might be in the movie ;)

We know that they were shooting at the same time so..

And in the movie she'll be on earth aswell, wont spoil any of that, but she's there aswell.. there ya go ;) You can see that shep's in command on atlantis.

kirmit
December 8th, 2007, 10:57 AM
No, that would be Rodney.;)
And I do mean that fondly.

Lol yeah true, that is Rodney, funny how no one complains about that though :P.

Avenger
December 8th, 2007, 12:13 PM
She might be in the movie ;)

We know that they were shooting at the same time so..

And in the movie she'll be on earth aswell, wont spoil any of that, but she's there aswell.. there ya go ;) You can see that shep's in command on atlantis.

Well, yeah, that's pretty much it. They were shooting the movies, so it limit's AT's ability to be on the Atlantis set.

Extrenix
December 8th, 2007, 12:22 PM
carter : PLease dont show up go back to Cheyenne montain lol.
AT said her character would take a radical change of path. So far I still dont understand why they put her there in the first place.

IcyNeko
December 8th, 2007, 12:25 PM
all-knowing Carter saves the day once again. Hell, no! I was happy when she wasn't in TMC: Damn, I want Elizabeth back, not Carter

Since when has Carter been the day-saver in Atlantis?

You really need to tone down the hate.

g.o.d
December 8th, 2007, 12:27 PM
Since when has Carter been the day-saver in Atlantis?

You really need to tone down the hate.

why?


http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=7411632&postcount=7

IcyNeko
December 8th, 2007, 12:41 PM
why?


http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=7411632&postcount=7

Go cry us a plague, Maya.

Lord batchi ball
December 8th, 2007, 12:42 PM
I was thinking when watching lastnight's episode, "where is Carter"? I am still wondering where she went.

Luz
December 8th, 2007, 12:47 PM
Since when has Carter been the day-saver in Atlantis?

You really need to tone down the hate.
LOL, NAH! as fans we can hate whatever character we damn well please to, I'm glad tptb were thoughtful and kept Carter-Sue out of TMC, at least I can watch the episode without wanting to vomit.

chocdoc
December 8th, 2007, 12:49 PM
I was thinking when watching lastnight's episode, "where is Carter"? I am still wondering where she went.


I was wondering that too -- I was at least expecting a mention about her. I guess we are to assume that she knows what Shep and his team are doing and approves.

IcyNeko
December 8th, 2007, 12:49 PM
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y89/IcyNeko/Thx.jpg

kirmit
December 8th, 2007, 01:07 PM
LOL, NAH! as fans we can hate whatever character we damn well please to, I'm glad tptb were thoughtful and kept Carter-Sue out of TMC, at least I can watch the episode without wanting to vomit.

This is a prime example of how immature some fans can be :mckay:.

Teelie
December 8th, 2007, 01:11 PM
And one reason I don't post or visit fansite forums very often. You come into a forum for discussion and debate and instead get petty squabbles, immature remarks and the occasional flame or troll though GateWorld is thankfully rarely struck by that.

Shouldn't the haters be off in a hating thread or at least provide some kind of substance to their arguments? If I don't like someone/plot/story/etc I at least try to give an explanation not just "so and so sucks and I wish they were dead" or just rant about the same thing endlessly.

IcyNeko
December 8th, 2007, 01:13 PM
hahahaha. :)

Ok, contributive, Carter is probably back at IOA proceedings and such.

Teelie
December 8th, 2007, 01:14 PM
Or busy doing her job as the head of Atlantis. It's not like before where she was just apart of a squad and didn't have to command anyone directly or administrate a large scientific research facility along with the military component. She may show up in the next episode but I doubt it will be to save the day. That's Rodney's job now. :)

IcyNeko
December 8th, 2007, 01:16 PM
Well, I'd assume that if Sheppard's team just found repliclone Weir, that carter would be heading up the discussions on whether or not to go and walk into a potential trap.

Carter's pretty much head of all Atlantis, both Civvie and Military... she outranks Sheppard, and she's head of expedition. :D

KiLL3r
December 8th, 2007, 01:27 PM
she was on a picnic with jack at the time, and had their radios switched off ;)

IcyNeko
December 8th, 2007, 01:28 PM
she was on a picnic with jack at the time, and had their radios switched off ;)

I disagree. Jack doesn't picnic.

he does, however, fish. With a pond. That is now full of fish.

KiLL3r
December 8th, 2007, 01:47 PM
I disagree. Jack doesn't picnic.

he does, however, fish. With a pond. That is now full of fish.

exactly carter was having the picnic while jack just went fishing :jack:

Jumper_One
December 8th, 2007, 01:55 PM
exactly carter was having the picnic while jack just went fishing :jack:

or they went to his cabin and both of them had a good time with the picnic and fishing

prion
December 8th, 2007, 02:22 PM
Er, decided to stop reading most of this thread due to the comments on both side of the fence.

Carter is... who knows where? At base doing her job. At the SGC? Stuck at the airport? When we haven't had her there, it's had an empty feeling, but I honestly didn't miss her at all last night in any respect as Weir was back. But that's another story.

The thing is this isn't the first time fans go "huh?" in respect to missing characters. A throwaway line could easily explain a character's absence, like Teyla last week, but well, the writers don't seem to think of them.

Shiro
December 8th, 2007, 02:26 PM
Er, decided to stop reading most of this thread due to the comments on both side of the fence.

Carter is... who knows where? At base doing her job. At the SGC? Stuck at the airport? When we haven't had her there, it's had an empty feeling, but I honestly didn't miss her at all last night in any respect as Weir was back. But that's another story.

The thing is this isn't the first time fans go "huh?" in respect to missing characters. A throwaway line could easily explain a character's absence, like Teyla last week, but well, the writers don't seem to think of them.
It's interesting, because they did always used to have that throw away line in SG-1. Like Daniel would mention that Sam is at Area 51 fiddling with some alien gadget or whatever.

You're right, she could have been anywhere. I was initially thinking that she could easily have been put in to the episode, if the writers had bothered to, but then I changed my mind as Sam probably didn't fit in to this story.

However, it's important to consider that if characters don't naturally appear in the plots that are being written, then are they serving the purpose that was intended?

Agent_Dark
December 8th, 2007, 03:47 PM
Go cry us a plague, Maya.

haha

Agent_Dark
December 8th, 2007, 03:48 PM
LOL, NAH! as fans we can hate whatever character we damn well please to, I'm glad tptb were thoughtful and kept Carter-Sue out of TMC, at least I can watch the episode without wanting to vomit.

LOL WEIR'S DEAD

PG15
December 8th, 2007, 10:04 PM
Carter was...not needed in this episode. 'Nuff said.

At least they didn't cram her into the episode like they did with Weir sometimes.

doylefan22
December 9th, 2007, 03:42 AM
I hate to see her in a Hammond/Weir type role of doing nothing but "ok I give you the go" type spots.

I want the old Scientist Carter.

I'm afraid that's the role she's got and rightly so IMO. She was brought in as leader. Atlantis already has a genius scientist and one who has far more experience with Ancient tech and Atlantis than she does.

I was worried that McKay would lose some of his role when she joined and I'm glad that hasn't been the case.

prion
December 9th, 2007, 01:04 PM
Carter was...not needed in this episode. 'Nuff said.

At least they didn't cram her into the episode like they did with Weir sometimes.

carter was not in the episode because tapping isn't in six of the 20 episodes, not because she wasn't needed per se. As the boss of the base, she'd have a say on the team going off on a meeting with a replicator ;) The actress simply wasn't available. she was making movies ;)

g.o.d
December 9th, 2007, 01:06 PM
she's even more invisible than Teyla.. Teyla 2.0

mapsc
December 9th, 2007, 01:12 PM
carter was not in the episode because tapping isn't in six of the 20 episodes, not because she wasn't needed per se. As the boss of the base, she'd have a say on the team going off on a meeting with a replicator ;) The actress simply wasn't available. she was making movies ;)

She wouldn't just "have a say", she would make the call.

Mike P.

jenks
December 9th, 2007, 01:27 PM
One of the many problems with Weir was that she was written into episodes she didn't need to be in just for the sake of it, I'm glad they have made an effort not to make the same mistake with Carter.

Pajus
December 9th, 2007, 01:38 PM
And one reason I don't post or visit fansite forums very often. You come into a forum for discussion and debate and instead get petty squabbles, immature remarks and the occasional flame or troll though GateWorld is thankfully rarely struck by that.

Shouldn't the haters be off in a hating thread or at least provide some kind of substance to their arguments? If I don't like someone/plot/story/etc I at least try to give an explanation not just "so and so sucks and I wish they were dead" or just rant about the same thing endlessly.

Let's discuss this: Why is Carter the new head of Atlantis? There are at least a dozen people already in Atlantis that are more qualified for the job.


Carter was...not needed in this episode. 'Nuff said.


IMHO she's not needed in any episode for that matter.


she's even more invisible than Teyla.. Teyla 2.0

Calling Overgrown sissy-toy Ass-kicking wallpaper 2.0 is an affront to Ass-kicking wallpaper.

jenks
December 9th, 2007, 01:44 PM
Let's discuss this: Why is Carter the new head of Atlantis? There are at least a dozen people already in Atlantis that are more qualified for the job.




Name one.

g.o.d
December 9th, 2007, 01:45 PM
Name one.

Daniel Jackson

jenks
December 9th, 2007, 01:46 PM
He's not in Atlantis.

jelgate
December 9th, 2007, 01:46 PM
Daniel JacksonYou got to be joking

g.o.d
December 9th, 2007, 01:47 PM
He's not in Atlantis.

oops, my mistake. I didn't read Pajus' post properly :)

Agent_Dark
December 9th, 2007, 01:49 PM
Daniel Jackson

lol try again. daniel couldn't organise a pissup in a brewery. and nor should he, because he's never shown any desire or inclination too.

g.o.d
December 9th, 2007, 01:51 PM
lol try again. daniel couldn't organise a pissup in a brewery. and nor should he, because he's never shown any desire or inclination too.

and Carter, of course, could...

Agent_Dark
December 9th, 2007, 02:05 PM
and Carter, of course, could...

shes been leading the research division at area51, had temp command of the sgc while Landry has been absent, and was promoted to command of Atlantis. evidence says otherwise to you.

kirmit
December 9th, 2007, 02:09 PM
shes been leading the research division at area51, had temp command of the sgc while Landry has been absent, and was promoted to command of Atlantis. evidence says otherwise to you.

I think the point is shes never shown any desire to lead Atlantis like Daniel.

g.o.d
December 9th, 2007, 02:12 PM
shes been leading the research division at area51, had temp command of the sgc while Landry has been absent, and was promoted to command of Atlantis. evidence says otherwise to you.

research division is something different than Atlantis.

Detox
December 9th, 2007, 02:16 PM
research division is something different than Atlantis.

Hardly, she's still mostly just doing Weir's duties. Which involves overseeing base research, administration work, etc. Most of the military duties are still handled by Sheppard.

kirmit
December 9th, 2007, 02:29 PM
Hardly, she's still mostly just doing Weir's duties. Which involves overseeing base research, administration work, etc. Most of the military duties are still handled by Sheppard.

Actually Atlantis is a whole different kettle. She may be leading but it's totally different, she doesn't go over battle tactics, have to deal with alien relations, oversee the protection of an entire base and despite Sheppard being there she is still military so will take responsibility for alot of the mititary duties at R and D. R and D you basically just look over people's work, find solutions to scientific things and make sure everyone is doing their jobs.

PG15
December 9th, 2007, 04:22 PM
^So her 10 years on SG1 meant nothing? The years in which she had to deal with "battle tactics" and "alien relations" had no effect?

Copernicus
December 9th, 2007, 04:32 PM
For the "why is she is charge?" crowd:
If I were on the IOA, given the events of The Return, I would be concerned about promoting to leader someone that has been on the expedition since day one. In my mind, as an IOA member, Carter will not be as likely to consider Atlantis home and as such will be more dispassionate and objective when making decisions, which, given the IOA's track record, I am probably going to consider a positive attribute.

I'm not seeking to say I like Carter or Weir better: I can just see the logic of putting someone like Carter in charge.

Ltcolshepjumper
December 9th, 2007, 04:37 PM
well, here is where you run into the problem- if something big (and long term) came up in the Milky Way, carter would have to be there for an extended amount of time. this is the primary reason why Carter as head of Atlantis is illogical. It's not like they have another carter or Mckay back at the SGC. That's the problem.

Agent_Dark
December 9th, 2007, 04:43 PM
I think the point is shes never shown any desire to lead Atlantis like Daniel.

please reference the episodes and dialouge where daniel expresses his desire to lead atlantis.

Teelie
December 9th, 2007, 05:48 PM
Daniel desired very much to visit Atlantis but I don't remember anything where he wanted to lead the expedition although it's possible he did just before the Atlantis series started.

Mitchell82
December 9th, 2007, 07:28 PM
Since when has Carter been the day-saver in Atlantis?

You really need to tone down the hate.

Sadly the Carter haters won't tone down. SHe has been great this season and has helped save the day but her main job now is aproving the save the day at the IIth hour plans. She wasn't needed here but so far she is far better than Weir.

Pajus
December 10th, 2007, 02:38 AM
Name one.

We come in peace, shoot to kill (I know he refused the job), All-eating grumpy man (most qualified except for We come in peace, shoot to kill and has expressed willingness to accept the job) and a ton of people TPTBs never mentioned. Even Scruffy genius is more qualified for this job that Overgrown sissy-toy


^So her 10 years on SG1 meant nothing? The years in which she had to deal with "battle tactics" and "alien relations" had no effect?


Sadly the Carter haters won't tone down. SHe has been great this season and has helped save the day but her main job now is aproving the save the day at the IIth hour plans. She wasn't needed here but so far she is far better than Weir.

I'll ask you one little question: Before taking command of Atlantis, when was the last time Overgrown sissy-toy has seen a Wraith with her own two eyes? How could the IOA even consider sending a person of such a "qualification" is beyond me

jenks
December 10th, 2007, 04:11 AM
We come in peace, shoot to kill (I know he refused the job), All-eating grumpy man (most qualified except for We come in peace, shoot to kill and has expressed willingness to accept the job) and a ton of people TPTBs never mentioned. Even Scruffy genius is more qualified for this job that Overgrown sissy-toy



I have no idea what any of that means.

Pajus
December 10th, 2007, 04:14 AM
I have no idea what any of that means.

