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GateWorld
November 30th, 2007, 09:40 AM
<DIV ALIGN="center"><TABLE WIDTH="450" BORDER="0" CELLSPACING="0" CELLPADDING="7"><TR><TD><DIV ALIGN="left"><FONT FACE="Verdana, Arial, san-serif" SIZE="2" COLOR="#000000"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/409.shtml"><IMG SRC="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/graphics/409.jpg" WIDTH="160" HEIGHT="120" ALIGN="right" HSPACE="10" VSPACE="2" BORDER="0" STYLE="border: 1px black solid" ALT="Visit the Episode Guide"></A><FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888">ATLANTIS SEASON FOUR</FONT>
<FONT SIZE="4"><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/409.shtml" STYLE="text-decoration: none">MILLER'S CROSSING</A></FONT>
<FONT SIZE="1">EPISODE NUMBER - 409</FONT>
<IMG SRC="/images/clear.gif" WIDTH="1" HEIGHT="10" ALT="">
Rodney McKay goes in search of his sister on Earth after she is kidnapped by the head of a powerful corporation.

<FONT SIZE="1" COLOR="#888888"><B><A HREF="http://www.gateworld.net/atlantis/s4/409.shtml">VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE ></A></B>
SPOILERS! PHOTOS! AND MORE!</FONT></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

Lord Adama
November 30th, 2007, 06:59 PM
That was a really good episode.

Homeslice55
November 30th, 2007, 07:02 PM
Definitely my favorite of the season. So good. My heart skipped a beat seeing a Wraith in the SGC. And the preview for next week... delicious.

Ruined_puzzle
November 30th, 2007, 07:02 PM
I'm more excited for next week based on the preview.

GateLadyM
November 30th, 2007, 07:03 PM
This episode was all over the map and it felt like the writers didn't know which way they wanted to go.

What a mess.

Sweetsong
November 30th, 2007, 07:04 PM
I don't know why I half hoped when that Wallace guy first injected Jeannie with the nanites that it was only water and he did it only as a baseless threat. But when they started testing their changes with the nanites in her blood I realized that wasn't the case.

I just find it so hard to believe, that a man who wanted to save his daughter would risk the life of somebody else with the belief that these two strangers could make his daughter well again.

Something even harder to swallow was seeing Shepard talk the guy into sacrifcing himself to the wraith so it could continue it's work to save Jeannie, I suppose it was the easy way out for the writers to get the wraith a home cooked meal...

Overall, entertaining episode as usual, I liked getting to see Ronan in civilian clothes.

Infernorhythm
November 30th, 2007, 07:04 PM
That was great! A wonderful character drama, with some very genre shifting scenes (Ronon and Sheppard: best new cop pairing), and a great ending. Wow.

I loved Sheppard's line near the start "CSIS? That's the best you could come up with?"

And Zelenka is always great.

4.5/5

technoextreme
November 30th, 2007, 07:04 PM
This episode was all over the map and it felt like the writers didn't know which way they wanted to go.

What a mess.
Really what show were you watching?

Something even harder to swallow was seeing Shepard talk the guy into sacrifcing himself to the wraith so it could continue it's work to save Jeannie, I suppose it was the easy way out for the writers to get the wraith a home cooked meal...

I don't know. His daughter was dead because of her. His actions was going to kill another person. He was effectively a dead man walking.

I'm more excited for next week based on the preview.
I can't believe that the seerers prophecy is coming true this soon.

freyr's mother
November 30th, 2007, 07:05 PM
Now Todd can bragg to the other wraith about being the first wraith to make it to earth as well as the fact that Earth sacrificed one of their own. Great episode though. I really didnt predict the wraith would come to help until i saw the marine come through the gate with a wraith stunner in hand pointing towards the gate. Unpredictable (somewhat) until the last moment.

MarshAngel
November 30th, 2007, 07:06 PM
Finally! John does something truly interesting and defining. About time. Granted we always knew he cared about his friends but its nice to actually see how far he'd go and what lines he'd cross when it doesn't involve the black and white issues of shoot or be shot.

A pretty good episode. This season, so far, is superior to the last... but just so the compliments don't go too far...it really didn't take much to surpass s.3

TDgamer
November 30th, 2007, 07:06 PM
"And physically..."

"What?"

"Well... you're no John Sheppard"

scififreak23
November 30th, 2007, 07:07 PM
This was one of the best episodes of the season! The acting was fantastic by everyone in it. Man i gotta tell you, that scene where sheppard talked that guy into killing himself was very unnerving. Joe did a fantastic job with that scene! I felt bad for henry wallace.He was just trying to save his daughter's life. Ronan was great in this episode, he looked so funny in earth clothes! Loved the fact that mckay was willing to be fed on to save his sister. The rodney/todd scenes were wonderful.I loved how rodney talked him into helping him save his sister. The end scene with mckay and sheppard was great also.The two have come along way since the first episode.

next weeks episode looks really good.

Xicer
November 30th, 2007, 07:09 PM
I thought it was good though I'm not sure about the Wallace guy. He just seemed like way too simple and predictable of a villain. Also, I kept asking myself why Agent Barrett was even in this episode, he played no significant role in the episode and it just felt like he was in the background. I mean I like his character but it just seemed redundant having him in this episode.

I liked seeing Todd again as well as Jeannie.

Next week looks great.

AGateFan
November 30th, 2007, 07:09 PM
My god this was a crappy, cring-worthy, unbelievably stupid episode.

Any redeeming qualities? Um, Ronan’s “dumb” comment, probably because it did such a good job foreshadowing the script. Too bad we can’t get Ronan to point his gun at it and disintergrate it into non-existence.

Stupid and cringe-worthy.
SGC has become voyager S1. Everyone in the universe knows about the program. But I guess that makes sense if our resident genius is FREAKING EMAILING alien programs across unsecured networks. I think I heard a thud, I think it was my company’s security officer having a stroke.

Sappy bad guy, it was a blessing that he was fed to the wraith but very pathetically anti-moral of Sheppard. How exactly am I supposed to have respect for him? Or McKay for “thanking” him?

What idiot would bring the wraith to the SGC… or volunteer to get eaten by one… oh right, Mckay.

Stupid and cringe-worthy….and did I mention boring? I was looking at the clock at 10:30 wondering if it would ever end.

Walter = Cringe-worthy
NID guy = Cringe-worthy
Ronan = still cool but as bored as I was
Sheppard = scumbag
Badguy = Scumbag and sappy and boring
Mckay = idiot
Jennie = sadly strapped to this horrible role by her brother
Jennies husband = annoying.
Waith = just shaking my head.


Next week previews Weir and the vision I have a little bit of hope that this is just a one off bad ep and that we will not spiral into a S9-S10 tragedy…..but as this ep kicked me in the gut with its patheticness, it’s a slim hope.

technoextreme
November 30th, 2007, 07:11 PM
This was one of the best episodes of the season! The acting was fantastic by everyone in it. Man i gotta tell you, that scene where sheppard talked that guy into killing himself was very unnerving. Joe did a fantastic job with that scene! I felt bad for henry wallace.He was just trying to save his daughter's life. Ronan was great in this episode, he looked so funny in earth clothes! Loved the fact that mckay was willing to be fed on to save his sister. The rodney/todd scenes were wonderful.I loved how rodney talked him into helping him save his sister. The end scene with mckay and sheppard was great also.The two have come along way since the first episode.

next weeks episode looks really good.
True. I think the greatest scene in this episode was where Ronan was sitting there not saying a word. He had the 'Im going to kill someone' look.

What idiot would bring the wraith to the SGC… or volunteer to get eaten by one… oh right, Mckay.
If your sister was going to be killed because of your stupidity then I'd probably sacrifice myself also.

SGC has become voyager S1. Everyone in the universe knows about the program. But I guess that makes sense if our resident genius is FREAKING EMAILING alien programs across unsecured networks. I think I heard a thud, I think it was my company’s security officer having a stroke.
Actually, you'd be a moron if you thought that you couldn't send data over networks securely even the internet. There are such things called encryption.

prion
November 30th, 2007, 07:13 PM
I'm assuming we can discuss spoilers here.

OH...MY....GOD....

It could easily have been a simplistic kidnap and rescue, even the threat of Jeannie with the nanites, but Sheppard 'offering' up the solution with the kidnapper to make things right... shudder.

Oh, and I now despise TIN MAN for all the ads they stamped all over this episode.

Briangate78
November 30th, 2007, 07:13 PM
What an amazing episode. Filled with action, suspense, drama, and etc. When you think about a darker tone, this episode is right up there. The whole feeding to the Wraith with Sheppard convincing Wallace to sacrifice himself. Very dark moment for Sheppard. The scene with Sheppard and Mckay was very deep. Mckay would sacrifice his life to save his sister. Sheppard did not want to lose his friend in the process. Just very powerful moment. Mckay really shined in this episode and we really see how caring and a compassionate person he really is.

Gotta say the show has become so complexed and dynamic with the decisions they make. This truly is shaping up to be the best season of the series.

Also, to end we see a preview with Weir for next episode! Woo hoo!

wheresmyfroggy
November 30th, 2007, 07:14 PM
Wow. Definitely in my top three of favorite episodes EVER for Atlantis. Only behind Sunday and Mckay and Mrs. Miller.

Never, EVER AGAIN, should there be as long of a break between Martin Q. Gero episodes as there was between Adrift and Miller's Crossing. Can he just right the whole of season five? Pretty please?!

Xicer
November 30th, 2007, 07:15 PM
I have to agree with the fact that Walter has degraded to a character that serves more as comic relief (like Dr. Lee in recent years) which is very unfortunate. I think that scene with Ronon and Walter was definitely the nadir of the whole episode.

Vala_M
November 30th, 2007, 07:18 PM
What a great episode. Much better than the last one with Jeannie. Interesting approach with using the nanites to cure diseases although I think that it's still too soon to be messing with that on Earth. Ronon comes to Earth this time! He did before in "Sunday" but this was his first true Earth experience! I love the "I look dumb" part that Ronon said. And McKay's sister living in Vancouver! This episode exceeded all of my expectations. The Wraith coming to Earth, he's the first Wraith to ever come to Earth, he should feel privileged and he got to feed on a human as well. It's nice to see the SGC again.

Vala,

wheresmyfroggy
November 30th, 2007, 07:18 PM
Oh, and I now despise TIN MAN for all the ads they stamped all over this episode.

Have to agree with you there. If I ever meet this 'tin man' of which they speak, I will strangle him.

FoolishPleasure
November 30th, 2007, 07:18 PM
Maybe I was expecting too much, but I found this to be pretty bad.

The villian was a wuss. A bigger wuss than Keller.

Sheppard talking someone into killing themselves was unforgiveable. I can't imagine Sheppard letting anyone feed themselves to a Wraith, especially after Shep himself knows how painful it is. Totally OOC.

Why in the world wasn't Jeannie taken to Atlantis? Why was Todd brought to Earth? Gawd, the last thing we want is a Wraith knowing where Earth is (and we all know Todd is probably gonna get away at some point) and seeing Earth tech!

I love Ronon and Walter, but that scene with them just made me cringe. Talk about filler.

Big thumbs down, and I mean BIG thumbs down.

Briangate78
November 30th, 2007, 07:19 PM
I'm assuming we can discuss spoilers here.

OH...MY....GOD....

It could easily have been a simplistic kidnap and rescue, even the threat of Jeannie with the nanites, but Sheppard 'offering' up the solution with the kidnapper to make things right... shudder.

Oh, and I now despise TIN MAN for all the ads they stamped all over this episode.


See folks that is a heavily promoted show like Razor. SGA never got that kind of promotion, there is no way, imo.

Anyway, yeah that was a nice twist. Great writing! :)

BTW, if I see one more "Tin Man" ad I am going to scream. :S

jelgate
November 30th, 2007, 07:19 PM
Jelgate's Two Cents
This episode didn't have the same quality as The Seer, that said this was a pretty good episode. I almost passed out where Kaleb thought he heard something and the second he walks to the door two "hired solders" rush in with machine guns. Jeanie blaming Merideth (McKay) for her kidnapping was hilarious. At a bizzarie sick level you can't really blame Henry Wallace for what he did for injectining his daughter with nanities. He did the extreme the save his daughter. Can you really blame him for wanting his only remaining family member to live? First she was dead then Meredith nanites saved her cancer, then they stop her heart, then the natites ressurect her, and finally kill her for good by running out of power. I loved the scene where Barret and Sheppard going through Trust filies and Ronon said he was going to get some food. For a second I thought he was going to rip Walter's head off. Speaking of Ronon I loved seeing him wear a suit. Injecting Jeanie with nanites show the making of disturbed and sick man. On that note I enjoyed the second part of the episode where McKay is trying to find a way to save Jeanie from the nanites. I can't believe that he would resort to bringing a Wraith into the SGC, allthough it was cool to see a Wraith in the SGC. Too bad the Wraith was dyeing of hunger and the Atlantis expedition had to resort human sacrfice. Even though Sheppard convinced Wallace to sacrifice couldn't be considered sucide. In his eyes he might not have anything to live for considering that both his wife and daughter were now dead. I will close with my only complaint about this episode, I would have liked to know why Teyla wasn't mentioned. I realized Racheal Luttrel was pregnant at the time of the episode but why like a reason why Teyla wasn't there.

Quotes
Ronon: When you find someone to point a gun at, let me know.


Jeanie:Your no John Sheppard

Xicer
November 30th, 2007, 07:23 PM
Actually, you'd be a moron if you thought that you couldn't send data over networks securely even the internet. There are such things called encryption.

He sent classified government research through an e-mail over the Internet to his sister...I mean come on an e-mail. It won't matter how much encryption you have there is still a very high risk of interception. I just don't understand why Rodney would make such a dumb mistake like that. Most of the rest of the episode was good, but it was just these little things that bugged me.

technoextreme
November 30th, 2007, 07:23 PM
The villain was a wuss. A bigger wuss than Keller.

Why in the world wasn't Jeannie taken to Atlantis? Why was Todd brought to Earth? Gawd, the last thing we want is a Wraith knowing where Earth is (and we all know Todd is probably gonna get away at some point) and seeing Earth tech!

Well who the hell cares if the villain is a wuss? I don't particularly find big giant bad guys who are unquestionable bad that interesting.
He sent classified government research through an e-mail over the Internet to his sister...I mean come on an e-mail. It won't matter how much encryption you have there is still a very high risk of interception. I just don't understand why Rodney would make such a dumb mistake like that. Most of the rest of the episode was good, but it was just these little things that bugged me.
Except for the fact encryption would work very well. Any interception would be moot. The problem was the fact that they all ready know who McKay and his sister was.

wheresmyfroggy
November 30th, 2007, 07:24 PM
I guess I just don't understand all the complaining about the bad guy being a 'wuss'. Does every bad guy have to be 100% evil, complete with maniacal laughter and a Mr. Burns-esque drumming of the fingers? Personally, I think a 'grey' baddie makes the show more interesting, and allows our characters to show some trepidation.

Would the Mckay's really have helped him as much as they did if he were evil, rather than being motivated by saving his daughter?

jelgate
November 30th, 2007, 07:27 PM
I guess I just don't understand all the complaining about the bad guy being a 'wuss'. Does every bad guy have to be 100% evil, complete with maniacal laughter and a Mr. Burns-esque drumming of the fingers? Personally, I think a 'grey' baddie makes the show more interesting, and allows our characters to show some trepidation.

Would the Mckay's really have helped him as much as they did if he were evil, rather than being motivated by saving his daughter?
The best bad guy is the person who believes he or she is doing the right thing. Like I said in my review the only reason is was acting that way was to save his daught. Remember good and evil isn't black and white. There is a huge area of gray.

Teslan
November 30th, 2007, 07:27 PM
I don't like to bash this show, because it seems to have enough detractors as it is, but I definitely did not like the rest of the episode after the point where Sheppard talked with the guy about all the problems he had caused. Sure, he was a potential murderer, but let him be tried and sentenced after he commited the crime. At that instant, all he could be charged with is attempted murder, something I do not think gets you the death penalty even in the States. There should have been a better way.

But, before that part, I was enjoying the episode. I liked "McKay and Mrs. Miller" a lot, but it was not my favorite episode. The beginning of this one seemed like it could have been pretty similar, but when the bad guy showed up it took a turn that I was not expecting. I had not read all the spoilers for this episode, so I knew nothing about this particular bad guy, but I thought he came off pretty convincingly as a desparate man, who had left his senses and his morals behind in his quest for finding a cure for his daughter. After he injected Jeanie with the nanites (I was hoping the same thing Sweetsong), I realized there was probably no hope for him.

The scenes where McKay was arguing with his sister, were funny bits that I can appreciate, having siblings of my own. Facing some of the greatest dangers in the world would probably not completely prevent us from squabbling a little. And it was nice when he inadvertently compared the loss of his sister to the loss Todd might have felt when his hive ship was lost.

technoextreme
November 30th, 2007, 07:29 PM
I don't like to bash this show, because it seems to have enough detractors as it is, but I definitely did not like the rest of the episode after the point where Sheppard talked with the guy about all the problems he had caused. Sure, he was a potential murderer, but let him be tried and sentenced after he commited the crime. At that instant, all he could be charged with is attempted murder, something I do not think gets you the death penalty even in the States. There should have been a better way.

He all ready killed his daughter. At that instant he was going to die.

the fifth man
November 30th, 2007, 07:30 PM
I guess I just don't understand all the complaining about the bad guy being a 'wuss'. Does every bad guy have to be 100% evil, complete with maniacal laughter and a Mr. Burns-esque drumming of the fingers? Personally, I think a 'grey' baddie makes the show more interesting, and allows our characters to show some trepidation.

Would the Mckay's really have helped him as much as they did if he were evil, rather than being motivated by saving his daughter?

You make a good point (of course by then, he'd injected Rodney's sister too). I didn't mind him not being 100% evil one bit. That gets old after a while anyways.

Overall, I was very pleased with this episode. It had some great moments from Rodney, Ronon, and Sheppard (who had to make a very tough decision).

I too can't wait for next week's episode. The "return" of Dr. Weir.

Sweetsong
November 30th, 2007, 07:31 PM
Even though I appreciated the change of pace, the setting being Earth and the SGC instead of Atlantis and Pegasus, I found myself missing those panoramic breathtaking views of Atlantis. We got one at the very end, and of course I just missed a general Pegasus mission.

I think I found myself wishing for more interaction with the team being on earth than we got. Mckay kidnapped, while Ronan and Sheppard sitting around in an office or cafeteria not doing much.

Btw, who named the wraith Todd?

suse
November 30th, 2007, 07:34 PM
[B][CENTER]Quotes
Ronon: When you find someone to point a gun at, let me know.


Jeanie:Your no John Sheppard

Suse: Thank GOD!

Me lurves me some Ronon Dex. :D

suse

wheresmyfroggy
November 30th, 2007, 07:34 PM
Btw, who named the wraith Todd?

I'm going to take a wild stab and say.... the writers? :D

scififreak23
November 30th, 2007, 07:35 PM
Even though I appreciated the change of pace, the setting being Earth and the SGC instead of Atlantis and Pegasus, I found myself missing those panoramic breathtaking views of Atlantis. We got one at the very end, and of course I just missed a general Pegasus mission.

I think I found myself wishing for more interaction with the team being on earth than we got. Mckay kidnapped, while Ronan and Sheppard sitting around in an office or cafeteria not doing much.

Btw, who named the wraith Todd?

sheppard probably.He named all the other wraiths.

Sue_Jackson
November 30th, 2007, 07:37 PM
Okay.....this was soooooo Desparate Measures (S5/SG-1) with a different twist. :) But....I liked the episode anyway. ;) It was nice seeing Kate again as Jeanie. I just love the chemistry between her and David. They are just so funny together.

It was also great seeing Agent Barret. He is a great character. When he and Rodney went to that door, and Rodney attempted to kick the door down (looking like an ass of course). I bursted out laughing. :D

Ronon on Earth! How cool was that? :D It was just so cool seeing him on Earth....IN civilian clothes. The scene with him and Walter was just the funniest thing. I was like, "Walter!" That was awesome. :D

John Sheppard was wonderful. I loved the scene with him and Rodney where Rodney was asking John to permit him to sacrifice himself for Jeanie. I love how John was just so calm in telling him why he couldn't let him do that. That was a great moment. Kudos to both David and Joe on that scene.

Then, of course John persuading Wallace to sacrifice himself for Rodney's sister was just intense. My jaw dropped at that scene. Then, when seeing the black body bag, I was dumbfounded. I was like...wow John crossed the line....again. But....I guess it was the better of the two evils in order to save Jeanie.

I do have a problem with this episode....and it's a big problem. I was fine with the episode until........

WRAITH.....on.....EARTH????? :eek: Are they insane??? :S This is like a chicken farmer having a fox help raise his chickens! It just does not make sense! What the frak are they gonna do with him now??? They can't just let him go. Cause what's to say he's not gonna brag to his Wraith buddies that he's found Earth? :S Are they gonna kill him? I think they gonna hafta. This does not sit well with me at all. :beckettanime14:


I applaud the brilliant acting of Joe, David, Jason, and Kate on this episode. They did an awesome job on this episode. :)

Jonas
November 30th, 2007, 07:41 PM
anyone else think it was odd that McKay didn't enlist Carter's help? Anywhoo I thought it was an okay episode, but kinda of dull.

the fifth man
November 30th, 2007, 07:42 PM
Okay.....this was soooooo Desparate Measures (S5/SG-1) with a different twist. :) But....I liked the episode anyway. ;) It was nice seeing Kate again as Jeanie. I just love the chemistry between her and David. They are just so funny together.

It was also great seeing Agent Barret. He is a great character. When he and Rodney went to that door, and Rodney attempted to kick the door down (looking like an ass of course). I bursted out laughing. :D

Ronon on Earth! How cool was that? :D It was just so cool seeing him on Earth....IN civilian clothes. The scene with him and Walter was just the funniest thing. I was like, "Walter!" That was awesome. :D

I do have a problem with this episode....and it's a big problem. I was fine with the episode until........

WRAITH.....on.....EARTH????? :eek: Are they insane??? :S This is like a chicken farmer having a fox help raise his chickens! It just does make sense! What the frak are they gonna do with him now??? Cause what's to say he's not gonna brag to his Wraith buddies that he's found Earth? :S Are they gonna kill him? I think they gonna hafta. This does not sit well with me at all. :beckettanime14:

It was indeed nice to see Agent Barret again. I've always liked his character. A very stand-up NID guy.

As for the Wraith on Earth, it had to happen sometime. And it's not like he'd know how to get to Earth. After all, he just stepped through a Stargate. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

prion
November 30th, 2007, 07:44 PM
I don't like to bash this show, because it seems to have enough detractors as it is, but I definitely did not like the rest of the episode after the point where Sheppard talked with the guy about all the problems he had caused. Sure, he was a potential murderer, but let him be tried and sentenced after he commited the crime. At that instant, all he could be charged with is attempted murder, something I do not think gets you the death penalty even in the States. There should have been a better way. .

Wallace was facing two counts of kidnapping, and thosse were probably the less serious charges. For what he did digging up classified security stuff from the US could possibly have gotten him executed. Not sure if it's treason, but the gov't isn't gonna slap him on the wrist. He'd vanish into a dark hole and never be seen again.


The best bad guy is the person who believes he or she is doing the right thing. Like I said in my review the only reason is was acting that way was to save his daught. Remember good and evil isn't black and white. There is a huge area of gray.

Yup.




Btw, who named the wraith Todd?

Alas, Mallozzi dropped this name as a SPOILER in his blog and everybody's been spreading it far and wide, despite the fact that the name has yet to be given on the episode. So by the time Sheppard does decide to call the wraith 'todd,' it will be 'eh, we all knew that.'

garhkal
November 30th, 2007, 07:45 PM
yay... finally got to watch an atlantis ep on the first running, rather than later on in the night..


Definitely my favorite of the season. So good. My heart skipped a beat seeing a Wraith in the SGC. And the preview for next week... delicious.

That it was... though i wonder if he knew he was on earth.


Something even harder to swallow was seeing Shepard talk the guy into sacrifcing himself to the wraith so it could continue it's work to save Jeannie, I suppose it was the easy way out for the writers to get the wraith a home cooked meal...

That is true, but it did show the lengths to which shepard would go to to save rodney..


This was one of the best episodes of the season! The acting was fantastic by everyone in it. Man i gotta tell you, that scene where sheppard talked that guy into killing himself was very unnerving. Joe did a fantastic job with that scene! I felt bad for henry wallace.He was just trying to save his daughter's life. Ronan was great in this episode, he looked so funny in earth clothes! Loved the fact that mckay was willing to be fed on to save his sister. The rodney/todd scenes were wonderful.I loved how rodney talked him into helping him save his sister. The end scene with mckay and sheppard was great also.The two have come along way since the first episode.

agreed. Of all the Rodney and Shep building eps this has to be at the top of the list for the best.. And i always knew Rodney had a sacrifical side to him, but willing to give his life to save his sister.. man that was awesome. That shows that behind all his ranting and raving, there is a caring person.


I have to agree with the fact that Walter has degraded to a character that serves more as comic relief (like Dr. Lee in recent years) which is very unfortunate. I think that scene with Ronon and Walter was definitely the nadir of the whole episode.

Again, agreed. Slowly he has turned from a likable second string character into someone who almost makes me want to turn the channel. His performance in tonights ep made me go 'WTF over".. Why could they not have had anyone else from the SGC show up like landry, the doctor or heck even lee. I would not have even minded if they had siler... At least he is not comic relief.


I can't believe that he would resort to bringing a Wraith into the SGC, allthough it was cool to see a Wraith in the SGC

I could, though i did wonder why they did not stun him and bring him in that way so he did not know where he was..


I guess I just don't understand all the complaining about the bad guy being a 'wuss'. Does every bad guy have to be 100% evil, complete with maniacal laughter and a Mr. Burns-esque drumming of the fingers? Personally, I think a 'grey' baddie makes the show more interesting, and allows our characters to show some trepidation


Same here. It reminded me of that ep where sam got kidnapped so that one rich guy could get her to help on the tracer for Naquida for the symbiots..


And it was nice when he inadvertently compared the loss of his sister to the loss Todd might have felt when his hive ship was lost.

I almost thought i saw 'todd' show a bit of sadness at that comment. Though i think Rodney did it willfully, not accidently.

Ruffles
November 30th, 2007, 07:46 PM
Wow. That was one of the best eps I've seen. Wonderful character ep with some truly funny bits as well as stunning dramatic moments.

