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View Full Version : Strategic mistakes...all wrong...horribly, horribly wrong...



o-0
November 20th, 2007, 12:47 PM
I thought that as a Colonel in the airforce, Carter would know exactly how to respond to these simple problems. Even I was able to figure out how to avoid all the mess in the episode while watching it.
•First mistake: Sending the team to a possible ambush when they could have searched with the jumpers or life sign device and expose the wraiths' locations, capturing them before they were able to momentarily surround the team. The team could've been shot on the spot and valuable lives could've been lost when it could've been avoided.
•Second mistake: Bringing the wraith to Atlantis. Self explanatory. They really need to establish an alpha site so that they don't endanger the city anymore.
•Third mistake: Not cloaking when the first hive ship arrived. The hive ships could've known which planet Atlantis was on but if Atlantis cloaked, there would be no way for the ship to find the exact location of the city. This would work only if the transmission device was removed and disabled from the wraith or if he was sent to another planet. This could have prevented the second hive ship from locating Atlantis as well. If Atlantis cloaked before the second ship arrived but after the first one arrived, the first ship could've told the second ship where to fire its weapons (if they were working together).

I'm just so disappointed with Carter's poor military leadership. She got extremely lucky when the second ship attacked the first ship and wasn't working together with the first ship in order to attack and destroy Atlantis.

Mitchell82
November 20th, 2007, 01:29 PM
I thought that as a Colonel in the airforce, Carter would know exactly how to respond to these simple problems. Even I was able to figure out how to avoid all the mess in the episode while watching it.
•First mistake: Sending the team to a possible ambush when they could have searched with the jumpers or life sign device and expose the wraiths' locations, capturing them before they were able to momentarily surround the team. The team could've been shot on the spot and valuable lives could've been lost when it could've been avoided.
Wrong. As a retired officer I can tell you that she would not have done that. Knowing it's an ambush they came prepared but you don't want to give the Wraith our technology or risk too many lives. Hence sending the top team was the right call.

•Second mistake: Bringing the wraith to Atlantis. Self explanatory. They really need to establish an alpha site so that they don't endanger the city anymore.
They didn't have much choice in the matter we needed his intel.

•Third mistake: Not cloaking when the first hive ship arrived. The hive ships could've known which planet Atlantis was on but if Atlantis cloaked, there would be no way for the ship to find the exact location of the city. This would work only if the transmission device was removed and disabled from the wraith or if he was sent to another planet. This could have prevented the second hive ship from locating Atlantis as well. If Atlantis cloaked before the second ship arrived but after the first one arrived, the first ship could've told the second ship where to fire its weapons (if they were working together).
In which case the Wraith would have made an agressive move the minute they arrived and we needed their trust.


I'm just so disappointed with Carter's poor military leadership. She got extremely lucky when the second ship attacked the first ship and wasn't working together with the first ship in order to attack and destroy Atlantis.

Her leadership has been great and she made the right call.

Jeffer
November 20th, 2007, 01:34 PM
on the first note Rodney didn't see them get fired upon by the Wraith. secondly the Wraith don't kill people they like to feed on them. (having Pj's there prevented that from happening). I agree with your second part they shouldn't have taken him to Atlantis.

The Wraith at this point would do them no good to destroy Atlantis weather they like it or not there is no way for them to shut down the attack code. So they need us alive.

I think she did well to stop John from firing drones that would have gave away the position of the city and would have let the second hive ship send out and APB to every Wraith hive ship.

kirmit
November 20th, 2007, 01:44 PM
on the first note Rodney didn't see them get fired upon by the Wraith. secondly the Wraith don't kill people they like to feed on them. (having Pj's there prevented that from happening). I agree with your second part they shouldn't have taken him to Atlantis.

The SGA team have been a pain in the wraith's side every since they stepped foot in pegasus, I'm sure they wouldn't think twice about killing them out of spite and getting close enough to feed might be a factor.

BTW Like your sig :).

wise one
November 20th, 2007, 01:56 PM
an aplha site would of been more approiate and have atlantis gate mckays equipmet there where the wraith and him would work on the virus, that way only the wraith hive would noe about that planet not atlantis but then again mckay is popular with the wraith as mentioned by johns wraith buddy so they would know he is from atlantis

o-0
November 20th, 2007, 02:01 PM
Wrong. As a retired officer I can tell you that she would not have done that. Knowing it's an ambush they came prepared but you don't want to give the Wraith our technology or risk too many lives. Hence sending the top team was the right call.
Are you serious?? You don't use your own people as bait or leave them in the open no matter how much support you have for them!


They didn't have much choice in the matter we needed his intel.
They could've easily obtained his intel on another planet (if they had an alpha site or just a secure place).


In which case the Wraith would have made an agressive move the minute they arrived and we needed their trust.
How can they make an aggressive move if they don't know where Atlantis is? They only know the planet that Atlantis is on but that's thousands of square miles to shoot at.

