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Major_Griff
November 22nd, 2007, 10:26 PM
As far as we know, Todd has had no contact with Michael so how did he know that atlantis wasn't destroyed during the Siege? Also, how did he know about our alliance with the hive in Allies? And how did he know about the cities cloak? These are all things that no Wraith is aware of except Michael, and he is too busy with his superbugs to try and ally himself with other Wraith. So how did Todd know?

2ndgenerationalteran
November 23rd, 2007, 01:28 AM
is todd the name of our new prisoner wraith?

well i guess him and michael are both seemingly outcasted wraith they may have crossed paths before. plus the news that atlantis is still out there isnt a complete secret, ronan's wraith worshiper friends new that atlantis still was out there, all 'todd' did was set a trap that they he knew we would walk into.

Nathan Reynolds
November 23rd, 2007, 01:37 AM
Like mentioned above ronin's friends knew that atlantis was around somewhere... so maybe news of atlantis existence is still out there if you know where to look :teyla:
As far as the shields, didnt atlantis had shields in the time of the ancients, if Todd happend the be one of those really old Wraith or knew one of the old bones we could know about the city shield... I think :sheppard:

FallenAngelII
November 23rd, 2007, 03:13 AM
Lucky guess? Or he guessed they were hiding out on a random planet somewhere? He never did say that Atlantis (the city) was still around, did he?

Major_Griff
November 23rd, 2007, 08:01 AM
okay so he could have heard about atlantis like Ronon's friends or just thought they were hiding out somewhere, but it still doesn't answer how he knew about the cloak and how he knew about the Alliance with the hive from Allies.

Avenger
November 23rd, 2007, 10:28 AM
No doubt that word gets around. After all, there are Atlantis teams going through the gate all the time and they don't really try to hide the fact that they are the people who were occupying Atlantis.

ciannwn
November 23rd, 2007, 11:23 AM
Also, how did he know about our alliance with the hive in Allies?

Michael was picked up by Wraith at the end of 'Misbegotten'. He must have told them about the events of 'Allies'. After all, they'd want to know how and why this odd looking Wraith came to be stranded on the planet.

Todd was picked up by Wraith at the end of 'Common Ground'. He could have heard about the events of 'Allies' from Wraith who'd learned of them via Michael.

FallenAngelII
November 24th, 2007, 03:09 AM
No doubt that word gets around. After all, there are Atlantis teams going through the gate all the time and they don't really try to hide the fact that they are the people who were occupying Atlantis.
They've been peddling the story that they all evacuated and left the city to blow up empty. They are merely the survivors now operation out of an Alpha Site.


Michael was picked up by Wraith at the end of 'Misbegotten'. He must have told them about the events of 'Allies'. After all, they'd want to know how and why this odd looking Wraith came to be stranded on the planet.

Todd was picked up by Wraith at the end of 'Common Ground'. He could have heard about the events of 'Allies' from Wraith who'd learned of them via Michael.
1) No he didn't. If he did, he'd be dead. That Hive exploded, remember? Much like princess Bunhead in Thumb Wars, he "escaped... somehow".
2) No, Michael did not tell them about the events of "Allies". Michael is, after all, honourable (in his own way). He promised not to tell, so he's not. After all, if he did tell, Atlantis would be gone for real since the Wraith would have had 10 or so months between when he first escaped the "Misbegotten" genocide and Atlantis changed locations.
3) And none of them decided to attack Atlantis why?

ciannwn
November 24th, 2007, 05:12 AM
1) No he didn't. If he did, he'd be dead. That Hive exploded, remember?

From Vengeance -

MICHAEL: Do you not recall our last encounter? How you left me to die on that desolate planet? The hive that finally rescued me -- they could tell something was different. They sensed the human in me. To them, I was unclean. I barely escaped that hive with my life.

This clearly states that he was picked up by Wraith. I also checked the 'Misbegotten' transcript.

Sheppard and his team are in the captured hive ship when they bombard the planet. The Wraith arrive and start firing on the captured hive. There are several instances where we're told that the captured hive couldn't survive combat.

McKAY:.... Look, we're using up a lot of our power reserves to maintain this speed. We're not gonna have a lot left over to fight with.

and

SHEPPARD: How're you doing with the weapons?

McKAY: We couldn't hit the side of a barn.

SHEPPARD: But hive ships are a hundred times bigger ...

McKAY (interrupting): A giant, flying barn! We couldn't hit that.

and

SHEPPARD: ....The other hive ship's gonna be here any minute and we won't survive a battle. It's my call.

The rescue hive arrives.

McKAY: It's the other hive! We're taking multiple hits!

and

(The Bridge shakes violently again.)

McKAY: Engines are offline! We're venting atmosphere! Power's about to fail.

(As the planetary bombardment continues, the enemy hive draws alongside our hive, inundating it with weapons fire. Explosions go off all over the hull.)

When the Daedalus arrives there's wreckage from a hive ship and Sheppard and his team are in the Puddle Jumper.

SHEPPARD: You got here in good time, Colonel. We were looking at a long ride home.

It comes across to me that it was the captured hive ship which blew up, not the one that arrived in response to Michael's telepathic distress call.


No, Michael did not tell them about the events of "Allies". Michael is, after all, honourable (in his own way). He promised not to tell, so he's not.

I'm not sure how much loyalty Michael would be feeling towards the expedition after the events in Misbegotten. He helps them in 'No Man's Land' and is then given the RV again and put on the planet with the other humanised Wraith. Sheppard and co first try to blow him and the other prisoners up with a nuclear bomb.

PLANET. CAVE. A panel on the side of a nuclear bomb is flashing and beeping. Michael is squatting beside it.

MICHAEL: Now you see what they really think of us.

(Two other Wraith are squatting on the other side of the bomb.)

WRAITH: I don't understand.

(Michael stands up.)

MICHAEL: The bomb is receiving a detonation signal. If I hadn't deactivated it, we'd all be dead.

Sheppard and co then fire on the camp in attempt to kill Michael and the other Wraith.

When we meet him again in 'Vengeance' he doesn't sound as if he'd care about any promises he gave the expedition in the past. He's captured Teyla and intends to feed her to an Iratus bug.

MICHAEL: Your friends are coming for you.

MICHAEL (walking over to Teyla): They’ll meet the same fate as you, one by one.

When Teyla pleads with him he says -

MICHAEL: After what you did to me -- twice -- how could you expect anything less?

MICHAEL: Your experiment failed. You decided to kill us.


After all, if he did tell, Atlantis would be gone for real since the Wraith would have had 10 or so months between when he first escaped the "Misbegotten" genocide and Atlantis changed locations.

Michael isn't 100% Wraithlike now so, in order to explain this, he could have given his own, version of the Allies events. As the camp had been blown up he could have said that all the RV experiments had taken place in a research facility on this planet etc.

Why might he have kept the location of Atlantis a secret? Maybe he was picked up by a weaker Wraith faction so he held onto the information in hope that he could worm his way into a stronger faction later on. He never got to use it, though, because all Wraith rejected him for his human taint. I'm wondering what that was and if something in 'No Man's Land' gives a clue.

MICHAEL: You should have told me. (The Queen looks at him enquiringly.) That we were going to betray the Atlanteans.

HIVE QUEEN: Are you feeling sympathy for them?

MICHAEL: No. But I don't understand why I wasn't told. I told you of their plan because I believed it was a viable way ...

HIVE QUEEN (interrupting): You're only alive because you still may prove to be useful. But I fear, Michael, that the lingering stench of what they have transformed you into will never fade.

Wraith fight each other and even feed on each other in an emergency. They could all draw the line at humanising hivefulls of Wraith, though, and using them as a food source. If Michael tried to propose this as a viable way again, his new hive could have turned against him and spread the word to others.