We come in peace, shoot to kill = Sheppard
All-eating grumpy man = McKay
Ass-kicking wallpaper = Teyla
Max Payne = Ronon
Fearless leader = Elizabeth
Overgrown sissy-toy = Carter
Whining baby = Keller
Scruffy genius = Zelenka

It's how TPTBs write them

jenks
December 10th, 2007, 04:26 AM
We come in peace, shoot to kill = Sheppard
All-eating grumpy man = McKay
Ass-kicking wallpaper = Teyla
Max Payne = Ronon
Fearless leader = Elizabeth
Overgrown sissy-toy = Carter
Whining baby = Keller
Scruffy genius = Zelenka

It's how TPTBs write them

In your eyes :rolleyes:. Neither McKay or Sheppard are more qualified than Carter, if anything, she's overqualified, which was my main concern with her coming over. McKay has no experience with leadership, and Carter trumps Sheppard on rank and her science background. The idea of having Zelenka in charge is just laughable. The only realistic Atlantis character for the job would be Caldwell in my opinion, or maybe Ellis, but none of the actual Atlantis team that's for sure.

Pajus
December 10th, 2007, 05:22 AM
In your eyes :rolleyes:. Neither McKay or Sheppard are more qualified than Carter, if anything, she's overqualified, which was my main concern with her coming over. McKay has no experience with leadership, and Carter trumps Sheppard on rank and her science background. The idea of having Zelenka in charge is just laughable. The only realistic Atlantis character for the job would be Caldwell in my opinion, or maybe Ellis, but none of the actual Atlantis team that's for sure.

Let me repeat myself: How can someone with NO FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with the Wraith or their technology lead the Atlantis expedition? The only time Overgrown sissy-toy has seen a Wraith before she went to lead Atlantis was in a mission report. And her experience with Ancient technology is limited to what the Ancients have left in the Milky way. She might know something about the Puddle jumpers, but she knows NOTHING about Atlantis, or the Ancient Aurora-class ships. She knows absolutely NOTHING about the Wraith, or their capabilities, methods and technology. I'm not saying she wouldn't be a valuable asset to the science team in Atlantis, but have her in charge of the entire expedition is absolute nonsense

jenks
December 10th, 2007, 05:36 AM
Let me repeat myself: How can someone with NO FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with the Wraith or their technology lead the Atlantis expedition?

Quite easily, especially when you consider what she's replacing, an anti war diplomat with no military or scientific background. Shep has experience with the Wraith, but what does it actually count for? Not much in the grand scheme of things, he has no advantage over Carter that she can't easily learn, whereas he's not going to be promoted or get a PhD any time soon. Why would anyone want Shep as the leader anyway? Who would replace him to lead his team?

Pajus
December 10th, 2007, 05:42 AM
Quite easily, especially when you consider what she's replacing, an anti war diplomat with no military or scientific background. Shep has experience with the Wraith, but what does it actually count for? Not much in the grand scheme of things, he has no advantage over Carter that she can't easily learn, whereas he's not going to be promoted or get a PhD any time soon. Why would anyone want Shep as the leader anyway? Who would replace him to lead his team?

I think all answers to these questions can be found in SG-1 season 7 finale and Season 8 beginning. That was the very same situation

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 06:32 AM
Let me repeat myself: How can someone with NO FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with the Wraith or their technology lead the Atlantis expedition?

just out of curiosity, who would you have liked as the new leader? and don't say Weir, she's not an option since we lost her in Lifeline. if it wasn't Carter it would've been someone totally new to the PG and maybe the SG program. also even Weir didn't have that much first hand experience with the Wraith (sure some but she wasn't really involved in combat situations)

you know this reminds me of s9 and how Mitchell took command of SG-1. did he have any experience? no. how can someone even begin to get some experience if he/she isn't allowed to do something new. how are you supposed to prove yourself if you're not allowed to take a step into the unknown? and as jenks has said, it's easier for Carter to learn about the Wraith than for Shep to get a PhD ;)

Pajus
December 10th, 2007, 06:40 AM
just out of curiosity, who would you have liked as the new leader? and don't say Weir, she's not an option since we lost her in Lifeline. if it wasn't Carter it would've been someone totally new to the PG and maybe the SG program. also even Weir didn't have that much first hand experience with the Wraith (sure some but she wasn't really involved in combat situations)

you know this reminds me of s9 and how Mitchell took command of SG-1. did he have any experience? no. how can someone even begin to get some experience if he/she isn't allowed to do something new. how are you supposed to prove yourself if you're not allowed to take a step into the unknown? and as jenks has said, it's easier for Carter to learn about the Wraith than for Shep to get a PhD ;)

With We come in peace, shoot to kill refusing the offer (and the IOA asked him), All-eating grumpy man is the most logical choice. He has run the Atlantis science department since Day one, his membership in Sheppard's team gives him first hand experience with both the Wraith and the Asurans and he has an unmatchable amount of knowledge about Ancient, Asuran and Wraith technology.

In case you haven't noticed, I've said Overgrown sissy-toy would be a valuable asset to the science team in Atlantis, but not a good expedition leader (for said reasons)

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 06:42 AM
With We come in peace, shoot to kill refusing the offer (and the IOA asked him), All-eating grumpy man is the most logical choice. He has run the Atlantis science department since Day one, his membership in Sheppard's team gives him first hand experience with both the Wraith and the Asurans and he has an unmatchable amount of knowledge about Ancient, Asuran and Wraith technology.

you're talking about Rodney right?

jenks
December 10th, 2007, 06:52 AM
With We come in peace, shoot to kill refusing the offer (and the IOA asked him), All-eating grumpy man is the most logical choice. He has run the Atlantis science department since Day one, his membership in Sheppard's team gives him first hand experience with both the Wraith and the Asurans and he has an unmatchable amount of knowledge about Ancient, Asuran and Wraith technology.

In case you haven't noticed, I've said Overgrown sissy-toy would be a valuable asset to the science team in Atlantis, but not a good expedition leader (for said reasons)

Those nick names are really juvenile and becoming tiring, I'm seriously starting to get embarrassed for you...

Pajus
December 10th, 2007, 06:54 AM
you're talking about Rodney right?

Yep


Those nick names are really juvenile and becoming tiring, I'm seriously starting to get embarrassed for you...

They make it easier for everyone to remember them. Look at one episode that contains them all and you'll know who is who

g.o.d
December 10th, 2007, 06:55 AM
Those nick names are really juvenile and becoming tiring, I'm seriously starting to get embarrassed for you...

I think they're great

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 07:24 AM
Those nick names are really juvenile and becoming tiring, I'm seriously starting to get embarrassed for you...

yup


Yep

ok so why would you choose Rodney? sure he knows all the Ancient scientific stuff but that's it. he has no idea about the military aspect of the expedition, he doesn't know how to run a base like Atlantis and frankly is too self centred to run a military outpost in another galaxy. he's perfect for the job as lead scientist, let him to what he's best at


They make it easier for everyone to remember them. Look at one episode that contains them all and you'll know who is who

um no


I think they're great

I don't ;)

kirmit
December 10th, 2007, 07:25 AM
please reference the episodes and dialouge where daniel expresses his desire to lead atlantis.

:rolleyes: My post meant Daniel hasn't shown any desire to lead Atlantis the same as Sam hasn't shown any desire.


^So her 10 years on SG1 meant nothing? The years in which she had to deal with "battle tactics" and "alien relations" had no effect?

It's different being part of a team doing those things and being the sole person incharge of all those things. Sam hasn't been shown in SG-1 to be a great negotiator, something she'll have to do in Atlantis, Battle tactics, she'll be the person with the final say, not just someone contributing.

Freekzilla
December 10th, 2007, 07:48 AM
Well, considering that Weir was dumped in favor of the "Golden Child", and that AT's salary is probably much larger than Tori's, I would have thought they would have had Carter in much more. Frankly, Carter has had almost no impact or presence in the first half of the season. There's no reason she couldn't have been around more, whether needed or not. Weir was around a lot of times even if she wasn't needed. This just shows that they don't really know how to make her fit in. Considering all the hype certain people made about her coming over, I would have thought that things would have gone MUCH better. But TPTB have failed miserably. Not that I really want Miss Goody-Two-Shoes around, cause I don't, but if she's a character on the show then put her to work gosh darn it. This season has been a big disappointment. :mckay:

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 07:59 AM
Well, considering that Weir was dumped in favor of the "Golden Child", and that AT's salary is probably much larger than Tori's, I would have thought they would have had Carter in much more.

um no you're wrong, TH wasn't dumped because of AT. TBTB decided her character wouldn't work anymore and after this decision they asked AT if she'd like to join Atlantis


Frankly, Carter has had almost no impact or presence in the first half of the season. There's no reason she couldn't have been around more, whether needed or not.

form JM's blog
If we had wanted to see Carter in this episode, this would have been the place - insert a scene in which Sheppard fills her in and she makes the call. However, she would only have appeared in this one scene since she wouldn’t have headed off-world and, in the end, the scene would have amounted to little more than a replay of the information we’d just received. Finally, with Amanda contracted for 14 episodes, we needed to be judicious about which ones we put her in and putting her in this episode for what would really amount to a meaningless scene felt unnecessary.


Weir was around a lot of times even if she wasn't needed.

yeah well that's true. and while Weir fans certainly enjoyed seeing their favorite even if she wasn't needed, other people thought her presence wasn't necessary. this is exactly what TBTB are doing with Carter this season, we'll see her in eps where she can actually shine and do stuff instead of being in some eps for just one scene which isn't necessary (see JM's blog, he confirms this)


This just shows that they don't really know how to make her fit in.

that's your opinion


Considering all the hype certain people made about her coming over, I would have thought that things would have gone MUCH better. But TPTB have failed miserably.

again your opinion


Not that I really want Miss Goody-Two-Shoes around, cause I don't, but if she's a character on the show then put her to work gosh darn it. This season has been a big disappointment. :mckay:

I'm sry you feel that way but I'm sure we'll see more of Sam in the second half ;)

Pajus
December 10th, 2007, 08:15 AM
ok so why would you choose Rodney? sure he knows all the Ancient scientific stuff but that's it. he has no idea about the military aspect of the expedition, he doesn't know how to run a base like Atlantis and frankly is too self centred to run a military outpost in another galaxy. he's perfect for the job as lead scientist, let him to what he's best at



Hello! 3 years worth of off-world experience in Sheppard's team

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 08:24 AM
Hello! 3 years worth of off-world experience in Sheppard's team

so? Daniel's been with SG-1 for 9 years and I bet he's still a lousy shooter and doesn't know much about military regulations etc. Carter's been off world for 10 years and has encountered far more creatures and stuff than Rodney. besides the IOA wanted one person as leader and not two. with Rodney (a civilian) leading the expedition Shep would still be in charge of the military, the IOA wanted someone who could do both -> Sam Carter

Pajus
December 10th, 2007, 09:17 AM
so? Daniel's been with SG-1 for 9 years and I bet he's still a lousy shooter and doesn't know much about military regulations etc. Carter's been off world for 10 years and has encountered far more creatures and stuff than Rodney. besides the IOA wanted one person as leader and not two. with Rodney (a civilian) leading the expedition Shep would still be in charge of the military, the IOA wanted someone who could do both -> Sam Carter

a. My (first hand) experience says that when you get to shoot as much as Daniel or All-eating grumpy man, you'll learn it pretty quickly.

b. Yes, she has encountered a lot of things over the years, but NONE of them was called "Wraith". And that clearly disqualifies her when you have people that met these things already.

c. We come in peace, shoot to kill and All-eating grumpy man are married to a level that makes them think and act like one being

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 09:36 AM
a. My (first hand) experience says that when you get to shoot as much as Daniel or All-eating grumpy man, you'll learn it pretty quickly.

I honestly don't know about this. if you have first hand experience you're probably right


b. Yes, she has encountered a lot of things over the years, but NONE of them was called "Wraith". And that clearly disqualifies her when you have people that met these things already.

which brings me back to one of my previous posts. how can new people learn about stuff they don't know if you don't let them? yes Sam has no first hand experience in dealing with the Wraith (before 'Reunion' and 'The Seer'). the same can be said about Rodney dealing with the military, the IOA, being leader of an entire base etc. the problem is you can never find someone with the exact talents and past experences you're looking for. you have to introduce new people and trust in their skills. as such Sam is perfectly qualified


c. We come in peace, shoot to kill and All-eating grumpy man are married to a level that makes them think and act like one being

um...what?

Pajus
December 10th, 2007, 09:51 AM
which brings me back to one of my previous posts. how can new people learn about stuff they don't know if you don't let them? yes Sam has no first hand experience in dealing with the Wraith (before 'Reunion' and 'The Seer'). the same can be said about Rodney dealing with the military, the IOA, being leader of an entire base etc. the problem is you can never find someone with the exact talents and past experences you're looking for. you have to introduce new people and trust in their skills. as such Sam is perfectly qualified


Give her her own team, let her go on a few off-world missions, ease her into it and THEN assign her as the new leader. That way she was like the proverbial non-swimmer thrown into the ocean

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 09:58 AM
Give her her own team, let her go on a few off-world missions, ease her into it and THEN assign her as the new leader.

this may be an option. however considering Carter's rank, her contribution to the SG program and the experience of the last decade it would be rather rude to give her command of a team (which wouldn't be the flagship team since those are Shep's guys and Teyla). she could be in command of a team back at the SGC anyway. also she has the same rank as Shep and as such it would be really weird taking orders from him (which she would only do because he'd hold the position as military leader of the base). there would be no clear chain of command


That way she was like the proverbial non-swimmer thrown into the ocean

oh you mean like Jack and his team in the movie, like Carter in CotG, like all the other SG teams in s1 and so on, like Mitchell in s9...

Pajus
December 10th, 2007, 10:09 AM
this may be an option. however considering Carter's rank, her contribution to the SG program and the experience of the last decade it would be rather rude to give her command of a team (which wouldn't be the flagship team since those are Shep's guys and Teyla). she could be in command of a team back at the SGC anyway. also she has the same rank as Shep and as such it would be really weird taking orders from him (which she would only do because he'd hold the position as military leader of the base). there would be no clear chain of command



oh you mean like Jack and his team in the movie, like Carter in CotG, like all the other SG teams in s1 and so on, like Mitchell in s9...