AutumnDream
November 20th, 2007, 02:09 PM
o-O is correct. Guys, I know you really love this show, but it's really not necessary to defend gaping holes in logic when they (frequently) come up.

Jumper_One
November 20th, 2007, 04:15 PM
o-O is correct. Guys, I know you really love this show, but it's really not necessary to defend gaping holes in logic when they (frequently) come up.

sry I don't think so, I agree with Mitchell82

btw I too believe they should establish an Alpha site

P-90_177
November 20th, 2007, 04:21 PM
as do i.

carter may not be as good as hammond or jack but she's still made all the right calls.

Avenger
November 20th, 2007, 05:46 PM
They took the proper precautions by bringing the cloaked jumpers in

It may be unorthodox, but they're in a situation where the need to be unorthodox at times.

Agent_Dark
November 20th, 2007, 05:51 PM
actually o-0, the correct terminology in your case would be "tactical" not "strategic". They mean different things. But you're wrong anyway

SG13-NightOps
November 20th, 2007, 06:56 PM
On point one: they had the tactical advantage of knowing he wasnt alone. They were not walking into an ambush, they were setting one.

Point two: gotta agree there. Not smart. They just moved it and now they bring another wraith there - I thought that was dumb from the beginning. His tracking device proved me right.

Point three: Who is to say they had time. That would require removing the device, then cloaking. By then the ship could have pinpointed there exact location on the planet and they would have been left valunerable - cloak = no shield. Sometimes, you just have to trust people.

PG15
November 20th, 2007, 09:39 PM
Obviously the first hive knows where Atlantis is, and we're not even sure THEY won't fire on us once we cloak, and so we didn't.

o-0
November 20th, 2007, 10:36 PM
I don't think u can pinpoint the exact location on a planet from a subspace signal when you're as far away as the ship was, so there wouldve been plenty of time to remove the device and cloak.

P-90_177
November 20th, 2007, 10:48 PM
hardly. they're pretty advanced sensors. plus all you need is a rough idea of where the city is and keep fireing until you hit the city.

AutumnDream
November 20th, 2007, 10:49 PM
The whole point of the alpha site would be to circumvent tricky scenarios like these.

Agent_Dark
November 20th, 2007, 10:52 PM
the hive ship already knew what planet atlantis was on. Todd had said that if there were any funnies from teh Atlantis team, his hive would broadcast it's position to the entire wraith fleet. What do you think would happen when the Wraith hive gets to teh planet, doesn't get a response from Todd and finds no visible trace of Atlantis (ie its cloaked)?

prion
November 21st, 2007, 04:35 AM
I
I'm just so disappointed with Carter's poor military leadership. She got extremely lucky when the second ship attacked the first ship and wasn't working together with the first ship in order to attack and destroy Atlantis.

I do think it was sheer luck the wraith ships decided to duke it out. Carter gave no reasoning (unless I simply forgot) why she said 'wait', except for the drama of the scene.

rarocks24
November 21st, 2007, 05:46 AM
I do think it was sheer luck the wraith ships decided to duke it out. Carter gave no reasoning (unless I simply forgot) why she said 'wait', except for the drama of the scene.

It's not luck when everything was predetermined from the start. Teyla saw a vision in which a hive ship is destroyed, but Carter only saw Atlantis destroyed by the Asurans. Atlantis was not destroyed by the Asurans (who more than likely would have picked up the Wraith's transmissions concerning the whereabouts of their location and had superior hyperdrives if they had betrayed the Wraith). Carter made the choice of faith to believe that The Seer saw the right thing, which he did. Two hives destroyed each other.

SaberBlade
November 21st, 2007, 05:46 AM
I have to completely agree with an Alpha Site.

There was no need to bring the Wraith to Atlantis when they could have set up a temporary lab on an offworld planet with some sort of prison set up to keep the Wraith contained. We've seen them do it before with Replicarter. Even if they didn't expect a hidden transmitter, Wraith can communicate over long distances so there was always a chance he could have gotten off some sort of signal.

However, the Wraith could transmit a signal. Cloaking the city wouldn't have helped because they could lock onto that signal and just fire blind. They would have hit something.

Also, they knew by the vision that they get ambushed but no weapons fire was seen. Jumpers would have been enough to scare off the wraith because the drones have been effective against humanoid targets.

I don't believe that was it all wrong. Carter went throught the same thing before and time after time we saw that your perspective matters. Jonas believed that Carter was injured during an attack, that turned out to be wrong. Jonas saw a Jaffa use SG1's IDC to gain entry to the SGC and plant a bomb after an ambush, that turned out to be wrong despite the fact the SGC SF's were prepared for war (in a very impressive scene) and in the end that turned out to be wrong.