There could be another reason why Michael didn't reveal the location of Atlantis. It was convenient for the plot and we viewers aren't supposed to wonder about things like that. :D

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2007, 03:31 AM
MICHAEL: Do you not recall our last encounter? How you left me to die on that desolate planet? The hive that finally rescued me -- they could tell something was different. They sensed the human in me. To them, I was unclean. I barely escaped that hive with my life.
I.e., not the same hive as the one we saw blow up. In fact, it took quite a while for him to get rescued! He was picked up by the Wraith, yes. But he was not picked up by the Wraith "at the end of 'Misbegotten'", which was what I was arguing against.

However, I could be remembering things wrong and maybe that ship didn't blow up.

And then comes to problem with Michael telling other Wraith Atlantis still exists. If a single Hive knew it was still around, the information would be spread through the Wraith Intelligence Network like fire and 10-20 hives would be raining down on Atlantis within a few weeks.

Of course he didn't tell anyone. What would it matter if the Hive that picked him up was weak or whatever? The Wraith are still a race with a deep hatred for the Atlantis expedition since they keep foiling them and reducing their numbers. If they got whiff of Atlantis still being around, they wouldn't even need to know about the retrovirus to have an incentive to blow it into smithereens.

No, Michael did not tell anyone. Otherwise, there'd be no show left to watch.

ciannwn
November 25th, 2007, 06:16 AM
However, I could be remembering things wrong and maybe that ship didn't blow up.

The script transcript gives me the definite impression that it was the captured hive ship that blew up. After all, where is that captured hive ship now? :) Logically the Daedalus would have scanned the planet for life signs once Sheppard and co were aboard. If Michael was still down there he'd have been found unless he went into hibernation because Wraith can't be detected then.


And then comes to problem with Michael telling other Wraith Atlantis still exists. If a single Hive knew it was still around, the information would be spread through the Wraith Intelligence Network like fire and 10-20 hives would be raining down on Atlantis within a few weeks.

Sateda is two stories after Misbegotten. Ronon is handed over to the Wraith and it must have been common knowledge by then that he'd joined the Atlantis humans. The Satedan hive leader is killed by a drone fired from a Puddle Jumper and the hive ship fires on the Jumper as they all try to escape.

As they run towards the Jumper, a blast comes out of the sky from the hive ship and impacts the ground behind them.

and

(The Jumper heads up into the sky as blasts rain down all around it.)


SPACE. Safely out of range of the hive, Rodney and Carson get out of their seats, open the bulkhead doors and hurry into the rear of the Jumper.

There were obviously Wraith still on this hive because somebody had to be operating the weapons. There was no indication that Sheppard and co blew it up with the Puddle Jumper weapons so we have to assume that these Wraith got away. It wouldn't take much deduction on the Wraith's part to reach the conclusion that Atlantis humans were still around. After all, how many Pegasus galaxy humans use Puddle Jumpers and would want to rescue Ronon?

'Irresistable' is the story immediately after 'Misbegotten' and Sheppard and his team are visiting another planet. Sateda starts out with Sheppard and co visiting a planet and a comment by Rodney suggests why they'd gone there.

McKAY: I also see nothing we might be interested in trading for.

In 'Phantoms' we learn that other teams have been visiting planets in the Pegasus galaxy as well.

SHEPPARD: Elizabeth, we may have a situation. Major Leonard’s team -- they’re late returning from M1B-129.

Finally, in 'Irresponsible' we learn that Sheppard and his team meet up with Lucius on yet another planet.

The 'Common Ground' Wraith might have invented a story to explain how he'd happened to turn up after many years without any aid from Sheppard but Atlantis expedition members (and at least one Puddle Jumper) would have been seen all over the place. It would have been a miracle if the news didn't get round to one or more Wraith worshippers fairly quickly.

In 'Reunion', Tyre says (about Ronon's expedition friends) -

I won’t doubt they’re good people; they helped you out when you needed it, and from what I hear, they’ve done more to hurt the Wraith than anyone.

Ronon doesn't find this comment odd. As 'Reunion' takes place soon after 'Adrift' and 'Lifeline' it suggests that news about the Atlantis personnel being alive was likely known before the city changed location.


No, Michael did not tell anyone. Otherwise, there'd be no show left to watch.

I think people are puzzled by the following -

CARTER: I understand you're proposing that we work together on a joint venture.

WRAITH: That is correct.

CARTER: Last time we went down this road, things didn't exactly work out the way we'd hoped.

WRAITH: You were betrayed. Believe me, I understand your reluctance.

This really does give the impression that the reference is to the events in Allies and that the betrayal was known to the Wraith. The only ways they could have known were if (a) Michael gave his own version of the story to explain how he'd become different. MICHAEL: The hive that finally rescued me -- they could tell something was different. They sensed the human in me. Unless turning a bit human is a common occurrence amongst Wraith the others would have wanted to know what happened. Maybe Michael wasn't the only survivor (if he escaped the final planetary bombardment some of the others could have as well) so Wraith might have learned something from them. (b) Sheppard told the fellow captive Wraith about it sometime during the events of 'Common Ground' but we didn't get this scene on TV. This is highly unlikely, though, because they were too busy with trying to survive and escape to swap life histories.

The final possibility is that the Wraith just made a lucky guess as to why things didn't work out as hoped. :)

We're left with a lot of questions.

1: Why didn't Michael tell Wraith about Atlantis after the way he'd been treated? After all, he was prepared to feed Sheppard's team to Iratus bugs so it shows he didn't love them very much. :)

2: Why wasn't Michael subjected to a Wraith mind probe to extract information from him? Did he escape before this could happen?

3: Why didn't the Wraith suspect that Atlantis was still around, especially after Sateda? Did they think the expedition personnel had evacuated the city (with Puddle Jumpers) before it blew up?

Wraith_Boy
November 25th, 2007, 06:31 AM
okay so he could have heard about atlantis like Ronon's friends or just thought they were hiding out somewhere, but it still doesn't answer how he knew about the cloak and how he knew about the Alliance with the hive from Allies.

The Alliance could have easily been explained. If you remember a Hive picked up Michael & his buds from the planet in 'Misbegotten'. Any fo those Wraith could have spilled the beans, Todd could have been aboard & found out first hand. It may have been a Hive that was loyal to him & they told him if he wasn't there in person.

If the Wraith know Atlantis still exists, then they obviously knew a rouse was in place after the nuke exploded. It didn't show up on their sensors, not did it fly past them. So it would be logical given the Lanteans ability to cloak things that this is what they done. It's there one minute & gone the next. No sign of it taking off or going under the water etc on their sensors. So logic would dictate that they cloaked it.

It would have been far easier if they included a brief bit of dialogue to sort it out, however there is a few things in the past they've done the same on. Let's just say fine details isn't amongst their strong points!

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2007, 08:03 AM
So it all boils down to a giant plothole.

Scenario A:
The Wraith knew (somehow). And they were too stupid or busy to attack Atlantis, the one group of people who has, in three years, taken down, what, 12-15 of their hives?

Scenario B:
They didn't know. But there are lots of hints that they knew.

Either way, it's stupid.

rarocks24
November 25th, 2007, 12:15 PM
So it all boils down to a giant plothole.

Scenario A:
The Wraith knew (somehow). And they were too stupid or busy to attack Atlantis, the one group of people who has, in three years, taken down, what, 12-15 of their hives?

Scenario B:
They didn't know. But there are lots of hints that they knew.

Either way, it's stupid.

There's actually another Scenario.