Good stuff:
* the opening scene with the scientists. I love Zelenka more each time. "I am losing the will to live" and "Whatever you have to tell yourself" as he closes his laptop and practically runs from the room (followed closely by all the others).
* the little hints that Rodney and Jeannie keep in touch
* the cute family time with the cookie and the "He's stuck again" email was a great setup for the frightening kidnap scene
* McKay's attempt to kick down the (unlocked) door - he is so adorkable
* Rodney's genuine reaction at seeing his sister "Thank God you're alive" and a hug. He's come so far. In fact, every bit with his sister was perfect - their sibling rivalry complete with competitiveness and insults, his immediate thought of her safety when the girl dies (the first time), his willingness to sacrifice himself for her (more on that later), telling her he loves her and buying the car (lovely Prius promo there)
* Ronon on Earth - wearing the suit "I'd stand out no matter what I'm wearing", going to find food "Let me know when there's something to shoot" and his reaction to Walter and then Sheppard in the mess hall
* Sheppard playing with Madison, slogging through corporate documents, wearing that suit (oops, wrong thread), but most of all talking Wallace into sacrificing himself. I half expected John to offer himself to the Wraith (I wonder if he would have accepted....)
* I LOVE that Rodney had continued to work on the programming for Elizabeth's nanites even after she was gone. He's a good man underneath all that bluster.
* a Wraith on Earth!
* Jeannie questioning Rodney about Katie. As a girl with a brother, I totally understand that. And her reasoning: a nice girl that would put up with all his little flaws. "Let's face it, you're no John Sheppard" Bwahahaha!
* Rodney asking John at the end if they are about even in looks. "Who's been lying to you?" *wipes tears*
* having the Wraith faint from hunger. That answers a few questions.
* Wallace's sacrifice - he'd lost everything: his wife, his daughter, his freedom. But still, it would be hard to willingly let a Wraith feed.
* the nanites "erasing" the daughter's mind in their healing process. Really drove home the idea of them being machines simply following their programming
* Rodney trying to break into the lab. While unsaid, he had to be going in to offer himself to the Wraith.

Questions/Quibbles:
* Did they blindfold the Wraith before dialing the gate from Midway to Earth? Did they make him turn his back?
* Did they sedate Wallace or was he awake for the feeding?
* Will anyone tell Jeannie about the Wraith and what it took to save her?
* I guess there wasn't time in this ep to have Teyla reveal her pregnancy, but I would have liked a mention about where she was when the rest of the team got to the SGC.

The highlight for me has to be the scene with Rodney volunteering to die for his sister and John refusing to let him. Brilliantly done by JF and DH. That might be my favorite SGA scene EVER. Previous scenes have reflected moments of friendship between the two (Tao, Doppleganger, etc), but this scene shows the strength of that friendship. John can't lose another friend, and Rodney can't lose his sister. In a way, John sacrifices a bit of himself (reflected in his reaction back on Atlantis when Rodney questions him about Wallace) by convincing another man to give his life.

This ep really shows the core of who Rodney is: he has seen a Wraith feed, knows exactly what will happen, and is still willing to do it. I am fascinated that he goes to talk to Sheppard about it instead of just letting the Wraith feed. Is it to ensure the Wraith won't be killed after Rodney dies, allowing him to complete the programming? Is it to say goodbye to John?

All in all - one great episode.

Ltcolshepjumper
November 30th, 2007, 07:48 PM
I don't like to bash this show, because it seems to have enough detractors as it is, but I definitely did not like the rest of the episode after the point where Sheppard talked with the guy about all the problems he had caused. Sure, he was a potential murderer, but let him be tried and sentenced after he commited the crime. At that instant, all he could be charged with is attempted murder, something I do not think gets you the death penalty even in the States. There should have been a better way.

But, before that part, I was enjoying the episode. I liked "McKay and Mrs. Miller" a lot, but it was not my favorite episode. The beginning of this one seemed like it could have been pretty similar, but when the bad guy showed up it took a turn that I was not expecting. I had not read all the spoilers for this episode, so I knew nothing about this particular bad guy, but I thought he came off pretty convincingly as a desparate man, who had left his senses and his morals behind in his quest for finding a cure for his daughter. After he injected Jeanie with the nanites (I was hoping the same thing Sweetsong), I realized there was probably no hope for him.

The scenes where McKay was arguing with his sister, were funny bits that I can appreciate, having siblings of my own. Facing some of the greatest dangers in the world would probably not completely prevent us from squabbling a little. And it was nice when he inadvertently compared the loss of his sister to the loss Todd might have felt when his hive ship was lost.

I also thought Shep came off as malicious in his 'persuading' Wallace to 'sacrifice' himself. It really did seem as though he was trying to pressure Wallace by pouring on the guilt. I don't get why Todd had to take Wallace's life force all at once. Why couldn't he have taken some, then regenerated him some, and then taken some more?

scififreak23
November 30th, 2007, 07:55 PM
I also thought Shep came off as malicious in his 'persuading' Wallace to 'sacrifice' himself. It really did seem as though he was trying to pressure Wallace by pouring on the guilt.
I don't get why Todd had to take Wallace's life force all at once. Why couldn't he have taken some, then regenerated him some, and then taken some more?

Becuase wallace probably wanted to die.He wife was dead, his daughter was dead, and if he didn't do this another woman would die and that would have made him a murderer. Wallace wasn't a bad guy i don't think he could have handle the fact that he murdered someone. Sheppard didn't seem malicious to me. Sheppard already stated in sadeta that he would do anything to protect his teammates.In doppeldanger, we saw that sheppard's worst fear is being responsible for a teammates death.He blames himself for what happend to kate and he wasn't even responsible for that.If he gave rodney permission to be fed on that would have been way, way out of character for him.

FoolishPleasure
November 30th, 2007, 07:56 PM
The highlight for me has to be the scene with Rodney volunteering to die for his sister and John refusing to let him.

I didn't think Rodney was offering to "die" for his sister. We all know the Wraith can take bits and pieces, so I figured Rodney was offering some years off his life - go old, revive the Wraith, then they both continue working on the problem. That's how I took it anyway.


John sacrifices a bit of himself (reflected in his reaction back on Atlantis when Rodney questions him about Wallace) by convincing another man to give his life.

Shep laid on the guilt and drove an already depressed man into a suicidal man. I would have preferred to have Wallace offer his vegetative daughter to the Wraith, then take his own life, but Shep pushing him like that was downright cold, and I didn't care for it.

Ruffles
November 30th, 2007, 07:59 PM
I don't like to bash this show, because it seems to have enough detractors as it is, but I definitely did not like the rest of the episode after the point where Sheppard talked with the guy about all the problems he had caused. Sure, he was a potential murderer, but let him be tried and sentenced after he commited the crime. At that instant, all he could be charged with is attempted murder, something I do not think gets you the death penalty even in the States. There should have been a better way.

You think they are going to put a man that knows about the SGC, the stargate, and the Wraith on trial? He would find himself in a prison cell in the bowels on the SGC, never to see the light of day again.


Alas, Mallozzi dropped this name as a SPOILER in his blog and everybody's been spreading it far and wide, despite the fact that the name has yet to be given on the episode. So by the time Sheppard does decide to call the wraith 'todd,' it will be 'eh, we all knew that.'

I don't think Sheppard will name him. I think JM called him "Todd" just to have a reference for this particular Wraith. If Shep was going to name him, he would have done so already.


I also thought Shep came off as malicious in his 'persuading' Wallace to 'sacrifice' himself. It really did seem as though he was trying to pressure Wallace by pouring on the guilt. I don't get why Todd had to take Wallace's life force all at once. Why couldn't he have taken some, then regenerated him some, and then taken some more?

The reason he could regenerate Sheppard in Common Ground was because he fed off the Genii soldiers. I don't think feeding and then giving it back would help the Wraith (kinda like binging and purging).

prion
November 30th, 2007, 08:01 PM
I didn't think Rodney was offering to "die" for his sister. We all know the Wraith can take bits and pieces, so I figured Rodney was offering some years off his life - go old, revive the Wraith, then they both continue working on the problem. That's how I took it anyway.

Shep laid on the guilt and drove an already depressed man into a suicidal man. I would have preferred to have Wallace offer his vegetative daughter to the Wraith, then take his own life, but Shep pushing him like that was downright cold, and I didn't care for it.

McKay would have been aged to a senior citizen, and there's no guarantee that Alzheimer's wouldn't follow. It's a dreadful thing to say, but McKay is a valuable commodity to the SGC, whereas Jeannie is not.

Er, the vegetative daughter had died so that was not an option.

technoextreme
November 30th, 2007, 08:01 PM
Wallace was facing two counts of kidnapping, and thosse were probably the less serious charges. For what he did digging up classified security stuff from the US could possibly have gotten him executed. Not sure if it's treason, but the gov't isn't gonna slap him on the wrist. He'd vanish into a dark hole and never be seen again.
And murder. Don't forget the count of murder. I don't know why people think what he did to his daughter wouldn't be classified as murder even though he expected the opposite effect.

Xicer
November 30th, 2007, 08:03 PM
Heh I was really feeling for Wallace during that scene with him and Sheppard. The guy lost his whole family (wife, daughter) and was probably on his way to death row (not for kidnapping, but for acquiring government secrets) and when Sheppard started throwing our picture of Jeannies husband and daughter, I seriously wanted to hit him. What Sheppard did there was just...ugh. Yeah he was trying to save a life, but damn. Felt a bit OOC but definitely unexpected.

prion
November 30th, 2007, 08:03 PM
The reason he could regenerate Sheppard in Common Ground was because he fed off the Genii soldiers. I don't think feeding and then giving it back would help the Wraith (kinda like binging and purging).

Hmm, a bulemic wraith. Nope, don't see that....

Ruffles
November 30th, 2007, 08:04 PM
I didn't think Rodney was offering to "die" for his sister. We all know the Wraith can take bits and pieces, so I figured Rodney was offering some years off his life - go old, revive the Wraith, then they both continue working on the problem. That's how I took it anyway.

John told Rodney that the Wraith would kill him, and Rodney responded with "Yes, I know." If the Wraith could have survived with just a little feeding, then Wallace wouldn't be dead.


Shep laid on the guilt and drove an already depressed man into a suicidal man. I would have preferred to have Wallace offer his vegetative daughter to the Wraith, then take his own life, but Shep pushing him like that was downright cold, and I didn't care for it.

The girl was already dead. Rodney told John that she had died. The nanites ran out of power while working on her arteries (I think). She bled out.

Briangate78
November 30th, 2007, 08:06 PM
Heh I was really feeling for Wallace during that scene with him and Sheppard. The guy lost his whole family (wife, daughter) and was probably on his way to death row (not for kidnapping, but for acquiring government secrets) and when Sheppard started throwing our picture of Jeannies husband and daughter, I seriously wanted to hit him. Yeah he was trying to save a life, but damn. Felt a bit OOC but definitely unexpected.

I think it was a hard decision for Sheppard. He did not want to see his friend's sister die. Remember it was Wallace who infected her with the nanites. So if she died it would of been murder on his part.

Sheppard I think gave him a way out. To make him do the right thing. :) Still Sheppard probably felt guilty for how it went down.

prion
November 30th, 2007, 08:08 PM
Heh I was really feeling for Wallace during that scene with him and Sheppard. The guy lost his whole family (wife, daughter) and was probably on his way to death row (not for kidnapping, but for acquiring government secrets) and when Sheppard started throwing our picture of Jeannies husband and daughter, I seriously wanted to hit him. Yeah he was trying to save a life, but damn. Felt a bit OOC but definitely unexpected.


In an ironic twist, the shoe was on the other foot. Wallace did what he did to save his daughter; Sheppard did what he felt he had to do to save his friend.

And in reality, Wallace was a dead man. If he refused, which I'm sure he could have, Jeannie would have died and he would have been charged with premeditated murder. A capital offense. I'm sure Wallace realized this too and it's better his death actually save a life, than be totally meaningless.

Briangate78
November 30th, 2007, 08:09 PM
In an ironic twist, the shoe was on the other foot. Wallace did what he did to save his daughter; Sheppard did what he felt he had to do to save his friend.

And in reality, Wallace was a dead man. If he refused, which I'm sure he could have, Jeannie would have died and he would have been charged with premeditated murder. A capital offense. I'm sure Wallace realized this too and it's better his death actually save a life, than be totally meaningless.

Hee hee read above what I wrote. :p

Xicer
November 30th, 2007, 08:11 PM
Yeah I understand that Wallace didn't have much a future left, and I think he knew that too. I just thought that bit with the pictures was too much. I'm pretty sure he had his mind made up already.

GateLadyM
November 30th, 2007, 08:11 PM
The girl was already dead. Rodney told John that she had died. The nanites ran out of power while working on her arteries (I think). She bled out.

I like the idea of feeding vegetable girl to Todd. The line about her dying was sort stuck in there, like TPTB knew they had to get rid of her somehow, but didn't know how to do it, so. . ."she died". She could have died saving the sister, but no, its just mentioned that she died. Plain old dead-end writing.

jelgate
November 30th, 2007, 08:14 PM
In an ironic twist, the shoe was on the other foot. Wallace did what he did to save his daughter; Sheppard did what he felt he had to do to save his friend.

And in reality, Wallace was a dead man. If he refused, which I'm sure he could have, Jeannie would have died and he would have been charged with premeditated murder. A capital offense. I'm sure Wallace realized this too and it's better his death actually save a life, than be totally meaningless.

It would depend on the country who had jursidiction considering that Canada doesn't have a death penalty

prion
November 30th, 2007, 08:14 PM
I like the idea of feeding vegetable girl to Todd. The line about her dying was sort stuck in there, like TPTB knew they had to get rid of her somehow, but didn't know how to do it, so. . ."she died". She could have died saving the sister, but no, its just mentioned that she died. Plain old dead-end writing.

well, unfortunately people just tend to up and die, and it also shows that the nanites sure aren't ready for release at your local Wal-mart...

Teslan
November 30th, 2007, 08:15 PM
I don't really care that Sheppard did it, because as scififreak23 pointed out it was totally in character. Everyone knows he would be unwillingly to let Rodney die. But to just let it go at that, and have them go off laughing at the end I felt was just a little too cavalier. They could of had something were someone made Shepard stop and think about what he had done. The guy was depressed about his daughter's death, and all the other crimes he had commited and Shepard kind of took advantage of that. He could have still in the end have felt he made the right decision, and I would have been fine with that, but to limit the criticism to that tiny little bit of discussion that ended with Rodney thanking him was too much for me. I can't say I am the biggest Daniel fan, but he brought a little thing called a conscienceto SG-1, something that only Teyla can really come close too. And I don't think either of them would have approved Shep's actions this time.

Someone pointed out that Wallace was already a deadman, but that still does not give Shepard the right to suggest suicide. If Wallace had offered his life up himself without prompting and Shepard gone ahead with it, that would have been the best way of going about it.

And I don't know if this counts as a spoiler or not but just to be on the safe side: Maybe he was joking but, didn't Mallozzi say on his blog that the Wraith could eat animals (thus their sharp teeth), they just liked humans better? Why didn't someone go to McDonald's and pick him up a hamburger?

As far as taking a little and giving it back:Isn't that similar to a human regurgitating? Can he get any nutrients out of that? When he did it with Shepard he had feed on quite a few Genii soldiers already. And the only other time we have seen it happen is in 'Travelers' and that time I don't think Shepard cared whether or not the Wraith went away hungry

prion
November 30th, 2007, 08:16 PM
It would depend on the country who had jursidiction considering that Canada doesn't have a death penalty

Hmm, true, but he stole US government secrets. That alone has dug his grave (virtual or otherwise). In some respects it was aa foregone conclusion that if the wraith needed a snack, it wasn't going to be any one we knew, and Wallace was basically toast, and needed to make amends. Sure hope they gave him a percacet or six before the feeding.

Anlaria Onyx
November 30th, 2007, 08:18 PM
My review, spoiler city.

I LOVED this episode! One of my favorites! My highlights were Radek at the beginning "I can't wait for you to have an epiphany Rodney, I'm loosing the will to live." I haven't laughed so hard in WEEKS! And the lunch between Ronon and Harriman. Sadly, I was drinking and it spewed... everywhere.

The scenes between John and Rodney and John and Wallance were pretty intense.

All in all this has to be my favorite episode to far. Tabula Rasa and Doppleganger close second and third. I can't say I'm all that excited to see Weir again, but BAMBR does look REALLY good.

technoextreme
November 30th, 2007, 08:22 PM
It would depend on the country who had jursidiction considering that Canada doesn't have a death penalty
Well you have to realize also that it might have been in the United States. All we know is that they flew somewhere to get to the medical facility.

Jackie
November 30th, 2007, 08:22 PM
Well, that was depressing. Shep sank to a new level for me. I no longer consider him a "hero" in the series. Sorry but he crossed the moral line with "offering up the options" bull crap. (Of course I shouldn't be surprised the writers did that--they had Thor blow himself up.)

I watched MASH right before this ep--I guess moral stories died out when MASH went of the air or when RDA left the SG-1 series.

Wallace was not very convincing as a desperate father--I've seen many people die of cancer and I just found him hard to believe. I also know of people who have lost "everything"--kids, house, job and they are still alive. Sorry, don't believe that whole--"he lost it all" bull crap. It was nothing more than Shep taking advantage of a grieving and desperate man.

Shep must have replaced by a replicator--just way occ.

No real moral to the story--at all.

Was nice to see the SGC but Barrett being the main contact was a little off the wall--wasn't he considered a risk at the end of SG-1 becuase he was compromised?

Anyways, I like the banter between jenny and rodney.

prion
November 30th, 2007, 08:23 PM
I don't really care that Sheppard did it, because as scififreak23 pointed out it was totally in character. Everyone knows he would be unwillingly to let Rodney die. But to just let it go at that, and have them go off laughing at the end I felt was just a little too cavalier. They could of had something were someone made Shepard stop and think about what he had done. The guy was depressed about his daughter's death, and all the other crimes he had commited and Shepard kind of took advantage of that. He could have still in the end have felt he made the right decision, and I would have been fine with that, but to limit the criticism to that tiny little bit of discussion that ended with Rodney thanking him was too much for me. I can't say I am the biggest Daniel fan, but he brought a little thing called a conscienceto SG-1, something that only Teyla can really come close too. And I don't think either of them would have approved Shep's actions this time.

Someone pointed out that Wallace was already a deadman, but that still does not give Shepard the right to suggest suicide. If Wallace had offered his life up himself without prompting and Shepard gone ahead with it, that would have been the best way of going about it.

And I don't know if this counts as a spoiler or not but just to be on the safe side: Maybe he was joking but, didn't Mallozzi say on his blog that the Wraith could eat animals (thus their sharp teeth), they just liked humans better? Why didn't someone go to McDonald's and pick him up a hamburger?



It was established in an earlier season that wraith can't dine on animals. Humans are their only food source, so Mallozzi was probably joking. We have to go with what's shown on the series.

I think Wallace offering himself up would have been a convenient cop-out. by Sheppard 'presenting' the situation, it shows the tough choice he made (and I'm sure someone above him as Wallace's demise is gonna require a government cover-up for sure). Ethically, yes, the situation was dreadful, and that's the 'dark' we've been promised for season 4. If nothing else, it opens up the boards for some interesting discussion.

wheresmyfroggy
November 30th, 2007, 08:27 PM
well, unfortunately people just tend to up and die, and it also shows that the nanites sure aren't ready for release at your local Wal-mart...

As a proud Target employee, I am offended by this statement.

technoextreme
November 30th, 2007, 08:28 PM
Wallace was not very convincing as a desperate father--I've seen many people die of cancer and I just found him hard to believe. I also know of people who have lost "everything"--kids, house, job and they are still alive. Sorry, don't believe that whole--"he lost it all" bull crap. It was nothing more than Shep taking advantage of a grieving and desperate man.

{Mod Snip} He murder his daughter. I don't quite understand why people don't realize this. It wasn't this simple naive little act that this man did. That's why Sheppard told him that his daughter died. It went from being some lesser crime that would still land you in jail to "your a dead man".

wm_1987
November 30th, 2007, 08:30 PM
Finally! John does something truly interesting and defining. About time. Granted we always knew he cared about his friends but its nice to actually see how far he'd go and what lines he'd cross when it doesn't involve the black and white issues of shoot or be shot.

I agree, it was interesting to see what John would do for his "family" (in 'Sateda' how he described the team to Teyla).


"And physically..."

"What?"

"Well... you're no John Sheppard"

The best line of the night. I really loved it.

Erised
November 30th, 2007, 08:30 PM
Uh, I think someone needs to get over SG-1.
This was SUCH a bad episode and mostly because it was based on Earth! This is Atlantis! I didn't think this show could get any worse, but it did!!!

ColCaldwell
November 30th, 2007, 08:31 PM
Great episode, loved the character drama with Wallace going the way he did with to save his daughter. Seeing the SGC, Walter, and Agent Barrett was a bonus.

GateLadyM
November 30th, 2007, 08:31 PM
Was nice to see the SGC but Barrett being the main contact was a little off the wall--wasn't he considered a risk at the end of SG-1 becuase he was compromised?

Anyways, I like the banter between jenny and rodney.

Yeah, its been awhile, but wasn't Barrett under Ba'al's control last we saw him? Wasn't he carted off to jail or something like that?

Plus, didn't sis live in Canada? Why was Barrett there with our "heroes"? They wouldn't have had jurisdiction in a Canadian kidnapping because no one knew whether or not this was related to Rodney's emails.

Ah yes, emails. Yes, let's send top secret emails to sissy's home laptop which is left open on the kitchen sink for hubby to see and for baby niece to possibly play games on. :rolleyes:

Wilson3Girl
November 30th, 2007, 08:32 PM
Wow. Wonderful episode! Two thumbs up!

I've re-wound the Rodney-Shep scenes a dozen or so times already.
Kudos to Mr. Hewlett and Mr. Flanigan, as they did some incredible
angsty acting this evening. The Rodney asking permission to let the
wraith feed off of him scene was fantastic. The desperation in Rodney's voice and eyes---the look of inner turmoil on John's face over possibly losing another person close to him----I think it shows a real familiarity and trust between the actors----great stuff! Sniff.

I loved the Rodney-Jeannie scenes too. Like someone else already mentioned, I love that there's hints that they've kept in contact.

Other stuff I liked:
Shep keeping an eye on Madison while Rodney updates Caleb in the kitchen on what's going on----the actor who plays Caleb was very good---nice to see him again.
Walter shouting "BINGO!" and Ronon jumping up like a Jack-In-The-Box to escape from his ramblings the second Shep entered the cafeteria.
Zelenka! As always, very entertaining.

Favorite line:
Rodney: "Hey, you and I are about even in the looks department aren't we?"
John: "Who's been lying to you?"


Wilson3Girl

ColCaldwell
November 30th, 2007, 08:33 PM
Uh, I think someone needs to get over SG-1.
This was SUCH a bad episode and mostly because it was based on Earth! This is Atlantis! I didn't think this show could get any worse, but it did!!!

Get over it, this was a great episode, it's not like we see the SGC every day.

ColCaldwell
November 30th, 2007, 08:35 PM
Yeah, its been awhile, but wasn't Barrett under Ba'al's control last we saw him? Wasn't he carted off to jail or something like that?

Plus, didn't sis live in Canada? Why was Barrett there with our "heroes"? They wouldn't have had jurisdiction in a Canadian kidnapping because no one knew whether or not this was related to Rodney's emails.

Ah yes, emails. Yes, let's send top secret emails to sissy's home laptop which is left open on the kitchen sink for hubby to see and for baby niece to possibly play games on. :rolleyes:

Obviously someone hasnt been watching.

technoextreme
November 30th, 2007, 08:35 PM
Ah yes, emails. Yes, let's send top secret emails to sissy's home laptop which is left open on the kitchen sink for hubby to see and for baby niece to possibly play games on.
Hubby knew about Atlantis.
Plus, didn't sis live in Canada? Why was Barrett there with our "heroes"? They wouldn't have had jurisdiction in a Canadian kidnapping because no one knew whether or not this was related to Rodney's emails.It happens plenty of times with the United States. Those incidents don't involve secret alien technology capable of transporting people across galaxies (As far as I know).

Lord batchi ball
November 30th, 2007, 08:36 PM
So far this was the best episode of the season and maybe in the series. It had suspense from the beginning to the end. Instead of changing the channel during the break I did'nt because I did not want to miss anything.

The episode was great because it added to the on-going plot and it was dramtic.

Ronan in a sport coat, ever thought I'd see the day. but he still had jeans on.

When the kidnapper walked in and introduced himself, I thought he said he was the prez of TNT, and I was like thats not Ted Turner, whats going on then Rodney said DNT and then I got it.

FoolishPleasure
November 30th, 2007, 08:37 PM
Get over it, this was a great episode, it's not like we see the SGC every day.

She was right. The SGC is not a part of SGA, and SG1 characters really don't fit with SGA folks. Its just another murky way for TPTB to continue to merge two shows into one, ruining both of them in the process.

Jackie
November 30th, 2007, 08:37 PM
Yeah, its been awhile, but wasn't Barrett under Ba'al's control last we saw him? Wasn't he carted off to jail or something like that?

Plus, didn't sis live in Canada? Why was Barrett there with our "heroes"? They wouldn't have had jurisdiction in a Canadian kidnapping because no one knew whether or not this was related to Rodney's emails.

Ah yes, emails. Yes, let's send top secret emails to sissy's home laptop which is left open on the kitchen sink for hubby to see and for baby niece to possibly play games on. :rolleyes:

Does the NID even have a jurisdiction? I was under the impression that were pretty much a rogue outfit anyways. Barret just made no sense to me. maybe woosley would have been a better choice.

I don't remember what became of Barrett but I seem to recall he was brainwashed or something.

Traveler Enroute1
November 30th, 2007, 08:37 PM
I think it was a hard decision for Sheppard. He did not want to see his friend's sister die. Remember it was Wallace who infected her with the nanites. So if she died it would of been murder on his part.

Sheppard I think gave him a way out. To make him do the right thing. :) Still Sheppard probably felt guilty for how it went down.

I definitely agree that Sheppard didn't do this lightly. He knows what it's like to be fed on, after all. When Rodney came to speak with him after, I noted the little moment of awkwardness as if he didn't want to be thanked for his action. I think it's going to come back and bite him somehow; it was one of those profoundly helpful acts that a good person will have to pay for, unfortunately. (As in "no good deed goes unpunished," esp in Stargate Atlantis-land.)

Just sayin', a good ep with great performances all around. Well, poor Malcom hits the deck again! :o

Briangate78
November 30th, 2007, 08:38 PM
Well, that was depressing. Shep sank to a new level for me. I no longer consider him a "hero" in the series. Sorry but he crossed the moral line with "offering up the options" bull crap. (Of course I shouldn't be surprised the writers did that--they had Thor blow himself up.)

I watched MASH right before this ep--I guess moral stories died out when MASH went of the air or when RDA left the SG-1 series.

Wallace was not very convincing as a desperate father--I've seen many people die of cancer and I just found him hard to believe. I also know of people who have lost "everything"--kids, house, job and they are still alive. Sorry, don't believe that whole--"he lost it all" bull crap. It was nothing more than Shep taking advantage of a grieving and desperate man.

Shep must have replaced by a replicator--just way occ.

No real moral to the story--at all.


Wallace would of been convicted of Murder if he let Mckay's sister die. Sheppard could not let Rodney sacrifice himself. Sheppard basically gave Wallace a way to redeem himself and set things right. Both his Wife and Daughter were dead, well his Daughter was brain dead. He would be going to jail the rest of his life. I see it as Sheppard giving him a way out. Sheppard felt upset about what he did. The last scene with him in his quarters says it all. Sheppard is not a bad person or lacks compassion. He did the right thing.