SG-1, the Movie and S1 happened like that only because Earth had no people with experience. That is clearly different in SGA S4. I'm not talking about SG-1 S9, cause that's for another thread, but personally I believe it was quite the incredible move as well. I'd give Overgrown sissy-toy an 'observer' status for the first six months with Shep's team and THEN let her move on. That way she'd have the necessary experience with both the Wraith and the Asurans that would give her the ability to make qualified decisions. When the leader learns such basics 'on the run', things usually go really bad really soon

prion
December 10th, 2007, 10:20 AM
For the "why is she is charge?" crowd:
If I were on the IOA, given the events of The Return, I would be concerned about promoting to leader someone that has been on the expedition since day one. In my mind, as an IOA member, Carter will not be as likely to consider Atlantis home and as such will be more dispassionate and objective when making decisions, which, given the IOA's track record, I am probably going to consider a positive attribute.

I'm not seeking to say I like Carter or Weir better: I can just see the logic of putting someone like Carter in charge.

Of all the people on SG1 and SGA (the teams), carter is the one that 'toes the line' and obeys the regulations more than anyone, so she makes a good leader in that the IOA can put their foot down and she'll agree, even if she doesn't agree.

jelgate
December 10th, 2007, 10:22 AM
Of all the people on SG1 and SGA (the teams), carter is the one that 'toes the line' and obeys the regulations more than anyone, so she makes a good leader in that the IOA can put their foot down and she'll agree, even if she doesn't agree.Apparently you haven't seen The Seer:S

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 10:30 AM
SG-1, the Movie and S1 happened like that only because Earth had no people with experience. That is clearly different in SGA S4. I'm not talking about SG-1 S9, cause that's for another thread,

ok


but personally I believe it was quite the incredible move as well.

glad we agree :)


I'd give Overgrown sissy-toy an 'observer' status for the first six months with Shep's team and THEN let her move on. That way she'd have the necessary experience with both the Wraith and the Asurans that would give her the ability to make qualified decisions. When the leader learns such basics 'on the run', things usually go really bad really soon

I would have to agree with you, it would've been better to let Sam observe for some time to get to know the op and the people involved. however there was no time. Weir was assumed dead, Atlantis barely made it to another planet and the IOA needed a strong leader (someone with both military and scientific experience and who could handle the politics involved -> IOA). I'll just assume that the Ori threat has been eliminated for now and the missions of the several SG teams aren't that 'exciting' anymore. why wouldn't you wanna involve someone who has defeated two of Earth's enemies? this person has to have some talent to be a part of this and still be alive wouldn't you say?

again it was a crisis situation and the IOA had to react quickly. apparently they believed there was no time to let some new leader become accustomed to Atlantis and its inhabitants. they had to make a decision and Sam was chosen because of her record. of course she's new and has to catch up and learn (which she even admits in 'Reunion' IIRC) but everybody who'd have been given command of Atlantis would've had to do this in some way (whether he/she has no experience in military ops, lacks the scientific knowledge, has never been in charge of that many people etc)


Apparently you haven't seen The Seer:S

why? because she refused to listen to Woolsey? he's not the IOA, just an observer

chocdoc
December 10th, 2007, 10:47 AM
Of all the people on SG1 and SGA (the teams), carter is the one that 'toes the line' and obeys the regulations more than anyone, so she makes a good leader in that the IOA can put their foot down and she'll agree, even if she doesn't agree.


And you say this because??? When has the IOA put their foot down and she agreed even when she didn't agree? Maybe there are instances of this that I'm just not recalling.

Pajus
December 10th, 2007, 11:12 AM
I would have to agree with you, it would've been better to let Sam observe for some time to get to know the op and the people involved. however there was no time. Weir was assumed dead, Atlantis barely made it to another planet and the IOA needed a strong leader (someone with both military and scientific experience and who could handle the politics involved -> IOA). I'll just assume that the Ori threat has been eliminated for now and the missions of the several SG teams aren't that 'exciting' anymore. why wouldn't you wanna involve someone who has defeated two of Earth's enemies? this person has to have some talent to be a part of this and still be alive wouldn't you say?

again it was a crisis situation and the IOA had to react quickly. apparently they believed there was no time to let some new leader become accustomed to Atlantis and its inhabitants. they had to make a decision and Sam was chosen because of her record. of course she's new and has to catch up and learn (which she even admits in 'Reunion' IIRC) but everybody who'd have been given command of Atlantis would've had to do this in some way (whether he/she has no experience in military ops, lacks the scientific knowledge, has never been in charge of that many people etc)


Let's presume you are a member of the IOA. You know exactly how much money and resources went out of the window to establish and supply Atlantis. I want you to ask yourself a question:

Am I going to give this all into the hands of someone with a distinguished record, knowing that this someone has no knowledge about one of the major adversaries there and very little knowledge about the other? Or am I going to give it into the hands of someone, who doesn't have such a distinguished record, but has been there since Day one and has an unmatchable knowledge about the situation and adversaries he will have to face in the times to come?

Personally I'd choose the second alternative

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 11:22 AM
Let's presume you are a member of the IOA. You know exactly how much money and resources went out of the window to establish and supply Atlantis. I want you to ask yourself a question:

Am I going to give this all into the hands of someone with a distinguished record, knowing that this someone has no knowledge about one of the major adversaries there and very little knowledge about the other? Or am I going to give it into the hands of someone, who doesn't have such a distinguished record, but has been there since Day one and has an unmatchable knowledge about the situation and adversaries he will have to face in the times to come?

Personally I'd choose the second alternative

it's an interesting question, however you're forgetting something. Carter may be in charge but she's still relying on the advice of Shep, Rodney, Teyla etc. she's not there to save the day or to come with some scientific miracle, that's still Rodney's assignment. she will refer to Shep for military advice (like she did in 'The Seer') and try to learn from these people. she's basically just the administrator. of course in the end it's her decision but she still has all the 'experts' (I mean the people who've been in the PG from the start) under her command. it's the same situation as it was with Weir, except that Sam also has a military and scientific background which means she can assess a potential danger a lot faster than Weir ever could

sanctuary4all
December 10th, 2007, 11:35 AM
Well, considering that Weir was dumped in favor of the "Golden Child"...
Not that I really want Miss Goody-Two-Shoes around, cause I don't...
This season has been a big disappointment. :mckay:

Ya know--
I assume that most people (And in some cases that term should be used loosely) here are Stargate fans. Is that too much of an assumption to make?
Well, might I remind you Amanda Tapping/Sam Carter haters that she is part of the reason that you even have a SGA to whine & bi*&^ and moan about!
Had SG1 not been sooooo successful, there would be NO SGA!
Whether you like it or not, Sam was an integral part of SG1 and as such helped SGA to even be created. So, ya outta be getting down on your knees and thanking her in gratitude!!

Now, I am going to go back to reading & lurking :p

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 11:40 AM
Ya know--
I assume that most people (And in some cases that term should be used loosely) here are Stargate fans. Is that too much of an assumption to make?
Well, might I remind you Amanda Tapping/Sam Carter haters that she is part of the reason that you even have a SGA to whine & bi*&^ and moan about!
Had SG1 not been sooooo successful, there would be NO SGA!
Whether you like it or not, Sam was an integral part of SG1 and as such helped SGA to even be created. So, ya outta be getting down on your knees and kissing her boots in gratitude!!

Now, I am going to go back to reading & lurking and kissing Sammies boots :p

you're right of course, without SG-1 there would be no SGA. however I really doubt these people will care about this, they will just argue that she may have contributed to the success of the franchise but this doesn't mean she has to become a regular on Atlantis. but also keep in mind not everybody who doesn't like Carter in Atlantis hates her! people are just trying to enjoy the show :)

PG15
December 10th, 2007, 11:44 AM
They make it easier for everyone to remember them. Look at one episode that contains them all and you'll know who is who

I'd think their names would suffice, thank you very much. I agree with jenks, they're purile at best, insulting and demeaning at worst. Why must you insult and demean?

By putting Rodney in charge of the city, you'll spread him out too thin; why waste his obvious scientific talents on leadership, especially when he has horrible personal relations? Knowledge =/= leadership. The way McKay leads is basically by insulting everyone and doing everything himself. Yeah, that's a good leader alright.

As for knowledge of the Wraith; you honestly think Sam just came to Atlantis without any form of education of what a Wraith is? That's stupid. Of course she familiarized herself with the Wraith. She's also not a dictator and often defer to Sheppard and McKay for backup knowledge about the Wraith and other stuff, as a good leader should.

And really, what experience with the Wraith does she really need? Don't trust them? Don't stand within arms length? Shoot to kill? The Wraith aren't very complex, you know.

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 11:53 AM
thank you PG15 that's exactly what I'm trying to say :)

Agent_Dark
December 10th, 2007, 12:53 PM
:rolleyes: My post meant Daniel hasn't shown any desire to lead Atlantis the same as Sam hasn't shown any desire.

the difference being Carter is a military officer who's training and careers tend to lead to exactly this kind of thing anyway.

Agent_Dark
December 10th, 2007, 12:57 PM
Let's presume you are a member of the IOA. You know exactly how much money and resources went out of the window to establish and supply Atlantis. I want you to ask yourself a question:

Am I going to give this all into the hands of someone with a distinguished record, knowing that this someone has no knowledge about one of the major adversaries there and very little knowledge about the other? Or am I going to give it into the hands of someone, who doesn't have such a distinguished record, but has been there since Day one and has an unmatchable knowledge about the situation and adversaries he will have to face in the times to come?

Personally I'd choose the second alternative

you know, i thought you said you were in the miltary once? how many times do you see people from within the ranks get promoted to the top of that unit? It'll happen with nco's in small units, but certainly not once you get to large units that require senior officers. Reason being, is that someone promoted from within the ranks has all the biases and prejudices towards people and places that they've gathered from being in that unit. Thats why you promote someone out of the unit, into it.

And it doesn't matter if you're fighting wriath or goa'uld or ori. German Military commanders in WW2 went from fighting Russians to English to American forces. Allied commanders went from fighting in North Africa to Italy to Normandy. The specifics might change, but its still the same thing.

Freekzilla
December 10th, 2007, 02:50 PM
um no you're wrong, TH wasn't dumped because of AT. TBTB decided her character wouldn't work anymore and after this decision they asked AT if she'd like to join Atlantis

I don't think it was all so neat and straight foreward as they have lead us to believe. TPTB know things long before the actors do. They probably had a meeting where they decided that Weir wasn't working as a character and then discussed what they could do, replace her or leave the spot open. By this time, they knew SG-1 wasn't coming back. So they decided to replace Weir and probably tossed out ideas as to who could be brought in. The way TPTB tell the story makes it sound as if the decision to fire TH and the decision to ask someone to join SGA to replace her was two seperate incidents. That would be like firing a CEO of a company and then waiting a month before meeting again to decide whether to replace them or not. I'm sorry but that's not how it works. If you know someone is going to be fired, the FIRST questions that are asked is, are we going to replace them and with who. And yes, it wasn't "because of" AT, as it wasn't like AT was asking to be on SGA. And it wasn't TH's fault her character wasn't working, it was TPTB's fault. But the thing is, they, TPTB, most likely knew well before TH was told she was out that they were going to ask AT if she wanted the job or not.

And we know how TPTB feel about the golden child. They just love writing for her. They've pretty much said as much too. Not to mention that the idea that in bringing AT over to SGA might bring some SG-1 fans as well, I'm sure that aspect didn't escape them and it was just one motivating factor in deciding to offer the job to AT. The fact that the Weir character wasn't working and instead of working harder to make it work, they "favored" the idea of just replacing her with someone who would be easier to write for. And that is TPTB's failure, not TH or AT's.



form JM's blog I found it to be rather boring, so I stopped reading. The stuff in it about SG tends to be hyped up as the "second coming" all the time. Too much of "this script is fabulous and brilliant" and "you're really gonna enjoy this". It's a blog, not an advertising campaign. That and, all the food. Dude, that guy really EATS! I nearly had a heart attack just looking at the pictures of food!


yeah well that's true. and while Weir fans certainly enjoyed seeing their favorite even if she wasn't needed, other people thought her presence wasn't necessary. this is exactly what TBTB are doing with Carter this season, we'll see her in eps where she can actually shine and do stuff instead of being in some eps for just one scene which isn't necessary (see JM's blog, he confirms this) yeah but, and this is where I personally have a problem with it, it's not always about just one person. One person is not always going to find the problem, diagnose the problem, find the perfect solution and then implement it. It's a collabrative effort. Other people can put in their two cents worth that could actually make the solution better. IE: McKay could translate some Replicator text perfectly, but Carter being familiar with Replicator code from before, could understand the context of what it meant. Had McKay acted upon what he thought was right, it could have been disaterous, but because someone else spent one scene "proof reading" the translation and understanding what it meant, they avoid that disaster. It may not have been a "shining" moment, but it would have been an important thing to see. Doing it that way rather than just skipping the error being caught illustrates how hard the job is, that the characters are not infallible, and that they depend on eachother. It helps build a richer and deeper environment to the story. So, IMO, some of those little so called "unnecessary" scenes are actually important.


that's your opinion

again your opinionyes my opinion. But apparently also a lot of other peoples' opinion as well considering the dismal ratings, and all of the posts I've seen that have said, "why can't TPTB write something good for so and so".


I'm sry you feel that way but I'm sure we'll see more of Sam in the second half ;)
If she's just going to be there as window dressing shuffling papers and not getting her hands dirty, then she's not needed there at all, ever. And no, I don't like Carter at all anymore. But I did once, a long time ago, back when she was inquisitive, timid, stressed....human. She's not like that anymore, hasn't been since season 7/8. Again, not AT's fault. I place ALL the blame where it belongs, on TPTB.

kirmit
December 10th, 2007, 02:59 PM
yes my opinion. But apparently also a lot of other peoples' opinion as well considering the dismal ratings, and all of the posts I've seen that have said, "why can't TPTB write something good for so and so".

Sorry but it sounds asif you're trying to blame the ratings drop solely on Sam here, which tbh is just ridiculous, infact really what has Sam done in this season that would put people off the show?

chocdoc
December 10th, 2007, 03:16 PM
yes my opinion. But apparently also a lot of other peoples' opinion as well considering the dismal ratings, and all of the posts I've seen that have said, "why can't TPTB write something good for so and so".