Scenario C: The Wraith don't buy it this time. Atlantis really does destroy itself.

garhkal
November 25th, 2007, 02:49 PM
And then comes to problem with Michael telling other Wraith Atlantis still exists. If a single Hive knew it was still around, the information would be spread through the Wraith Intelligence Network like fire and 10-20 hives would be raining down on Atlantis within a few weeks.


The 2 hives from Allies knew of atlantis's survival, but did not share the info with other wraith.. So why would that one which picked up michael share it?

PG15
November 25th, 2007, 02:58 PM
The Wraith were busy with the civil war, and attacking Atlantis now, with its shields and ZPM, etc. would be kinda suicide for any small Wraith task force (which would be the only kind of task force the Wraith can form at this time of civil war).

And now they're busy with the Asurans.

wise one
November 25th, 2007, 03:16 PM
todd knew of atlantis since ronans friends(wraith worshippers) master wraith was working on deactivating the asuran replicators so on passing he must of told the master everthiny and todd found out and must of had something to do with sheppard..

the cloak he could of got from the athosians since they possiblt been culled and 'shrounded in darkness' there in wraith pods!!!!(me thinks)

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2007, 04:33 PM
The Wraith were busy with the civil war, and attacking Atlantis now, with its shields and ZPM, etc. would be kinda suicide for any small Wraith task force (which would be the only kind of task force the Wraith can form at this time of civil war).

And now they're busy with the Asurans.
Suicide? How the hell would it be suicide? They have a single ZPM (which isn't even full). The other two, who knows how depleted they are? The Atlantis shield vs. a few hive ships will last only a few days, tops. 10-20 hives? Watch that shield go!

Not to mention that the Wraith have no reason to just assume that we've magically got a bunch of ZPMs or even just the one to power our weapons now or that we have drones (which will eventually run out).

And if Michael had told the others about the continued survival of Atlantis back in "Misbegotten" or anytime between it and "Lifeline", well, the Wraith would have ignored their petty little civil war. After all, the supposedly stranded Atlantis expedition was still going around destroying hives. The Wraith would've temporarily banded together to blow Atlantis to Kingdom Come and then went back to their little civil war.

Unless you're assuming they're too stupid to think strategically.

Mitchell82
November 25th, 2007, 04:38 PM
I.e., not the same hive as the one we saw blow up. In fact, it took quite a while for him to get rescued! He was picked up by the Wraith, yes. But he was not picked up by the Wraith "at the end of 'Misbegotten'", which was what I was arguing against.

However, I could be remembering things wrong and maybe that ship didn't blow up.
But he was picked up by Wraith and hence the Wraith know Atlantis is still around just not where it was. Also it was our hive that blew not the one Michael was picked up by.


And then comes to problem with Michael telling other Wraith Atlantis still exists. If a single Hive knew it was still around, the information would be spread through the Wraith Intelligence Network like fire and 10-20 hives would be raining down on Atlantis within a few weeks.Only a few Wraith knew the truth and most of them were killed. However the information was out there they just needed to know where to look. Mot likely though he "Todd" figured it out in Common Ground when he saw Shep leave.


Of course he didn't tell anyone. What would it matter if the Hive that picked him up was weak or whatever? The Wraith are still a race with a deep hatred for the Atlantis expedition since they keep foiling them and reducing their numbers. If they got whiff of Atlantis still being around, they wouldn't even need to know about the retrovirus to have an incentive to blow it into smithereens.

No, Michael did not tell anyone. Otherwise, there'd be no show left to watch.

I agree Michael most likely didn't tell however they won't attack because they know we are their best hope od survival at the moment.

s09119
November 25th, 2007, 04:45 PM
Todd never said he knew about Atlantis, he just wanted to talk with Sheppard. I'm pretty sure the Wraith know by now that the Atlanteans are still alive (on another world), though they may still think the city itself is gone. So that point's covered now.

As for the alliance, I'm sure word has spread by now about the Wraith who got their butts kicked by the humans when they tried to double-cross the Atlanteans. I mean, someone probably caught wind of what was going on or heard from a Wraith who knew someone aboard the traitorous hives. *shrug*

And as for the cloak, the Wraith should know by now about that, seeing as;
1. They were fooled into thinking the city was destroyed.
2. It was then made apparent that Atlantis was still around.
Surely they'd have figured out the most likely reasons by now (a cloak).

PG15
November 25th, 2007, 05:05 PM
Suicide? How the hell would it be suicide? They have a single ZPM (which isn't even full). The other two, who knows how depleted they are? The Atlantis shield vs. a few hive ships will last only a few days, tops. 10-20 hives? Watch that shield go!

Ah, but that's my point! With the civil war going, I find it difficult to believe that the Wraith can gather together 10-20 hives that will actually work together instead of warring among themselves.


And if Michael had told the others about the continued survival of Atlantis back in "Misbegotten" or anytime between it and "Lifeline", well, the Wraith would have ignored their petty little civil war. After all, the supposedly stranded Atlantis expedition was still going around destroying hives. The Wraith would've temporarily banded together to blow Atlantis to Kingdom Come and then went back to their little civil war.

Yeah, I don't think that's gonna happen. First all, it's not THAT easy to come together when you've been fighting for the better part of a year, and second, with waring hives, you get those who just don't care if another hive gets blown up simply because they're enemy hives. Communication between hives also break down due to hostilities, and thus the Wraith won't even know that hives are still being taken down by the expedition. How many hives have we taken down since "The Siege 3" anyway? Let's count:

The Hive: 2 hive ships. This shouldn't count since technically the hives destroyed themselves. If any other hives know about this, it would just be another skirmish in the continuing civil war, and thus it's unlikely the expedition would be blamed.

No Man's Land: 1 hive blown up, 1 taken. This is yet another special case since the 2 hives were off the grid to the other hives, so again they wouldn't know that these hives have disappeared.

Misbegotten: Well, I cruised through the transcript, and it seems the enemy hive just opened fire on the team the moment it dropped out of hyperspace. I don't know what to make this one, to be honest.

And that's it, I'm pretty sure.

Anyway, I think it's pretty apparent that we haven't actually done much destruction since we hid ourselves, so we're not that much of a target at the moment.

FallenAngelII
November 25th, 2007, 07:29 PM
But he was picked up by Wraith and hence the Wraith know Atlantis is still around just not where it was. Also it was our hive that blew not the one Michael was picked up by.
He was picked up by the Wraith in Misbegotten, which was almost a full year before Atlantis relocated. There was absolutely no reason for them to not have gone back to destroy Atlantis if Michael had told them Atlantis was still around! Timeframe here, people!

Not a single Hive attacked Atlantis, so they did not know.


Only a few Wraith knew the truth and most of them were killed. However the information was out there they just needed to know where to look. Mot likely though he "Todd" figured it out in Common Ground when he saw Shep leave.
Todd had been a prisoner for probably years. There's no way he'd even know about Atlantis' new inhabitants.


I agree Michael most likely didn't tell however they won't attack because they know we are their best hope od survival at the moment.
They didn't back in Misbegotten. If Michael told them about Atlantis' continued survival back in Misbegotten (and I keep bolding that fact because people keep forgetting that back then, the Asurans hadn't even been visited by the Tau'ri yet and were hence no threat to the Asurans!), they'd have had no reason to not destroy the city!

All this leads to one single logical conclusion: Michael told them nothing.

PG15
November 25th, 2007, 09:11 PM
What's there to gain in destroying the city?

FallenAngelII
November 26th, 2007, 03:31 AM
What's there to gain in destroying the city?
* Revenge for killing them all.
* Revenge for awakening the Asuran attack code.
* Prevention of the future killing of Wraith at the hands of the Atlantis expedition. While there was less of that in season 3, we're still running around killing them.