Ace
November 30th, 2007, 08:39 PM
Why not just put Jeannie in the Antarctica cryo pod thing? That would essentially give them all the time in the world to figure out the situation... in any case it would have meant that they didn't need to bring the Wraith to Earth or feed him for that matter. Not that I mind that he was feed...

I just couldn't figure out why they didn't put her in the pod... they had the Daedalus it wouldn't have taken more than a second to do. Just beam her directly in as they were going to do with Jackson.

Overall it wasn't a bad episode... These types of episodes are never my favorites but I knew that going in and still liked it. Heck... I like all Stargate episodes escape Bane & Emancipation.

I did miss the trailer for next week as my roommate decided to walk in just at that moment... luckily I recorded it on my DVDR so I'll have to rewatch that part.

All in all I'd give it a 7 out of 10

Ace

Briangate78
November 30th, 2007, 08:39 PM
I definitely agree that Sheppard didn't do this lightly. He knows what it's like to be fed on, after all. When Rodney came to speak with him after, I noted the little moment of awkwardness as if he didn't want to be thanked for his action. I think it's going to come back and bite him somehow; it was one of those profoundly helpful acts that a good person will have to pay for, unfortunately. (As in "no good deed goes unpunished," esp in Stargate Atlantis-land.)

Just sayin', a good ep with great performances all around. Well, poor Malcom hits the deck again! :o

That scene was so powerful between Mckay and Sheppard. I cannot understand people thinking Sheppard would not have done what he did. This just shows how much Darker the show has gotten. I like it, and was ready for eps like this.

Anlaria Onyx
November 30th, 2007, 08:39 PM
Uh, I think someone needs to get over SG-1.
This was SUCH a bad episode and mostly because it was based on Earth! This is Atlantis! I didn't think this show could get any worse, but it did!!!

That's a little unfair. They are an Earth based mission. Because they work on Atlantis their now not allowed to go to Earth? I like to see and Earth based episode every now and then. It is after all were it all began.

Wilson3Girl
November 30th, 2007, 08:39 PM
I think Wallace offering himself up would have been a convenient cop-out. by Sheppard 'presenting' the situation, it shows the tough choice he made (and I'm sure someone above him as Wallace's demise is gonna require a government cover-up for sure). Ethically, yes, the situation was dreadful, and that's the 'dark' we've been promised for season 4. If nothing else, it opens up the boards for some interesting discussion.

I agree. We've seen John have to make tough calls before. He wasn't happy about doing it. The little lighthearted scene with Rodney and Shep at the end wasn't about Shep celebrating that Wallace died, its just what Shep and McKay do---they joke around, even during crappy times---they're not going to sit around and talk about their feelings and re-hash the agonizing events of the day. John did say, "I don't want to talk about it." He's indicated that he was not thrilled with what he had to do, but he did it because he had to and now he wants to get past it and move on. If he sat around sulking about every tough decision he had to make, he wouldn't have time for anything else......like defending Atlantis against the Wraith and the Replicators.....


Wilson3Girl

jelgate
November 30th, 2007, 08:41 PM
She was right. The SGC is not a part of SGA, and SG1 characters really don't fit with SGA folks. Its just another murky way for TPTB to continue to merge two shows into one, ruining both of them in the process.
Are we a little parnoid. Sheppard,Carter, and McKay have connections back on Earth. I loved seeing Ronon trying to assimilate Earth culture. Reminds me of early SG-1 when Teal'c was learning about Earth. I'm trying to see how SGA is getting runined
*thinks for a minute*
Nope don't see it

Teslan
November 30th, 2007, 08:43 PM
You're probably right about Mallozzi joking, because now that you mention it I think I do recall that being mentioned, though I don't remember which episode, and I don't want to go through all the transcripts.

But looking back at the episode "Poisioning the Well", and how the Shepard character was almost eager to use the Wraith known as 'Steve' as a lab rat it does not surprise me. But Weir was there to caution him that time, and its funny that while I wasn't really a fan of her either when she was on the show, I am starting to think it was a bad idea of getting rid of her, without at least putting someone else on the show to ask the tough questions.

Tough choices are good. I like them being presented in the media, particularly in scifi where they usually like to add a twist. But I also like it when there are consequences. The reason i have always liked this show is because they have always had to deal with concrete consequences. I liked SG-1 (up until the later seasons) at least as much as Atlantis, but I felt they always had that kind of "wrap it up in an hour", feeling. It was kind of lacking when it came to getting the characters dirty, which was fine for its more 'Star Trek' like atmosphere.

But ever since the first episode of Atlantis, it has been about people questioning what they are doing. They woke up the Wraith not too long after they arrived, causing massive panic for the galaxy's native inhabitants. But it was a mistake. Same thing for the Replicators. Rodney going over it in his head two weeks ago, made it clear that their mistakes do haunt them. Same with Michael. And I felt this mistake was just kind of passed over, which is somewhat unfortunate.

technoextreme
November 30th, 2007, 08:44 PM
Wallace would of been convicted of Murder if he let Mckay's sister die. Sheppard could not let Rodney sacrifice himself. Sheppard basically gave Wallace a way to redeem himself and set things right. Both his Wife and Daughter were dead, well his Daughter was brain dead.
Actually his daughter was dead at that point.
You're probably right about Mallozzi joking, because now that you mention it I think I do recall that being mentioned, though I don't remember which episode, and I don't want to go through all the transcripts.
Yes. The planet where the prisoners were being fed to the wraith to save the population at large. The wraith can eat food. It doesn't do anything but they can eat food.

FoolishPleasure
November 30th, 2007, 08:44 PM
Hubby knew about Atlantis.It happens plenty of times with the United States. Those incidents don't involve secret alien technology capable of transporting people across galaxies (As far as I know).

US authorities go to Canada to investigate kidnappings all the time? At the beginning, no one had any idea this crime involved SGC/US military secrets.

As for Barrett - we last saw him in "Insiders" (season 10) and others were right:

Deciding Baal's plan worked only because of Barrett, they question the agent, thinking (and soon confirming) he has been brainwashed. He is taken into custody.

Hmmm. Seems our writers forgot about that one. ;)

ColCaldwell
November 30th, 2007, 08:47 PM
US authorities go to Canada to investigate kidnappings all the time? At the beginning, no one had any idea this crime involved SGC/US military secrets.

As for Barrett - we last saw him in "Insiders" (season 10) and others were right:

Deciding Baal's plan worked only because of Barrett, they question the agent, thinking (and soon confirming) he has been brainwashed. He is taken into custody.

Hmmm. Seems our writers forgot about that one. ;)

I cannot remember the episode, but he was back after he went through some sort of reconditioning in a season 10 episode.

smushybird
November 30th, 2007, 08:47 PM
I just find it so hard to believe, that a man who wanted to save his daughter would risk the life of somebody else with the belief that these two strangers could make his daughter well again.

Something even harder to swallow was seeing Shepard talk the guy into sacrifcing himself to the wraith so it could continue it's work to save Jeannie, I suppose it was the easy way out for the writers to get the wraith a home cooked meal...

I found the first totally believable. In fact, I think I could probably do it, myself.

The part with Sheppard talking him into sacrificing himself was less believable, although I could imagine that with both his wife and daughter gone, he felt he had nothing left to live for and truly did not want to be responsible for Jeannie's death. He was portrayed sympathetically enough that I could almost imagine that.


Wallace was not very convincing as a desperate father--I've seen many people die of cancer and I just found him hard to believe. I also know of people who have lost "everything"--kids, house, job and they are still alive. Sorry, don't believe that whole--"he lost it all" bull crap. It was nothing more than Shep taking advantage of a grieving and desperate man.

For some people, losing your child feels like losing everything. Just because you're still alive doesn't mean you feel life is worth living.
I do agree with the people who don't like what Shep did. I think they should have written it so Wallace offered, instead, as an act of redemption.

I loved hearing Rodney use John's first name again. The scenes between them were wonderful. DH and JF are such exceptionally good actors. DH's sister is excellent too.

eta:
I disagree with technoextreme. He didn't murder his daughter. Many parents make decisions to try very novel and untested therapies to save their children from cancer. Some of the drugs in clinical trials are very risky with nasty side effects. Occasionally, they prove fatal. You can't blame the parent for that. You can't call it murder when the parent's desperate desire is to save the child.

technoextreme
November 30th, 2007, 08:50 PM
US authorities go to Canada to investigate kidnappings all the time? At the beginning, no one had any idea this crime involved SGC/US military secrets.
Sure they do. If the crime is high profile enough. Having someone who knows of the Stargate Program being kidnapped is certainly high profile. I don't know enough about how it works but I know it isn't in the realm plot hole.
The part with Sheppard talking him into sacrificing himself was less believable, although I could imagine that with both his wife and daughter gone, he felt he had nothing left to live for and truly did not want to be responsible for Jeannie's death. He was portrayed sympathetically enough that I could almost imagine that.
The fact is that he technically murdered his daughter. He would have been killed anyway though we don't have any clue where this happened. As sympathetic as he was what he did was pretty dam evil.

jelgate
November 30th, 2007, 08:52 PM
As for Barrett - we last saw him in "Insiders" (season 10) and others were right:

Deciding Baal's plan worked only because of Barrett, they question the agent, thinking (and soon confirming) he has been brainwashed. He is taken into custody.

Hmmm. Seems our writers forgot about that one. ;)
No they didn't. Check this transcript from Uninvited,


VALA
How's it going?
CARTER
Nothing yet.
VALA
Any word from Area 51?
CARTER
Yeah. Agent Barrett called in about an hour ago. Said his team has detained everyone who had security clearance to the lab where the devices were being held

FoolishPleasure
November 30th, 2007, 08:56 PM
No they didn't. Check this transcript from Uninvited,

Uninvited was the next episode after Insiders, so I would guess either they were filmed out of order, or a character placed under arrest for treason suddenly working with SG1 the very next episode would just be more of the same sloppy writing that became the norm in season 10.

Jackie
November 30th, 2007, 08:56 PM
Wallace would of been convicted of Murder if he let Mckay's sister die. Sheppard could not let Rodney sacrifice himself. Sheppard basically gave Wallace a way to redeem himself and set things right. Both his Wife and Daughter were dead, well his Daughter was brain dead. He would be going to jail the rest of his life. I see it as Sheppard giving him a way out. Sheppard felt upset about what he did. The last scene with him in his quarters says it all. Sheppard is not a bad person or lacks compassion. He did the right thing.

Wallace wasn't very convincing as a grieving father in the first place to me, Brian. When he presented his dying kid, I actually rolled my eyes. (As I stated--i know real people who really did watch their children die) I just found his motivation and reasoning bizarre with took away from making him believable to me. I really kept waiting for them to figure out the kid was not his and he was playing them or something.

But instead of Wallace being the "bad guy" he turned into the unstable grieving father who does things he knew he shouldn't to save his kid. I know a lot of "unstable" people and wallace just didn't cut it for me. He was too shallow. So, I would have to read him as a man who is not mentally stable due to the added stress of the dying child and lost wife.

When someone is not mentally stable--and ready to do things that are out of character--than how can you--as an outside force sit back and suggest that this man commits suicide to "set things right" You have now lost your moral ground and are now in another level.

In the first place Wallace took an easy way out and second--in a age where radical suicide bombers attack people--is this the type of message that SGA should be sending out to their fans?

They needed to either make wallace a crazy bad guy or a victim of someone else doing. Not this "grieving parent' who seems who would terrorize, kidnap and even kill.

If Wallace wasn't the crazy bad guy--then he was a grieving parent who was acting out of his natural character due to the loss of his wife and dying child. If Wallace is mentally unstable--then shep no right to suggest the guy lets the wraith feed on him because Shep had just taken away Wallace's right to a fair trial and the right to mental health treatment.

ColCaldwell
November 30th, 2007, 08:56 PM
US authorities go to Canada to investigate kidnappings all the time? At the beginning, no one had any idea this crime involved SGC/US military secrets.

As for Barrett - we last saw him in "Insiders" (season 10) and others were right:

Deciding Baal's plan worked only because of Barrett, they question the agent, thinking (and soon confirming) he has been brainwashed. He is taken into custody.

Hmmm. Seems our writers forgot about that one. ;)

From Uninvited summary
'In addition, one device is missing from Area 51. Agent Barrett, who has recently recovered from his brainwashing ("Insiders"), is investigating."

Lord batchi ball
November 30th, 2007, 08:59 PM
You know how CISA (candian Intellegance service or somthing to that effect) was mention by Berret, well there was this show (comedy) about CISA, any way they were always broke and the single agent had to buy his own coffee, gun, bullets (placed in order of importance). Really an ok show but thats what I thought of when they mentioned it.

And when rodney asked for the Wraith to feed on him and shep said no, I thought Shep would let the wraith feed on himself(shep). It would make it a little interesting, but I liked how he "presented the sitution" to Wallace. Pretty creepy.

KiLL3r
November 30th, 2007, 09:00 PM
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/2492/bingojt4.jpg

jelgate
November 30th, 2007, 09:04 PM
Uninvited was the next episode after Insiders, so I would guess either they were filmed out of order, or a character placed under arrest for treason suddenly working with SG1 the very next episode would just be more of the same sloppy writing that became the norm in season 10.
Regardless of your opinion, canon says that Barret was rehabiltated from his brainwashing in Univited. You also don't know how much time has passed between the two episodes and what kind of brainwashing technique was used.

Stef
November 30th, 2007, 09:05 PM
Finally! The first moment this season that really wowed me. I would never have thought we'd have seen a scene of Shep bascially talking some guy into killing himself. That was...wow...very powerful. My interest is renewed!

-Stef

Uber
November 30th, 2007, 09:07 PM
Uh, I think someone needs to get over SG-1.
This was SUCH a bad episode and mostly because it was based on Earth! This is Atlantis! I didn't think this show could get any worse, but it did!!!So? What difference does that make? SG-1 episodes weren't always based on earth and other Atlantis episodes have included times on earth.

Newsflash...the team is from earth so it makes sense that they'd have to go there sometimes.

In other news....I LOVED this episode. Rodney McKay is luv. Jeannie is luv. Radek, Shep and Ronon...you guessed it. They are luv too. :)

Okay...now in all seriousness...

I was fascinated by the obstacles our guys faced and how they responded to them. McKay shows once again that when push comes to shove, he really is not the selfish egomaniac he pretends to be. His willing to sacrifice himself for his sister was extremely powerful...as was Shep's solution. He proves once again how important his team means to him as well as how he's able to make the tough calls when he has to *thinks back to his ordering McKay to throw the kill switch on Elizabeth in Lifeline*.

I know this disgusts some folks but let's get beyond that initial reaction and consider the whole picture.

They need Todd. Not only to save Jeannie, but also to continue working on the Asuran virus with McKay, thereby saving hundreds of thousands...MILLIONS of lives. Like I said...they need Todd.

And the thing is...there is no pleasant alternative when talking about feeding a starving Wraith. The only way to save a Wraith is for someone to die.

Wallace recognized that Jeannie was dying and would die if he didn't give himself up willingly...and he didn't want that on his conscience. He wanted to make right what he made wrong and this absolved him in his own mind for the things that he did.

Tough, tough episode with some light hearted beats. ie...WALTER!!! Man I was laughing so hard. Could you come up with a more perfectly opposite duo than Ronon and Walter? I think not.

Minor niggle...it would have made sense to me had one of the scientists mentioned Sam. She is a scientist after all...so why not suggest that they check with her for ideas? Or for one of them to say that since McKay was at a dead end and that Carter was equally baffled that he should check in with his sister. Like I said...minor niggle.

I loved this episode (wait...I said that) though all in all and I hope we see LOTS more of Jeannie as the story calls for it.

And ooh at that preview for TMC...WEIR!!! And more than one SHEP!!! And EXPLOSIONS!!!! AND WEIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Landers
November 30th, 2007, 09:07 PM
If Wallace wasn't the crazy bad guy--then he was a grieving parent who was acting out of his natural character due to the loss of his wife and dying child. If Wallace is mentally unstable--then shep no right to suggest the guy lets the wraith feed on him because Shep had just taken away Wallace's right to a fair trial and the right to mental health treatment.

Shep had no right to push that man into suicide. Wallace should have been arrested and given a trial but Shep took the law into his own hands and basically was responsible for another man's demise. There are LAWS and people can't go around cause other people to die for revenge, or to save a relative. If everyone did that we would have total anarchy. There needed to be some sort of punishment for Shep. I would have loved to see how Teyla or Weir would have reacted to his actions. Instead, we get Rodney and Shep walking off into the sunset (or down the hall in this case).

It was an interesting episode at times, but Ronon was wasted on Earth, and Shep's actions were questionable. Plus, with Barrett's past involvement with the Trust and with Baal, I don't know why he is still in that job. Plus, he was sorta after Carter long ago and it was creepy.

Landers
November 30th, 2007, 09:12 PM
Regardless of your opinion, canon says that Barret was rehabiltated from his brainwashing in Univited. You also don't know how much time has passed between the two episodes and what kind of brainwashing technique was used.

I gotta laugh. Barrett was brainwashed by an alien bent on destroying humanity, engages in high treason and helps Baal escape to kill humans later on, and the government "rehabilitates" him in a couple weeks and puts him back in the same top secret position? Its so dumb, its laughable.

ann_sgcfan
November 30th, 2007, 09:12 PM
Get this through your thick heads. He murder his daughter. I don't quite understand why people don't realize this. It wasn't this simple naive little act that this man did. That's why Sheppard told him that his daughter died. It went from being some lesser crime to "your a dead man".

I think Wallace was trying to save his daughter with what little time he had left. He was desperate to save her so he used the only advanced technology, that he thought would work. His daughter had only months to live so it was a last ditch effort. Jeannie, as a mother, certainly felt for him despite what he put her through.

Was it the wrong decision? Yeah Wallace was dealing with technology he didn't fully understand. He only knew that McKay had used the technology to save Weir. Just like doctors in the 1800's who used leeches to bleed a patient, thinking that would cure them. Or in the twentieth century when open heart surgeries first began. The doctors didn't have the knowledge back then that they do today. My great uncle was the first open heart patient in my city, before I was born. He died a fews days later. Are these doctors murderers... No my family didn't think so. It was a last ditch effort to save them. Was kidnapping Rodney and Jeanie the answers either... Nope not by a long shot! Two wrongs don't make a right. However having Sheppard guilt him into killing himself to save Jeannie seemed way out of character for Sheppard.

I loved the first part of the episode. I always enjoy Rodney and Jeannie's banter!! They are hilarious together! I loved the part where Rodney wanted to sacrifice himself, great character moment. I also liked that Sheppard wouldn't let him do it. Ronon in street cloths was nice!! And his reaction to Walter in the Commissary was funny as well. Wish they would have mentioned Teyla.

Erised
November 30th, 2007, 09:14 PM
That's a little unfair. They are an Earth based mission. Because they work on Atlantis their now not allowed to go to Earth? I like to see and Earth based episode every now and then. It is after all were it all began.

It's fair. The quality of this show started declining fast the moment they made contact with Earth. Being lost, never knowing whether they would go home made it great! Now it's just SGA-1.

prion
November 30th, 2007, 09:19 PM
What was Sheppard reading at the end of the episode in his room? I could swear it was a comic book...

Traveler Enroute1
November 30th, 2007, 09:21 PM
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/2492/bingojt4.jpg


With bonus points! THUNK!

Just sayin', I drooled when I heard them tell Ronon he'd need a change of clothes! Then when I saw him, yeow. I mean, I bingo!

Freekzilla
November 30th, 2007, 09:22 PM
Jeez, yet another "Meh" episode. So far, I've really liked only 3 episodes this season. Very disappointing. Ok, let's spend an hour showing the characters thinking and talking about thinking and nothing else. I guess it's called character developement, supposedly. But, why is it TPTB can't show/do some character developement AND have some action? It's always one or the other. And why is it that they are never out exploring? Isn't that a primary mission? Here it is season 4 already and we STILL have only seen a dozen planets or so. They haven't found much of anything else leftover by the Ancients. No shipyards, no manufacturing facilities, no research facilities (since last season), no ruined population centers (not every planet has to be a primative medeval village), nothing, nada, zilch. Sorry, but this is just ANOTHER "body gets taken over by an alien entity/virus infection" type of episode. LAME! BORING! I am so sick of episodes based on this premise. Granted, it was mildly entertaining, and I'm talking tapioca pudding mild, but definitely not anything that would keep my interest.

Jeannie surviving was so predictable, as was someone getting "infected" with nanites. The Wallace villain was weak and horrible. Ronon wasn't himself this week. The scene with Walter was filler to the extent that it was worse than Bondo. Agent Barret was his usual boring drab self. And again, this was another Rodney centric episode. Hey, they've done a character centric episode for all of the main cast now except Carter, oh joy. Right now, season 3 is looking better and better. Absolutely pathetic. Adrift and Lifeline got my hopes up too high I guess. Can you tell I'm not a happy camper?

jelgate
November 30th, 2007, 09:25 PM
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/2492/bingojt4.jpg
Put that picture away before Peg see it. The last thing we need is her drooling over Sheppard and Ronon
*shudders in fear of that thought*

Freekzilla
November 30th, 2007, 09:34 PM
Oh yeah, the Tin Man advertising was EXTREMELY annoying beyond belief! It was a real turnoff and I certainly won't be watching it, for two reasons, Skiffy made it, and skiffy over promoted it, correction, 3 reasons, because it looks like crap too. Err, scratch that, 4 reasons, they've NEVER advertised SGA or SG-1 that much. Not even close. *flips the bird to skiffy*

Heaven
November 30th, 2007, 09:35 PM
that's what I call implausible circumstance plot

this story was so artificial

absolutely hated it

SaberBlade
November 30th, 2007, 09:36 PM
Walter makes me miss SG1.

Sad thing is, that's like the best/longest thing he's done since going space cowboy with that Alkesh. Ronan's reaction to him was great.

"I've put her into a medically induced coma and broke her legs"

Seriously that's like the best line ever. I have to say that i'm being impressed with Heyerdhal as the Wraith all the time. Actually yawning through McKay's plea was a nice touch to showing just how much he doesn't care about human life, that despite all his help he wouldn't be bothered if everyone just died as long as the code gets done.

I wasn't too happy with Sheppard. It was sort of predictable that Culp's character would eventually be made the goat for the Wraith to feed on, but trying to guilt him into it, it wasn't him. While it does fit with him willing to protect his team member and using the bad guy as a McHuman, but I don't believe that it was right for him to do that, and for all those guards to take part in what is essentially a coverup. It was nice to see that he still had some guilt over it but I can see someone like Woolsey or the IOA using their story about the Wraith feeding as an excuse to kill the Wraith so it should come back to bite them in the ass.

Ruffles
November 30th, 2007, 09:37 PM
I like the idea of feeding vegetable girl to Todd. The line about her dying was sort stuck in there, like TPTB knew they had to get rid of her somehow, but didn't know how to do it, so. . ."she died". She could have died saving the sister, but no, its just mentioned that she died. Plain old dead-end writing.

I disagree. I thought the nanites having a weakness was an interesting twist. Plus, no way would Sheppard ask the dad to sacrifice the daughter nor would the dad ever consider it, even if she was a vegetable.


Shep had no right to push that man into suicide. Wallace should have been arrested and given a trial but Shep took the law into his own hands and basically was responsible for another man's demise. There are LAWS and people can't go around cause other people to die for revenge, or to save a relative. If everyone did that we would have total anarchy. There needed to be some sort of punishment for Shep. I would have loved to see how Teyla or Weir would have reacted to his actions. Instead, we get Rodney and Shep walking off into the sunset (or down the hall in this case).

Whether or not Wallace sacrificed himself, he would never see the inside of a courtroom. He knows too much - the SGC, Atlantis, the Wraith.

What would you punish Shep for? Having a conversation? If he'd dragged Wallace into a room and locked him in with the Wraith, I'd agree. But showing the guy pictures of Jeannie's family and reminding him of what he'd done? I don't think there's a crime there.

As for Teyla's reaction, watch Trinity again when Ronon kills Kell in cold blood. She is furious that he used her but says in his place she would probably have done the same thing. Or watch her slit the guy's throat in Missing. I don't think she would have been overly horrified at Sheppard's choice.

Out of curiosity, what would your solution be? Because Rodney was not going to let his sister die.


I think Wallace was trying to save his daughter with what little time he had left. He was desperate to save her so he used the only advanced technology, that he thought would work. His daughter had only months to live so it was a last ditch effort. Jeannie, as a mother, certainly felt for him despite what he put her through.

Was it the wrong decision? Yeah Wallace was dealing with technology he didn't fully understand. He only knew that McKay had used the technology to save Weir. Just like doctors in the 1800's who used leeches to bleed a patient, thinking that would cure them. Or in the twentieth century when open heart surgeries first began. The doctors didn't have the knowledge back then that they do today. My great uncle was the first open heart patient in my city, before I was born. He died a fews days later. Are these doctors murderers... No my family didn't think so. It was a last ditch effort to save them. Was kidnapping Rodney and Jeanie the answers either... Nope not by a long shot! Two wrongs don't make a right. However having Sheppard guilt him into killing himself to save Jeannie seemed way out of character for Sheppard.

I loved the first part of the episode. I always enjoy Rodney and Jeannie's banter!! They are hilarious together! I loved the part where Rodney wanted to sacrifice himself, great character moment. I also liked that Sheppard wouldn't let him do it. Ronon in street cloths was nice!! And his reaction to Walter in the Commissary was funny as well. Wish they would have mentioned Teyla.

In Sateda, Sheppard tells Teyla that he would do anything for any of them. There was no way he was going to let Rodney die. I found it completely in character for John to do whatever was necessary to remedy the situation. I wonder what he would have done if Wallace had refused. I don't think Sheppard would have forced him. I think he would have offered himself instead.

Erised
November 30th, 2007, 09:37 PM
hold on...
this episode also reminded me...
oh what was it?
oh yes....
Desperate Measures!!!

lirenel
November 30th, 2007, 09:39 PM
You know, I'm continually surprised at how many people dislike the episodes that I consider great. In fact, the only parts I didn't like were Walter's joke (he should know better after all these years that the alien visitor probably wouldn't get it) and McKay kicking the door (mostly because I can never handle watching people be embarrassed. Never)

I loved that McKay was willing to die for his sister. Like others have mentioned, he knows what a Wraith-feeding does, but was willing to do it for Jeannie. And then you just know that he was trying to sneak into his lab in order to go behind Sheppard's back and do it anyway. And despite all that, despite his complete willingness to die for his sister, when she finally wakes up he just kinda shrugs a "love you too", putting on the mask that he uses to hide his feelings from others.

I thought the bad guy (whose name I can't remember so I'll call him 'Webb' because, hey, how many years as Clayton Webb on JAG?) was perfectly understandable. His daughter was dying. He thought Rodney and Jeannie could fix her. He was desperate enough to risk everything. But he was a good enough guy to give up his life to save Jeannie, who he had put at risk. He also probably felt he didn't have anything to live for. As for John showing him the photographs, they may have been needed. Even if Webb already was deciding that he would do it, it takes a lot for a person, even a despondent one, to willingly give up their life. The pictures would have steeled his resolve.