Actually it turns out that the ratings are not dismal at all. In fact season 4 premiere got more viewers than the premiere of season three, when looking at Live +7day for both premieres. And Missing and The Seer were just under this with 1.9 million viewers. But this is for the ratings thread. No wonder Scifi renewed the show for a fifth season.

SGFerrit
December 10th, 2007, 03:39 PM
Plus the show was renewed BEFORE Missing and The Seer. Hopefully the rise in ratings continues.

I really don't think the show has lost many viewers at all compared to the back half of season 3.

IMO, Carter hasn't had any effect on ratings. Or not much anyway. I think the reason that viewers have remained with the show (or the reason the ratings are going back up anyway) was down to good writing and improved stories.

chocdoc
December 10th, 2007, 03:43 PM
Plus the show was renewed BEFORE Missing and The Seer. Hopefully the rise in ratings continues.

I really don't think the show has lost many viewers at all compared to the back half of season 3.



Yes -- in fact, I'm not sure it has lost any viewers (in viewer numbers) compared to the back half of season 3. That seems remarkable to me, given that over the first three seasons there has been a continual drop in viewership.

TheJediSpectre
December 10th, 2007, 04:03 PM
Well she sneaks around the world from Earth to Atlantis,
She's a Scientist & Soldier from the Milky Way & Pegasus,
She'll take you for a ride on a slow boat to Atlantis,
Tell me where in the world is Samanatha Carter ?

Steal their Seoul in Pegasus, make the fans cry Uncle,
From the Milky Way to Pegasus they'll be singing the blues,
Well they ever let her steal the spot light from McKay,
Tell me where in the world is Samantha Carter ?

She goes from Stargate Command to Abydos, Pegasus to Atlantis,
Chulak to Halla and back!

Well she'll ransack Atlantis and run a scam in Chulak,
Then she'll stick 'em up Down Under and go pick-pocket Apophis,
She put the Miss in misdemeanor when she stole the beans from Anubis,
Tell me where in the world is Samantha Carter?
Oh tell me where in the world is... Oh tell me where can she be?

Ooh, Camelot to the Ori home planet, Ellis via the Apollo,
Abydos to Chulak to , Pegasus & Atlantis...!

Well she glides around the globe and she'll save every galaxy,
She's a double-dealing diva with a taste for science,
Her itinerary's loaded up with moving violations,
Tell me where in the world is Samantha Carter ?

Freekzilla
December 10th, 2007, 04:07 PM
Sorry but it sounds asif you're trying to blame the ratings drop solely on Sam here, which tbh is just ridiculous, infact really what has Sam done in this season that would put people off the show?

Not at all, Sam isn't the problem, the writers/producers are. AT (or TH) can only do what THEY give her.


Actually it turns out that the ratings are not dismal at all. In fact season 4 premiere got more viewers than the premiere of season three, when looking at Live +7day for both premieres. And Missing and The Seer were just under this with 1.9 million viewers. But this is for the ratings thread. No wonder Scifi renewed the show for a fifth season.

Ok, are you trying to spin the numbers or something? Both Missing and The Seer got a 1.1 rating (Live +Same Day). The pattern for the Live +7 day viewing has been averaging +.2 points. That would give both of those episodes a 1.3 each. And that is NOT good. And you are wrong about season 4 getting more viewers than the season 3 premeire. I've been keeping a record of the ratings for SGA and BSG. The Live+7 for the season 4 premiere got a 1.41, but the Live+Same day for the season 3 premeire got a 1.5, and that's NOT including the Live+7day. So you are COMPLETELY WRONG!

SGFerrit
December 10th, 2007, 04:15 PM
Ok, are you trying to spin the numbers or something? Both Missing and The Seer got a 1.1 rating (Live +Same Day). The pattern for the Live +7 day viewing has been averaging +.2 points. That would give both of those episodes a 1.3 each. And that is NOT good. And you are wrong about season 4 getting more viewers than the season 3 premeire. I've been keeping a record of the ratings for SGA and BSG. The Live+7 for the season 4 premiere got a 1.41, but the Live+Same day for the season 3 premeire got a 1.5, and that's NOT including the Live+7day. So you are COMPLETELY WRONG!

Nope, the actual viwere numbers have been provided for the season premiers. s3 got less than 2 million, s4 got more.

The rating points are worth more this year.

Just ask MediSavant, who has the actual numbers. I'm sure someone could provide the full list of eps we have so far to compare...

Missing's final viewer rating was a 1.4, The Seers was only a few .01s behind but it got a 1.3. Remember, this time last year you probably would have added a .1 to that.

BTW, you sound like you are getting a little annoyed, you may want to calm down a bit: 'Shouting' "YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG!" is just making you look silly, especially considering you are the one that is actually wrong. Just some friendly advice:)

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 04:52 PM
I don't think it was all so neat and straight foreward as they have lead us to believe. TPTB know things long before the actors do. They probably had a meeting where they decided that Weir wasn't working as a character and then discussed what they could do, replace her or leave the spot open. By this time, they knew SG-1 wasn't coming back. So they decided to replace Weir and probably tossed out ideas as to who could be brought in. The way TPTB tell the story makes it sound as if the decision to fire TH and the decision to ask someone to join SGA to replace her was two seperate incidents. That would be like firing a CEO of a company and then waiting a month before meeting again to decide whether to replace them or not. I'm sorry but that's not how it works. If you know someone is going to be fired, the FIRST questions that are asked is, are we going to replace them and with who. And yes, it wasn't "because of" AT, as it wasn't like AT was asking to be on SGA. And it wasn't TH's fault her character wasn't working, it was TPTB's fault. But the thing is, they, TPTB, most likely knew well before TH was told she was out that they were going to ask AT if she wanted the job or not.

And we know how TPTB feel about the golden child. They just love writing for her. They've pretty much said as much too. Not to mention that the idea that in bringing AT over to SGA might bring some SG-1 fans as well, I'm sure that aspect didn't escape them and it was just one motivating factor in deciding to offer the job to AT. The fact that the Weir character wasn't working and instead of working harder to make it work, they "favored" the idea of just replacing her with someone who would be easier to write for. And that is TPTB's failure, not TH or AT's.

you can believe whatever you want, in the end it doesn't change the fact that TH's out and AT's in. we'll never know why/when/how etc, that's just our opinion. if you want to believe that this was the plan all along then go ahead, I however tend to believe otherwise


I found it to be rather boring, so I stopped reading. The stuff in it about SG tends to be hyped up as the "second coming" all the time. Too much of "this script is fabulous and brilliant" and "you're really gonna enjoy this". It's a blog, not an advertising campaign. That and, all the food. Dude, that guy really EATS! I nearly had a heart attack just looking at the pictures of food!

if you don't want to read it then don't. I just posted it to show the people who are reading this thread and don't know about Joes's blog that he infact commented on the decision to leave AT out of this ep


yeah but, and this is where I personally have a problem with it, it's not always about just one person. One person is not always going to find the problem, diagnose the problem, find the perfect solution and then implement it. It's a collabrative effort. Other people can put in their two cents worth that could actually make the solution better. IE: McKay could translate some Replicator text perfectly, but Carter being familiar with Replicator code from before, could understand the context of what it meant. Had McKay acted upon what he thought was right, it could have been disaterous, but because someone else spent one scene "proof reading" the translation and understanding what it meant, they avoid that disaster. It may not have been a "shining" moment, but it would have been an important thing to see. Doing it that way rather than just skipping the error being caught illustrates how hard the job is, that the characters are not infallible, and that they depend on eachother. It helps build a richer and deeper environment to the story. So, IMO, some of those little so called "unnecessary" scenes are actually important.

I'm sry if I mislead you, I was actually talking about scenes ie the team is about to go through the gate, Shep turns around a Weir says 'good luck' OR it's the end of an ep and the team returns from a mission, the last scene is Weir standing in front of the gate saying 'welcome home'. these scenes aren't important and while I do believe it to be necessary to show this a few times to shape characters and just let the team interact with eachother (even like this), I can also live without them. we all know what happens after the team returns, there's no need to show it every time


yes my opinion. But apparently also a lot of other peoples' opinion as well considering the dismal ratings, and all of the posts I've seen that have said, "why can't TPTB write something good for so and so".

yes your opinion indeed :) the ratings actually aren't that bad if you really think about it. did you you know that Missing got a 1.36 for live +7 and The Seer a 1.34 for live +7? considering The Seer was a Carter heavy ep there sure were a lot of people watching ;)


If she's just going to be there as window dressing shuffling papers and not getting her hands dirty, then she's not needed there at all, ever. And no, I don't like Carter at all anymore. But I did once, a long time ago, back when she was inquisitive, timid, stressed....human. She's not like that anymore, hasn't been since season 7/8. Again, not AT's fault. I place ALL the blame where it belongs, on TPTB.

like I said we'll see more of her in the back half and hopefully s5. AT's schedule was a little tight what with filming the 2 movies, SGA and Sanctuary and whatever else she may have done during that time. however I do want to say I'm glad that you don't blame the actress since this really isn't her fault and I'm sure AT tries to make the best of it :)

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 05:02 PM
Sorry but it sounds asif you're trying to blame the ratings drop solely on Sam here, which tbh is just ridiculous, infact really what has Sam done in this season that would put people off the show?

I agree, she can't be solely responsible for a drop in the ratings (whether there is one or not)


Actually it turns out that the ratings are not dismal at all. In fact season 4 premiere got more viewers than the premiere of season three, when looking at Live +7day for both premieres. And Missing and The Seer were just under this with 1.9 million viewers. But this is for the ratings thread. No wonder Scifi renewed the show for a fifth season.

rating commentsthe show is doing fine actually. Missing got a 1.36 for live +7, The Seer a 1.34 for live +7 and like you said they both had just under 1.9 million viewers. this is pretty good considering that the s4 premiere Adrift got a 1.41 after live +7 with a little over 2 million viewers. this means that the show hasn't lost viewership since the season premiere, there are just a hell of a lot more people who are using DVR


Plus the show was renewed BEFORE Missing and The Seer. Hopefully the rise in ratings continues.

I really don't think the show has lost many viewers at all compared to the back half of season 3.

IMO, Carter hasn't had any effect on ratings. Or not much anyway. I think the reason that viewers have remained with the show (or the reason the ratings are going back up anyway) was down to good writing and improved stories.

rating commentsit would be very interesting to compare viewership in the back half of s3 and s4 so far. I think the numbers tell us that the show has only lost about 200,000 viewers compared to the second half of s3 which is acceptable. and since the ratings improved over the last few eps I wouldn't worry that much, SciFi must've had a reason to renew Atlantis!

chocdoc
December 10th, 2007, 05:29 PM
the show is doing fine actually. Missing got a 1.36 for live +7, The Seer a 1.34 for live +7 and like you said they both had just under 1.9 million viewers. this is pretty good considering that the s4 premiere Adrift got a 1.41 after live +7 with a little over 2 million viewers. this means that the show hasn't lost viewership since the season premiere, there are just a hell of a lot more people who are using DVR


it would be very interesting to compare viewership in the back half of s3 and s4 so far. I think the numbers tell us that the show has only lost about 200,000 viewers compared to the second half of s3 which is acceptable. and since the ratings improved over the last few eps I wouldn't worry that much, SciFi must've had a reason to renew Atlantis!


Yes, and it may even be that the show hasn't lost any viewers at all when comparing to the second half of season 3. Seven out of 10 episodes received a 1.1 or 1.2 in the second half of season 3 (Live + Same Day). We would need to compare the Live + 7 day of these episodes with the Live + 7Day season 4 episodes so far to see if there is any loss in viewership. It may be that it is very even, and not showing any loss at all. But we don't have those figures. Clearly, though, people are using DVR more this season.

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 05:29 PM
Not at all, Sam isn't the problem, the writers/producers are. AT (or TH) can only do what THEY give her.



Ok, are you trying to spin the numbers or something? Both Missing and The Seer got a 1.1 rating (Live +Same Day). The pattern for the Live +7 day viewing has been averaging +.2 points. That would give both of those episodes a 1.3 each. And that is NOT good. And you are wrong about season 4 getting more viewers than the season 3 premeire. I've been keeping a record of the ratings for SGA and BSG. The Live+7 for the season 4 premiere got a 1.41, but the Live+Same day for the season 3 premeire got a 1.5, and that's NOT including the Live+7day. So you are COMPLETELY WRONG!


Nope, the actual viwere numbers have been provided for the season premiers. s3 got less than 2 million, s4 got more.

The rating points are worth more this year.

Just ask MediSavant, who has the actual numbers. I'm sure someone could provide the full list of eps we have so far to compare...

Missing's final viewer rating was a 1.4, The Seers was only a few .01s behind but it got a 1.3. Remember, this time last year you probably would have added a .1 to that.

BTW, you sound like you are getting a little annoyed, you may want to calm down a bit: 'Shouting' "YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG!" is just making you look silly, especially considering you are the one that is actually wrong. Just some friendly advice:)

rating commentssry if I annoy anyone but I had to respond again, even if this is totally OT. anyway let's look at the numbers

Adrift - 1.2 live +sd (1.41 live +7); 2,002 million viewers
Lifeline - 1.1 (1.27); 1.689 mil
Reunion - 1.1 (1.25); 1,562 mil
Doppelganger - 0.9 (1.21); 1,635 mil
Travelers - 1.0 (1.28); TBD
Tabula Rasa - 0.9 (1.19); TBD
Missing - 1.1 (1.36); just under 1,9 mil
The Seer - 1.1 (1.34); just under 1.9 mil
Miller's Crossing - TBD
This Mortal Coil - TBD

Season to Date Average - 1.29

now Freekzilla what you need to remember is that the ratings points are worth more this year (SGFerrit is right about that). 'No Man's Land got a 1.5 (compared to Adrift 1.41) but had actually less viewers (under 2 million) than the s4 premiere (over 2 million). if the ratings are down a little bit doesn't actually mean that there are less people watching. it just means the percentage of people watching the show out of everybody that has access to SciFi is lower -> thus the ratings drop.