All they have to do is continously gate into Atlantis and keep a wormhole open to force them to stay in Atlantis and then bombard the city from above 'til the shields break down and we'll be sitting ducks once our drones run out.

ciannwn
November 26th, 2007, 04:31 AM
He was picked up by the Wraith in Misbegotten, which was almost a full year before Atlantis relocated. There was absolutely no reason for them to not have gone back to destroy Atlantis if Michael had told them Atlantis was still around! Timeframe here, people!

Not a single Hive attacked Atlantis, so they did not know.

'Irresistable' is the story after 'Misbegotten'. Lucius has run out of his herb because Wraith are now occupying the planet it grows on. He sends Teyla, Ronon and Beckett there to get a new supply and we know they met up wtih Wraith because Ronon is firing back through the event horizon on their return.

SHEPPARD: Well, I guess we can assume there are Wraith on that planet. (He turns to Lucius and glares at him.)

TEYLA (smiling): Yes. Many.

Beckett and Teyla were wearing standard Atlantis expedition clothing when they ran into all these Wraith. They were also accompanied by a very distinctive looking guy with a particular kind of gun which isn't exactly common in Pegasus galaxy societies.

Sheppard and co and other Atlantis teams visited planets in the Pegasus galaxy during Season 2 and Season 3. They wore their uniforms, carried their Earth weapons, sometimes used a Puddle Jumper and Beckett even had his medical kit with him at one time. (Irresponsible - Lucius is telling one of his stories to the townspeople and Beckett takes a blood sample in the middle of it.) Finally, the Satedan hive fired on a Puddle Jumper.

Why didn't the Wraith suspect Atlantis was still around? The answer could be in 'Condemned'.

MAGISTRATE: Where do you come from?

SHEPPARD: Until recently, uh, Atlantis.

MAGISTRATE: The ancestral city.

SHEPPARD: Yeah. Unfortunately it was destroyed by the Wraith a short time ago.

MAGISTRATE: How tragic.

and

TEYLA: We are part of a small group of people that were able to escape.

The secret is that Atlantis still exists, not that some Atlantis personnel are still alive.


If Michael told them about Atlantis' continued survival back in Misbegotten (and I keep bolding that fact because people keep forgetting that back then, the Asurans hadn't even been visited by the Tau'ri yet and were hence no threat to the Asurans!), they'd have had no reason to not destroy the city!

All this leads to one single logical conclusion: Michael told them nothing.

We have to assume that the Wraith, along with most Pegasus galaxy humans, believed that the city had been destroyed but some of the Atlantis personnel survived. For reasons unknown Michael could have gone along with this and pretended that the events in 'Allies' had taken place on the planet he'd been picked up from. After all, according to the cover story, the Atlantis refugees and their Puddle Jumpers would have to be based somewhere. If Michael really did adapt the 'Allies' events for his own purposes the Wraith would just assume that the Atlantis people had moved to another base because they certainly wouldn't hang around when they knew a hive ship had turned up.

The real question is why would Michael keep quiet about Atlantis still being there after the events in 'Misbegotten'? If the other Wraith were turning against him because he was 'different' why didn't he reveal this information in an attempt to regain standing in Wraith society? Why would he care about a promise to people he's prepared to feed to Iratus bugs the next time he meets up with them?

I'm guessing that viewers are meant to think that the Wraith civil war is the explanation for the Wraith not joining up to destroy Atlantis even if Michael had revealed it was still around. It mightn't be logical to many people's way of thinking but the SGA writers have a habit of being vague instead of providing convincing details.


Unless you're assuming they're too stupid to think strategically.

All Stargate universe 'bad guys' are too stupid to think strategically when it suits the plot. :) The Allies Queen devised an elaborate plan to deceive the Atlantis expedition but she then falls into the comic book villain gloating mode by keeping Ronon and Rodney alive -

WRAITH: The Queen wants you to live long enough to witness the fruits of your labour.

The Wraith are even too stupid to check their prisoners for weapons or other equipment before sticking them in the storage pods so Ronon is able to cut himself and then Rodney free with a knife.

FallenAngelII
November 26th, 2007, 06:08 AM
'Irresistable' is the story after 'Misbegotten'. Lucius has run out of his herb because Wraith are now occupying the planet it grows on. He sends Teyla, Ronon and Beckett there to get a new supply and we know they met up wtih Wraith because Ronon is firing back through the event horizon on their return.

Beckett and Teyla were wearing standard Atlantis expedition clothing when they ran into all these Wraith. They were also accompanied by a very distinctive looking guy with a particular kind of gun which isn't exactly common in Pegasus galaxy societies.
It's common knowledge that the Atlantis expedition survived the Big Kaboom. The story they've been peddling is that they evacuated the city before blowing it up. After all, that's what non-suicidal people would do.

So as far as anyone knows for sure, Atlantis blew up into smithereens with the Atlantis expedition evacuating through the gate and now operating out of an Alpha Site.


We have to assume that the Wraith, along with most Pegasus galaxy humans, believed that the city had been destroyed but some of the Atlantis personnel survived. For reasons unknown Michael could have gone along with this and pretended that the events in 'Allies' had taken place on the planet he'd been picked up from. After all, according to the cover story, the Atlantis refugees and their Puddle Jumpers would have to be based somewhere. If Michael really did adapt the 'Allies' events for his own purposes the Wraith would just assume that the Atlantis people had moved to another base because they certainly wouldn't hang around when they knew a hive ship had turned up.
Yes, but according to a lot of people in this thread, Michael probably told them that the city was still around, yet the Wraith ignored it. This is what I'm arguing against.

There is absolutely no logical reason for the Wraith to not band together and blow Atlantis into smithereens should they even suspect the city's still around (every time they came back to check, we probably cloaked the city). After all, we're responsible to their numbers diminishing vastly first by blowing up Hives ourselves and then by re-activating the Kill All Asurans code.

rarocks24
November 26th, 2007, 06:33 AM
FAII, why would the Wraith attack a city that's been keeping a low profile. Not to mention with a city shield and cloak? What would be the point.

If one were to think logically, the Wraith would probably have come to the conclusion that the more leakage there is of their existence, the more likely they are to devise a means of protecting the city. The city's greatest defense has not been it's shield, though it plays a significant part in it, it's been the ocean it sits on. It's preserved the city for 10,000 years, what's to assume anything's different?

ciannwn
November 26th, 2007, 08:32 AM
So as far as anyone knows for sure, Atlantis blew up into smithereens with the Atlantis expedition evacuating through the gate and now operating out of an Alpha Site.

Michael could have adapted the events of 'Allies' and said that it all took place at the Alpha Site or some other Atlantis personnel base. I'm guessing he would want to leave out little details about him switching sides and helping Sheppard and co. and the Queen not telling him the full plan because she despised him. After all, the full truth wouldn't exactly endear him to other Wraith.


Yes, but according to a lot of people in this thread, Michael probably told them that the city was still around, yet the Wraith ignored it. This is what I'm arguing against.

Some people are puzzled as to how Todd knew the Atlantis expedition was betrayed the last time they worked with Wraith. Did he just make a lucky guess concerning what Carter meant by "Last time we went down this road, things didn't exactly work out the way we'd hoped." Did somebody tell him once he was on Atlantis but they didn't show the scene in 'The Seer'? Is there something in the story people have missed (or in the transcript where I'm concerned because I'm in England so won't get to see it until tomorrow evening)?


There is absolutely no logical reason for the Wraith to not band together and blow Atlantis into smithereens should they even suspect the city's still around (every time they came back to check, we probably cloaked the city).

The writers have left it up to the viewers to rack their brains and try to figure out why Michael didn't tell other Wraith about Atlantis.