And I don't think it was out of character for Sheppard to try and convince Webb. I think he knew Rodney would do something desperate, and he had to save his family. He had to. It's interesting to juxtapose Webb desperate to save his daughter and Sheppard doing something he knew was morally ambiguous in order to save his teammate/friend/brother.

As for the end scene, I think Sheppard was hiding how much feeding Webb to the Wraith darkened his soul. I look forward to seeing how fanfic writers take that scene. I may take a crack at it myself.

Finally: I love that Rodney called Madison 'lady'. He has a pet name for her! It's adorable, imo.

jelgate
November 30th, 2007, 09:43 PM
hold on...
this episode also reminded me...
oh what was it?
oh yes....
Desperate Measures!!!

I knew it was only a matter of tim someone brought that up. The only similarity between those two episodes is that someone was kidnapped. There kidnapper and why the person were kiddnapped was totally different.

Quinn Mallory
November 30th, 2007, 09:50 PM
Not quite the tone that I was expecting with the expectation from the last Jeanie episode last year. However, I would have to say that I found this episode quite fascinating. I think the ethically grey action by Sheppard at the end was very SG (in showing how our heroes are perhaps flawed). That really made the episode. I think I was particularly worried/invested in this episode due to the false rumors that I stumbled upon that Jeanie might die in this episode. For an episode with only half of the regular cast, this was a pretty good one.

Also, it was good to see the SGC again both in the set that was supposed to represent the SGC and in Wallace's office that looked awfully like General Hammond/O'Neal/Landry's office (I may be wrong about this).

Finally, if I'm going to nitpick, I would say that in practice that it's a bit implausible that the Wraith would be moved to Earth that quickly even with McKay's pull as a valuable member of Atlantis. You would think that the Earth bureaucrats would have blocked that.

Erised
November 30th, 2007, 09:51 PM
I knew it was only a matter of tim someone brought that up. The only similarity between those two episodes is that someone was kidnapped. There kidnapper and why the person were kiddnapped was totally different.
you know, the very reason you thought of it just proves the fact that you found it similar too... It's ok, you don't have to deny it. Remember, TPTB admitted that they were reusing SG-1 scripts.

jelgate
November 30th, 2007, 09:58 PM
you know, the very reason you thought of it just proves the fact that you found it similar too... It's ok, you don't have to deny it. Remember, TPTB admitted that they were reusing SG-1 scripts.
No I didn't. I just knew some angry fans would compare the two episodes like they did with The Seer and Prophecy which I thought were completely different. Besides kidnaping someone who works for the SGC they were completely different episodes.

majorsal
November 30th, 2007, 10:08 PM
this ep was alright for me. i saw too many plot holes, but i'll just leave it at that i guess.

i enjoyed mckay and his sister. that's about it.




sally :)

ann_sgcfan
November 30th, 2007, 10:17 PM
I do like Sheppard! I think I need to clarify that and I liked the episode up until the moment where he is talking to Wallace. I can see Sheppard doing almost anything to save his team... but to actually provide the wraith with a meal?

The writers put the story out there and the solution that Sheppard decided to go with agree or disagree... like or dislike. It's now cannon and it's part of the character. I am hoping now that the writers don't try to bury it like it was a walk in th park. I think Sheppard was bothered by what he did at the very end of the episode. What happens when Todd is let go and the two meet on opposing sides? I'm sure Todd will remind Sheppard that he allowed him to feed on a human. It was definitely a dark turn. It will be interesting to see where they take it from here.

Major_Griff
November 30th, 2007, 11:10 PM
Good episode. I'm really liking how there really have been no stand alones this year thus far. Every ep has tied into a larger storyline. And they still manage to keep the show from becoming too serialized. It was nice to see Jeanie again. I liked that for once, it wasn't the Trust. Also it was cool how it wasn't like Shep and Ronon rescue the McKay's and then eps over, there was a lot more they had to do to save Jeanie. I liked the dark ending. I did think it was a little but out of character and out of line for Sheppard to suggest that Wallace allow himself to be wraithed, but it was nice for a change to have a truly dark ending. Also I realized that Teyla was not in the ep! This is significant because I didn't notice she was missing from The Intruder until she showed up at the end and I didn't realize that she was missing in GUP until I had watched it several times on DVD. Its great that they have finally made the character stand out to the point where it is noticeable if she misses an ep. Over I give Miller's Crossing an 8/10.

Leliana McKay
November 30th, 2007, 11:13 PM
...well the episode was ok or I should say Good until the suicide by Wraith moment.

This was a very charged with feelings episode. I usually like those kind of episodes but I think the acting was not up to the usual standard for some people or maybe it was just the writing of some scenes...

I liked the episode but it could have been a lot better. Now as to compare M&MM with M'C, well I think I prefered the first one (acting speaking, plotwise I would say Miller's Crossing was a bit better). Both episodes have great plots.

The best thing in Miller's Crossing was every scene between Rodney and his sister.

When Rodney captured, first sees Jeannie and hugs her so happy that she is alive I had this smile on my face.
I am happy with the fact that the writers are sticking to the Rodney character growth and the familly feeling with his sister.

My favorite scene was the " Are you gonna marry that Katie girl" or something close to that.
First, I'm glad that Jeannie and Rodney are talking about personal stuff rather then only work, life threatening issues. Second, the scene was hilarious. Jeannie hinting he should marry Katie because he is not going to get anyone better, and physically Rodney is "No John Sheppard" !!
AHAHAHAHAH!!! What a nice sister!:mckay:
I would argue that I think Rodney is sexier then John ... in his own style (I somehow don't find Sheppard sexy, sorry!) and I think Rodney COULD get someone better than Katie.

Rodney is useless with memorizing a map! (Of course Rodney knowing a way out of the building would have been too easy)

David and Kate are so good at playing the growing tension between siblings. Rodney was very touching and cute in this episode.


I did NOT like the scene with Ronon and Walter in the mess hall. What a waste of a scene. The writers could have written something a lot better for those two great characters.


My second favorite scene Rodney volunteering his life for his sister. Very moving scene, The second scene this season where Sheppard shows his deep friendship feelings for Rodney. I was thinking that John would volunteer ... but he just orders Rodney not to do it (ok I understand why John is saying and doing that and that's fine but the next scene I cannot forgive...)

Sheppard talks to Wallace and shows him pictures of Maddison and Caleb. AND manages to convince Wallace to die for Jeannie. :(
I can't believe how manipulative Sheppard is. First Wallace loses his daughter ( to me he is just a desperate father (no joke intended here) who tried to save his daughter) and John tells him that he has to die life sucked by a Wraith to do the right thing? ok injecting Jeannie as not very nice)
I so wanted to strangle Sheppard (obviously I don't want Rodney to be a Wraith hamburger but I just feel that Sheppard war too dark and evil to Wallace)

Rodney with Lee's card tries to go to the wraith to die for his sister but ... surprise... Sheppard has already killed Wallace (yes that's what I think of Sheppard's actions) -please argue if you want but I just feel it was wrong.

Jeannie alive and the second hug was awesome. Than, she tells him "I love you" and Rodney reluctantly says the "I love you too", Rodney is coming out of his shell!

Of course Jeannie is not gonna let Rodney go easy with the "you almost got me killed" situation... I'm looking forward to future references in some episode.

Back on Atlantis, Rodney talks to Sheppard about what he did. Rodney is not happy with what John did but still thanks him for saving his life. (Even more unhappy I am. I would have prefered no thanks but just a... ok, I undestand why you did it)

The back to friend so fast and good look discussion ( even look!) was not welcome here after such a moral dilemma. I know Atlantis is supposed to have funny moments but I'm sure fans can deal with a tense ending between characters once in a while.

Difficult to grade for the obvious dilemma...
8... or 8.5/10 for Miller's Crossing.

1138
November 30th, 2007, 11:42 PM
I gotta laugh. Barrett was brainwashed by an alien bent on destroying humanity, engages in high treason and helps Baal escape to kill humans later on, and the government "rehabilitates" him in a couple weeks and puts him back in the same top secret position? Its so dumb, its laughable.

The SGC has access to all sorts of mind altering technologies. They have devices that can rewrite your memory. They've had ample experience with Goa'uld brainwashing techniques. It shouldn't be surprising that they can rehabilitate Agent Barrett. Teal'c was once brainwashed and he made a full recovery. All of SG-1 has come under the influence of the Nishta bacteria and all males in the SGC were controlled by Hathor at one point. They all recovered via various means.

morjana
December 1st, 2007, 12:03 AM
You know, I thought Adrift was an excellent episode. :sheppard:

And that Lifeline was wonderful. :weir:

And Reunion awesome, Doppelganger terrific, Travelers marvelous, Tabula Rasa fabulous, Missing marvelous, and The Seer was stunning...

:zelenka25:

But "Miller's Crossing" was so excellent, wonderful, awesome, terrific, marvelous, fabulous, marvelous, stunning and just so frakkin' GOOD, that I can only say "Miller's Crossing" was...sublime.

The quintessential Stargate Atlantis episode.

The touchstone for all other episodes to aspire to reach its greatness.

Boy, am I going to be in trouble for adjectives for next week's episode!

Season Four of Stargate Atlantis ROCKS!

This was also a three hankie episode of SGA.

The scene where Rodney is trying to convince Shep to let him sacrifice himself for his sister...sniff.

But the scene where Shep suggests an...act of absolution to Wallace...and the follow up conservation between Shep and McKay on Atlantis - whew!

Loved everything about this episode. From the detail in the cafeteria, where the food server was in the background passing out the salt/pepper shakers to the tables; to the mention of Generals Landry and O'Neill by Walter; to the wonderful acting by Kate Hewlett, Steven Culp, Peter Flemming and everyone on the SGA cast; the exquisite music; the humor (Nancy Drew) -- oh, hey, we even got a product placement, the Prius -- this episode had everything.

My only complaint?


That %$#@&*^% #[email protected]@&^%% SciFi Channel running those $%^&*%#$ banner ads completely across the bottom of the screen for Tin Man. Well, I was on the fence about watching that mini-series, but now I've made up my mind...I'm going to read the "The Wizard of Oz" book - AGAIN! instead.

Oh, oh, Fail Safe is on. I love this episode.

A BIG thank you to everyone at Stargate Atlantis for all their hard work!

Woo-hoo!

:) :indeed:

techjunkie
December 1st, 2007, 12:36 AM
I am having problems with this episode.

And yet I like it. Yes, it was the quintessential Stargate Atlantis episode. Yes, I loved the return of Kate. Even her fate, while speculated elsewhere, was classic SG:A.

Ok.... spoilers beyond this point.

Seriously... back off.

Problems:

If the government is farming out alien tech to companies, you know they would have an active database to search. The idea that John Sheppard would be going through paper records is a joke.
Joking about CSIS is a tad bit over the top. Imagine me flipping the bird to the writers. Anal motherfuc#[email protected]##$! The US CIA was so much better.... *imagine snarky laughing*
Her husbands reaction. Lame. If it was me, I would have strangled Rodney. Without a doubt, I would have killed him. Obviously the writers have yet to spawn children, and understand the love a father has for the bearer of my children.
Unsecured email. Give me a break. Rodney sends the replicator program to Earth for Jeannie's to look at, and NOBODY NOTICED???? GOOD GOD - SG1 has Presidential level security, but Google's gmail slips past them without a minor effort.
Loving father, after loosing his wife, and about to lose his daughter infects a helpless kidnap victim, yet fains he is a good guy.
Leukemia. Sorry, but diseased people look sick. Not healthy. When my father died from leukemia, it was not pretty. Thank you writers for making death painless and pretty. Maybe that's why I'm so bugged out about this episode.
McKay being Rambo. Without a gun. NID dude actually acts without backup. Right.
Companies, trusted with alien tech are not monitored. Not watched 24/7. Right.
We have half the VPD on this. Vancouver Police Department. Right, these guys can hardly manage their own affairs (i live in Vancouver), let alone work with US NID agents who appear out of no-where. Nice touch of Vancouverism's, but completely misplaced.
West Edmonton Mall? Tasers? Nice timing by the writers.OK, my indignation is stilled. The episode was fun. It was a better episode than the past several.

But the holes... Damn. I wish I didn't like this series.

Tech Junkie

hlclew
December 1st, 2007, 12:39 AM
Great episode by all means but i didn't like the story line that much, the bad guy didn't have to capture the Miller's, he could have just asked for help, and he submitted himself to death by letting himself be feed by a wraith is just too sudden, i felt this this episode was just rushed, too many missing parts!

Platschu
December 1st, 2007, 01:12 AM
It could be a dark twist, when Bennett watches a top secret SGC video record in the lat scene, where Todd feed upon Wallace against his will, so Sheppard made Todd execute him. :eek:

Kribby
December 1st, 2007, 01:29 AM
Finally! John does something truly interesting and defining. About time. Granted we always knew he cared about his friends but its nice to actually see how far he'd go and what lines he'd cross when it doesn't involve the black and white issues of shoot or be shot.

A pretty good episode. This season, so far, is superior to the last... but just so the compliments don't go too far...it really didn't take much to surpass s.3


I agree! John was interesting in this episode. This is the second time this season where he has done something unexpected (that sticks out-- so I notice and remember) that works.

The other time happened in Travelers when he fixed the crystals and got the whatever device back running again...

Kribby
December 1st, 2007, 01:30 AM
This was one of the best episodes of the season! The acting was fantastic by everyone in it. Man i gotta tell you, that scene where sheppard talked that guy into killing himself was very unnerving. Joe did a fantastic job with that scene! I felt bad for henry wallace.He was just trying to save his daughter's life. Ronan was great in this episode, he looked so funny in earth clothes! Loved the fact that mckay was willing to be fed on to save his sister. The rodney/todd scenes were wonderful.I loved how rodney talked him into helping him save his sister. The end scene with mckay and sheppard was great also.The two have come along way since the first episode.

next weeks episode looks really good.

??? We are calling the wraith Todd?
Really?

When did this happen?

Klenotka
December 1st, 2007, 01:37 AM
Top scene of whole SGA and this episode-Rodney asking Sheppard to let him sacrifice for his sister. And he called him John! It was so great. Fantastic friendship moment. I have been waiting for this so long.
And the looks they were sharing. I think what Sheppard did, was also big sacrifice. And when Rodney asked why Sheppard doesn´t want him to let do it, I almost expected him to answer "because you are my best friend".

Rodney´s speech to the Wraith was great. I kept saying "wow", he is talking about bonds and family, this is amazing. But I was sorry for Wallace´s daughter. But I think it had to happen. Not for Wallace, thought. He wanted to save his daughter but it gave him no right to inject Jeannie.

And the Wraith in the base, it was fantastic. I liked it because it meant connection with previous and following episode. And to have a Wraith there, in SGC or Atlantis, brilliant idea.

Rodney all caring for his sister, it was so cute. And the fact that he acutally offered himself to the Wraith for exchange for life of his sister? I love this guy and I knew he cares but this was amazing.

I guess I am really not neutral here because I love Rodney and David H. But they all were great. We have finally seen Sheppard actually *do something* for Rodney like for his friend and this was...really something.
Mabe the "twist" with Wallace was predictable bc in the minute I saw him sitting with Sheppard there, it was clear to me that he will offer himself for the Wraith. But I think it was the only solution.

And I really admired David´s acting in the "persuation the Wraith" scene. It was long text, but so touching and David made it great. But everone made fantastic job here.
It is when the good writer writes a good script than all actors can do a fine job.
Could Martin Gero write all episodes, please?

Kribby
December 1st, 2007, 01:50 AM
My god this was a crappy, cring-worthy, unbelievably stupid episode.

Any redeeming qualities? Um, Ronan’s “dumb” comment, probably because it did such a good job foreshadowing the script. Too bad we can’t get Ronan to point his gun at it and disintergrate it into non-existence.

Stupid and cringe-worthy.
SGC has become voyager S1. Everyone in the universe knows about the program. But I guess that makes sense if our resident genius is FREAKING EMAILING alien programs across unsecured networks. I think I heard a thud, I think it was my company’s security officer having a stroke.

Sappy bad guy, it was a blessing that he was fed to the wraith but very pathetically anti-moral of Sheppard. How exactly am I supposed to have respect for him? Or McKay for “thanking” him?

What idiot would bring the wraith to the SGC… or volunteer to get eaten by one… oh right, Mckay.

Stupid and cringe-worthy….and did I mention boring? I was looking at the clock at 10:30 wondering if it would ever end.

Walter = Cringe-worthy
NID guy = Cringe-worthy
Ronan = still cool but as bored as I was
Sheppard = scumbag
Badguy = Scumbag and sappy and boring
Mckay = idiot
Jennie = sadly strapped to this horrible role by her brother
Jennies husband = annoying.
Waith = just shaking my head.


Next week previews Weir and the vision I have a little bit of hope that this is just a one off bad ep and that we will not spiral into a S9-S10 tragedy…..but as this ep kicked me in the gut with its patheticness, it’s a slim hope.

Geez.

I don't agree with anything you just wrote.

To start with... Ronon’s ‘dumb’ comment bothered me because I think he is selling himself short. Of course the writers are doing the same to him. From a common sense standpoint the thought flashed through my brain… ‘Ronon reads English??’ Of course the fact that this is Sci-Fi means all aliens read and write in English.

I don’t think everyone *knows* about the SGC. But it has been previously established that QUITE A FEW people know about the SGC. There were numerous episodes in Stargate SG-1 where civilians knew about the Stargate program or at least knew something funny was/is going on- around and under Cheyenne Mountain.

About the emails… you would think that Genius #1 (Rodney) has some ability to encrypt any email he sends and you would think Genius #2 (Jeannie) would also have the ability to encrypt any email she sent. So what’s the problem? I don’t think there is a problem

Okay, Walter WAS cringeworthy—but I thought this because I’ve realized he hasn’t aged well. The story he told was moderately amusing.
The NID guy—wasn’t cringeworthy—he was just doing his usual ineffectual job.
I didn’t consider Sheppard a scumbag. I liked how he presented the scenario to the Wallace guy. This season I am finally beginning to see that he is equipped (dare I say intellectually or deviously) to be the military leader of Atlantis.

I don’t know why you considered McKay an idiot. He loves his sister… he was trying to save her. So what he got captured (this happens frequently). So what he got lost in the building (his sister dropped the character detail about him being lost in a mall once—so his getting lost in this episode is supported).

I loved Jeannie in this episode. I am not seeing any reason to *feel sorry for her*.

What was wrong with Jeannie’s husband? I don’t see your complaint.

What was wrong with the Wraith? He was hungry. He fainted. It happens.

I don’t understand why you didn’t just turn the tv off at 10:30 if you were so bored. I’ve done that tons of times for shows I am not enjoying.

My time is valuable and I don’t believe in wasting it on things I do not like. You should value your time as well.

Kribby
December 1st, 2007, 01:58 AM
Okay.....this was soooooo Desparate Measures (S5/SG-1) with a different twist. :) But....I liked the episode anyway. ;) It was nice seeing Kate again as Jeanie. I just love the chemistry between her and David. They are just so funny together.

It was also great seeing Agent Barret. He is a great character. When he and Rodney went to that door, and Rodney attempted to kick the door down (looking like an ass of course). I bursted out laughing. :D

Ronon on Earth! How cool was that? :D It was just so cool seeing him on Earth....IN civilian clothes. The scene with him and Walter was just the funniest thing. I was like, "Walter!" That was awesome. :D

John Sheppard was wonderful. I loved the scene with him and Rodney where Rodney was asking John to permit him to sacrifice himself for Jeanie. I love how John was just so calm in telling him why he couldn't let him do that. That was a great moment. Kudos to both David and Joe on that scene.

Then, of course John persuading Wallace to sacrifice himself for Rodney's sister was just intense. My jaw dropped at that scene. Then, when seeing the black body bag, I was dumbfounded. I was like...wow John crossed the line....again. But....I guess it was the better of the two evils in order to save Jeanie.

I do have a problem with this episode....and it's a big problem. I was fine with the episode until........

WRAITH.....on.....EARTH????? :eek: Are they insane??? :S This is like a chicken farmer having a fox help raise his chickens! It just does not make sense! What the frak are they gonna do with him now??? They can't just let him go. Cause what's to say he's not gonna brag to his Wraith buddies that he's found Earth? :S Are they gonna kill him? I think they gonna hafta. This does not sit well with me at all. :beckettanime14:


I applaud the brilliant acting of Joe, David, Jason, and Kate on this episode. They did an awesome job on this episode. :)


I agree with you.

But seriously... is there any way that they could have fooled the wraith...

Maybe told him that they were going to another base on another planet. I mean (okay it is really unlikely) the wraith just saw the inside of the SGC.

It could be the alpha site...

I am just sayin'...

g.o.d
December 1st, 2007, 02:03 AM
is there a preview for the next episode? I'm curious

Platschu
December 1st, 2007, 02:05 AM
is there a preview for the next episode? I'm curious

Morjana and I already posted them. ;)

Kribby
December 1st, 2007, 02:08 AM
Get over it, this was a great episode, it's not like we see the SGC every day.

Ditto.

Pegasus_SGA
December 1st, 2007, 02:08 AM
My first thoughts? Hmmmm i don't know! :lol: That's got to be a first! :o

I think this is one of those eps that i'm going to have to watch again and get the full impact. There were parts I loved, and parts that felt a bit slow for me. As for the moral and ethical implications... loved it! As i've said so many times, I love these kind of eps that make me think of future ramifications and make me think was it the right decision? What would I have done? Is it morally or ethically right to push someone towards a decision that the chances are they were going to make anyway?

Suicide is a very controversial subject, and having Sheppard pushing Wallace (albeit through very effective guilt tactics) towards that, was a very dark, very bold move, and I really liked the fact that it's got me thinking this way, and that Atlantis is going a more darker route It seperates SGA more away from SG1 (which isn't a bad thing imo).

I chortled at Zelenka's 'losing the will to live' at the very start. Now whether that was a conscious effort on behalf of the writers to use that simily to 'set the tone', (in a unique way) I don't know, but it's something that has stuck in my head.

Some parts of the Rodney/house Caleb thing bored me a bit, but I understand the whole setting up thing and that it's necessary. Not sure I understood why Calab left the house, if it was me, i'd want to stay by the phone. And Rodney going off with Barrett and the team leaving him.... again I know it was necessary, but it didn't feel right. I know Rodney can be stubborn and maybe the team felt he needed to be on his own, and that's Rodney's way of dealing with things. (That's how i'm looking at it, and the only reason I can see why they left him.)

I missed Teyla in this, only because the team felt a bit off, and I don't like Agent Barrett. :lol: He just bores me, I never liked him in SG1 either. So him working with the team..... not for me.

What got me more into it, was the lengths people are willing to go to for their family, and that seemed to be the running theme throughout; Rodney and Jeannie, Wallace and his daughter, Shep and Rodney... you catch my drift. :o

Wallace was very calculating and knew exactly what would get McKay motivated, and he was right. Although Mckay is a bit of a fraidycat, when it comes to protecting those close to him, he'll do just about anything to ensure their survival. And I loved the conversation he had with Shep about sacrificing himself for his sister, and it inturn causing Shep's dilemma and subsequent decision. I had to giggle at Rodney's attempts to get into the lab without pre-warning Sheppard that he was going to do that. I also really liked the fact that Shep had locked him out and consequently he had to sneak Dr Lee's card. Go Rodney! :D

As for the moral and ethical dilemma.. i'm really pleased that they put Sheppard in this position to be honest (not because i'm a Shep fan), but I like to see the lengths people will go to, to save a family member. And Shep stood up to the plate. I'm actually a bit shocked and pleased that the writers (Mr G) had the guts to flesh out these ethical points. Guilting someone into giving up their life while they're on a path to self destruction is a difficult choice to make. We know that Wallace's intentions from the onset were that he couldn't give a toss about his life and all he cared about was his daughter. So when she died, his reasons for living died with her. Morally was it right that Shep took advantage of that? No it wasn't, but it is understandable. From my perspective Wallace's initiall actions came about through desperation at watching a loved one die. And he made a choice. So did Shep! Sheppard could no longer watch Rodney sacrifice himself than he could any member of his team. So he did what was necessary. It does make you think, how far would you go for a friend or a family member who was willing to sacrifce their life. Well, we got Shep and Rodney's answer!

I edited my post, because I hadn't said enough. :lol: But what I also enjoyed was Rodney's manipulation with the Wraith, very smart. I noticed that the CG wraith (i'm not calling him Todd. :lol:) didn't answer his questions about family and stuff, hopefully we'll get to learn about about their hierachy and family later on, but Rodney did really good in getting what he needed from the Wraith, and pushing the right buttons to make him more co-operative. :D And was it more or was the Wraith getting bored with Rodney? So much so that he actually yawned? :lol:

*looks up at her post* Sorry. :o Long winded again, but these are the types of eps that I love, and that get me thinking long after the ep has finished. Score, hmmmm not sure yet, ask me later when i've watched it again. :lol:

g.o.d
December 1st, 2007, 02:09 AM
Morjana and I already posted them. ;)

um, where is it? I can't find it

jenks
December 1st, 2007, 02:33 AM
Great episode, loads of quality dialog in this.

darkrose
December 1st, 2007, 02:35 AM
He sent classified government research through an e-mail over the Internet to his sister...I mean come on an e-mail. It won't matter how much encryption you have there is still a very high risk of interception. I just don't understand why Rodney would make such a dumb mistake like that.

In "McKay and Mrs. Miller", it was established that Jeannie's essentially a contractor with the SGC. Presumably, they'd have set up some kind of VPN so that she could communicate with them. The point was that Wallace was desperate and was willing to take extraordinary measures to come up with a way to keep Sharon alive, and that he had pretty much unlimited resources to throw at it.

lostinspace
December 1st, 2007, 02:35 AM
Gosh. I finally saw Miller's Crossing. Twice. Kudos to Martin Gero especially for the unexpected plot twists. Also, it was a pleasant surprise to see so much ground covered for a character-centric episode. I hope Todd the Wraith lives on and am curious about the implications of the nanite research on Earth (I guess we'll see a bit of that in Outcast) as well as what happened to the post-Ori SGC / SG-1 in this time frame.

When Sheppard says "I can't" to McKay, I immediately thought "I can't quit you." :mckay::sheppard:
And *I* can't quit this show. S4 has been solid and This Mortal Coil looks stellar!

darkrose
December 1st, 2007, 02:47 AM
Sheppard talking someone into killing themselves was unforgiveable. I can't imagine Sheppard letting anyone feed themselves to a Wraith, especially after Shep himself knows how painful it is. Totally OOC.


I don't think that was OOC at all. We've known from since "Rising" that Sheppard will go to any lengths to save those he considers "his people", and we've known since "The Eye" that he's willing to kill to do so. (Leaving aside the fact that he's a soldier, and killing people is kind of in his job description.)

John has to live with knowing that he did the math and decided that Rodney's life was more important to him than Wallace's. Rodney has to live with knowing that John was willing to cross an ethical line for him. Wallace--well, in a way, he got off easy. He'd lost the only thing that mattered to him, and had he refused, he'd have been forced to live with the fact that he was responsible for another family losing their mother. Yes, it was chilling. It was meant to be, for everyone concerned.

bluealien
December 1st, 2007, 03:01 AM
Worst episode of the season so far.