I'm not really god at explaining this, Brian and MediaSavant are much better at it but I hope this explains a few things

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 05:36 PM
Yes, and it may even be that the show hasn't lost any viewers at all when comparing to the second half of season 3. Seven out of 10 episodes received a 1.1 or 1.2 in the second half of season 3 (Live + Same Day). We would need to compare the Live + 7 day of these episodes with the Live + 7Day season 4 episodes so far to see if there is any loss in viewership. It may be that it is very even, and not showing any loss at all. But we don't have those figures. Clearly, though, people are using DVR more this season.

rating commentswell I haven't got all the numbers right now (I should really ask Brian for those ;)) but IIRC the show has lost about 200,000 viewers compared to s3. this was mentioned a few weeks ago, however since then things might've changed, Missing and the Seer are the best examples! unfortunately you're right, we don't have the live +7 numbers for the back half of s3.

yes clearly more people are using DVR! the best example is 'Travelers' which got a 1.0 for live +sd and ended up at 1.28 for live +7, that's almost 3 points!

Cautious Explorer
December 10th, 2007, 05:39 PM
I agree, she can't be solely responsible for a drop in the ratings (whether there is one or not)

Agreed. AT/Carter probably has very little to do with the ratings at all. At this point she is so insignificant on the show that probably the only ones affected by her presence are the viewers who either love her or hate her.

That said, can we please drop the ratings talk. There are threads for people who want to discuss the ratings ad naseaum.

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 05:44 PM
Agreed. AT/Carter probably has very little to do with the ratings at all. At this point she is so insignificant on the show that probably the only ones affected by her presence are the viewers who either love her or hate her.

agreed


That said, can we please drop the ratings talk. There are threads for people who want to discuss the ratings ad naseaum.

yes of yourse, I already said I'm very sry about my response, I just felt I needed to say something. I hope you can understand this :)

if anyone wants to continue the ratings talk head on over to the ratings thread ;)

Cautious Explorer
December 10th, 2007, 05:52 PM
agreed



yes of yourse, I already said I'm very sry about my response, I just felt I needed to say something. I hope you can understand this :)

if anyone wants to continue the ratings talk head on over to the ratings thread ;)

Nope. I didn't see you're comment. My eyes tend to glaze over when people start rambling about ratings. Was it in your first, second, third or fourth post on the topic?

Jumper_One
December 10th, 2007, 05:56 PM
Nope. I didn't see you're comment. My eyes tend to glaze over when people start rambling about ratings. Was it in your first, second, third or fourth post on the topic?

lol yeah I'm really sry about this, so many posts. it was actually in my third post
sry if I annoy anyone but I had to respond again, even if this is totally OT. anyway let's look at the numbers

Skydiver
December 10th, 2007, 05:57 PM
ENOUGH OF THE RATINGS TALK

We have a thread for folks to crunch numbers and spin them to their hearts content. This thread is about where carter was in This Mortal Coil.

Keep it on topic or keep it to yourself

Amalthea
December 10th, 2007, 06:01 PM
All right... as I noted in the last "Where's Carter?" thread, Carter is now Hammond, or Landry. They were not in every episode, and neither will she. In reality, obviously Tapping has other commitments. I however, did miss her a little in the episode. But it already felt short enough. I feel lately like Atlantis should be an hour and a half. They have so much plot potential but are always forced to cut it down.

Freekzilla
December 10th, 2007, 08:41 PM
Now, I do stand, errr, sit, corrected,...to a point. You are correct that the number of viewers is actually higher for the S4 premiere than for the S3 premiere. BUT, there was also an increase in coverage between that time as well. What difference that is I have no idea, and I doubt many people would know what that number is. So, it's not like comparing apples to oranges, more like oranges to grapefruit (both are citrus). If you were to compare the exact same coverage area for both premieres, I'm sure the S4 premiere would come in at a lower ranking in terms of viewers.

What bothers me is that, even though there was an increase in total viewers, and coverage, the ratings didn't keep pace. Why? The increase in viewers doesn't automatically mean more households watched it, only that more people did. It could have been that the increase in viewers came from households that already would have watched the show, but more people were there with them. But really, how accurate can that number be? And what would be more valuable, 4 households with 5 people in each, or 10 households with 2 people each? I would surmise the smaller household would be for a few reasons: 1.) less distractions by other household members, 2.) smaller households tend to be younger and more likely in the 18-49 range 3.) the person watching the show is more likely to be someone who would be buying products advertised during the show. (You don't see many 10 year olds buying fabric softener, :D) etc etc.

Basically, I'd much rather go with data that can be measured rather then data that has to be estimated.


EDIT: Sorry, too me forever to finish this post, got distracted. Back to the topic.....
Wasn't Carter supposed to be in 14 episodes this season? Was that in total or starring?

majorsal
December 10th, 2007, 09:09 PM
or they went to his cabin and both of them had a good time with the picnic and fishing

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/4750/sjguttermi6.gif



sally :p :D

Uber
December 10th, 2007, 09:20 PM
Of all the people on SG1 and SGA (the teams), carter is the one that 'toes the line' and obeys the regulations more than anyone, so she makes a good leader in that the IOA can put their foot down and she'll agree, even if she doesn't agree.Erm...not really.

Is her first instinct to follow orders? Sure. But we've seen where she's fought it too if she didn't agree with them. As for the IOA...she has little use for the bureaucratic mindset and if she thinks what they're telling her to do will put her people in unnecessary danger, she'd buck it.

Pajus
December 10th, 2007, 10:57 PM
you know, i thought you said you were in the miltary once? how many times do you see people from within the ranks get promoted to the top of that unit? It'll happen with nco's in small units, but certainly not once you get to large units that require senior officers. Reason being, is that someone promoted from within the ranks has all the biases and prejudices towards people and places that they've gathered from being in that unit. Thats why you promote someone out of the unit, into it.

And it doesn't matter if you're fighting wriath or goa'uld or ori. German Military commanders in WW2 went from fighting Russians to English to American forces. Allied commanders went from fighting in North Africa to Italy to Normandy. The specifics might change, but its still the same thing.

Yes and thank you for reminding me about it. I've got to be in the last batch for obligatory military service. I've got (thankfully) only six months of it - not enough time to learn what you're talking about, but more than enough to puke on sight when Shep and Lorne are on screen

And to the second paragraph: They HAD to do this 'cause they had noone with first hand experience with these enemies or environments. That is clearly different in SGA S4. You have plenty of people in Atlantis, who know everything about the situation and adversaries there. Personally I'd prefer people with experience over people with good resumes. Especially in the perillous times to come

Avenger
December 11th, 2007, 12:52 AM
Erm...not really.

Is her first instinct to follow orders? Sure. But we've seen where she's fought it too if she didn't agree with them. As for the IOA...she has little use for the bureaucratic mindset and if she thinks what they're telling her to do will put her people in unnecessary danger, she'd buck it.

It certainly wasn't when she put Woolsey in his place.

SGFerrit
December 11th, 2007, 04:39 AM
Erm...not really.

Is her first instinct to follow orders? Sure. But we've seen where she's fought it too if she didn't agree with them. As for the IOA...she has little use for the bureaucratic mindset and if she thinks what they're telling her to do will put her people in unnecessary danger, she'd buck it.

As was proven in The Seer. She does what SHE thinks is right.

prion
December 11th, 2007, 05:11 AM
Erm...not really.

Is her first instinct to follow orders? Sure. But we've seen where she's fought it too if she didn't agree with them. As for the IOA...she has little use for the bureaucratic mindset and if she thinks what they're telling her to do will put her people in unnecessary danger, she'd buck it.

Yes, if you look back at SG1, she obeys orders. For example, even though in that episode with the aliens terraforming the planet, and they had orders to do nothing, Jack told her to build a bomb and you could see she dind't want to, but she obeyed his orders.

chocdoc
December 11th, 2007, 06:08 AM
Yes, if you look back at SG1, she obeys orders. For example, even though in that episode with the aliens terraforming the planet, and they had orders to do nothing, Jack told her to build a bomb and you could see she dind't want to, but she obeyed his orders.


Jack is not the IOA. You mentioned that she would just follow orders from the IOA even if she disagreed. But I don't see any instance where this is the case. Jack was her CO and they had a working relationship for a long time. It is quite different following an order from the leader of your team versus going along with the IOA when you disagree. (Just to note: Sam has disobeyed Jack in the episode with Orlin. She also disobeyed his orders in Singularity. So we have examples of her going against Jack.) But most importantly, I don't see any evidence that Sam would go along with the IOA when she disgreed with them. I think she would handle the IOA just like she did Woolsey in The Seer.

Cautious Explorer
December 11th, 2007, 06:20 AM
Erm...not really.

Is her first instinct to follow orders? Sure. But we've seen where she's fought it too if she didn't agree with them. As for the IOA...she has little use for the bureaucratic mindset and if she thinks what they're telling her to do will put her people in unnecessary danger, she'd buck it.


Jack is not the IOA. You mentioned that she would just follow orders from the IOA even if she disagreed. But I don't see any instance where this is the case. Jack was her CO and they had a working relationship for a long time. It is quite different following an order from the leader of your team versus going along with the IOA when you disagree. (Just to note: Sam has disobeyed Jack in the episode with Orlin. She also disobeyed his orders in Singularity. So we have examples of her going against Jack.) But most importantly, I don't see any evidence that Sam would go along with the IOA when she disgreed with them. I think she would handle the IOA just like she did Woolsey in The Seer.

So you're saying what? That the IOA didn't appoint her because they perceive her as someone who will follow their orders without question? If she had a reputation for making her own decisions she'd be in the same boat as Sheppard.

Pajus
December 11th, 2007, 07:57 AM
The difference between the IOA and O'Neill is that O'Neill was her superior officer. If she disobeyes the IOA, the worst thing that can happen is that they'll kick her out (and the USAF hires her back). Had she disobeyed O'Neill's orders, she'd be court martialled

Jumper_One
December 11th, 2007, 09:57 AM
The difference between the IOA and O'Neill is that O'Neill was her superior officer. If she disobeyes the IOA, the worst thing that can happen is that they'll kick her out (and the USAF hires her back). Had she disobeyed O'Neill's orders, she'd be court martialled

true but why would she get orders from the IOA? Carter's a member of the USAF. as far as I understand it the IOA decides something, then they go to O'Neill or someone else who can make such decisions and tell them to order Carter to do whatever they want her to do. isn't that correct?

Pajus
December 11th, 2007, 11:03 AM
true but why would she get orders from the IOA? Carter's a member of the USAF. as far as I understand it the IOA decides something, then they go to O'Neill or someone else who can make such decisions and tell them to order Carter to do whatever they want her to do. isn't that correct?

But the IOA still gets to choose who goes and who does not. The Atlantis expedition is under international control and so has to be the leader

Jumper_One
December 11th, 2007, 11:09 AM
But the IOA still gets to choose who goes and who does not. The Atlantis expedition is under international control and so has to be the leader

yes but what I'm saying is that Carter in fact does not have to obey any 'orders' coming from the IOA. she only has to listen to her superiors (military)

Pajus
December 11th, 2007, 11:18 AM
yes but what I'm saying is that Carter in fact does not have to obey any 'orders' coming from the IOA. she only has to listen to her superiors (military)

That's another reason why I have a problem with her being in charge. Atlantis is supposed to be under international control, but she is a member of the USAF and that puts only one government in direct control of the operation

Jumper_One
December 11th, 2007, 11:25 AM
That's another reason why I have a problem with her being in charge. Atlantis is supposed to be under international control, but she is a member of the USAF and that puts only one government in direct control of the operation

I'm sure there are certain rules to make sure the US doesn't abuse its control over Atlantis

prion
December 11th, 2007, 11:37 AM
Jack is not the IOA. You mentioned that she would just follow orders from the IOA even if she disagreed. But I don't see any instance where this is the case. Jack was her CO and they had a working relationship for a long time. It is quite different following an order from the leader of your team versus going along with the IOA when you disagree. (Just to note: Sam has disobeyed Jack in the episode with Orlin. She also disobeyed his orders in Singularity. So we have examples of her going against Jack.) But most importantly, I don't see any evidence that Sam would go along with the IOA when she disgreed with them. I think she would handle the IOA just like she did Woolsey in The Seer.

And had Woolsey added in ALL the detail on his report, Carter would probably be reprimanded or reassigned.

But the question does beg a logical answer. If Carter is a member of the USAF, and they presumably cut her check and she gets a pension, etc., then who does she ultimately report to? The IOA or the USAF? And more importantly, where do her loyalties belong? (and no, saying "Earth" is avoiding the question).

Jumper_One
December 11th, 2007, 11:42 AM
And had Woolsey added in ALL the detail on his report, Carter would probably be reprimanded or reassigned.

But the question does beg a logical answer. If Carter is a member of the USAF, and they presumably cut her check and she gets a pension, etc., then who does she ultimately report to? The IOA or the USAF? And more importantly, where do her loyalties belong? (and no, saying "Earth" is avoiding the question).

imo Carter reports to her superiors on Earth, those people probably report to HWS (-> O'Neill) and he reports to the President. if the IOA wants something changed they vote or decide some other way and tell HWS to send Carter a message about those changes and she'll have to obey (it's a pretty clear chain of command imo)

Pajus
December 11th, 2007, 12:20 PM
imo Carter reports to her superiors on Earth, those people probably report to HWS (-> O'Neill) and he reports to the President. if the IOA wants something changed they vote or decide some other way and tell HWS to send Carter a message about those changes and she'll have to obey (it's a pretty clear chain of command imo)

... that puts the US President in charge of everything

Agent_Dark
December 11th, 2007, 01:19 PM
And had Woolsey added in ALL the detail on his report, Carter would probably be reprimanded or reassigned.


if woolsey had of included that in his report, he probably would have been the one getting the flak...

Jumper_One
December 11th, 2007, 01:24 PM
... that puts the US President in charge of everything

um no. sry I may have been unclear about that. imo O'Neill as head of HWS reports to the President but he can't decide anything without the IOA. now when the IOA makes some decision they most likely inform HWS and through the chain of command Carter'll know about it. the President will most likely receive a memo but nothing else, he most likely let's other people handle this kind of stuff.

but what if the President orders the immediate evacuation of Atlantis by all US troops? how will the IOA and other countries react to that because it's his right to do so, after all he's the boss. I think that's a far more interesting question though it'll probably never happen so it really doesn't matter

prion
December 11th, 2007, 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by prion
And had Woolsey added in ALL the detail on his report, Carter would probably be reprimanded or reassigned.


if woolsey had of included that in his report, he probably would have been the one getting the flak...

No, would have been Sam. She's the one who made the decision, not Woolsey.

Agent_Dark
December 11th, 2007, 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by prion
And had Woolsey added in ALL the detail on his report, Carter would probably be reprimanded or reassigned.