In 'No Man's Land' Michael learns that the Queen didn't tell him all her plans because she despises him. As a result he switches sides in the hope that the Atlantis expedition will give him supplies and a ship. In 'Misbegotten' he's given the RV again without his consent and he's put on the planet with the other humanised Wraith. Sheppard and co then try to kill him and the other Wraith twice - the bomb and firing on the camp from the captured hive. We have to assume that Michael had left the camp by then but he couldn't have got far enough away to be oblivious to what was going on. As the captured hive was still in the process of firing on the planet when the rescue hive arrived, he'd have had confirmation concerning what he'd heard and observed. What possible motive would he have for keeping Atlantis a secret after the way the Atlantis expedition had treated him?

Michael isn't the only Wraith to get back memory and he organises a group into sending a telepathic distress call. He's obviously hoping that the members of a rescue hive will accept him at first and he's even intending to use the still humanised Wraith as an offering. "MICHAEL: The strong survive, Doctor. The few of us who began to realise something was wrong got together and formed a plan even while on the medication. The weaker minds among us will stay that way, thanks to your drugs and the training you gave us."

If things had gone according to plan the rescue hive would have picked up Michael, the other Wraith who got their memories back plus a group of human looking men with long white hair (apart from the one who was bald). Wouldn't the rescue hive Wraith want to know what had happened? Wouldn't Michael have devised some version of the 'Allies' events in advance in order to explain it?

So lets try some speculation.

1: Michael was the sole survivor.

2: Michael wasn't the sole survivor. The other Wraith who were picked up, though, were either (a) those who, according to Michael, were weaker minds who would never get their memories back or (b) hive members who didn't have the faintest idea what part of the galaxy their hive was in when the Queen, her scientist and Michael left it in a cruiser for a destination unknown or (c) a mixture of both.

3: Michael gives his own version of the 'Allies' events to explain why he (and maybe other survivors) are different. After all, he'd surely try to buy himself some time even if he planned on leaving this hive as soon as possible. If the inhabitants of this hive had gone "Yuk" the moment he'd come aboard it's difficult to imagine how he managed to escape because they'd have turned on him immediately. Maybe they took a little while to decide that he was 'unclean' and reject him. Why did they decide he was unclean? The 'Allies' Queen could have despised him because he thought that turning other Wraith into humans and eating them was a good idea.

MICHAEL: You should have told me. (The Queen looks at him enquiringly.) That we were going to betray the Atlanteans.

HIVE QUEEN: Are you feeling sympathy for them?

MICHAEL: No. But I don't understand why I wasn't told. I told you of their plan because I believed it was a viable way ...

HIVE QUEEN (interrupting): You're only alive because you still may prove to be useful. But I fear, Michael, that the lingering stench of what they have transformed you into will never fade.

If some of the other Wraith survived it could be that one of them knew that the Queen didn't trust Michael and why. After he'd passed this information on the members of the rescue hive rejected Michael too.

4: Michael doesn't tell the other Wraith about Atlantis just in case they turn on him as well. Sheppard and Co are good at blowing up hives and killing Wraith so this would leave less Wraith to go after Michael. The only problem here is that the Atlantis personnel would still be around to hunt him down if they felt like it. Surely the logical move would be to reveal the location of Atlantis in the hope that Wraith would attack it with the result that a lot of individuals on both sides would be killed? The Atlantis expedition were hoping that this kind of thing would happen when they arranged for the Asuran vs Wraith conflict so why wouldn't a Wraith vs Atlantis idea occur to Michael?


After all, we're responsible to their numbers diminishing vastly first by blowing up Hives ourselves and then by re-activating the Kill All Asurans code.

Rodney didn't change the base code to make Asurans attack Wraith until after Atlantis had moved to its new planet.

What we're really dealing with is typical 'plot vagueness'. We don't know how Michael got out of the camp before it was fired on, whether he was the sole survivor, how long he was on the rescue hive or how he managed to escape. We're left wondering if he kept Atlantis a secret or if the Wraith were too busy with their civil war to attack the city. We don't even know where he got his lab equipment from.

MICHAEL: .. and don’t think that this is the only planet from which I’m conducting this experiment.

That's a lot of lab tables and surgical implements which had to come from somewhere - after all, it's unlikely he'd managed to take them from the rescue hive when he made his escape. Did he scavenge them from Hoff because Sheppard was right in predicting that the Wraith would kill the inhabitants?

wise one
November 26th, 2007, 08:54 AM
it is possible that ronan would of told his long lost friends to about atlantis since he wanted them to stay with him there but carter said no

and we know they know about atlantis in that scene where ronan friend says he belongs to them.

he reported back to the wraith who was in charge of the replicator virus and then that wraith escaped and likely told his queen or something and thats when todd must of worked out who they were since mckay is highly popular with the wraith and john sheppard was captured by them i would think the wraith would know there prisoners like the SGA.

FallenAngelII
November 26th, 2007, 10:30 AM
FAII, why would the Wraith attack a city that's been keeping a low profile. Not to mention with a city shield and cloak? What would be the point.
The city is defenseless while using the cloak since the shield can't run simoultaneously. There is no reason why the Wraith would fear the Atlantis shield since they know we have a very limited amount of power to power it.


If one were to think logically, the Wraith would probably have come to the conclusion that the more leakage there is of their existence, the more likely they are to devise a means of protecting the city. The city's greatest defense has not been it's shield, though it plays a significant part in it, it's been the ocean it sits on. It's preserved the city for 10,000 years, what's to assume anything's different?
We do not have what the Ancients had: Unlimited ZPMs and drones. And we're still hiding out existence, indicating that we still fear a Wraith attack.


Michael could have adapted the events of 'Allies' and said that it all took place at the Alpha Site or some other Atlantis personnel base.
For the love of puppies, please read my posts before replying to them. I am not arguing against the possibility of Michael telling other Wraith about how he was abducted by the survivors of the former City of Atlantis and then experimented on on an Alpha Site.

I am arguing against the possibility that Michael told other Wraith about how the city of Atlantis is still around and none of them elected to attack it.

If you reply to this post with another post yapping on about the possibility of Michael telling the ther Wraith about an Alpha Site, so help me God, I will spontaneously neg-rep you for failing to read my posts before replying with the exact same things twice.

ciannwn
November 26th, 2007, 12:54 PM
If you reply to this post with another post yapping on about the possibility of Michael telling the ther Wraith about an Alpha Site, so help me God, I will spontaneously neg-rep you for failing to read my posts before replying with the exact same things twice.

The reason why I mentioned it again is as follows. You said -


So as far as anyone knows for sure, Atlantis blew up into smithereens with the Atlantis expedition evacuating through the gate and now operating out of an Alpha Site.

I was agreeing with you about Wraith believing Atlantis personnel were now operating from an Alpha Site. I admit I did repeat myself but it was a lead in to further speculation. Yes, Michael could have mentioned the main events of 'Allies' without giving Atlantis away but why should he have wanted to keep the secret? He tried to save his own skin by going over to the Atlantis expedition's side in 'No Man's Land' - seeing as he turned against fellow Wraith at this point it makes no sense for him to feel any kind of loyalty towards the Atlantis expedition after they RV'd him again and tried to kill him twice. Why would he want to protect people he was prepared to feed to Iratus bugs in 'Vengeance'?

I finished up by saying that it's all to do with typical 'plot vagueness'. The writers just threw in the barest explanations they could get away with to account for Michael turning up in 'Vengeance'. He was picked up by Wraith, they turned against him, he managed to escape, he somehow managed to get hold of lab equipment and start producing his super army on several different planets. Meanwhile the Wraith didn't attack Atlantis just because they didn't and Todd knows that the Atlantis people were betrayed the last time they worked with Wraith for some unexplained reason.