If things like that hadn't happened to her before, I would have expect anyone to have reacted like Woosley and open fire with everything they've got. But in the end, her SG1 experiences taught her not to accept things at face value.

If she had freaked out like Woolsey despite knowing what happened to Jonas, I think it would have been worse for her.

Xaeden
November 21st, 2007, 06:51 AM
•First mistake: Sending the team to a possible ambush when they could have searched with the jumpers or life sign device and expose the wraiths' locations, capturing them before they were able to momentarily surround the team. The team could've been shot on the spot and valuable lives could've been lost when it could've been avoided.

Oh please, loss of life is hardly an issue with the Wraith. Worst case scenario they shoot you with stunners and you use your backup to fight them off before they can claim the bodies (even if they run off with the bodies, they're not going to beat the jumpers to the Stargate and they're not going to have time to stop and feed on them). It would be one thing if Mckay saw them with those weapons they use against runners, but the vision was clear that they didn't have anything that didn't stun.


•Second mistake: Bringing the wraith to Atlantis. Self explanatory. They really need to establish an alpha site so that they don't endanger the city anymore.

They do indeed need a solid alpha site and I've been hoping that with the gate bridge they will able to bring over enough materials to build a complex similar to what we saw in the gamma site but obviously less so since that was meant to be a research station and not a place that you would risk bringing captured enemies to that could possibily expose your location. Something with primitive structures as they currently have is just not going to cut it for holding prisoners (as seen by Michael's escape) and unfortunately there was no way the Daedalus could bring enough supplies to begin construction on a real facility. However, they've only had the gate bridge fully working for about three months now so it's excusable that they didn't have anywhere else to bring him short of asking to borrow a Genii complex.


•Third mistake: Not cloaking when the first hive ship arrived. The hive ships could've known which planet Atlantis was on but if Atlantis cloaked, there would be no way for the ship to find the exact location of the city. This would work only if the transmission device was removed and disabled from the wraith or if he was sent to another planet. This could have prevented the second hive ship from locating Atlantis as well. If Atlantis cloaked before the second ship arrived but after the first one arrived, the first ship could've told the second ship where to fire its weapons (if they were working together).

So apparently you know that the Wraith transmitter doesn't automatically give the Wraith the exact location of where it's signal is being sent from on a planet (despite being light years away) where as the characters do not? How have you managed that? You're critizing them for an opinion which has not a shred of evidence to back it up.

But okay let's say that you're right. What good would that do? The Wraith still know you're on that planet and if you're not going to work with them they probably have orders to broadcast your location. Eventually they are going to find you and you're going to be caught with your shields down. Best case scenario you detect the other ships coming your way and switch to shields and fire on the first Hive where it may or may not get some good shots off at you before your shields are fully up. Worst case scenario, you stick with this cloak idea until a fleet is in orbit and then you have no way of hoping to get the shield back up before Atlantis takes heavy damage. If you were in charge, Atlantis would no longer exist right now.

Which is why Carter made the right move. She had to play along with that Hive in order to prevent the rest of the Wraith from getting the location of Atlantis as those Wraith were not going to randomly fire on the planet forever, looking for a cloaked Atlantis. They were going to get help and once the city could no longer sustain its shields they were going to send troops down, extract Mckay, and have him work for them in one of their labs.

**Btw it's actually much easier to find the city than you think - They have thousands of darts which can fly at surface level over the oceans in formation. At their speeds, one will crash into the cloaked city in no time, especially since even in your scenario they would probably know the general area the signal came from and wouldn't have to search the whole planet.

o-0
November 21st, 2007, 12:30 PM
You have a point but it all relies on the assumption that the wraith will work together and not kill each other in an epic battle.
Also, I believe in the episode when a Goa'uld spy was attempting to destroy Atlantis, a subspace transmitter went off and was shut down a little too late, attracting the attention of wraith ships. Atlantis was able to hide from those wraith ships until they went away. (I think. I don't remember quite clearly) The point is, I think it's safe to say that subspace transmissions do not give away an exact location.

I forgot that wraith can communicate telepathically, so Atlantis would have to knock out the captured wraith(s) for the cloak plan to have a remote chance of succeeding.

AutumnDream
November 21st, 2007, 01:58 PM
Oh please, loss of life is hardly an issue with the Wraith.

Eheh heh heh.

Xaeden
November 21st, 2007, 02:31 PM
You have a point but it all relies on the assumption that the wraith will work together and not kill each other in an epic battle.
Also, I believe in the episode when a Goa'uld spy was attempting to destroy Atlantis, a subspace transmitter went off and was shut down a little too late, attracting the attention of wraith ships. Atlantis was able to hide from those wraith ships until they went away. (I think. I don't remember quite clearly) The point is, I think it's safe to say that subspace transmissions do not give away an exact location.