No, would have been Sam. She's the one who made the decision, not Woolsey.

err no. sam owned it up, lurked teh city and lol'd at the noobs blowing each other up. woolsey would have revealed teh position of atlantis to the wraith. considering the IOA have made it clear to Carter that they want Atlantis to lay low for the time being (Reunion), having someone go and turn all the lights on and reveal the position probably would have raged up teh IOA.

Uber
December 12th, 2007, 12:13 AM
So you're saying what? That the IOA didn't appoint her because they perceive her as someone who will follow their orders without question? If she had a reputation for making her own decisions she'd be in the same boat as Sheppard.I didn't say she was a rebel...only that she's principled and wouldn't kowtow to unreasonable demands by the IOA.

She never has cared for bureaucrats and doesn't give a fig about appeasing them to win any kind of points. The Scourge is a more recent example. Woolsey threatened her career and she was completely unmoved by his threat. She's never bowed to political pressure...Kinsey, Simmons, Woolsey...but she does have a funny habit of saving the galaxy and proving her value over and over again.

Pajus
December 12th, 2007, 01:33 AM
um no. sry I may have been unclear about that. imo O'Neill as head of HWS reports to the President but he can't decide anything without the IOA. now when the IOA makes some decision they most likely inform HWS and through the chain of command Carter'll know about it. the President will most likely receive a memo but nothing else, he most likely let's other people handle this kind of stuff.

but what if the President orders the immediate evacuation of Atlantis by all US troops? how will the IOA and other countries react to that because it's his right to do so, after all he's the boss. I think that's a far more interesting question though it'll probably never happen so it really doesn't matter

The US Prsident is the highest superior to both O'Neill and Carter and therefore they HAVE to obey his orders first. Doing otherwise would get the court-martialled very quickly


err no. sam owned it up, lurked teh city and lol'd at the noobs blowing each other up. woolsey would have revealed teh position of atlantis to the wraith. considering the IOA have made it clear to Carter that they want Atlantis to lay low for the time being (Reunion), having someone go and turn all the lights on and reveal the position probably would have raged up teh IOA.

But Woolsey can always write a report that can make her look bad, no matter what consequences her decisions had. As I've said earlier: Disobeying Woolsey = gets kicked. Disobeying O'Neill or the President = gets court-martialled. What would be Carter more afraid of???

Agent_Dark
December 12th, 2007, 03:07 AM
But Woolsey can always write a report that can make her look bad, no matter what consequences her decisions had. As I've said earlier: Disobeying Woolsey = gets kicked. Disobeying O'Neill or the President = gets court-martialled. What would be Carter more afraid of???

disobeying an order from a superior does not automatically mean court-martial. For starts, if the order is illegal/unlawful then you are duty bound not to follow the order and report the illegal order immediately.
Carter is Air-Force, US military sure but that doesn't mean the President of teh US has total control over it. The US no doubt provides most of teh infrastructure and they'd certainly have a large say on it, but it's not 'their' base. International politics to consider here. The US has agreed to operate through the IOA (since they're represented through Woolsey - which, btw, means he's ultimately reportable to the President anyway since he'd be working for a government organisation) which means they play along by the rules they've established with the other states involved.

As for Woolsey? He himself admitted that his tendency to panic in those situations gets teh better of him and that the other IOA people know about it. You really think they're going to his sole word as fact? They wont act on his word alone.

Pajus
December 12th, 2007, 03:12 AM
disobeying an order from a superior does not automatically mean court-martial. For starts, if the order is illegal/unlawful then you are duty bound not to follow the order and report the illegal order immediately.
Carter is Air-Force, US military sure but that doesn't mean the President of teh US has total control over it. The US no doubt provides most of teh infrastructure and they'd certainly have a large say on it, but it's not 'their' base. International politics to consider here. The US has agreed to operate through the IOA (since they're represented through Woolsey - which, btw, means he's ultimately reportable to the President anyway since he'd be working for a government organisation) which means they play along by the rules they've established with the other states involved.

As for Woolsey? He himself admitted that his tendency to panic in those situations gets teh better of him and that the other IOA people know about it. You really think they're going to his sole word as fact? They wont act on his word alone.

Have you considered the possibility that the US President might stop playing by the rules?

PS: If the IOA doesn't trust Woolsey to be able to do this alone, they'd send someone with him. What's the point fo keeping him around if you won't act on his findings?

Agent_Dark
December 12th, 2007, 03:17 AM
Have you considered the possibility that the US President might stop playing by the rules?
And risk upsetting China, Russia, France and teh UK? International politics mate. China especially has shown that it won't sit by if the US walk over them (SG1 season 9, The Scourge in particular).


PS: If the IOA doesn't trust Woolsey to be able to do this alone, they'd send someone with him. What's the point fo keeping him around if you won't act on his findings?
His role was to observe. Something that he explicitly pointed out when he arrived. Not to get into a pissing match with Carter over how to command teh city. The IOA is a bureaucracy, Woolsey doesn't act on his own.

Pajus
December 12th, 2007, 03:33 AM
And risk upsetting China, Russia, France and teh UK? International politics mate. China especially has shown that it won't sit by if the US walk over them (SG1 season 9, The Scourge in particular).


And how is that supposed to matter to him? The Stargate is on US soil, guarded by US Marines, most of the people in Atlantis and Antarctica are Americans too and the Odyssea, Daedalus and Apollo are property of the USAF

Cautious Explorer
December 12th, 2007, 04:10 AM
I didn't say she was a rebel...only that she's principled and wouldn't kowtow to unreasonable demands by the IOA.

No. She doesn't strike me as a rebel. To be honest, she seems too disinterested in anything to take much of a stand.


She never has cared for bureaucrats and doesn't give a fig about appeasing them to win any kind of points. The Scourge is a more recent example. Woolsey threatened her career and she was completely unmoved by his threat. She's never bowed to political pressure...Kinsey, Simmons, Woolsey...but she does have a funny habit of saving the galaxy and proving her value over and over again.

If she's already had a confrontation with Woolsey in the past, then I wonder why the second go-round in Atlantis. IMO it would be more interesting to see her actually stand up to someone she hadn't confronted and won against in the past. It diminishes any stand she took with Woolsey in the Seer. Sometimes it pays not to have watched SG-1.

I did watch an episode the other night where Carter gave an interview with the specific purpose of discrediting a man who had seen an alien. She knew he wasn't lying, but did it anyway. I think that could be construed as bowing to bureaucratic whims. I wasn't watching closely though, so perhaps I missed something. Maybe she told the truth in the end.

Oh, she saved the galaxy! I love it when people bring that up. I'm picturing the golden lasso and bullet-proof bracelets as I type. ;) Hasn't almost everyone in the Stargate program saved the galaxy? I think it's more of a team effort. I don't really think she could have managed to do so single-handedly.

prion
December 12th, 2007, 04:58 AM
err no. sam owned it up, lurked teh city and lol'd at the noobs blowing each other up. woolsey would have revealed teh position of atlantis to the wraith. considering the IOA have made it clear to Carter that they want Atlantis to lay low for the time being (Reunion), having someone go and turn all the lights on and reveal the position probably would have raged up teh IOA.

No, she could offer no tangible reason for her decision except 'intuition.'

prion
December 12th, 2007, 05:00 AM
No. She doesn't strike me as a rebel. To be honest, she seems too disinterested in anything to take much of a stand.


If she's already had a confrontation with Woolsey in the past, then I wonder why the second go-round in Atlantis. IMO it would be more interesting to see her actually stand up to someone she hadn't confronted and won against in the past. It diminishes any stand she took with Woolsey in the Seer. Sometimes it pays not to have watched SG-1.

I did watch an episode the other night where Carter gave an interview with the specific purpose of discrediting a man who had seen an alien. She knew he wasn't lying, but did it anyway. I think that could be construed as bowing to bureaucratic whims. I wasn't watching closely though, so perhaps I missed something. Maybe she told the truth in the end.

Oh, she saved the galaxy! I love it when people bring that up. I'm picturing the golden lasso and bullet-proof bracelets as I type. ;) Hasn't almost everyone in the Stargate program saved the galaxy? I think it's more of a team effort. I don't really think she could have managed to do so single-handedly.

Jack said he lost time of how many times they'd save the galaxy/world, but Teal'c was counting. Yes, it's always a team effort as I recall.

Agent_Dark
December 12th, 2007, 12:54 PM
And how is that supposed to matter to him? The Stargate is on US soil, guarded by US Marines, most of the people in Atlantis and Antarctica are Americans too and the Odyssea, Daedalus and Apollo are property of the USAF

The stargate is on loan from the russians for starters, and secondly countries have gone to war for more trivial reasons. And they dont even have to go war. What do you think would happen if the Chinese broke the news that the USAF was travelling to other planets via wormholes, and have kept it secret for 10+ years? I think you need to learn up on some international studies/politics.

Agent_Dark
December 12th, 2007, 12:56 PM
No, she could offer no tangible reason for her decision except 'intuition.'

what about the fact that todd had been faithful to his word so far? and that sheppard had if not trusted him, at least respected him? it wasn't just a gut instict. add to the fact that the vision that sam saw of atlantis getting destroyed, wasn't by wraith ships.

Pajus
December 12th, 2007, 03:09 PM
The stargate is on loan from the russians for starters, and secondly countries have gone to war for more trivial reasons.

As I've said earlier, the gate is on US soil and guarded by US Marines, so there goes your first statement. To the second-one: Noone (not even the Russians) is crazy enough to use nukes agains Americans and You have no way of fighting a conventional war against the US without Canadian cooperation


And they dont even have to go war. What do you think would happen if the Chinese broke the news that the USAF was travelling to other planets via wormholes, and have kept it secret for 10+ years?

Depends on what other countries will back the story. If the Chinese would get their cooperation, it might get ugly. If not, the world will think the Chinese government is a collection of paranoiacs

jelgate
December 12th, 2007, 03:14 PM
As I've said earlier, the gate is on US soil and guarded by US Marines, so there goes your first statement. To the second-one: Noone (not even the Russians) is crazy enough to use nukes agains Americans and You have no way of fighting a conventional war against the US without Canadian cooperation Thats being navive.?* If the foreign counties wanted to force the US to give the gate. The US is powerful but not invincible

Jumper_One
December 12th, 2007, 04:44 PM
The US Prsident is the highest superior to both O'Neill and Carter and therefore they HAVE to obey his orders first. Doing otherwise would get the court-martialled very quickly

yes I know. what I meant was a situation where the US President recalls all Americans for let's say a few days. I'd find it interesting how the international community would react to that


If she's already had a confrontation with Woolsey in the past, then I wonder why the second go-round in Atlantis. IMO it would be more interesting to see her actually stand up to someone she hadn't confronted and won against in the past.

why not? why introduce another IOA character if you already have one? yes she had confronted him in the past but she didn't win. also that was in s7 IIRC, back then she was a major who strongly disagreed how Woolsey worked and just let him know it. now she's in command of Atlantis, totally different situation imo


It diminishes any stand she took with Woolsey in the Seer. Sometimes it pays not to have watched SG-1.

I disagree. I'd recommend to actually watch the scene with her and Woolsey before talking about it


I did watch an episode the other night where Carter gave an interview with the specific purpose of discrediting a man who had seen an alien. She knew he wasn't lying, but did it anyway. I think that could be construed as bowing to bureaucratic whims. I wasn't watching closely though, so perhaps I missed something. Maybe she told the truth in the end.

you're talking about s8's Covenant which was a different situation. Carter publicly discredited a man who wanted to expose the SG program (btw a guy she already knew), she objected but was ordered to go ahead. again a totally different situation


Oh, she saved the galaxy! I love it when people bring that up. I'm picturing the golden lasso and bullet-proof bracelets as I type. ;) Hasn't almost everyone in the Stargate program saved the galaxy? I think it's more of a team effort. I don't really think she could have managed to do so single-handedly.

yes it's a team effort. but the fact is Carter was part of the flagship team (SG-1). this has to count for something


No, she could offer no tangible reason for her decision except 'intuition.'

she doesn't have to explain her reasons for ordering Shep not to fire. if she'd been wrong it would've been different (however in that case she'd most likely be dead anyway). Carter doesn't need to justify her decisions as long as they're the right ones


Thats being navive.?* If the foreign counties wanted to force the US to give the gate. The US is powerful but not invincible

true, the US is powerful but not invincible

Cautious Explorer
December 12th, 2007, 05:25 PM
why not? why introduce another IOA character if you already have one? yes she had confronted him in the past but she didn't win. also that was in s7 IIRC, back then she was a major who strongly disagreed how Woolsey worked and just let him know it. now she's in command of Atlantis, totally different situation imo

You're right, I didn't see the episode Uber mentioned. So it wasn't just another situation where Carter takes a stand against the IOA representative we're supposed to think is bit of a jerk, stands her ground, and in the end wins the respect of said IOA representative? In that case it would be totally different than the confrontations that both Carter and Weir had with Woolsey.



you're talking about s8's Covenant which was a different situation. Carter publicly discredited a man who wanted to expose the SG program (btw a guy she already knew), she objected but was ordered to go ahead. again a totally different situation

Thanks. So I didn't miss anything. Why do you emphasize the fact that she knew him? Is that supposed to make her discrediting him better or worse? :S



yes it's a team effort. but the fact is Carter was part of the flagship team (SG-1). this has to count for something

Of course it does. But don't you think the contributions of the rest of her team should count for something too? When Carter is hailed as the saviour of the galaxy, it sounds (at least to me) like the rest of her team and the SGC are being diminished. There are a lot of people that have played a part in saving the galaxy.

Jumper_One
December 12th, 2007, 06:38 PM
You're right, I didn't see the episode Uber mentioned. So it wasn't just another situation where Carter takes a stand against the IOA representative we're supposed to think is bit of a jerk, stands her ground, and in the end wins the respect of said IOA representative? In that case it would be totally different than the confrontations that both Carter and Weir had with Woolsey.