Maybe we'll learn the full details in a future story but I'm not holding my breath. After all, it means coming up with a convincing reason as to why Wraith didn't attack Atlantis if Michael told them about it or why Michael didn't tell Wraith about it after 'Misbegotten'.

freelance1
November 26th, 2007, 04:59 PM
Todd didnt know about atlantis and where it is ... subspace beacon gave up his position and two hive ships destroy each other ... and what about michael he didnt gave up position because nobody knows where new atlantis is ... remember the spy from "missing" he wanted the address :rolleyes: so he knew about atlantis but didnt know where is it ...

rarocks24
November 26th, 2007, 05:19 PM
The city is defenseless while using the cloak since the shield can't run simoultaneously. There is no reason why the Wraith would fear the Atlantis shield since they know we have a very limited amount of power to power it.

It's possible the Wraith knew about the geothermal platform. If they did, then they'd have to have assumed the city has ample power. And besides, all the Wraith know is that at some point during the siege, the city had enough power to power the shield.


We do not have what the Ancients had: Unlimited ZPMs and drones. And we're still hiding out existence, indicating that we still fear a Wraith attack.

Not saying that isn't true. But even if you had resubmerged the city, you wouldn't exactly be putting that measure of defense to the test would you?


For the love of puppies, please read my posts before replying to them. I am not arguing against the possibility of Michael telling other Wraith about how he was abducted by the survivors of the former City of Atlantis and then experimented on on an Alpha Site.

Why not mention Atlantis in the first place? We've betrayed him twice. There's no reason for him to keep the existence of Atlantis secret. Michael and the other Wraith survivors are probably keeping Atlantis a secret because of the shame they brought to the Wraith. They did after all find the location of Atlantis and not tell them. And then got captured and experimented on and their ship stolen. To know that they were in on the experiment, even if to double cross later down the road, would be seen as...well, how would you see it?


I am arguing against the possibility that Michael told other Wraith about how the city of Atlantis is still around and none of them elected to attack it.

Fair enough. However, let me pose this to you...Michael's hive was in orbit around Lantia for a substantial time. Why? It just so happens it breaks orbit to go attack a nearby hive and just so happens that the Daedy comes in and assist said hive...that doesn't strike you as a bit odd? Two cruisers pick up a beacon that just magically went off and decided to investigate. Not to mention all the rumors and the worlds such as the Genii who know of Atlantis's survival. Once one world knows, it's going to leak out.


If you reply to this post with another post yapping on about the possibility of Michael telling the ther Wraith about an Alpha Site, so help me God, I will spontaneously neg-rep you for failing to read my posts before replying with the exact same things twice.

Because you're right and they're wrong? Because you know more than anybody else here? You have a window into Joe's and the other writers/producers head? Let them say why they believe Michael would have mentioned an alpha site and/or Atlantis. And let them argue, that's what the forum is for.

s09119
November 26th, 2007, 05:24 PM
Todd never said he knew about Atlantis, he just wanted to talk with Sheppard. I'm pretty sure the Wraith know by now that the Atlanteans are still alive (on another world), though they may still think the city itself is gone. So that point's covered now.

As for the alliance, I'm sure word has spread by now about the Wraith who got their butts kicked by the humans when they tried to double-cross the Atlanteans. I mean, someone probably caught wind of what was going on or heard from a Wraith who knew someone aboard the traitorous hives. *shrug*

And as for the cloak, the Wraith should know by now about that, seeing as;
1. They were fooled into thinking the city was destroyed.
2. It was then made apparent that Atlantis was still around.
Surely they'd have figured out the most likely reasons by now (a cloak).

Quoted to reiterate my point since I don't feel like typing up a new post ;)

ciannwn
November 27th, 2007, 03:36 AM
Todd didnt know about atlantis and where it is ... subspace beacon gave up his position and two hive ships destroy each other ... and what about michael he didnt gave up position because nobody knows where new atlantis is ... remember the spy from "missing" he wanted the address :rolleyes: so he knew about atlantis but didnt know where is it ...

Atlantis was on Lantea when Michael was picked up from the 'Misbegotten' planet. It was still there when Sheppard and co met up with him again in 'Vengeance' because it didn't leave for it's new location until the end of 'First Strike' (the last story of Season 3). There would have been plenty of time for the Wraith to attack the city if they learned it still existed and thought such a course of action would be a good idea.


Why not mention Atlantis in the first place? We've betrayed him twice. There's no reason for him to keep the existence of Atlantis secret. Michael and the other Wraith survivors are probably keeping Atlantis a secret because of the shame they brought to the Wraith. They did after all find the location of Atlantis and not tell them. And then got captured and experimented on and their ship stolen. To know that they were in on the experiment, even if to double cross later down the road, would be seen as...well, how would you see it?

There are several possibilities concerning what Michael could have said.

"We were trying to find the location of Earth. A new, rich, food supply would have solved our problems and brought an end to our civil war."

"We discovered that Atlantis was still there but they did this to us before we could tell anyone."

"We found their new base but they did this to us before they could tell anyone."

The second and third possibilities don't explain how Todd knew the Atlantis expedition had been betrayed the last time they worked with Wraith. We'd have to assume he (a) made a lucky guess and managed to hide any surprise on hearing that the expedition had tried to work with Wraith before or (b) he was told about the 'Allies' events after he'd been taken to Atlantis and we just didn't get to see it on TV.

The only way round it at the moment is to accept that Todd made a lucky guess or was told about it when he got to Atlantis. Michael, meanwhile, didn't pass on valuable information in an attempt to gain some standing in the hive which picked him up. The other Wraith rejected him but he managed to escape before they could subject him to a mind probe or they didn't think he was trying to hide anything so didn't bother with a mind probe.

Maybe the real questions we should be asking are -

Have TPTB worked out how Michael escaped the rescue hive and why he kept the secret in readiness for a big revelation later on in Season 4?

Or

Did they neglect to let us have the details because they couldn't figure it out themselves and were hoping viewers wouldn't ask awkward questions?

rarocks24
November 27th, 2007, 04:17 AM
Need to quote people better buddy. ;) I don't believe Freelance1 said that.

And as I said, it's all speculation until we have an actual answer from TPTB. Alas', I don't believe the questions will be answered anytime soon, so there's always the realm of fanfiction till Kindred.

If I were to guess, he got far enough away from the colony and did what Wraith do, hibernate. Once the threat had passed, he stopped hibernating. But that's just a guess.

ciannwn
November 27th, 2007, 04:43 AM
Need to quote people better buddy. ;) I don't believe Freelance1 said that.

Ooops. I've now edited my previous post. Maybe I shouldn't try to reply to more than one person in the same post. :(


And as I said, it's all speculation until we have an actual answer from TPTB. Alas', I don't believe the questions will be answered anytime soon, so there's always the realm of fanfiction till Kindred.

SGA is a fanfiction writers' dream. There are so many stories they can come up with in attempts to explain all the things that the scriptwriters don't. :D


If I were to guess, he got far enough away from the colony and did what Wraith do, hibernate. Once the threat had passed, he stopped hibernating. But that's just a guess.

There's no doubt that Michael was rescued by a hive ship because he says this in 'Vengeance'.

"The hive that finally rescued me -- they could tell something was different. They sensed the human in me. To them, I was unclean. I barely escaped that hive with my life."