Why is it the "good" guys seem to be able to stoop to any level but it's OK because they are just trying to save their team/friends whatever. But when someone else does this ie Wallace, then they are the bad guys and should be punished. Wallace was a parent desparately trying to save his daughter but of course he has to suffer the consequences for his "bad" actions while of course Sheppard doesn't.

Sheppard may as well have put a bullet in Wallaces head because either way he killed Wallace but I guess talking him into killing himself took any responsibility away from him. Do we know that Wallace even agreed to sacrifice himself or did Sheppard just feed him to the Wraith anyway.

How interesting that they were basically letting the Wraith starve to death, but hey when we need him lets just drag him out and ask him for help. I still don't know why the Wraith even agreed...again how convenient. Why should he trust anything they have to say. Rodneys line to the Wraith we don't want to kill you but we can't let you go bla bla bla, is just becoming so old. Firstly they are killing him because they are starving him to death, and again hasn't Todd already proved to Sheppard that he can be trusted by the fact that he called him a brother, and gave him the gift of life. Guess he is regretting that decision now.

Stephen Culp was the best thing about this ep. Rodney was mostly annoying and he couldnt even be bothered to try and save the life of a child, but was more interested in saving himself. Even if Wallace was going to kill them either way at least he could have tried to save the girl. I guess it was obvious that Wallace's daughter was going to die otherwise Sheppard wouldnt have been able to give his little speech to Wallace, and Todd wouldnt have gotten his meal and then Jeannie wouldn't have survived. Again how convenient for Wallace to oblidge .. or did he.

At least Wallace had the guts to admit what he did was wrong and accept responsiblity for his actions. I would like to see Sheppard at least admit what he did was wrong...but the writers never seem to go there. I can understand why Sheppard did what he did, just the same way I can see what drove Wallace to do what he did, but yet Wallace gets treated with contempt and Sheppard is still treated as the hero... There was a fine line between both their actions and I would like to see the writers admit this.

JackHarkness_Hot
December 1st, 2007, 03:05 AM
Well, this episode wasn't as bad as I thought it would have been. I gotta admit, I'm not a big fan of Earth-based episodes, NIDS, The Trust, et cetera, usually I just skip them cos they're boring IMO.

So, Henry Wallace... he was hot to say the least, can I feed on ya too? LOL joke aside though, he was selfish, his daughter initially dies and he didn't let Jeannie or Rodney go then she comes back alive and is of vegetative state and it's not good enough for him! You can't have your cake and eat it to and expect to have some left afterwards. Selfish git. Apart of me feels that he deserves the fate he had but another part of me believes he should have been facing life imprisonment instead. Though, pity we didn't get to see the Wraith feed on him though.

The banter between Rodney and Jeannie was cute to say the least. One question though, why was Ronan there? What was the point of him there? Also, at the start of the episode, why didn't the company just beam from SGC straight to the house, why beam to Vancouver then use a car to get to the house? Would have saved 5 seconds from the episode which could have been used to show the Wraith feeding on Wallace.

Use of Meredith... to me it lost all comedy value, excessive use is the diagnosis.

All in all, not a bad episode but not excellent either. 7.5/10 / B-

cavalierlwt
December 1st, 2007, 03:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This episode was not on par with the others so far this season. I couldn't help but think this was one of the 'we don't have any money this week' type of episodes. Just seeing the ease with which they can move people back and forth between SGA and Earth simply removes that great tension and fear you felt for SGA in the first season--alone, cutoff from Earth, stuck far, far away from home in a hostile galaxy with the Wraith.

Even with everything, they missed some chances to either involve Ronon in some fish-out-of-water type scenes on Earth, or they could have thrown SG-1 fans a little bit of a bone. It would have been great if Sam had come along and been involved, and even better if they had just a tiny cameo with any of SG-1 (Teal'c, Daniel, Mitchell) or General Landry. Just 20 seconds of a scene featuring any of them checking in on the situation would have made the SGC sort of more recognizable (for lack of a better term) and would have been a real treat. It was nice seeing Walter in the cafeteria though. Aside from that shot and perhaps the gateroom, it just didn't feel like the SGC.

The only real kudos I can throw out is the gutsy move with feeding the Wraith. That was a borderline controversial in the Stargate Universe. I kept expecting them to find some lighter way of handling it at the last moment, although I did note they minimized the gravity of it as much as possible by showing the resolution the way they did--just showing a body bag being wheeled out. At the very end I almost thought Sheppard was going to say they he wasn't able to talk Wallace into it, and that he wound up stunning him with a Zat gun and tossing him into the room. Now *that* would have been a truly badass and controversial reveal!!! Hey, who knows, maybe we'll find out later that that is how it went down!

Atlanis
December 1st, 2007, 03:09 AM
WOOO!
That was just increadable, every time there is a Mckay ep I keep finding new debths to Rodney it would have looked great on paper but David Hewlet brought it into realaty who would have thought that he (mckay) would have volantaired to be Wraithed (culled)
But we know what happended and as for John, that was just apart of the Dark side

Superbe ep all around

iolanda
December 1st, 2007, 03:14 AM
The ending was so dark, I do not know what to think about that. Have to re-watch the episode and make my mind later.

Stargate has lost a whole bunch of naïvety it had earlier.
Sheppards action was breath-taking.

jenks
December 1st, 2007, 03:15 AM
Worst episode of the season so far.

Why is it the "good" guys seem to be able to stoop to any level but it's OK because they are just trying to save their team/friends whatever. But when someone else does this ie Wallace, then they are the bad guys and should be punished. Wallace was a parent desparately trying to save his daughter but of course he has to suffer the consequences for his "bad" actions while of course Sheppard doesn't.


Who said it was OK? You draw your own conclusions from what you see, no one is telling you that Shep's actions are good and Wallace's are bad. Sheppard still has to live with the way he treated him, and he position he put him in, and I think that was made quite clear.

darkrose
December 1st, 2007, 03:15 AM
Shep had no right to push that man into suicide. Wallace should have been arrested and given a trial but Shep took the law into his own hands and basically was responsible for another man's demise.

Um...Sheppard is a career military officer. The U.S. doesn't have compulsory military service. Therefore, he chose a career where being responsible for other peoples' demise is kind of in the job description.

I'm also not sure where people are getting the idea that Wallace would have been given a trial, rather than disappeared into the SGC never to be heard from again. This guy knows about the Stargate Program. If he talks, and says, "Yes, actually--we've had contact with aliens, some of whom are trying to kill us, and the US, UK, French, Chinese and Russian governments all know but have kept it secret," the social and political fallout would be catastrophic. There's no reality in which the Powers That Be would let that happen.

g.o.d
December 1st, 2007, 03:26 AM
Holy crap, it was incredibly boring and predictable. I'm happy that there's a "forward" button. I can't imagine that I will be forced to watch this episode for 42 minutes

darkrose
December 1st, 2007, 03:28 AM
If the government is farming out alien tech to companies, you know they would have an active database to search. The idea that John Sheppard would be going through paper records is a joke.

Yeah, that was a WTF moment. 21st century, people--keep up.


Her husbands reaction. Lame. If it was me, I would have strangled Rodney. Without a doubt, I would have killed him.

Even knowing that he's your best chance for getting your wife back? Make sure Jeannie's safe, then strangle him.


Unsecured email. Give me a break. Rodney sends the replicator program to Earth for Jeannie's to look at, and NOBODY NOTICED???? GOOD GOD - SG1 has Presidential level security, but Google's gmail slips past them without a minor effort.

I assumed that it was a secured connection--the point was that Wallace had nearly unlimited resources to throw at things like monitoring the connection and acting when something anomolous (like a more-heavily-encrypted-than-usual message) came through.

JackHarkness_Hot
December 1st, 2007, 03:29 AM
I'm sure the IOA has established some sort of legal protocols, cos it just wouldn't be like the IOA not to interfere in regards to civilians knowing and using the Stargate knowledge for own causes.

Crimes committed against SGC and its personnels tends to be dealt with swiftly, telling someone to die is not justice. I can't exactly remember but the SGC must have a law body that deals with issues like these or else, Sheppard wouldn't say on official papers, the Wraith attacked and killed Wallace. The SGC answers directly to the US President therefore, more than likely, there has to be a law body that deals with civilians using Stargate knowledge for their own causes without authorisation.

Like where does captured Goa'uld go? I think Wallace would have went to the same place as the captured Goa'uld are kept.

Poubelle Man
December 1st, 2007, 03:31 AM
Good episode,but it kinda reminded me of Adrian Conrad's storyline

JackHarkness_Hot
December 1st, 2007, 03:33 AM
Holy crap, it was incredibly boring and predictable. I'm happy that there's a "forward" button. I can't imagine that I will be forced to watch this episode for 42 minutes
That's what I do, usually I fast-forward bits first time rund then rewatch it just to say, I've seen it :)

g.o.d
December 1st, 2007, 03:35 AM
That's what I do, usually I fast-forward bits first time rund then rewatch it just to say, I've seen it :)


I won't watch this episode anymore. It has been deleted

JackHarkness_Hot
December 1st, 2007, 03:44 AM
I won't watch this episode anymore. It has been deleted


Very well, LOL


Personally I'm in the mood for some classic SG-1 moments... ooh a modified story for Atlantis --

Hive Ships and Cruisers swooping down onto an offworld planet, a temple structure in the middle of Kansas-like fields, which contains an Ancient headsucker and Atlantis teams defending it from the Wraith with bazookas and M-41 carbines shooting at the Wraith ships. it is decided that it's better to get the info and discard the tech, Sheppard gets his head sucked so the Wraith can't obtain it then McKay blowing the structure up afterwards with C4 charges, and they all escape through the gate.


In case some of the readers don't know where this is from, it's from Stargate SG-1 - (7x21) The Lost City [Part 1].

Chailyn
December 1st, 2007, 04:15 AM
Thank god we didn't get a My Little Ponys, "moral of the story" ending. The villian wasn't the "big bad", which made it all the more gripping. I really thought this episode would give us another cheap, convenient evil baddie to hate/sacerfice, but it didn't. This was about having to make a decision from a lot of bad options. Sometimes that happens in life. The best stories aren't meant to confirm your worldview. I'm also glad that they didn't take the easy way out with the Wraith. We knew that if we kept him he'd either starve or we'd have to feed him. It's that simple, folks. I thought they'd have a quick fix, having some nameless baddie get wraithed by his/her own foolishness, maybe show a Genii stumble into the Wraith somehow. They definately didn't pull any punches.

Even though I didn't agree morally with Sheppard's actions, I'm so glad they went there. The best characters don't come out squeaky clean. This is the first time for me that the Sheppard character has broken out of his stereotype, and that interests me.

I really, really hope that the writers don't pull a reset after all of this. I want to see the effect on Sheppard's character. I will be very disappointed if this doesn't take a toll on him. Now, that would be scary, imo.

Integrabyte
December 1st, 2007, 04:30 AM
Saw the episode twice and I liked it a lot. I never thought I would see the day the SGC will house .... Very sad ending tho. A father will do a lot ....

Integrabyte
December 1st, 2007, 05:04 AM
My favourite moment in the episode ....



http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/29/vlcsnap479446kw4.th.png (http://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap479446kw4.png)
http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/521/vlcsnap479522cy4.th.png (http://img48.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap479522cy4.png)
http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/3190/vlcsnap481285yb4.th.png (http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap481285yb4.png)
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/8334/vlcsnap481942hp0.th.png (http://img50.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap481942hp0.png)





I think it is the best S4 had to offer so far....the ending .....*shouting so everyone can hear downstairs*

Southern Red
December 1st, 2007, 05:10 AM
I had been looking forward to this episode all season, but now I have to admit to feeling let down. So much wasted potential.

The whole idea of Ronon and John on Earth in suits just had me smiling, but all we got to see of them was long moments of sitting around and a brief attempted rescue. Wasted. Though Ronon's shoulder holster was almost worth it. And I would have loved to have seen some dialogue between John and Madison.

The whole tapping on keyboards thing with Rodney and Jeannie went on way too long. It seems that could have been done with a montage and then there would have been more time to show Ronon and John out on the streets, hitting McDonalds, shopping for suits...anything. And by the way, John's perfectly tailored suit made my toes curl, but wouldn't slacks and a polo shirt have been less time consuming? Does the SGC have a Nordstrom's on site, and boy do their tailors work fast. Especially with Ronon's coat. That didn't come off the rack. ;)

The acting as usual was superb. The Hewletts are a very talented family, and JF's acting during the scenes with Wallace and McKay was some of the best he's ever done. Sheppard proved once again that he would do anything for his family. I put his morally ambiguous actions with Wallace here right up there with his actions in The Storm/The Eye. He is one ruthless SOB when he needs to be, and I have missed that element of his character lately. He can make the tough decisions even though it tears him apart, but when it comes to his new family all bets are off. I think he just couldn't lose anyone else, so he had to do what he did to save Rodney. He just made the hair stand up on the back of my neck in that scene with Wallace, and that's always a good thing.

The wraith on Earth? Bad idea in a long line of bad ideas.

Overall, disappointing along with most of the rest of S4. But TMC and Weir's return. There's always hope.

Integrabyte
December 1st, 2007, 05:15 AM
This wasn't a leisure trip for Ronon. I mean John wants to "punish" him for wanting to have lunch. It would be murder from TPTB to let John and Ronon run around Chinatown, whilst Mckay and his sister are kidnapped. There was no time for fun. This was like the Pegasus Project for Daniel. He went on a mission, Ronon went on a mission.


It seems the tables have turned. I seem to like this episode and most of you hate it :P. You can't please everyone :D

prion
December 1st, 2007, 05:20 AM
is there a preview for the next episode? I'm curious

Both Scifi and MGM have already posted them (Yahoo's a bit behind). www.mgm.com/stargate and www.scifi.com/atlantis. Very easy to spot..

someone said

If the government is farming out alien tech to companies, you know they would have an active database to search. The idea that John Sheppard would be going through paper records is a joke

Alas, despite the pre-conceived notion that everything is accessible on the computer, it's not. computers seem tohave created MORE paper than before! But yes, sorting through paper when they should have had a tech on a laptop would h ave made more sense, but then sense sorta got tossed out the window when Barrett and Mckay went and played the calvary without any backup.



Who said it was OK? You draw your own conclusions from what you see, no one is telling you that Shep's actions are good and Wallace's are bad. Sheppard still has to live with the way he treated him, and he position he put him in, and I think that was made quite clear.

It certainly wasn't a decision that Sheppard made lightly and you could see it bothered him. Personally I would have preferred the episode not end with the light banter, but with a darker tone, considering what happened. And it's not like decisions like this haven't been seen before on SG1. In that SG1 episode with Rene Auberwhatever (Odo from Star Trek), Jack shut the iris KNOWING the guy was right on his heels, so in effect, he murdered him. While I can understand his reasoning, didn't mean I agreed with it.

jelgate
December 1st, 2007, 05:22 AM
This wasn't a leisure trip for Ronon. I mean John wants to "punish" him for wanting to have lunch. It would be murder from TPTB to let John and Ronon run around Chinatown, whilst Mckay and his sister are kidnapped. There was no time for fun. This was like the Pegasus Project for Daniel. He went on a mission, Ronon went on a mission.


It seems the tables have turned. I seem to like this episode and most of you hate it :P. You can't please everyone :D
There was thing about this episode that annoyed me like crazy. I just couldn't standTin Man Commercial

Mana
December 1st, 2007, 05:24 AM
There was thing about this episode that annoyed me like crazy. I just couldn't standTin Man Commercial

lol. I wholeheartedly concur.

Integrabyte
December 1st, 2007, 05:25 AM
There was thing about this episode that annoyed me like crazy. I just couldn't standTin Man Commercial

...I was too busy with my Kleenex to notice that ....:D



...yes I am a guy and I cried :P...

Ruffles
December 1st, 2007, 05:28 AM
Back on Atlantis, Rodney talks to Sheppard about what he did. Rodney is not happy with what John did but still thanks him for saving his life. (Even more unhappy I am. I would have prefered no thanks but just a... ok, I undestand why you did it)

The back to friend so fast and good look discussion ( even look!) was not welcome here after such a moral dilemma. I know Atlantis is supposed to have funny moments but I'm sure fans can deal with a tense ending between characters once in a while.

To the bolded statements, I saw that completely differently. I didn't see Rodney as unhappy. I saw him amazed. "I can't believe what you did." translated to me as "I am overwhelmed that you would be willing to do something like that for me."

As to the funny moment at the end, as another poster said, that's how they relate to each other - with jokes and sarcasm. These are two men that don't discuss feelings EVER, and they needed to move back to familiar ground.


The acting as usual was superb. The Hewletts are a very talented family, and JF's acting during the scenes with Wallace and McKay was some of the best he's ever done. Sheppard proved once again that he would do anything for his family. I put his morally ambiguous actions with Wallace here right up there with his actions in The Storm/The Eye. He is one ruthless SOB when he needs to be, and I have missed that element of his character lately. He can make the tough decisions even though it tears him apart, but when it comes to his new family all bets are off. I think he just couldn't lose anyone else, so he had to do what he did to save Rodney. He just made the hair stand up on the back of my neck in that scene with Wallace, and that's always a good thing.

I so totally agree with you here especially on the bolded part. He does what needs to be done.

Integrabyte
December 1st, 2007, 05:34 AM
As to the funny moment at the end, as another poster said, that's how they relate to each other - with jokes and sarcasm. These are two men that don't discuss feelings EVER, and they needed to move back to familiar ground.

John did say he is not very good at expressing his feelings. We know McKay cannot make a phrase when it comes to emotions so in a way they are the same.

Turning now to the conversation itself, in my opinion, Rodney is shocked how far Sheppard would go for him. I mean we know Rodney would build a nuke from shoe laces if it would save John but so far we haven't actually seen how John would react to certain situations. The end emphasizes John's leadership skills BUT the cost is more than it should be...

UNRE4L
December 1st, 2007, 05:50 AM
Good episode, I was starting to lose hope in Atlantis.

At first I also thought that she hadnt been injected with the nanites, and it was a basless threat, but what do you know...

The thing I found disturbing about this episode was how Sheppard talked that guy into being food for the wraith. That was wrong on so many levels, and I found it morally wrong.
Hope there will be some guilt issues on Sheppards conscious.

bluealien
December 1st, 2007, 05:52 AM
The whole tapping on keyboards thing with Rodney and Jeannie went on way too long. It seems that could have been done with a montage and then there would have been more time to show Ronon and John out on the streets, hitting McDonalds, shopping for suits...anything

I agree, the back and forth typing went on way too long. Out of the whole McKay family the only one that kept my interest was Jeannie herself. Hubby and the rest, including Rodney were mostly annoying.



And by the way, John's perfectly tailored suit made my toes curl, but wouldn't slacks and a polo shirt have been less time consuming? Does the SGC have a Nordstrom's on site, and boy do their tailors work fast. Especially with Ronon's coat. That didn't come off the rack. ;)

Seeing them both in suits just looked odd. Shep's trousers had the drainpipe look which I didn't find appealing.


The acting as usual was superb. The Hewletts are a very talented family, and JF's acting during the scenes with Wallace and McKay was some of the best he's ever done.

I have been waiting to get a good meaty part for Shep for ages, but this is not what I had in mind... Shep cohercing someone into killing himself was not what I expected.


Sheppard proved once again that he would do anything for his family. I put his morally ambiguous actions with Wallace here right up there with his actions in The Storm/The Eye. He is one ruthless SOB when he needs to be, and I have missed that element of his character lately.


There has always been an element of ruthlesness in Sheppard and I'm aware that is part of his character. What I don't like is the double standards. Just because Sheppard wants to protect his "family" doesn't give him a licence to do what he wants. Wallace was basically doing the exact same thing.. trying to save his family.. but yet from the beginning we are led to believe that he is wrong, and pretty much deserved what he got. Well why not the same for Sheppard. They were both driven to take extreme actions to save their families, but that should have been acknowledged. Why is Wallace deemed to be punished and Sheppard not, or at least admit that what he did was wrong, but that he has to live with it. If Sheppard had admitted that to Rodney in his quarters I wouldn't have such a problem with it .. but all I saw was him shirking all responsibility.


He can make the tough decisions even though it tears him apart, but when it comes to his new family all bets are off. I think he just couldn't lose anyone else, so he had to do what he did to save Rodney. He just made the hair stand up on the back of my neck in that scene with Wallace, and that's always a good thing.

The thing is though that Sheppard's actions seem to get applauded when he is saving one of his "family", but when he takes the tough decision in Lifeline to not save Weir he gets blasted. So as much as I want Sheppard to continue making tough decisons I don't want him to sink to new lows to do so.


The wraith on Earth? Bad idea in a long line of bad ideas.
The Wraith scenes were one of the best things about the ep for me but the way they were letting him starve to death didnt impress me. They could have at least dropped him off on some deserted planet somewhere and given him a fighting chance. Rodneys pep talk to him was just unbelievable. Why would this Wraith do anything to help them after the way they treated him. So will they be back to square one again now with no way to feed him. So again he's back to starving to death unless Sheppard meets up with some unfortunate that pisses him off or talks someone else into killing themselves.



Overall, disappointing along with most of the rest of S4. But TMC and Weir's return. There's always hope.

This is the first disappointing episode for me so far. The rest of the season has been great. Can't say I am all that excited about seeing

repliweir next week tough.

jelgate
December 1st, 2007, 05:56 AM
Good episode, I was starting to lose hope in Atlantis.

At first I also thought that she hadnt been injected with the nanites, and it was a basless threat, but what do you know...

The thing I found disturbing about this episode was how Sheppard talked that guy into being food for the wraith. That was wrong on so many levels, and I found it morally wrong.
Hope there will be some guilt issues on Sheppards conscious.
Of coruse it was morally wrong. It shows more about how dark the show is. Its the unethical questions that are the most interesting and shows just how deeply he cares for his team

tjo85
December 1st, 2007, 06:08 AM
I agree with everyone who thought this episode left much to be desired. I really did think the acting, especially by David Hewlett, was superb and his sister brings new heights to the McKay character.

However, talk about your inconsistencies with the series and SG1!! The IOA, General Landry, Col Carter, and probably not even the normal LTC Shepperd character would have NEVER let a Wraith travel to Earth (not even one as cool as Christopher Heyerdahl). I'm sorry, but I could totally have seen them saying "Sorry, Rodney, but you're sister's screwed."

Personally, when he said he needed help, I was hoping that Carter and Zelenka would come through the gate.

However, like everyone else seems to think, next week's episode looks like it'll make up for anything this week's was lacking.

jenks
December 1st, 2007, 06:12 AM
I agree with everyone who thought this episode left much to be desired. I really did think the acting, especially by David Hewlett, was superb and his sister brings new heights to the McKay character.

However, talk about your inconsistencies with the series and SG1!! The IOA, General Landry, Col Carter, and probably not even the normal LTC Shepperd character would have NEVER let a Wraith travel to Earth (not even one as cool as Christopher Heyerdahl). I'm sorry, but I could totally have seen them saying "Sorry, Rodney, but you're sister's screwed."



I don't see why you think that, they've let System Lords into the SGC before...

Integrabyte
December 1st, 2007, 06:19 AM
I don't see why you think that, they've let System Lords into the SGC before...

...this Wraith was an ally. Gave John his life back, stood and watched his hive go boom, should I go on?

jenks
December 1st, 2007, 06:22 AM
For me? No. Read my post again.

doylefan22
December 1st, 2007, 06:23 AM
Wallace was basically doing the exact same thing.. trying to save his family.. but yet from the beginning we are led to believe that he is wrong, and pretty much deserved what he got. Well why not the same for Sheppard. They were both driven to take extreme actions to save their families, but that should have been acknowledged. Why is Wallace deemed to be punished and Sheppard not, or at least admit that what he did was wrong, but that he has to live with it. If Sheppard had admitted that to Rodney in his quarters I wouldn't have such a problem with it .. but all I saw was him shirking all responsibility.

But that was one of the good parts about the episode - Wallace was painted as a bad guy up until you realised his reasoning for kidnapping them and then things became much less certain. I thought that was a great reveal (not original granted but used well nonetheless) and suddenly had you as an audience feeling sorry for him and sympathising with his reasoning in way that completely changed your feelings for him. Steven Culp's acting did a lot to enhance this so kudos to him.

I also liked the way the audience's shift in attitude was reflected with Jeannie in that she wanted to help him whilst Rodney was typically more about looking out for himself and those he's close to rather than the stranger who'd kidnapped them. I thought it was quite true how Jeannie noted that Rodney couldn't possibly understand the man's desperation because he didn't have any children of his own.

In the end it seemed to me that Sheppard gave Wallace the option and Wallace took it (understandably given he had nothing really to live for and could redeem himself by saving Jeannie). It is obvious from his manner at the end that he wasn't comfortable with what he did but I don't see it as black and white, straight out wrong. It wasn't a nice thing to have to contemplate but neither outcome was particularly appealing and I think he and Wallace both agreed that in the absence of a better choice, Jeannie had more to live for... After all Sheppard is a soldier and well used to putting value on life.

I really enjoyed those shades of grey and thought it made a good episode really interesting on a deeper level.

HenryHayes
December 1st, 2007, 06:24 AM
It was a good episode but I do not like the fact that Ronons first trip to Earth was based on something so serious. Ronons first trip to Earth definitely should have been one of those comedic filler episodes & John takes him to I dont know Disney Land.

Integrabyte
December 1st, 2007, 06:25 AM
For me? No. Read my post again.


Sorry mate, wrong quote :P.

The_Carpenter
December 1st, 2007, 06:28 AM
At the end of the day John is military and like O'Neill has probably done some damn distasteful things in his career, I don't really understand why people expect military characters on the show to constantly smell like roses to use mayborns expression. John did what was needed to be done to stop Mckay sacrificing himself, because Mckay is to valuable to the SGC and the Expedition to be sacrificed when there is another option.

It may be hard to stomach but it was for the greater good, and it won't be the first nor the last time a call like this will have to be made.

HenryHayes
December 1st, 2007, 06:36 AM
I think there is a plot hole in this episode. With the fact that in Common Ground John let the Wraith feed on him so he could get the strength & kick some ass yet at the end of the Episode that same Wraith gave John his life back & then some. Did the writers magically forget this ? Why did no one bring up that that same Wraith has shown that he can also give back the life force he takes & still be fine. Stupid writers & unnecessary plot holes.

Integrabyte
December 1st, 2007, 06:39 AM
I think there is a plot hole in this episode. With the fact that in Common Ground John let the Wraith feed on him so he could get the strength & kick some ass yet at the end of the Episode that same Wraith gave John his life back & then some. Did the writers magically forget this ? Why did no one bring up that that same Wraith has shown that he can also give back the life force he takes & still be fine.

There was no guarantee the Wraith will give the life back and in Common Ground John did not let him feed, the Wraith helped himself whilst John was sleeping. The Wraith attacked the Genii and then he fed on them. By doing this, he could give Sheppard his life back without starving himself. Bottom line, he fed more than once...in this episode he fed only once....