I just rewatched this scene from s7's 'Heroes'. Carter's pretty pissed but she doesn't take a stand against Woolsey which makes this a different situation


Thanks. So I didn't miss anything. Why do you emphasize the fact that she knew him? Is that supposed to make her discrediting him better or worse? :S

you're welcome. I was only trying to point out that Carter didn't want to publivly humilitate and discredit a person, even though he threatened to let the public know about the SG program. I just wanted to mention that she new this guy to emphasize how hard it was for Carter to follow her orders


Of course it does. But don't you think the contributions of the rest of her team should count for something too? When Carter is hailed as the saviour of the galaxy, it sounds (at least to me) like the rest of her team and the SGC are being diminished. There are a lot of people that have played a part in saving the galaxy.

yes of course the team's important. but there's a difference between saving the galaxy by force and by out-thinking the enemy and being smart -> Carter. and no I in no way feel that this diminishes the contributions of her teammates

Mattathias2.0
December 12th, 2007, 07:15 PM
I was wondering where Carter was myself, being her second week out of an episode. But on the other hand, the episode was done well and I could see how she wasn't needed in the story.

As it stands Carter will ONLY be out for 2 more episodes, since she hasn't appeared in Travelers, Missing, Miller's Crossing and This Mortal Coil. I am banking she won't appear in Outcast and Harmony.

Avenger
December 12th, 2007, 09:34 PM
And how is that supposed to matter to him? The Stargate is on US soil, guarded by US Marines, most of the people in Atlantis and Antarctica are Americans too and the Odyssea, Daedalus and Apollo are property of the USAF

Money. The IOA controls funding for the SG programs.

Pajus
December 13th, 2007, 12:43 AM
Thats being navive.?* If the foreign counties wanted to force the US to give the gate. The US is powerful but not invincible

In order to wage a conventional war, you have to have a direct border. That's why waging a conventional war against the US is impossible without the cooperation from either Canada or Mexico. And using nukes would be for nothing, 'cause I have a gut feeling (my Jedi sense is telling me) that the drone chair can be used against nukes as well.

When it comes to the money: The US had no problems financing the Stargate program for the first few years. Even with Atlantis, the entire program has no way of consuming more than 6 billion dollars per year. That's like a spit in an ocean compared to the US military budget (app 380 billion dollars per year)


yes I know. what I meant was a situation where the US President recalls all Americans for let's say a few days. I'd find it interesting how the international community would react to that

They'd find new people and send them to Atlantis to do the jobs of Americans. What else could they do?

Jumper_One
December 13th, 2007, 10:03 AM
I was wondering where Carter was myself, being her second week out of an episode. But on the other hand, the episode was done well and I could see how she wasn't needed in the story.

yes that's how I felt about it too. it would've been nice to have seen her but the ep was indeed very well done. the only possible scene for would've been right after the team gets DupliWeir's message


As it stands Carter will ONLY be out for 2 more episodes, since she hasn't appeared in Travelers, Missing, Miller's Crossing and This Mortal Coil. I am banking she won't appear in Outcast and Harmony.

same here Outcast takes place on Earth and Harmony will most likely be another Shep/Rodney ep


Money. The IOA controls funding for the SG programs.

yes, thanks for reminding us about that :)


In order to wage a conventional war, you have to have a direct border. That's why waging a conventional war against the US is impossible without the cooperation from either Canada or Mexico. And using nukes would be for nothing, 'cause I have a gut feeling (my Jedi sense is telling me) that the drone chair can be used against nukes as well.

When it comes to the money: The US had no problems financing the Stargate program for the first few years. Even with Atlantis, the entire program has no way of consuming more than 6 billion dollars per year. That's like a spit in an ocean compared to the US military budget (app 380 billion dollars per year)

6 billion dollars? are you sure about that?


They'd find new people and send them to Atlantis to do the jobs of Americans. What else could they do?

IDK that's why I find it interesting. yup, replacing all Americans is certainly one possibility

Pajus
December 13th, 2007, 10:25 AM
6 billion dollars? are you sure about that?

In SG-1 S1 episode 'Politics', Kinsey stated that the Stargate Program had a budget of 4 billion dollars (first year of operations)

Atlantis has to be cheaper (electricity bills are kind of irrelevant, has less personnel, ...)


IDK that's why I find it interesting. yup, replacing all Americans is certainly one possibility

It's the only possibility. Without the Americans, Atlantis would be so undermanned, it's almost scary.

Jumper_One
December 13th, 2007, 10:37 AM
In SG-1 S1 episode 'Politics', Kinsey stated that the Stargate Program had a budget of 4 billion dollars (first year of operations)

Atlantis has to be cheaper (electricity bills are kind of irrelevant, has less personnel, ...)

thanks, I knew it was mentioned in an ep but I couldn't remember


It's the only possibility. Without the Americans, Atlantis would be so undermanned, it's almost scary.

yeah SG without the US is pretty hard to imagine

Pajus
December 13th, 2007, 10:54 AM
yeah SG without the US is pretty hard to imagine

The IOA would soon have to find people to replace them - that's the only choice they'd have

prion
December 13th, 2007, 10:56 AM
you're talking about s8's Covenant which was a different situation. Carter publicly discredited a man who wanted to expose the SG program (btw a guy she already knew), she objected but was ordered to go ahead. again a totally different situation


Which also shows that even if she dislikes what she had to do, she does follow orders, so she was the perfect person to slot into the Atlantis command slot, as she will do what the IOA, or USAF, or whowever is in charge, orders.



she doesn't have to explain her reasons for ordering Shep not to fire. if she'd been wrong it would've been different (however in that case she'd most likely be dead anyway). Carter doesn't need to justify her decisions as long as they're the right ones


Yeah, but it was the flip of a coin. If she'd been wrong, she'd have her head handed to her, probably by a wraith ;)

Jumper_One
December 13th, 2007, 11:23 AM
Which also shows that even if she dislikes what she had to do, she does follow orders, so she was the perfect person to slot into the Atlantis command slot, as she will do what the IOA, or USAF, or whowever is in charge, orders.

yup the IOA makes a decision and forwards it to the USAF which tells Carter to carry out their orders -> Sam does as she's told. however she didn't have to obey Woolsey since he was supposed to be an observer and not interfere with command decisions


Yeah, but it was the flip of a coin. If she'd been wrong, she'd have her head handed to her, probably by a wraith ;)

lol fortunately she was right ;)

Mattathias2.0
December 13th, 2007, 11:32 AM
same here Outcast takes place on Earth and Harmony will most likely be another Shep/Rodney ep

That is why I am banking on those as her not being in them.
Outcast is Shep-centric and Earth based, not far unlike Miller's Crossing which was Rodney-centric and also Earth based. What could they do with Carter in this story? Nothing important.

and...

Granted, I am not looking for Harmony because it sounds silly, I can't see what Carter could possibly do when it will all take place off-world and between Rodney and Shep.

also...

We can confirm Carter IS in BAMSR, Trio, Midway and The Last Man.

Jumper_One
December 13th, 2007, 11:50 AM
That is why I am banking on those as her not being in them.

and I agree


Outcast is Shep-centric and Earth based, not far unlike Miller's Crossing which was Rodney-centric and also Earth based. What could they do with Carter in this story? Nothing important.

well they could do something but it'd be stupid. if she doesn't fit just let her out of it. I'd rather prefer to see more of Carter in eps that really matter. sine this ep takes place on Earth it's ok to go without Carter imo


and...

Granted, I am not looking for Harmony because it sounds silly, I can't see what Carter could possibly do when it will all take place off-world and between Rodney and Shep.

ah I agree Harmony sounds like a silly ep but so have others in the past, guess we'll have to wait


also...

We can confirm Carter IS in BAMSR, Trio, Midway and The Last Man.

yup :)

RealmOfX
December 13th, 2007, 01:17 PM
<snip>
But Woolsey can always write a report that can make her look bad, no matter what consequences her decisions had. As I've said earlier: Disobeying Woolsey = gets kicked. Disobeying O'Neill or the President = gets court-martialled. What would be Carter more afraid of???

Actually I think you really don't understand what the IOA has a right to do and what they don't.

The IOA is an oversight committee and their power comes from their ability to exert pressure in the allocation of funds for the SGC (including the Atlantis Expedition). Once Atlantis went to a war footing and they put a military officer in charge their power diminished. An IOA noob sent to observe would not have the authority nor the experience to take over command of the expedition on demand. In "reality" Woolsey would have been overstepping his authority in the IOA by trying to take over command and Sam was correct to ignore him because he has no authority to give her orders or remove her directly from command. What he does have the authority to do is report on her actions to the IOA and then the IOA can then start duking it out with the military to see who gets their way.


<snip>
When it comes to the money: The US had no problems financing the Stargate program for the first few years. Even with Atlantis, the entire program has no way of consuming more than 6 billion dollars per year. That's like a spit in an ocean compared to the US military budget (app 380 billion dollars per year)

Dude you are way off base with that figure!! A US aircraft carrier costs around $US4.5 billion to build so what do you think it cost to DEVELOP the technology and BUILD all the spaceships from the first Death Glider hybrid and the Prometheus through to the Apollo?

The program isn't on the same scale as in Season 1.

Pajus
December 13th, 2007, 01:56 PM
Dude you are way off base with that figure!! A US aircraft carrier costs around $US4.5 billion to build so what do you think it cost to DEVELOP the technology and BUILD all the spaceships from the first Death Glider hybrid and the Prometheus through to the Apollo?

The program isn't on the same scale as in Season 1.

So you're trying t tell me the IOA is also financing the BC-304 construction and technology development? That's nonsense. BC-304 are constructed (and paid) by the respective armies. That means the IOA doesn't pay for that either way. And the technology development is mainly focused on reverse-engineering of already existing alien technologies (that can be done very cheaply). The Stargate program itself is bigger, but that doesn't meant it's as expensive as you think

RealmOfX
December 13th, 2007, 02:23 PM
So you're trying t tell me the IOA is also financing the BC-304 construction and technology development? That's nonsense. BC-304 are constructed (and paid) by the respective armies. That means the IOA doesn't pay for that either way. And the technology development is mainly focused on reverse-engineering of already existing alien technologies (that can be done very cheaply). The Stargate program itself is bigger, but that doesn't meant it's as expensive as you think

Dude did I say the IOA was financing anything?

I said that the IOA is an oversight committee. They have political influence on the budget - they don't provide it. Also we are talking about the US Airforce not the army - I thought we cleared that up with you in another thread???

Reverse engineering totally new alien technology is EASY???? :eyeroll: reverse engineering anything is not easy especially when you are dealing with totally alien concepts in the first place. The cost of the research alone is huge let alone the construction costs.

Uber
December 13th, 2007, 02:35 PM
No. She doesn't strike me as a rebel. To be honest, she seems too disinterested in anything to take much of a stand.Wow. You and I are seeing two completely different Carters then. When it comes to her team...her people...her family...her friends...her principles...she's shown repeatedly that she'll stand up and fight against whatever opposes them. Way too many examples...but here are a few. She went to hell to save her dad and endured torture to protect earth and the Tok'ra. She disobeyed orders and went down to comfort Cassie. She's fought for the chance to rescue her teammates when they were lost on multiple occasions.
If she's already had a confrontation with Woolsey in the past, then I wonder why the second go-round in Atlantis. IMO it would be more interesting to see her actually stand up to someone she hadn't confronted and won against in the past. It diminishes any stand she took with Woolsey in the Seer. Sometimes it pays not to have watched SG-1.I'd love to see her against someone else that she hasn't won stare downs with but she usually wins those. Most of the people who've gotten in her face died or are no longer around (not that what happened to them was related to standing up to her).

Simmons...for instance. In The Fifth Man, she was prepared to defy General Hammond's orders and take Daniel and Teal'c back to rescue Jack and another teammate. Under threat of being shot, she stood down and they were all taken away. Later on, she broke into the base computer (once again defying orders) to find out what was going on. When Simmons confronted her, she didn't bat an eyelash and turned the conversation back on him.

Kinsey's missing. Maybourne's off on his king world and General Bauer's somewhere...else.
I did watch an episode the other night where Carter gave an interview with the specific purpose of discrediting a man who had seen an alien. She knew he wasn't lying, but did it anyway. I think that could be construed as bowing to bureaucratic whims. I wasn't watching closely though, so perhaps I missed something. Maybe she told the truth in the end.No she wasn't bowing to bureaucratic whims...she was given a lawful order by her superior officer and was bound to follow it...distasteful as it was to her to do so.
Oh, she saved the galaxy! I love it when people bring that up. I'm picturing the golden lasso and bullet-proof bracelets as I type. ;) Hasn't almost everyone in the Stargate program saved the galaxy? I think it's more of a team effort. I don't really think she could have managed to do so single-handedly.Usually it is a team effort and she always says it is a team effort...but there are a few times when it was her doing the saving, just like each of the others have themselves single handedly saved the day.

Cautious Explorer
December 13th, 2007, 03:01 PM
Wow. You and I are seeing two completely different Carters then.

Absolutely. I think that's a given.



When it comes to her team...her people...her family...her friends...her principles...she's shown repeatedly that she'll stand up and fight against whatever opposes them. Way too many examples...but here are a few. She went to hell to save her dad and endured torture to protect earth and the Tok'ra. She disobeyed orders and went down to comfort Cassie. She's fought for the chance to rescue her teammates when they were lost on multiple occasions.

But all of that was on a different show. She needs to prove herself on Atlantis. So far she hasn't done anything that makes me think she belongs there. I've yet to see any warmth or confidence or any real leadership. She seems ill at ease, closed off and not all that bright (yes, I know she's supposed to be a genious). It may just be that I can't connect with what AT is trying to present. :S



Usually it is a team effort and she always says it is a team effort...but there are a few times when it was her doing the saving, just like each of the others have themselves single handedly saved the day.

It's just a pet peeve of mine when people talk about individual characters saving the galaxy. How rediculous. It takes a whole group of people at the SGC or in Atlantis. Single-handed galaxy saving belongs to comic books and superheroes. Until she develops super powers I'm not buying it.

Uber
December 13th, 2007, 03:08 PM
But all of that was on a different show. She needs to prove herself on Atlantis. So far she hasn't done anything that makes me think she belongs there. I've yet to see any warmth or confidence or any real leadership. She seems ill at ease, closed off and not all that bright (yes, I know she's supposed to be a genious). It may just be that I can't connect with what AT is trying to present. :SThat's fair. I also think it's temporary...at least Amanda's side of it (whether or not you connect to what you see is another matter). Amanda stated that she played Carter this way intentionally. She wanted her to slowly evolve in the role, not plop herself down and be perfectly at ease from the get-go.

Even then, she's put herself out there, leading the rescue mission to save her main team from the Wraith.