Fanfiction writers can have fun devising ways in which Michael managed to escape the rescue hive after he'd been rejected etc. etc. etc. :)

FallenAngelII
November 27th, 2007, 10:31 AM
It's possible the Wraith knew about the geothermal platform. If they did, then they'd have to have assumed the city has ample power. And besides, all the Wraith know is that at some point during the siege, the city had enough power to power the shield.
The Wraith knew about the geothermal platform and fears it, assuming it can provide Atlantis with ample power, you say? And despite all of this, they still mounted an attack on Atlantis in "The Siege" but have since grown to fear it so much they're too scared to attack again?

All the Wraith know for sure is that during the siege, we didn't have th power to stay alive for too long or the power to beat them, which is why we either:
A) Blew up to city to prevent them from getting to it.
B) Pretended to blow up the city to trick them.

We have the power to do bupkis.


Not saying that isn't true. But even if you had resubmerged the city, you wouldn't exactly be putting that measure of defense to the test would you?
I do not understand what you're saying here.


Why not mention Atlantis in the first place? We've betrayed him twice. There's no reason for him to keep the existence of Atlantis secret. Michael and the other Wraith survivors are probably keeping Atlantis a secret because of the shame they brought to the Wraith. They did after all find the location of Atlantis and not tell them. And then got captured and experimented on and their ship stolen. To know that they were in on the experiment, even if to double cross later down the road, would be seen as...well, how would you see it?
Why does John fall for Larrin trick in "Travelers"? Why did they forget about Jonas' existence ever since "Fallout"? Why did they not even think of asking Chaya for help when Rodney was on the verge of dying from a botched Ascension? Why are the Wraith occasionally so stupid even a ten yearold could kick their asses?

Shoddy writing.

And I'm sorry, are you arguing that Michael did tell others about Atlantis' continued survival or that he didn't? Because I was under the impression that you're arguing that he did, yet you just argued that he didn't.


Fair enough. However, let me pose this to you...Michael's hive was in orbit around Lantia for a substantial time. Why? It just so happens it breaks orbit to go attack a nearby hive and just so happens that the Daedy comes in and assist said hive...that doesn't strike you as a bit odd? Two cruisers pick up a beacon that just magically went off and decided to investigate. Not to mention all the rumors and the worlds such as the Genii who know of Atlantis's survival. Once one world knows, it's going to leak out.
Did you miss the part of "Allies" where it was revealed that the 2nd Hive was most probably in cahoots with the 1st Hive all along? It was those two Hives that together ventured off to fly on a little trip to the Milky Way galaxy. And not that it matters anyway because the two hives ended up being destroyed (they probably didn't share any information with the rest of the Pegasus Galaxy because they wanted to keep the Milky Way all to themselves).

How long ships orbit what has absolutely no relevance unless some other ships were in the vicinity. As far as we know, the Wraith do now have galaxy-wide monitoring systems of what ships are where. They can't be on one end of the galaxy and tell that a Hive is orbiting X planet in Y part of the galaxy. In "The Seer", a fellow Hive just happened to be close enough to pick up the signal of the "friendly" Hive.

Rumors schmumors. They probably went back to check once or twice, but the city was cloaked every time, making it impossible for them to find it. What were they to do, fly close to the surface and search every single nook at cranny of Lantea in the hopes of flying into an invisible city?


Because you're right and they're wrong? Because you know more than anybody else here? You have a window into Joe's and the other writers/producers head? Let them say why they believe Michael would have mentioned an alpha site and/or Atlantis. And let them argue, that's what the forum is for.
And I don't have the right to say what I believe? And logic kinda suggest certain things.

ciannwn
November 27th, 2007, 11:24 AM
Why does John fall for Larrin trick in "Travelers"? Why did they forget about Jonas' existence ever since "Fallout"? Why did they not even think of asking Chaya for help when Rodney was on the verge of dying from a botched Ascension? Why are the Wraith occasionally so stupid even a ten yearold could kick their asses?

Shoddy writing.

Why were Sheppard and co so confident that Lucius wasn't going to be a security risk? Luckily for them he only talks about Atlantis to Kolya, not a Wraith worshipper.

LUCIUS: Wait, wait. You can’t kill me. Look, I’m the perfect bait. If Sheppard finds out that I’m in trouble, he’s gonna come rescue me. We’re really close.

KOLYA: You and Sheppard?

LUCIUS: Yeah.

KOLYA: I don’t think so.

LUCIUS: Then Weir, or Rodney, or Carson. We’re like the best of friends.

KOLYA: And how is it you know them so well?

LUCIUS: I spent some time in Atlantis. It’s the nicest place I’ve ever been, best time I ever had. It’s like, I remember like I was there this morning.

KOLYA: Tell me more.

Sorry, but I just had to add that one in as another possible example of shoddy writing. :)


And logic kinda suggest certain things.

Unfortunately, logic could be overturned at any time by a bit more shoddy writing. :D

FallenAngelII
November 27th, 2007, 12:44 PM
Why were Sheppard and co so confident that Lucius wasn't going to be a security risk? Luckily for them he only talks about Atlantis to Kolya, not a Wraith worshipper.
You're using that as proof of that "Atlantis can now take on tens of Hives attacking all at once!"? Even shoddier writing.

If Atlantis were the real world, there is no way Atlantis would ever let Lucius go. Not only did he know about Atlantis, he'd read classified mission reports. Not only that, he had done a few pretty bad things to the expedition.

No one in their right mind would let him go. But they did, without punishing him at all except for curing his victims.

More shoddy writing is not proof of anything.

ciannwn
November 27th, 2007, 02:33 PM
You're using that as proof of that "Atlantis can now take on tens of Hives attacking all at once!"? Even shoddier writing.

You gave some examples of shoddy writing. I just added that as a further example of how SGA sometimes falls prey to shoddy writing.


If Atlantis were the real world, there is no way Atlantis would ever let Lucius go. Not only did he know about Atlantis, he'd read classified mission reports. Not only that, he had done a few pretty bad things to the expedition.

No one in their right mind would let him go. But they did, without punishing him at all except for curing his victims.

I agree with you 100% here. Lucius was meant to be a comic buffoon (whatever a lot of viewers thought about the results) so, according to 'scriptwriter logic', this justifies Sheppard and co having a fit of not being in their right minds. Well, that's what it comes across as to me. I just regard it as shoddy writing.


More shoddy writing is not proof of anything.

What I meant is that people in these forums can come up with all kinds of logical reasons as to why this happened or why that didn't happen. Does this guarantee that a scriptwriter won't come up with another explanation which results in a lot of us saying things like "That was lame" or "That was yet another example of shoddy writing"?

Anyway, back to the question asked in this topic. How did Todd know that the Atlantis expedition had been betrayed the last time they worked with Wraith? All we can really say here is that it was never explained in 'The Seer'. Perhaps it relates to something mentioned in a previous story but none of us posting in this topic have made the connection. On the other hand, maybe we'll get an explanation in a future story and people will end up arguing over whether it's lame or convincing. Another possibility is that it could be akin to what you said in an earlier post -


So it all boils down to a giant plothole.

rarocks24
November 29th, 2007, 05:21 AM
The Wraith knew about the geothermal platform and fears it, assuming it can provide Atlantis with ample power, you say? And despite all of this, they still mounted an attack on Atlantis in "The Siege" but have since grown to fear it so much they're too scared to attack again?

Good point. Although they (the Lantians) didn't know about it till Submersion.


All the Wraith know for sure is that during the siege, we didn't have th power to stay alive for too long or the power to beat them, which is why we either:
A) Blew up to city to prevent them from getting to it.
B) Pretended to blow up the city to trick them.

They knew the siege wasn't going to break. They devised a way to break the siege. Even if we did have enough power to hold the shield for years, we would have done the same thing eventually. Either way, the city was going to be made to look destroyed.


We have the power to do bupkis.

Where have I said otherwise?