ToasterOnFire
December 1st, 2007, 06:40 AM
A decent ep, and I'm glad they went a darker route with Shep. I would have preferred if the ep had stayed dark at the end instead of:

"Hey, did you just convince a guy to suffer an unpleasant death to save my sister?"
"Yep."
"Okay, let's go get a sandwich." *cue soothing Atlantis music*

That took me out of it. Will the writers hit the big reset button on this? Maybe, wouldn't surprise me.

Funny how everyone can talk about Weir with zero emotional response. It's like she was just some science project gone awry instead of a friend and comrade who nearly died and may be suffering something worse than death right now. :mckay:

I would have rather heard about or seen Teyla instead of Walter.

HenryHayes
December 1st, 2007, 06:40 AM
There was no guarantee the Wraith will give the life back

I think he would have to show that hes not such a bad guy & they do want the same thing in the end. Ah well thats the writers for you.

tjo85
December 1st, 2007, 06:42 AM
I don't see why you think that, they've let System Lords into the SGC before...

I think it's because the Gou'ald already knew the location of Earth. If memory serves (and I might be wrong), the Wraith still don't know where Earth is or how to get there.

And as for this Wraith being an ally, I just don't think we can see him as a clear cut case of bad guy gone good. Once the replicators are dealt with, "all bets are off".

Integrabyte
December 1st, 2007, 06:47 AM
I think it's because the Gou'ald already knew the location of Earth. If memory serves (and I might be wrong), the Wraith still don't know where Earth is or how to get there.

And as for this Wraith being an ally, I just don't think we can see him as a clear cut case of bad guy gone good. Once the replicators are dealt with, "all bets are off".

...until all bets are off, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

HenryHayes
December 1st, 2007, 06:50 AM
If memory serves (and I might be wrong), the Wraith still don't know where Earth is or how to get there

I believe the Wraith does know where Earth is but they are kind of pre occupied with other things at the moment. Remember there was one episode where the Wraith captured Ronon & McKay just so McKay can see them doing damage to Earth if they got there.

rarocks24
December 1st, 2007, 06:53 AM
I believe the Wraith does know where Earth is but they are kind of pre occupied with other things at the moment. Remember there was one episode where the Wraith captured Ronon & McKay just so McKay can see them doing damage to Earth if they got there.

lol....

Those Wraith got destroyed. They left their race to starve to death while they gorged on Earthlings (or drones rather, hehe!!! :D). They never shared the information with anybody or we'd be seeing hive ships flying around with modified hyperdrives. The interesting part is, with depleted feeding grounds from being woken up too early, advanced hyperdrive technology would only cause more friction and infighting amongst the Wraith.

mckaychick
December 1st, 2007, 06:56 AM
I thought that was a great episode.

gebtkd
December 1st, 2007, 07:09 AM
This is not a plot hole, remember that in CG, the wraith did feed on Sheppard to find the strenght to fight the Geni but before he gave Sheppard's his life back he had defeated several Geni and fed on them as well, so at that time he was much stronger from several feeding

O'Neill is funny
December 1st, 2007, 07:13 AM
That was a terrible episode that left a foul taste in my mouth, especially the end where the wraith gets his forced volunteer (yes forced, they would not have taken no as an answer). At the end all i could do was stare at the tv....:(

Southern Red
December 1st, 2007, 07:19 AM
John did say he is not very good at expressing his feelings. We know McKay cannot make a phrase when it comes to emotions so in a way they are the same.

Turning now to the conversation itself, in my opinion, Rodney is shocked how far Sheppard would go for him. I mean we know Rodney would build a nuke from shoe laces if it would save John but so far we haven't actually seen how John would react to certain situations. The end emphasizes John's leadership skills BUT the cost is more than it should be...

That's what I though too. Remember in Irresponsible *sorry to bring that one up* how shocked they all were when John gunned Kolya down?


At the end of the day John is military and like O'Neill has probably done some damn distasteful things in his career, I don't really understand why people expect military characters on the show to constantly smell like roses to use mayborns expression. John did what was needed to be done to stop Mckay sacrificing himself, because Mckay is to valuable to the SGC and the Expedition to be sacrificed when there is another option.

It may be hard to stomach but it was for the greater good, and it won't be the first nor the last time a call like this will have to be made.

This is the whole essence of John's character. You understand it if you understand the military mindset and hate his decision if you do not. Sometimes it is hard to do the right thing, and these guys make those hard decisions so we don't have to.

And unlike some others here, I believe he takes total responsibility for his actions. And one other thing, I don't think his decision regarding Weir in Adrift was inconsistent. He already said he considers her one of his family. He was just doing what he knew she would have wanted which I'm sure they discussed after her former experience with the nanites. I would pull the plug on anyone in my own family if the time came without a second thought.

Fenrir Foxz
December 1st, 2007, 07:27 AM
Definitely my favorite of the season. So good. My heart skipped a beat seeing a Wraith in the SGC. And the preview for next week... delicious.

The first time a Wraith sets foot on Earth, I bet he was wishing he could pin point Earths location so he could get there in the future...

I really enjoyed this epp even though it reminded me abit of the SG-1 episode where Sam Carter was abducted by("Ninjas" lol) Adrian Conrad...

The character of Roney Mckay definately grew from the events of this epp...

Shan Bruce Lee
December 1st, 2007, 07:27 AM
That was a terrible episode that left a foul taste in my mouth, especially the end where the wraith gets his forced volunteer (yes forced, they would not have taken no as an answer). At the end all i could do was stare at the tv....:(

Saying "forced" is a bad assumption. I'm sorry. You can speculate all you want but it doesn't change the fact that there was absolutely nothing to suggest that Wallace was forced to do anything and we have every reason to believe that he volunteered.

Jumper_One
December 1st, 2007, 07:27 AM
another nice episode, this time Earth-centered. I didn't expect anything special and I liked it. the beginning was so Rodney, he can't figure out how to solve some problem and Zelenka's line really fits. also I thought it was cool to see the SGC and Agent Barrett again (still not sure how much I hate the NID). Ronon didn't get much to do other than a few funny lines like when they're in the elevator and getting out of the car. I think they cut his comment about BSG, that's a shame

Steven Culp I really liked, he played a villain who's actually just trying to save his daughter. Rodney gets kidnapped of course, that sure was no surprise. I always have to smile when Jeanie calls him Meredith though, and the way McKay shows his ego throughout this ep is just classic. it was good to see how Jeanie could relate to Wallace since she also has a daughter but Rodney just wants to get outta there. btw what were those guns these guys shot them with? sure didn't look like Zat's to me but ultimately had the same effect

then of course the scene with Walter and Ronon, it was great to see the little fella again and listen to his stories about O'Neill and some Admiral while Ronon obviously doesn't care and is just bored. the first Wraith sets foot on Earth, why didn't they bring Carter? oh yeah she's in command of Atlantis. well I expected to see Sam but it didn't bug me that much really

the end's maybe a little too convenient. Rodney manages to talk Todd into helping him, Shep convinces Wallace to let Wraith feed on him (we really got to see a different Shep in this ep imo). so did Wallace's daughter got cured too? strangely I didn't miss Teyla, IDK why but noticed that Weir's name came up again (and O'Neill's). Sam I missed somehow but I guess that's just the way it's gonna be. Keller wouldn't have anything do, so her absence was fine

not much more to say. overall another decent ep, it's not my favorite of s4 but it's certainly in my top 10 ;)

doylefan22
December 1st, 2007, 07:37 AM
so did Wallace's daughter got cured too?

No. McKay said that due to a manufacturing fault the nanites basically ran out of juice whilst part way through repairing her arteries and she bled to death.

Integrabyte
December 1st, 2007, 07:38 AM
No. McKay said that due to a manufacturing fault the nanites basically ran out of juice whilst part way through repairing her arteries and she bled to death.


...which is sad...really. The poor guy ...not only he lost his daughter....

Lord batchi ball
December 1st, 2007, 07:43 AM
I believe the Wraith does know where Earth is but they are kind of pre occupied with other things at the moment. Remember there was one episode where the Wraith captured Ronon & McKay just so McKay can see them doing damage to Earth if they got there.

Maybe but IMO the Reps are a bigger threat, they hate humans and they have Ancient tech, that means they could get to earth and attack it.

As I read the forum there seems to be a lot of people that like this episode and some who don't but what everyone agrees on is that those tin man commercials were annoying now I am not going to watch (I wan't going to in the first place) it because those ******* commercials.

mckaychick
December 1st, 2007, 07:44 AM
yeah the tin man preview is every other second which is really annoying

Jumper_One
December 1st, 2007, 07:44 AM
No. McKay said that due to a manufacturing fault the nanites basically ran out of juice whilst part way through repairing her arteries and she bled to death.

in that case it's really convenient that Wallace sacrificed himself

SGFerrit
December 1st, 2007, 07:52 AM
Something even harder to swallow was seeing Shepard talk the guy into sacrifcing himself to the wraith so it could continue it's work to save Jeannie, I suppose it was the easy way out for the writers to get the wraith a home cooked meal...

'Easy' way out? I would hardly say that was easy... It added, IMO, a totally new side to Shep's character, and show that heroes can do pretty bad things too... This season is making our heroes look more and more like anti-heroes, with Shep this week, and the revelation in The Seer that hundreds of thousands of people are dying because of their actions... I think it's excellent.

I thought it was a great episode. I felt very sorry for Sharon, and I'm happy Jeannie is still alive. I can't believe a Wraith finally got to Earth!

justhere1971
December 1st, 2007, 07:58 AM
I am a little undecided on this episode. I liked Jeanie, I knew I would. I liked that Rodney actually showed so much emotion towards his sister. I liked the fact that even though he'd sacrifice his life for John, he's actually surprised by the fact that John would do almost anything to save him. Shows a little vulnerable side to him that warmed me.
I was completely freaked out during the scene w/ Wallace & John. JF's acting, was superb. It chilled me to hear him talk to Wallace like that in such a calm manner about basically going on a suicide mission. The darker depths of John's character I've missed very much.
The whole cafeteria bit w/ Ronon, really why do they treat him like that. He has so much for to contribute. Same goes for oh I forget his name.
Since I was spoiler free, it was good to watch. Didn't have any anticipation, so wasn't too disappointed.

FireCat
December 1st, 2007, 08:04 AM
I love the Hewletts together, but this wasn't the right vehicle. The bad stuff:

Too much drag time typing on keyboards, arguing about escaping.

A sick girl who didn't look sick at all.

A distraught dad, who didn't come across as all that distraught.

No "fish outta water" scenes for Ronon, so why was he even here? The scene with Walter was stinky bad.

I hate Barrett, and I'd never trust him after the Ba'al incident. Should have been Major Davis or Col. Dixon instead.

Where was Carter? Isn't she the Replicator code queen? Or did she forget that when she took over Atlantis and lost her smarts?

Sheppard convincing a grieving dad to kill himself. Thanks writers, now I hate the guy. If any of us helped a friend by getting someone who wronged us to kill themselves, we'd be in the "Big House", but Sheppard is next seen reading comics. I would rather have seen Wallace offer to help (since he had been working with nanites), and offer himself to Todd on his own terms. THAT I could have lived with.

The GOOD part:

NO KELLER THIS WEEK! WOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Major_Griff
December 1st, 2007, 08:20 AM
I think he would have to show that hes not such a bad guy & they do want the same thing in the end. Ah well thats the writers for you.

The wraith was dying of starvation. If he life sucked Rodney he wouldn't give it back out of sheer self preservation. And they did mention. John says "You think he could just take what he needs and give it back? He won't do it" or something like that. If you were starving to death and I gave you a hamburger but said you had to give it back to me, you'd either say hell no and eat it or give it back and die.

kymeric
December 1st, 2007, 08:23 AM
I don't like to bash this show, because it seems to have enough detractors as it is, but I definitely did not like the rest of the episode after the point where Sheppard talked with the guy about all the problems he had caused. Sure, he was a potential murderer, but let him be tried and sentenced after he commited the crime. At that instant, all he could be charged with is attempted murder, something I do not think gets you the death penalty even in the States. There should have been a better way. t.

Do you think bad people think theyre evil? No one thinks they are evil. Theyre just trapped with no way out, emotionally unstable, and the only choices are really effed up. You do what you gotta do.


Its not nice to think about but all the military personell have killed alot of ppl. Even before the show. Heck, Oneill was special ops, hes prolly killed hundreds of people personally.

doylefan22
December 1st, 2007, 08:24 AM
Where was Carter? Isn't she the Replicator code queen? Or did she forget that when she took over Atlantis and lost her smarts?

Practically? It was an easy one to write Amanda out of considering she's only to be in a set number of episodes. An in episode explanation would have been nice though.


Sheppard convincing a grieving dad to kill himself. Thanks writers, now I hate the guy.

Actually, oddly enough, I like him more. Or at least I find him more interesting whereas there's been times in the past when his character was bordering on dull.

I agree about Keller though - don't hate her but she's just not that interesting so didn't miss her at all.

Pegasus_SGA
December 1st, 2007, 08:39 AM
Worst episode of the season so far.

Why is it the "good" guys seem to be able to stoop to any level but it's OK because they are just trying to save their team/friends whatever. But when someone else does this ie Wallace, then they are the bad guys and should be punished. Wallace was a parent desparately trying to save his daughter but of course he has to suffer the consequences for his "bad" actions while of course Sheppard doesn't.

I don't think the 'good guys' stoop to any level, blue. Usually they take the high ground and eps are left where justice has been done and the good guys win out over the bad. Not this time. The ep wasn't as black and white as some of the eps we're used to seeing. Yes, he was only trying to save his daughter, but look at what he did? He kidnapped and hunted down two people to save one life. Irrespective of his desperation, he realised (full well) his actions were going to cost him dearly, and it did. It was his choice to kidnap two people, his decision to injure another, then hold them against their will and inject a substance into one of his 'victims' that could potentially kill them, just to get what he wanted. While I empathise with him having to watch someone dying of Cancer (been there too many times to count), but the fact is, desperate or not, he was willing to kill someone to save someone he loved.

We don't know that Sheppard won't be subjected to disciplinary actions, nor that he'll come up smelling of roses. I certainly don't want things to 'go back to norma'. I want to see guilt and ramifications of actions, and how it's brought up later on. I certainly don't want it swept under the rug. We know from his past actions that he always holds himself accountable for tactical decisions made. I can't see how this time will be any different.



Sheppard may as well have put a bullet in Wallaces head because either way he killed Wallace but I guess talking him into killing himself took any responsibility away from him. Do we know that Wallace even agreed to sacrifice himself or did Sheppard just feed him to the Wraith anyway.


No, Wallace made the choice. Shep simply 'guilted' him into cleaning up the mess that Wallace created in the first place. We don't know if Shep forced him or he did it willingly. It's suggested and I'm sure Shep said 'volunteer' a food source for the Wraith.



How interesting that they were basically letting the Wraith starve to death, but hey when we need him lets just drag him out and ask him for help. I still don't know why the Wraith even agreed...again how convenient. Why should he trust anything they have to say. Rodneys line to the Wraith we don't want to kill you but we can't let you go bla bla bla, is just becoming so old. Firstly they are killing him because they are starving him to death, and again hasn't Todd already proved to Sheppard that he can be trusted by the fact that he called him a brother, and gave him the gift of life. Guess he is regretting that decision now.


Well, as Shep said, they needed volunteers. Who was likely to volunteer? It's a temporary reliance, both sides are using each other. The Wraith agreed to helping him, because it was in his best interest. Rodney just needed to find what pushed the Wraith's buttons, and incentive, and he found it.

The thing is the Wraith can't be trusted. Yes Shep and the Wraith shared an alliance, but it was a means to an end Nothing more, nothing less. If either side renagues on the commitment, then both of them would have no problem pulling the trigger on each other (so to speak). They respect each other, but that's about as far as the trust goes (imo).


Stephen Culp was the best thing about this ep. Rodney was mostly annoying and he couldnt even be bothered to try and save the life of a child, but was more interested in saving himself. Even if Wallace was going to kill them either way at least he could have tried to save the girl. I guess it was obvious that Wallace's daughter was going to die otherwise Sheppard wouldnt have been able to give his little speech to Wallace, and Todd wouldnt have gotten his meal and then Jeannie wouldn't have survived. Again how convenient for Wallace to oblidge .. or did he.

Why would he want to after what Wallace did? Kidnap him and his sister, threaten them... would you want to help someone who's done that to a member of your family? I wondered if Jeannie was actually suffering from Stockholme syndrome half way through the ep, agreeing to help. Do we know what happened to their dad? Maybe she built up empathy for him? Rodney is not one to be manipulated that easily. He was still pissed off at that point.



At least Wallace had the guts to admit what he did was wrong and accept responsiblity for his actions. I would like to see Sheppard at least admit what he did was wrong...but the writers never seem to go there. I can understand why Sheppard did what he did, just the same way I can see what drove Wallace to do what he did, but yet Wallace gets treated with contempt and Sheppard is still treated as the hero... There was a fine line between both their actions and I would like to see the writers admit this.

Why would he though? He has to deal with it, and he will in his own way. he did what was necessary to save a life. I didn't think at the end of the ep, that Shep was feeling very heroic though.


Who said it was OK? You draw your own conclusions from what you see, no one is telling you that Shep's actions are good and Wallace's are bad. Sheppard still has to live with the way he treated him, and he position he put him in, and I think that was made quite clear.

Agreed.





It seems the tables have turned. I seem to like this episode and most of you hate it :P. You can't please everyone :D

Scary isn't it, babe? ;) :P :D



To the bolded statements, I saw that completely differently. I didn't see Rodney as unhappy. I saw him amazed. "I can't believe what you did." translated to me as "I am overwhelmed that you would be willing to do something like that for me."

I agree, Rodney seemed shocked and a bit overwhelmed that Shep put himself in that position for him. I really loved these types of moments between them. Normally it's the snarky banter (which I love), but it's nice seeing this side of their friendship to.


As to the funny moment at the end, as another poster said, that's how they relate to each other - with jokes and sarcasm. These are two men that don't discuss feelings EVER, and they needed to move back to familiar ground.

It's called gallows humour. :D I don't know of any man that likes to discuss feelings with each other. :lol: They do it half cocked, half jokey, but out and out deep seated feelings? Not so much. They show it in their actions and their friendships, which we saw here. Sorry for generalising. :o I might be completely wrong on that score, but that's from my experience.


...until all bets are off, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

My goodness me i've not seen this side of you Inte. ;)

That's exactly it (how I see it), all bets are off, and both men (the Wraith and Shep) are once more on equal footing.

kymeric
December 1st, 2007, 08:41 AM
As far as taking a little and giving it back:Isn't that similar to a human regurgitating? Can he get any nutrients out of that? When he did it with Shepard he had feed on quite a few Genii soldiers already.
Spoiler:
And the only other time we have seen it happen is in 'Travelers' and that time I don't think Shepard cared whether or not the Wraith went away hungry




BACKWASH!!! Rofl

arjumand
December 1st, 2007, 08:46 AM
So, I started out in the first 20 mins or so really disliking this episode, but I'm one of those freaks who didn't like McKay and Mrs Miller, so I suppose this is par for the course. I just hate the McKay-bashing eps, where everything is his fault, he just makes things worse etc etc, and the PTB always use Jeannie as an excuse, so I was getting pretty bored. Also, no Teyla (huh?), and no reason for Ronon to be there (as has been pointed out, there was no culture shock or anything, just a pathetic "funny" conversation with Walter, and may I point out that Gary Saxon is not even a quarter as funny as he thinks he is), and I was chalking this up to a dud. Of COURSE Jeannie wasn't going to die.

Then came the utterly awesome, completely out of left field, psychopath-John moment, and I was left in awe. So it's called Miller's Crossing for a GOOD reason ("Don't do this! Look into your heart!" "What heart?") and not for a bad, punny, "It's cos her surname is Miller, geddit?" My heart almost stopped when he was getting out the photos of Jeannie's family; my God, Joe Flanigan can play dead-eyed killer so very well.

There is NOTHING Sheppard wouldn't do for his friends, nothing.

So, this ep, ho-hum beginning and middle, but it certainly ended with a bang. Oh, and I never want to see Jeannie again. Her constant put-downs have made me thankful that I don't have any sisters.

avidffan
December 1st, 2007, 08:48 AM
this ep. feels a little like unatural selection

in that jack had to make a bad choice to save the universe by leaving fifth behind but it was the only choice to make

also sheppard and wallace had only one choice
offer up the facts of the situation and let the man do the righ thing reguardless of the overall morality and darkness of this ep. wallace did the right thing

save the life he took by injecting her with nanites

bluealien
December 1st, 2007, 09:10 AM
I don't think the 'good guys' stoop to any level, blue. Usually they take the high ground and eps are left where justice has been done and the good guys win out over the bad. Not this time. The ep wasn't as black and white as some of the eps we're used to seeing. Yes, he was only trying to save his daughter, but look at what he did? He kidnapped and hunted down two people to save one life. Irrespective of his desperation, he realised (full well) his actions were going to cost him dearly, and it did. It was his choice to kidnap two people, his decision to injure another, then hold them against their will and inject a substance into one of his 'victims' that could potentially kill them, just to get what he wanted. While I empathise with him having to watch someone dying of Cancer (been there too many times to count), but the fact is, desperate or not, he was willing to kill someone to save someone he loved.

I'm not disputing what Wallace did was wrong Peg.. but the difference is he admitted it.. and was willing to be accountable for his actions.. so IMO so should Shep. Why can Shep go to extreme measures to save his family but yet not Wallace. Shep spoke to him with contempt and his main focus was getting him to kill himself so it would solve his problems..but he was placing a guilt trip on an unstable grieving father, and pretty much telling him that the best thing to make things right would be to kill himself.. make things right for who! Sheppard or Wallace. At that stage Wallace had killed no one... but yet Sheppard was still willing to offer him up for slaughter... to be fed on by a Wraith and he of all people knew how horrible that was.
Wallace wasn't a bad person, he admitted never wanting to harm anyone but I don't think Sheppard even cared.. his sole purpose was to use him to feed the Wraith in order to save Rodney...



We don't know that Sheppard won't be subjected to disciplinary actions, nor that he'll come up smelling of roses. I certainly don't want things to 'go back to norma'. I want to see guilt and ramifications of actions, and how it's brought up later on. I certainly don't want it swept under the rug. We know from his past actions that he always holds himself accountable for tactical decisions made. I can't see how this time will be any different.

Things have already gone back to normal and I'm sure this will never be touched on again.



No, Wallace made the choice. Shep simply 'guilted' him into cleaning up the mess that Wallace created in the first place. We don't know if Shep forced him or he did it willingly. It's suggested and I'm sure Shep said 'volunteer' a food source for the Wraith.

By guilting him into his "choice" Sheppard played as much a part in his decision as Wallace himself. If you put a loaded gun next to an emotioanlly unstable person and coax them to use it, do you really think that that absovles you of any responsibilitly if they go ahead and use it.




Well, as Shep said, they needed volunteers. Who was likely to volunteer? It's a temporary reliance, both sides are using each other. The Wraith agreed to helping him, because it was in his best interest. Rodney just needed to find what pushed the Wraith's buttons, and incentive, and he found it.

When Todd asked Sheppard for his help in the Seer I don't think he envisaged that he would be chained up and starved just as he was while in the custody of Koyla. To me the Wraith had no reason to believe anything Rodney said to him.. why would he after the way he was treated by the man whose life he had saved.


The thing is the Wraith can't be trusted. Yes Shep and the Wraith shared an alliance, but it was a means to an end Nothing more, nothing less. If either side renagues on the commitment, then both of them would have no problem pulling the trigger on each other (so to speak). They respect each other, but that's about as far as the trust goes (imo).

I don't see any respect on Sheps side for the Wraith. He is just a means to an end but I did see a respect by the Wraith for John and I believe he genuially thought he could trust Sheppard when he asked for his help, but I guess he was wrong.




Why would he want to after what Wallace did? Kidnap him and his sister, threaten them... would you want to help someone who's done that to a member of your family? I wondered if Jeannie was actually suffering from Stockholme syndrome half way through the ep, agreeing to help. Do we know what happened to their dad? Maybe she built up empathy for him? Rodney is not one to be manipulated that easily. He was still pissed off at that point.
Because the life of an innocent child was at stake... and Jeannie said that they could help her so whatever he felt about her father and why they had brought them there shouldnt have prevented him from trying to save the child IMO. But Rodney was more interested in saving his own skin.




Why would he though? He has to deal with it, and he will in his own way. he did what was necessary to save a life. I didn't think at the end of the ep, that Shep was feeling very heroic though.

Well I think we are back to square one again here peg.. did Shep have the right to take a life in order to save one.. and I still believe he was just as responsible for the death of Wallace as if he had put a bullet in him ..

EyeStrain
December 1st, 2007, 09:39 AM
Worst episode ever! 2/5

Jumper_One
December 1st, 2007, 09:40 AM
Worst episode ever! 2/5

care to elaborate?

PhantomGasoline
December 1st, 2007, 09:40 AM
Mmhmm... too... "earthy,"

And too stupid.

Integrabyte
December 1st, 2007, 09:42 AM
care to elaborate?

...I guess not :P

ToasterOnFire
December 1st, 2007, 09:45 AM
Hmmm...I wonder how the ep would have been different if Wallace's daughter had not (conveniently) died but instead remained in a vegetative/near vegetative state. Then the argument would have been whether or not to feed her to Todd and what Wallace's decision would have been regarding that.

Far darker IMO, but I doubt TPTB would have gone there considering the controversy over the Schiavo case.

EyeStrain
December 1st, 2007, 09:50 AM
care to elaborate?

Predictable episode and not to mention lousy acting.

iolanda
December 1st, 2007, 09:50 AM
It was a good episode but I do not like the fact that Ronons first trip to Earth was based on something so serious. Ronons first trip to Earth definitely should have been one of those comedic filler episodes & John takes him to I dont know Disney Land.

When Ronon first went to Earth he had a coffin on his shoulder. Sunday. Remember?

Elite Anubis Guard
December 1st, 2007, 09:55 AM
Well, to me this episode was a 50:50. In terms of story, it felt really dodgy and at times I was trying to think what the writers were doing but I also loved some of the stuff it did for the characters. Rodney and Sheppard in particular. Really loved Rodney's family stuff, seeing how far he'd go for Jeanie. Esp loved Dark Sheppard. I really really digged that and can't wait to see it come back to him!

However, don't like Ronan's portrayal. I wish they'd get him out of this "I'm only here to shoot people". I'll say more later but I've gotta go.

Integrabyte
December 1st, 2007, 09:55 AM
My goodness me i've not seen this side of you Inte. ;)

Stick around babe and you'll see many new things :P


*hides the shovel behind the door :P *



I don't think the 'good guys' stoop to any level, blue. Usually they take the high ground and eps are left where justice has been done and the good guys win out over the bad. Not this time. The ep wasn't as black and white as some of the eps we're used to seeing. Yes, he was only trying to save his daughter, but look at what he did? He kidnapped and hunted down two people to save one life. Irrespective of his desperation, he realised (full well) his actions were going to cost him dearly, and it did. It was his choice to kidnap two people, his decision to injure another, then hold them against their will and inject a substance into one of his 'victims' that could potentially kill them, just to get what he wanted. While I empathise with him having to watch someone dying of Cancer (been there too many times to count), but the fact is, desperate or not, he was willing to kill someone to save someone he loved.