As for her smarts? Yeah...she's a genius. We haven't seen her use her smarts yet but as I understand it, there will be times when she'll be working with McKay/Zelenka on a problem...so hopefully you'll get that insight into her at that time.
It's just a pet peeve of mine when people talk about individual characters saving the galaxy. How rediculous. It takes a whole group of people at the SGC or in Atlantis. Single-handed galaxy saving belongs to comic books and superheroes. Until she develops super powers I'm not buying it.LOL Fair enough.

My point was that they all have individually done earth/galaxy saving things and this has buffered them when they've done something wrong. I daresay the same is true on SGA.

Pajus
December 13th, 2007, 11:37 PM
Dude did I say the IOA was financing anything?

I said that the IOA is an oversight committee. They have political influence on the budget - they don't provide it. Also we are talking about the US Airforce not the army - I thought we cleared that up with you in another thread???

By "Army" I mean "Armed force". Sure you agree the USAF is an armed force. Plus I might have to use that term because of the Korolev (Russians don't have a separate Army and Air force and they build 304s too)


Reverse engineering totally new alien technology is EASY???? :eyeroll: reverse engineering anything is not easy especially when you are dealing with totally alien concepts in the first place. The cost of the research alone is huge let alone the construction costs.

... but still easier and cheaper than making those things from scratch

RealmOfX
December 14th, 2007, 12:23 AM
By "Army" I mean "Armed force". Sure you agree the USAF is an armed force. Plus I might have to use that term because of the Korolev (Russians don't have a separate Army and Air force and they build 304s too)



... but still easier and cheaper than making those things from scratch

Sorry sunshine, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Pajus
December 14th, 2007, 03:24 AM
Sorry sunshine, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Right back at 'ya

Agent_Dark
December 14th, 2007, 03:47 PM
... but still easier and cheaper than making those things from scratch
right. its kinda hard to reverse engineer something when you dont know how it works. you remember back in sg1 and the X-301? they had no idea how the death-gliders engines worked. The X-302 was built primarily out of current day earth level technology. It was made out of scratch.
The Prometheus was made out of scratch, and wasn't until the season 8 episode 'Covenenant' that the Asgard came along and installed some of their technology to it for an upgrade. The Deadalus needed an Asgard engineer aboard to control the newer Asgard tech installed of that, not to mention that the Asgard installed tech was limited in function.


By "Army" I mean "Armed force". Sure you agree the USAF is an armed force. Plus I might have to use that term because of the Korolev (Russians don't have a separate Army and Air force and they build 304s too)
Mate, you really dont know what you're talking about. The Russian Air Force (VVS) is a separate service from their Army. In fact, the Russian Army's aviation assets (helicopters mainly) were merged with the VVS in 2003.

Skydiver
December 14th, 2007, 04:08 PM
guys, i gotta say, if this can't be kept on topic, which is 'where's sam in mortail coil' then it needs to be closed or merged into the general 'more sam' thread

if someone is gonna start one of these in every eps that sam's not in, it needs to stay centered around the episode please

Jumper_One
December 14th, 2007, 06:55 PM
hm sky I think you killed the thread :p

Mattathias2.0
December 14th, 2007, 07:12 PM
Well, it's likely since JM said in his blog that Continuum could take place anytime. Maybe It takes place during one of her episode absences, like this one.

EDIT: Nope, not dead.

Jumper_One
December 14th, 2007, 07:22 PM
Well, it's likely since JM said in his blog that Continuum could take place anytime. Maybe It takes place during one of her episode absences, like this one.

EDIT: Nope, not dead.

ah you couldn't resist resurrecting this thread could ya? :p

anyway Continuum takes place before s4 of Atlantis. we don't know when exactly but since Sam's still part of SG-1 it has to be set before s4

Freekzilla
December 15th, 2007, 11:17 AM
Just a thought I had. Doesn't the presence of Sam on Atlantis now make SG-1 DVD movies (as far as timeline and character availability goes) a bit unlikely for the Sam character? I mean, if Sam is now on Atlantis, how could she also be in a SG-1 mission? Unless, it's one of those "let's call her back for a day so she can save the day" kind of deals, isn't she pretty much unavailable now? How are they going to work that one out?

Jumper_One
December 15th, 2007, 11:36 AM
Just a thought I had. Doesn't the presence of Sam on Atlantis now make SG-1 DVD movies (as far as timeline and character availability goes) a bit unlikely for the Sam character? I mean, if Sam is now on Atlantis, how could she also be in a SG-1 mission? Unless, it's one of those "let's call her back for a day so she can save the day" kind of deals, isn't she pretty much unavailable now? How are they going to work that one out?

TBTB confirmed that AoT and Continuum take place before s4 which means Sam's still part of SG-1

Mitchell82
December 15th, 2007, 12:52 PM
Just a thought I had. Doesn't the presence of Sam on Atlantis now make SG-1 DVD movies (as far as timeline and character availability goes) a bit unlikely for the Sam character? I mean, if Sam is now on Atlantis, how could she also be in a SG-1 mission? Unless, it's one of those "let's call her back for a day so she can save the day" kind of deals, isn't she pretty much unavailable now? How are they going to work that one out?

The movies were initally set to be released prior to season 4 but they wanted to enhance the special effects to make the movies even more spectacular. As such JM said that they take place prior to season 4 so no continuity issues.

MelissaAdams
December 21st, 2007, 06:29 AM
Hey there ladies and guys,

*Waves*

I don't usually reply on the forums but once in a while when I'm bored or have some time I'll scroll through a few threads. I didn't read all of this one but scanned the first couple pages and it seems that no one ever really answered the why wasn't Carter in TMC (This Mortal Coil) episode question and I read this so thought I'd share...my apologies if someone said this already.

Before that however let me say that personally I'm more an Amanda fan than a Torri one but I like both leaders of Atlantis equally well so I would have been fine had they put both of them in there together but they didn't and I still think it was a great episode. :sam: Not the normal blow em up mid season finale we're used to but it was an emotional blow em up one so that's good.

As for why Sam wasn't in TMC on Joe Mallozzi's blog, sorry I don't have the link to the new one since his old one is giving him issues, the day after the episode aired I think he said that the actress, Amanda Tapping, is only contracted to do so many episodes of Stargate Atlantis this season...14 I think, and that if they had her in TMC it woud have used up one appearance for what would have been at most a second having her nod to Sheppard's request and information to go on the mission so it was presumed she gave the go and just wasn't shown on screen therefore saving an appearance for Amanda's character in the future.

I suppose as fans we can presume she was anywhere just like we do with every seen that isn't shown on screen over the course of the series.

Anyway hope that helps whoever asked the original question.

Freekzilla
December 21st, 2007, 09:28 PM
TBTB confirmed that AoT and Continuum take place before s4 which means Sam's still part of SG-1


The movies were initally set to be released prior to season 4 but they wanted to enhance the special effects to make the movies even more spectacular. As such JM said that they take place prior to season 4 so no continuity issues.

Alrighty then. That makes sense. But that only applies to these two DVD movies. What about any future ones? See what I'm saying? If there are any future DVD movies, it will be kinda hard to keep things straight considering the situation. I mean, there's only so much time between when Unending took place and the start of S4, plus there is such a thing as actors getting older and looking different, so you can't have a DVD movie made 3 years from now taking place before S4 happens; wouldn't work right if you ask me.

Jumper_One
December 22nd, 2007, 08:27 AM
Alrighty then. That makes sense. But that only applies to these two DVD movies. What about any future ones? See what I'm saying? If there are any future DVD movies, it will be kinda hard to keep things straight considering the situation. I mean, there's only so much time between when Unending took place and the start of S4, plus there is such a thing as actors getting older and looking different, so you can't have a DVD movie made 3 years from now taking place before S4 happens; wouldn't work right if you ask me.

I know what you mean. check out this (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=49474) thread in the movie section, people have been talking about how to incorporate Carter in a possiblethird SG-1 movie for some time now ;)

TheReturnOfTheLantian
December 22nd, 2007, 08:28 AM
there any point in this topic? she's gone on holiday end off. and they have already said before when season 4 started that she was in 10 episode's

Jumper_One
December 22nd, 2007, 08:31 AM
there any point in this topic? she's gone on holiday end off. and they have already said before when season 4 started that she was in 10 episode's

yes there's a point to this thread, at least there was. um Carter will be in 14 eps this season, 6 in the first half and 8 in the back half ;)

Mitchell82
December 22nd, 2007, 03:56 PM
I know what you mean. check out this (http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=49474) thread in the movie section, people have been talking about how to incorporate Carter in a possiblethird SG-1 movie for some time now ;)

Yeah so many possibilities. My guess I she takes time of to be with her love toy.;)

Jumper_One
December 22nd, 2007, 04:11 PM
Yeah so many possibilities. My guess I she takes time of to be with her love toy.;)

haha can you imagine? the S/J shippers would go crazy :p

Mitchell82
December 22nd, 2007, 07:13 PM
haha can you imagine? the S/J shippers would go crazy :p

hehehe I'm one of them. I may be a guy but I'm also a hopeless romantic.

Freekzilla
December 22nd, 2007, 09:37 PM
*eyes roll*

Jumper_One
December 29th, 2007, 11:19 AM
hehehe I'm one of them. I may be a guy but I'm also a hopeless romantic.

really? well at least your ship's still alive and well... and most likely real ;)


*eyes roll*

:lol:

Freekzilla
December 29th, 2007, 11:11 PM
really? well at least your ship's still alive and well... and most likely real ;)



:lol:

Yes, I thought it best to just keep my big fat mouth shut for once. :D

Professor D.H.D. Puddlejumper
September 22nd, 2008, 05:42 PM
yes there's a point to this thread, at least there was. um Carter will be in 14 eps this season, 6 in the first half and 8 in the back half ;)

I realize this is an old thread, and my comments may be somewhat redundant now. But I recently watched this episode again and I got the distinct impression that the part Lorne played was originally intended for Carter. Since it would have exceeded the 14 eps she was to have been in for the season, they rewrote the part for Lorne. It was a leadership role, easy to imagine Carter playing. Just a thought.

Rudy Pena
September 28th, 2008, 06:37 PM
obviously the lanteans would be oblivous to her existence, but shouldn't she have been a part of the real Atlantis investigation on in this episode?

she was the smartest one of the SGC, and well aware of replicator technologies.
she should at least be getting her feet wet alongside Becket to figure out these new problems.

I hate to see her in a Hammond/Weir type role of doing nothing but "ok I give you the go" type spots.

I want the old Scientist Carter.Here is the reason why shes not in the ep.

ROOM IN THE OUTER CITY. Rodney glares at Jennifer.

McKAY: You're Replicators.

KELLER: That's right. Until you began making changes to our base code, we were forbidden from assuming the form of any living human, but now we can take any form we like.

McKAY: You couldn't have replaced everyone on the base. It's impossible!

KELLER: Only because you believe this is the real Atlantis, and that you're the real Doctor McKay.


LORNE: All that you are – your thoughts, your memories – everything was taken from the real John Sheppard and his team when their minds were probed over a year ago.

(In the other room)

McKAY (to Jennifer): Ah ha! See, now I know you're lying, because a year ago Carson Beckett was our Chief of Medicine, not Doctor Keller. In fact, she hadn't even arrived yet.

KELLER: This scenario was updated with information obtained from the last member of your expedition to be captured by the Replicators – Elizabeth Weir.
Now Weir was taken in Lifeline, when Col. Shepphard had assumed command of Atlantis since Weir was taken by their enemy and Sam was not yet put in charge of Atlantis.



By "Army" I mean "Armed force". Sure you agree the USAF is an armed force. Plus I might have to use that term because of the Korolev (Russians don't have a separate Army and Air force and they build 304s too)

... but still easier and cheaper than making those things from scratchThe Russians do not build 304s. In SG-1 Season 9, they wanted the gate back(China kinda had a helping hand in that) and inorder for the Russians not to have control of the gate was to give them the next 304 that came off the line.



S.G.C. BRIEFING ROOM. Landry enters the room where Colonel Chekov and Shen Xiaoyi await him.

Chekov stands at the window, looking down on the Stargate.

The S.F. guards snap to attention as Landry walks into the room.

LANDRY: I'm very sorry to keep you waiting.

SHEN: Where is Doctor Jackson?

LANDRY: He's uh, otherwise occupied at the moment. We're going to have to proceed without him.

Landry sits down.

Chekov crosses over to the table and takes his seat.

CHEKOV: That is no matter. I only asked he be here as a courtesy, seeing as he negotiated the original treaty between our two countries resulting in Russia loaning you our Stargate.

LANDRY: Yes, loaning. In return for full participation in this program and considerable sums of money.

Shen smiles at Landry.

CHEKOV: I am aware of that. As I said, I only ask for this meeting out of courtesy to you and Doctor Jackson. You have been admirable comrades in our co-operative efforts. However, official notification has been given to your President as we speak.

LANDRY: Of what?

CHEKOV: Well, as you know, the treaty renewal comes up in two weeks. Russia will no longer be participating under the current structure.

LANDRY: What are you saying?

CHEKOV: I am saying -- we are taking our Stargate back.

Landry frowns and looks at Shen in askance.

She smiles at him and he looks away as the situation becomes clear.

LANDRY: Telling me about your Government's intentions was more than mere courtesy. Doing it with a Chinese representative of the oversight committee present was meant to point out China's involvement. That wasn't in the official notification to terminate the treaty given to the President.

CHEKOV: Obviously, it couldn't be.

Landry sighs. He is fed up of this.

LANDRY: They offered you a deal to back your own S.G.C. programme. In truth, you don't really know if you like that scenario any better than the one currently in practice. You did however see an opportunity to use it as leverage…

He looks at Chekov, accusingly. The Russian looks away.

LANDRY: But you couldn't very well present a wish list along with the official notification without it looking like blackmail or have it on record that you were merely using the Chinese, so you left it to me to figure out and ask you the question: What is it you really want?


S.G.C. CORRIDOR. General Landry and Daniel Jackson ride in an elevator. It comes to a halt and they wait for the doors to open.

DANIEL: So what exactly did we have to give up in the end?

LANDRY: A 304.

DANIEL: Really? I'm surprised the president agreed to that.

They step out of the lift and begin to walk down the corridor towards the Briefing Room.

LANDRY: Colonel Chekov has had his eye on one for a while. The latest was just about to roll out.

DANIEL: I thought the next Daedalus class ship wasn't due out of the pipeline for over a year.

LANDRY: It was a huge concession but we didn't have much choice.