That was a distress beacon (which is a special kind of transmitter). It's designed to draw attention to your general location so you can be helped (there's no reason for it to be specific as you aren't going get very far from your original location if you needed to use in the first place). However, there's no way to tell if the technology is limited or if it's that way by design (thus meaning the Wraith's transmitters pinpoint your exact location where as Ancient distress beacons do not).

Anyway, what happened in that episode was, Atlantis cloaked and they dropped some rubble along with the transmitter on a beach to make it look like it washed up on shore after the attack. That way the Wraith would have no reason to suspect the city was still around. However, once the Wraith in "The Seer" broadcasted that Atlantis was on that planet, there would be no way the Wraith would leave until Atlantis was found (this time it's probably commonly known that they cloaked the city during the first attack given that Todd knew they could do that). And you can bet that knowing that their only hope for stopping the Asurans as quickly as possible is on Atlantis will make them work together. They have shown great ability to join together against a common enemy in past, but when they are by themselves they get themselves into trouble. They either fight amongst each other for resources or they fight for power (in this case Todd's reappearance seems to have threatened the status quo given his former stature) but they're not going to fight amongst themselves in the shadow of Atlantis. It's too important for various reasons and it's stupid even for the Wraith given that Atlantis can use its drones to finish them off when they are worn out.


I forgot that wraith can communicate telepathically, so Atlantis would have to knock out the captured wraith(s) for the cloak plan to have a remote chance of succeeding.

True and good catch.

Mitchell82
November 21st, 2007, 05:41 PM
The whole point of the alpha site would be to circumvent tricky scenarios like these.

Except they havent had time to rebuild one since the last one was destroyed.

Mattathias2.0
November 21st, 2007, 05:51 PM
I'm just so disappointed with Carter's poor military leadership. She got extremely lucky when the second ship attacked the first ship and wasn't working together with the first ship in order to attack and destroy Atlantis.

I actually had zero problems with how Carter handled things because we have yet to see any serious repercussions of such. Unlike the fiasco that was Michael, the CG Wraith was being honest and we now have the ability to begin stopping the Replicators (which is something I hold McKay responsible for).

I think the fact she didn't have the other ship destroyed shows just how strong a leader she is. If she had ordered Sheppard to fire, there is no telling how incredibly worse the situation would have gotten. Sometimes being trigger happy is not the route to go.

Avenger
November 23rd, 2007, 05:25 PM
Aye. If she had given the order to fire, it would have given up their position, which, at that time was only known to Todd's hive. The other had no idea Atlantis was there and they were not detecting any communications between the two ships.

Mitchell82
November 25th, 2007, 03:35 PM
Aye. If she had given the order to fire, it would have given up their position, which, at that time was only known to Todd's hive. The other had no idea Atlantis was there and they were not detecting any communications between the two ships.

Exactly. She had to weigh the pros and cons and it was a huge risk to take which is why she didn't do it.

wise one
November 27th, 2007, 08:14 AM
they wouldnt of got killed since there was 2 cloaked jumpers already there so they were waiting for shep and team to reach there

and wraith carry stunners, the only way would to feed on them but that takes time and effort.

being ambushed in a close proximity where 2 jumpers are would kill everyone even the stargate team since drones EXPLODE!!! that would wipe out a small area ....of grass lol

jenks
November 27th, 2007, 09:05 AM
Drones don't have to explode.

Mitchell82
November 29th, 2007, 01:26 PM
Drones don't have to explode.

Uh what? You fire drone and it explodes unless you shut it down. There wouldn't be enough time for that since they were so close.

jenks
November 29th, 2007, 03:01 PM
Uh what? You fire drone and it explodes unless you shut it down. There wouldn't be enough time for that since they were so close.

Drones just smash straight through stuff, I think it's more a case of mentally detonating them, instead of just not shutting down, because they don't just explode on impact.

Mitchell82
November 30th, 2007, 11:37 AM
Drones just smash straight through stuff, I think it's more a case of mentally detonating them, instead of just not shutting down, because they don't just explode on impact.

Hmm good point I think you're right.

SGFerrit
November 30th, 2007, 12:16 PM
I do think it was sheer luck the wraith ships decided to duke it out. Carter gave no reasoning (unless I simply forgot) why she said 'wait', except for the drama of the scene.

As she herself stated, it was a risk, a big one. But a risk she needed to take in order to ensure Atlantis remained a secret.

As was said in the episode, they checked the Wraith for tracking devices, and found none. They assumed it was safe to bring him to the city. They didn't expect that he had an unactivated tracking device, after they had already performed searches.

It's great that she takes risks like this, and doesn't just play it by the book.

SGFerrit
November 30th, 2007, 12:19 PM
and wraith carry stunners, the only way would to feed on them but that takes time and effort.

Exactly. The Wraith couldn't have killed the team before the Jumper's de-cloaked, they didn't have time.