Can I disagree with you here? Did Wallace ever give you the impression that he was going to hurt them? He apologised for what he did and he even said he will let them go. When does a kidnapper shake hands and begs for help? Wallace had character and I am sorry but what he did for his daughter is admirable. He did not take matters to another level only until "Mc'Connan" decided to look out for numero uno. They guy felt his whole world was crashing when he risked everything to catch these two and they simply say F***k off by trying to escape. I do agree with you on the whole Jeannie situation. Wallace should not have done that, but desperate times call for desperate measures. On the same note, would you call Weir a tyrant for unleashing Ronon to torture Kavanaugh? Similar scenario. Lives were at stake. Back to our sheep, McKay asked for it because he wasn't willing to cooperate from the beginning. I do think a life is worth his time, even though the circumstances were awkward. Didn't he say he always wanted to die whilst saving a bunch of kids....

Pegasus_SGA
December 1st, 2007, 10:00 AM
I'm not disputing what Wallace did was wrong Peg.. but the difference is he admitted it.. and was willing to be accountable for his actions.. so IMO so should Shep.

No I know you weren't disputing it hon. It just felt that way reading your post, that Wallace wasn't accountable. Wallace admitting it, doesn't absolve him for what he did though. Personally I agree that Shep was morally wrong into doing what he did, but I do understand his actions, and i'm assuming that he must have got some sort of ok for this to have taken place at the SGC (particularly given the implications). I don't think this is the sort of thing he would have been given free reign to do with what he wanted. Should he be held accountable? Personally no, because I don't think he has anything to be accountable for. He didn't put a gun to Wallace's head, he merely 'guilted' him into making amends. Wallace should not have put the team in that position to start with. So it could be debated that Shep didn't push him into anything. So why would he need to apologise or make amends. He did what he had to.




Why can Shep go to extreme measures to save his family but yet not Wallace. Shep spoke to him with contempt and his main focus was getting him to kill himself so it would solve his problems..but he was placing a guilt trip on an unstable grieving father, and pretty much telling him that the best thing to make things right would be to kill himself.. make things right for who! Sheppard or Wallace. At that stage Wallace had killed no one... but yet Sheppard was still willing to offer him up for slaughter... to be fed on by a Wraith and he of all people knew how horrible that was.
Wallace wasn't a bad person, he admitted never wanting to harm anyone but I don't think Sheppard even cared.. his sole purpose was to use him to feed the Wraith in order to save Rodney...


The point is Sheppard wouldn't have been put into situation, but if not for the actions of Wallace. Wallace made the wrong choice in dealing with the situation, Shep ultimately (how I see it) is that he made sure at the end that Wallace made the right decision. It doesn't mean that I agree with what Sheppard did, and two wrongs don't make a right. But, Wallace perpetuated it, and maintained it constantly. Shep just finished it, rightly or wrongly. And I don't think it was a decision to take lightly. He knew ultimately that McKay would eventually find a way of giving up his life for his sister, but Shep couldn't put him through that. With little alternatives, he did what was necessary to bring a resolution. You're right he did know how awful it was to be fed on, and that's why he didn't want Rodney to have to go through that. But Rodney is his family, Wallace wasn't. Rodney was going to kill himself for his family, all because of one man's actions. Wallace (while I agree not a bad man) deliberatly committed a maliscious act. Sheppard didn't, he was undoing a wrong that had been made.


Things have already gone back to normal and I'm sure this will never be touched on again.


The one thing I love with these ethical type of eps is there is no right or wrong answer. It's about perception and morality, and 'If you were in that position what would you do?' I'm not saying you're wrong in what you're thinking, hon, ethical and moral dilemma's will never be black and white. You might be right and we won't see any further ramifications to what happened. I hope not.

We know that Sheppard internalises everything, Sumner, Ford, Weir, and questions his own decisions, and feels guilt and remorse for some of his actions. He does accept responsibility and he has to live with it. Just because we don't see it immediately after all is said and done, doesn't necessarily mean it's forgotten about. Sometimes if you over analyse what you've done, it can drive you nuts and then you start second guessing yourself. There comes a time when you just have to switch off for a bit. It doesn't mean that those feelings of what he did are forgotten about. It just means that for the moment he wanted to be with his friend who needed him.



By guilting him into his "choice" Sheppard played as much a part in his decision as Wallace himself. If you put a loaded gun next to an emotioanlly unstable person and coax them to use it, do you really think that that absovles you of any responsibilitly if they go ahead and use it.


*tries not to sound fraudian* There is still that choice there though. You choose what you do, not someone else. Stable or not, he was not 'that' far gone. Guilt ridden to the point of suicide? I'm not sure. Depressed yes, but even depressed people have a choice. I speak from personal experience (and i'm going through it now) when I say that, just because you've lost someone close to you, and then have another close family member dying, it does not mean that you go hell for leather and do what Wallace did. It doesn't matter to me whether he regrets it or not. He had a choice, and paid the ultimate price for it. Yes desperate people do desperate things when they're grieving, but he shouldn't have put others in the position that he had ultimately found himself embroiled in. He was only too aware of his actions when he injected Jeannie, and that's the difference. If he didn't know what he was doing and too emotionally unstable to make a choice, then i'd probably be saying the same things you are. But he wasn't. What was the alternative? Let Jeannie die? Let Rodney die to? Then the Wraith? Where does it end? All because of the actions of one man. Sheppard stopped the chain events by the only way he knew how, by making Wallace accountable for his own actions.


When Todd asked Sheppard for his help in the Seer I don't think he envisaged that he would be chained up and starved just as he was while in the custody of Koyla. To me the Wraith had no reason to believe anything Rodney said to him.. why would he after the way he was treated by the man whose life he had saved.

No, I agree with you here about the Wraith being chained up and kept (technically as he was with Kolya). The Wraith had no obligations to help them, but he did? Why was that? Personnally I saw it as there must have been something in it for him, either that, or Rodney's a better diplomat than he thinks. :lol:



I don't see any respect on Sheps side for the Wraith. He is just a means to an end but I did see a respect by the Wraith for John and I believe he genuially thought he could trust Sheppard when he asked for his help, but I guess he was wrong.


I do, it's subtle, but it's there. If Shep didn't trust the wraith, then why release him from his bindings? The Wraith asked Shep for his help, told him to come unarmed in the hopes of an alliance. So why didn't the Wraith meet Shep on his own? Two men on equal footing. How I saw it was the Wraith wasn't prepared to take any risks, and neither was Sheppard. All bets were off at that point.



Because the life of an innocent child was at stake... and Jeannie said that they could help her so whatever he felt about her father and why they had brought them there shouldnt have prevented him from trying to save the child IMO. But Rodney was more interested in saving his own skin.


I understand exactly where you're coming from, hon. It wasn't the child's fault for the actions of her father and why should she suffer for his mistakes. But did Jeannie or Rodney owe them anything? She was dying of cancer. They're not doctors. Rodney needed Keller's help in Adrift, so this area is not something he's comfortable with. That and the fact that I think his first instincts were to get Jeannie to help. As selfish as it is, family comes first.



Well I think we are back to square one again here peg.. did Shep have the right to take a life in order to save one.. and I still believe he was just as responsible for the death of Wallace as if he had put a bullet in him ..

Right back to where we started, Blue. :D I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this anytime in the near future, hon. :lol: It's ethics. And like I said before, it's interpreting things according to our own moral beliefs and ethics. Personally I don't have any ethics or morality, and would have fed him to the Wraith to. ;) :lol: I do disagree with Shep's tactics (although I admired his ingenuity and what he did for his family). If I was in his shoes, I probably would have done the same to be honest. What would you have done?

Teslan
December 1st, 2007, 10:05 AM
Do you think bad people think theyre evil? No one thinks they are evil. Theyre just trapped with no way out, emotionally unstable, and the only choices are really effed up. You do what you gotta do.


Its not nice to think about but all the military personell have killed alot of ppl. Even before the show. Heck, Oneill was special ops, hes prolly killed hundreds of people personally.

I don't care that they have killed a lot of people in battle situations. Or followed orders to kill people, even when they don't know the circumstances. That is a different issue, becuase it is part of their job. But guilting this obviously depressed guy into giving his own life, to save Jeannie's is not the same thing.

As far as showing how far Shep is willing to go to save his family, I can see and understand that. It was character development, which I like to see even if i don't agree with what it says about the character. I think we know from earlier episodes just how ruthless Shepard can be, particularly when one of his family members is in trouble. This takes it one step further, but still keeps with what was previously hinted at concerning his character.

Fine, let them face moral crises, let them make mistakes, let them be unapologetic, but DON'T (as someone pointed out before) hit the reset button, and allow things to go on like nothing happened. Shep does not have to delve into his feelings. He is like Jack in that regard, but Jack paid for his mistakes all the time. Remember 'Learning Curve'? Jack took a controversial stand (I agreed with him), refused to back down, didn't verbally give a real reason why, and got punished for it. That is kind of what I wanted to see here. Hopefully, TPTB might mention the events of this episode later on.


Originally posted by kymeric
BACKWASH!!! Rofl

That's what I was thinking, lol. Didn't both Shep and Larrin describe it as a rather unpleasant sensation?

1138
December 1st, 2007, 10:09 AM
At the very end I almost thought Sheppard was going to say they he wasn't able to talk Wallace into it, and that he wound up stunning him with a Zat gun and tossing him into the room. Now *that* would have been a truly badass and controversial reveal!!! Hey, who knows, maybe we'll find out later that that is how it went down!

I don't want the show to turn into Battlestar Galactica. The way Sheppard did it in this episode was fine; he basically told Wallace to set things right.

retiredat44
December 1st, 2007, 10:14 AM
??
the wraith was totally bummed out, all sad :( ... and thinking about how sad his life is since he lost his flellow wraith buddies int he other galaxy,, he wa sin a deep depression. McKay chatted him up :mckayanime03: about helping save McKay's sister out of the goodness of the Wraith's heart.. :atlantistrio:

The Wraith was so touched by McKay's pleas for help,, he decided to do a good deed... he worked until he collapsed because he had no sucked the life out of some poor SOB in 2 weeks.
:mckayanime08:


.. that scumag who kidnapped McKay and his Einstein sister... decided he would rather a be snack for a Wraith than live in prison forever...

The wraith repairs the code before anyone else can chat him up :wraith: .. again...

WTF ??

Pegasus_SGA
December 1st, 2007, 10:21 AM
Hmmm...I wonder how the ep would have been different if Wallace's daughter had not (conveniently) died but instead remained in a vegetative/near vegetative state. Then the argument would have been whether or not to feed her to Todd and what Wallace's decision would have been regarding that.

Far darker IMO, but I doubt TPTB would have gone there considering the controversy over the Schiavo case.

Good point. I don't think they would have gone that far, but an interesting point of view. I don't know about the Schiavo case, would you be able to send me a link? That wasn't the ep with one of the Hoffans was it? :S


Predictable episode and not to mention lousy acting.

How was it predictable?


Stick around babe and you'll see many new things :P


*hides the shovel behind the door :P *



:eek: You do know that i'm a whumper don't you hon? If that's all you've got, i'll give you time to get reinforcements. ;) :P :D


Can I disagree with you here?

Nope you can't! Next question. :D





Did Wallace ever give you the impression that he was going to hurt them? He apologised for what he did and he even said he will let them go. When does a kidnapper shake hands and begs for help? Wallace had character and I am sorry but what he did for his daughter is admirable. He did not take matters to another level only until "Mc'Connan" decided to look out for numero uno. They guy felt his whole world was crashing when he risked everything to catch these two and they simply say F***k off by trying to escape. I do agree with you on the whole Jeannie situation. Wallace should not have done that, but desperate times call for desperate measures. On the same note, would you call Weir a tyrant for unleashing Ronon to torture Kavanaugh? Similar scenario. Lives were at stake. Back to our sheep, McKay asked for it because he wasn't willing to cooperate from the beginning. I do think a life is worth his time, even though the circumstances were awkward. Didn't he say he always wanted to die whilst saving a bunch of kids....

Yep he did make me think that he could hurt them. By having armed men storm into the house, by having Rodney stunned, by injecting Jeannie with the nanites. He may not have done all those things physically, but his men did following his orders. I've had an AK47 shoved in my face, then had my hand shaken. :lol: So, did I think Wallace was friendly? Hmmmm not so much. :P People convince me of their intentions by their actions, his intentions and actions weren't exactly honourable, no matter what his motives. If I was in Rodney's place, I probably would have said F Off to. :lol: Why would I want to help someone who's tried to kil a member of my family? Irrespective of whether I empathised with him or not. That's not the way you ask for help, no matter how desperate you are. Not in my book anyway.

I disagreed with Weir's methods for interrogating Kav in that ep, but I understood her reason's for doing that. The two aren't mutually exclusive though, and these had different variables than that.

:lol: Back to our sheep.... :P He did that, but when it came to stepping up to the plate about saving the kids, I guess he wasn't quite ready for the big league! :D How I saw it was McKay prioritising. At that point in time, the kid wasn't his priority, Jeannie was. In life and death situations you have to prioritorise, and to McKay, saving his sister's life was his top priority.

bluealien
December 1st, 2007, 10:25 AM
Right back to where we started, Blue. :D I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this anytime in the near future, hon. :lol: It's ethics. And like I said before, it's interpreting things according to our own moral beliefs and ethics. Personally I don't have any ethics or morality, and would have fed him to the Wraith to. ;) :lol: I do disagree with Shep's tactics (although I admired his ingenuity and what he did for his family). If I was in his shoes, I probably would have done the same to be honest. What would you have done?


Being a parent I would go to desparate measures to save any one of my children and probably would have done exactly the same as Wallace if I was in his position. I would act on the smallest amount of hope if I thought it would save my child.

As to Sheppard... He didnt experience the desparation and emotion that drove Wallace to do what the did .. and if Rodney hadnt of tried to escape I don't think we would have found ourselves in this position at all.. but that was needed to futher the plot I guess.

But Sheppard really didnt care about Wallace or what drove him to do what he did. His only intent was using his guilt against him to further his own agenda, but for me it was the ruthless and cold hearted way that Sheppard went about convincing Wallace to "do the right thing" .. that kinda shocked me. So no there is no way I could talk someone into killing themselves to save a friend and what kind of friend would be ok with me doing something like that!!

Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel
December 1st, 2007, 10:33 AM
I'm not disputing what Wallace did was wrong Peg.. but the difference is he admitted it.. and was willing to be accountable for his actions.. so IMO so should Shep. Why can Shep go to extreme measures to save his family but yet not Wallace.
I agree with this. I think John should have some consequences for his actions, even if they're just emotional issues on his part. What he did was, at very least, morally questionable, and I don't think he would just forget about it that easily or that he -- or anyone else -- should take what he did lightly. However...


Shep spoke to him with contempt and his main focus was getting him to kill himself so it would solve his problems..but he was placing a guilt trip on an unstable grieving father, and pretty much telling him that the best thing to make things right would be to kill himself.. make things right for who! Sheppard or Wallace. At that stage Wallace had killed no one... but yet Sheppard was still willing to offer him up for slaughter... to be fed on by a Wraith and he of all people knew how horrible that was.
Wallace wasn't a bad person, he admitted never wanting to harm anyone but I don't think Sheppard even cared.. his sole purpose was to use him to feed the Wraith in order to save Rodney...

By guilting him into his "choice" Sheppard played as much a part in his decision as Wallace himself. If you put a loaded gun next to an emotioanlly unstable person and coax them to use it, do you really think that that absovles you of any responsibilitly if they go ahead and use it.
I don't agree. I seriously don't think Sheppard took it lightly. He knew exactly what he was doing. You say he spoke to Wallace with contempt and that his main focus was getting Wallace to kill himself so it would solve his (Sheppard's) problems? That's quite harsh, I think. I'm not saying what he did was right, in fact, I believe Sheppard knew what he was doing might be morally wrong and that he decided it was a necessary sacrifice. I have to say, at first I was very disturbed with what he did. It was very easy for me to judge him for convincing a man to take his life. Then I thought about what I'd do in his situation. If a good friend of mine was considering giving his/her life for a sibling, and there was a chance that the person who caused this situation in the first place might be willing to make it right, would I help him make the decision to give his life to save the person who was dying because of him? I really don't know. I just might have. Sheppard, IMO, was not convincing Wallace to commit suicide, he was convincing him to give his life to save the person who was dying because of him (Wallace). Was this a moral and right decision? Did he have the right to try to persuade Wallace to do it? Probably not. But I think Sheppard thought it was the right thing, all things considered. Yes, he was doing it mostly to save Rodney from giving his life, but the reason he was willing to choose Wallace over Rodney was -- even if mostly to save his friend -- partly to give Wallace a chance to redeem himself. Look at it from Wallace's point of view. His Wife is dead, his daughter is dead, and now this innocent women with a husband and daughter was dying because of his selfishness. You keep saying that Sheppard took advantage of Wallace's guilt, I think he thought he was giving him a chance to make it right -- to redeem himself by helping to save the person he himself had caused to need saving in the first place. Yes, Sheppard's motivation was to save Rodney and his sister, but that doesn't mean he did gave no consideration about Wallace either. Does that justify what he did? Not really. But as a military leader and a friend, he made the choice he thought was right, IMO.


Because the life of an innocent child was at stake... and Jeannie said that they could help her so whatever he felt about her father and why they had brought them there shouldnt have prevented him from trying to save the child IMO. But Rodney was more interested in saving his own skin.
I'm with you here. I wanted to smack Rodney at times... but I do understand where he stood and that he might have also been thinking about the safety of his sister, not just himself.


Well I think we are back to square one again here peg.. did Shep have the right to take a life in order to save one.. and I still believe he was just as responsible for the death of Wallace as if he had put a bullet in him ..
Explaining why he might feel justified doing it is one thing, but I don't think I can give you an answer on whether or not he had the moral right. I don't think anyone is saying that what he did was the right thing, just that Sheppard thought it was the right decision and that it shows how far he is willing to go for his friends. Like I said, I think he should have emotional consequences. Although, like you, I doubt TPTB will bring it up again. Guess we'll have to leave that up up to fan fics... *hint* *hint* Anyone? :D

Edit: Hmm... it looks like Pegasus_SGA pretty much said everything I said before I got to post... :o

Oh, even though this post is probably too long already, I guess I should say how much I liked this episode.... loved it! The episode wasn't quite as dark as the title... but for SG it was very dark. *thumbsup* Loved the humor, too. :D Wasn't perfect, but I'll give it a

8.5/10 :)

jelgate
December 1st, 2007, 10:35 AM
Good point. I don't think they would have gone that far, but an interesting point of view. I don't know about the Schiavo case, would you be able to send me a link? That wasn't the ep with one of the Hoffans was it? :S
The Schivao case was about a woman in a vegative state. Her husband wanted to to pull the plug because there was no hope for recovery. While Terry Schivao parents wanted to kill her off. It eventual ended with the US Supreme Court allowed the doctors to pull the plug




How was it predictable?
When you find out let me know



:eek: You do know that i'm a whumper don't you hon? If that's all you've got, i'll give you time to get reinforcements. ;) :P :D
I'm not afraid of whumpers. There bark is worse than there bite. Mckay could beat up a whumper, thats how weak they are.


Yep he did make me think that he could hurt them. By having armed men storm into the house, by having Rodney stunned, by injecting Jeannie with the nanites. He may not have done all those things physically, but his men did following his orders. I've had an AK47 shoved in my face, then had my hand shaken. :lol: So, did I think Wallace was friendly? Hmmmm not so much. :P People convince me of their intentions by their actions, his intentions and actions weren't exactly honourable, no matter what his motives. If I was in Rodney's place, I probably would have said F Off to. :lol: Why would I want to help someone who's tried to kil a member of my family? Irrespective of whether I empathised with him or not. That's not the way you ask for help, no matter how desperate you are. Not in my book anyway.
Thats exactly what McKay did until Wallace infected Jeanie with nanities

[/QUOTE]I disagreed with Weir's methods for interrogating Kav in that ep, but I understood her reason's for doing that. The two aren't mutually exclusive though, and these had different variables than that.[/QUOTE]
I think they are alike. Both invovled violating ethics to help save the people they care about

Klenotka
December 1st, 2007, 10:40 AM
Well, it is nice to see that some episode can do this. Some people love it and other hate. I think this one was great for Rodney and John. It was so fantastic for their friendship and it was great to see it. Rodney was willing to die for Jeannie and Sheppard crossed his moral limits for Rodney and his family. Their chat was one of the best thing in SG ever. IMO, of course.

But what is my problem, not with this episode, but SGA generally. I don´t like Teyla. I think she is boring and unintersting, and her presence pointless. At least in S2 and 3. But it´s sad bc I kind of liked her in S1, only their bad writing made me to dislike her. They wrote bad also McKay or Sheppard and damaged their characters but it was at compensated by their screentime.
And what is the consequence of this? Teyla wasn´t in this episode and I didn´t notice it. She just wasn´t there and it didn´t cross my mind "I miss someone". If she wouldn´t be there at all, I don´t think I would bother.
And I don´t mean anything bad by this, it´s just how I feel it and I am sorry for actress. I know that it was maybe bc of the pregnancy of the actress but it seems that she was pregnant for last two years.:rolleyes:

Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel
December 1st, 2007, 10:41 AM
Being a parent I would go to desparate measures to save any one of my children and probably would have done exactly the same as Wallace if I was in his position. I would act on the smallest amount of hope if I thought it would save my child.

As to Sheppard... He didnt experience the desparation and emotion that drove Wallace to do what the did .. and if Rodney hadnt of tried to escape I don't think we would have found ourselves in this position at all.. but that was needed to futher the plot I guess.

But Sheppard really didnt care about Wallace or what drove him to do what he did. His only intent was using his guilt against him to further his own agenda, but for me it was the ruthless and cold hearted way that Sheppard went about convincing Wallace to "do the right thing" .. that kinda shocked me. So no there is no way I could talk someone into killing themselves to save a friend and what kind of friend would be ok with me doing something like that!!
I guess I do pretty much agree with you, I'd just cut Sheppard a little more slack. I think his emotions had a lot to do with it. He wasn't as emotionally desparate as Wallace, but the emotional aspect of losing one of his best friends was definitely a huge factor in his decision. What he did was wrong, but it wasn't ruthless and cold hearted, IMO. I'm sure the decision wasn't that easy and I'm also sure that --whether or not we see it on screen -- he will feel quite guilty for doing it. Although, ultimately he would decide there was no other choice.

AGateFan
December 1st, 2007, 10:41 AM
At the end of the day John is military and like O'Neill has probably done some damn distasteful things in his career, I don't really understand why people expect military characters on the show to constantly smell like roses to use mayborns expression. John did what was needed to be done to stop Mckay sacrificing himself, because Mckay is to valuable to the SGC and the Expedition to be sacrificed when there is another option.

It may be hard to stomach but it was for the greater good, and it won't be the first nor the last time a call like this will have to be made.
O'Neill may have done distasteful things....followed orders that were maybe not the best... but when asked if sacraficing one human for all the knowledge and power was worth it, he said "no, thats why they call us the 'good guys'" (or something to that effect).

They went to great pains in this ep to paint the "bad guy" as not a bad guy just someone who was distraught...then Sheppard takes that distraught fellow and feeds him to a wraith. If the guy had jumped up an volunteered without Shep pushing him I could be a little more forgiving, but even then you dont do it. The man was not tried and convicted of anything yet.... if you want to feed a criminal to the wraith then at least make it one on death row...but you cant do that, because that would be called "inhumane" and people would wine. If you would wine and screem if they did it to a confined prisoner, why dont you wine and screem when they do it to a mentally ill, yet to be convicted man. I have no respect for sheppard at least McKay was willing to do it himself but even then I question his intelligence. Ultimatly it was just crapy writing, in an effort to make the show "dark" they just make the characters unlikeable...much like BSG I could care less if Shep gets a bullet in the head at this point... I have no sympathy for him if he gets eaten by a wraith. All you do comes back to you by three, if the writers want to make this right they better make him suffer..and I dont mean freaking weak angst over Weir.

Killdeer
December 1st, 2007, 10:41 AM
As to Sheppard... He didnt experience the desparation and emotion that drove Wallace to do what the did..

On that I disagree. I think Sheppard wouldn't have crossed that line, except that he couldn't deal with losing Rodney. He said it himself - "I can't". He couldn't deal with that.

I don't think what Sheppard did was right....not by a long shot. But I do think it was in character. I've always thought Sheppard was capable of going to these extremes. People tend to discount him as just a screwup helo pilot that happened to fall in the command position. I think he's got a lot darker of a background than that. And he told Teyla that he would do anything for his family. Now we see just how far "anything" is for Shep.

This whole episode was based around the theme of - how far will you go for your family? What lines will you cross? Wallace is not a bad guy, and I don't think he was intended to be. (I love Steven Culp BTW, ever since he played Webb in JAG). He's just a desperate father.

Wallace would give up his freedom for his daughter.
Rodney would give up his life for his sister.
Sheppard would sell his soul for his "family".

Wallace crossed lines. So did Sheppard. There were very deliberate parallels drawn I think. No one was intended to be the good guy. Especially not Sheppard, who in the end was the one who ended up taking it all the way. But I don't dislike him for that. I guess in a way it only makes him more real for me. Shep's always had this darkness in him. It only takes the right circumstances to bring it out - a threat to those he cares about.

It was a very dark thing to do. This is not a feel-good episode. But....it was very impacting. I think it was the right call for the writers.

Pegasus_SGA
December 1st, 2007, 10:42 AM
Being a parent I would go to desparate measures to save any one of my children and probably would have done exactly the same as Wallace if I was in his position. I would act on the smallest amount of hope if I thought it would save my child.

I agree if it was to save one of my kids (if I had any) I've had foster kids and personally speaking as their 'mom', they were treated as one of my own, and I would have done anything to save them. But this wasn't an external force or someone threatening his child. This was a terrible disease that effects families every day, what gave him the right to risk the life of someone else's daughter and son just to save his own? he in effect is condemning someone elses mother/father to go through what he's going through. Is it understandable, absolutley, but morally, no. He should never have put them in that position in the first place.


As to Sheppard... He didnt experience the desparation and emotion that drove Wallace to do what the did .. and if Rodney hadnt of tried to escape I don't think we would have found ourselves in this position at all.. but that was needed to futher the plot I guess.

No, you're right, he didn't suffer to the same degree as Wallace did in having someone close to him dying. But that would have been what he would have faced with Rodney, but for his own actions.

:lol: That's true, it's all Rodney's fault. ;) But he was protecting his family, just as Wallace was protecting his daughter. A lethal combination. :o



But Sheppard really didnt care about Wallace or what drove him to do what he did. His only intent was using his guilt against him to further his own agenda, but for me it was the ruthless and cold hearted way that Sheppard went about convincing Wallace to "do the right thing" .. that kinda shocked me. So no there is no way I could talk someone into killing themselves to save a friend and what kind of friend would be ok with me doing something like that!!