I do not understand what you're saying here.

Disregard that, I was a little...well...we won't go into that.


Why does John fall for Larrin trick in "Travelers"? Why did they forget about Jonas' existence ever since "Fallout"? Why did they not even think of asking Chaya for help when Rodney was on the verge of dying from a botched Ascension? Why are the Wraith occasionally so stupid even a ten yearold could kick their asses?

Shoddy writing.

Shoddy writing has been the only thing that's protected Atlantis the past three seasons. As for Larrin, John was fouled by a character flaw, sorry if that hasn't dawned on you or conflicts with your obsession with Mcshep. I'm also pretty sure Chaya told us never to return there. As for the Wraith being so stupid on occasion, when haven't we been stupid? When has Earth not been stupid? The Wraith are not infallible.


And I'm sorry, are you arguing that Michael did tell others about Atlantis' continued survival or that he didn't? Because I was under the impression that you're arguing that he did, yet you just argued that he didn't.

What can I say, I like arguing both ways. I'm arguing that the Wraith or at least suspect Atlantis survived the siege, but that Michael and the other survivors (if there were any) kept it secret. I just like playing Devil's Advocate on occasion. :P


Did you miss the part of "Allies" where it was revealed that the 2nd Hive was most probably in cahoots with the 1st Hive all along? It was those two Hives that together ventured off to fly on a little trip to the Milky Way galaxy. And not that it matters anyway because the two hives ended up being destroyed (they probably didn't share any information with the rest of the Pegasus Galaxy because they wanted to keep the Milky Way all to themselves).

I wasn't aware the hive that attacked "our" hive was the same that left with the other hive towards Earth and got KO'd by the Orion.


How long ships orbit what has absolutely no relevance unless some other ships were in the vicinity. As far as we know, the Wraith do now have galaxy-wide monitoring systems of what ships are where. They can't be on one end of the galaxy and tell that a Hive is orbiting X planet in Y part of the galaxy. In "The Seer", a fellow Hive just happened to be close enough to pick up the signal of the "friendly" Hive.

Signal? There were no transmissions. They picked that hive up on sensors and intercepted. Besides, wasn't it stated in the episode where they come up with the estimate that there are at least 20 hives in Atlantis's quadrant? Pegasus isn't that big.


Rumors schmumors. They probably went back to check once or twice, but the city was cloaked every time, making it impossible for them to find it. What were they to do, fly close to the surface and search every single nook at cranny of Lantea in the hopes of flying into an invisible city?

Persistent rumors, coupled with an accident that nearly gave us away in Critical Mass suggests the city is there. The Wraith won't act simply on rumors, they don't have the unity for that. But to deny that the Wraith don't at least suspect the city survived.... besides, Todd didn't seem too surprised. Besides, isn't Atlantis terminally anchored to that location? It doesn't appear to have moved all that much in the past 3 years if the geothermal platform is still close to the city.


And I don't have the right to say what I believe? And logic kinda suggest certain things.

Where the frak did I say that? What I was getting at was that you were being an ass (and not the good kind) and threatened other debaters who have their own ideas.

ciannwn
November 29th, 2007, 10:36 AM
But to deny that the Wraith don't at least suspect the city survived.... besides, Todd didn't seem too surprised.

If Todd was surprised we certainly didn't get any indication of it. We don't see his reaction when he finds himself in the city and he never says anything like "I am amazed to see that Atlantis still exists. We Wraith were convinced it had been destroyed."

Here's a very far fetched possibility involving Lucius.

LUCIUS: .. I perused some of the mission reports about the Ancient device that you guys discovered ...

McKAY: You did an awful lot of perusing while you were on the base.

LUCIUS: I peruse. It’s a gift.

Maybe he also perused information concerning the 'Allies' events along with all the mission reports he adapted for his stories.

Although Lucius tells Kolya about Atlantis I'm going to make a big assumption. The Wraith didn't attack the city while it was still on Lantea so Lucius didn't make a habit of talking about it during this time - this is why the news of its continued existence didn't reach them via one or more Wraith worshippers.

Lucius isn't the kind of person who refuses to talk if his life is in danger, though. Maybe something scared him into revealing information after Atlantis left for its new location. This is how Todd learned about the betrayal and why he wasn't surprised to find himself in the city. Lucius didn't know about the new planet, though, so the Wraith haven't the faintest idea where Atlantis is now. (Apart from Todd, that is.)

Yes, I know it's a really, really lame idea. :D


I'm also pretty sure Chaya told us never to return there.

I've just looked at a transcript for 'Sanctuary'. At the very end Cheya says that she wouldn't be allowed to let the Atlantis expedition go to her planet for protection. Then we get -

CHAYA: I can never leave.

Luckily for her the Others didn't notice her taking a brief holiday on Atlantis. Well, ascended beings don't know everything. :)

Sheppard then says - "Well, I could come and visit - (he smiles) if you don't mind flirting with somebody from another species."

Cheya doesn't tell him that he can't visit her for flirting purposes, though, and goes on to initiate 'sharing' with him.

If 'The Tao Of Rodney' had required assistance from Cheya the scriptwriter would have come up with a typical 'thin line' scenario. (An ascended Ancient can give as much help as a particular plot requires. :) ) As there was another solution to Rodney's dilemma she wasn't mentioned at all. It would have been nice if someone had said "Cheya's an ascended Ancient. Surely she'd know something useful," only for Sheppard to reply "That would be interfering so the Others would stop her."

FallenAngelII
December 3rd, 2007, 04:40 AM
They knew the siege wasn't going to break. They devised a way to break the siege. Even if we did have enough power to hold the shield for years, we would have done the same thing eventually. Either way, the city was going to be made to look destroyed.
Not relevant and not my point at all.


Where have I said otherwise?
Where you kinda argued the geothermal platform could help us do squat. Or that the Wraith feared our shield and weapons. That or someone else said it.


Shoddy writing has been the only thing that's protected Atlantis the past three seasons. As for Larrin, John was fouled by a character flaw, sorry if that hasn't dawned on you or conflicts with your obsession with Mcshep. I'm also pretty sure Chaya told us never to return there. As for the Wraith being so stupid on occasion, when haven't we been stupid? When has Earth not been stupid? The Wraith are not infallible.
That's my point. The reason why Todd "knew", yet none of the other Wraith seem to know is shoddy writing.


I wasn't aware the hive that attacked "our" hive was the same that left with the other hive towards Earth and got KO'd by the Orion.
My assumption. Maybe it's false.


Signal? There were no transmissions. They picked that hive up on sensors and intercepted. Besides, wasn't it stated in the episode where they come up with the estimate that there are at least 20 hives in Atlantis's quadrant? Pegasus isn't that big.
Signal as in the signal they picked up on the sensors. When was it ever stated that the Wraith have long range sensors as strong as those of Atlantis'?


Persistent rumors, coupled with an accident that nearly gave us away in Critical Mass suggests the city is there. The Wraith won't act simply on rumors, they don't have the unity for that. But to deny that the Wraith don't at least suspect the city survived.... besides, Todd didn't seem too surprised. Besides, isn't Atlantis terminally anchored to that location? It doesn't appear to have moved all that much in the past 3 years if the geothermal platform is still close to the city.
I never claimed they didn't suspect anything. But if they really wanted to, they could just send a few cruisers to the spot and fire at air (if we're cloaked) and destroy us all.


Where the frak did I say that? What I was getting at was that you were being an ass (and not the good kind) and threatened other debaters who have their own ideas.
"Because you're right and they're wrong? Because you know more than anybody else here? You have a window into Joe's and the other writers/producers head?"

You act as if my debunking others' theories is somehow the pinnacle of evil when it's just my stating my own theories.