How I saw it was, he couldn't afford to be empathic with Wallace or his situation, as it would have clouded his judgement in what needed to be done. You're right he was ruthless and calculating. I agree it was a bit shocking to see him use that tact to get what was necessary, but it's not the first time we've seen that 'coldness' to him. When he goes into Soldier mode, he seems to deflect any of his emotions, because he knew they would have influenced him in what he had to do, and he did it to save his friend. I don't know if I could have done it either. If I had to give an answer to this, and a member of my family was about to die because of someone elses actions.... I think I might have it in me to manipulate their emotions and get them to do what was necessary Whether I would have succeeded is anyone's guess. :lol:

jelgate
December 1st, 2007, 10:44 AM
O'Neill may have done distasteful things....followed orders that were maybe not the best... but when asked if sacraficing one human for all the knowledge and power was worth it, he said "no, thats why they call us the 'good guys'" (or something to that effect).
What about Scorched Earth when O'Neill was going to kill one race to save another. Its not always black and white

ToasterOnFire
December 1st, 2007, 11:06 AM
I'm still squicked out over Rodney breaking his sister's legs... :eek:


The Schivao case was about a woman in a vegative state. Her husband wanted to to pull the plug because there was no hope for recovery. While Terry Schivao parents wanted to kill her off. It eventual ended with the US Supreme Court allowed the doctors to pull the plug
That about sums it up, though I think you meant to put a "didn't want to kill her off" in regards to her parents. Schiavo was conscious and the debate was twofold - one over whether or not she responded to stimuli and might recover (her parents said yes, doctors said no), two over who had the legal right over her fate (the law was on her husband's side). It turned into a huge media and legal mess in regards to what Terry would have wanted and whether removing her feeding tube and allowing her to die was murder.


On that I disagree. I think Sheppard wouldn't have crossed that line, except that he couldn't deal with losing Rodney. He said it himself - "I can't". He couldn't deal with that.
Except to be fair he wouldn't have lost Rodney. Rodney would only have died if he had been allowed to sacrifice himself to Todd, and Shep could have prevented that from happening. Jeanie would have been the one to die. So Shep wasn't even sacrificing someone directly for a member of his team, but for a relative of a team member. It may not be a big distinction to Shep (the family of my family is my family, etc), but it does deserves mention.

Shan Bruce Lee
December 1st, 2007, 11:11 AM
Except to be fair he wouldn't have lost Rodney. Rodney would only have died if he had been allowed to sacrifice himself to Todd, and Shep could have prevented that from happening. Jeanie would have been the one to die. So Shep wasn't even sacrificing someone directly for a member of his team, but for a relative of a team member. It may not be a big distinction to Shep (the family of my family is my family, etc), but it does deserves mention.

That's how I've been looking at it. I don't even consider that Rodney would have died. To me the whole thing comes down to either Wallace or Jeanie was going to die... Wallace had kidnapped two people and indirectly killed his own daughter. Jeanie made fun of Meredith a few times...

jelgate
December 1st, 2007, 11:16 AM
I'm still squicked out over Rodney breaking his sister's legs... :eek:


That about sums it up, though I think you meant to put a "didn't want to kill her off" in regards to her parents. Schiavo was conscious and the debate was twofold - one over whether or not she responded to stimuli and might recover (her parents said yes, doctors said no), two over who had the legal right over her fate (the law was on her husband's side). It turned into a huge media and legal mess in regards to what Terry would have wanted and whether removing her feeding tube and allowing her to die was murder.

That was a typing error on my fault. Her parents wanted her to not be taken off life support. If I remeber correctly the government was divided over the course of action because didn't Congress give her family money to keep her living

bluealien
December 1st, 2007, 11:17 AM
Well, it is nice to see that some episode can do this. Some people love it and other hate. I think this one was great for Rodney and John. It was so fantastic for their friendship and it was great to see it. Rodney was willing to die for Jeannie and Sheppard crossed his moral limits for Rodney and his family. Their chat was one of the best thing in SG ever. IMO, of course.

But what is my problem, not with this episode, but SGA generally. I don´t like Teyla. I think she is boring and unintersting, and her presence pointless. At least in S2 and 3. But it´s sad bc I kind of liked her in S1, only their bad writing made me to dislike her. They wrote bad also McKay or Sheppard and damaged their characters but it was at compensated by their screentime.
And what is the consequence of this? Teyla wasn´t in this episode and I didn´t notice it. She just wasn´t there and it didn´t cross my mind "I miss someone". If she wouldn´t be there at all, I don´t think I would bother.
And I don´t mean anything bad by this, it´s just how I feel it and I am sorry for actress. I know that it was maybe bc of the pregnancy of the actress but it seems that she was pregnant for last two years.:rolleyes:

So you don't like Teyla.. what has that got to do with anything... I don't like McKay and find him irritating and annoying most of the time but I have to put up with him, and I don't miss Weir at all... it doesn't really have anything to do with the episode.

Sheps and Rodney scene was powerful but it doesn't justify what Shep did. Why was he allowing the Wraith to starve to death if he was so valuable to saving the galaxy from the Replicators. Why did Rodney refuse to let the Wraith help him when millions of lives were at stake but is prepared to grovel when his sister's life is at stake.. If Sheppard was going to go down the slippery slope of making morally abiguous decisions, then wouldnt the fate of the universe have prompted him to do this and not just the fate of one man. They were leaving the Wraith to starve to death rather than trying to get him to help save millions of lives, but it takes the possible death of one man for Sheppard to take the decision to feed him. I could have accepted John's decision to give someone to the Wraith (or coax someone to sacrifice themselves) if the fate of hundreds or thousands were at stake.. but there was only one, and why was no one worried about the Wraith dying before if his help was so valuable in decoding/reprogramming the replicators.

Detox
December 1st, 2007, 11:28 AM
My god this was a crappy, cring-worthy, unbelievably stupid episode.

Any redeeming qualities? Um, Ronan’s “dumb” comment, probably because it did such a good job foreshadowing the script. Too bad we can’t get Ronan to point his gun at it and disintergrate it into non-existence.

Stupid and cringe-worthy.
SGC has become voyager S1. Everyone in the universe knows about the program. But I guess that makes sense if our resident genius is FREAKING EMAILING alien programs across unsecured networks. I think I heard a thud, I think it was my company’s security officer having a stroke.

Sappy bad guy, it was a blessing that he was fed to the wraith but very pathetically anti-moral of Sheppard. How exactly am I supposed to have respect for him? Or McKay for “thanking” him?

What idiot would bring the wraith to the SGC… or volunteer to get eaten by one… oh right, Mckay.

Stupid and cringe-worthy….and did I mention boring? I was looking at the clock at 10:30 wondering if it would ever end.

Walter = Cringe-worthy
NID guy = Cringe-worthy
Ronan = still cool but as bored as I was
Sheppard = scumbag
Badguy = Scumbag and sappy and boring
Mckay = idiot
Jennie = sadly strapped to this horrible role by her brother
Jennies husband = annoying.
Waith = just shaking my head.


Next week previews Weir and the vision I have a little bit of hope that this is just a one off bad ep and that we will not spiral into a S9-S10 tragedy…..but as this ep kicked me in the gut with its patheticness, it’s a slim hope.

Looks like you're the only guy who thinks this way.

<snip>

AGateFan
December 1st, 2007, 11:32 AM
What about Scorched Earth when O'Neill was going to kill one race to save another. Its not always black and white
He was going to destroy and automated device that was terraforming an entire planet in hopes that they would be able to successfully seed the planet and that life may one day appear............. to save a race of people that already lived on the planet and required the ecosystem that was there.

The question is the morality of the species that thought it was OK to destroy an entire ecosystem in the hopes that they could be reborn. What about all the plants and animals living in the original atmosphere. What do they have to offer, maybe the cure to a disease that will eventually destroy the race who destoryed them....that would be irony.

But at least that was a shade of grey. This was not a shade of grey. Sheppards act was evil, like offering a drug to someone. Yeah you know it will kill them but what the hell "they know they want it". I guess its OK to start harvesting other people for orgins to save "the right" people. In fact, I guess you can go ahead and make a deal with the wraith, give them all your prisoners let the "good" people live....oh wait thats already been done by the "bad guys" in one of the eps.

Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel
December 1st, 2007, 11:34 AM
Sheps and Rodney scene was powerful but it doesn't justify what Shep did. Why was he allowing the Wraith to starve to death if he was so valuable to saving the galaxy from the Replicators.
How was he supposed to feed it? Offer himself? (I'm not being sarcastic, I'd really like to know your opinion :o)


Why did Rodney refuse to let the Wraith help him when millions of lives were at stake but is prepared to grovel when his sister's life is at stake..
That's probably just arrogance on his part. And selfishness, I suppose.


If Sheppard was going to go down the slippery slope of making morally abiguous decisions, then wouldnt the fate of the universe have prompted him to do this and not just the fate of one man. They were leaving the Wraith to starve to death rather than trying to get him to help save millions of lives, but it takes the possible death of one man for Sheppard to take the decision to feed him. I could have accepted John's decision to give someone to the Wraith (or coax someone to sacrifice themselves) if the fate of hundreds or thousands were at stake.. but there was only one, and why was no one worried about the Wraith dying before if his help was so valuable in decoding/reprogramming the replicators.
I posted a response to this in the other thread: How far is too far? Sheppards actions in MC (http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost.php?p=7385279&postcount=34)

Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel
December 1st, 2007, 11:38 AM
[snipped for space] Sheppards act was evil, like offering a drug to someone. Yeah you know it will kill them but what the hell "they know they want it".
Maybe. Or Shep thought of it more as giving Wallace a chance to redeem himself by saving the person who was dying because of him (Wallace) in the first place.

Shan Bruce Lee
December 1st, 2007, 11:39 AM
I think the fact that Wallace was written and played so well as a "relatable villain" is clouding people's perspective on this issue. I mean even I feel a little sorry for him even though I think it was 100% the right thing for Sheppard to do. I don't wanna sound like a broken record here but the guy that was responsible for all of this is the one who paid the price. At least there's some redemption in the fact that his sacrafice helped make things right.

Shan Bruce Lee
December 1st, 2007, 11:40 AM
Maybe. Or Shep thought of it more as giving Wallace a chance to redeem himself by saving the person who was dying because of him (Wallace) in the first place.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it this way.

Ruffles
December 1st, 2007, 11:40 AM
John did say he is not very good at expressing his feelings. We know McKay cannot make a phrase when it comes to emotions so in a way they are the same.

Turning now to the conversation itself, in my opinion, Rodney is shocked how far Sheppard would go for him. I mean we know Rodney would build a nuke from shoe laces if it would save John but so far we haven't actually seen how John would react to certain situations. The end emphasizes John's leadership skills BUT the cost is more than it should be...

The cost to whom? John? Wallace?

Let's take a step back and pretend that John doesn't go to Wallace. There is no way the man can volunteer since he doesn't know what's been going on or what a Wraith is. Someone would have to present the facts to allow him to choose.

If he doesn't volunteer, what next? Rodney will sacrifice himself for Jeannie. If John has him locked in a cell and guarded around the clock, what happens? Not only does Jeannie die but so does the Wraith. Rodney will never forgive John, and I can totally see the guilt preventing him from returning to Atlantis. Therefore the two beings that could rewrite the Replicator base code are now gone and the Replicators have free reign over Pegasus. So either Rodney dies or the Wraith dies.

Our third option is John taking matter in his own hands and offering his life to the Wraith. Of course, he is a military man in a military base under the command of Landry and O'Neill. The same way Sheppard can refuse to let McKay sacrifice himself is the same way Landry will order Shep not to. While John is known for disobeying orders, he can be tossed in a cell until the Wraith dies (or they can ship the Wraith back to Pegasus and let him die there). So either the Wraith dies or John dies. While I firmly believe that John would sacrifice his life to save Rodney and Jeannie, I don't think Rodney and Ronon would let him do it. And again, Jeannie dies.

This was a lose-lose situation for everyone involved. I think from a cold, strategic mindset, John saw which sacrifice would make the most sense. And it may be just a question of semantics, but Sheppard did not talk Wallace into killing himself. He talked him into giving his life - a subtle but distinct difference in the end. We are horrified by the way he died, but what he did was much closer to being an organ donor that putting a bullet in his brain.


There has always been an element of ruthlesness in Sheppard and I'm aware that is part of his character. What I don't like is the double standards. Just because Sheppard wants to protect his "family" doesn't give him a licence to do what he wants. Wallace was basically doing the exact same thing.. trying to save his family.. but yet from the beginning we are led to believe that he is wrong, and pretty much deserved what he got. Well why not the same for Sheppard. They were both driven to take extreme actions to save their families, but that should have been acknowledged. Why is Wallace deemed to be punished and Sheppard not, or at least admit that what he did was wrong, but that he has to live with it. If Sheppard had admitted that to Rodney in his quarters I wouldn't have such a problem with it .. but all I saw was him shirking all responsibility.

I thought the brilliance of this ep was the fact that Wallace was not doing this for money or power or any of our other normal "villain" mindsets, but out of a desire to save his child. It makes him a sympathetic character.

The difference is: Sheppard committed no crime. Wallace kidnapped 2 people, hurt Kaleb and Barrett, and knowingly injected Jeannie with a lethal substance - all criminal activity.

And I don't think Sheppard would ever actually admit to suffering from his decisions, especially to Rodney, but I think he conveyed that idea when he first told Rodney he didn't want to talk about it and the solemnity of their following discussion. Much the same way the only time we really see Sheppard reacting to shooting Sumner is in his conversation with Everett in The Siege ("Not a night goes by...")


The thing is though that Sheppard's actions seem to get applauded when he is saving one of his "family", but when he takes the tough decision in Lifeline to not save Weir he gets blasted. So as much as I want Sheppard to continue making tough decisons I don't want him to sink to new lows to do so.

No blasting from me on his decision to let Weir die in Adrift/Lifeline. He was right that it was too great a risk to take and that she wouldn't want it.


Of course it was morally wrong. It shows more about how dark the show is. Its the unethical questions that are the most interesting and shows just how deeply he cares for his team

I find it to be a little more like morally ambiguous.


But that was one of the good parts about the episode - Wallace was painted as a bad guy up until you realised his reasoning for kidnapping them and then things became much less certain. I thought that was a great reveal (not original granted but used well nonetheless) and suddenly had you as an audience feeling sorry for him and sympathising with his reasoning in way that completely changed your feelings for him. Steven Culp's acting did a lot to enhance this so kudos to him.

Agreed.


I also liked the way the audience's shift in attitude was reflected with Jeannie in that she wanted to help him whilst Rodney was typically more about looking out for himself and those he's close to rather than the stranger who'd kidnapped them. I thought it was quite true how Jeannie noted that Rodney couldn't possibly understand the man's desperation because he didn't have any children of his own.

I thought Rodney had a very good point. Jeannie assumes that Wallace really will let them go. Rodney's been around that block a few times. He doesn't know anything about this guy other than Wallace had Jeannie kidnapped at gunpoint in the middle of the night. He has no reason to believe the man will really let them go. Rodney came to Earth to bring his sister home to her family and that was what he was concentrating on. Although Rodney doesn't have the perspective of being a father, he's been in the Pegasus Galaxy long enough to learn to not trust what anybody says.


In the end it seemed to me that Sheppard gave Wallace the option and Wallace took it (understandably given he had nothing really to live for and could redeem himself by saving Jeannie). It is obvious from his manner at the end that he wasn't comfortable with what he did but I don't see it as black and white, straight out wrong. It wasn't a nice thing to have to contemplate but neither outcome was particularly appealing and I think he and Wallace both agreed that in the absence of a better choice, Jeannie had more to live for... After all Sheppard is a soldier and well used to putting value on life.

I really enjoyed those shades of grey and thought it made a good episode really interesting on a deeper level.

I agree. John made a decision to save the lives of those close to him. At least he didn't have to listen to 55 bodies hitting the gate shield this time.


It was a good episode but I do not like the fact that Ronons first trip to Earth was based on something so serious. Ronons first trip to Earth definitely should have been one of those comedic filler episodes & John takes him to I dont know Disney Land.

Ronon's first trip was in Sunday. This is just the first time he's been shown on Earth.


I think there is a plot hole in this episode. With the fact that in Common Ground John let the Wraith feed on him so he could get the strength & kick some ass yet at the end of the Episode that same Wraith gave John his life back & then some. Did the writers magically forget this ? Why did no one bring up that that same Wraith has shown that he can also give back the life force he takes & still be fine. Stupid writers & unnecessary plot holes.

First of all, in Common Ground the Wraith fed on John to have enough strength to fight the 2 Genii. After he fed off them he returned John's life to him.

The conversation between John and Rodney addresses this issue. John tells him there is no way to force the Wraith to give Rodney his life back. That would put the Wraith right back to starving again.


That's what I was thinking, lol. Didn't both Shep and Larrin describe it as a rather unpleasant sensation?

Quite the opposite. They both said it felt good.


I'm not afraid of whumpers. There bark is worse than there bite. Mckay could beat up a whumper, thats how weak they are.

Careful there, kiddo. Them's fighting words. ;)


Wallace would give up his freedom for his daughter.
Rodney would give up his life for his sister.
Sheppard would sell his soul for his "family".


I love the way you put this.

jelgate
December 1st, 2007, 11:43 AM
But at least that was a shade of grey. This was not a shade of grey. Sheppards act was evil, like offering a drug to someone. Yeah you know it will kill them but what the hell "they know they want it". I guess its OK to start harvesting other people for orgins to save "the right" people. In fact, I guess you can go ahead and make a deal with the wraith, give them all your prisoners let the "good" people live....oh wait thats already been done by the "bad guys" in one of the eps.
We could debate this issue forever (and we probably will:)) because every person has a different view on what is ethically accpeatable. Another poster mentioned that it comes down to life of Jeanie or the life of Wallace. As dark as it was for Sheppard to do what he did, the only alternative was to watch McKay sacrifice a person he considers a family. I know if a member of my family's life was threaten I would do anything to protect him or her. So I see it as protecting a person's life that you care about.

The cost to whom? John? Wallace?


I find it to be a little more like morally ambiguous.
Someties doing the ethical thing has to be overlooked to do the right thing






Careful there, kiddo. Them's fighting words. ;)
Take your best shot.
*Get out P-90*

Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel
December 1st, 2007, 11:44 AM
I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it this way.
:)

Although, I don't agree that what Shep did was 100% the right thing... It's a tough call, to say the least. I wouldn't trust myself to make the right decision in this situation, and I'm not sure it was Shep's decision either, but I do believe he did what he thought was the right thing all things considered.

jckfan55
December 1st, 2007, 11:55 AM
I'm not disputing what Wallace did was wrong Peg.. but the difference is he admitted it.. and was willing to be accountable for his actions.. so IMO so should Shep. Why can Shep go to extreme measures to save his family but yet not Wallace. Shep spoke to him with contempt and his main focus was getting him to kill himself so it would solve his problems..but he was placing a guilt trip on an unstable grieving father, and pretty much telling him that the best thing to make things right would be to kill himself.. make things right for who! Sheppard or Wallace. At that stage Wallace had killed no one... but yet Sheppard was still willing to offer him up for slaughter... to be fed on by a Wraith and he of all people knew how horrible that was.
Wallace wasn't a bad person, he admitted never wanting to harm anyone but I don't think Sheppard even cared.. his sole purpose was to use him to feed the Wraith in order to save Rodney...
Things have already gone back to normal and I'm sure this will never be touched on again.


I mostly agree with you. Wallace was willing to take responsibility for his actions. Rodney was willing to sacrifice himself to save his sister. (I thought maybe Rodney could get away with the wraith only "snacking' on him, not finishing him off.) The problem to me was that Sheppard seemed to have no problem basically feeding Wallace to the wraith. Did Wallace even know what he was agreeing to? Committing suicide to atone is one thing, getting the life sucked out of you by a horrible creature may be another.
Did Sheppard even think twice? There was no exploration of the morality. I've always thought Shep was a kind of weak character & this did nothing to improve things. We didn't even get the kind of intense look (often open to interpretation) that RDA did so well. :( (Which is not to say SG1 always followed up on things to my satisfaction either.)

And I have to agree with whoever mentioned the conversation between Rodney & Walter. Downright painful. :( The minutes they wasted on that could have been spent better dealing with the main storyline.

marielabbott
December 1st, 2007, 11:56 AM
I don't know what to think of this episode yet. There are too many morally troublesome questions for me to chew on to say I enjoyed it. While I like a certain amount of angst and darkness, I do tend to watch BSG when I want to feel depressed, not SGA. On the other hand, it is often the troublesome stories that bother me that tend to stick in my head and make me think, long after viewing or reading them. That was probably the intent of this episode.

After thinking about it, I can understand why Sheppard did what he did. But was it right? I really do not think so. I'll have to consider it more. It's definitely a very dark turn for a character I've always liked, and that bothers me more than satisfying me.

I'm hopefully looking forward to next week's episode....

freetoken
December 1st, 2007, 11:57 AM
What about Scorched Earth when O'Neill was going to kill one race to save another. Its not always black and white

Well, that is I suppose one of the writers' main points, that sometimes the "right" thing to do is not so obvious.

However, this episode and "Scorched Earth" present different situations so I don't think you can draw any parallels. The problem with Scorched Earth (and similar SG-1 episodes) is that the apparent "enemy" is so alien that, on the battlefield environment, Jack has to make the decision to defend Earth's allies.

Gen Hammond's SGC on the whole seemed to be more concerned with human rights and morality, e.g., Teal'c's entry into Earth. In Hammond's operation, the ends alone did not justify the means.

One might make a parallel (of what Shep did in this episode) with what Jack did to Fifth, and indeed at the end of that SG-1 episode the team was shown as being discomforted with the decision that Jack made. However, again that was on a battlefield and Fifth was not human but a machine. In that episode Jack, for the sake of saving his own company, sacrificed someone who, while being an antagonist, had (apparently) some redeemable qualities. Likewise, in Miller's Crossing Sheppard, for the sake of his own company (i.e., not letting McKay sacrifice himself) sacrificed the antagonist who also had redeemable qualities.

The important point though is that Millers Crossing is set on Earth, in Canada for part, and what Sheppard did is immoral as well as illegal (on many counts.)

Sheppard at times, and strongly in this episode, reminds me of the rouge NID operation. Indeed, I think it is not a coincidence that the writers brought back the NID into this episode. If Sheppard was still based on Earth he would be a prime candidate for a rogue NID operation.

Given Sheppard's inclination for the "ends justifies the means" morality, an interesting possibility for the future of SGA - though I doubt TPTB would go this direction as it would alienate part of the fan base - would be to have Shep go darker and independent (as is his character), and after a deep conflict with Carter (and her traditional SGC morality), have him set up an alternative anti-Wraith/PG-badguy operation in the PG, similar to the unauthorized NID operation that O'Neill busted. Shep (AWOL) and Ronan could move out of the SGA, meet up with (what's his name, the military guy that is out on his own in the PG...), and maybe have them cooperate with (but not be part of) the "Travelers". Leaving Carter and McKay at the SGA as the "good guys", with the Shep gang as the ruthless band.

It would make for more complex stories, and perhaps more interesting.

jckfan55
December 1st, 2007, 11:59 AM
What about Scorched Earth when O'Neill was going to kill one race to save another. Its not always black and white
Yes, but the episode was *about* that issue. It wasn't tacked on to the end and not dealt with.

Skydiver
December 1st, 2007, 12:02 PM
surely you guys can discuss and disagree without name calling???

I know you have it in you, so let's see if we can go one week without the mods having to babysit this thread

Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel
December 1st, 2007, 12:03 PM
:eek: I've gotten a few greens from people saying how my first post here was well said... Thanks, but you poeple have no idea how hard it is for me to say anything well! :o

And on that note: BOOM! (that would be my head) too much thinking... must stop... must watch something mindless.... ow.

OK, I'm totally OT... ignore me. :o

starfox
December 1st, 2007, 12:17 PM
I loved the moral ambiguity in this episode. Making Wallace such a sympathetic character as well as the villain of the episode turned expectations for the correct way to handle the situation upside down. I loved Sheppard being ruthless and cutthroat; it's the way I like my heroes. No one does the right thing all the time; people who think they do are lying to themselves. I like that John was willing to get his hands dirty, and that he felt guilty about it afterwards. Yes, Wallace comes off as much more sympathetic that Sheppard in this episode, which is what makes his death such a gut-punch. Whether it was wrong or right is up to you to decide, as it should be. Perfect heroes make for boring stories and morally dubious decisions make for interesting discussions and acknowledgement of the fact that the world is not black and white. To quote Rodney, "Let's just for a second imagince that we live in this magical land of unicorns and wizards and kind-hearted people who you can take at their word." We don't. And even though Wallace turned out to be more or less a decent human being in the end, his actions had consequences, and those consequences needed to be dealt with. I'm not saying that killing him was the right thing to do, but I cannot with certainty say that it was the wrong thing to do, either. I'm going to have to take the Sheppard approach on this one and say that it happened and the characters now have to deal with it. Which means they'll internalize their guilt and not talk about it until the IOA needs something to hang over their heads, but that's a different story altogether.


As for Rodney's initial reluctance to help the girl, I've gotta agree with Ruffles on this one. He's been kidnapped a time or two; he knows the dark side of what desperate people are willing to do, and this guy appeared to Rodney to be a textbook villain. He had people burst into Jeannie's house in the middle of the night and kidnap her at gunpoint, then set a trap to kidnap Rodney as well. None of this gives McKay any incentive to talke the man at his word.

I loved the scene with Rodney asking John to let him in with the Wraith (I'm assuming John was put in charge of the Wraith security detail), and the guilt conversation they had in that scene. I think it paralleled the conversation they had in "The Seer" and that guilt is going to be a big thing for both of those characters this season. As a cohesive unit with intertwining plot lines and themes, this season is holding up much better than the previous ones, and I can't wait to see this trend continute.

Falcon Horus
December 1st, 2007, 12:23 PM
Well, this might just be the shortest review I'll ever give again....

*yawn*




No seriously....

++

* no Carter
* the McKay's are funny to watch... David and Kate are wonderful in their parts.
* Ronon .... *runs for another cold shower* ... Yikes, the man made the clothes look good. Jason Momoa looked HOT!! And I'm not the shallow type, but this was hard to miss. :ronananime25:


--

* Who was this Sheppard-clone and where did the real one go? Morals out the window, like they never even existed in the first place. The means justifying the ends (or however the saying goes). That was first degree murder, even if he didn't pull the trigger himself. Can't find anything good about what he did.
* no Teyla ... yeah, she's been reduced to back-up singer once again (and don't give me the crap about her so-called arc with the Athosians, that's a boatload of BS :teyla30: )
* if I want to watch 24 or Alias or any other detective/investigating/kidnapping story I'll watch Without A Trace or Cold Case, or CSI even. This is Stargate Atlantis for cryin' out loud. I watched an episode of Stargate (there was a gate) and not even a good one at that.


This was yet again, a 42 minute waste of my time...which I could have used to watch Childhood's End instead.